Vitals for Youth Ministry
Welcome to the Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast. Vitals for youth ministry is a biblical framework based out of Acts 2:42-46, developed by Lead The Generation that trains youth leaders to build a local church youth ministry focused on developing students into healthy disciples.
In this podcast we will focus on the topics and issues most relevant to leadership in Youth Ministry. The Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast is hosted by Eran Holt, founder of Lead The Generation & Caleb Leake, Youth Pastor at Allison Park Church in Pittsburgh, Pa.
Vitals for Youth Ministry
Ministry mistakes, Behavior Correction Traps & the Tension of Events vs Discipleship - Jared Berry
What if the transition from high school to college didn't have to mean a crisis of faith for our youth? Join us as we unpack the pivotal difference between heart transformation and mere behavior modification in youth ministry. With insights from Jared Berry, the Next-Gen Director for the New York Ministry Network of the Assemblies of God, you'll gain an understanding of how approval-seeking can derail young believers and learn how to foster a gospel-centered approach that truly resonates.
Our conversation centers on the critical need for a strong biblical framework, emphasizing discipleship over short-lived emotional highs. We'll discuss how to navigate common pitfalls, like focusing too much on outward behavior, and instead nurture a deep and genuine love for Christ that withstands the pressures of new environments.
In the final segment, we shift our focus to implementing long-term discipleship strategies, particularly within youth ministry camps and events. Discover how to integrate these experiences into a larger ministry vision, creating a cohesive and Vitals-driven approach. With practical resources like the Vitals for Youth Ministry framework through Lead the Generation and the Better Student Ministry podcast, we ensure you're equipped to question traditional practices and build a thriving, sustainable ministry. Whether you're leading a youth group in a large church or a smaller community setting, this episode is packed with the insights needed to transform your approach into one that prioritizes lasting spiritual growth.
See more of Jared Berry's resources at Better Student Ministry.
Check out Vitals for Youth Ministry HERE.
Check out Lead the Generation HERE.
Interested in over 2 years of FREE Youth Ministry Sermons? Go HERE.
If you love the resources being provided for free by Lead the Generation consider partnering with us HERE.
And then these kids would go off to college and they would start wilding out and they were partying and they were. It was like and I remember thinking constantly what happened? How did these kids lose their faith? You know, and there's a lot of conversation like that and I remember one day just talking with someone and realized that you know, if these kids, if they're idols in their heart, the things that they were worshiping was approval.
Jared Berry:Well, when you're in youth group, you get approval from a youth pastor by being a good Christian kid. You get approval from your parents by acting right and saying the right things and doing the right thing. And when you go away to college guess what? That's not how you get approval anymore. You get approval by doing different things. And so I realized it's possible that my whole youth ministry, if it was only about behavior modification, that I changed their behavior but I never changed their heart. And unless we address the idols of our heart and show them how Jesus is better, we may change behavior for the temporary, but we're not going to really see heart transformation.
Eran Holt:Hey everybody, welcome to the Vitals for Youth Ministry podcast, the resource of Lead the Generation. We're so glad you joined us today. Whether you're listening on Apple or Spotify or whether you're watching on YouTube, we're just glad you're with us. My name is Aaron, I'm one of the co-hosts for the podcast, I'm the director of Lead the Generation and I'm joined by this incredible dude right here.
Caleb Leake:Wow, that's a good intro. Yeah, I'm Caleb. I'm the youth pastor at Alice Park Church and I've been doing that for about four years now.
Eran Holt:Yeah, so excited for this podcast and so excited for you to be with us. It's going to be great, and I think the dog's going to be part of the show today too. So welcome, buddy, we're glad you're with us. He's not the special guest.
Jared Berry:Welcome, buddy. We're glad you're with us. He's not the special guest, the real guest we have today, right?
Eran Holt:here this guy, jared Berry, who is the next-gen director for the.
Caleb Leake:New York Mystery Network of the Assembly's Guide.
Eran Holt:Jared, thanks for joining us today. Hey, thanks, guys, excited you're with us. But also because you've been a part of the whole development of Vitals for Youth Ministry. You spoke into it in many ways and then you're actually in some of the resources, training, videos. If you're listening or watching and you don't know exactly what we're talking about, go to leadthegenerationcom, click on the vitals link and you're going to see this incredible resource that is 100% free. All the videos, all the notes to train you as a youth pastor, as a youth leader, whether you are vocational, whether you're volunteer. Use it for training your leaders. All that stuff, and I know you're using it in that way.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, absolutely. This is kind of the extended conversation from those videos, deep dive, and so we got time to relax, to chill. And so, Jared, because of that, we got youth pastors watching. I feel like you can't be in youth ministry and not have a stupid crazy youth group story and so just to just to get things moving, your go-to youth pastor story. Yeah, what's like if you're sitting at a lunch table with all the youth pastors and you got to one them up. It's like what's the story that you're sharing?
Jared Berry:Yeah Well, first of all, thanks guys for having me. I'm super excited about this and and very pumped about vitals. I love what, what your heart is, what you're doing and putting together. Um, I think it's essential and I'm I'm excited to be a part of it. So, yeah, a lot of stories in youth ministry, especially. You know actually, aaron mentioned this before. I realized I'm coming up on close to 20 years of doing youth ministry. Let's go so what's wild, you still look good.
Caleb Leake:I'm just let's just say that right there, like you're still, like you're holding it together. Any gray hairs under the hat yet from all the years.
Jared Berry:There may be a few. I'm still carrying a little holiday weight, so I apologize for that.
Eran Holt:Wait, what holiday are you talking about?
Jared Berry:Christmas is from like six years ago.
