Vitals for Youth Ministry
Welcome to the Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast. Vitals for youth ministry is a biblical framework based out of Acts 2:42-46, developed by Lead The Generation that trains youth leaders to build a local church youth ministry focused on developing students into healthy disciples.
In this podcast we will focus on the topics and issues most relevant to leadership in Youth Ministry. The Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast is hosted by Eran Holt, founder of Lead The Generation & Caleb Leake, Youth Pastor at Allison Park Church in Pittsburgh, Pa.
Vitals for Youth Ministry
Emotional Leftovers & the Five tanks of Self-Leadership - Jeanne Mayo
Dive into a rich and inspiring episode that explores the intricate balance between self-care and ministry commitment, featuring youth ministry veteran Jeannie Mayo. In this conversation, we unpack the critical concept of the five tanks that represent the spiritual, emotional, physical, intellectual, and relational resources essential for leaders. Jeannie shares personal stories that provide valuable lessons on humility and authenticity in the face of adversity.
Throughout the episode, Jeanne emphasizes the importance of staying aware of emotional health to prevent burnout and cynicism in ministry. In a world full of distractions and challenges, leaders are encouraged to prioritize nurturing themselves, not only to lead effectively but to foster genuine connections with their communities.
This episode is not just about avoiding emotional leftovers but learning how to fill each tank of your life systematically. Jeannie highlights actionable strategies to bolster personal growth while providing insights into the intricate dance of leadership roles. The themes of vulnerability, grace, and resilience resonate strongly, making this episode a must-listen for anyone in a leadership position, especially those within the youth ministry landscape.
Tune in now to gather practical advice and meaningful reflections that will not only impact your ministry journey but enrich your personal life!
Connect with Jeanne at her website: https://www.jeannemayo.com/
Connect with Lead the Generation at: https://www.leadthegeneration.com/
My real ministry began when I pulled in the driveway, not when I pulled out. In Illinois, when you were there, I had a piece of paper that I hung outside in my garage on the door that opened to my kitchen. When I parked my car in the garage I'd open the kitchen and it was initial, so nobody else knew what I meant to me, but it stood for something remotely like this but it stood for something remotely like this.
Speaker 2:Jeannie, if you're giving the family inside your emotional leftovers, you need to quit the ministry. I didn't say the. When you're walking in your house and you pull your keys out to put it into the door, to turn it, he said tell yourself, I'm turning on my bus for my family right now. Hey everyone, welcome to Vitals for Youth Ministry podcast. This is a resource of Lead the Generation. I'm one of your co-hosts. My name is Aaron. I got the one and only amazing, caleb Leak. What's up? Youth?
Speaker 3:pastor for about five years now.
Speaker 2:But a brand new father, new dad yeah, got a six week old. Yes, oh yeah, a bunch of fun and we have an incredible guest we have the one and only Jeannie Mayo in the house. Well, not really in the house, but with us virtually.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at your carpet on Zoom.
Speaker 2:So, jeannie, I lovingly call you mom because you are such a spiritual mom to me and have been for many years, but you have been that role for literally thousands of youth pastors and youth leaders across the nation and really the world. You are a youth ministry hero and a veteran with many, many decades of youth ministry experience, so we're really honored that you would join us and carve some time out of your day.
Speaker 1:Aaron, did I pay you $100 for that little thing?
Speaker 3:I can't recall what the fee was, but thank you Can I say you did it great, you did very well Sounded, authentic.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so glad that you're here. We're going to have a great conversation today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, awesome, and you know what? Okay, what we love to do is we love to get different youth pastor stories and you've been in youth ministry for a while and I'm sure you have lots of stories. You were kind of pre when we started recording, kind of teasing us about one story in particular. So I'd love to hear it, because every youth pastor has that story.
Speaker 1:Every youth pastor. But I, caleb, said to you two I've been in ministry long enough that I have several of those painful stories, and I played mental Russian roulette this morning. The one we'll share is the one that anybody in the cadre knows well, because somehow alumni always tell them to ask about it. It was the infamous youth Christmas banquet. Everybody decorated the huge gym we held it in, we had cameras up, and this is before the days where everybody had screens. We thought we were so cool because we had big screens up and video projectors and my interns were running it on tripods. We thought we were so cool and we had great big Christmas trees we'd hold in to make this event and it was dressy, everybody's in formals.
Speaker 1:So if you've been in youth ministry very long, you know, golly, there are a few events couple a year that you have to really dress up for, and and once you're to point, you're not going out and buying a new formal each time if you're a girl. So I went up to my closet. I pulled out a black chiffon blouse with little cheap rhinestone buttons that look like I paid money for it, and a black velvet line skirt long. You know, as every girl knows, you can't lose when you're in black, so I put it on yes, yes, I go to the banquet. I'm getting up at the end to finish it. We've laughed together, we've eaten good food. It's been the perfect right before Christmas deal. Now my heart is coming out for all the kids that come from non-Christian homes, because I was one of those kids. I want to take care of them. So I'm just pausing to say have a private time with Jesus that day. And as I'm on my spiel in the room, they're softly playing behind me. Oh, come, let us endure him.
Speaker 2:It's perfect.
Speaker 1:I feel something catastrophic and I looked down Aaron's laughing because he knows what this is. I looked down and I promised before the living Jehovah. The long, velvet black skirt line that I wore was so old that at that precise moment the elastic broke on it All the skirt went to my ankles and I am on two huge screens in the gymnasium with the top on and underwear, but nothing beyond that, because there was no slip, because the skirt was lined.
Speaker 1:And I did what all spiritual leaders do. At that moment I went. You know what do you do when you get mainly in front of your youth group. My two sons were sitting in the room, by the way. Oh, no, made it even worse, so I go running off. I pull up the skirt. No, made it even worse, so I go running off. I pull up the skirt, obviously, go running off. And I'm hiding behind the big pine tree that was part of the decor and I'm yelling at my assistant, who at that point was Jeremy Doard, who went on to ultimately a couple of pastors later become the most amazing senior pastor of what was then Rockford First. Now it's City First, and I'm holding up my skirt and I'm yelling, jer get out there and close it.
