Vitals for Youth Ministry
Welcome to the Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast. Vitals for youth ministry is a biblical framework based out of Acts 2:42-46, developed by Lead The Generation that trains youth leaders to build a local church youth ministry focused on developing students into healthy disciples.
In this podcast we will focus on the topics and issues most relevant to leadership in Youth Ministry. The Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast is hosted by Eran Holt, founder of Lead The Generation & Caleb Leake, Youth Pastor at Allison Park Church in Pittsburgh, Pa.
Vitals for Youth Ministry
The Power of Daily Denial, Dying to Dreams, & Following Up Encounters with Action
Spiritual transformation begins with teaching students to deny themselves before they can truly follow Jesus. We've often emphasized the "follow" part without properly teaching the denial that must come first.
• The importance of denying oneself as the foundation for spiritual transformation
• How youth pastors often focus on attraction rather than transformation
• Why students need to be challenged to surrender before pursuing dreams
• Signs of authentic transformation include changed thinking and different choices
• Action after encounter is a key indicator of genuine transformation
• Small groups provide vital spaces for students to articulate their faith journey
• Simple practices like highlighted Bibles and prayer guides foster transformation
• Public declarations of faith significantly impact students' spiritual development
Whether you're a full-time youth pastor or a volunteer leader, this conversation will equip you with both theological depth and practical tools to foster lasting spiritual transformation in your ministry. What happens when students truly learn to deny themselves? The Kingdom of God comes alive.
But like I've done with this generation man like they, like there needs to be a sense of action that leads to and that's proof positive, of spiritual transformation. It's kind of like the woman at the well thing you know what I mean Like, yeah, she has this encounter with Jesus and then immediately she goes back to the capitalist you know the 10 cities that she knew people in and she starts sharing there's action after encounter people in and she starts sharing there's action after encounter. So the way I've seen that happen is like students leaving services and going. I'm going to. I'm going to begin to anoint my house with oil. Students leaving services are going. I'm going to. I have prayers. I just wrote down over my, my mom and dad, my brother and my sister. I have a friend, I am tech. I wrote up a text I'm going to send as soon as services over. I'm recording my testimony, I'm posting it live. As soon as service is over, I'm recording my testimony, I'm posting it live. It's happening tomorrow, you know, just decisions after encounter, action after encounter.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, Welcome to Vitals for Youth from Street. Podcast from Lead the Generation. So glad to be with you today. My name is Aaron, director of Lead the Generation. I got Caleb Leak with me in the studio.
Speaker 3:Heck yeah, feeling good on a Monday or whenever you're watching. I hope it's a great day.
Speaker 2:It's a Monday for us, but we're glad that you're joining us today. Hey, we got an incredible guest today. Caleb Peter Reeves is here with us. One of my favorite humans in the world right here.
Speaker 3:That's eye status. You've never said that for any other guests.
Speaker 2:I feel like I say that for every guest. I don't. I'm sorry, peter, this is really true, I guess. I guess you know the Bible says that like like out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks so um so stop, keep it going, keep it going, let's go.
Speaker 2:Um, peter man, just real quick, before we jump we jump in for people that may not know you tell us a little bit about yourself, your wife, your kids, just some of the real basics, just so people can get to know a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 1:Man. I have the most amazing wife in the world, Been married for 10 years.
Speaker 3:Oh, let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have two little ones, a four-year-old and a two-year-old, that God gave to us that we're ready to give back at any time. That's crazy man. I am an evangelist and a teaching pastor. I'm based here in Orlando, florida, at Faith Assembly. So Faith Assembly Church out here, and I love it, love it, love what I do and just thankful to be on the pod man. This is awesome. Heck.
Speaker 3:Yeah, bro, excited to have you and something we love having you know youth pastors on, youth evangelists on is because everybody in youth ministry has that story.
Speaker 3:It's like impossible to be around middle school high schoolers and not even reflect on you, because sometimes it's like not even the middle schoolers but it's like youth pastors just being an absolute idiot, and so I would love to hear your story Like what is your youth ministry story that you would share at the dinner table to one up every year. Their youth pastor of like this is how bad it got.
Speaker 1:You know, definitely was that youth ministry that was tried to attract kids by doing crazy things. And so you know, youth ministry eight, 10 years ago. We're like yo, if we're going to have a bomb youth night, we need a car smash. So for weeks on end I'm trying to get a car, like I'm calling different junkyards, I'm calling people in the church, we need a car. We need a car because this is how we're going to get a thousand kids in a broken, smash car. And so one of my students hits me up and he's like yo, I got like a car that you guys can smash, like it's going to be fine. And like this car, you know, if I can get it to start, I'll bring it, it's going to be awesome. So I'm like, all right, sweet man, like bring the car by. I have a couple of my intern guys check it out. They're like this is going to be incredible.
Speaker 3:Okay, wait, wait, wait about this is he like yeah, we're on board, he's good, he's?
Speaker 1:okay, okay, wow, good for you. Find the car man like let's do it, you're in the one percent right there. So, um, yeah, I sent it in an email and I'm like if he reads it, great, if he doesn't I should leave it.
Speaker 1:Um, so the kid brings a car. We smash the car. We make like good money on it, like the kids pay a dollar to do it, all of that. At the end of the night we're cleaning up the you know the glass and everything. And uh, god pulls up to the church and he's like yo, uh, I'm looking for Peter. I'm like I'm Peter, right, dude comes in and he's like man, I need to talk to someone. He goes. Um, my son was here tonight and he said that you guys had a car smash and he provided a car and I go, yeah, and he goes.
Speaker 1:I don't know where he got that car from and so I'm like well, let me show you the car, like I will show you the car. So we walk over to the location where the car is and I'm like it may be careful, whatever, and he goes that's my no, no, no, no way, dude.
Speaker 3:When you started that, I was like there's no way, it goes here.