Caleb Leake:Okay, okay, I got it.
Jared Berry:But there's a story that comes to mind that actually involves my wife in our first church that we ever were at and she was her and I were kind of like trying to prank each other Right and I had bought for for youth ministry a bunch of these little stink bombs. Do you guys remember? They came in like glass bottles, do you remember?
Eran Holt:those. I don't think I know this. Oh, this is. You're too young.
Caleb Leake:I remember this is from my era.
Jared Berry:Can I get an Amazon link? Can we send an Amazon link after this? Yeah, I don't know if they still make them, but they were. I mean tiny little glass vial filled with Satan's sweat. I don't know what it was, but if you, if you, crack that thing, it was horrible smell. I mean absolutely horrible.
Jared Berry:And I had bought a bunch for some youth ministry stuff you know some fun, just like prank stuff that we were going to mess around with, and and she had found them in my office.
Jared Berry:And so one day, it was a Sunday morning, we were in church and we were part of the church was like kind of a conservative, maybe a little more old school church and and I'm, I'm down on the front row with the lead pastor, without me realizing, she grabs my keys to my office, sneaks out of the service, goes upstairs, unlocks the office, grabs them and she decides it would be hilarious to set one off in my office, cause in her mind the smell was just going to stay in the office.
Jared Berry:And then when I went in there I'd be like oh, what is that, you know? So she, she, she cracks one, doesn't notice anything and decides I'm going to crack a couple more. She breaks out five of them in my office shuts the door, heads back downstairs. Well, service is going on, and all of a sudden you start to smell a smell lofting into the sanctuary and uh, and people are going. What is that? Oh my goodness, service lets out, and at this point it's hit the air ducts, and so the ac is pushing the smell throughout the entire oh, this is amazing, I mean it it smells like absolute rotten eggs.
Jared Berry:She comes up to me panicked I can't believe this. I did this. I I set them off. She, she's admitting it to me. What do I do? And I at this point I'm kind of internally laughing but I'm like now I'm going to get you. So I was like this is serious. You got to go tell the lead pastor, you got to apologize, you know. So she was all worked up. She had to apologize to the lead pastor and thankfully he was okay with it, Cause he was an ex youth pastor. And thankfully he was okay with it because he was an ex-youth pastor, so he kind of knew. I knew what it meant, but people, they didn't know what happened and it was uh it was hilarious man wow see, like I, caleb, I hope for your benefit.
Eran Holt:You realize like you don't want an amazon link, you don't want to mess with this yeah, probably this is a bad era of youth ministry. We're talking about here.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, that's insane. Oh my gosh, I love the free-flowing conviction of that. She just came to you and was like here's what I did it's like oh, that's hilarious. Oh my gosh, the lord dealt with her I love that your youth ministry story isn't even about a student. It's about your own wife too, that's what's great yeah, usually it's like this dumb middle schooler. This is this. It's like now.
Eran Holt:My wife cracked some my story is about how I almost got fired as a youth pastor.
Jared Berry:Yeah, I got. I have plenty of those for sure, so uh, we all do.
Caleb Leake:Let's be honest, we, we all, we all have this moment, absolutely, absolutely I.
Eran Holt:I was such a like a anti-prank youth pastor like I, because I just couldn't handle it like I like like I was bad at a lot of stuff, but one thing I I was good at was recognizing what was going to trigger me in a not good way. And pranks were like on that list and so like I'm like hardcore, like no pranks at all because I just knew like if you get me, I'm not going to be able to handle it and then it's going to be on got it.
Eran Holt:You were afraid of the revenge prank I was afraid of myself, basically yeah, yeah, of the lengths to which you would go this man no emotional control at this moment in his life, like, okay, it's on now and I will win. The competitive side of me would kick in.
Caleb Leake:But that happened when I was growing up youth ministry. We had one of my friends pranked the like our youth pastor, which was actually my brother, and he brought him up during a service and played a huge prank video in front of everybody. It's like, youth pastor, get back mode. Yeah, not good, you did. You did a good job restraining yourself, aaron, because it was like I can't wait, no there was no restraint, it was total denial, like we're just not going there whatsoever.
Eran Holt:but that's amazing. So let's jump into a conversation about vitals. And again, for those of you that are just kind of tuning in and maybe you're not incredibly familiar with what vitals for youth ministry is, one of the ways we would describe vitals is, we would say that it's a biblical framework that we can use to help structure our youth ministry around the purpose or the mission of discipleship. Right, we would all agree, as youth pastors, that's the goal we want to disciple young people, right? I don't think anyone would, at least not verbally say you know, why are you doing youth ministry? But sometimes we struggle to build youth ministries or structure youth ministries around that being the primary focus. And so the heart of Vitals is to really come alongside of you as a youth pastor. Again, whether you are a full-time vocational youth pastor, maybe in a midsize or large-size church, or whether you're a volunteer leader and running you know, running a handful of kids, the goal is still the same it's discipleship. And so the heart of Vitals is to really give you that framework or to really give you that structure.
Eran Holt:So, jared, let's just jump in here and we're just Caleb and I are just going to ask you some questions and just kind of, you know, have a conversation with you about Vitals and more specifically, about like, why we need a framework right For our youth ministry. So let's start there. So why? Why would you say youth pastors need a biblical framework that focuses on discipleship in their youth ministry? Why, specifically like? Let's unpack the idea of like. Why do I need a framework, or another word you could use as like philosophy? Why do I really have to have like the foundation of a biblical philosophy in my youth ministry?