Speaker 1:Get out there and close it, because this is the detail I'm not giving you. Yet my interns were running the two cameras that were on tripods. They started laughing so hard. The camera went down and hit an exact angle where, for that brief, painful moment, all the wrong location, all the wrong location, and he's unpathetically yelling, holding up the skirt behind the Christmas tree. Get out there. Get out there, because he's in the front, at the front table with me. I realize he's not hearing me. Where was he, you ask. He was on the gymnasium floor on all fours pounding, laughing so hard. Yes, you know, a fine, loyal team member. Yes, you know a fine, loyal team member.
Speaker 1:Yes, I am laughing. I mean, I'm convinced I would still be hiding behind the tree had I not done something. I have no choice. They're all what? All the name of Christians. So I waddled back out holding my skirt up and all I said was ladies and gentlemen, as we celebrate this year's Christmas, we all have a new meaning to joy to the world. I won't tell you how many years it took me. Wow, enough years. I tell this story.
Speaker 2:Mom, aren't you glad that this happened? Predating social media oh my God.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1:It would have been like listen, people still used it verbally. I was doing a women's banquet or luncheon the next day, same decorations. By that point the rumor was out that the way I built youth ministry attendance was people are delightful, oh come on. At least it's not visually immortalized because that would be, yeah, if someone had that video somewhere yeah.
Speaker 1:There were many years I didn't tell the story. Let's know that Now I'm healed enough that I can tell that, but unfortunately there are several other immortal stories, not with me, going without clothing, but you know, time helps man.
Speaker 3:You got a great one-liner out with the joy of the world thing you gotta be proud of that.
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's a good thing. Thank you, yeah, did that make it in your book?
Speaker 1:genie isms did that no, no, it didn't never, because I didn't want to immortalize, oh only here and on copyright it could be the only immortalization.
Speaker 2:Amazing, amazing. Well we're. We're so glad you're here. Thanks for sharing that incredible story. That, that's that's going to. That's going to bring joy to a lot of youth pastors hearts to the world.
Speaker 3:Right there it is. I'm five years in and I haven't had a wardrobe malfunction, so I think I can be proud of that, you know no, no, stand your ground, caleb.
Speaker 1:Malfunction, so I think I can be proud of that you know.
Speaker 2:No, no, stand your ground, caleb. Stand your ground, that's so good. Um, well, we're excited to have an incredible conversation with your mom. Um, we call this podcast, uh, vitals for youth ministry because, um, for those of you listening, um, on a podcast platform, maybe you're watching on YouTube. Uh, if you're not familiar with vitals for youth mystery, head on over real quick to leadthegenerationcom.
Speaker 2:Check out Vitals. It's a brand new resource of training videos for youth pastors, from the volunteer-level youth pastor all the way through the vocational youth pastor, and it's based around the five Vitals that are found in Acts 2 that we build our ministry around. So the Vitals are biblical truth, spiritual transformation, healthy community, missional living and leadership development. What, caleb, you and I like to say about this podcast is we love to just have incredible guests on the podcast and do a deep dive on one of those vitals. And so, mom, you got incredible amount of experience.
Speaker 2:You could talk about any one of these, I'm sure, but we really want to dive deep with you on the vital of leadership development and just kind of pick your brain and allow you to coach us and coach everyone who's listening or watching, really, on the topic of how do we develop ourselves as leaders. Leadership obviously is a huge topic, right, but how do we grow as leaders? And I think that's one of the things that you have imparted to me the most. When I was in cadre, when I would come back for cadre reunions, when I would have the opportunity to come back and help you know, more recently, serve at some of your cadres Like, I always just felt like man, I'm growing as a leader. This has been incredible. So. So, mom, put your coach hat on for us All right and just coach us it's a Nike hat by the way.
Speaker 3:It's good to have the brand there you go.
Speaker 2:Just walk us through some practical steps or thoughts that you have on how we can develop ourselves as leaders.
Speaker 1:OK, I will. And for those of you doing a visual podcast when you see me with my Kleenex, allergies have become my friend, so I don't want you to think that I'm so touched by the topic that I'm crying, although that might make me seem more anointed.
Speaker 1:So think whatever you want, gosh, you know you could say a million things. The painful truth and, aaron, you and Caleb know it well is the data tells us that really the number one predictor of whether you're good in ministry or great, the number one predictor, often pivots around self-growth and of course there's a great deal of ground to be covered there. Grit, a bunch of things would fall into that category. Uh, being able to exchange your trauma for something purposeful, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:But let me unpack just a few things and it's fun to say that both of you have heard me say the first one when I first started youth ministry, when I hit kind of blah times or just times that't wasn't sure I wanted to go on, I thought all of the problem was spiritual. I would repent for every known and unknown sin. Try fasting a couple of days, you know beating the carpet when I was praying, you know just all of that stuff. But what I came to realize is that I'm a whole person and I have what I call tanks, t-a-n-k-s. So I would say first of all, in self growth, intentionally, be aware of all five tanks and try not to let any of them go empty. So obviously most important one is your spiritual tank.
Speaker 1:Lots of times when we feel like I don't want to go on or I'm such a failure I'm a joke to go on, the real issue is not spiritual I mean, we can always find something to repent over None of us are perfect but spiritual tank, the emotional tank, which is a huge one. Yes, when it comes to gosh, you know most of us don't want to quit right after a great service or after a great win. Right, you know, that's not when you want to say Asta to youth ministry. Number three is the physical one, which, if you're in your 20s, you maybe don't even feel it. By about 35, you start to feel it. Caleb, how old are you? I'm 27.
Speaker 3:Oh, but you have a newborn.
Speaker 2:I did have a newborn.
Speaker 3:So you're feeling it. I'm on less than a week. You're feeling it? Yeah, you are.
Speaker 1:Unless you roll over and let your wife do all the middle of the night. I don't, I don't. I'm good, no, you're good. Okay, but physical, like if you don't get enough sleep two or three days in a row, if you're eating nothing but junk, like. Right before I got on, I had a kind of a hunger for salt and I my assistant moved it out of the way or I'd hold it up. She was afraid you'd hear it. I have potato chips, ruffles, to be exact, you know. Now here's the deal. I can eat junk for a while, but if that becomes my whole 48 hour ritual, I'm gonna. I'm gonna feel a lack of energy, I'm gonna feel blah. I take a million vitamins and I still think that's half the reason, or a lot of the reason, jesus being the big one where I I can still have as much energy as I do. So sleep, the right nutrition, and all of people like the two of you would add exercise. If I said that, I'd be a hypocrite, because I don't.
