The Teacher As Nervous System Expert with Chris Mukiibi

Chris Mukiibi, a high school chemistry teacher, discusses his approach to classroom behavior management through a nervous system perspective. He emphasizes the importance of evoking growth emotions (curiosity, safety, play) over survival emotions (fear, rage, panic) to foster a cooperative learning environment. Mukiibi shares strategies for managing behavior, such as using visuals and faster feedback loops. He also highlights the significance of understanding the emotional states of students (safety, stress, survival) and tailoring responses accordingly. 

Major Choice is a career mentorship program for students with and without disabilities. The program emphasizes personalized mentorship, self-exploration, and career exploration, aiming to help students find fulfilling careers. Educators and professionals are encouraged to become mentors or volunteers. https://www.majorchoice.com/home-page5pdqllzu62926234

Check out Drama Notebook: https://www.dramanotebook.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to the Teacher Ads Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever-changing, and I hope with each season you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the seventh season of the Teacher Ads, and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoyed the Teacher Ads, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It helps the podcast reach more educators. I'm happy to share that the career mentorship program Major Choice is now sponsoring the Teacher Ads Podcast. I'm thrilled about the partnership. You can learn more about becoming a mentor at majorchoice.com slash mentor. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Yeah, so my name is uh Christopher Mu Kibi. Um the first question I often get is how to say my last name. Uh it's Moo Kibi. Like I always put three emojis on the first day of school. It's a cow, a key, and a bee, um, just to kind of keep it easy to remember. Um but yeah, my name is Chris McKeebe. I am uh I'm currently a high school teacher. I teach chemistry. Uh, I love science like way too much. Um, it explains why I do some of the content I do. But yeah, I also I make content on Instagram specifically around the experiences teachers have regarding behavior. And I tried to give teachers and other educators a nervous system perspective on behavior, kind of making it more objective and less personal. Just because for me personally, when I was in the classroom, I felt like the behavior issues in my classroom were personal. It was really discouraging for me. And I noticed that this was a pattern like all across the world. We can we can get into that. Um, but that's that's some of what I do on the internet. Uh, I did write a book called The Learning Compass that was inspired by uh my experiences in my 20s working as a tutor, uh working as an educator, just kind of writing down some of the things I learned. Um, taking control of my own life, honestly. Uh, I see learning as this vehicle where I can essentially like ride in it and trade that skill for anything I want, uh, which is like super empowering and exciting for me, which is also what inspired me to go into the classroom.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

That's great. I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Thank you. Um yeah, the ebook is free for those of you listening. Send it to a student that you know is smart and uh just lacks direction. Uh that's that's pretty much who I made the book for.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

What else? I oh, most important thing, I have two daughters, uh, once three and four. If they randomly open the door and come to the room, I apologize.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I hope I'm praying that happens.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Okay, that's good to know. I've I've been so nervous about it. No, I'm also married. Uh my wife's name is Kyra. She's fantastic. She's inspires of the work I do. Uh, what else? I love music. I've been a musician for a very long time. You might see like a guitar in the back.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. What kind of music?

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Uh oh man, I love all kinds of music. Like literally every single genre from like every era, like all the way from like classical to like right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

All right, I'm gonna test you. Do you like prog rock?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Ooh, you have stumped me on this quiz. I'm gonna need some recommendations so I could check it out. But that's not old Genesis. Got it. Okay. Yes. Okay, I'll definitely check that out.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

It's trippy. It's trippy.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, the old old Genesis.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Good stuff, good stuff. I'm familiar. I'm familiar with.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

All right, we just got into the music weeds. Sorry. All right, back to education.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

That's the easiest way to get me off track, honestly. Talk to me about music, Pokemon, and Chrome. Movies for me, too.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

I love that. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

But, anyways, yes, that's a little bit about me. Also, clearly, I can't think in a straight line.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Um that's why we're educators. Right. We are flexible thinkers. Flexible thinkers. Absolutely. So, nervous system. So, this is what actually made me reach out to you is you are very refreshing, no nonsense, you know, no nonsense, pretty straightforward. Like this is how, you know, this is what's actually going on in your classroom with your students. And this is how you can calmly handle it. So I I I just want you to teach everything right now in this in this discussion. No. So, I mean, like, what are your like big like maybe first start about the nervous system and then talk about how teachers can approach students or choose not to approach them yet and let their nervous. How can you help students to calm their nervous system before trying to talk about the actual issue?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