Jared Berry:Yeah, I think it's so important because, you know, when we get into youth ministry, I think a lot of us love teenagers, we love Jesus, and we kind of have an idea of what we think we should do or what we think youth ministry looks like.
Jared Berry:And the longer that you do ministry, oftentimes you realize all the mistakes that you make, although you think back and go man, if I could have done it differently, I'd do this, I would do that.
Jared Berry:And having a kind of a guiding philosophy that is like the the, the bumpers or guardrails, but also the helpful framework for us to make decisions about what really matters, and that could be financially, that could be how we spend time, that could be how we structure our services or whether or not we do small groups or all of those things. There's all these decisions to be made, and having a framework that helps us be informed when we make those decisions is so important or vital, if you will, that I would say it's one of the most important things that we need, because otherwise here's what happened and I can relate to this for some time my youth ministry is years can go by and we kind of think we're doing a good job or we hope we're doing a good job, but then we look at the fruit and go man, I don't know if I was really making a a difference long-term.
Jared Berry:Sure I was loving kids and God uses everything. But when you have a helpful framework to kind of measure and judge and evaluate the things that we're doing, what I found is your fruit can increase so much more and it can help you not only know what to do but also what not to do.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, absolutely that. That emotion is so real of like I feel like it's the longer you're in it. It's like, am I doing the right am?
Caleb Leake:I doing the right stuff. And yeah, I think as, as you were talking, I was thinking what? What do you think youth pastors tend to get the most tripped up on in this conversation of philosophy, maybe even what do you feel, like you said you wish you would have done things differently. What do you think you found yourself getting held up on that? You think you wish you would have changed.
Jared Berry:Or you see in the trends of youth ministry you think you wish would change, yeah, the two things that I missed the most when I did youth ministry was number one my theology. So I did not have a gospel centered theology, um, a lot of my teaching, preaching, focus was about behavior modification. How do I get kids to look more like Christians, to behave better, um, versus how do I get students to love Jesus more, and um, and so that was one big area where I really missed it for a long time, and that shift being a gospel centered youth ministry, a Christ centered youth ministry, was pivotal. And then the second one was having a discipleship strategy and understanding that we're here ultimately to to make disciples that are lifelong followers of Jesus and um, it's nothing else matters, right? So everything we do in a discipleship strategy, all the time that we spent, the decisions we make, all of that should be filtered through. Is this part of my strategy to move kids from unbelief in the gospel to full belief in the gospel in every area of their life? And um, I don't think I had. I don't think I realized that. Recognize that, um, and and as I did.
Jared Berry:The last thing that I'll say, which I realize is and I and I wish young leaders would grasp this more is we often overestimate what we can accomplish in the short term and we underestimate what we can accomplish in the long term, or what God accomplished, you know part through us and through our works and through our works. And so I just remember the amount of anxiety and pressure and weight that I would put on myself each, like Wednesday night over the sermon. You know, and like this, this one's going to be it, this is going to be the game changer, but I often underestimated what it would look like if I stayed consistent in those kids' lives for four years. And so I think that's the, that's another like those are probably the three biggest mistakes that I would make that if I went back, I would. I would try to tweak, tweak, adjust.
Eran Holt:I, I. Your answer is so interesting to me. I want to, and I want to unpack it a little bit more and camp on a little bit.
Eran Holt:Um, cause I again, like I mentioned earlier, I don't think any youth pastor would ever verbally say, oh, discipleship, Ah, that's not really that important for us, right? We would all, you know, not, we would all be like, no, absolutely, you know, that's the great commission. Go and make disciples, right. And in the same way, I think that it's remarkable, jared, for you to reflect back and um and say, man, I don't think that we were as gospel central or gospel fluent as what you know. Maybe I, I thought we were you most youth pastors would not assess their current youth ministry or maybe they're teaching and preaching and say, yeah, I don't really talk about the gospel, that much you know.
Eran Holt:And that's for those of you that are interested in some of the vitals resources. There's actually a couple of videos, jared, that you did for us that really unpack gospel fluency how do we build and structure our sermons and preaching. I'm thinking about one video in particular that you and I did, jared. It's like how do we preach for biblical literacy, and so there's some good content there. But unpack that journey for us a little bit, jared.
Jared Berry:What happened in your life or in your ministry that opened your eyes to um that pitfall where you're like man, I'm not gospel fluent or gospel focused enough in my preaching and teaching into to being a full-time youth pastor, when I kind of had this slow journey of being exposed to some authors and writers Probably the biggest one was Tim Keller was a massive influence, and I started to listen to his sermons and what I realized was that and this is a major temptation to youth ministry, because we have parents that will bring their teenagers to us and basically what they're saying is fix my kid. You know they're doing drugs, they're watching porn, they're not respectful and their hope is that by being in your youth ministry, you are going to turn their behavior around. Yeah, and that was kind of the philosophy that I bought into, which is here's what a Christian likes. How do I get these kids to look more like that with the stuff that they watch, the music they listen to, whatever the behavior is? And so, as I would teach and preach the Bible, they, I would teach and preach them as kind of stories of morality that we would try to help the students learn.