Speaker 1:Okay so everybody listening to this podcast, spare me the email telling me what good it would do for me. I know it would. I know it would. God bless you. And then, fourth tank is, for me, an important one, the intellectual tank. I need to keep reading, listening to podcasts, so that I feel like I'm thinking some fresh thoughts again. If not intellectually, I go stagnant and then it makes my my giving out stagnant. And the last one is, uh, next to the spiritual and the emotional one, for me a very significant one the relational one. Um, if you know, I'm I'm very vulnerable if someone's close to me and things are off base between us. I, you know, one of the greatest ways to pick myself up is to schedule an appointment with somebody that is replenishing in my life. That's around that I can meet somewhere and have a quick Coke or coffee with, because replenishing people are so invaluable. On the other hand, depleting people, Right right.
Speaker 1:Too many in a row can make the whole service the whole night feel like it was very unworthwhile. So just five tanks. You're never going to keep all five of them peaked, but you can be aware when you start to feel blah. Got any thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Okay, so I I've actually been reading a book called. It's actually was a book for women that I didn't realize until I started reading it. It's called tired of being tired.
Speaker 2:Full disclosure.
Speaker 3:It's by an author named Jess Con connelly and, uh, yeah, she started out. She's like every woman has been tired in their life.
Speaker 1:Oh no, well, it's not every everybody. Yeah, I was like I think I'm reading a book. The title was a uh killer for all of us.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, but I was like okay, because I I felt this where, uh, I I'm not sure why I'm tired. It's like I'm getting good sleep, and so I I think question for you how have you learned to identify which one of your tanks is low Cause? Sometimes I'll feel physically tired, but I actually don't think it's physical exhaustion, so I'm not even necessarily sure Like what is the thing that I need to even raise the level of my tank in? Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's a great question. Does that make sense? Going to be quite aware if I'm still taking a few simple vitamins After that and that's one of the I'm not getting enough sleep, then I'm going to stop to say to myself, caleb, what's going on in my life, either emotionally or relationally. It's going to be one of those, and oftentimes it's just the feeling that I'm going through the motions over and over again nothing much new, nothing much exciting. I think boredom makes many of us go flat almost more than anything else, and I have to, more than anything else, and I have to, at those moments, add some spice to my life, whether it's trying something new, making an appointment with somebody who will be fulfilling for me, and saying to them you know, I just you're so replenishing, I just wanted to hang with you for a while. But emotional tiredness, caleb, will make me feel physically tired. So I get that all the way?
Speaker 2:yeah, mom, do you find that you know, almost, like, I'm almost envisioning like the five tanks is like the five sides of a swimming pool and if, like, if there's like a leak in one side, it's gonna not just drain from that one side but it kind of affects the overall water level? It?
Speaker 1:does it does so?
Speaker 2:do you see a relation or kind of you see? You see all five tanks relating to one another and affecting one another to some degree, much so they start out.
Speaker 1:It starts out by itself, but I think so often we don't stop to to kind of take the pulse on the rhythm of our own life. That make sense. Yeah, because it's busy. We're going from one thing to another, to another, to another, and so, you know, just stopping to say to myself okay, what's going on in the last 24 hours? Yeah, on in the last 24 hours, yeah, what have I felt? What if I had to swallow hard, push down to be able to push through? You know, just again. You know the immortal philosopher who said I think it was aristotle greatest wisdom is know thyself. I and again I, I absolutely agree. They all eventually impact each other, but they usually start more singular and then bump in to the other?
Speaker 2:Have you experienced, you know I mean one of the blessings of like getting on a podcast with someone like you, because you just have a wealth of years of experience. So can you identify like certain seasons in your life where different tanks were hit harder, like it's like the I'm thinking of, like the bivocational volunteer youth pastor out there, or like the youth pastor who's like I got you know five kids, or three kids under the age of five, or something like that? Like different seasons that present different challenges for you? How have you navigated some?
Speaker 1:of that, absolutely Number one. If you're the parents of young children, or a child, caleb, that physical tank is going to be tapped. Unless you're a rotten parent and you never get up in the middle of the night, you're not killed, so you're good. So I certainly know that I, laughingly, would say to myself, especially after my second child, when they were both young Jeannie, you don't have to get saved again, you know, because that's what it felt like. I felt like, oh gosh, I'm, I'm totally out of it. Then for me, I'm aware that, like when my wonderful hero and husband passed away after a stroke and fluid body dementia, huge't. Take these feelings, I mean, process them, but don't immortalize them in stone. When I messed up and we all mess up I had to say to myself, when it stung so badly and I apologized, repented, done whatever I had to do, jeannie, I had to say to myself self-talk is so huge. Um, learn the lessons, but forget the details. And I messed up. So you know, they're all. We all have vulnerabilities in our life. You have to know what yours is.
Speaker 1:I am a two on the Enneagram, aaron. You've heard me say this so many times. Everybody goes. No, you're not mom, you're a three. You're an executive one. No, no, I'm a two wing three and I've developed three, the executive wing. So much I fool all of you. I am a feeler. I want to please all of you. Let's lean in. Aaron and Caleb, am I pleasing the two of you now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're supposed to say.
Speaker 3:yes, caleb, that was a little oh yes, best friends are two twos of the best.
Speaker 1:I love getting along with twos.
Speaker 3:Thank you. What are you? I'm a three. I'm a three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, every, everything leak is a three I, I. So, yes, I have to realize again during certain seasons, and and again you have to know thyself, again, you have to know where you're vulnerable. Yeah, and that would almost let me jump to another. Yeah, Wait can?
Speaker 3:I pause you before we go there really quick.
Speaker 1:Please pause me.
Speaker 3:Because I have one of the things you said at the very beginning, where you're like not everything was a spiritual issue and I was like, oh man, that's so, that's so good Cause I think I tend to feel that way where it's like it's God mad at me for this, or am I doing a good job?
