Zooming In on Inspiring All Writers with Author Phaea Crede

Guest Phaea Crede, a neurodiverse picture book author, discusses her journey from struggling in school due to social discomfort and learning challenges to finding success in writing. She emphasizes the importance of embracing one's uniqueness and shares her writing process, which includes extensive research and list-making. Crede also highlights the challenges of balancing writing with a full-time job and the need for supportive feedback in nurturing young writers. The conversation highlights the benefits of diverse story generating methods, including improv and scripting, and the challenges of overcoming self-doubt in writing.  

Major Choice is a career mentorship program for students with and without disabilities. The program emphasizes personalized mentorship, self-exploration, and career exploration, aiming to help students find fulfilling careers. Educators and professionals are encouraged to become mentors or volunteers. https://www.majorchoice.com/home-page5pdqllzu62926234

Check out Drama Notebook: https://www.dramanotebook.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to the Teacher Us Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever-changing, and I hope with each season you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the seventh season of the Teacher Ad, and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoyed the Teacher Act, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It helps the podcast reach more educators. I'm happy to share that the career mentorship program Major Choice is now sponsoring the Teacher Ads Podcast. I'm thrilled about the partnership. You can learn more about becoming a mentor at majorchoice.com slash mentor. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

So my name is Bea Creed. I am a picture book author. So I wrote the words for picture books and other people, Amazing Illustrators, do the illustrations. I'm a neurodiverse writer of dyslexia and ADHD. And I like to write funny things that make other kids know that it's okay to be weird. And if you're not weird, it's okay to uh sometimes be weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

And appreciate weirdness. And appreciate weirdness, yes. Absolutely. So Faya came to our school and um did an amazing presentation. And we were laughing the entire time. And I said she must be on my podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

So your school's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Isn't it fun?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, the kids are great. There was, yeah, it was a the vibe was correct. I was so happy. It was a wonderful visit.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yeah, we're all weird. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

It's great. We all have our weirdness.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I do think everyone's a weirdo. And like whether that's the word you use or not, and like the more you hide it, the more unhappy you are. And I think the more you embrace it, the happier you are. So true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Engage weirdo. Okay, we're ready. So I don't know if you want to speak to your the neurodiversity, what it was like when you were in school. Um, you know, did you have teachers that were able to tap into your weirdness and and and get you, you know, being creative? And how was your school life?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

School life was tough. I really loved learning, but I'm very um socially uncomfortable around people. I'm I'm much better these days now that I've like reached middle age. But back when I was a kid, I felt very out of place. Um, and I knew that I I liked being a little, well, whoever I was, which was always seemed to be a little weird, a little, a little off-center, a little like I would say things and people would kind of go, what? Um, and I thought I was the only one who felt that way. And it turns out there's a lot of people that feel that way. But my you one tends to look back, I think, on their history and only see the negative. I'm sure there were some very supportive, positive experiences. My first grade teacher, Miss Griffin, was incredible, uh, very supportive. But I got this message through elementary school that if like my grammar wasn't correct, um, if I wasn't sort of like, you know, doing things correctly the first time, then it then I was doing it wrong. That was the message I got. I don't know if that was the intended message, but it felt really hard. I felt like my spelling, which has always been an issue, my grammar, which has always been an issue, um, like was something that made me not a good writer. And when I would get really enthusiastic about things, I'm a very enthusiastic person. Uh, that was really off-putting for a lot of teachers, quite frankly, at the time. So I felt like I was always walking this line of like wanting to sort of explore creativity and be a writer, performer, or whatever. Uh, but being told to sort of like be quiet, stop doing that, be, you know, close it down. I remember writing something I was really proud of in fourth grade. And I wrote, it was like they give you one sheet of paper, Melissa. You know what I mean? And then you're supposed to like do the bottom part. Maybe there's illustration at the top, and then there was like 10 lines, and I wrote so much, it like went over on the other side. I was so proud of it. And I remember my teacher didn't pick it to like be featured. Um, and rejection is a hard part of this business, but I was very upset. And I, I think probably looked like I had frustration tears, and my teacher took me aside, and and the message I got from her was you need you need to calm down. Like you can't act like this, like it's not appropriate. Instead of being like, Yeah, um, you didn't make it, you know, like there was like I didn't get a good message, so I got that really early on that I needed to uh stop not feel your feelings, right? Not feel my feelings, that what I was doing wasn't good enough anyway, so I might as well not do it. That's what I remember. Um and again, Melissa, I don't know if that's really what was happening or it's just the stuff that I was taking in.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

But this is what teachers are trying to avoid doing to students, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

It was hard, it was hard because I am um I've always been an emotional person. And in the 90s, that was not a good thing to be. Right. Um, I think nowadays it's a we're a lot more emotionally uh in touch with like people feel things, it's okay. Just like it, you know, that everybody's gonna process things and say that this the way they are, but I just created a lot of anger, resentment, and then like self-hatred for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Oh, wow. Yeah. How'd you get past that? I mean, did you just from seeing enough positive experiences and having enough positive or therapy? I mean, therapy's therapy's great.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah. Yeah. No, therapy, therapy is highly recommended. Uh, for me, I found a good college to go to. Um, it was Sarah Lawrence College, which was just like a liberal arts college for people that are a little weird. Um, and it said that in the title. It says, well, the motto is you're different and so are we. Oh, yeah, it was great. It was great. Um, I mean, it wasn't like uh, you know, learning has always been a challenge for me. Reading has always been a challenge for me. So college was not like perfect, but I got to be around a lot of other people who are emotional the same way, who are struggling the same way, who are still creating things. And that really got me over the sort of like, I'm not good enough hump.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

And I decided, you know, was when I was in my 20s that I was just gonna try to do some stuff. And I did. I did stand-up comedy for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

I did I can totally see that.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I can totally see that. I love stand-up. I just don't like being out at night, and so I didn't I couldn't figure out how to balance it.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

I need a daytime standard.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Yes. I need a daytime stand up. Yes. I need a brunch, I need to do drag brunch, but for stand-up, yeah. I so I I realized pretty quickly that like my performing life probably wasn't compatible. I did sketch comedy at the Upright Citizens Brigade for a while. Wow. Um, yeah, it was I had a really good time. Yes, it's the best. It's still there's still so much like the people that I met there are still like close friends, and they all end up doing, you know, I'm doing writing, other people are doing stuff in TV, other people are doing like poetry. Like it's everyone's got something that they're that they're doing. The creative field is like a choose your own adventure. But all that sort of created the background of like talk about discipline, like you know, having to memorize lines on the way to a show on the subway, like getting really fast at turning things around, writing sketches um that would get cut. Uh so not not like you have to like let go of stuff is not um is not good enough. It's not a self-reflection. Um, I got really tired of being like performing, it takes a lot out of me. It's just it just wasn't a good fit for me. And so I ended up auditioning to be on this show.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

SNL?