Jared Berry:Here's what it looks like, and so kind of a classic example would be the story of David and Goliath, right, and you could preach that story and I would preach it as hey, let's all go, be like David, right, let's, let's attack our giants. What are the giants? In your life? You got to attack the giants and blah, blah, blah. But the true point of that story is that we're not David, we are the Israelites. David is actually pointing us to Jesus. So the hero of the story is not David, it's Jesus. And and so the it's not that there's not attributes that David has that are not admirable. But when I teach and preach that story now, what I'm showing them is don't you see that, even in our good behavior, we are all sinful and broken. We are all. We are the Israelites. We are afraid, and what we need ultimately is a savior. We need someone to be our substitute, which is what David was now. Because of that, because of the beauty of who Jesus is and how he transforms our heart, for how much he loves us and stood in our place, now we can live for him. And so it's a very different message, because one is go, do your best, rah rah, we can do it. Try hard, be like David. And the other is don't you see what Jesus did on your behalf? Now, out of your overwhelming love for him, let's live. Let's live for him. On his behalf, love for him, let's live, let's live for him on his behalf. And so one motivation is is I'm going to will myself to this, and the other motivation is a deep love for Christ. And so that's just one example of how you would teach and preach the Bible. But those, those examples are all over the place, and so that was really transformative for me. And, um, and what I found was this was a real kicker, and then I'll, and then I'll hand it to you guys.
Jared Berry:But I realized, for years and years and years, I had students who were. They were the one or two kids in youth ministry that made you feel like you weren't an absolute failure. You know, they were the ones raising their hands in worship, they were going on all the trips. They were you're like, all right, yeah, finally I got it, I'm doing, I'm doing okay. And then these kids would go off to college and they would start wilding out and they, they were partying and they were. It was like, and I remember thinking constantly what happened? How did these kids lose their faith?
Jared Berry:You know, and there's a lot of conversation like that, and I remember one day just talking with someone and realized that you know, if these kids, if they're idols in their heart the things that they were worshiping was approval. Well, when you're in youth group, you get approval from a youth pastor by being a good Christian kid. You get approval from your parents by acting right and saying the right things and doing the right thing. And when you go to college guess what? That's not how you get approval anymore. You get approval by doing different things.
Jared Berry:And so I realized it's possible that my whole youth ministry if it was only about behavior modification, that I changed their behavior but I never changed their heart. And unless we address the idols of our heart and show them how Jesus is better, we may change behavior for the temporary, but we're not going to really see heart transformation. And that was a massive eye-opener for me as to even the good kids are still worshiping the same idols that the bad kids are. It may manifest differently, but if we don't address those idols, if we don't get to the heart of the issue and show them how Jesus is better, we're wasting our time.
Eran Holt:Yeah. So, caleb, let me flip that to you real quick, because you know, you mentioned-.
Caleb Leake:First off we all say this is like, this is like, this is so good, and even convicting as a youth pastor, because a lot of the stuff, I just feel a lot of those same things. Well, that's what I want to ask a lot of pastors, because you're right at the beginning of your journey.
Eran Holt:You're right four years in, yep, you know. And so, as your list, as you're unpacking that I'd love. I think it would be helpful for those that are watching and listening to like you're in youth ministry. You're doing it. How does all that hit you? How are you processing that?
Caleb Leake:Yeah, I'll say, I'll say the behavior modification thing is so because there's a, there's a fine line, right, I want students to be transformed by the word of God and the word of God, through repentance, should be become a thing that transforms my behavior. But it's easy, like you're saying, to get so focused on the fruit behavior that I want you to change. Um, and even making the association between. This is why students go off to college and often they end up falling off because they're kind of seeking the approval of you know what, what they got from me or other youth leaders for years. So I'm like, wow, that is seriously.
Caleb Leake:It is like really challenging for me. I would say like, um, I think for me I'm thinking, okay, what is cause? There is that fine line of like. I want students to be transformed in there. And there is when in Jesus's teaching he has some stuff that's like hey, don't live like this, don't do this or do this. So what was like the guiding um, as you're, as you're preparing for sermons, practically, what's kind of a guiding philosophy that helps you stay gospel centered and not get so trapped in the like, almost like fruit based teaching of like. I want to see this result in their life.
Jared Berry:Yeah, and you bring up a great point, which is that there is really practical, helpful teaching in scripture, like it's it is meant there's.
Jared Berry:There's wisdom, right, I mean the book of Psalms and and so much of you in the old Testament has such wisdom for us, right. But for me, what helps, and I think what transformed it for me, is realizing that, at the end of the day, what transforms our heart is not a fear of hell, it's not being scared to not make it. I think it was it was Keller who said no one's in heaven because they're scared of hell. We're in heaven because we love Jesus and what ultimately transforms our heart is falling in love with Christ. And so if you want real behavior change, it's not going to be because you're scared that God will punish you if you don't, and I think we can all relate to that. I mean, that was my youth group experience, growing up, you know. I remember having the thoughts and I still talk to students now where it's like if I die while I'm sinning, or if I'm listening to a, a secular song, when I get in a car I'm going to go to hell.
Jared Berry:you know and and and. A lot of my behavior and trying to be good was trying to earn my salvation because I was scared. I was scared of being punished. But the reality is, what really changes hearts is is a love for Christ, and when you realize how beautiful he is, when you realize that he's better, you will willingly lay down other things because you understand how meaningless they are compared to what he, what he, is. So, so let's, I'll use pornography as an example.
Jared Berry:There's wisdom in saying, hey, you're struggling with porn student. Yeah, you shouldn't have your phone with you in in times of temptation. Right, you shouldn't have a computer near you or an iPad or whatever. That's wise and we should do that. But we all should do is to say what's the heart idol behind the temptation of porn? Is it approval? Are you fantasizing in that moment that you're that person and that you're having the approval of the women that you're watching? Right, if we don't do both of those things, if we don't get to the hard idol, we may help them in the temporary, but we're not helping them in the long term. And so that was what helped me is just reminding myself if I'm not helping them in my sermon and teaching love Jesus more. I'm shortchanging them in the longterm, yeah.
Eran Holt:I think. I think it's a color quote too. He's getting a lot of shout outs today.