Speaker 3:It's like whenever one of those tanks goes low, I think I tend to go there and I think it was my dad who said sometimes you just need some good food and a good nap before you make any ministry conclusions. But yeah, like the spiritual issue thing, can you expand upon that? I think there's probably a lot of youth pastors that feel that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and here's the people who feel that way, and I would be in this group. If you deem yourself to be pretty conscientious, obviously, caleb, that would be you, and Aaron too, it certainly would be myself. I can be my own worst enemy. And so again, especially true for the conscientious ones among us, because we're never going to, analytically in our mind, do enough, be righteous enough, pray enough, read enough, have the youth ministry, be strong enough, disciple enough, help enough kids. Enough is not in my vocabulary if I listen to the enemy in my mind. And so I would say to you and, by the way, the enough word, I think, takes a lot of people out of ministry, Caleb, yeah, because nobody quits when they're feeling like they're doing great, yeah, right. But when it's just an impossible mountain you keep sliding down off of, you give up and you think I'll go sell insurance At least. I could maybe do okay there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there actually has been that, that, that that feeling of like man. It'd be nice to do something where you feel like you've just you've completed it, because there's never that arrival in in ministry.
Speaker 1:Are you kidding?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's there. That's like, ah, like my wife has real estate and it's like when she sells a house it's like boom, you did it, you did it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you can try selling a student Caleb, but I think it gets you.
Speaker 3:Sometimes parents have tried to sell me their student. I have never thought about it like that, that that yeah, enough, is not even a word you can put in your book.
Speaker 1:No, no enough is a cuss word that the enemy uses in our head. Wow, and if you're conscientious, you probably everything. Well, because the enemy knows we're most vulnerable on the please jesus part, yeah, so he will keep funneling everything back that way, if we allow it.
Speaker 3:Wow, this is why we got Jeannie on the podcast today to make us just pause and say I need to go process that I have a journal session coming up after this. Pray through that, for a little bit.
Speaker 2:I have deeply struggled and, of course, mom, you know this, we've. You know, you've just been an incredible voice in my life for years now. But I have deeply struggled in various seasons of life ministry and even my marriage. And just be transparent about this, because Julie and I talk about this a lot but being enough, am I good enough? Did I do good enough? Will I ever be?
Speaker 2:You know all of those questions that the enemy plagues us with and, man, I think it is important and you've used the phrase like you know, know yourself or be conscientious of who you are. We probably all have a. You know we're talking about the five tanks. We probably all have one of those tanks. That is the vulnerable point or more vulnerable than the others, absolutely, and the enemy knows that, yeah, and he's going to come after us in that specific area, right, and he uses that in order to trip us up. That's the reason why we have to have moments like this where we're talking about OK, how do I keep growing as a leader? How do I grow in these areas? What are some practical steps that I can take? So I'm grateful for this conversation, mom. I know you have a whole list of things you could tell us what's. A couple other thoughts you have to help us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry, I interrupted.
Speaker 1:This is good. And let me throw one more enough thing in that I think especially men deal with as a provider for their household.
Speaker 1:I'll never make enough salary yeah yeah, because there's tremendous weight to pay the bills and if your wife happens to be making more than you or you are not able to give your children all the things you would love to give them, gosh, that's another one. So immaterial, just let it turn in. So many other things I want to say I guess I would take us to and this is a little simple if you want to be a self-leader, number two I would say is decide what you're willing to fail at. Again, conscientious people that we are, that's hard that's really hard, and by fail.
Speaker 1:Some people resist the word fail, so change it in your mental framework if you need to, to decide what you're willing to, not be a 10 pointer at Maybe an eight. The point is that and we all know this not to decide is to decide. I made a decision early on. By God's grace and it's only by his grace I was going to be a good Christian. Now, that doesn't mean perfect. That means you know, I often say Jesus is interested not in perfection but in direction, and I was going to have a quiet time when I didn't feel like it. For me you've heard me say a million times here five out of seven days a week is a successful week. Even if they're short, I'm going to have an appointment time with him. Even if they're shorter, I'm going to stay real Christian. I'm going to.
Speaker 1:No matter what happens in ministry and we all have some moments that feel brutally unfair I'm still going to love the local church. I'm not going to love the local church. I'm not going to let myself become this cynical, resentful person. So, number one I'm going to love Jesus. Number two for me, on what I'm not willing to fail at, I wasn't willing to fail as a wife and then notice that I put mother third. I just know that a lot of women meaning so well, and I get it, I'm very maternal almost when kids come become a great mom but leave their husbands emotionally out to dry and and certainly there's balance there, especially when the kids are very young, you know, and a mom feels like are you kidding, this child wants to have food again. I mean, I won't even go any further with that, but the reality is I just said I'm going to you know you've heard me say it many times here. I'm going to you know you've heard me say it many times here my barometer for success was that those who love me best and knew me best pardon me knew me best love me most. So that was my real ministry began when I pulled in the driveway not everybody to kind of listen.
Speaker 1:I in Illinois, when we were there, I had a piece of paper that I hung outside in my garage on the door that opened to my kitchen. When I parked my car in the garage I'd open the kitchen and it was initial, so nobody else knew what I meant to me, but it stood for something remotely like this Jeannie, if you're giving the family inside your emotional leftovers, you need to quit the ministry. I didn't say the words, but I knew the initials were and it was my everyday reminder suck it up, buttercup. Yeah, suck it up. Yeah, you know, don't give them the emotional leftovers. Chase around the couch when they're little.
Speaker 2:You know loudly one of my uh, one of my professors, and when I was in college and my professor of youth ministry, very similar to what you just said, mom, with the, the little sign on the door, you're, you know, going into your house to remind you. He said to me, when you pull you, when you're walking into your house and you pull your keys out to, you know, put it into the door to turn it. He said, tell yourself I'm turning on my best for my family right now. Wow, and I did that. Just that little visual, same concept, right, that little visual helped me so much to remember, like, okay, you know, not the leftovers, here we go. This is, you know, my, especially when my kids were young.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as as a new dad, that's. That's something I can no longer get away with without consequence, because whenever I was just, it was me and my wife, who also is engaged in the youth ministry, so I could sit there and we could talk youth ministry the whole night and it'd be a great night. I can't do that anymore because emotionally, I'm spent and I yeah, I as I come home and I'm like I have to be part of this, I'm realizing more and more I get only six weeks in. It's like, oh, I just can't do that anymore. You know, not only can I not do that, I don't even really want to do that Cause like having this little guy. It's like this is my priority too, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Mom, you said something a moment ago I want to circle back to. You said protecting your heart from cynicism. I've heard you say at different cadres and different settings, where I've heard you say something to the effect. I'm probably slightly misquoting you, but the concept I think is accurate. I've heard you say things like one of your greatest accomplishments as a Christian leader will be finishing your race without giving in to cynicism. Can you practically unpack it for us or just coach us a little bit, because I think this is a growing epidemic of an issue in the church world, especially because in the last 10 to 15 years with social media, it's just so much easier to be more cynical because there's more information, we have more data.
