Vitals for Youth Ministry

Leadership Pain, Personal Growth Plans, and a Lifestyle of Development

Eran Holt & Caleb Leake Season 4 Episode 7

Micah Mac joins us to vulnerably share how a painful season of ministry—feeling inadequate, discouraged, and even depressed—became the catalyst for his most significant leadership growth. With remarkable transparency, Micah reveals the exact moment he discovered a framework for personal development that not only changed his ministry trajectory but eventually transformed his entire church staff.

The conversation dives deep into practical steps for creating your own growth plan, focusing on spiritual, physical, and mental development. Micah outlines how setting achievable goals, finding meaningful accountability, and maintaining a compelling vision can help any leader overcome comparison and discouragement. You'll learn why starting small generates the momentum needed to sustain lifelong growth.

Perhaps most powerful is Micah's assertion that "every time a leader grows, people win." This perspective shifts our understanding of personal development from self-improvement to stewardship. The tools, insights, and wisdom gained from consistent growth become a rich resource that serves you—and those you lead—for years to come.

Whether you're struggling through a difficult ministry season or simply looking to sharpen your leadership edge, this conversation offers both the inspiration and practical framework to help you become the leader God has called you to be. 

Connect with Micah Mack on social media @PastorMicahMac or visit http://mac-ministries.com/to learn more about his resources, including his book "Death to Life."

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Speaker 1:

What would it look like if every time someone ran into you, you were just like a water fountain, overflowing with passion, joy, life Like every time someone bumped into you, it was like what got on them was like just excitement and joy. You and I, we can't control a lot of things, but we can control what we put into our life. What took place, let's say, 10 years ago when I first started this. God is still using that season of growth from 10 years ago to impact my ministry today.

Speaker 2:

Hey, welcome to Vitals for Youth Ministry podcast. So excited that you're with us. This is a resource of Lead the Generation. My name is Aaron, director of Lead the Generation. I got Caleb Leak with me in the podcast studio. Let's go.

Speaker 3:

Youth pastor of five years in a month.

Speaker 2:

Wow, you're an old man already, I know. You know youth pastor years are like dog years.

Speaker 3:

You age really fast. I mean, I do think that's actually very true.

Speaker 2:

But you're a new dad right now, so that's why you yeah, you look a little sleepy, but no, I'm dude.

Speaker 3:

he's getting me looking a little sleepy is not because I'm not getting enough sleep. I don't know why, but no, he's giving me an 11 hours a night right now, dude you're blessed. At three hours. I'm sorry, I don't mean that personally, but it's a fun adjustment.

Speaker 2:

Hey, Caleb, we have Micah Mack on the podcast today and so excited for this conversation that we're going to have. Micah, you and I have been friends for years and obviously, Micah, you and Caleb have done ministry together in your youth ministry. But, Micah, for those that are watching or listening, they might not know who you are. Tell us about yourself, your family, your kids. Give us some of that good stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, first of all, it's an honor to be on with you two guys. I have a lot of respect for you both and man thanks for creating a resource to help other people, to impact and equip other people. And so, aaron and Caleb, I just want to say I honor you both and I love you guys and I honor you both and I love you guys and I'm so thankful and it's a huge honor to be on the episode. I believe I was on a year or two ago with you, aaron, and so it's an honor to be back. Come on, and yeah, we live in Minnesota and it's 40-some degrees out right now, and I am married to a wife, stephanie Joy. We met at North Central University. We just celebrated 13 years of marriage a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2:

Let's go, I know.

Speaker 1:

So, Caleb, I'm so pumped for you and your guys' newborn that you have there. Kids are the best. We have two of them, our own and my eight-year-old girl, a six-year-old boy and our kids. They've only known a dad who travels full-time. We've had a travel ministry the last eight years. So right when our daughter was born, a month after she was born, I took off and started traveling full-time.

Speaker 1:

So our kids think every dad is gone and travels and preaches the gospel. They don't know what a nine to five dad is, and so I've had the honor of traveling and preaching the gospel the last eight years around America and some international. And what's unique to our ministry is we've always just left the door open to wherever God wants to bring us and lead our ministry. We don't call or email or text pastors saying, hey, can we come preach? We just pray, we fast, we ask God to order our steps and bring us into places, and the last eight years it's been an incredible ride and it's been an incredible journey to have my kids, my wife, with in that journey. And so, yeah, we come up on our first ever sabbatical this summer where we take a break, and I'm looking forward to that. Minnesota summers are beautiful and so, um, yeah, I love Chipotle, I love good food, I love traveling.

Speaker 1:

I'm a. I'm a. I'm a big, I'm a big moments guy. I love moments. I love capturing moments. I'm I would say I'm a blend of extrovert and introverted. I would say I'm a blend. I also get in these creative modes that randomly throughout the day I'll start crying and because a song kicks in and I'm thinking about something or I'm inspired by something, and so I love creativity. I love travel, I love passion, I love reading books, I love working out, I love really good music and a diverse array of music, and I love all Minnesota sports. I'm a diehard Minnesota sports fan and it's torture because all of our Minnesota sports teams have some of the highest win percentages, with the littlest to no Super Bowls or titles to show for it.

Speaker 1:

So how you know I'm a loyal quality guy is I live in Minnesota and I bleed all my sports teams Wow.

Speaker 3:

Man, that was the biggest resume I think we've ever got, so thank you. That was like pretty comprehensive. I don't know if I have anything else. I think we're.