So I want to preface this by saying I'm not the guy to tell you to like take a deep breath while something's going on, because we all know that that's like never gonna happen. Um, also, that never worked for me. Um but it is helpful to know that an escalated response will for sure give you back an escalated response. And a calm response will increase the likelihood you'll get back a calm response. Uh, and and that is helpful to know, right? Because if if you are one of those teachers that has a superpower that can take a deep breath in the middle of a stressful moment, please keep doing that. You are amazing. I would love to ask you questions about how you did that. Um, but if you are a mere mortal like me, you would probably build in a classroom system or some kind of predetermined response that helps you regulate first. So let me kind of like set the groundwork. Um, I I fundamentally believe that behavior can be seen as a response to the environment as opposed to a moral choice, right? Now it could be a moral choice, of course, like kids make bad choices, teachers make bad choices, but if we if we take that approach first, it's very disempowering, right? Because all the language we're left with then is the teacher is bad or the student is bad. All right, great. That doesn't solve any of the problems, right? And so I like to approach things from a nervous system perspective first, assuming that the nervous systems that are in the situation, whether it's the teacher or the student, are stressed or in survival mode. And when we can identify either of those states, it gives us more precise strategies that we can use to be more effective in the things we want. So um let me try and make this a concrete and simple example. So I I I believe that let me start with the blue ribbon emotions. That's a that's a fun idea. So um Jak Pengsep, if you guys are familiar with him, he's a fantastic neuroscientist. He wrote this book called Effective Neuroscience. Uh, it's a book that I read when I was in the heat of like my behavior problems, um, trying to understand the nervous system and why these behaviors are happening from the scientific perspective. Like as a science teacher, that's kind of the language I wanted. I I was sick of all the the kids hate me like stories that I'm just telling in my head. Um and so what Yaq Pink's basically uh concluded is that you can like zap the brain with electrodes and uh predictable emotions would come out of a nervous system. And he found that there are seven emotional systems that are pretty common around most animals, specifically all mammals. So you can zap someone's brain and you can have them feel curious, or you can zap someone's brain and they could feel afraid, or they could feel safe, or they could feel um rage, or they could feel so on and so forth. There's seven of them. You guys can Google those. And so the way I took that is that there are things in our environments that can evoke certain emotions. Now, as a teacher, when I read the blue ribbon emotions, I saw that there were two sets. Uh so one set is what I call growth emotions. These are emotions that are conducive to learning and help in the classroom. So these emotions are curiosity, safety, and play. Uh, and then there are survival emotions. These emotions suck. Like they do not help us in the classroom. Uh so these emotions are fear, rage, and panic.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Now, is that like the amygdala or just the entire nervous?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

All of this is the amygdala. Right. That's kind of how I see it. Like to have someone feel safe is a reactionary response. Right? It doesn't necessarily take the prefrontal cortex or take executive functioning to know that you're safe. Right. Right. You you will know that you're safe if you are, you know, hearing birds chirping. Um, I actually read recently that uh if if the brain hears birds chirping, uh, it will automatically trigger the parasympathetic nervous system because that's a sign that there are no predators around, which I think is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

That is very cool. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, isn't that so neat?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Like I love that.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Whenever I go around birds now, I just I just feel this like deep sense of appreciation for it. Yeah. Uh like what much deeper than I did before. And here's me not thinking in a straight line again.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Um but I'm a bird person too. So like a major bird person.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Love it. Um, anyways, back to those blue ribbon emotions. Yeah. So um seek seeking is this curiosity emotion. So this is uh a super pleasurable emotion that we experience when we are looking for something. So uh if you've ever like opened your fridge to see if something is different, that's seeking, right? It's like this super pleasurable emotion. If you're scrolling on social media, that's also seeking. If you see like a dog sniffing around, that is seeking. Like we love to do that as mammals. It's just super fun. And so you can imagine as educators, like we would want that emotion as much as we can in our classroom. And that is something that we can evoke from our students. And so I often will do that with a like, did you know, or asking them questions, or telling them to explain something to me. Um, that that evokes that seeking emotion. Um, then there's care, safety, of course, right? Learning is a vulnerable activity. If we do not feel safe, we are not going to admit we don't know something. Right. And then there's play. And play is my personal favorite because it signals thriving, right? If a nervous system is playing, they're not worried about the economy. You know what I mean? They're not worried about all the other things going on in the world. They feel good where they are. But what's also neat is when we are playing, we build neural pathways faster in our brain. And for those of you who are like not super science-y, that just means we can learn faster.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Right. That growth mindset.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Exactly, which is super cool. It's like this is why the middle schoolers can crush everyone at Mario Kart and I I Right. Because they're playing and they're learning faster. Yes. And so, and then there's the survival emotions, right? And so, survival emotions, I don't want anyone to label as bad or good, right? I'm I'm staying away from the world of morality. I love philosophy. We could talk about that like for way too long. Right. We're gonna stick with objective measures of behavior. So there's fear, right? Fear is direct threat to survival, like physical threat. Um, this can be triggered by loud noises, right? So those teachers who love to yell, no, uh, it doesn't help. It just gets them to be afraid. Right. Now, what's interesting about yelling, because a lot of people will say, like, I get this a lot as a male teacher, like, oh, behavior is easier because you're a guy. Kind of. Like, there's there's nuance there. So the way I see it is uh it's it's much easier for men to trigger the fear response in an amygdala or a nervous system because there is that latent idea of physical threat.

unknown 11:07

Right?

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Like even if it's totally yeah, yeah, even if it's not right. People who kill are typically men, that's like what happens, but also we have deeper voices typically and louder voices, and those deeper and louder voices will trigger the fear response. Now, the fear response may look like cooperation because it's like you yell at a kid and you tell him to sit down and be quiet, and he will, right? But that's compliance. And compliance comes at the cost of curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

And so to me, that's not what I want in my classroom, right? I don't want a kid to sit down and shut up and then never ask me a question or never think about the content. I don't want that. I want them to cooperate with me, right? I want that seeking, I want that play, I want that care. And so using those survival emotions, while it may look like you're getting the behaviors you want, you're not really, right? Because as educators, what we want is curiosity and cooperation. We do not want compliance. And I think every educator in their heart knows that.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Um, the next uh survival emotion is what did I say? I said oh oh rage. This is a fun one. Oh, yeah. Rage occurs if a nervous system feels trapped.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