Speaker 3:We can hear more stories.
Speaker 1:There's a loud minority that will talk yeah absolutely, and I agree that the minority is growing, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, I can talk about that. Here's the deal. There is a bullseye on everybody's spiritual chest who wants to do something, whether it's as a volunteer or full time, for the kingdom of God. I mean, we all know the scripture. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers. We've all got it. I think we need to realize that if the enemy can anoint a series of thoughts that make me wounded and it usually starts with a wound Cynicism usually comes from a place of that wasn't fair.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Or that very much hurt, or whoa, somebody put me under the bus and I didn't deserve that.
Speaker 1:Matter of fact, I was especially good to them and they're putting me under the bus. And then you wait for the white magic savior to come in on a horse and defend you, and an awful lot of times some well-meaning people you thought would have your back would say do not. And I think part of the reason Aaron is and I'm not saying always, but this is such a lawsuit generation that I think constant concern by many leaders of oh my goodness, if I defend them, could I be taken to court, could the church come under fire? I mean, we all saw this as cancel culture, pete, and it's still, though we don't hear the term cancel culture near as much. The reality is, social media makes every day vulnerable for canceling, and the other truth is that the best of us can be lied about, right, and I really want to say that I had lived my life by the principle of trying not to let your good be evil spoken of. But boy, anything can be twisted.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so for me, here's my answer, as I've watched people who became disillusioned with the church, they usually started by saying I'm not going back to church, but I'm still loving Jesus, I'm still loving God. Sometimes they transferred from Jesus to God. That seemed a little easier. My experience tells me, aaron, that that doesn't work for long. Because it's like that doesn't work for long. Because it's like, if you have animosity towards one of my children and you feel it deeply and you keep feeding it, eventually that's going to make you distant from me, because you know how I feel about my own kids.
Speaker 1:And the word of God says clearly that the church is his bride of God, says clearly that the church is his bride. And just as Sam Mayo would have stopped anybody who during the wedding they used to and this is so old timey, you guys recognize it In our wedding the preacher said does anyone here in this congregation have reason why the two should not be joined together? Now, thank God they got rid of that stupid line, but they said it. In our wedding it was still common. If somebody would have spoken up and said something negative about me, sam would have blasted them and in like manner. I think God is just that much of a guardian over his church, his bride, much of a guardian over his church, his bride.
Speaker 1:And so again, I forgive, not because I think what they did was not horribly wrong or not because I wasn't deeply wounded. I forgive because I love Jesus and so I know that sounds so simple, but I will tell you. If you said to me what's been the toughest part of the ministry in the recent two decades, including my husband's early promotion and some other stupid things, that's been the toughest part. I'm not going to let myself be cynical and I am going to be part of a local church and I'm going to give grace, because here's the whopper Aaron. The Bible says with the same measure, I give grace, jesus will give grace to me, and I'm going to need bucket loads when I get there.
Speaker 1:So for me it's, but again it's been the biggest bumping point and that, putting it mildly, in the last couple of decades.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this whole thing you've been talking about really like to go to kind of broad overview of this point you were making is really like the things that you want to be prioritized that help keep you grounded, right. Yeah, I think that's. I think it's phenomenal. I seriously I'm like very few times in this podcast have I just been like dude, just take it in. I'm just like taking notes, yeah, and like really it's, it's, oh, it's all so good and I also it's it's insightful hearing all this too, because I have friends who are in that place that I, or even even leaders who I can see are teetering there, that I don't want to see you go down that road, cause I also know it's. You know bitterness is it's not my line, but bitterness is like drinking poison and expecting it to hurt the other person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like the same way when you're cynical you know it only hurts you, it only damages you, and I've been there too. I get what that's like. We even had a whole conversation about the way I was cynical about certain things. Yeah, that it was like, dude, what is this even doing for you other than slowing you down?
Speaker 2:And it's like you're right. I think, mom, one of the things I've always appreciated about your leadership and your voice in my life and so many others is the call back to some of the roots and the basics of the faith, like loving Jesus, being in the word five out of seven days a week. And here we are saying and I'm asking a practical leadership question, how do I deal with cynicism? And it's like, yeah, it's called forgiveness, right, and? But it is easy. I think the longer you are in in the faith, the longer you're in church leadership at any level, whether it's vocational staff church leadership or whether it's long-term volunteer level, you know, the longer you're in leadership, the longer you're living life, the more life gets life in on you, the more humanity you experience and you rub shoulders with and the greater our capacity for forgiveness has to come as a leader. You know you just, I have to grow in forgiveness and I have to grow in my ability to forgive more and more quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those are the biggest growth moments for me as a youth pastor was the really painful wounds that I had to deal with. That, on the other end, I look back and it's like, wow, that was actually exactly what God wanted me to go through, because now either I'm more resilient and I'm able to see things differently, or I have way more grace Because I saw myself in that person who did that to me.
Speaker 1:Well, will you let me, can I at least touch on one more thing that goes?
Speaker 2:with all this. I was going to ask you to touch on more, so go for it. This is great. I could sit here all day. There are a million things I could say I'm not going to make it through my notes.