Speaker 2:

I just was thinking about how I'm a Lakers fan and I in Minnesota oh, you're a.

Speaker 3:

Lakers fan because of Luca bro, get out. No, I've been. I listen. We watched casually. I'm gonna date myself.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna date myself. I became a Lakers fan during the magic era, during the magic johnson era yeah, so I have, I've been with them since kareem and michael cooper and james worthy, even even curtis rambis bro, like I know all those dudes I watched all of that. So I know I'm making myself real old right now, but so just I'm also shut you down. I'm a mavericks fan, and so I'm still in you're yeah, you're a bitter mavericks fan because you lost lucas. So and so I I don't know what to do actually.

Speaker 3:

Anyways, we can talk about that forever. You said you're a moments guy. I love that, and, uh, we like bringing youth pastors on, youth evangelists on, because everyone has a bad moment or an embarrassing moment or a stupid moment, whether that's you or a kid or an intern or whatever someone doing something dumb. It just feels like it's a plague that every youth ministry or youth pastor has. We can't escape it, and so I'd love to hear your story. Everyone has one, so you have the floor bro, share your story.

Speaker 1:

Yes, a great book I recommend every youth leader, pastor, volunteer to read. It's called the Power of Moments. I highly recommend it. I believe it's Chip Scoggins. I could be wrong about that, but Power of Moments, it's a bestseller. It's easy to find, not a Christian book, but really good Speaking of moments and even bad moments. I am just a very passionate guy. Anyone who knows me. I am just a very passionate guy. Anyone who knows me. I just I'm very passionate. Everything I do I want to have fun. I want to make it a fun moment and one of our traditions that we had when I was a small group leader was we would take our small group once a year. We dress up, look really fancy, girls would get in dresses, guys would get in suits and ties or whatever, and we'd go into the twin cities downtown Minneapolis. We go to a spaghetti place. We eat a good Italian meal, that Caesar salad with some garlic toast, with some spaghetti, some old fashioned spaghetti, and just just, it was just such a good meal.

Speaker 1:

We'd all take photos at the spaghetti restaurant there's like 20, 25 of us and then the tradition was is after our spaghetti dinner, we would go to a comedy show and there's an amazing impromptu improv comedy show. That's great for teenagers. It's clean, it's awesome, and we'd done it for like three or four years in a row. Majors it's clean, it's awesome, and we'd done it for like three or four years in a row. And so the difference was this year, um, I was now the main small group leader in charge of running the whole thing, and the last three years I was under someone, uh, who would lead all of it. And so I'm like, well, I'll just do the same thing as the previous leaders and just keep it going. This is a great tradition.

Speaker 1:

So I set up the night, we go get spaghetti and we go to the comedy show and, um, the comedy show is like seats maybe 50 people in the room. We have like 25 of the 50. It's sold out. We have 25 of the 50 seats and when we all sit down, the host of the show comes out and says hey everyone, welcome to our comedy show, welcome to the late night edition of comedy. And right when I heard that, I was like it's 8 PM, it's not late. So what does late night edition mean? Is that I've only been here three times over the last three years. It's been great. We're going to have a great time. I'm sure maybe late night edition is just like a, I don't know. They add some unique things to it. Well, within the first like two minutes there was massive like F-bombs like, and inappropriate jokes, and I'm not even going to share out loud and I have. I have these middle school teenagers staring at me with their beady eyes of, like Micah, what is this?

Speaker 2:

Save us.

Speaker 1:

Micah what? Are you doing? And here's the deal. There's 50 people in the audience. If we all get up in the middle of the show, that's half the room getting up to leave a comedy show. So I look at my leaders and all the students. I'm like it's fine. It's fine, just stay, just stay. And it was some of the worst language, some of the worst jokes and you know those homeschool kids that have never watched a PG.

Speaker 2:

I was just going to ask if they were homeschoolers.

Speaker 1:

They've never watched the PG movies yet because they're still on G. Yeah, they got like the rated R version movie from me. And during intermission, when everyone leaves to go get snacks or whatever we leave during intermission, I look at all the leaders and students I go we're, we're out of here, we're leaving because now would be a good time to go, and so on the drive home, I'm driving the church van on the church drive home I am literally picturing the conversation with my lead pastor of how I bought, brought his middle school kids to a late night edition, horrific graphic commentary and I'm thinking all the parents, I got a call, all the past like, and so, anyway it was. I was sweating bullets, like. On the drive home I have middle schoolers saying Micah, what's this word? I just like, and then, of course, those students didn't let it down because I see them every week at youth group. So anyway, it was a horrible fail, a lot to recover from and, uh, definitely one and a moment to remember. Wow, yeah.

Speaker 2:

That is incredible. Not good, not good.

Speaker 3:

Do you have any particular moments of like parent conversations after that that you remember?

Speaker 1:

I called. Every parent I called every parent. I did not want the kids to share the words, the curse words, with their parents.

Speaker 3:

I wanted to be the one to say hey, I messed up.

Speaker 1:

I thought I would like yeah, and so every parent was gracious and I think it's because I called each one of them individually and um tried to save us from as much damage as possible.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, we could do a whole podcast on how to recover from a, from a terrible moment we're gonna talk leadership in this podcast and you just saw michael model it like, like I, I messed up, but I called every parent to tell them. I wanted them to hear it from me. You know, control the narrative dude that is.