SPEAKER_02 7:33

No, I don't like SNL. Can I tell you? I think I'm too much of a comedy snob. Like and I also would never be that good. I came very close to being on Flight of the Concords, Melissa. Very close. I love that show. Yeah, me too. Yeah, but that's I think when I didn't get that part, I was like, maybe this is not for me. And that's okay. So I I auditioned to be on this show called Nintendo Week that was like a marketing show for Nintendo. It was a green screen comedy marketing show, and I didn't get cast on it, but they hired me to be the writer. And so that's really when my writing, my professional writing started. And that was very comfortable. It was hard. It was, you know, it was like fake TV production. So we'd be there, you know, late at night. Sometimes we'd be shooting all day with no air conditioning. And um, it was really, it was like a cheesy uh show for kids, essentially, but it was it was a really wonderful experience. And I finally was like, writing is something I can do. Sitting with myself, I can revise a million times. I can um, I don't mind killing my darlings, you know, when you write something and and it doesn't fit anymore, but you love it, but you have to get rid of it. I don't care. Like I got very good at doing that really quickly, and I think that is where I ended up today writing picture books. Um very same discipline.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

And it's funny because when you were presenting your book, Princess Royale. Princess Battle Royale. Battle Royale. Yes. Uh, which is hysterical. Thank you. Uh you're reading the book, and I'm picturing you at home like riffing. Like thinking, you know, here's a princess. Well, boop boop, boop doop. These are funny puns, and you know, all these different things. I could just I could see you like improving. And then when you set up right citizens brigade, I'm like, that totally makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

I mean, I think a lot of kids' books are like doing improv or doing like short form comedy writing because it it's so it's a premise. So like the Princess Baretta Royale premise is what if princesses were wrestlers and that's like all you have to go with, and then just kind of figuring out all the different funny angles that can take. Like if Rapunzel is hitting people with her hair, um, is Sleeping Beauty falling asleep? Is um Cinderella a ninja just because that sounds the same? And what does that make her in real life? So it's it's it was a lot of me writing down a billion puns, um, making huge lists of anything that sort of made me laugh, but also made sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Uh what was the I have to look it up. There was one with the swan, and then when she beat, I'm looking it up right now because I put it in my notes. I put in my notes because I was laughing out loud. It was yes, prima slammerina. Prima slammerina.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah, when I write something that's um, but that's that thank you. It's good and it's also stupid, and it's also it's weird sense and it's yes. So I the the amount of lists that I make, I'm definitely not like out loud, like like riffing, I riff with my fingers and I and I was like, okay, here's a bunch of ballet terms. And I think this is a good way to approach writing if you're kind of writer that's overwhelmed with ideas, is make a million lists. So what are all the ballet terms that I know? What are all the wrestling terms that I know? And then just play a game of connect, yeah, connect four. I love that. You know, I love that. It's a nice way to break out the sort of I want to do something funny, but like here's the first step is is that I live off of lists and and um in charts. Like, what is the I learned this early in my writing career at a conference, which is like you make a chart that says the first thing is like the the obvious choice to make in the story. The second thing is like the weirder choice, and the third thing is like a completely unrealistic, wacky choice. I used to do mild, medium, hot.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah. Oh, I love that. That could be used with kids. That totally goes. Yeah, what's usually in stories?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

What maybe could be a little different, what could be like totally wacker, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yes, and you could do that for every story beat. It's like they leave the house, and the obvious thing is they get the mail, and then the next thing is you know, a dog comes down the street and and they fall on their back and start riding away on the dog. And the third one is like the earth opens up and the mole people emerge, and I mean this, these are not great, but like it's really it takes the pressure off, I think, of making the story perfect, which I and I hate pressure, I hate pressure, so I need everything to be easy and fun when I'm writing.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So mild, medium, hot. I love I'm writing it down right now. I'm doing that with my kids on Monday.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

I think it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Takeaway teaching ideas for writing. I love it. I love it. Right. And that's true. That's the tricky thing, though, is a lot of the times we're like, you have to write a historical fiction story. It needs to be based in the late 1800s, relat related to Western expansion. So now it's like they can't make it a fantasy now. They can't make so within those boundaries though, what would be a mild, what would be a medium, what would be a hot, even though you've got those boundaries, you've got this premise.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

You could do it with dialogue too. Like what is Abra, what is the simple version of what Abraham Lincoln says in that moment? What is the like more uh frustrated version? What is the like hysterically laughing version? Yeah. See, like if that if something comes out of that. I think options are good.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

But that's it's so funny because I have not had a kid yet think of doing a comic, a comedic historical fiction Western expansion story. Because all we read to them, yeah, it's one is a survival story by the wonderful Caroline Star Rose called Maybe. Really good book. And the other is Away West, uh, which is an African-American boy who runs away because he wants to, you know, he doesn't want to be a farmer. And they're all kind of on the serious-ish side. Like we need to find a historical fiction book that's got some humor around that time. Or we need to model for them that, you know, it can be funny. You can put funny dialogue, etc. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I think that humor was funny because I think I was at your school talking to one of your students, maybe in a different class, and she was like, I only write sad stories. And I was like, that's really cool. Cause I I don't write sad stories, I can only write funny stories. Um and I thought that was really cool that she was like, that's how she liked to express herself and connect with her readers or connect with whatever part of her needed to read that story. And and I I think sad stories and serious stories really do create a connection. And but humor does the same thing. It sort of like creates a buffer between intense feelings, maybe, or something harder or like more emotional. And it sort of gives you an easy way into connecting with materials. Like, um, like I have this book called O'Dear, which is about a Sasquatch who's like really socially uncomfortable, like he really likes to be alone. He gets like he's an introvert, like a s like in and other people make him, other animals make him really uncomfortable. But the whole story, which is like a very intense situation that a lot of us live in. But the story is about him um building a turned up garden because he's so bored because he doesn't really have any friends, and these deer who are like the extroverts come in, destroy the garden, and he has to like keep trying to battle them. So it's very like um, it's formulaic in some ways. It's like he tries this, they defeat it. He tries this, they defeat it. But in but in the end, he figures out a balance between being around people and being alone, which is what he needs. So it's not like he's suddenly cured of his introversion. He's like, I like to be around people when I like it, and then I need to be alone. Um, which I thought was like, I can't believe I sold that book. It's a pretty that's there was a wacky one, but I was really proud because I do think there's a lot of introverts out here who have an extroverted side.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah. Nobody ever believes me when I say I'm an introvert. I know. And I'm like, I'm an introvert for one simple reason. If I'm around people a lot, I then need to go away. Yeah, don't take it personally, but I need to now drain. Like you have drained my energy. Like when I'm teaching all day, I can't I come home and I mean I mean, I am not always bubbly. I am yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Like the energy has been drained, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yes, and and but I think it's an appropriate place to spend your energy, which which is yeah, yeah. A lot of us need that downtime. Um and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

You can't find who you are, so might as well go rest, go lay down for a while. I love laying down.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Same. I do it sometimes a little too much.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Maybe not. Maybe it's just enough. Just a little procrastination. I'm just this is a little bit of so the writing process. So you mentioned the lists, which love, love, love, love. Um when you're starting to come up with the ideas. So you're playing Barbies with your daughter. You want to tell that whole thing and how it came from like, oh, this is funny, and how that morphed into I want to write about this.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yeah. And most of the ideas that I have, I think, are are stolen from real life, which I which I don't think is a bad tactic uh for writing.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Um, so this story, Princess Battle Royale, came to be because I was playing Barbies with my daughter, who was, I think, about five at the time. Um, we have a nice collection of Barbies that include some um, we have a RuPaul Barbie. We also have a bunch of princess Barbies. We have an old, like a vintage Wonder Woman Barbie. So it's like we got a really good collection.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