Speaker 1:So forgive me, this is not an all-inclusive on self-leadership, but we pointed it towards especially dealing with some of the emotional stuff to lead yourself. And by the way, on the forgiveness thing, aaron, people say to me what's the biggest muscle you have to grow to stay in ministry? And I say you're forgiver and so. But let me say number three to lead yourself and stay in the game long haul. Don't ignore your emotions when your heart gets smashed. Don't ignore your emotions when your heart gets smashed. Don't ignore your emotions when your heart gets smashed. And you've heard me talk about this before. I see a counselor, christian counselor, about once a month when I'm going through some really hard times, like Sam's death. I saw her every week, but she said this to me early on. She said, jeannie, she calls it the trauma triangle and she says call trauma not just if somebody sexually abused you or whatever. Trauma is when something hits us that we weren't expecting. That's of significant stuff, so that can be a million things. That's not just sexual somebody being a predator in the sake of something sexual. Having said that and so because of that, different degrees of trauma we all deal with. And in the trauma triangle. She said give each of the three points in the triangle a name, no particular order. One would be the victim, the person who gets hurt. Another would be the predator, the person who does hurting, and the third would be the rescuer, which is what we are so many times. We're the person they come to. Let me tell you the problem. Help me work my way through this. We're the rescuer. But she said an interesting thing. She said at some point, jeannie, the victim, who is already certainly understood, blamed, use any language you want the predator, because you know you're not just blind to it. You see what the person did. You've already had some negative energy there. You've probably tried to process or something. But here's and please get this at some point the victim has to own emotional responsibility for the negative cycle of emotions within themselves, not responsibility for what happened. So like I'm not taking responsibility for what happened, so like I'm not taking responsibility for whatever they did that hurt me At some point, whether it's a month or a year after the trauma, I've got to say nobody's going to make me okay again if I don't own what's going on inside of me. That's the important thing. And and here's the catch, and this is such a big deal. She says if we as a victim we're all victims at times do not own that, then what will happen is our negative energy will then switch from the predator but we've already kind of punished in our own mind and go to the rescuer. And she says that's why and I'll take it this way, caleb, that's why so many of us in youth ministry say that kid said that about me. I was really good to that kid, or that parent, I took special care of them. Uh, or on and on, the list goes of who. Because somewhere through there, in some of our own hurts, trauma, whatever we want to call it we, we fail to eventually not the first week, the first month, even all the time own. Okay, how am I going to deal with, how am I going to process this? How am I going to give this pain purpose? And when we don't, invariably the rescuer who we are in most cases becomes a predator. And so let me just say this and I love this and I don't mean to be too preachy Understand that the aches in our heart, what Psalms calls the laments, is the only thing that God, the Father, keeps count of.
Speaker 1:He doesn't keep track of our sins.
Speaker 1:He says in Hebrews 8, 12, I forgive their sins and remember them no more.
Speaker 1:He doesn't even keep track of our good works.
Speaker 1:I wish he did.
Speaker 1:Isaiah 64, 6 says our righteous works are as filthy rags. But he says in Psalms 56, 8, we all know it. You, o Lord, keep track of my sorrows, my laments. You have collected all my tears in your bottle. You record them in your book. And that is huge for me to know.
Speaker 1:To stay in the game, self-leadership, to say you know what? That was humongously unfair, that was a lie, that was a betrayal. But, lord, you not only see it, but you cherish every tear. And that sounds so female, but it is so humanity, it's not just female, and so for me it's being aware, processing, like Caleb. A minute ago you said well, I'm going to take some time to journal on this and working through. Nobody can take all the aches of our heart because you just read Tale of Three Kings or Prisoner of the Third Cell, read that one, and you go oh my gosh, there's what's found right there. Thank you, gene Edwards. But you know to realize not just in a little Christianese way that, gosh, he cares so much about you that, though the other people didn't defend you, he is, he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Isn't it amazing to be reminded and this is what you're doing for us in this conversation and I'm so grateful for it it's amazing to be reminded of biblical truth, simple truth, like what you just said God is collecting my tears, right or where the psalmist says he's close to the brokenhearted right, and it's I mean you can make a case biblically that God is closest to us in our grief and in our trauma and in our pain than at any other time. And that flies in the face of like popular leadership theory, american culture, american church culture, because that culture is telling us that God is closest to us or most proud of us when we are performing at our highest level, when our life and ministry is the most fruitful, when all five tanks are as full as they possibly can be Right. And then the scripture comes along and it's like no, god's actually he's. He's most attracted to you in your brokenness and in your grief.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah you go.
Speaker 1:You'll see that with your new baby and Aaron already has If they get hurt, every parent urge comes out in you. Yeah, and you know, as the baby grows up and Aaron understands this, he has a young adult children. You never. That never stops, it never goes away. I've got two adult sons who I adore and yet, gosh, I you know I would rather have my life be be shattered rather than theirs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, yeah, I can't, I'm just processing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think I tend to be such a doer that I get, so in my doing that I just miss just even being with God. And I think the offense thing too it's. I think sometimes I want to hold on to the offense, so much so because it feels like I, I deserve this, I, I should be mad absolutely right and I, I I hate feeling like somebody's either wronged me or something's unfair, something maybe that's being the fourth child, five. That's not fair and I grew up that way, but that really bothers me.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I know, holding onto it is is. It's just painful for me, um, and that God wants me to bring that to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good, that's really good. What? What you're really talking about? That we the word, the phrase that we would use in our culture often is is victim mentality, right? You're talking about us having a victim mentality as leaders. What are some signs to me as a leader that I'm struggling with a bit of a victim mentality? What are some red flags?
Speaker 1:Oh, I can tell you easily, because certainly I've never dealt with this. I've read about this in books. I've read about this in books.
Speaker 2:For me it's when I replay moments when I was done wrong over and over and over in my head and you rehearse how you should have responded or how you wanted to respond.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, you re-litigate it. I should have said that I'm so good at this.
Speaker 1:That's the shower thought that's exactly it.
Speaker 3:I wish.
Speaker 1:I would have said that I re-litigate it and then I for me also I get loose lips. I'm not going to tell everybody and certainly there's a place to confide in somebody you trust and be part of the body of Christ and healing to you. But when I'm picking up a fence boy it is going to be very painful for you to think well of that person. I may not tell you everything, but I will allow my voice to change so that they are suspect in your mind. You know kind of the old, if you knew what I knew, sort of deal you know, and sometimes we even call it prayer requests.
Speaker 2:You just need to pray for them. I don't really want to say much about it. Yeah, I can't say anymore.
Speaker 1:I can't say anymore. That's exactly it. And one other thing offense drains me of emotional energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Anger. It puts my adrenaline back up again, but then it's kind of when I say okay, I turn loose in this. One other thing that I know you will both be surprised that I have so many carnal intuition. But I remind myself that the Bible Jesus says that if I'm trying to take offense he's not going to defend me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And gosh that I know he's better at it than me. Yeah, so you know my little carnal side ghost. Go get him, holy spirit, right, go get him because, because you'll get even a lot better than I will.