Speaker 1:I learned that when you get one of those car smashes, you gotta look at the title, you gotta look where it came. I didn't even think I was so happy we got the car. It'd be in the entrance before the kids got there. We're like, we're like geeking this dude's car out, we're smashing the glass. I'm recording videos. I still, you know i'm'7". So I got on the hood of that car. I'm like, and he goes, that's my car. Like, I'm like, like your everyday driver. He's like that is my car. And so that was a long conversation with my lead and the police, as I said, the po-po, the police and uh, because technically that is vandalism, friends, it's great that auto and vandalism on church property, you can't survive. Um, so what did the kids?
Speaker 3:say were you like? Why did you bring your dad's car you?
Speaker 1:want to go there. Yeah, mad at his dad, no. So he was like you can have this car, he goes. I didn't know, like when you said smash, y'all were gonna smack. I said what do you think that means? Car smash brother? Like what did you said smash, y'all were going to smash. I said what do you think that means? Car smash brother? Like what did you think was going to happen? He's like, well, you know. So you know, we had seven kids get saved that night.
Speaker 3:Come on, is that what you told the dad to you?
Speaker 1:Like hey, listen, I know you're mad, but we had seven kids get saved, that's what I told the board. We had seven kids get saved, that's all that matters at any cost. It doesn't matter if we're going to get sued for vandalism or I'm going to go to jail. And now we need 993 more before we get to 5,000. Oh man, Crazy moments. So wait, what's the ResiSmash? Check it out. Check out all the details.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, a few questions. Hey, buddy, where did you get this car? It's probably top of my list now.
Speaker 2:Is it stolen?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going to try to find the video and send it to you guys.
Speaker 1:Like I look so happy smashing the windows of this car and it's someone's everyday drive. It'd be so good to put that in the show notes. Oh my gosh, we had to take the video down from YouTube because the guy was so bad like yeah, what happened with the dad?
Speaker 3:what happened?
Speaker 1:well, um, needless to say, that's one of the fastest ways to get someone to leave your church. You know, what made it so much work is like I was proud to show him what happened. I was like, oh, the car is this way. You know, what made it so much worse is like I was proud to show him what happened. I was like, oh, the car is this way, you know, like you should have saw his face. Oh man, really I had another person with me, thank god. Who knows what could have happened I have.
Speaker 2:I don't even know why I'm surprised at this story. I I expected nothing less than the best from peter reeves, like that's, that's this, that's, this is come on.
Speaker 1:Like such a big fail. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:And you kept your job, though you, you, you stayed youth pastor, heck yeah somehow I mean I'm like, I'm going to continue to.
Speaker 1:I'm going to continue to be a part of this community when they hey, peter, when they run background checks.
Speaker 2:Does this show up on your record?
Speaker 1:he didn't press charges or anything like that okay, okay and our team took care of him. I don't know what they did. I was like I I think I need to remove myself. Situation. Oh man, when you're desperate, though, to pull off an event, you're like what are we gonna do it? When the kid was like over in the car, I thought this 11th grader was trustworthy.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean Famous last words. I thought an 11th grader was trustworthy.
Speaker 3:In that moment of getting the car, it's like we can actually do this. I would feel the exact same way.
Speaker 1:The only thing that would make this story better. This isn't true, but I'm like now. Today he's a McKinnon. Oh man, he sells cars for a living.
Speaker 3:Before I'm done we played a part in that.
Speaker 2:Oh they crash cars and now we build some oh my gosh I love it, I love it, I love it yeah, never fails never fails. Every youth pastor has a story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, every youth pastor that's the first, though has a story. That's a first, though that's a first. As soon as you said, car smash. I was like, oh, I like where this is going.
Speaker 2:And then when you said a student helped me out, I just thought, oh, this is okay, this is going to be good. Okay, this is why Peter Reeves is on the podcast today. Let's go no-transcript. Sharpen yourself, train your leaders, caleb, you use it to train all your volunteer leaders in youth ministry. And so five vitals biblical truth, spiritual transformation, healthy community, missional living, leadership, development right, you find all of them in Acts two and then throughout the rest of the book.
Speaker 2:So, peter, we wanted to take a deep dive with you on the vital of spiritual transformation, just kind of recognizing how God has used you, not only in the days when you were a youth pastor, but even now as a staff evangelist, out of faith and the traveling that you do and speaking to a lot of young people still thousands of young people, tens of thousands of young people every year. Let's just take a deep dive on that topic of vital spiritual transformation. How do you use? You know things like car. You know smashing cars in order to get seven kids saved. You know all the good stuff.
Speaker 2:But so, anyways, peter, when I say the five vitals and then we dive into spiritual transformation, think back to like not only your youth pastor days, but also how God's using you in ministry now, you and your wife. What are some of the big points that you would kind of draw our attention to related to spiritual transformation? You got full-time vocational youth pastors listening. You got part-time bi-vocational volunteer youth leaders. Small churches, large churches you kind of got the whole gamut of the youth ministry world paying attention to our conversation. What are some ways you would coach us as leaders when it comes to how we create incredible moments of spiritual transformation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I could, I just want to start with my experience and a story. I, when I think of spiritual transformation, I think about a particular young lady in my youth ministry, and she was a youth pastor's dream, in that she was serving not just on Wednesday night, which is when we had service, but she was involved in church. She was our number one giver. She brought her friends weekly. She was a role model to all the younger students. I mean a youth pastor's dream in that regards. We all dream of having that one student. This young lady was that for me and my wife, and she was tremendous, and if you would have asked me her graduating year, if you would have asked me what do I think about her leadership in her life? I'm like this girl's going to change the world. She might be the next Billy Graham, the next Christine Kane, the next something. You know what I mean, and so what happened with her, though, is she went to college. So this is just.