And so if a let's say a bear is in a forest and it steps in a bear trap, right? The way it gets out of the bear trap is by running as much energy as it can through that bear trap and breaking it. And so you can imagine if you tell like a 15-year-old boy who just came out of like football practice or something and he's super hyped up and you tell him to sit down in his chair, he might feel trapped. Right. And now, so this is not his choice. This is a response that the nervous system is having to the environment. Okay. And so because he believes he is trapped, he will experience these rage emotions. Now, what's fun about rage is is I'll tell my students this exactly. Like I'll tell them, hey, you look like you're full of rage right now. Did you know? Right, there's a seeking, did you know that the nervous system will feel rage if it feels trapped? And then I'll ask him, hey man, what makes you feel trapped? And then they'll tell me all the things, right? My mom took my phone, or now I have the blah blah blah. But but what's interesting is um, for those of you who are familiar with the game charades, uh, it's a game where you can't talk, so you have to act things out. Uh people typically with more behavior issues then have lower litacy rates. And I believe that is because they do not have the language to express their experience. And so when we give students the language to express their experience, I've noticed the behavior issues melt away because now they're able to express themselves. Interesting. And so rage is a very in in my classroom at least, it's it's much easier to defuse rays because I will give them that language, which will then allow them to express their experience, but then also show them that I'm understanding them, which evokes that care emotion, right? So I I kind of hit it in this double with like with two of these growth emotions. I are you seeking to let them know something they didn't know before or like show them something interesting, and then I will evoke care by showing them that they are understood, by showing them that I understand something about themselves that they probably didn't, um, which is very calming to somebody, right? Um, there's a book I read when my first daughter was born called On Becoming a Person by Carl Rogers. And what I right, I'm I had a little person, I was like, I need to figure out uh and and the biggest insight I got from that book was that uh Rogers believes that understanding is the foundation for growth, which I think is just super cool, right? If we can offer someone understanding, they will then grow. Uh and what I've learned is that when I understand other people, I I am growing as well. And so when I see all of this nervous system stuff, I see it as like nervous system literacy and providing more and deeper understanding for people.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yes. So before you continue, yeah, already I know I'm like, I want all this written down somewhere. So do like other than your Instagrams, like your learning compass book doesn't have all this information that you're sharing.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

No, it has it has like random bits of it on different places. I wrote it in my mid to early 20s, everyone, just letting y'all know. Like I was not completely developed. Um, so it's all over the place. But I I do have this more organized in my behavior crisis training on my stand store. Okay. Or if if uh schools ever hire me for like PDs or whatever, I touch I typically give out all of these things at presentations, or if you ever catch me at a conference, I give out all of these things. Okay. Um but move.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

So you're gonna give me all your info. We'll put it on the episode page.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Yeah, we can I can send you all that. Um, and then personally I can just send you this stuff too if it's if it's something you're interested in.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

And I would love, I don't know if you want to do an edge guest blog post and share even just one of these.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Oh, yeah, I would love to. Yeah. I mean, my my whole goal is to get this information out there because I personally believe this would have saved me a lot of stress earlier in my career. If I knew this going into it, if this was mandatory teacher pre-service training, it would have changed so many people's careers. Yeah. Because it's changed mine. Like I went from literally writing my resume at 11 p.m. looking up for new jobs at one in the morning, right? I think like so many teachers.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

A lot of new teachers, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah, yeah, not even the new ones. Like so many all over the world, Melissa, all over the world, every single grade level from kindergarten to the college level, this is happening. But I've noticed that when I share this nervous system perspective, it gets a little bit more manageable. Um, but this is like one framework of like a bajillion I can talk about. Um, I'm like an information fire hose. So apologize.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

No, I love it. That's the way my brain thinks.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Oh perfect. Uh let's see here. So I am in, I am in, uh, we just talked about rage, right? Yes, yes. Okay. Um the last one, uh, the last survival emotion is panic. So panic occurs specifically if someone feels like they're going to be cut off from social connection. Uh, and so these punishments where it's like uh you're singling out a kid, or if you are, I don't know, isolating them from other people. Uh, or I had this one situation where a girl was getting bullied in my class and she was worried that I would stop it because other people would see her as a victim, and then she would be ostracized. And I was like, oh my goodness. Um I handled that. Yeah, I handled that well in a way that built the relationship with both students and and got the bullying to end for good, and I can talk about that later. But panic is this emotion that that really messes with people.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

And and a lot of people don't know how to respond to it because of this uh idea called co-regulation. And so, as nervous systems, as humans, we are amazing communicators because we can read each other's emotional states from the little differences in our faces, but also from our mirror neurons. So we have neurons in our brain that kind of pick up on other people's neurons and they will fire the exact same way. This is why people at like sporting events will all cheer at the same moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Like those moments, because we're we're all connected in this um, I guess like nervous system Bluetooth. I don't know how else to describe it. Um, but if we see another person in panic or fear or rage, it's very easy for us to get to those states as well. And that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Is that like empathy too? Like if you Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

