Why the Church's Future Isn't Innovation & How to Reclaim Biblical Depth

We explore how authority from God creates confidence without ego and why rebuilding Bible literacy is the safest path back to health in youth ministry. John Rush shares stories, practical tools, and a call to play the long game: disciple deeply and watch evangelism grow.

• Authority that produces humility and courage
• Candid youth ministry stories and lessons learned
• Celebrating innovation without losing formation
• Assessing Bible literacy with simple AI tools
• Measuring fruit of the Spirit, not just attendance
• Keeping the found as a pastoral priority
• Shifting preaching from clever to substantive
• Gen Z’s hunger for stability and doctrine
• Relational ministry beyond the stage
• Ethical, effective use of AI in prep
• Discipleship as the engine of evangelism
• Student-led movements built over time

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Transcript

Authority That Breeds Humble Confidence

Speaker 3 1:15

The more that I walk in the authority God's given me, the more it gives me this confidence that's actually paired with humility. Because it's not a confidence that's drummed up in my own works or my own ability or my own brilliance. Um, and so I think that's where people normally teeter between insecure or prideful. And I think it's because you're trying to find it within yourself and you've got to just anchor into the authority from God. I I better lead this family because I'm the only one God sent. I better preach this message. I better post this post because I'm the one God sent for this. I got that, I've got the authority.

Speaker 1 1:52

Hey everyone, welcome to Vitals for Youth Ministry, a podcast of Lead Generation. So excited you're with us. My name is Aaron, director of Lead Generation. I got Caleb Leek, my faithful co-host.

Speaker 2 2:03

Heck yeah, excited to be here. Uh at the time of recording, it's getting about to be that time where fall is gonna hit. Pittsburgh fall is beautiful. It's my big and I'm a pumpkin spice latte kind of guy.

Speaker 1 2:13

Are you really? I am. I don't I didn't know this about you. Let's go. Isn't that kind of a girly drink? No. No. If you think it is. Hey, Caleb, we got uh the one and only John Rush on the podcast today, our guest. And uh John, we're super excited to have you here. Um, some of the Lead the Gen family probably already knows you. You were part of uh one of our conferences years ago. Um, and uh, but we're bringing you back today. Uh for those that might not know you, um, go ahead and introduce yourself, tell everyone a little bit about who you are, uh, your family, ministry experience, all that good stuff.

Youth Ministry Stories: Camp, Newborn, and Skunk Chaos

Speaker 3 2:46

Yeah, I am uh I'm John. As they say, I can attest to that as an accurate and faithful statement on my identity. Um I uh we my wife and I and our three kids recently moved to Franklin, uh Tennessee, which is just south of Nashville. And uh prior to that, we did 15 years of local church uh ministry at two great churches, one in Rockford, Illinois, uh Assemblies of God Church used to be called Rockford First Assembly, and then now it's called City First Church, Pastor Jeremy and Jinderwort. And then we were at um Elevation Church uh with Pastor Stephen and Holly Furtick for five years, and then now we um are doing a lot of entrepreneurial evangelistic um craziness. Um and uh but we're based out here in Franklin and we are part of a really cool, really fun, brand new church called Holy Saints Church with uh Pastor Brian and Tiffany Voss. And I don't think any of you should bring in a speaker or listen to a content creator who's not a part of a local church and is vocal about their involvement at local church. I think it's weird. I don't think we should be instructed by people who are not under instruction. I don't think we should be giving authority to people who are not under authority.

Speaker 2 4:08

Heck yeah. That's good. What a stardust. Preaching already. Let's go. Heck yeah, bro. We're gonna have the hook. We've got to hit the hook. Yeah. We're diving right in. Well, bro, excited to have you on here. And uh, the years you've had in youth ministry always leads to having a story. Every youth pastor, every youth leader, everyone who's around youth ministry, it tends to be a plague that follows them. I say a plague of stupid that you just can't escape, whether it's you or youth leader or youth. You sometimes it is. Maybe lots of great sermon illustrations is what you have. Lots of great stories. Uh so dude, we'd love to love to hear your story of what you got because everyone's got one.