Speaker 1:I've been in Orlando for three years, so three years ago, she went to college, and I got a call from her one day, and she said hey, pastor Peter, I'm going to let you know that I unfollowed you on Instagram and like I unfriended you so that you can't follow me. No, she said I've decided to walk away from Jesus and I'm embarrassed and I don't want you to see my life. And I said well, let's talk about this. What happened? And she said well, she goes. I've been at school. I've been presented with a bunch of different options. It's been really difficult for me to live in Jesus when I'm at university. Now I don't have like community around me. She said, like yeah, like I just I've given up on God and I feel like he's given up on me. And I was shocked Okay, because everyone thinks they're a good youth pastor. You actually don't know until you're done. You know three, four or five years later.
Speaker 1:That won't tell you if you're a good youth pastor not the kids that are in the room in the moment, but the ones that are still in the room when you're gone and when you know they're out of youth ministry. Anyway, I begin to like recap, like man, what happened. I thought I taught her how to walk, you know, walk out her faith and to live in Christ. Jesus said abide in me as I abide in you, or abide in me as I'm with you, and you'll bear much fruit. Right, like it's great, we know this. So I you know again.
Speaker 1:This young lady life transformed, by the way, before she became that model student. She came into our youth ministry, lukewarm, got involved in small groups, got connected to like our giving method, got connected to our development, student development and leadership development, became a student leader. I mean, just saw her life completely transformed, brought her mom and dad to church. I mean, literally, you talk about spiritual transformation. This young lady was it, and now she's telling me like I'm no longer a follower of Jesus. So when I began to do the deep dive into the past, I realized that there was a gap in spiritual transformation in our youth ministry and I can't fix it now because I'm already done. They have a new youth pastor, a way better youth pastor. But if I could say it to someone who's in my shoes, I want to say it like this there is a way to lead people in a spiritual transformation and it's exactly what Jesus said. No shocker there. Matthew 16, 24. Here's what it says. It says then Jesus said to his disciples whoever wants to be my disciple, are you ready? Here's this part of spiritual transformation. Here's where it comes into play. If anybody wants to be my disciple, they must deny themselves, take up their cross and follow me. So here's the gap with that one student. Here's what I did. I taught her that she could follow, she could take up her cross and that she could follow Jesus.
Speaker 1:I just forgot to teach her that first it starts with denying yourself. I didn't teach her about the deny. I mean, it's not cool to teach kids about the deny. You don't want to teach them like hey, you know, like Jesus said, unless a wheat falls to the ground and dies, it'll bear much fruit. That's not encouraging. No one's like yeah, I'm getting ready to die. You know, there was only one person in the Bible that was hype about dying and even they doubted at the end. It was Thomas. Thomas was like let's go die with Jesus. But he's like, listen, unless I touched the holes in his hand right, like that. Just that's not a cool thing to talk to people about.
Speaker 1:But spiritual transformation is exactly that. First you've got to teach students to deny themselves, and in denying themselves, then they can take up their cross, which is when they can understand who Jesus is, how to know God and make him known, and then they can follow him and become like him. That, that, to me, is spiritual transformation. And so, um, I created environments where people could learn about God. I created environments where we taught kids how to talk about God, but I never taught them. Probably the hardest battle and we know this as ministers is going to be you have to deny yourself. You got to do it. It's difficult, it's not easy, but that's spiritual transformation. I know someone is spiritually transformed when what they want is not always their guiding factor, when there's a clear separations between their desires and the voice of God. Right, and they don't know. This is what I want, but this is what God said. You know. So that's what I would say.
Speaker 3:I'm known yeah, dude, that's good and it's oh. As a, as a current youth pastor, it not only is it challenging, but also, I think the other side is like kids and students don't always respond well to that kind of message. And that is hard as a youth pastor, cause I, I, I want students in the room and I want students to be taking those steps, but I'm also like I wrestle with the tension of oh my gosh, am I going to really say something that's going to either push them to a place where they're like I'm done, but at the same time, is that also like what I should be doing? Because that's kind of what Jesus was doing, of like he was not here to build a big crowd, but he is there to build people who are truly following.
Speaker 2:It flies in the face of so much. I mean it flies in the face of current culture, because current culture is all about. You know, go get your bag, live your best life. You know all about like affirming yourself, right. But it also flies in the face of the model youth ministry that most of us have been taught, which is I want to do everything I can to attract you to come and to get you to keep coming back and keep you here, right, and you know so, whatever I have to do, however many cars I have to steal to smash, then that's what you sorry, peter, that was for you. You know, that's what you do, because I think what the model taught us and I did this as a youth pastor for years the model taught me, if I can get you to come back week in, week out, eventually spiritual transformation will take place. But, peter, you're, you're looking at it and saying not necessarily right.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily and like, and I don't think spiritual transformation can happen without a challenge. So I'm glad we're talking about the attractional model. But I heard Rick Warren say one time he said if you don't ask people to commit or to challenge them, they'll never change. Like, commitment and challenge leads to change. And even when I look at my own life, like I got you know, I grew up in the church but I really gave my life to the Lord when I was like 14, right, and I sat down with my youth pastor and I was like, okay, I want to follow Jesus. And he taught me two things. It's still a prayer I pray today.
Speaker 1:He said, pete, number one God is your source. You got to remember that God is. Everything good in your life flows from God. Everything else is a resource, but you have a source. And then he said and then your second job is to every day surrender. So exactly what I'm saying right now, like you got to surrender, you got to deny yourself. He said, pete, those are the two things that will keep you grounded in seeking God.
Speaker 1:And then he taught us our student leadership process at that time was this whole thing called more like Jesus, like every day I'm just trying to become more like Jesus, I would argue like those things were so pivotal for me, for my spiritual transformation, and, in that more like Jesus time, all we did was go through spiritual disciplines.
Speaker 1:Right, he was big on the fact and I'm still big on the fact that Jesus calls us disciples. Well, the core of a disciple is discipline right, and being disciplined in what you're doing, and so those are the things, though, that lead to spiritual transformation is being able to have this routine or this rhythm, and being able to have these disciplines in your life that shape you. That's how I got spiritually transformed man, and I've seen it in the students that I know that are still following Jesus, even without me. You know saying it, and I feel like this is the grace of the Holy Spirit when I talk to them about how they're still holding on. It's this ability to deny themselves that keeps them going. Yeah, that didn't feel good, but I know God loves me. Like, yeah, that happened to me, but I know God's still on my side. They're able to deny what they feel to continue to pursue.