Speaker 3:

That's amazing that that is the worst case scenario being stuck like what do we do? Everyone's gonna see us get up. I I also feel for this comedian who has a bunch of middle schoolers in the room who have no idea what they're like he's, like I'm gonna get up to 50 people and they have no idea what joke, like you know, but he doesn't even know he just probably walks out and all of a sudden like half the room's middle schoolers he's like what is happening right now.

Speaker 3:

I'm in the right place. Yeah, that's crazy. Is this like? A like a high school talent show or something that's going on right now, wow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, so good, so good. Well, we are going to talk leadership today, so this is a bit of a good segue, so we call this podcast Vitals for Youth Ministry Podcast. If you are new to the podcast, or you're new to the Lead the Gen fam, as we like to call it, you should go to our website and check out Vitals for Youth Ministry. It's a free resource of over 70 training videos to sharpen you as a youth pastor, also to use to train your youth leaders, your volunteer leaders, and it's all based around the framework of five vitals that are needed for discipleship, all of which are found in Acts, chapter two. So you got biblical truth, spiritual transformation, healthy community, missional living and leadership development.

Speaker 2:

You see all those in Acts two, and then you see them continue through the rest of the New Testament church in the book of Acts, and so we use this resource in order to sharpen youth pastors and train them to have a good, solid, biblical philosophy of discipleship right, well, I want to see these five vitals be a part of everything we do in youth ministry and what we're imparting into the lives of our students. So, michael, we want to go deep with you in this conversation, specifically on the vital of leadership development. That's why I said like, oh, this kind of sets up leadership really well, because you know we can make the case. You know we never really develop as leaders without having some mistakes along the way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Kind of messing up a little bit here and there, hopefully learning from our mistakes, right, not reliving them again and again. But let me just kick it to you, micah, when you think leadership development, let me start this way how is it or why did you get so passionate about developing yourself as a leader or developing the leaders around you? Where does that come from in your life story and your ministry?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I am extremely, extremely passionate about seeing youth leaders, youth pastors, have this hunger and desire to develop, and I think the reason why I'm so passionate about it is because I am more like you than you probably realize. I had a really big pain moment in my ministry career, in my ministry life, and they say one of the greatest motivators for change any human can experience is pain. And it's interesting because we live in a culture that values trying everything possible to be devoid of pain. We want the easiest route possible, we want the easiest path possible, we want the most efficient path possible and I just think, flat out, pain can become one of the greatest teachers, if you'll let it.

Speaker 1:

And I remember I was tasked to oversee the whole youth ministry and I was freaking out. I had a pretty big youth ministry, I had multiple youth pastors under me and the reason why I was freaked out is I felt like I feel inadequate. I feel like I don't know how to lead in this new season of leadership. I feel like we're in a rocky time because one of my great friends, a youth pastor, just transitioned out and now we have all this questions going on in our youth ministry of who's going to leave and all this. It was a volatile time and I remember personally feeling discouraged, feeling defeated, feeling inadequate, feeling like why did they ask me to lead the youth ministry? I don't know what I have to bring or give. And I remember I don't like I wasn't diagnosed by a therapist like you have depression. But there were some really depressing moments that I was dealing with.

Speaker 1:

It was the end of the year and I came across a resource that God brought across my path that literally single-handedly changed the trajectory for my life, changed the trajectory for my ministry, and this resource prompted me to start what's called a personal growth plan and it literally I always say, the best books that you read are the ones that hit you in the right moment, in the right time.

Speaker 1:

And God brought this book across my path and I literally developed this and created this leadership practice called the Personal Growth Plan, and I watched it transform my life, I watched it change me, I watched it change my leadership and it's why today, I am so passionate about seeing youth pastors, leaders any of any capacity, have this heart to want to grow and want to develop, because every time a leader grows, people win. Every time a leader gets better, everyone else around you wins. There's major impact that follows that and comes from that, and so I would say that's where this passion came from. Was it actually started from a real pain moment? And then now, years later, being on the other side of that pain moment, I've watched how God has used it in a powerful way to shape me, mold me and equip me for what he called me to do.

Speaker 2:

Isn't it amazing how pain motivates us. I don't know what book you're going to recommend or resources you're going to recommend, but when you use that phrase, like God uses pain, I was thinking of a book by Sam Chand called Leadership Pain, and that's a brilliant read. It's hard. It's a hard read too, because the premise of his book is that if you want to grow in your influence as a leader, then God will invite you to enroll in the school of pain.

Speaker 2:

And so it's like well, I don't know who's signing up for that, but I'm curious. Micah, you said you know like some resources that really helped you. Are those resources that are still available? Is that a book that you're thinking of that you can share with everybody? Yep, yep.

Speaker 1:

So the book was called Ready Set Grow by Scott Wilson.

Speaker 3:

Oh, it's such a good book, heck, I went, I was at his church for an internship.

Speaker 2:

I love Scott Wilson let's go Well. And I read that book too. When I was a youth pastor and my whole staff, we studied it together. Yeah, heck, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so, yeah, god used that resource in a massive way. What I loved about the book is it was very practical. It just gave insight into here's what our church staff is doing, here's how you grow yourself, here's how you grow your ministry, and there was just really practical guide on how to do it. And so I felt like what it did is it took a monumental pain moment in my life and then it gave me steps to navigate that pathway to get out of the pain and into the right leadership that God wanted to instill and the right leadership practices that God wanted to put in my life.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the best things young leaders can do, or any leader in general, is developing the right practices now. That will help serve you for the rest of your years in ministry and leadership If you can learn those now. It's so vital. That's why I'm very passionate about young leaders being able to serve under the right lead pastors when they start their ministry, because I just shared with you one pain moment in my leadership journey. But the reality is you guys, if I I've had multiple pain moments, especially as a young youth pastor, and you know what I realized If I didn't serve under the lead pastor that I had like what.