And so the the game was a fashion game at first, and then it devolved into a battle game where the Barbies were battling each other for, I think they were competing to be like the Queen's knight. That's what the game was. So whoever won the battle was gonna be the knight of the queen. Um, and I was battling with with the Rapunzel doll. Uh, and I love pro wrestling. I think I'm not like a super fan, but I really like whenever I watch clips, I'm very happy. I've seen a bunch of shows. Um and as I was playing with Rapunzel, I started noticing there's a like a lot of connections between a princess who's very glamorous, who has a very clear character, a very clear gimmick, um, and a wrestler who has like these big sparkly costumes, a very clear gimmick. Uh, and it suddenly hit me that this would be a really easy premise to just expand on um and to see like where I could take it and just play with it. So because of that, I just started coming up with what princesses did I want? Which ones made obvious wrestlers? Sleeping beauty feels like an obvious one simply because there's it's a thing called a sleeper hold that feels really easy to do. Um The Little Mermaid. Sorry, that's awesome. So that's all it takes. Yeah. Like, oh, the word is similar. Yeah. Um, I knew I wanted to do princesses that had stories that I that I could trace to like older than the Disney versions. Yes. Um, so not frozen, because I think that's like a reinterpretation of a different story. Um, and uh not Moana because it's the same thing. It's like we wouldn't know about that story necessarily if Disney didn't have it. So I went back to I tried to like do some research into like the old, old versions of fairy tales, which we know are very dark, um, which is very funny. Uh, and then just created a sort of like like what is the dream promotion of the princesses? And and I found some new ones like Kajuya, who's this amazing Japanese princess who uh was born on the moon and came to Earth, um, and then her parents wanted her to get married, and she was not interested in that. And so she eventually just went back to the to the moon. It's a very cool fairy tale. That is. Um, yeah, and I feel like that was well known enough that I wasn't sort of like stealing someone's culture to like benefit from my book. Like it's a it's a well-known story um in in like sort of pop culture realizations, which I felt important. I didn't want to like be bringing in princesses that no one had heard in America, and then suddenly I'm like introducing this thing. Um and then I found out that Princess Jasmine was originally called the Drulbador, um, in like the original stories of Aladdin, which is such a good name. And I went, I have a bunch of friends who speak Arabic, so I made sure I knew how to pronounce it correctly. And then um, so I did a lot of like research before I even sort of like sat down to write the book. Um, and the first version of the book was just the princesses battling each other with little red riding hood, wanting to battle um or wanting to wrestle, and them sort of saying, No, you're too small. And I sold the book like that. But then my editor, Anika, who's amazing, she's like, Um, you need a bad guy in this story. You need a heel. That's what wrestling is. There's like a heel. Yes. And it's it didn't even occur to me. It's so funny. This is why an editor is an amazing thing. This is why we I've heard people refer to them as book teachers, which I think is such a great thing. Because they just how to make the story better. Um but she was like, You need a bad guy. And so I I went back again and found uh Swan Princess, who is um obviously a real princess, pretty well known. Uh even if you're not into ballet, Swan Lake's a like a fairly well-known ballet. Yeah. And swans are really mean. Uh, if you run into them in real life, they will snap at you, but they're beautiful and glamorous, just like a wrestler. So that felt like a late edition that actually I think made the book huge. Um, yeah, it made me really happy. And then I could make that character as mean as I wanted. And I watched a lot of Randy Savage Macho Man videos to see how he would trash talk. Because he was he went between heel and face a lot in his career, but he's amazing at at trash talking. And so I would there's a couple of lines that I stole directly from him and put in the book, which I think, you know, eagle-eyed fans will notice. Um that's awesome. Yeah. Easter, Easter eggs, is that what they call them?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Yeah. It was a fun book to research. So research, research, research.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I mean, you're, you know, they say write what you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

But sometimes you only know a certain amount of certain things, and you gotta do that research. And with that research comes all these gems, obviously. Yes. Like as you're researching, I'm sure it's just like, oh, I could do this, oh, I could do that. And probably leads to more questions too.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

That's a really good way to put it. Yeah. I think it's like I always pretend that a story is real in my head, and I'm just trying to solve it. Like I'm a I'm the story's detective. Like I have to figure out what's logical and what fits and like how the story is gonna exist on its own. And I and and I do. Think research is a great way talking. You spoke about procrastination. I don't think it's a bad part of the process. Like, if I'm not inspired, I and I just want to like read some stuff online or go to the library, get a lot of kids' books on a subject because kids' books are written in like a simpler way that's easier to sort of like absorb. So quickly, yeah. Yeah, it's a great way to do research. Nonfiction children's books, picture books, it's it's awesome for all ages of research. But you can spend a long time doing that. And by the time you're ready to sit down and write, the story might be fully formed in your head because you've spent so much time sort of building the world. That's true. And I think the like write what you know uh is completely true. And it means specifically, if this is a world, if this is like um, you know, a world of wrestling or what you mentioned about the Western expansion, and you don't really know anything. What you do know is emotions and how people react to things and so brother-sister dynamics. Yes. So you can apply your own feelings and the things you've experienced into your characters. And that's like almost like a cheat. Like you don't have to even make anything up. You just like, how would I, if I was a person who was prone to anger, how would I feel in this situation? You think about when you've been angry and it's hard. It can be, it can be a um never-ending process, but the more you do it, the more it becomes uh second nature, I think, to sort of project your true emotions onto characters. Even when you write goofy stuff, like princesses who wrestle and like little red riding hood who turns into a werewolf. It still has to be a little emotionally resident, uh resonant, resident evil. No, resonance. Resonance evil. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

That's that's your next book, Resonance Evil. That's a really good idea.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I love puns. I love bad puns. I really want to write this book. It's never gonna happen. But there was this book. I work in my day job as in corporate. I work in tech. And there was this book. That's what it's great. It's fun. I write. So I'm like a UX writer. So it's it's a great job, but there's yeah, it's a corporate environment. And a million years ago, there was this really hot book that all managers were reading called Um Radical Candor, which is about like giving feedback. But I really want to write a book called Radical Condor, which is just like about like a really cool condor who's always telling it like it is and like it's insulting everybody. Oh, you have to write it. It's like it doesn't make any sense, Melissa. But I mean it does. Maybe I'll write it. Yeah, because it's so does.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

It's so funny. It's so dumb. And now you can do the whole California condor. Like, listen, we almost died out, people. Um, so this is the you know, we've been there. We've been there, though, though you totally have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Like fake empathy. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Oh my god. Really funny. That's where books come from. You have to do it. I'm working on one right now. Oh, working on, I've written one line of of where you know, you know, construction cones. Yes, you know, construction cones. Well, what if they're riches' hats? And like, what if when the construction project goes really badly, what you're like, oh no, we gotta pull in the the the depart the the department of public witches, and the witches sort of like come up from the ground with the hats on, and then they start. I'm like, that's like it makes so much sense to me. You know what I mean? I'm like, this makes sense. Oh my god. So I'm trying to figure that out in between some projects right now because I think that would be really funny. I think it would be really funny. And um and but but then there's also gnomes.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