Caleb Leake:I think I have a color quote too, but I'm not sure.
Eran Holt:But I think I think he, I think I heard him say once we become what we behold yeah, right, and that's what I hear you saying, jared, when you're talking about like the goal is to get students to just absolutely fall in love with Jesus, and then their you know, their passion for Christ is what brings about transformation in their life. Let's unpack this from a slightly different perspective now. So we talk about vitals for youth ministry, five vitals biblical truth, spiritual transformation. That's a lot of what we're talking about right now. Those two, we would also say healthy community, missional living, leadership development those are the five vitals we want to structure our youth ministry around.
Eran Holt:That right, the trap that I think I fell into as a youth pastor when I'm listening to you speak, jared, about the journey you went through I would take students to, for instance, camp or a weekend retreat, a convention, something like that. They'd have this amazing spiritual experience. You know, spiritual transformation, right. And so then what I thought as a youth pastor was what my kids just experienced at camp or at this special event I went to. I need to build my youth ministry so that it looks like that, so that kids get that every single week. That was what I thought I'm like, what if I get? What if? My youth ministry felt like camp every single week? And so I remember like for years, like I'm just investing all my time, all my effort, whatever little budget money we had. It was all about like we're trying to like build this, this program, um, and that.
Eran Holt:So that for me, that was one of my big pitfalls was like this idea of like if kids are really going to grow, they need to be in that kind of environment on a regular basis. I think now, years later, I can zoom out and I can be like wow, there's such transformative value in taking your kids to those events and to those experiences and we need that. And that is a big part of the quote-unquote discipleship recipe. If I'm looking at my youth ministry from an annual perspective but I probably should have my local church youth ministry structured slightly different, right? So unpack that from your perspective, jared, because you're in the unique position of like you've been a youth pastor for years, but then you also help organize and run a lot of those events that we fully believe in. How do you see all of those things working together, like the local church youth ministry focus of something like vitals, along with great events and great spiritual experiences that you would find like in a camp.
Jared Berry:Yeah, that's a great kind of a great question and great point that I think you're making, and I was the same way, aaron, for a long time. That's it was kind of the if you build it, they will come.
Caleb Leake:Yeah.
Jared Berry:You know, if I can be a better, better preacher and we can have a killer band and we can make it look just right, yeah, we'll build it up. Um and um. I do think that's a massive lie and um and and a mistake. So I love it, though. Here's how I view these events is events are great. They're important. Events are great.
Eran Holt:They're important, they're necessary as an accent to a disciple making environment. I like that. I like that phrase, that an accent to it yeah. Yeah.
Jared Berry:So if you in your local youth ministry are making disciples on a regular basis which, by the way, is not always super fun and sexy and like it's, it's less appealing than the events because oftentimes it doesn't feel like you've got these mountaintop moments, it's more of a grind that's the trap.
Eran Holt:Yeah, that's the trap. It doesn't feel as good, yeah I'll let you keep going on, but yeah no, absolutely so.
Jared Berry:If so, if you have that foundation and that disciple making environment, events are really great because they provide some kind of they're. They're kind of like a spark to to use like a fire analogy, right, they're like a spark to the fire that you have been building all along. So you're putting the kindling on your, your, you're cutting the wood, you're building it day in and day out, week in and week out. And then there's these opportunities that are kind of spark moments, and what what is happening is sometimes we think, oh, that's the key to your point, right, the key is that.
Jared Berry:But no, no, the key was you building the fire to begin with, you getting everything ready, and then God kind of uses these spark moments, which are usually typically outside of their comfort zone. It's a little something different than they're used to, and there's different opportunities, and God uses those moments to do something really cool. But I think it's important for youth leaders to remind themselves without the work that you're doing, that would not happen. Yeah, it's, those are spark moments, but you're building that foundation of that fire that is ultimately going to sustain them in the long term, and so that's kind of how I think about it. I think they're both really important, but without the, without the discipleship strategy to begin with, those moments become way less meaningful and effective.
Caleb Leake:What's that look like for you in your youth ministry? I was just going to say that like what I have noticed, so I again it's Aaron is actually like in my ear a lot about like, don't just be about. You know the program.
Eran Holt:And so I talk about this issue a lot.
Caleb Leake:Yes, I feel like you're at a church that historically has been very event structured for youth ministry and very excellence. Yeah, like it's a big value.
Caleb Leake:And you've been trying to like balance out all of of that and so, even like hearing your stories, I'm like there's still that temptation to want to build something that feels really good because it feels good, it feels good to have something that feels quality, um, but also like when, when it's like I'm just waiting for the next retreat and it's like I'm just kind of building for the next camp, what happens is in the students they start to like say that stuff too, where it's like, yeah, I'm going through this really hard time, but I know campus coming up, so once I get to camp it's going to be good.
Caleb Leake:And it's like I'm sitting there like dude what?
Eran Holt:Like no, no.
Caleb Leake:Like we, we, we could be in the smallest room and worship God together and you'll experience, you know him to a way higher degree, and so it doesn't have to be just this emotional worship moment or this high energy, whatever. Um, that's been a real struggle, is something. Is is almost like the kids can get programmed to think the best parts are the highest emotional parts of camp, which really like it's, it's man. Yeah, this is. This is something I've been honestly stewing on a lot of like following Jesus isn't just experiencing him in the highs, but it's about like truly saying I want to, you know, submit to him and what he has for my life, and that can't just come through those camp highs so that's been a real.
Caleb Leake:That's been a real struggle for me we can.
Eran Holt:We can fall into the trap. We're unintentionally teaching students um to to that their faith and that growth in their faith is when they're longing for the next big spiritual event the next yes, you know that.