Speaker 3:Jesus. Okay, so I'm curious, because you interact with lots of different youth pastors, lots of different youth students what would you say is the biggest struggle this current generation is facing as far as what they need to deny themselves of or die to? That's where I keep going to.
Speaker 1:I have my own thoughts, but I would love to go.
Speaker 3:Because I think it's one of those things of like, we have to know the enemy and I would like, before we actually start to attack it and be pointed, towards her.
Speaker 1:That's my game plan, and so, yeah, here's what we're up against. Yeah, here's what I think we're up against, and my humble opinion is we need to teach students how to die to their dreams. You know, because that's why I said are you sure you want to go here? Because the message that is so easy to preach to this generation is God's going to give you a dream. There's an MLK on the inside of you.
Speaker 1:Come on, you got a dream and it's like here's the deal is if, if you don't learn how to be submitted in the presence of God, you will, instead of receiving what God has said, we'll bring things and and convince yourself that he said them, and then be mad when he doesn't bless them. You and convince yourself that he said them, and then be mad when he doesn't bless them. You know what I mean. Before you can be a dreamer, you need to be able to be a follower. You know what I mean and I just feel like this generation.
Speaker 1:We told them that anything is possible, which, in the kingdom of God, it is. I mean, god can do absolutely anything, but we haven't taught them how to be surrendered and submitted, and so we've called them to create and called them to become and called them to evolve and called them to innovate, when we haven't taught them how to submit and to surrender. Let me just say this, even just following the model of Jesus himself 30 years of obscurity for three years of public ministry, there was a time of deep development, of going, and Jesus had the ability to communicate. We know when he was 12, remember when his mom and his dad lost him, like they lost, like Mary lost God you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like and Jesus was in the temple debating with these scribes and Pharisees, and it's like he had the ability to communicate, but still there was this title going no, no, no, no, you're going to be submitted. And obviously he was submitted to his heavenly father, but even then Jesus was submitted to his earthly father, joseph, which is a different message for a different day. But I just think that we got to teach students like hey, you don't have to start dreaming world-changing things at 15. Team like is it bad? No, but first learn how to follow jesus yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:So how to deny so, devil's advocate is like dreams are obviously a great thing, so it's like you're telling them not to have any dreams, peter. Like come on no yeah but.
Speaker 3:But it's it's. It's not just no dreams, it's, it's submitted under god's plan for your life. First correct and recognizing, maybe I would say as a youth pastor. Here's what I see is like maybe you might be clutching onto things that you didn't ask God about what he thinks about at first Right, and so they're so attached to something that when it doesn't become that, it's like incredibly disappointing or frustrating, when it's like you've latched onto something before asking God what he has for you.
Speaker 2:I think the root, at the root level, a lot of what you're talking about, peter, is like the dreams. I get hung up on my dreams because it's about what I'm going to become or what I'm going to do, and what I hear you saying is spiritual transformation at the root level is who I become as a person, not who I become positionally, who I become in my job, my career, my vacation. But it's like no, this is who I am as a person and you're referencing the life of Jesus there. I just preached this at an event I was at recently. You know, in Matthew 3, jesus gets baptized, and that voice of the Heavenly Father you know, this is my son, in whom I am well pleased.
Speaker 2:Jesus has not done one miracle at this point. He's not preached one sermon, he's not recruited one disciple. Yet God is already saying to him I'm already well pleased with you, right, and so it's a statement of Jesus identity at this moment and it's I'm pleased with who you are as a person, not what you're going to do or what you've done. You know, like in the context of the event I was, I was sharing this out.
Speaker 2:I said to them you know, healthy ministry flows out of affirmation we've already received from our heavenly father. Not for the affirmation we received by doing ministry or by doing it well, but we we've we've unintentionally taught that to students when we, when we preach, go get your dream, go get you know, go live your best life, go after it. We've, we've preached to them you're going to do something great, and so that becomes their focus, as opposed to the focus of I got to go deep in my roots, you know, and I got to let the, I got to let spiritual transformation take deep place in my life and who I am as a person.
Speaker 3:Okay, is it all identity then? Is that all the root issue, or is it?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you can use that word. There's probably other ways you can frame it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just case study. You know like I'm thinking about what we're going to talk about today, spiritual transformation. I couldn't help but like reflect on. Like Zacchaeus, right, we know this story in the Bible. Zacchaeus is a tax collector. He's a guy. We teach this in.
Speaker 2:Sunday you guys both love that story of Zacchaeus right there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I'm a giant compared to that, I'm Kevin Durant compared to Zacchaeus. I think about that story and his spiritual. The spiritual transformation in his life is kind of swift, like Jesus sees him and goes, hey, I'm coming to your house today and when he is his first conversation with Jesus he's like listen, I'm going to give back everything I took and I'm going to give back even more. You know what I mean. And so his natural desire, right, this guy? We know the narrative of tax collectors is, these dudes are greedy, they want more. So the first thing that really happens in his connection with Christ is he goes I'm going against my own desire, I'm dying to what was previously the number one priority in my life. And we don't know the rest of Zacchaeus' story, but we see that transformation, even with Paul, right Road to Damascus spiritual transformation.
Speaker 1:He hears from God, which I would argue that's a big part of spiritual transformation and was my number one focus as a youth pastor. Pastor is like how can I get students to hear the voice of God? And you know how can I get them to lean into that anyway? But the first thing he does is like he goes and prays until someone comes and lays hands on his eyes and he could see, and then he just starts going to work, doing the exact opposite of what his desires naturally drove him to, and so I just think that that's a big way to identify spiritual transformation is to look at someone and go, wait a minute, what you previously were after you're no longer chasing. I think that's what Jesus was talking about. He goes. You have to be able to deny yourself, like the things that were so high on your priority list. It's not. You just kick them to the side. You know in some regards, but you're going, going. That's not the number one focus on my life anymore. It's not, and spiritual transformation is ongoing.