It's the basis for empathy, right? It's the basis for empathy and in our high-level communication that we have is like honestly the best communicators on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah. It's like low level, low level hive mind. Low level.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Right, yeah, yeah, low level hive mind. Totally, totally. Maybe one day it's gonna get crazier. But but the reason why I bring up these emotions is because whenever we're thinking of a strategy in a classroom, like let's say a student is, I don't know, not doing what we want them to do, it is very easy to respond to their emotional state or their blue ribbon emotion as if they're making a choice. And when that happens, we may be met with something undesirable. So for example, if a student is in um one of those survival emotions, uh rage, fear, or panic, and we try to hit them with a consequence, or we hit them with a lecture, or we try to explain to them what they're doing wrong, they will not listen to us. Right. And it's not because they don't want to, right? It's because their brain is just constantly thinking, am I safe? Am I not safe? Am I safe? Am I not safe? And if we're just getting bombarded with words or threats or consequences or whatever, shame, uh that's just all signals for not safe. And that's just gonna push us further into that dysregulated zone. Now, those growth emotions seeking care and play, if we can evoke those first, we get the ner nervous system into a safety state. And when someone is in safety state, they have access to higher order thinking. Exactly. They have access to logic, they have access to cooperation, which is very helpful. Uh, and no one's blood pressure is going to the moon. Like we can all just relax and and have a regular conversation. And so whenever I'm dealing with behavior in my classroom with my students, I will make it an effort. There are days where I I forget. I'm gonna let everyone know. Like right now it's May. I have forgotten more days this this month than than other other parts of this year. But when I do remember, it works like a charm.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

If we can evoke these growth emotions first and then use the consequences or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

But you know, to get out of that state. But uh what I liked about your approach and your videos was you said, but you do come back around and do the teaching to help that person maybe avoid that next time and or to to to process what happened once they're in a better state.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yes, exactly. Their nervous systems, yeah. Because like some people think that what I'm saying is like, oh, just like it make excuses for the kids. It's like, no, no, no, no. You like get them into this safety state. So then when you do redirect them, when you do give the consequence, it's actually effective. Because we're already repeating ourselves like a bajillion times a day. Yeah, we don't need to talk to brick walls, especially if that's gonna take up instructional time or if it's gonna create this like dramatic spectacle in the classroom. Like the job's already stressful enough. Like we're dealing with educating kids, it's super high stakes. And like adding more to it just doesn't help. But getting people in these um safety states, right? Evoking these growth emotions first, I think is a a critical aspect of classroom management, but also just like nervous system literacy, just understanding people. Like I use this with my toddlers, and it is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I bet it is Chef's kiss. That's right. Because we're this is only audio, but yes, he does.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Oh, yeah, yeah. Chef's kiss. Chef's kiss.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

First of all, the information you're delivering is again refreshing and fantastic and probably career changing for for for teachers. But in addition, it's the way you're presenting it. You're very calm. You're very like most of the time, you're drinking your tea or whatever while you're doing it. And it's just like, hey, I got something for you today. And you just, you know, the little snippets, the little nuggets.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And um, this this may be fun for the listeners to know. So if you've ever seen my videos, you'll know that I'd like to drink tea before I start my videos. And part of the reason is because being on camera makes me really nervous, and drinking tea calms me down.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

That's awesome. You're working with your nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Exactly. I'm trying to get myself to cooperate.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

There you go. I love it. But but I mean every video I've watched, like you come up on my feet a lot and it's just like spot on. Spot on. I have to have like after like the fourth or fifth, I was like, I have to reach out to this guy.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Well, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. This is a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

By the way, do you go by Chris or Christopher?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Oh, Chris works for me.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Oh, okay. All right. So high school. Yeah. I'm an elementary teacher. You're a high school teacher. Yeah. So are you able to, you know, when you're you're doing your course, or you know, are you able to kind of say this is what it would look like in elementary school, or this is how you middle school, high school, do you sort of do you go and observe and work with?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

So I I've worked with a lot of elementary school teachers. Um, and and the the main principles are the same, but there are differences, of course. And so the differences I kind of uh present it as like a spectrum. So you can think of a nervous system as, and I mean this like clinically, not like as an insult, but like immature versus mature, right? And so a more mature nervous system can more easily regulate themselves, whereas an immature nervous system will need more assistance regulating.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

And so there's a couple of things I I share with people to keep that in mind. So processing language like words is actually really difficult for people. Um, it it takes a lot of cognitive load and it puts stress on our minds. And so if you're gonna explain to a small child this is why you should not do the things you're doing, maybe it will work, but maybe not. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

And so taking it in.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Right. So if if you have a more immature nervous system, right? And I I still do this for my high school sophomores, right? The ones that are on the more immature side. Yeah. Um, and I I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that as like a way to understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

I will rely more on visuals and faster feedback. So about 70% of the brain is dedicated to processing visual information. We are visual creatures. I think there's only like a few other animals that have better eyesight than us. Uh, plus, like humans, if we compare us to like other other mammals, we we stand up on two feet, like we we see higher up, yeah, for example, and our vision is much more clear. So so much of our bodies are already designed for processing visuals. Yeah. So we can use that to our advantage with more immature nervous systems. If we have more visuals around, it's one, you can just kind of point at something and they can quickly understand what's going on. Uh, it also prevents us from having to explain things a million times.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Do you mean when their nervous system is elevated or just instructions?

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Or or just in general. Yeah. So for both, right? Uh so if someone's uh having an elevated nervous system, I highly recommend staying away from words. Uh we can go into like the nervous system states uh in a bit, but I highly recommend staying away from words um because it it adds more cognitive load. You you really need someone to be in safety state to understand words. Now, if they are dysregulated, if you just have some kind of visual that lets them know, hey, what you're doing is not okay, but also like you are safe if you can find some way to bridge that gap, uh, it works very effectively.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