Speaker 1:

What a great lead pastor can do for a young youth pastor or young leader is the lead pastor that I had Like what a great lead pastor can do for a young youth pastor or a young leader is the lead pastor understands that you're gonna trip and fall and you're gonna scrape your knees up at times. What a great lead pastor does is he recognizes that and he knows the moment I went to discipline versus offer grace. He's wise enough to discern what do they need? And, man, there were many moments in my early ministry career where I needed grace more than I needed discipline, and the lead pastor gave me the grace to fall, get back up skin my knee, get back up and get healed, and it helped me. It sets a trajectory for the ministry that I'm doing today. And so, yeah, god used Ready, set, grow, and God also used an amazing lead pastor to help develop me, shape me and give me the empowerment and freedom to run what God was calling me to do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah yeah. That was a big ministry. Lesson I learned when I first stepped into is I was extremely grateful for who I was surrounded with. That, like the what, the where didn't really even matter nearly as much, as who was my support system. So I had an incredible boss. I had incredible friends in my ministry who were also pastors on staff, and I wouldn't be where I'm at if it wasn't for them.

Speaker 1:

Can I piggyback on something real quick, absolutely. To anyone who is serving under a lead pastor right now and you can't relate to Caleb and I referencing great leadership to serve under I'll just say this A lead pastor takes on more than you will ever realize ever. A lead pastor is thinking about 30 different things right now, at any given moment. He's thinking about the affair he just heard about in his church within a board member. He's thinking about the offering that just came in. He's thinking about the family that wasn't seated in the left side section. That's always there. It's been there every week. He's thinking about the hospital visit of a near person that loves that's in the hospital. He's thinking about the wedding that he's got to do in a month. He's thinking about the sermon series that's coming up and the direction he's going to go.

Speaker 1:

My point is this is any person who is in the local church serving in any kind of staff position just know your lead pastor endures things that you will never know about until you're actually a lead pastor and you think you know how to become a lead pastor or you think you could lead the church better. But what you don't realize is you've never actually been in that seat ever, and there's a difference between when you get in that seat and versus where you are as a youth pastor, even a youth leader right now. So I say all that to say give yourself tons of grace and even if it's a bad senior pastor or not a good leader, like Caleb and I are talking about, then find ways to grow and bloom where you're planted, no matter who's leading you. And if it's really bad, and if it's really truly that bad, then you can look at leaving and maybe finding somewhere else to serve.

Speaker 2:

I think, mike, you just said something so profound and so needed. I'm grateful that you said that, because I was, as I was listening to both of you, I was thinking there's definitely leaders out there watching or listening that are like, yeah, that's not. You know my experience, you know like I wish that I could say that, but it's not. But Jesus talked about what you just talked about. So when James and John come to him, or their mother actually comes to him and says can our sons sit at the right and left, can they have this seat? And Jesus' response is can they bear the cup that comes with the seat? And that's what you're saying, michael. You're saying you might want theael, you're saying you're saying there's like you might want the seat, but can you handle the cup?

Speaker 3:

yep and that's what.

Speaker 2:

That's what we don't often see, especially, you know, like the three of us here and we've never, none of us, we've never been lead pastors, we don't even know you know like what that really feels like to not only sit in the seat but also bear the cup.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it comes with it well, and to me to be I as as as the, I think especially when you're younger, it's easier to think like dude. It can't be that hard.

Speaker 2:

I actually remember saying I always thought that I'm not going to lie. I did, I did.

Speaker 3:

And I remember when I was a youth intern, I said to the youth pastor I was like, dude, what do you do with all your time? Which is hilarious now, because now I'm like I have no.

Speaker 3:

like every youth pastor, it's like, hey, my time is so valuable and so it's like that this moment for me, where it like kind of coalesced, where it's like I have no idea because my perspective is so limited and recognizing that is is so good of like I, I'm only seeing what I experience, yeah, and so there's so much more and, honestly, having a father as a lead pastor has kind of helped me seeing that, because I see different sides of it and I know Aaron that's the same for you as well, but yeah that.

Speaker 2:

But sitting in the seat is different, even if you watch it? Because both of us we watched our dads do it for years and you're still watching your dad do it Exactly. But, sitting in the seat is different.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's why. That's why I think, in light of the discussion of what we're even talking about today, it's why I think every, every volunteer youth pastor, if you can, if you can, you yourself grow and bloom in any circumstance. It's going to literally have a direct impact on the church, on the staff, on on even the lead pastor. It's going to be a blessing to the lead pastor. And I think, specifically when Proverbs 1.5, it states a wise person will listen and increase learning, a wise person will listen and increase learning. A person of understanding will acquire wise counsel. And then Proverbs 7 talks about the cost. It says get wisdom, though it cost all you have get understanding.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the things we might not hear enough in the church is this call for every Christ follower to always be adding to their learning. Like think about that for a second. Like it's not. Like, oh, I'm 30 some years old, I oversee a department, I'm a manager at my corporate offices, I'm good. No, there's this lifelong call to be a lifelong learner for every follower of Jesus. And, like it says, a wise person is going to listen and they're going to increase their learning.