Eran Holt:You know, whatever it is, program event or whatnot, rather than teaching that discipleship is really this process of each and every day of my life. I'm choosing faithfulness to God and worship to God over the idols in my heart and all these things that we're talking about. And I don't think we do that intentionally as youth pastors. I think we just naturally. It's easy for us to fall into that trap of of events are fun, lots of energy, lots of feel-good moments for students and for us as leaders. Um, you get to see spiritual breakthrough, genuine spiritual breakthrough, take place in the lives of students and you're like that's it, I want that and I just want that all the time, right, and and we, we, so we fall very unintentionally into this trap or into this thought process as a youth pastor of that's what I'm building right there.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, rather than.
Eran Holt:I'm trying to structure a youth ministry around a core set of in this case we'll use the word vitals, because we're talking about a core set of vitals, a framework, a biblical philosophy that's going to help me produce disciples that are going to live long term. Yeah, Right, and Jared, you had talked about that like that. That became like one of the. I had the same experience where it's like you, you youth pastor long enough in the same place with the same group of students, and you'll you'll know, the test of your fruit is not even really what happens when students are in your youth ministry is what happens when they're outside youth ministry.
Jared Berry:Right, I would just if I could just add some to that too. Like I think what you just said, aaron, is so important, because I think I think in our current, this current generation that we're trying to reach, their primary idol is comfort, which is is a, an avoidance of pain or a pursuit of pleasure. So they're really wanting to either numb themselves or do whatever it takes to not be uncomfortable. And the problem is they're kind of emerged into youth ministry, this idea that if you don't feel something, then it's inauthentic and you shouldn't do it. Right, like, oh, if you don't, if you don't feel like doing your devotions and you're not super excited about it, then that's a problem and that's a hard issue and you're not being authentic.
Jared Berry:And so I remember hearing students say stuff like that, like yeah, I just don't, I don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it because I, like most of life in our Christian walk, is doing stuff we don't want to do. You know what I mean. You only ever read your Bible when you absolutely were so excited about it. You would rarely read your Bible.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, yeah.
Jared Berry:If you only went to work when you were super pumped about going to work, guess what You'd be on the street Like, as, as a parent, if you only did the things that you're supposed to do for your kids when you felt like it, you would rarely do it. I mean, that's the that's the worst recipe for success in life in general and certainly in our spiritual life, and so I think we've got to get back to teaching kids what it means to be determined for the Lord, to grind for the Lord and say it doesn't matter what I feel like doing, I'm going to do what he's called me to do, and often feelings come from discipline, and so that when we, when our whole youth ministry is based on these mountaintop moments and these events, it's reinforcing what kids already think, which is I'll just wait for the good stuff and I'll avoid any of the uncomfortable parts.
Caleb Leake:Yep, and what's crazy is when that, when they have a bad camp experience then it works when it's like I don't even know if I believe anymore. Yeah.
Eran Holt:It's like oh man.
Caleb Leake:So yeah, exactly it shapes that whole perspective.
Eran Holt:For that, and so just to be really clear, what I want to make sure that you hear and that you don't hear is a is a. I want you to hear there's great value and there's great breakthrough in the camp. Absolutely events, all these things we're talking about. Absolutely what I, what I, so I want you to to hear that, what I don't want you to hear, um, or I think I confused, I don't know what I'm trying to say right now but you don't want them to think camp is bad.
Caleb Leake:Yes, to think, yeah, I'm not saying get rid of all that.
Eran Holt:Yeah, I want, I want them. I want everyone to see how it fits into a healthy framework of like okay, here's what local church youth ministry looks like and here's what I'm focused on as a youth pastor or youth leader. Yeah, and here's how to use Jared your phrase. Here's how the camp type experiences, accent or augment and are a part of my overall annual discipleship strategy.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, yeah, I love, I love calling it an accent. That's so great. So for the youth pastors who are like I want to do this. I just don't know where to start. Where would you point them, jared, like what would be the first things they should start to focus on if they feel like they've become a mountaintop highs and lows, focused on the retreat kind of youth ministry?
Jared Berry:yeah. So I mean, that's one of the things I love about what what you guys are doing with vitals is. I think it's so helpful and important and um and just so necessary for when we kind of get stuck, to help give us some ideas, some fresh perspectives. So obviously, if you're listening to this, I would encourage you to really lean into that resource. But for me, if, if, if you were saying what's my discipleship strategy? Well, the first thing you got to do is define what does a discipleship, what does a disciple look like? If you're trying to make it a disciple, we kind of got to know, right.
Jared Berry:And so if I were you, I would, as simple as possible, lay out and say here's what I think a disciple looks like, here's what I would like to see.
Jared Berry:And then you start to build a strategy from step zero to step whatever. And and they really lean into the idea of assess everything you're doing. So if you meeting on Wednesday nights and Friday nights and you have an events and you're doing, look at everything you're doing and say how does this fit into my strategy and is there anything I'm doing? That is a duplicating effort. So if everything I do is a large group event, then and there's no small group element, there's no one-on-one element then you need to change some of the stuff that you're doing and you want everything that you do to be building towards that goal of making a disciple. And so if a student comes through our ministry, obviously it's God who changes their heart, but our hope is, as they come through, they're going to fall more and more in love with Jesus, they're going to look more and more like Christ, and so that's what I that's where I would say is to start is to really define a disciple and then assess everything we're doing and say does this help us reach that outcome?