So something some elementary school teachers um do that I've worked with is they'll have literal, like literal signs in their classroom for different situations that come up most of the time. So they'll have like a sign that says, like, I don't know, don't touch your classmate or whatever. And they'll they'll be able to just point to the sign. And the sign is it looks playful, it's inviting, but it also makes it very clear of the expectation. And so that way the teacher can just point to it, the student can understand it with very low cognitive load, yeah, and everyone kind of just move on. Now, someone's always gonna be like, well, what about the kid that doesn't? Yes. Most of these are tier one strategies, and the goal is like we got whatever, 30 plus nervous systems in the room. If we can regulate like 20 of them by pointing at a sign, then we're only dealing with 10.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Just still a lot, but we're only dealing with 10.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Um, so that's that's a good point. Um, yeah, so that's kind of my my say there. And then there's also faster feedback loops. So in high school, um, I can have whatever, some undesirable situation with a student, and then maybe even talk to them about it the next day, and they'll understand. With a more immature student, you need to give them the feedback faster because their brain will not make the connection, right? Like if the kid does something crazy on a Monday, and then on like Tuesday, you're like, hey, remember that thing you did yesterday, we should not do it. They're gonna be like, What are you talking about? Right. And even if they do remember, the connections will not be as strong.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

And so I think it it's more challenging for the early elementary school folks. Like, hats off to you. I taught a science kindergarten class one time, and I learned the hard way that I am better for high school.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Science kindergarten. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

This is gonna sound so silly.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

So adorable, though.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

They they're so cute, but they cannot go to the bathroom on their own. And I didn't know that teaching the class. Oh no. One of the kids was like, Can I go to the bathroom? I was like, Yeah, go ahead. Right? Like I would in high school. And then the kid didn't come back, and I was like, um, I need to send someone out to go get them. And so then the next day, I was like, Okay, we're all gonna go to the bathroom together, like before class starts. And so we took them all to the bathroom. All the girls went to the bathroom, they came right back out, they lined up. All the boys did not come out of the bathroom. And I was like, What's going on here? I walked in and we got like toilet paper everywhere, and they're like throwing water at each other, and I'm like, Oh, I'm not built for this. Um that was that was really early on in my career.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Oh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

But yeah, anyways, I have deep, deep admiration and respect for anyone who does any grades younger than high school sophomores, honestly. I have respect for everyone else too, but I understand like from 10th grade up, I get it. I yeah, that it makes sense to me. Below that, hats off to you guys. Um, but what I would suggest is focusing on visuals, faster feedback loops. That is how you would adjust the principles I share.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

So I'm hearing conf I'm getting confused. Got it. Only because faster feedback loops, but only until their nervous system has calmed down. So how what how does what does that look like then?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

So so for example, let's say um students can't keep their hands to themselves in class, right? If you can, if you have the capacity to, and I also want to mention this that the most important nervous system in the room is the teachers. And please do not forget that educators, because it's so easy for us to forget that. So if you do not have the capacity to do it, it is okay. It is okay. Um, but if you don't, if you do have the capacity, like let's say there's a student who's like, whatever, not keeping hands to themselves, if you can identify that quickly and like point to that sign or give them that redirection in a safe and playful way as fast as you can, it is less likely to occur in the future.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Okay. So it's it's they're not necessarily dysregulated when they're doing that. So you can point to that and they get that message because it's visual, and maybe they're not as so we can we can process visual information while dysregulated. Oh, okay. So you're talking verbal, you need to wait. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Yes, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So you're not sure. No, I just probably didn't understand it. No, no, you're good. Yeah. Verbal needs some time. Yeah, yeah. You can just rely on that regularly.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Even if they're up here. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Okay. Just point, no words. Just point, no words. If it's a nice little playful picture, everyone's happy. Um and even if they are in like a safety state or they are regulated, uh, now they have more cognitive power to go do the other things, like push themselves in whatever academic subject they're in.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Very interesting. So you're gonna be producing all of these visuals and selling them on your store, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:37

No, I don't have the time to. Uh, but I also I also believe that that teachers are extremely competent. There's this narrative going on right now that like teachers are fools. And I that is like so not the experience I've had.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

So many of the teachers I talk to are some of the most intelligent people I've ever met. I agree. And and so I believe that if I just share this message, the teachers will run with it. And what's super exciting and really cool is that this happens all the time. Like, I'll get emails or DMs from teachers that are like showing me the systems they're creating or like implementing these principles that I'm sharing in these ways that I would have never imagined.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Uh, and so while maybe it would be like more lucrative to like make all these things and sell them, I personally think that the teachers can do it. And if you feel like you're like, Mkibi, I don't want to do another thing. Great, get a student to do it for community service hours or have make it a fun little project for your classroom.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Well, it's the beginning of the year when you're going over routines and classroom expectations. The kids can make those posters and then it'll even mean more.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yes. And then they have ownership in the classroom. It's great. Totally. It's great. Make it a playful thing, then they're building those connections faster. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Totally. I love that. Oh my goodness. So awesome. Oh, I'm glad. Thank you. So awesome. So, what are some tips or tricks that you haven't mentioned yet for I mean, especially high school? Because I don't, I'm kind of curious about high school. Um, you know, are you talking about all the way to like not doing their homework or not showing up to class? Or like what do you do for our high school teacher listeners when when that happens, or if they're acting up in class, because you clearly you know something's happened, they're upset. Like just follow these, follow these things even at that level, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yeah. So something that I would typically the the the framework that I approach uh my high school students with is the blue ribbon emotions, like I talked about earlier. But then I also think about emotional states. And so I believe that behavior comes from three states it's either safety, survival, or stress. Uh and I kind of see it as like a traffic light. So safety is like the green light, it's all good, everything's fine, people are gonna cooperate. That's the student where you're like, hey, can you sit down and do your work? And they're like, of course. And I'm gonna come back to you with uh D-OK level three questions or whatever, you know? And you're like, Thank you, this is wonderful. Um, but then there's there's stress state. And so stress state, it's it's very easy for teachers to take in stress state as defiance or as laziness. Um, but again, maybe that is true, right? But approaching it that way the first time doesn't really help anyone. I think if you approach it from, okay, they're stressed, here's what we can do if they're stressed, and then that doesn't work, it's like, okay, then yeah, maybe we're dealing with some laziness or whatever, some other character question. But stress state typically you can think the way I like to think about it is like an energy conservation state. It's when the nervous system is picking up on something that is there's there's something going on, and I don't know if I'm gonna need energy for it later. Right. And so that shows up as avoiding tasks, right? Shutting down, yes, putting their head down, refusal. Um, you know, I'm in high school, you all see like kids with their hoodies on and it's like 90 degrees. Yep. Um, that kid's in stress state. They're trying to limit the input coming in.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