Speaker 2:That's terrible to admit, but nonetheless, it's true that is hard. I mean it's when you, when you've been wronged and you've and sense of like, I've been wronged and I deserve or demand justice for how I've been wronged. It is hard to then allow the scripture to speak to my situation, where God says vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Right. It might have been you, mom. Saith the Lord Absolutely Right, and I, I, I don't. It might've been you, mom. You might've said it to me once. When you know, in some of the difficult seasons and ministry moments that my wife and I have been through, we've talked through a lot of those. It might've been someone else, I don't remember. But someone at some point said to me like like that verse is God saying to you if you'll let me handle the justice part of it, I'll do it with the perfect measure of truth and grace, or justice and grace. But if you want to do that on your own, go for it. But you're probably going to get it wrong and in some instances you're going to be too full of truth and too much justice, and in other instances you're going to be too full of grace and God's the only one that can judge correctly and and and perfectly balanced.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so. So for for a young leader, what would your advice be, maybe even looking back on when you were, you know, at first getting started? What would what would your advice be for someone trying to let go of things like that that maybe they're holding on to, or yeah, good question.
Speaker 1:Well, number one it was interesting, caleb, that early on you talked about journaling. One of the biggest things I do when I'm wounded is to journal. My journal is to the Lord. I word it that way. I tell my sons that if you publish my journal when I die, you're going to go to hell. I do not mean for anybody else. When they published Mother Teresa's, I thought, well, that's the lowest thing they could ever do. But you know anyway. But I process and everybody has different ways of doing it. But I, I pour out on my laptop screen, uh, in a secret file, and uh, gosh, I have four years and that's very helpful to me.
Speaker 1:Number two two I um do something often not always physical, caleb um, if it's something big like we have a place Stone Mountain Park and that park is not necessary. But on more than one occasion I've taken a walk there and I've taken a couple of little sticks and tied them together and taken a piece of paper and ripped it Literally. It was just this humble in kind, of like this makeshift tombstone, and written on the tombstone IJM. I don't put my names hereby turn loose of what initials, and I know it's so childish, but there is something that is healing in symbolism. And then I just stick the stupid little hand. Nothing, no cross is stupid, but my attempt is stupid. The little cross on the ground and and say, lord, this is my stake in the ground. I need your help on this.
Speaker 1:And then one other thing killed forgiveness for something big. It's like a blister. If you pop it, the infection moves out slowly. It doesn't just pop and suddenly all gone it, it slowly cleans itself out. That's what any infectious wound does. That's why you take an antibiotic. And so there's.
Speaker 1:It's not like I say I forgive and the pain all goes away, but it will be directly proportional to how much I own it in my head. I have to process it. So it's not like I pretend like nothing ever happened that hurt me. But then, as I'm processing, especially my journal to Jesus and talking to him, eventually I have to and I always call it remove and replace you remove the weeds in your thoughts and replace it with something else, because the best way to have a healthy grass lawn is to not have open places where wounds or weeds can go. And and so gosh, caleb, if I have to sing Christmas carols to myself, I don't care what I'm doing. I mean, and sometimes my replacement mechanism is ridiculous. It's not near as spiritual as some people might think. Obviously, the Word of God is your greatest replacement, but there are several times that I'm not spiritual enough to even do that. But I get to sing Joy to the World or something.
Speaker 3:I love that physical aspect. There's even some things I'm thinking about now. There's probably some past hurts that I feel like I've forgiven, but there's probably still lingering that I need to go do something like that with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, mom, have you ever read Archie Kendall's book? God meant it for good.
Speaker 1:Of course I have. How many times do you?
Speaker 2:think I've read it Once a year, like like me probably. Yeah, his section at the end of that book on total forgiveness and Joseph modeling that to his brothers is breathtaking. It is it changed my view on what it meant for me to personally offer total forgiveness to someone who has hurt me.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm writing that book down, and I think it's RT Kendall who wrote the separate short book he did.
Speaker 2:It's actually called Total Forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2:As if the first one wasn't convicting enough. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:I was convicted over number one. Then I read number two.
Speaker 2:Exactly Got, it Got it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, RP Kendall, Proving my belief that the old guys are so much more profound than many of us are now. I wonder if I'm a real Christian after I read these guys.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you do, you do.
Speaker 1:And I don't even start on thinning, do you?
Speaker 2:have time, Mom, to give us one more coaching tip on self-leadership. Oh my gosh, I would love it.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at my notes tip on self-leadership I would love it. I'm looking at my notes. Holy Spirit, help me find the one because unfortunately, like always, there is more there than what I will get.
Speaker 2:Which is one of the things I always love about you, is that you model what it looks like to not just prepare well, but to over-prepare. I've always loved that about your leadership.
Speaker 1:Thank you, aaron. Can I hug you, because that's a flaw for me and then in my notes? It's like cutting off an arm when you don't at all, and I think, oh my. God, one more thing I'm going to tell you. Here's the deal. I'm going to tell you a story from my last point.
Speaker 2:OK, love it. Story time with mom. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Story time with mom. You know you're hearing schmaltzy music in the background. True story appeared in a magazine years ago. A man was writing about his t-ball experience and I want to share part of the article with you. He says this guy I certainly didn't know him.
Speaker 1:My young five-year-old son played t-ball this past summer and in case you're not familiar with t-ball, caleb, you're going to know this. It is the bottom step in the 20 rung ladder leading to the major ball field. As a matter of fact, there are only two teams in t-all with little young kids 25 kids often on each team. He had two teams in his town and T-Ball parents can be friendly to each other until the game starts. Anyway, this guy says he's watching his young son play T-Ball. This guy says he's watching his young son play t-ball and this past summer I had an experience because the other t-ball team had a little girl that he named fictitiously Tracy. Tracy came every week and she always played because her son's team his son's team always played against the same team the other team and she wasn't very good. She wore Coke-like bottle glasses very thick, had hearing aids in both ears and when she attempted to run, had great physical impairments and it was obviously mental disabilities as well. Mental disabilities as well. And she ran kind of a carefree way, pulling kind of one arm and leg after she would run it. Everybody in the bleachers, from both teams, cheered for Tracy when she got up. No matter how horribly she did, she never hit the ball all season.
Speaker 1:So they're coming in to the very last game of the season and you know, tracy got up to bat and then by some fluke she smoked the ball right up the middle of the field through the legs of 17 other little T-ball players who didn't know what to do if a ball was really coming near them. And once the ball reached around center field there was no one to stop it there. And so her coach her little volunteer coach is young run, tracy, run. And all the parents then start echoing run, tracy, run. And they were yelling and so tr turned, smiled at all the parents, happy to please. She galloped off to first base and stopped. And then the ball is still ambling. The kids don't know what to do. So again, run, tracy, run. By this time she's halfway to second. But they can't hold on to the ball to get it to the right people Because in T-ball every member of the defending team has to touch the ball, so you know it's, oh my good Lord.