Eran Holt:And there's a couple of videos that I'll reference in the vitals for youth mystery library that I think are exactly what Jared's saying here. That can be helpful to you as well. There's one called A Biblical Framework for Vitals and it really just kind of walks you through. Where do you find the five vitals in the book of Acts, right? And so we have this biblical framework of. This is why we're doing what we're doing. And then there's some other videos how to Build your Youth Ministry Around the Vitals, which is a lot of what you're talking about, jared.
Eran Holt:How to build your youth ministry around the vitals, right, which is a lot of what you're talking about, jared is it kind of helps you go through that process of defining what's the goal? Discipleship, right. What does the disciple look like? There's a lot of content on that in vitals as well, helping, helping answer those questions for you and just kind of walking you along through that process. So you can either build a youth ministry according to vitals or you might have to restructure, which I think is a little bit of what you've been doing, caleb, is you've been like okay, what are, what are some events that I either need to refocus this event or, you know, towards this goal, this vital or or I need to add this event, or I need to get rid of this one, like talk.
Eran Holt:Talk to the youth pastors, caleb, who are like man, I got to think through some of what we do and I got to ask myself some tough questions. Why do I do what I do? Is it just because it's what I inherited? It's the playbook we've always been running for years? There's a lot of reasons. This happens right, and so if you're a youth pastor, uh, you're a volunteer leader and you're listening, you're watching, uh, please, please, don't feel bad if you feel like that sense, like there's a bunch of you know, some of you got into you I feel like that's yeah, but like yeah, like some.
Eran Holt:Some. Some of us came into youth ministry with like this I'm called to do this and I'm going to go to school and study for it and train for it. And then others are like I was just a volunteer who loves students and then all of a sudden my church offered me a job and I'm like sure, why not? And but I'm and I just been kind of doing what we've always done. But now this conversations like this make me think differently about like why do I do what I do? So what's that been like for you, caleb, and what are any advice that you want to pass on?
Caleb Leake:Yeah, that's a great question, I mean, I would say, like the biggest piece of advice. The thing that's been the most helpful for me is having people who can speak into my life, people who are older than me, who've been in youth ministry for years, who can say, hey, here's what's going on. That's why Vitals is so amazing is because we just get wisdom from so many people who've been in this for so long that can really speak to exactly what I'm walking through, because again, four years in, I still feel like a total rookie and there's still things I'm like I'm still battling, so like the, the programmed versus discipleship, like strain I always will probably feel or at least I still feel right now.
Caleb Leake:I'm like that hasn't gone away. But having people who can speak into my life also, having other youth pastors I can talk to, is like another huge part of this Cause. It's a really lonely world as a youth pastor and yet a lot of times you can be like, am I just the worst? Like am I terrible at this, and it's, you know, having having perspective outside of yourself is is super helpful. So that's like. That's like the broad stuff. As far as like the specifics, I think what? What Jared was saying about playing the long game, about it's. You know you can accomplish more. I don't know I'm going to botch the quote here. I forget exactly what was the quote you said. I'm not even going to attempt it.
Jared Berry:Yeah, we overestimate what we can accomplish in the short term and underestimate what we can accomplish in the longterm.
Caleb Leake:Yeah, Bingo, that was beautiful, that was great, that was, that was so good, right there. Yeah, I think that catching that mindset has been so helpful for the pressure I felt, because when I first came on, it was like, okay, here's all the things I want to do, and when they're not happening as fast as I want them to, it makes me instantly go to what's wrong with me, which is just a terrible way to think that's part of the challenge of discipleship, though right, it takes work, it's kind of messy, it's long-term commitment and we want typically, we want short-term gain, we want to see it right away and then, when we don't see that fruit it's like oh, what do I have to do?
Eran Holt:And again, that's why we can easily fall into the trap of event-based, program-based, attractional-based youth ministry, because we either see immediate results or we see what looks like immediate results, even though it might not necessarily be that yeah man.
Caleb Leake:On top of that too, as you were just saying that, I was like one of the best things I've ever done for myself is getting off of social media, which is like how could you do that in youth ministry? But like not being able to look at other youth groups and what they're doing and how amazing and huge it is has been so detrimental to that long game perspective of I'm not doing a terrible job, yeah, and I just got to keep going. Yeah, the comparison will kill you. A terrible job. Yeah, and I just got to keep going.
Eran Holt:Yeah, the comparison will kill you.
Caleb Leake:Oh man, yeah, so that's a random other thing we could do a whole episode on that.
Eran Holt:So, Jared, you do just. You know you and I have been friends for a bit now but I know that part of your ministry and the role that you're serving right now cohort coaching with youth pastors in your network, both those that are vocational and even a lot of volunteers, Because you guys actually do a lot of planting of youth ministries in smaller churches. So you're having conversations, especially in those small churches. You're having conversations with volunteers that are just launching and starting a youth ministry from scratch in some cases, with volunteers that are just launching and starting a youth ministry from scratch in some cases. So you're having this kind of conversation with them.
Eran Holt:A lot right, how to structure and build things with discipleship being the main goal. Share some wisdom, Coach those that are watching and those that are listening. What are just some real good practical first steps for someone who is either kind of starting youth ministry up and they're kind of trying to lay some structure and foundation in place, or maybe they're in an established youth ministry and they're trying to restructure some things around the goals of like, like discipleship and vitals and things like that.
Jared Berry:Yeah. Yeah, it's been amazing. It's probably the most enjoyable thing I get to do. You know, aaron, you and I were part of starting a whole thing called launch, which is about planting youth ministries, and you're on right now. We've got three that are happening and this this is number 16 in New York over the last three years which is pretty amazing.