And if you don't believe me, take one of those students and then give them a checklist of 10 things they have to do and tell me how they respond to it.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

They'll just look at it and be like, no, I'm gonna not do this, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

So what I'll typically do if I find a student is in stress state is I'll lower the bar for entry. So I have a great example for this. So I had to do a project, or I had to do, I was assigning a project for my students to explain some principles of nuclear chemistry. And I had a student who just flat out refused to do it. And so I was like, okay, I could look at this kid as lazy, or I can look at him as stressed. I was like, okay, before I think he's lazy, I'm gonna see him stressed. I'm like, okay, well, if he's in stress state, he's trying to conserve energy, um, he's probably overwhelmed.

unknown 33:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

And so I was like, I'm gonna give give him just one thing to do. And so the the project was it was a creative project where you can kind of do anything you want as long as you explain the um Which can stress kids out more than totally, yeah. Yeah, my only constraint was not a PowerPoint, right? And so it's like I blew open the doors. And so I was talking to this kid, I was like, hey man, make a poster. And he was like, Okay, and so then he got the poster paper out and then he looked at the blank page and then he put his head down again. Yeah. Nice. I was like, he is stressed, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

He just needs to scaffold, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Exactly. And so I looked at him, I was like, hey man, split split the poster into four corners, and this corner do this, and this corner do this, and this corner do this, and this corner do this. And he's like, Oh, okay, and then he just he worked on it, and then he finished the project faster than he expected.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

So the stress is the lack of executive functioning skills, he know he doesn't know how to get started, he doesn't know what to pick, and then that stress comes out as behaviors, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Too much going on, and so the best thing to do is just to conserve energy because it's not dangerous yet, right? Like the nervous system isn't like this isn't danger, this is potential danger. And so I need to save my energy for when the danger comes. And so that looks like task refusal, that looks like shutting down, but really it's overwhelm. And what's funny is the kid asked me, he's like, Mr. Mukeebi, can I get like another week on this project? I gave him three days. He's like, Can I get another week? And I looked at him and I was like, Yeah, but don't tell anyone else. And when when he when he got that like confirmation of like, I have more time, I saw his eyes light up. It's almost as if like now I have a chance, right? Right. Oh what's funny is he finished the project in two days and not three. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

But they need to know like once he's calm.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

No, they can't, yeah. Then then they have access to that higher level, right? Absolutely functioning, higher level of capacity, higher level of pushing themselves. Um, so that's stress state. Super useful. So whenever I see a student in stress state, the first thing I do is signal safety in a non-verbal way, right? A great way of doing that, by the way, is uh putting your hands up. If if you show people your they can't see me. If you show people your palms, uh it will it will subconsciously disarm the nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Uh which really that's like a that's like a caveman thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yeah, it's like a caveman thing for sure. Yeah, because if you can see someone's palms, they're not holding anything that could potentially hurt you. Gotcha. Right. That's also why police officers tell you to put your hands up, right? It's to signal to themselves that you're not dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Um anyway. Yeah. So lowering fascinating. Yeah, isn't this so fun? It's so fun. There's a great book I recommend everyone uh everyone read called What Everybody Is Saying by Joe Navarro. He's an ex-fbi agent uh who wrote about body language. Fantastic book. Um, that was never in my book list or anything. That's just my my random brain. Um, but highly recommend that book. It's super good. Pretty short, too. It's like an easy read.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Um so that that's stress state, right? It's that energy conservation state. Yes. Now there's survival state. Now, survival state I see is like the red light, right? So if like safety state is a green light, stress state is the yellow light, survival state is the red light. And this is when the nervous system's like, there is a clear danger in front of me. I have saved up all of this energy, I'm gonna use it. And so if you see a student, and now this doesn't always mean they're like being violent, right? This just means they're doing stuff to try to calm themselves down or take control of the situation. And so this uh this appears as like the arguing back, these are the like emotional explosions, but this is also like just boundary testing in general, right? Like those students who are asking the silly questions, or maybe you have a student who's bullying another student, right? That bullying is boundary testing. Why are they testing boundaries? They feel like there's danger around them, they need to control what's going on. Yeah, right. Now, not everyone likes to have compassion for a bully, but if you can recognize that, you can disarm them really, really quickly. Um so so whenever I'm gonna tell that story at some point. Yeah, I could tell that story. So I had um I had a student, I'll admit their names, but I had a boy in my classroom a few years ago who's bullying a girl in my class. And this was beyond like just like typical teasing, because like, you know, if I got friends in my class, they'll tease each other. I'm actually fine with that because that kind of banter will build relationships. Um, it's play rather than fear, right? Right. Um now this was not that. This was like mean, this was fear, this was disgusting. I it put me, honestly, in all of my survival emotions. Like I was in rage, I was panic, I was angry. Uh I was like, I'm gonna go fight this bully, defend the innocent, all of that. Um, but I didn't respond that way because I knew if I did, it'd become this whole back and forth, and then I'd lose instructional time, and then I'd I the students are gonna resent me, and then the next day is gonna be more difficult. And so what I did was I recognized this bully was in survival state. And so if someone is survival state, the thing I do number one is lower the temperature, right? Tried to signal again, signal safety. That's like the if there's anything anyone does, signal safety in an honorable way. And so what I actually did is I walked up to the student, I held up my hands, I was like, hey man, you're not in trouble. First thing I said. Didn't even address the bullying. I said, You're not in trouble. And he was like, Cool. And then I said, You found the line. Do you want to back up? That was it. And it's because he's boundary testing, he's literally looking for the line. And I told him, You found it. And then I gave him a choice, right? Because I don't want him to feel rage, I don't want him to feel shame, I don't want him to feel wrong, because if I do, I'm gonna be met with resistance. I don't want resistance. My blood pressure is high enough, I already got enough things going on bringing like I'm not trying to do all that. Right. But I told him, You found the line, do you want to back up? And he was like, Oh yeah, of course, yeah, totally. My fault. And then he backed up.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So he understood what you meant.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's because I gave him again, I gave him the language to express his experience, and I showed him that I understood him on this deeper level. And so now he had the opportunity to grow. Now, what was cool is he was in safety state. I was in safety state. The girl stopped getting bullied, everyone was fine. At the end of class, I pulled him aside and I was like, hey man, you know what you did wasn't cool, right? This is me giving the consequence. I was like, hey man, you know what you did wasn't cool, right? And he looked at me and he's like, You're right. It wasn't. I was like, you know, we're gonna have to do something about it, right? Notice I said we are gonna have to, it's a cooperation thing. It's me and him against this problem, right? He's not the bad guy. It's me and him against the problem. It's like we gotta do something about this. He's like, You're right. I was like, so here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna write an apology letter to her, and I'm gonna let your parents know. And he was like, Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