Speaker 1:Right, let's talk about that yeah um, one of my favorite stories in the bible right now is the story about jesus and the disciples walking up outside of the temple. I think it's in matthew 24, and it says that the disciples looked at the temple architecture and they were impressed. And the, the Lord, just spoke to me like, like these guys have been with Jesus, right, they saw him do unbelievable things, right, like crazy things walk on water, raise the dead, multiply meals, all these things and they walk out and they're like, wow, that's impressive. They found something else to be more impressed with the Jesus in a moment. They were in the presence of God and found something else to be impressed with.
Speaker 1:And I just think to myself, their spiritual transformation was still happening. They still didn't know Jesus is like you're impressed by the sheer size of this. It's going to all turn into a pile of rubble. They're like wait a minute, what are you talking about? They still didn't understand or perceive. So it's happening and is happening, and I think there's a lot of contributing factors to spiritual transformation though. So, but yeah, that's how I was thinking about it. I'm like man, how can we look at people and go? Man, we know that they're spiritually transformed.
Speaker 3:I think it starts with their desire. Yeah, okay, I've. Okay. I don't even know how I'm going to ask this question. So if you need graces, I fumble through this. All right, so that's my setup. I'm leaving you, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:So, like, how do I know when somebody's on the journey and started the journey of spiritual transformation and I just need to show them grace because they're still in the process or I need to recognize my approach is not working and actually they're not even started? Does that make sense what I'm saying? Because I don't want to get to the end of this and I'm five years in. I don't want to get to the end of this and I'm five years in. I don't want to get to the end of my first class and be like, oh my gosh, they went away and they hadn't even started that process of spiritual transformation. Because sometimes it's easy to look at my students and I can always be displeased if, like, they're never meeting the mark of what my bar is as a youth pastor, of like being transformed enough or whatever. But part of that is just, is my question making any?
Speaker 2:sense. No, you're asking like what's the fruit or what are the markers?
Speaker 3:Yeah, how do I know like this is happening and I'm seeing parts of this and maybe that's too broad.
Speaker 2:Not perfection, but growth. Yeah, and what are the markers or the fruit of growth? Like Peter, I'll let you go first and then I'll throw maybe a thought or two in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the markers right. Yeah, I think the markers right. It is tough to say that because I'm thinking like it's more artist than it is factory.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean by that.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely about your faith. Like explain to me what do you believe, right, and try to get them to. This is what I would say. Like I really focused on trying to get students to articulate what they think and what they believe about God and as their leader, then I was able to kind of sit with the angle man, is that what the scriptures say? Is that what Jesus has called them to? I also, if you were trying to move more towards like a factory model, like are they being spiritually transformed, I definitely jacked. Uh, the old um campus missionary thing that we used to say like back in the day, like the pray, live, tell, serve, give right, like so, I'm like.
Speaker 1:I want to investigate their life and go, man, do they really live a life that models the life of Christ? Are they telling people and I know that's kind of like vanilla, but also like I had several students I mean we've seen this in church. I preach in different churches every single week. You can have someone who's been in the church for 30 years and not one person is in the room because of them. They've faithfully been coming, you know. So I would argue that they've been, that they're in the process of spiritual transformation and still have a way to go to be transformed.
Speaker 1:Telling people is a part of spiritual transformation, right, I would say praying, right, obviously, we know that one living serving, right, you have people that have come and received the ministry of the church and they have no desire to serve. I mean Jesus said I didn't come to be served, I came to serve, right, so there's still transformation that needs to take place there. I mean Jesus said I didn't come to be served, I came to serve. So there's still transformation that needs to take place there. I mean, so it's a little bit of factory, but more artistry, paying attention, I would say, to how students are talking about their relation with God, not just showing up.
Speaker 1:Because there was a season in my ministry where I was like they're here, we're good, we got them, you know, like it's all right, but then you start, you know, I don't know, nobody told me this as a youth pastor that, like they would, they wouldn't just come back and all serve. I'm like you guys are all going to stay and serve our ministry Right, and be a part of the team. And then I realized we didn't want them to do that. We actually want you to grow and be a part of our church and all things.
Speaker 2:But, man, like I got to do that with a little bit of both artistry and factory. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. I mean I think markers like like a fruit of the spirit. Are you seeing the fruits of the spirit growing?
Speaker 1:You know what Aaron said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I loved everything you said. I just that's just where my head went. It's like like, okay, am I, am I seeing, you know, like Paul gave us markers and okay, am I seeing those happen, you know? I mean, the other marker Paul gave us is Romans 12, 2, where you'll be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So I think that really, what we're talking about here is talking about sanctification Theologically. That's what this conversation is about Spiritual transformation, sanctification, the lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, right, Okay. So I think Paul says what he's saying in Romans 12 too, is that the primary focus or object of sanctification related to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life and my life is the transformation of my mind, the renewing of my mind. He has to change the way that I think. So, if I can see that students, yeah, if I can see students are starting to think differently, spiritual transformation is taking place. Might be slow, right, but it's taking place. That's so important.
Speaker 2:Go back to your story, peter, of the student who called you to say, hey, I'm walking away from Christ. Um, you know if, if, like, the body only behaves in a way that the mind allows, yeah, so if you, if you're not transformed in your thinking, you can never really be a fully devoted follower of christ, right? You, you can have, you could have had a salvation experience, right? But if your, if your mind is never transformed, then you've not started the process of sanctification or spiritual transformation, right? Like?