Speaker 1:

So how is the 60 year old right now listening to this. How are they increasing in their learning? How are they adding to their? How is the 40 year old who's like? That's a question I often think about. And then, if you're willing to learn, then it also means you have a humble enough posture to realize you don't know it all and you need to learn. And it will also improve your interactions and your relationships, because you realize every person you work with, every person you serve alongside with guess what there is something you can learn from them, there's something they can impart to you that you have no idea about, and it allows you to stay in this posture of treating others how you'd want to be treated. And this posture of learning. It's just a posture of saying, hey, I don't know it all and I still have a lot to learn and I'm eager to learn, and so that's why I think we're even here having this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, michael, what did that look like for you, like when you reflect back and you're thinking, like you know, you referenced the book Ready Set Grow. I remember reading that when I was a youth pastor and then immediately bought copies and gave it to my whole team, and I'm like we got to do this. But I think it would be really helpful and actually be really practical conversation for our listeners and viewers to you know, especially those that are like hearing you say you need to have a personal leadership growth plan and you need to commit to being a lifelong learner. I don't think that's hard for people to aspire to that, but it can be really hard to practically do that. So would you mind unpacking that a little bit Like like, what did?

Speaker 2:

it look like for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So before I get into the practical, I want to create a vision for you. This is the vision that was casted for me. What would it look like if, every time someone ran into you, you were just like a water fountain overflowing with passion, joy, life Like every time someone bumped into you it was like what got on them was like just excitement and joy. And I know that's not realistic for real life all the time. But my point is is, like you and I, we can't control a lot of things, but we can control what we put into our life and we can control what we plan for and what we attempt to grow in. And so the vision that was cast in this book is what if every church staff member, every time they ran into you, it was like people were excited to be around you because they just felt like they were imparted into or built up around or encouraged or strengthened. Like what a vision for your life, Like what a vision for a team.

Speaker 1:

And I was like my life doesn't look like that right now and I'm depressed youth pastor who feels like he's failing at my job, and so I wanna be like that. And so I just copy and pasted a lot of the plan that is laid out in Ready Set Grow into my own personal life and I made it kind of my own. So how I did this practically is I made a list of spiritual goals. I made it kind of my own. So how I did this practically is I made a list of spiritual goals, I made a list of physical goals and I made a list up of mind or mental goals. Our bodies are made up of physical, spiritual, mental. There's all these components to what makes us up as a person, and so because of that, I wanted to write out specific, achievable, stretching goals that if I did these, I knew I would watch the growth play out in my life. And so, for example, like spiritual goals is every day. I was going to read the scriptures every single day Like it was a non-negotiable. I was going to journal what I was reading about, what God was doing in my life. That would force me to slow down. Every day I was going to have a time in my day where I prayed. I slowed down enough to talk to God, to pray, and so I had spiritual goals. Then I had physical goals. Here's the body weight I wanted to be at One of my years I wrote down I want to run a marathon.

Speaker 1:

I've never ran a marathon before, so in order to do that, it meant training, finding a training program. Some of it was lifting goals. Hey, here's the lifting goals I want to hit. Or like now, for me, one of my goals is I'm not training for a marathon and I don't have lifting goals, but I'm trying. Right now I have an active goal of walking a minimum of 10,000 steps a day. It's just a goal I have, so I try to hit 10,000 steps a day.

Speaker 1:

To help me hit that goal, I bought a watch that tracks all of my steps so I can help hit the goal, because every day I can look, it gives me the reading Now I know where I'm at. And then mental or mind goals. This deals with your intellect. This deals with what you're putting your eyes on, what you're reading, what you're taking in. And so the church staff's goal that they had was they would read 30 books in a year and they would listen to 104 podcasts in a year, and so I decided to copy and paste that year one. I was going to read 30 books, which, by the way, the most I had read in a year was about five or four books Any year prior to that 30 was massive.

Speaker 1:

But keep in mind, I'm a depressed, I'm really in a pain moment. Youth pastor, I feel like I need all the help in the world and creating this 30 book goal felt like a stretch that like, oh man, this is going to be great. And so what I did is I? This is the kicker. This is where the secret sauce comes in with all of this. Okay Is, before I ever started the plan to personally grow and go after my goals, I first wrote out what my goals were and then two I took time to share my goals with my lead pastor and with three other really respected leaders. That really kind of scared me, like they put the fear of God in me.

Speaker 1:

And this is what I told them, each of them. I said, just so you know, every three months over this year, I'm going to give you a report of where I'm at with the goals and then, at the end of the year, you're going to get a list of everything. I read every podcast, I listened to all of where I'm at with my goals and, by the way, you guys don't have to ask for these, you're just going to get it in your emails every three months. Okay, so, like I'm not waiting on you to ask me how I'm doing, I'm just going to lead up and show you what I'm doing. Here's why this is important is, if you don't have someone that you deeply respect, that you share this with and let's just say you tell a peer you're more than likely not going to do it because you don't care what your peers going to your peers can be like oh cool, whatever, no worries. But when you tell it to someone you deeply respect and admire, it holds your feet to the fire in those moments that you want to give up and it helps you keep going with the goals that you're on. And so, at the end of this year, my pastor, on his desk, got a report of everything I read, everything I did, and my pastor comes into my office and know what he says. He goes. Micah, you didn't have to give me this report for me to see the transformation that I saw in your life. But he said thank you for sending me this and he goes. Oh, by the way, because I've seen such a deep work of God in your life this last year, because I've seen the transformation, just so you know, I'm going to have you share in front of our whole, entire staff, and, after you share what God's done in your life this last year, I'm going to create an initiative where our whole staff is going to follow your lead and do the same implementation of a personal growth plan in their life. And, oh, by the way, at all of our future staff meetings, staff is going to have to give a report on where they're at on their personal growth plans. So it went from being really depressed in a really painful moment to now our entire church staff is doing and following a model of just what my lead pastor saw take place in my life. And so what took place? What took place like, let's say, 10 years ago when I first started this? God is still using that season of growth from 10 years ago to impact my ministry today, like my travel ministry has been impacted because of the growth seasons of years prior.