Jared Berry:So, um, yeah, what I would say is two things that, and they're kind of interconnected. But right now, one of my convictions in in youth ministry, but honestly it's, it's for the bigger church as well as the. The best youth ministries, the most healthy youth ministries that I see are youth ministries where biblical community is at the center of that youth group. And so one of the ways that's helpful to kind of say, well, what does that mean is for the students that are in that youth group. And so, in one of the ways that's helpful to kind of say, well, what does that mean is for the students that are in that youth ministry, that youth group is the social center of their world. And so I think there's a lot of youth groups where kids attend, but the social center of their life is their sports team, it's their the school friends, it's something else. The youth groups that are the most healthy are the ones that have created such a sense of community, which is community based around a shared mission, it's community based around a shared goal of Christ. But the kids that are part of that youth ministry really feel like this is our crew, this is the social center of my world, this is our crew, this is the social center of my world, and so, working towards saying how do we create that and build that with the opportunities that I have and for some people maybe I can only meet once a week or once a month, okay, well, in the time that you have the only way they can have real deep biblical community and discipleship is by having loving adults who love Jesus and love students. And so what I see as the biggest barrier for youth ministries growth barrier is that they love hanging out with students and sometimes they're even good at discipling students, but they do not disciple adults.
Jared Berry:Well, and being in youth ministry, if you want to be a youth pastor, youth leader, you have to be able to disciple adults as much as you disciple students.
Jared Berry:Yeah, that's true, because as your youth group grows, the lid on your youth group will be do you have other disciple makers and they don't just come out of the woodwork Like the best? Leaders are developed, not found. And so if your youth group all of a sudden goes from five to 15 and you're the only leader there, well, guess what? You're not discipling 15 people, you know. Or if you've got two good leaders and all of a sudden it jumps by you know 10, 20, 30 students, which can happen If you haven't spent a year developing great leaders and now you're scrambling trying to find them. It's going to be a lid on your ability to disciple students. So what I always would say is you are always recruiting and always discipling, and the bigger your youth ministry gets, the less you're going to spend time with students and the more you're going to spend time with adults, because you have to replicate your disciple making abilities and that only happens when loving adults are willing to pour into students.
Eran Holt:That's so good. I love that. It's just good, real, practical advice there. Let's highlight some different resources that can be helpful. So first, jared, you have some incredible resources there that you are constantly developing a podcast that you guys do that's talking about a lot of these issues. So where can people find you? Where can people find some of your resources there in the New York Ministry Network? And and where do we get you?
Jared Berry:Yeah, yeah, thanks. Well, like you, I'm also personally off of all social media and I would also endorse it. It's been amazing, but you can. We do a podcast called Better Student Ministry, which historically, there's tons of stuff on there. It's been it's been really focused on youth ministry, but recently we've made a shift to start to really focus on next gen. So we'll be. We have an episode coming out that's geared towards kids ministry. We'll be doing stuff on youth ministry and that's. You can find that on anywhere. You can find podcasts. You, too, we do video. We do video versions as well, so that's the best place. That's kind of where we put, we put our content out, and then the stuff that Aaron, you and I did with launch, I believe, is they can connect with you through the generation website. All that's on there as well. So absolutely.
Eran Holt:Um, on the lead generation website, you'll see launch and you'll see vitals. Um, launches is a credible resource that Jared, you and I were able to partner together to do. That's also available for free. So thank God for lots of generous donors and givers that make all that possible. Right, that's true for vitals as well. But if you're listening to this, you're watching, and let's say that you just love students and you happen to be in a small church context and there is no youth ministry or there's just a handful of kids and there's not much structure of a youth ministry, then Launch is a good place for you to start and work your way through some of that video content and the notes associated with it. If you are in a maybe a bit more of an established youth ministry that doesn't mean large but established youth ministry you are the youth leader, the youth pastor then Bibles for youth ministry is a great resource, as well as better students ministries, that um, that Jared's talking about. There's some, just some incredible stuff there for you.
Eran Holt:Um, you mentioned Jared about. Like, as you mentioned Jared about, as youth leaders, we have to not just develop our skills to disciple students. We also have to disciple other adults so they become disciple makers themselves. And it just made me think. There's one of the videos we have in the Vitals Library is called Becoming a Disciple-Making Leader, and that's good, not just for us, but that's like there's a lot of videos in the vitals library that I would say, oh, you should play that for your youth leadership team. If you have a couple youth leaders of your team, or even your student leaders, there's some great stuff in there, um, for student leaders as well. So some great resources to point you to. Um, jared, so glad uh, you joined us for, uh, our time together today. This has been really incredible. Uh, caleb, any last minute thoughts or questions or just something that's kind of I got to say this real quick.
Caleb Leake:No, it has been awesome. And really again, yeah, this is just a deep dive on the greater videos that are on Vital. So if you're a youth pastor, don't sleep on those. Make sure to check those out. Yeah, this has been awesome. I feel convicted after this thing and I'm like I got some things. I'm here because this is good for me. I'm like, not for you guys, uh no, but for real it's. Uh, this just gets me excited for all the other conversations we're going to have. So, yeah, uh, drop a drop a like, a follow, give us a review, because that just helps spread this to more youth pastors. Maybe send this to a youth pastor friend if you're listening now, because we've really been listening to be really impactful yeah, uh, check out these resources at leadthegenerationcom.
Eran Holt:Jared, what's the website for your podcast or your videos? Better student ministry, better student ministry. So check out both of those, jared. Thanks for joining us. Thank you guys. You guys, you're awesome, um, and the dog still sleeps. So we're doing all right. So, hey, we'll see you on the next vitals uh for youth mystery podcast. Thanks, friends, thank you.