Speaker 3:there has to be a transformation of your thinking.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, you're what Paul calls a carnally minded Christian. Right, you have certain behaviors where you try to act like a Christian, but you don't think like a Christian. And if you don't think like a Christian, ultimately you never get to a place of spiritual transformation. Yeah, now how you measure all that? Caleb, that's part of the challenge that we all face in youth ministry. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Peter? Yeah, Let me ask both of you this what is your favorite thought that a student shared with you that you're like oh, they're spiritually transformed. You ever have one of those moments. Okay, while you guys are thinking about it, let me share mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good, Give us some time.
Speaker 1:I had a kid one time. I was like man, I don't know if any of this is clicking for this guy. You know what I mean, because he would just come in and give me that blank stare that students give you. They're just like I mean service, like he's in worship looking at the worship team and I was like I, but he was coming for like months and years. I'm like I don't know if any of this is computing. And once I'm more in a small group. This is why I'm such a big fan of small groups, because you actually get to hear students communicate what's happening in here. And he goes. He literally goes. Um, you know that scripture verse that says a righteous man falls down seven times and gets back up. He goes. I've had a revelation. He goes. It's not our righteousness, that's why we can get back up and I'm like, oh, he's being spiritually transformed.
Speaker 3:Like he's like.
Speaker 1:It's the righteousness of Jesus that when the Bible calls me righteous, it's not my righteousness, it's his, and he goes. I don't know what that is I go, that is. That is the work of Christ in your life and the other kids were like I still don't get it and I'm like this kid gets it.
Speaker 3:Like.
Speaker 1:Jesus doing all the heavy lifting, and so that's why I think it's so important for articulation, creating a place for articulation in youth ministry, because then you don't know if you don't have those moments.
Speaker 2:You know he blew my mind. Yeah, that's good. That's like one of those sometimes rare moments in youth mystery where you're like they're getting it, like I am a good youth pastor.
Speaker 1:I do preach about Jesus. That's way better than finding out. Student leaders are vaping than finding out, student leaders are vaping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. No, it's true. It's true. I'm too old man, I can't think of it. I can't think of it. Okay, I got one.
Speaker 3:Go ahead. I had a middle school boy who was a part of like a Bible club in his school and he was like I got this atheist to show up and we're talking with him, and I can't remember the exact details, but I remember like the one line he said is the guy's like okay, what do I have to do to earn this? He's like, well, it's not really about that, it's not about what you do, it's just about how good God is. And he said that to me and I was like. I was like bro, you're gonna make me cry, like that was awesome. I was like I'm saved again.
Speaker 3:And it was just like like hearing him talk about how he talked to people who don't believe. I was like, oh my gosh, dude, you're nailing it. And it like yeah, it was saying it in his own way too, where I wasn't like I didn't just preach that Cause you've heard kids. I've heard kids like share what I just shared on the stage and it's like, oh, okay, they're just repeating, which is also awesome. Like, but when I heard him saying it and it was like in his own way, and then he's talking about his story and what.
Speaker 1:God has done for him. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:I'm like dude, you're in eighth grade, like. Sometimes I ask eighth graders like what's your story and they're like I don't know. I just showed up because my parents made me come here. So, like seeing you say that. It's like oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, absolutely Well articulate or verbalize, here's what's happening, which is part of the value of small groups. I know most youth industries are doing some form of small groups now because it's a great place to find markers or like fruit, like what's happening in the life of a student.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it sounds like you're getting ready to yeah, I, just I the more I'm processing the idea of like investigating, asking the right questions, diving past just like. I think as a youth pastor, I usually think like what's in my control and what do I need to do? And when a student is responding it's like I'm doing something wrong, but actually usually it's probably just like what's going on in their heart, because it might not just be like a one-to-one. Usually there's something happening. And so I think for the past year I've been really I've been processing this idea because I have a group of students who are so faithful and they're there every week.
Speaker 3:But the spiritual transformation side is something I'm still waiting on, and so I have been evaluating a lot like God, is there something I'm missing or something I'm not doing? And I think that's the natural way my brain works is like there's something wrong with me and not just like maybe God is actually working and I'm not even fully aware of what he's doing. And so I think challenge for me is like I'm like even fully aware of what he's doing. And so I think challenge for me is like I'm like I want to go talk to some of these students, that I'm like what's going on, and you know, obviously not in an interrogation way but, like you know, like just getting to the heart.
Speaker 3:Hey man, what's?
Speaker 1:going on. But you know what, though? I feel like it brings God great joy for us to set out our markers, but then even set markers between the markers that allow us to know the work has been done, because I've had students where I'm like man, they're not getting it, and then they invite a friend to come to them, to come to church with them, and I'm like oh, something has started, so that's really important.
Speaker 1:Or just even a kid being like hey, man, like I know I normally I mean this was it for me too Kids would be like normally have their phone, but they're like I brought my paper Bible that you guys gave me when I first came and I've been highlighting it and I'm like something's, something's happening.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, and celebrating those moments is huge, I think I tend.
Speaker 3:I tend to be more like they're not fully there yet, like I want to see everything we all do, thing that we all do. It's like, yeah, but it's like celebrating as, as pastor Joseph Kellogg, who was my intern director, would say, celebrating the first downs baby, like you gotta celebrate those things. So I think I tend to miss that and maybe even miss that, those markers, and feel discouraged when it's actually like God is doing stuff and I need to trust the process. I need to die to myself in terms of the results I'm hoping to see in the fruit that help, you know, make me feel like I'm doing a good job. When it's really not about that.
Speaker 2:I think everyone in ministry. We want to see progress, right. We want to see spiritual transformation take place, like, like. If you have no desire to see that, then why are you in ministry in the first place? I'm not just on youth ministry, I'm just talking to you in general.
Speaker 2:It's just a weird balance right Between like what I, what I take on as myself and we talk about this a lot, you know, in all of the Vitals for Youth Ministry, all the resources, we talk about lead measures and lag measures and we talk about how, you know, you have to focus on the things you can control. Right, those are the lead measures. A lot of spiritual transformation is a lag. It's a lag measure. You don't always see it. So what can I control? Okay, I can.