You could have gnomes too. The gnomes too. The gnomes could be the little one, the subdivision, the little tiny cones, the subdivision of gnomes.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Ah, see, this is good. Brainstorming with people is helpful too. Well, actually, now do you ever do this with your students where the two kids sort of like brainstorm together on ideas? That's fun. Yeah, I mean, I I I'm so inspired.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

I'm so inspired. Oh, good. Um, so a couple things. Yes, you really should look to option royal princess battle royale as uh you know brought to you by the people who did Shrek. I mean because I mean you're sort of doing a Shrek kind of thing, you're bringing those well-known characters in. It needs to be an animated feature. I'm sorry. I love that. Because then you could do their backstories, yes, getting to the final battle.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Yes. And like who's who the expanded world? So if this is the Princess League, is there a wizard league? Is there a prince league? Is there like a um like who else exists in the world? I know I feel like I could go on and on.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I wish that I could or a series or a series, I think. But I don't even know how you start. Like, would you like to buy my idea? Like, how do you even well?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

The business side of it, I it's really funny because I've spent years being like, I'm just not gonna worry about it. I'm just gonna figure it out. And then I've reached a point now where I'm like, I really gotta start reading my contracts, I really gotta start like understanding what's happening. But you have an agent, right? I have a literary agent who's amazing. Yeah. And so it's very easy for me as the creator to just be like, she'll figure it out. And she does. Absolutely. But then I'm getting what's called writer for hire work right now, which is really fun. Where it's not my idea, but I like the I wrote a book with Disney called Stitch Crashes Disney, which is um that's a Disney character, but I was hired by them to write that book. Delightful, delicious, a totally different business model. So I'm getting more of those now because I'm an incredibly blessed, lucky person.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

But I I'm sure they pay well too. They pay the it the it's Disney's gonna pay well, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Um, maybe not. I'm I'm fine, I'm satisfied. I think it's great. I that's good. The whole there's not a lot of money in Kidlet. I think this is a really interesting thing. So it's like this is the there's a lot of debate happening right now because it is you have to be in a certain privileged position to be able to write a uh children's book. It's not full-time income. Um, from Kids Lit, I've made between zero dollars and thirty thousand dollars a year um in the late since yeah, since I've I've been starting. And I don't know, it's possible, Melissa, that I'm a sucker and then I'm underpaid. We don't know. I can't we can't know. Um, but that that's those are my rates. And so uh I know a lot of authors who like myself, I work full-time, you know, like I have a lovely full-time job. I actually really enjoy it. Um, but that's you know, 40 hours of my week. Plus, I have my babies who are uh oh my god, 13 and 10.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Uh so I I have, you know, a relationship I need to maintain with my loving spouse. A lot, like there's a lot of stuff going on. And then other people have a spouse who maybe works full-time and they're able to write. Um, and a lot of people, you know, I guess what I'm just saying is like to be able to participate in Kidlet, you most of us need to be in a place with pretty stable incomes, which cuts out a lot of people who should be able to write books and who should be able to be selling books. And um, that is it, it's uh it's a constant um issue that I think it's brought up more and more about how to get people the time, the space, uh, not just like gatekeeping, which totally exists, but also like if you are working full time, two jobs or something, um, there's no time, right? There's no time to write a book. And so like we're missing out on those people's stories. We're missing out on like so many stories.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Interesting. Yeah. Because, you know, I think again, like trying to encourage students to be writers. Like, I have some strong writers every year, and I'm I I always make sure that I go and talk with them specifically and say, you know, this is something you really, you know, could do.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Like for a living, like you're really good at this age, you know. I encourage all the kids, but I do try to make us like when you see those kids that are like OMG, yes, you want to get that voice in, and then the next teacher, and then the next teacher, and they start saying, I guess I am pretty good at this, you know. Uh but we're encouraging them to do something that they're barely gonna get by. But like you said, you're doing writing in other areas too. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I think my story is one example. Um, I think the if you're a creative person, um, there's always gonna be a certain level of hustle that you have to do to figure out gigs, to figure out like if you're a journalist, um that is that is a full-time job. And when you start out in your career, it's doesn't pay as much as it does at the end of the story, but like teaching all the jobs that are important don't pay enough. Um so I think that like happy teacher appreciation week, by the way. We just few teachers. Um uh so I think that it's like not to be discouraging because I believe that people have more hustle than me. And I believe there are kids who will find ways to make more money than than I have. Um, this is just the what the balance that's worked for me. Not that I'm gonna, not that I would be unhappy about making more money. Yep. Um, but there's always gonna be a lot of people who want to do something creative. And I think the key, if you're one of those people, is to uh not give up and figure out little ways to sort of keep moving forward in your career. There are people that will get $100,000 for a book advance. There are people who will become millionaires off their books, but they're not just like be just like being an actor. Like most working actors are not millionaires, but they're still working full-time. And it can be the same for writing. Um you just have to figure out what the balance is. Uh and I don't think the way that I'm doing it is bad. I like having a day job. I like um it's so in bar, it's like almost embarrassing to say, but I it works for me because I enjoy sort of like having that stability, doing like you using my brain in a creative way in a different way, and then leaving sort of creativity for the for the book writing too. It's a good balance for me. But you should always encourage, they're always gonna try to put the arts aside. Society is always gonna say you don't deserve to get paid for this. Like, so we have to like as artists fight, I think, no matter what we're doing, um, to get recognized, to get paid. And and and those writers of in your class can figure out a way to make a living out of. They will, they just have to try.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

So uh shifting gears to go back a little bit, the stand-up comedy. I've always said, you know, the beats of a lesson, the be, you know, like or a d delivery. You don't have to be a stand-up comedian or an actress, but there's just some basic things. And then I always wanted to do an episode on my own, but uh maybe it's better just having you talk about it about the Herald. Oh, yes, and the other structures that improv has and how you could relate that to a lesson, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

It's so interesting because I I used to early in my life, I taught there was like a writing program at Sora Sarah Lawrence that I got to do the summer program of for for teens, and my class was the stand-up class. And what we did, um it's for for joke writing, I think the classic version is like the setup and the punchline. So you set something up, seems like it's going in one direction, and then you twist on it and do something surprising, which is a which is a great structure. Uh the stand-up comedy is it's so much about sort of like what what's the topic, what's the premise, the same as like, you know, writing a book, and then just figuring out how many different opinions, angles, ironies, relatable content you can come up with. This is how I approached it too. And I'm not, I was not like a brilliant stand-up comedian, but I would get um, I think it was a tape recorder back in the day, Melissa. Yeah, I believe I would, yeah. And now you could just use your phone. What a what a lovely time we live in. Um, and think of some premise that was like, I can't think of anything, like houseplants, and then just challenge myself and my students to just sort of like riff into the microphone about house plants, about anything they could think of, like getting it sort of like every idea out.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Um like when you're talking to them, yeah. Are they ignoring you? Like, like that's or are they actually listening?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah, you just yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

And so it just sort of creates this this space to figure out like what are the what are my different opinions about it? Like what are like what are things that that seems silly, like what direction I can take it in. So it could be.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

And is that also the mild, medium, hot? I mean, it's mild would be what you're expecting.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