Speaker 1:

And I say all that to say this all the learning that a wise person adds to themselves only benefits their ministry and their leadership in the years to come, because it changes who you are as a leader and their leadership in the years to come. Because it changes who you are as a leader, it becomes a tool bag for your tools and ministry. You become a better writer. You become a better reader. You become a better speaker. You become a better leader because your whole tool bag is filled with hundreds of books that you've read over the years. And not only that because you read widely and deeply, you actually become more approachable and more.

Speaker 1:

How do I say this? You become more diverse in who you can talk to, because you've read so deep and so wide that you can talk to a school janitor or you could talk to a wealthy CEO in your church, because you are well-read and you have different spheres of knowledge that it allows you now to hold a conversation and the CEO can listen to you and be like he knows his stuff and the janitor can be like, oh my word, like that was awesome, like I'm built up, you're built up. This is edifying, and so my point is, when a wise person continues to add to their learning, it literally like it sticks with you for the rest of your life, you don't just like it doesn't fall off, you, it sticks with you. And so, um, it's why I'm so passionate about and those are just some of the practical things that that I did that, and I continued to do.

Speaker 2:

that helped me in my readership. I love it. Yeah, I tell communicators all the time like, like, there's a, there's a. There's a young youth pastor that I'm coaching right now in his preaching and one of the first things I always say, before I ever even like, like watch or listen to a video of them you know preaching one of the first things I'll ask, ask them is like, how many sermons are you listening to a week?

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like for free. You have access. We have access to the greatest communicators in our generation. It's all there. How much of that are you listening to? And I can usually tell right away by the way they respond to that.

Speaker 3:

By their facial expressions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like how committed they are to actually growing, in this case, specifically as a communicator based on the amount of content that they're consuming. Yeah, In this case, specifically as a communicator based on the amount of content that they're consuming.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, man, micah, what I love that you break down is like your response to pain, because there's good response and there is bad response, of like, we all have pain. We all have things that are going to happen. I love you. Mapping out here is the proper way to respond to a big pain moment, something that's been really painful or hurtful or whatever.

Speaker 3:

Insert your thing there. Painful or hurtful or whatever, insert your thing there. Um, I, I want to like highlight probably the leader that might be feeling like man, this is a lot, or I don't know if I'm capable of that or feeling like intimidated. What would you say is a good, like first step or starting point, or I know you map some of that out. But for that leader who's feeling discouraged or like intimidated, what would you say to them?

Speaker 1:

I would say start small and make them achievable. Cause here's why, when I started getting to five books read after like the first month or two, I was like you're kidding me. I literally just read five books in one or two months. I maybe read five books total in a whole year, the years prior. And what it does is when you start accomplishing small, achievable things, endorphins are released in your brain and it tells you to keep going. And so I would tell you, rather than being freaked out by the amount or the size of a plan, what if you just started with something small and something achievable, that when you finished it and you completed it, you allowed yourself to celebrate something that was a stretch for you, it was good for you, and what that does is that reinforces great behaviors and great habits in your life to move forward, to keep following that trajectory. And so that's what I would tell you.

Speaker 1:

You know, 30 books might be a lot to you, so what if you started with five for the year? Or? Or do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, make it and bite size versus like. I have to do all these things because all of us have different lives, all of us have different demands and schedules and um yeah, so that's what I'd encourage to someone who might feel a little overwhelmed by hearing this. Like, you know what, if your health goal was, hey, I'm 200 pounds and I want to be at 195 pounds three months from now, that's a pound a month, a pound and a half a month for you to go after. You know what I mean. Like, like, seeing results, even if they're small, are encouraging to anyone who's like I've tried this before or it's like you. We need that positive reinforcement and we need that encouragement to to keep following the plan that we've laid out for ourselves.

Speaker 2:

You got to find momentum. I love that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's really simple. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it might look slightly different for each person. I discovered for me that if I want momentum in my spiritual life or in my intellectual life, that I'll find momentum quickest in the physical If I'll get to the gym, from that momentum will flow all the other stuff that I'll find momentum quickest in the physical. If I'll get to the gym, from that momentum will flow all the other stuff that I'm really. That's just the way it works for me.

Speaker 3:

I don't know that that's necessarily case study for everyone, but yeah, I think I think for me, when I think about this, I what you just said, where it's not cookie cutter for everybody. There's not one blueprint you gotta. You could probably got to map it out for what you need for yourself. I think I tended to let comparison absolutely kill every goal I would set. So I would look at one person who's doing way better than me. It's like I'm not capable of doing that. So then it's just easy to be like, well, why even try? But that?

Speaker 3:

But that comparison was like okay, that's the route I need to get at of like I'm not supposed to be them, I'm not supposed to even do goals like them. I'm supposed to be like God, what do you want me to do? That was the first time. I'm not a naturally disciplined guy, but that was the first time I started seeing any success with goals, when it was what is God telling me to do? And it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing other than what he's saying for me. Naturally I'm doing that just seeing the scaling going and I'm capable of way more than I ever thought I was able to do. Where now I look at things and it's like wow, I never thought I'd be reading this many books or doing this many things, yeah, so I think that was a big key. For me at least is what I would say to some youth pastors.