Speaker 2:You know, peter, you've mentioned like I can put you in small groups and give you opportunities to verbalize your faith and articulate it. All, right, I can control that, that I create a system of small groups. I can't control whether or not you decide to dive in, you know, and do that. I can. You know, and I think, like with all the vitals, there's this relationship between all of them, right, and so spiritual transformation and biblical truth, I mean there's a tight relationship between those two vitals, because we've identified that a lot of spiritual transformation is the renewing of one's mind, transforming of one's mind. That doesn't happen without biblical truth.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, as a youth pastor, I can control. Am I teaching and preaching in a way where I'm trying to introduce students to the word of God, thus allowing the word of God to at times, confront the way someone thinks right. So, like Peter, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, because you're a gifted communicator. God's used you, you know, all across the nation to travel and to speak. You know to, you know thousands of students, you know people, all that kind of stuff. What are some ways that you've seen God more recently using, like the preaching and teaching of his word, to bring about spiritual transformation in your ministry?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really not shifted but just really made an emphasis on making decisions after a message. I'm not just talking about the decision for Christ, it's like asking questions at the end of my message. It's not like the most hype way to end, but giving students a chance to go to process, like right there at the altar. Um, and I've seen, you know, people say because I heard this, this is what I'm going to do, right, like really encouraging them to, to say, like making an emphasis on action. There should be something that you are doing. I mean, sometimes you'll hear a message and we just need to sit on it and reflect and meditate, but, like I've done with this generation man, like they, like there needs to be a sense of action that leads to and that's proof positive, of spiritual transformation. It's kind of like the woman at the well thing. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like she has this encounter with Jesus and then immediately she goes back to the capitalist you know the 10 cities that she knew people in and she starts sharing. There's action after encounter. So the way I've seen that happen is like students leaving services and going I'm going to. I'm going to begin to anoint my house with oil. Students leaving service are going. I'm going to. I have prayers I just wrote down over my, my mom and dad, my brother and my sister. I have a friend, I am tech. I wrote up a text. I'm going to send as soon as services over. I'm recording my testimony. I'm posting it live. It's happening tomorrow. You know, just decisions after encounter, action after encounter.
Speaker 2:So I love that phrase. Action after encounter, yeah, and encounter.
Speaker 3:Action after encounter. So I love that phrase. Action after encounter, yeah, and that's that's. I mean, that's something that's we're not talking about crazy things to implement it's like right, or even like having to be a certain thing. It's just like, hey, encouraging students to take a real step, I think that's I. I agree that with you. I think it's a huge step for a generation that I think really struggles with commitment and struggles with, uh, a fear of doing the wrong thing. So giving an easy action of, of like here we go, let's take this step, like leading them in those small steps. I don't know if that's me I've only ministered to Gen Z, so I have no idea if that's now or that's always how it's been but I can be, like especially for now, like that is absolutely huge for what they need and how they, how they step into things.
Speaker 2:I mean, we could ask ourselves the question is there really transformation if there's not application? Yeah, right, right. So that's what you're saying, like, if I have an encounter, then the encounter should be followed by some form of action, right, yeah, but as a youth pastor, that's one of the ways I think we can, you know, we can like is there markers or there's a fruit of this happening? Like, is there application, you know, or is it just experience? Right, and I think that's it's easy to fall into the experience trap, and that's again, that's what the attractional ministry model taught all of us in youth ministry create a great experience, right, and if you create a great experience, then eventually spiritual transformation will take place. And now we're looking at data that says, no, that's not necessarily true, right, right. So, yeah, you can still create a great experience. I'm all for that, actually, but at some point, the transformation is going to be seen by the application of it in the lives of my students.
Speaker 1:It has to, yeah, it has to. And you know what I love about that story too especially the woman at the well is that Jesus went. You know, scholars argue about the distance, but he went out of the way to talk to one woman at one well. So what?
Speaker 1:we're talking about as far as investigating students' lives is like he thought miles, however long it was, was worth to talk to one woman, and so we can get discouraged when we go. Man, I'm only able really to have that conversation once a week with a student. It's like, well, that's worth it. Jesus thought it was worth it, you know, to investigate where their life really is and what's really going on.
Speaker 2:And I think that's encouraging for youth pastors or youth leaders that are that are watching or listening and they're like man, I'm in a small setting. I got like five kids, I got like 10 kids in my small church. I'm just volunteering out here trying to make a difference, right, and Jesus models that for us. So, peter, as we're kind of wrapping up here, but I just get real practical with us, Just kind of like put your coaching hat on for a second. Some youth pastors listening that are just like okay, how do I practically flesh this out? We talked about application. How do I apply this conversation to my week in, week out youth ministry Any, any thoughts in regards to that for them Steps they can take.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I mean this is going to be unknowingly simple. Number one give out Bibles. That you have already highlighted. One of my practices as a youth, one of my practices as a youth pastor, would be on I don't know why the camera keeps you doing that One of my, one of my practices as a youth pastor would be to go get a Bible.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about my personal Bible, I'm just talking about a Bible that we would give out to students, a Bible that we would give out to students. I would highlight it on Monday and I would hand it to a student on Wednesday and say, hey, I've highlighted a bunch of different things in here for you Go find them. You know what I mean and I would. I would give that to them. So I would say give out Bibles. Number two the most successful resource we ever I mean, I've ever seen it in our youth ministry context and as I've traveled I've handed it to thousands of youth pastors is we had a prayer guide. If you teach students how to pray and literally even the best prayer resource I have in my life right now is a prayer book by Jeff Lee. I go through it every single month, multiple times a month.
Speaker 1:Teach people how to pray and you will enhance their life with God like never before. Their spiritual life will begin to grow. Spiritual transformation will be inevitable if they pray. So prayer guide, hand out Bibles, encourage and really focus on teaching students how to share their faith. Man, that one is like. We naturally instinctively hope that students are going to catch that they won't. It has to be practical. So, whatever you can do, whether that's a workshop, whether that's a class, like I know Utah students that say they struggle to get kids from their youth service to their Sunday morning Well, sunday morning have a donut whatever and invite them. So we're going to learn how to share our faith like strategically focusing on that.