And then hot would be that turn part, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Yes. I think once you do that, you could take that recording and probably the the the the um what's it called when they write the words down? The transcript. Yes. And throw out the stuff you don't want. You can put the ones in the in the mild, the medium, the hot category. Um, I guess I'm very like, I like to build things up from little pieces. Not everyone is like this, but this just works for me. But that's I think a good way to do it. And the in the Herald was like, so Herald is this is so funny to to me, because I I have such a hard time. I'm terrible at improv, like horrible at it. I love watching great improv, but I'm so bad at improv that I like at a certain point, I was like, I can't, I can't. Improv is the worst. It's not, I'm just not good at it. But so the Herald is a long form improv exercise where you get um the team gets an idea from the audience usually, and then they riff off that idea. So every single sketch that they do, every scene that they do, um, is based on a different element of the idea. So God, houseplants is so boring. But if it's like someone's like, houseplants, then the first game might be, you know, if the houseplant um is dying and then they see the humans bring in more houseplants, and then the houseplants are, I don't know, coming together to like rebel against the humans or something. Um but the premise of that little scene, the same as the book, the same as a joke, is like, you know, what what happens when houseplants rebel? So the scene explores like all the different ways that that could happen. Um so it's like it is kind of the same. To me, it's the same thing. It's like, what's the game? Yeah, what is funny, and how many times can you hit that that joke or that premise um in a satisfying way through the book, through the joke, through the improvised scene. It's very similar.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yeah. It's because I mean, the setup in a lesson obviously is like the anticipatory set, you know, the hook.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

But also I think I just I've always wondered whether there's a way to make a lesson more entertaining that way by using that structure. Or you know, uh I also love like I just think of like Michael Shea and Colin Host, Joast. I mean, and they just they just put up the news story, they just show a visual. And then you know that in the writing room they probably said, here's the news story, go. And then they're all giving ideas.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

So how can we get that that process, you know?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

I think there's a couple different ways that that I think could be really fun. One is this, it's a game, I think, where you you have like the the kid will get in front of the class and somebody gives the kid a topic, and the kid has to talk about the topic even if they know nothing about it. Like they have to talk about it for two minutes. And if they know something about it, great, but if not, they just have to make it up, which I think is really funny. And then, cause then you have to use your imagination in a in an instant way without judgment. Um, I think that's a really good idea. I also think that like you could pull news stories up or you could pull um a picture up or memes. Sometimes I use memes, the babies respond, like I'm so old, but like, you know, pulling I I pulled up the wet owl, I think, at your school to like make into a wrestler. The babies love the wet owl because we all sort of know what it is. I call everybody a baby. That's not patronizing. It is patronizing. Everybody under 18 is a baby. We don't know why. I have I have linked with the babies. The babies. But if you, if you, if you bring like something like that that's sort of well known with all of them, and then have everybody sort of write down like the backstory of the wet owl, or like or or riff as a group. So writers' rooms, uh, I've been in one for Nintendo week. It was very, it was very small, it was very like, it was very different. But basically, if we when there was a new um game that came out, like uh Mario Kart 8 or something, we would all sit around and pitch different ways to cover the game. So that could be something really fun too, where it's like, here's a topic, and and in a circle, everyone sort of like says, Well, we could do this story about this, and someone's like, Oh, well, we could do on top of that, we could do this and sort of build together. Um, in an open space where no one's like, that's a bad idea. Um, because you have to say yes in a brainstorm. Even if the even if the ideas make no sense, um, I think it would be good and you could write down all their ideas on the board.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yeah. I'm just realizing we did this yesterday or two days ago. We did a writer's room. That's good. Yeah. So basically, our toad, our we had tadpoles, and we have one that's a full-on toad. So we had to give him a new little terrarium area, um, a little bit of water. And we're like, all right, let's name the toad. And so we had had conversations. I'm like, they're probably not, he's not probably not gonna live very long. If we put him out in the wild, he'd probably get eaten. You know, we've had all these discussions. So one kid raised his hand and he said, Snack. I mean, that's pretty clever. And then and then another kid said, unsinkable Molly. Love that. Oh, right. So like reference. Some of the kids were getting really like, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

I love that. You could do the same thing, but like, what what does Snack do at night when no one's looking? You could like have everybody sort of come up with little stories about doing that.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Well, we ended up we ended up voting because they I had this huge brainstorm list.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

We voted, and it's he's his name is Gary Duh Toad. That's very good.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yes, that's very good. A dignified name for a toad. I think that's very good. And then there's all the other toads. It's like a whole family.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Yes. There's cohesion. Yes. I love that. So that I mean, that was kind of a little bit because some of the kids, some of the kids were serious, but some of the kids were kind of riffing and doing that little humor thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

I think that's nice. And I think that you can, if you do it as a story, the benefit is that no one wins at the end. You know, like no, there's no like one winning name. So it's like everybody has their own little versions of it and they're all valid and wonderful. And you can, if two kids have uh or seem to be like vibing, they could work together, I'm sure. Um, I find working with people uh to be very challenging. Like to co-write stuff is very hard. I bet. Yeah. So I think it's if people can do it, I I admire that. My husband is a wonderful writer, and every time we try to collaborate, I'm like, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Yeah, you gotta find the right, you gotta find the right match.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

And I mean, I'm assuming probably the right match is either you both think the same way, even though you have different ideas, or you're completely opposite and yes, complement.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

This is one thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

I think opposite is better, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

I think opposite can be good, and I think a really fun way to do this, it's almost like the the oh god, the the game where you draw the thing and then somebody draws the torso, and so there's this this old show. This is so random, but there's this BBC show called The Young Ones that was on in the 80s, and I was obsessed with it because it was like a comedy show about college kids, uh, and there would always be like a band in it, and they were they were a mess, and they were like always setting things on fire. It was very funny, but I never figured out why the chaos of it like appealed to me so much. And then I learned that the process for writing each script was Rick Mayall, which was one of who was one of the writers and actors, would write part of the script and then he would give it to oh god, Ben Edman, maybe and they and they would write, he would write the second half without con without like any collaboration between the two. And I was like, that is so brilliant, and you have to let go of a lot of control in that way. But I think that's fair. I think it's a really cool half the class start story, then they have to hand it.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yes, and someone else No talking, nothing. Here you go, finish the story.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

And you have to be serious about it. I think that's like important. Like they were very serious about making a good comedy show. Yeah, um, but yeah, I always thought that was such a brilliant thing. And I am doing that, yeah. It's called the Young Ones, it's very inappropriate. Um, but it is so you know, if you're a comedy nerd, yeah. If you're a comedy nerd, then then um, yeah, god, it was in the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I mean, flight of the Concords. Oh my god. The best. Oh my god. Like that's a name drop right there.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yes. Okay. So uh it was Ben Elton who who Rick Mayal would write half of it. Rick and Lisa Mayer, I think, would write their half, and then Elton. I don't know. I just thought it was such a I've never heard of anyone else doing it that way. And um, and I'm sure there was like some kind of revision process, but right, then they come together and yeah, but uh but the shows were um very enjoyable, very chaotic, very violent, very hilarious. Um very violent, very violent, yes. Um, I'm gonna have to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Um so you know, top tips to avoid discouraging writers. It's always like top tips for encouraging. Top tips to avoid discouraging writers.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