Speaker 2:

So, micah, back to you. Keep on coaching us. What are some other practical steps that you'd encourage viewers and listeners, you know on the podcast today, to take? They're trying to set some goals for themselves. They're trying to, you know, develop themselves as a leader. They're trying to figure out what a personal growth plan looks like. You know what other stuff?

Speaker 1:

I would just say you know you can lose yourself in the nitty gritty details, but you have to have a vision as to why you'd even want a personal growth plan Like. And if you don't have a vision, you really won't ever follow a plan. And so you have to develop. What's that? What's that reason? What's that white hot, why?

Speaker 1:

Um, for me recently, um, I had a health scare personally in my life and my y ministry is here all the time. What might not be here is my own health, my own personal journey with my health, and so what my why became? It became being healthy so that I can be a great husband to my wife and a father to my kids for many years. Like that's a vision that I will work hard at, because that matters. And so before you even think personal growth plan, you first have to think why am I even doing this and what's the vision behind this? And that will help you fuel setting up this plan and having a personal growth plan. So I would just start by asking yourself why?

Speaker 1:

What is my why? What has God put me on this earth to do? And then, from there now, you follow what Proverbs says, which says, hey, I'm going to add to my learning. I'm going to invite correction into my life. I'm going to share this with other people and watch how God uses it to inspire other people in their life and other people around you. And so, yeah, I would say another practical piece would be first start with vision before you get to the plan and figure out what your why is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's so good, it's so encouraging. You know, micah, you and I have been friends for years now but I've never heard you actually unpack like this part of your story and I was sitting here thinking like and you travel quite a bit and God has used you and opened up doors for you to speak to. You know tens of thousands of people and students across the country on an annual basis and it's easy back to your comparison thing, caleb it's easy to look at someone like you, micah, and not understand like the fruit of what we're all seeing in your ministry in large part probably comes from this exact moment in your life where you're saying, like I was struggling and I had to, I had to figure out, like I have to grow myself and put a plan in place, and because you did that and the Holy Spirit graced you to successfully do that, we're all now, yourself included, experiencing the fruit of like this, this work, this is. You're talking about something. How many years ago was this that you that?

Speaker 2:

you this was 10 years ago. 10 years ago, yeah, yeah. So we never see that when you're, when you're stuck in comparison land, caleb, you never see that Like you, just see. You see the end result highlight reel of, like a Michael Mack life in ministry not realizing 10 years ago.

Speaker 3:

Here's where this process started for this leader, or the painful experiences along the way that you would never envy, that you'd never be like, oh give me that You'd never sign up for.

Speaker 2:

You'd never sign up for.

Speaker 3:

There was actually Scott Wilson, the guy, the pastor who wrote Ready Set Grow talks about. He went to John Maxwell and said man, I want to be you. He went to John Maxwell and said man, I want to be you. And John Maxwell said you have no idea what you're asking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like what an eye-opening moment, because it is like you don't see the pain the weight, the things that are carried.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you want someone else's anointing, but you don't know what the cup is that you're going to have to drink.

Speaker 2:

We could do a whole podcast on comparison and the why, why, like both those. We need to write those down. Micah, have you ever met a great leader and got to know them personally and then discovered that they never went through anything painful in their life? Like, seriously, I've never met that person like, have you ever met that? Like, like like anybody that I've ever admired from a distance and then had the opportunity to get to know them?

Speaker 2:

yeah this is this is how I felt about you when I first got to meet you. Micah, married you from a distance, got to know you, and then I was like, oh they, he went through some stuff yeah, and that's that I feel like that's every great influential leader I've ever had the grace and and the opportunity to meet. It's like, yeah, they pain, grew them up and and grit and hard work and self-discipline and all of that well, it makes sense why paul would say that then in the bible.

Speaker 3:

Then too, like we take joy in our trials, yeah, because it does, or paul himself having a thorn in the flesh yeah, it makes me into the person god's called me to be, and now, as you can look back and reflect, as you're farther away of like, wow, I, god, had planned that all along and that was exactly what I needed. And he turned that painful thing into something that's now I'm using to take down the enemy, I'm using as a testimony.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Micah, take, so we're headed towards the closure, but take us, take us through any last little bits and pieces of, like you know, coaching, practical stuff that you would pass on and say here's some things to think about for leaders that are just getting started. Or for the leader who maybe says a year, a couple of years ago, I was doing great in this area, but now I've lost my momentum and I'm trying to figure out how to get back.

Speaker 1:

I will just say this a killer, something that kills a personal growth plan and growth in someone's life, can be success and pride, and so stay away from not success, but from pride. Success can be an illusion to how someone's actually really doing. It can be a mirage, and so I would say this is why adding to your learning needs to be a lifestyle and not what happens outwardly or even intrinsically to someone. It's why it should be something that marks a follower of Jesus, because to add to your learning means pride can't operate, it just can't. It's the same thing of when you look at a marriage A marriage will be successful as long as there's not pride in it. Truly think about that Like it just will, because strife, arguments, dissension, disagreements it can quickly wipe out a great marriage because pride says well, that's not true or this didn't happen. And so I guess what I've seen is you have to be careful of how you handle success when it comes your way.