This is the magic. There's still that consequence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

But now he's with you.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Exactly. He was down to receive it. If I did that in the moment in the classroom in front of everyone, he would have felt panic, he would have felt rage, he would have felt fear, like all the survival, it's like a trifecta of survival emotions that would have sent him straight to survival state. And if he's in survival state, I'm gonna be met with resistance, yeah, right. And then I'm gonna be in survival state. I'm hitting the resistance. Like, oh my gosh, because I'm a nervous system too, right? Teachers do not forget. And so I would have been met, um, I would have been in survival state. That would have just led to this back and forth and some undesirable explosion, more paperwork for admin or whatever, right? Exactly. Now, what was really interesting about that story is the girl went up to me at the end of class and she was like, Mr. McKeeby, thank you so much for not making a big deal out of it. I was so afraid other people would see me as a victim. I was like, dude. Like I just felt so bad. Right. I felt so bad because she was afraid I would stop the bullying. Like, what ugly what an ugly situation.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Um, but what's cool is that year there were no like behavior contracts that had to be signed. Like it was squashed after that. There was no under-the-table teasing. Like they were both able to be in my classroom. Like sometimes I'll have my students in for lunch. They would both be in there, so it's by choice, right? Like it was fine. It was fine. And it ended like just like as quickly as I said it. Hey man, you're not in trouble. You found the line, do you want to back up? Boom, done. Yeah. That's the mystery.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Bring that down to a middle school or an elementary, because I don't think, you know, they would especially elementary wouldn't understand that wording.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Right, right. Yeah, because I'm using words because I'm I'm dealing with a more mature nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Right. Is it just that, you know, you're safe here kind of language? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

I mean, so what I would do if if I was an elementary school teacher, knowing what I know now, please, those who are actual experts in this adjust as needed. Um I'm guessing at this point. But what I would do, given what I just shared, is I would again show palms and signal safety, you're not in trouble. Because I think that everyone can understand that. Um, so I would let the kid know you're not in trouble. And then I would point to a sign that said, like, whatever, no teasing, no bullying, hands yourself or whatever. Yeah. But that's what I would do. But now if the kid doesn't respond, like let's say I had that student, he was like, I was like, Do you want to back up? Right? Or you point to the sign to the kid, and they're like, I don't care about what you just said or what you think. Okay, now we're in the era, or now we're in the area of we need to implement some kind of punishment. Now, in in education, punishment is like a nasty word, but the way I see it.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

It's become that, yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah, it's become that. The way I see it is it's what it's a mechanism for stopping behavior, right? And so punishments can be done in ways that still build relationships, that still promote safety, that still make people feel seen and understood, right? But it stops a behavior. Yes. And so I think what would need to happen there is some kind of punishment protocol to then stop the behavior. So maybe that's the parent contact, maybe that's the admin contact, uh, maybe that's like whatever punishment procedures, but I highly recommend having that predetermined because a lot of what drains teachers in the classroom is the improvisation and the constant decision making in the moment. I think teachers make somewhere like a thousand decisions.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

It's insane. Like it's a ridiculous amount.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