So when we go when you do critique groups with each other, my my uh my author friends and I we're always very careful to say all the things well, I guess in a critique you're asking for feedback. So it may be like a little bit different. Um, so maybe make sure that they are in the space for uh Getting feedback. Like, do you just want me to read this and s and say what I like? Or are you in a space where you want feedback as well? So, like, because you have to be in the right mindset as a young writer, because it is very easy to get discouraged. But the the classic formula is the uh, well, the shit sandwich, as we say. So you start off with all the stuff that's good and be honest about it, you know? And then the stuff that like could work better. And then this, and then end with positives again. Right. I think and and remind the kids that the goal that all in all like feedback is always just um uh well it's hard. Well when you're a teacher, it's it's different. I'm not sure what like some of the stuff you say is actually like you do need to add up, period. You do need to like um although grammatically editing, I mean more like editing the creative process. Good.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

But yeah, you know what? Maybe start the story here. You don't have to start the story with him waking up. Yes, you don't have to do the whole day. Yeah, you start the story here, like that kind of feedback.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah. I think that's that is the the softest way to do it is to like just start off with praise and then be like, here's some ideas that that you may want to consider, and then make it sort of just make it softer. I think some people don't have an ego in their writing, but a lot of us are very we're you know, when we're young, we're very attached to what we're doing. And it can Yeah, they think they're done. They think they're done. Yes, yeah. That's the other thing, is like, oh, it's done. So maybe like, do you have never done? Never done. Do you have like a like a like things need to be revised like probably two to three times? Like, is that a set? Yeah, so that's good. I think setting that up is important.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

We've had authors, like I've had authors zoom in and stuff, and I I asked them to show oh yeah, the red marks and the and the revision and say how long did it take you to write this book? Like, you know, some people are like six years, like they, you know, they had to put it away, work on something else, come back to it. All of that.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Writing takes a long time. Yeah. Not just because it's hard, but because it's emotional too. And there's sometimes when I've gotten so mad at a story or like mad at feedback, maybe that that I know is right, that I do have to take a break. I have to step away. Yeah. Because writing when you're mad is unless you're writing something mad, in which case it's a great uh setup. But like like this week, God, I was really exhausted on Thursday and I needed to spend a couple hours working on something. And I could I couldn't do it. I was so mad and angry and worn out. And um, and it's due, you know, May 1st. So it's like or is it May now? Wait. Okay, June 1st. It's due June 1st. Yeah. So it's due soon. Yeah. I could not work on it. And I instead of beating myself up over it, I just was like, fine, you're not gonna work on it. And then tomorrow you'll you'll be in a better brain space, likely, and then you can do it then. And then Friday I woke up and I was like, I'm in a better uh brain space. And I just pounded out like all six chapters because I sort of like listened to my own rhythm. It's harder when you're in school because stuff is due. It is true. So you have to like it.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

But in elementary, it's it's usually okay to say, you know what, let's put this aside for today. Yeah. Professional writing. Think about it overnight. Think about it, think about what you might want to do. And yeah, come back in the morning and work.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Yeah. And remember that, like, the way that I convince myself a lot of times is I mean, having a grade definitely helped me back in the day. I loved it, A, but I like to think of like the story as something that I'm sort of serving. Like the story exists, I'm trying to help it. So it takes me out of the equation. It puts it more on like, how can I make the story the best that that it can be so that it can live on its own and exist. Um, what a cool way of thinking of it. It's easier because then it's not so personal.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

I as the writer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

It's not my words, it's the story's words, and I'm just curating it. Anything to do to trade.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

That's a great, that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah. It really helps because I think everybody's got their own little quirks and stuff. And, you know, back when I was trying to write in in upper middle school, upper elementary school and upper middle school, it was this was like, I was so insecure and so unhappy that like anything I wrote, anytime I opened myself up to do this thing, it was very important to me. And I didn't know how important it was. So um, I mean, I still I still remember this time. It was in middle school and I'd written something I was really happy with. And my mom, who's a great writer, she gave me notes. She was like, I I like I Melissa, I don't even remember what the note was. So she was like, Well, what if this, this, this doesn't quite make sense or something? And I literally gave up on writing for like two years because I was so mad about it. I'm so mad about it. But that's a personal problem. I don't know that anybody can really help Faya in that situation except Feya. But um sometimes it is, it's not just about the words, it's about something that's like deeper. Um, in which case, yeah, letting people have their space, letting students like be mad is probably a valid thing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yes. Needing to take a break from the story, be mad. Be mad. Try to take yourself, like I think framing when you're you know, we we had these historical fiction stories that the kids are working on. I maybe starting that whole process with saying there's the story that needs to be told by you.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

I love that. I love that that'll resonate with some kids.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

That will definitely, and you've gotta help it along and da-da-da. And it's in you and it has to come out. There's the story, and like you said, the story needs this, the story needs that. Yeah, that I love that framing.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

It's nice because I guess it also sort of suggests that there's like an endpoint, but there's never an endpoint, which I actually hate. I personally like I will say this like about the creative process. I hate that it could always be revised and made better. That's it's so frustrating to me. So it is a living grieving thing. In corporate, we call it a living document. When it's published, it's done. Although I have heard about people, you know, rewriting stuff and republishing it. And I'm like, this when in the 90s, when um it when Star Wars the episode one was coming out, and George Lucas re-edited all the old Star Wars movies.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Um, he edited all those horrible uh like effects that look bad. He changed the motivation of Han Solo um in Greedo. And I am still upset about that.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

I have trauma over that.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Trauma because the story was the story was living, the story existed. We loved it. Like, how dare you?

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

How dare you?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

So I get very I get Leave a Good Thing Alone, people leave a good thing alone, it's all about money. It's all about money, yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Uh uh, yeah, but but it is good to always know that you can make changes, you can make the story different. Maybe it's not even about being better, but it's about it's being different. It's being different and speaking to somebody else in a different um mood or something. But it's also okay to finally like leave things and be like, this is this is it. This is the story like a person can just be like, I'm just gonna chill right now.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah. So do you do planning, skeleton of the story, all that ahead of time? I do. And then what do you do when there's writers' block, like you said, you just kind of leave it for a day or so? Yeah, you just take a break. Okay. So the planning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

So the planning, it's funny. I'll do let me just do a quick diversion, which is that um I do think we my two of my author friends, Carrie Percival, um, and Carol Esker and I did a presentation a couple times about how to get reluctant writers to write using different techniques.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

I'm a plotter, so I plan everything out, and I'll I'll talk about that in a second. Carol is a pantser by the seat of her pants writer. Right. She can only write by sitting down and just like letting it all go. Um so those are two different yes. And who knows which one your students are, you know what I mean? And then Carrie Percival is a visual person, so she gets a lot of objects, she gets a lot of um, she does drawings first, she does um, she goes out in nature and touches things, and um, and that's how she gets into her processes. So each of those were are three different techniques that I think depending on how your kid likes to write, those are completely valid ways to go about it. Um plotters like me, when I have an idea, I like will start a new document, I'll put the title on the document, I will um like list I will make a bad summary of what I think I want the story to be. So it's like I'm trying to think of like what so I have this book called Super Pizza and Kid Kale, where it was like a piece of pizza and a piece of kale that get turned into superheroes, um, and then they have to like try to defend the school. So I was like, that's the premise. And I'm like, and and the idea of having a pizza versus a vegetable, I was like, oh, the vegetables don't exist. Have you read that book? There's no such thing as vegetables by Kyle Luckoff. It's so good. So anyway, I was like, the pizza's obviously gonna be more popular than the kale. So that's like sort of that's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