Speaker 1:

And then I would say just real, quickly, start with achieving, or start by small and achieving, goals. Share those goals with someone you deeply respect, celebrate along the way, enjoy the process, enjoy the process it went from. I don't know if I'll be able to achieve this to this is so dang fun. Like what I'm learning gets me so fired up. What I'm learning right now, what the stories of these people who are dead but live for Jesus, how it's fueling my faith this is awesome. I think sometimes we forget. We just need to slow down and tell ourselves enjoy it, enjoy the process. This is fun, this is great. Like, like, look at what we get to learn right now.

Speaker 1:

And then I would also say create a note in your phone, a separate note in your phone, where, as you're reading and as you're studying and as you're taking all these things in and sticking to your growth plan along the way, write things down in a separate note in your phone. That really ministered to you, because God will use those. I think every pastor needs a note in their phone. It's like just ammunition in their gun and it's all these things that they've read so that any moment when they stand in front of youth leaders and they need a two minute challenge, they can go through this note and be like oh yeah, god spoke to me. Through this, I'm going to pull this thing. It becomes ammo in your pocket to lead people and help people. And so, as you add to your learning, just write it down somewhere so you can quickly access it to pull from it, from whatever setting you're in.

Speaker 1:

And so, yeah, and then celebrate. I'm graduating with my master's degree here in May. I walk in a couple of weeks and we're going to celebrate One of my best friends from high school. We graduated high school together and we're graduating with our master's together this in two weeks and so we're going to celebrate. We're going to throw a party together, him and I, and enjoy the fruits of your labor, enjoy what God gives you, celebrate it and just remember everything in this world is utterly meaningless. The only thing that matters is Jesus, people and adding to your learning because it always impacts other people. Yeah, come on.

Speaker 2:

Heck yeah bro, so good, I felt like we should have cued some like a pad there, a little altar call. You want to grow your leadership. One, two.

Speaker 1:

And I will just say this like this whole podcast could sound like a completely self-help type stuff and just you know you can go get this stuff at Barnes and Noble. But I'll just say this All of us are completely and utterly nothing and bankrupt, apart from Jesus. The whole reason why I even want to grow is because this is what Jesus has for my life. Jesus didn't call me to stay stuck. He called me to grow in him. He called me to add to my learning and be a wise man, a wise husband, a wise person. This is the life he's called me to. So I don't do this to try to better myself. I do this to become more like Christ and a disciple of him, to live in the world I'm living in and be the best help I can to somebody else.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's good vision, it's good parameters, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's so good. This has been so encouraging and a real like. I love a real targeted look at like leadership development, because that's a big, vital and that applies. You know, like how do we develop student leaders, how do we develop our youth leader? And there's a lot of different ways, but this is really targeted towards you and I, as the youth leader or the small group leader or the youth pastor, whatever your you know your role or your position. Is your volunteer, your vocational, whatnot?

Speaker 2:

This is kind of speaks to us and say, okay, I want to make sure that I'm growing in this way and I love and appreciate you, micah, unpacking your story, god's used you incredible ways. A lot of people know you, they know of you, and it is easy from a distance to look at someone who's being fruitful in their ministry, like you have been for years now, and it's just it must be nice to be them. You know, and not realizing like, yeah, there is grace and favor on your life, micah, and on your ministry, but there's also like seasons of like. I'm going to work hard, I'm going to develop myself.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to keep on learning. I'm going to keep on growing and obviously you're still doing that, cause you're just you're finishing a master's. You know what I mean. You could have said I'm good, I'm busy enough, I'm traveling all over, I don't need to like take on anything more to keep on learning and growing. So very encouraging, very encouraging.

Speaker 1:

Thanks guys.

Speaker 2:

Caleb, we got to go read a book or something, I don't know what to say.

Speaker 3:

I mean, dude, that is, after all of these, I always feel like, come on, I'm going to go, like climb a mountain or whatever. You know, like let's go, yeah. So I got challenged.

Speaker 1:

I will say this Whenever you hear a podcast, you're always hearing someone, someone's best, and so just keep in mind, like I am in the throes of life, just how you guys are and everyone listening to this podcast. So give yourself grace to be who God's calling you to be, because he's cheering you on just as much.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thanks for being vulnerable.

Speaker 2:

I'm glad we're recording on this day, because I made it to the gym this morning. I listened to two sermons while I was working out, so I feel like, oh, like, at least today's a good day for me. If we were recording tomorrow not exactly sure what that's going to be like, but that was good. Hey, micah, for those that have been listening or watching, they'd love to connect with you. Where can they find you? On social or website or all that stuff?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Socials are at Pastor Micah Mack, and then our website is Mack-Ministriescom.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you have a book that you've written and you have another one. You are writing.

Speaker 1:

Right, I have another book I am writing right now. I do have one book I wrote called Death to Life, and then my second book I'm working on is to equip ministers of the gospel. Also, that's one of the things I feel called to do and it'll be a very niche book.

Speaker 2:

My second one, yeah, yeah, go check out Micah's first book. It really unpacks a lot. I think it unpacks a lot of your life story, right.

Speaker 1:

Yes, correct.

Speaker 2:

Incredible resource. So go check that out. Give him a follow and a like on social. Follow and like on social. Shoot them a DM, encourage them. All that good stuff. And if you're a fan of the Vitals for Youth Mystery podcast, you'd love to lead the generation family. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Click on that. Subscribe on YouTube or Apple Spotify. Whatever you're watching on, help us out. Give us a review as well. That'll help us spread the word for what we're doing, micah. Thank you so much for joining us today. Caleb, as always, an honor to co-host this with you.

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