Speaker 1:So the ball begins to make its very long journey towards home plate. Tracy gets to third base, the adults are screaming like Tracy go, tracy, tracy go. And the coach is just crazy, you know, and even the other team. They're not yelling for the kids to get an out, they just want Tracy, come on, tracy, come on, home run. So Tracy starts for home and then it happens During the pandemonium nobody's noticed that there is an old, stray dog that was laying right near the baseline and about only about four, four feet from the baseline.
Speaker 1:And as Tracy left third base and rounded to go to home plate, the dog had awakened because of all the noise and it sat up and it was wagging its tail and Tracy, as Tracy headed down the baseline, coming into home plate and the doggy tongue hung out and the mouth pulled back and kind of what would have been an unmistakable dog smile. And Tracy stopped right there by the dog, 30 feet from a legitimate home run, and she looked at the dog and she heard the voices still screaming from the stands go, tracy, go, you've almost got a home run. Go, tracy go. And then she looked back at the dog again and then everything went into slow motion. It happened. She bent down and went for the dog, and then there was stinging silence for just a moment. And then the crowd, as though they recognized what had happened, tracy, still on her knees hugging the nameless dog, started cheering for her.
Speaker 1:And why would I tell you this story? As we're talking about self-leadership, what's this got to do with making it through all the seasons of ministry life, when you're overwhelmed, you're tired, you're demotivated, you're guilty all of that. And you just referenced a little earlier Aaron. Our society, even in the church world, tells all of us to go to home plate, go for home plate. We bought our strategy. Nothing wrong with that. And your friends are non-verbally saying run, christian, run, especially your senior pastor and your spiritual coaches run, christian, run, run. But sometimes we forget to tell you that, no matter how spiritual you are, there will be great moments, if you want to stay in the game, where you have to stop and remember that your Heavenly Father is crazy about you and that your performance never is really tied to his love. And you have to go for the dog and you plop down. And I love Hebrews 12, 12. And I think this is a message translation you plop down, doing whatever's fun for you, whether it's for me it's shopping at Altered State or, you know, reading, doing a golf game, whatever it is, I love. Hebrews 12, 12.
Speaker 1:I take a new grip with my tired hands. I stand firm on my shaky legs. I mark out a straight, smooth path for my feet so that all that follow after me, the weak and lame themselves, will not fall and hurt themselves, but will eventually become strong. So I guess my last bit of advice is and certainly this could be a whole topic let yourself have some chill time, even if it's something as minor as put on your calendar, right, committed to two hours a week, and don't tell people what it is, just to do. What's replenishing for you? Go for the dog, go for the dog. And when you occasionally give yourself the ability to do that, whatever the dog is for you, gosh, you have the energy to stay in the game log hole.
Speaker 3:Wow, love it. Yeah, it's interesting in ministry that we're so focused on other people. It can be easy to miss yourself kind of in the process, or miss the moment. Or miss the moment in the process, yeah, yeah, because you care so much about others, you're like, ah, this is what I was called to do. You can kind of miss that side of it too.
Speaker 2:If you're a driven leader and you have even if you have good, healthy, godly ambition right, that drive at times will cause you to miss the moment. I got to get home, I got to, we got to. This is my moment, you know. We got to finish this deal, we got to grind, let's go. And so we miss that moment, whether it's a moment for ourselves or whether it's a moment for a student. Yeah, you know, I think I was oftentimes sadly guilty, as a youth pastor, of being so driven for whatever was happening that night in that service, or my sermon, or our production, or whatever we had going on for the, the big event, and I was oftentimes so driven that I I missed students in the process and missed those moments, those relationship moments before service, during after. I'm just, I'm focused. I gotta, you know, we gotta get there.
Speaker 1:I hear that. But even beyond students, to take a little time for yourself, I just have to remind myself. All the decades in full-time ministries taught me that life will schedule the hard times I don't have to schedule those in True. But I will probably have to schedule the good times, yeah, and so just even a couple of hours each week that I can go read a book at a coffee shop and do nothing and turn my phone off and not feel guilty for it for a couple of hours. You know it.
Speaker 2:it's just simple stuff for me on this podcast. We never, never miss the dog.
Speaker 1:That's why he's right here he's right there, I know I, I thought that is. I watched him. Aaron, is that your? Dog, this is my dog okay, I was hoping it was yeah, he will not allow us to miss him. He's like yeah, no, I'm no.
Speaker 2:I think that's awesome oh, mom, thank you so much. This has been so rich and just deep and meaningful and I'm sure it has, uh, has and will be incredibly encouraging to everyone who listens or watches and just, um, and like you said, caleb, this is one of these conversations where you just kind of like I'm probably gonna have to rewind that and listen to that one part again and then I need to kind of sit with that principle or sit with that thought and journal that out a little bit and so, um, I'm really grateful for your time, mom. Thanks so much for joining hey.
Speaker 1:will you give your queen my love?
Speaker 2:I absolutely will. You know she's. She is with the grandkids right now, so she's not missing the moment.
Speaker 1:Just you know not at all, which is so awesome, and congrats on the baby again, kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're having a big deal hey mom for for people that are listening and they want to reach out to you. Find you where, where are you at on social or email? These?
Speaker 1:days. Oh, it's all. Jeannie Mayo, j-e-a-n-n-e-m-a-y-o or JeannieMayocom, it's all there.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome. So you make it easy for you, to everyone who's watching, to connect with you, and for those of you that are just a part of the lead, the gen fam, and you love this podcast, do us a favor, spread the word, give us a great review, hit that subscribe button on YouTube If you're watching on YouTube, and we're glad that you joined us for this conversation, mom again honored, Thank you Thank you thanks for being such an incredible voice of encouragement to not just us, but to thousands of leaders around the world for decades now.
Speaker 2:What an honor. We love you, we appreciate you love you both.
Speaker 1:And hey, caleb, tell your family because they're all so massively amazing that I sent my love.
Speaker 3:Absolutely OK so good.
Speaker 1:Hey, your brother when I spoke there gave me Nikes.
Speaker 3:one time, when I that's right, there we go, and that's, that's a love language in and of itself.
Speaker 1:It's, it's, it's absolute beauty.
Speaker 2:All right friends. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Vitals for Youth History podcast. Look forward to seeing you on the next one. See you, Bye.