That's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Yeah. So the summary was like, you know, what happens when two pieces of food become heroes and one is more popular than the other? That's where I start out. And then the lists come in, Melissa. Then I'm like, every single thing, oh, what what I felt like when I was a kid when I had a friend who was more popular than the new. Oh, okay. Um but lists, not like a beginning, middle, and problem solution. I have to do nothing because if if I um if I get too far into like trying to create the story without having all the elements with all the Lego pieces, I get stuck.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

So I built huge lists of pizza puns, of like food references, of kale puns, of of superhero like um cliches and stuff. And then from that, um I I break down all of my stories into the intro. So, like, how quickly can I get into the story? 70 words is what I aim for.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Um, and then what is the inciting incident? Like what happens that kicks off the story, and then act one, act two, act three. And like I write it out like a skeleton.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

After done, yeah, because all that stuff's going in your head and it's all working around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh that teachers, that's the takeaway from this episode.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Is before you do that graphic organizer, they have a little idea and then lists of things that are related to that idea, everything they can think of. Yeah. That's, I think that's opening your brain to get ready to tell the story. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Because then you don't get stuck in one way of telling the story. And you still like, I do love a graphic organizer. I don't, that's a phrase that I've heard so many times and I didn't know what it was. And so that I love that. But I need it. I need to know, like, okay, what's happening? Um, I'm trying to write something longer right now. And so every single chapter, I go, what what starts, what happens in the beginning of this chapter, and how does this chapter end? Like what changes in this chapter? So like we start off with this person feeling like this, and they end with this person feeling like that. So that I have something to go into and be creative within the skeleton. And skeletons can take many different forms. But with picture books, it's it's nice to be like intro, act one, act two, act three. And then the most of the book should be in the center, the section, the second section is all the action, um, all the things that like this is the promise of the premise. So my premise is, you know, whatever it is. It's this, it's a piece of pizza and a pizza of kale battling for dominance in a school or something. So act two is all the fun I can have with that idea. Super pizza not doing any work, kid kale doing all the work and getting like, you know, tossed aside, elevating that concept. Like it's it's just the same as comedy. It's like the idea needs to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until you know, kid kale is suddenly trashing the school because they're so mad. Um, which is not exactly how the book ended up, but that's what the process was when I was writing it.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

No, that that's gold right there.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Nice. I'm happy. Because I do think writing can be there's a great book for screenwriters called Save the Cat, which is like, here's how to write a screenplay, here's what happens in what part. And I use that a lot when I'm writing even picture books because it's the same kind of emotional beats. Save the cat.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Save the cat, yeah. Okay. I unfortunately I think it's not helping me at all when I go to write, but I took the Robert McGee.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

I too. I somebody paid for me to. He's like you better not use voiceover. I know. He's he I'm trying to find. Oh, here's my folder. Here's all my notes from McKee. Do you have your Casablanca?

SPEAKER_00 56:49

Was he doing Casablanca when he did? We did Casablanca.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

We have nothing in his folder.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

All day dissecting Casablanca, why it's the best movie ever.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

I know I I sweated through that. I talked so much. I learned so much.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

I'm like, just don't look at me, don't call on me. Yeah. Because I was horrified.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

This is not okay. I have a folder here that's called McKee, but it doesn't have any McKee information in it. But yeah, no, it was that was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

But yeah, I think he was insane. Mine was a two-day. What was yours?

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Mine was a three-day, and I skipped the second day.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

No, it was a four-day.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Oh, I skipped one of them because I couldn't take it. It was so hard. He was, but I think the the basic thing, you don't have it. The basic thing to get out of that is every scene has to move the yeah, and has to move the story over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

And I think that's huge. That's huge. You know, if that's like the that's the baseline of it, then that's important because um you want you want the story to be like just like a joke, just like a a sketch. Like there has to be a point of view, and there has to be the character has to change a little bit. And and uh without that, then there's there is no reason for the story.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Right, right. I had Caroline Star Rose on, and she's like she's like kids, because she she actually zoomed with us. She says you need to put your character in pain. You need to be mean to your character. So just know that that's good writing. You have to be mean to your character. So that's like every time I talk to an author, it's a different gem. I should put all those gems together.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

That'd be a great book. Yeah. You could you could produce that pub publish that book and teachers would love it. It'd be great. Because I do think there's it is true. Like, even with my books, like the most somebody's gonna get is like, you know, um a pile driver or like, you know, like well, my first book, like Jet the Cat is not a cat. She's a cat that likes to swim, and other animals tell her she can't really be a cat. So she gets really hurt emotionally. But it but she but she figures out a way out of it because she defines what being a cat is for her. So like the hurt doesn't have to be. I'm very resistant to hurt my characters, so I guess is what I'm saying. But you can do it in ways that are not devastating that still tell a good story. Yep. But it's right, they have to go through something, otherwise, no story.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

There's no story. Yeah. And for those kids, like if you're saying historical fiction story and they put humor in it, yeah, you better let them keep that humor in there as long as it fits the the setting.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Yes, as long as it's not mean. Although who might who am I to uh say people can't be mean? People people can do that's a great thing about writing. If I don't like it, I won't read it. Right. But you can do whatever you want, and I think that's good.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Yeah, humor helps. The other thing that helped with the historical fiction writing, that I don't know if you do this either. You mentioned you, you know, get picture books, which I think is a great idea, like kids' nonfiction, like a quick way to learn something without having to be like reading 700 pages. But when we were ready to write the historical fiction, I'm like, they don't I don't think they have a vision of what like a town looked like, what the school so we watched Little House on the Prairie. I love that. And there's a lot of humor in that. Yeah, there's a lot of joking between the dad and the girls, and and they were la there was laughter and everything. And I should have I'm so mad at myself. I'm like, yes, historical fiction can have humor in it. I should have I didn't even think about it. I think you're doing a really good job.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

I don't think you should beat yourself up for because I you can't get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

But Monday morning, I'm gonna say, yeah. If you've got your c characters in a situation and you think you're something comes into your brain that's funny, don't don't shut it down. Put it on paper, we'll see if it works for the cultural setting. Blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

I love that. Yeah. I love that. I think that's uh it is funny because I can't think of humorous. I don't read a lot of um like non-fit. Yeah, I I really don't. I do love, oh my gosh, my favorite book. It's a little great book called The War That Saved My Life. Oh, which is the best book that's ever written. Yeah, so good. Not funny, not funny, but it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

There's one. It's called, I highly recommend it. Talk about chapters.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

It's called By the Great Horn Spoon. It's by either Paul or Sid Fleischman. So by the Great Horn, by the way, my maiden name was Fleischman. I love that. Spelled differently. But it's about the gold rush. Oh, cool. Yep, it's about the gold rush. It's about a kid and his butler going right. There is so much, number one, there's so much humor in the story. Yeah. And now I'm kicking myself because that should have been a read aloud instead of just doing it with one group, one reading group. If that's a read aloud before we start historical fiction, it would give the kids the license and they could say, I could make it funny. Every so there's obviously a through line A story. Yeah. But then every chapter has a new issue that's solved by the end of the chapter.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