Speaker 1:And then the last one I would say this is whatever you can do to get students to go public with their belief in God. Like, figure that out, right. So, whether it's a t-shirt, whether it's man, my favorite thing is when kids would get baptized. You know I tend to track that number more than anything else. Not that salvation's not important it obviously is, but baptism was like them going, no, no, this is for real. I want everyone to know and I'm dripping with the water of, like the commitment that I made. Everyone could see it. There's no denying it. But I also loved it because I would really challenge them to be like who's coming to see you get baptized and those are where the majority of our salvations came from is when people would get baptized. They would get a little bit of that bonus.
Speaker 1:And so, anyway, creating those moments for students to be public so I don't care if it's baptism, I don't care if it's baptism, I don't care if it's a t-shirt, I don't care if you tell them to record their testimony and post it and you collaborate on it with them. Whatever it is getting students to share their faith, I would say those four things will lead to dramatic spiritual transformation. It's kind of annoying to hear that, though, because you're like bro, that's so simple. Those are not groundbreaking ideas, I know, but they work, they work. I still have my Bible that my youth pastor highlighted in and gave it to me.
Speaker 3:And I'm like.
Speaker 1:I still have it to this day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as a youth pastor, you need to remind yourself pretty regularly Like that is how it is, like we try to build and create these elaborate things, but it really is those simple practices that really do bear the most fruit, and especially over a long period of faithfulness.
Speaker 2:The gospel does the work. Yeah, and it's easy for us to forget that. Yeah, yeah, it really is.
Speaker 3:But I love to build things, I know.
Speaker 2:but isn't this what Paul said? Paul said I didn't come to you with persuasive speech and eloquent, you know, talks. I came to you knowing nothing but Christ crucified and a demonstration of power.
Speaker 2:There is a simplicity to the gospel that there are times when I and I did this for years as a youth pastor. Regrettably, there are times we think it's about us. It's about my ability, my intellect, my talent as a communicator or as a musician or whatever your thing is. You know, my ability to you know, in today's youth ministry world, my ability to have a social following and make something go viral, all of that stuff, and I'm not down on any of that. I think you should be excellent and, you know, use your gifts Absolutely, but the gospel does what only the gospel can do, right, and? And so, coming back to Christ crucified, um, that's the starting place for any kind of spiritual transformation that has to happen, right, so we forget about that. So, Peter, this has been fascinating, great conversation. I love it. Um and um, just thanks for pouring into us, into those that are watching and watching on YouTube. You're watching, you know, listening on a podcast platform, koda's up. That means like he's like. I think they're getting ready to end.
Speaker 3:He does know every time he does.
Speaker 2:He can tell he spent way too many hours listening to my voice and he's like I think they're getting ready to be done and maybe I'll get to go outside. I think they're getting ready to be done and maybe I'll get to go outside. Hey, peter, before we roll, how can people find you, your website, your ministry? I know you have some incredible resources, a lot of great like small e-book style stuff that you've written that could be a great benefit to youth pastors. Highlight some of that stuff. Where can they find it at?
Speaker 1:Yeah, pull up to peter-reevescom or the-reevescom and man, you'll get to see some of the awesome resources that are on there, as well as some of my wife's resources, our new merch, that's out a bunch of that stuff. And then we're on all the social platforms. Just Peter A. My middle name is Amos, as the prophet.
Speaker 2:Peter A.
Speaker 1:Reeves and so yeah, man we're on all of them.
Speaker 2:We are really good at engaging with people, keeping up with everyone, so, yeah, find us on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hey, also, I know that you and your wife, joanna, have an incredible heart for helping foster kids, and you have an initiative called the Ree help more people in churches open up their home for foster care and then to assist and support foster students, especially the ones that are called into ministry.
Speaker 1:And so we have partnered with great churches all across the country to help provide for families and for students in a variety of different ways. We've done everything from helping with lawyer and court fees for students to be able to enter homes, all the way to helping a foster student, you know, redesign her dorm room, all the way to getting new Bibles and equipment, fridges, beds, dressers, cars, everything in between. We believe and we just believe that the scriptures are not playing when they said let's take care of orphans and widows, and so we really believe in that. Uh, we also, over the past couple of years, set over a hundred kids, uh, foster kids to camps and different mission trips across the country, and so we're really excited about what we're doing. Man and uh, that's our heart. It's amazing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Amazing. I love it. I love it. Um, every time I hear you talk about it, I'm like let's go. It's so good, it's so good, it's so good. So, man, this has been great, great conversation. Peter, again, thanks for joining us and so glad you're rolling with us. If you're watching on YouTube and you haven't subscribed yet to Vitals for Youth Ministry, click on that subscribe button. We want to see you there. Yeah, ring the bell. And then, if you're listening on a podcast platform, give us a review, give us a shout out and we'll hit you back. And we're excited that you're part of the Lead the Generation family. Big announcement, kayla. Big announcement.
Speaker 2:It's not even on our website yet you won't find it anywhere on Lead the Generation stuff, but we're bringing back Lead the Generation Conference in 2026. And Peter Reeves is going to be there on main stage. It's going to be great. April 25th Mark the date now before there's even a drop on the website or on social but it's going to be great. It's going to be in Redding, Pennsylvania, and it's going to be an incredible day to resource and equip your entire youth ministry team. You know youth pastors, youth leaders, student leaders, the whole bit. So it's going to be incredible. I'm excited to see you there, Peter. That's going to be great. So thank you all. Thank you Peter, Thank you Caleb, Thanks for being part of the Lead the Gen family. Thanks for being a listener for Vitals for Youth Mystery Podcast. We'll see you on the next one. Thank you.