It's a ridiculous amount. I've been thinking about making a video where I um I have like a little ticker, like a tracker thing where I track all the decisions I make. But then I'm worried that's going to give me more decisions, so I don't do it. But anyways, yeah. So it's like I would try these methods, and if it doesn't work, have some kind of punishment procedure. But make sure the punishments maintain the dignity of the student. Yeah right. Make sure they they are only implemented when the student is in safety state. Yes. And do it so that it evokes those growth emotions rather than the survival emotions. And that's what I do with my classrooms. And honestly, my students are almost always willing to take the punishment. And if they're not willing to take the punishment, that has nothing to do with my methods. That's because they're honestly they're probably dealing with something at home.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

There's something bigger.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Yeah. There's something bigger. Exactly. And I think it's also okay for teachers to recognize that we only have so much that we can control. And I think these methods really help teachers understand hey, like I found my own line. Like I can't go past this. And that's okay. Now you have more confidence to ask for support or more confidence to escalate to to admin or something like that. Right. I hope that answered your question.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

I I feel like it's it's all it's all gems. This is what I'm saying. Everything that comes out of your mouth is like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Talking Chris. So I love it. And I um what is your Instagram handle?

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah, my Instagram is Mr. Mukibi. M-R-M-U-K-I-I-B-I.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yes. So definitely if you don't have Instagram, Instagram, get it. Um it's great stuff for teachers. But um he you really stand out and you know, I'm tired of hearing, and it's true, but only hearing. Behaviors, communication, behaviors communication. Okay, but give me more. Tell me, yeah. And I think a lot of teachers like really need more than that. Okay, it's communication. So, like, what do I do with that? And how do I, you know, get that again, the child to a safety state so that they can communicate in a better way with me about what's bothering them and so on.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Yeah. Absolutely. Like teachers are so good at that. But the thing that's missing is we we are constant, like all the strategies we've been taught uh assume that the student and the teacher are in safety state. That's like never happening when something's going on the ground. That's like not going on. Exactly. Like I I am frequently in stress or survival state in my classroom, frequently. And I have to keep that in mind when I am trying to communicate that to my students.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Right? Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Good stuff. This all comes from me being sick of being told the same things too. I'm like, I know.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah, it's like break it down some more for me. Like, I mean, I this is my 34th year of teaching. I still have so much to learn. Like, like, we don't stop and go, okay, we know everything about kids now.

unknown 46:14

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah. Yeah. I was so surprised to see how teaching really is this infinite game where you can keep improving. And I know a lot of people told me that, like my first year teaching, a lot of people told me that. But now, now it's like, man, it's just so it's more true every year. Oh, absolutely. It's really, it's so cool. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

And that now we're just talking about, you know, helping kids to be in their safety state. But then there's um so much you can learn about teaching math, so much you can learn about because we teach all the subjects in elementary. So it's a lot of load. A lot of load. Yeah, it's good stuff. It's good stuff. Um, so can you just kind of tell people how they can reach you, how they can see your stuff, other than just Instagram?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Yeah. Um, so they can email me, uh, Chris at chrismukibi.com, uh C-H-R-I-S-M-U-K-I-I-B-I. Um, you can email me there. I will respond to all my emails. Uh, I I I honestly love talking to dedicated educators. It fills me up, it gets me excited. I I'm I'm so tired of this narrative that like education is going down in a handbasket. I I don't believe that. There are so many people that are dedicated. There's so many competent and intelligent educators, and and meeting those people really inspires me. So if you want to reach out to me through email, you can totally do that. Uh I'm on LinkedIn, I'm not as active on there. I am most active on Instagram. Um you could always DM me there too. If you tell me, heard me from Melissa's podcast, I will for sure respond to you. I wish I was more accessible, but that's yeah, that's pretty much it. Like Instagram and email.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

So you mentioned you have courses and things. You just email and ask for the courses, or you can totally do that.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yeah. So I have um I have a like what I call the behavior crisis training where I go over actually a lot of the stuff we just talked about now. It's just more organized because that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

This is a chat.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Yeah, this is a chat. I was just talking. Um, but yeah, that's my my behavior crisis training. Um, it's it's in my link and bio on my Instagram, but I could always send it to you guys if if you want it, uh, where I explain this nervous system perspective. Uh, I also run a three month in three-month intensive for teachers where I go way deeper into all of this. Uh so I spend way more time on the nervous system. I also go over classroom culture architecture, um, specifically like classroom, like building classroom systems for behavior now with this perspective in mind, and then a sustainability framework so that the changes can stay and teaching can feel sustainable. Uh, and then for the for the rest of the time, we actually workshop the specific systems in your classroom. Because I'm sure you know every teacher, every class is different. All the things that kind of go on is is very specific to each classroom. And so I I use that as an opportunity to help the teachers build their personalized systems uh in there. And that's that's actually my favorite thing I do. I absolutely adore that. Um, I also go to schools. Uh, I can present these information and ideas at schools as well. I can do it virtually or in person. Um, but yeah, those are those are some of the things I do.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Amazing. Amazing. Thanks so much for taking the time to to come on. Is there anything else you were hoping to talk about today?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Oh gosh. Um No, that's it. I just think uh if if I have a message for for teachers, it's that behavior is a signal that there is a system that is broken and it is not you nor the student. So the question is not what uh who do I fix, but the question is what do I fix? And I think that that's way more empowering. Yeah. Also, I think we know we can't control people anyway. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

We cannot. We cannot. Yes. Oh, really great. Um, so thanks again for coming on, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Thank you, Melissa. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you reaching out.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.teteachures.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram at Melissa B. Milner, and I hope you check out the Teacher Ads Facebook page for episode updates. This podcast is sponsored by the Career Mentorship Program Major Choice. You can learn more about becoming a mentor at majorchoice.comslash mentor. Thanks for listening, and that's a wrap.