It's great. It's a great it's a great blueprint. Yeah. It sounds really good. Uh-huh. It's great. You should get it. It looks it's reminding me of um those uh the PG uh uh Woodhouse books. Is that their name? Is that name? Yeah, the the Butler and the um like such a so the butler is praiseworthy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Praiseworthy. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

And um Jeeves and Worcester, those books. Jeeves and Worcester. Very funny. Historical. Yeah. Different country, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Literally writing myself like humor. I'm like, I need to gather together some historical fiction that has humor. I love that. Why would we pigeonhole them into just reading these serious books? Like, well, we'll still read the series books, but let's throw in by the Great Horn Spoon, which is also Westward expansion stuff. Yeah. It's the gold rush. I'm so inspired. I knew I would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

I think that would speak to me as a kid. That would be a really great entry point into this because I do there are kids like me, kids. I'm 44. There are people like me that like do need that humor to like understand uh, you know, I think that's brilliant. I don't want just one tone in my books.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah. I also the other thing, I said you have to decide who you are as a reader and what you like, what style you like. Like, I don't like 20 pages of describing the setting. Just please get into the story. So that's how I write. Yes. I don't wait around to get into the story. And so that's how I teach sometimes is I say, why are you talking about him waking up, brushing his teeth? Like, where does the story actually start? And it I push them to do that, but they might want to just keep all that. But that's not him brushing his teeth isn't moving the story ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

No, it is it's in in at the UCB, they would say start the scene in the middle, which I always thought was a good, a good reminder.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Because you can tell who the character is without being like, they woke up, they brushed their teeth. But we all want to do it. It's funny, the first impulse is always like the alarm went off. Like every single time. It's it's such a common, it's such a common thing. So, like, uh, I don't know what that is. Maybe it's just because it's like building into the rhythm. But yeah, you can even write all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Exactly. And that's basically what's happening is they're, you know, they're talking about going on on the Oregon Trail. And I'm like, uh uh, dude, this is a short story. Yeah. So you gotta figure out what couple days within that Oregon Trail is your story gonna be about? Like, gotta or do some leap aheads or do some flashbacks, or you know, that's of course Robert McKee hates the flashbacks.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

Bless his heart. He is a purist, he's an intense man, and I gotta I love him. I love him. I'm remembering the sweat. That was great. I did. So funny. Brian Cox was funny, incredible. Yeah, I saw, yeah, he was it was really funny. I remember he would always be like, once again, I cannot comment on your work. Stop coming to the stage and asking me to comment on your work. Oh, what I was gonna say is at a conference once I went to a thing where we looked at the first line of a bunch of books. This showed like a good way to get into stories. I'm sure it's you can do with short stories too, but just like seeing the example we used was uh, or the example we kept looking at was um uh oh god, Charlotte's Webb. And like how that starts in the middle of the scene, in the middle of the action. And a lot of stories start like, you know, first lines, first lines can be a really good exercise to work on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

It's uh I it's a good reminder for me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Yeah, and then deciding I don't know if picture books is as important, but deciding is this gonna be the narrator telling the story or one of the characters telling the story. That's a huge decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:57

It's hard. Yeah, I think it's in picture books. It's mostly third person, you know, but there's definitely choices and and really neat books that do not only first, but I've seen some great ones that do second, where they're talking to the to the the the reader, which I think is really tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

That's more just like choose your own adventure books, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

There's a there's a book called Robo. What is that book called? It's like Robo Boy or something. That's probably not what it's called. Um the narrator's talking to the character in the book. So that's like the it's like a it's like a that's not what it's called. Wow, robot boy, no, Robo, Robo picture book. Oh, it's a picture book. That would be a good thing. It's a picture book, yes. Oh, I read his picture box. No, for the whole novel, for sure. That would be wild. But I think but it it can be done.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

It can be done in like Yeah. That those choose your own adventure ones are great though. They're great. Because that that gives them a little bit of idea of what second person is.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

If you really want to torment your kids, you could have them rewrite one paragraph in third, in first, in close third, which is something I learned at a conference where it's like where you just you really it's still third person, but you're talking about what the character's feeling more. You're just sort of closer to their emotions, whereas third is more like sort of zoomed out a little bit. Do you mean like the character's internal thinking? Yes, the character's internal thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So those are like like three different ways. Sometimes it's helpful to like to like try it in first, even if it's just trying it in first, trying it in third, and seeing which one and third is better, you know, trying to explain to the kids if it's in third person, you can't say anything about the other characters unless your character is seeing it, hearing it, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Yeah. Whereas third person, it's called omniscient. Like, I'm explaining this to them. Like, you can say how this character's thinking with that. And yes, and then like you have to decide what you want. And they love the voice of first person. Most of them choose that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

Oh, really? I found that so intimate, it freaks me out. Isn't that so interesting? They love it. They love it. That's great. Because a lot of the books now, a lot of the books now are written there. Or first person. My gosh, you could just have the monologue as the character, bring some acting exercises in. Yeah. Because if they, if it's already in first, my gosh, that's so fun. You could, oh my gosh, Melissa, what if you tell them in the character to talk about something at the time? You'd be like, Well, what do you think about your your carriage broke down? Tell us how you think about it and like make the monologue about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

No, I do all that. I'm I was a theater I was a theater minor. So, well, I was a theater major and then I switched to education. So um, but I have a drama club too. And yeah, again, neurodivergent. Um, and uh it's interesting to see like what you were talking about, improv. Yeah, you know, and then the kids that can script things beautifully, but they're improv. They're just not it's there's different, there's different, I don't know, modalities, there's different ways that you can express that humor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

Yes, yeah. And they're and they're all valid. And I think that's um it's so nice to have so many like talk about choose your own adventure, like so many different ways to figure out how to create that story.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

I love that. I I've always been a wannabe writer. So doing these episodes, it's just like this this is my thing. I'm just gonna I'm not gonna I'll probably never write anything and publish anything, but I'm gonna be publishing podcasts and sharing authors who can give tips to teachers about teaching writing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

It's a huge contribution. That's an incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Huge contribution. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

You are you are you are but if you ever want to write and you need a critique partner or advice or whatever, I'm here because it is appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

We do it together. Eventually, when I retire, yeah, I might think about it. Good. It's fun and horrible, but I love it. Yeah, I do, I do think because I I think I would just beat myself up.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

Yes, that part is the hardest part to get rid of imposter syndrome. You have to like when the voice comes in, because sometimes when I'm sitting and writing, the voice is like, well, that's not very good, but that's blah, blah, blah. And over years of time, you you learn to go, oh, thank you so much for your contribution, but I'm I'm not gonna listen to you. And then the voice gets quieter and quieter. And that's something I talk to the kids about as well. Yeah. It's really hard. Yeah, it's really hard. Being a human is very hard, but that makes us good writers. It's true. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

Well, thank you so much. Uh, I really, really appreciate you taking time out to talk to me, and our listeners are getting, I'm sure, got so much from it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

This was lovely. Thank you so much for inviting me, Melissa. It was great to meet you at the school event. And hopefully this won't be the last time our our paths cross.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

I hope not. For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.teteachure.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram at Melissa B. Milner, and I hope you check out the Teacher Az Facebook page for episode updates. This podcast is sponsored by the Career Mentorship Program Major Choice. You can learn more about becoming a mentor at majorchoice.comslash mentor. Thanks for listening, and that's a wrap.