Speaker 3 4:45

Yeah, I mean, I told a bunch of these recently on um the YG Chronicles uh YouTube. If you guys have never checked out those guys over at YG Chronicles, it's hilarious. Yeah, it's hilarious. They do social media at a high level, they're local church guys, really great, solid people. Um, and so yeah, recently I was like trying to regale all these things I had tried to forget. Um, I mean, gosh, I mean, one that comes to mind is when we had our first kid, um, she was born on summer camp. And so we obviously kind of knew that. And so I wasn't a part of a lot of camp. Um, I was fortunate enough to do a lot of my formative years of youth ministry with my actual youth pastor, shout out Garrett Balsitas, around. Um, and so he was my boss for a little bit, then we were peers, which we can talk about that and the dysfunction of that. Um, and then he was on a different role. Um, and um, but he was around, and so I was like, hey man, I'm having my first kid. I can you run camp? And uh so he's like, okay, dokie. And uh, but I was slated to speak one night at camp, and so drove up, newborn, first kid, just deadbeat, tired. And then um we get to uh you know, after service. I preached the heck out of that message, actually, by the way. Uh I preached if no one's ever preached a message uh correlating Iron Man uh to what Jesus did for us, then you're just you're just not trying hard enough, okay? Don't don't don't say the the movie analogies for church of the movies. You say use them for you know your sermons. Um I preach with an infinity gauntlet, that's why I remember that. Uh oh, that's oh yeah, oh yeah. Um and preach the message and was gonna stay that night at camp. Um so I was hanging out with students late into the night, just trying to make up for that relational equity with my leaders and everything. And and then I get a text from my wife that our dog had got sprayed by a skunk in the backyard and then ran inside and rolled around on everything and like skunk spray. Skunk spray from a scientific point of view is a uh is an oil, it's like an oily substance, and so that it you know was easy to to rub off. And so I got back in the car at like 1 a.m. after just you know raging with students and just drove back home and newborn and skunk life.

Preaching from Scabs, Not Wounds

Speaker 1 7:24

So wow, what a mixture the the thrill of a newborn with the smell of skunk, you know.

Speaker 3 7:35

And in some of that, you know, I think it's a good story because sometimes, you know, uh people find me online because I I've I've now in this different seat put a lot of energy into my social media different than I would if I was primarily focused on pastoring a local, you know, congregation or youth group. And so people sometimes lump me in with like other like content creators and be like, oh, this guy's just talking and be like, listen, listen, Banana Head 57. You know, like I know you were a kids volunteer for three weeks after Easter once. Um you know, but I I'm about this life, okay? I'm about this life. I've done this, okay?

Speaker 1 8:14

I've done this. And I have the residue of Skunk Smell to prove it. Yeah, true. I mean, come on. That's dude, that's hard to get out, man. My um I'm I'm hoping my dog is not listening in on this right now. I'm thinking that's a good idea. I should try that next.

Speaker 2 8:29

Dude, what I'm excited about is just no one is safe when John is on. I feel like John is already coming out. I'm like, let's go. We're already, we're already head first in, baby. Let's go. Let's go.

Pivot to Biblical Truth Vital

Speaker 3 8:39

Well, I mean, I think it's good. No one's no one's safe, including myself. Today's Monday. Yesterday I was preaching at our home church on Sunday to our adult congregation. And I'm just like, I'm calling them out hard while calling myself out hard. And I just think it's like, it's it's a hack to preaching. It's like, you know, obviously you don't want to be preaching, you know, what do they say? Don't preach from your scars, not your wounds, you know. Um, but I think sometimes, I think it's sometimes it's okay to preach from a scab a little bit, as long as the way you do it, because because man, I just I think it's a really easy way to tr to really hit people hard on their sin is when you're relating with them to a degree. Obviously, there's wrong ways to do that. We've seen that. Right. Um, and I would even say there's maybe certain subjects that are, you know, like one of the things I was talking about was just how as I get older and as I have young kids, my heart for the lost, but I don't wake up with it, you know. I'm evangelism is like number four on my fivefold gifts, which surprises a lot of people. Um, but I just use that to point out like if you ever think John Rush is evangelist, uh, give give credit to the Holy Spirit because it's not in me. And so I'm I'm up there in front of our church, punch them in the face about like, hey, we can't just be a church that you know doesn't see the world around us. But I'm saying it by by saying, but like that's that's what I need to pray for. So no one's safe, including myself. Yeah. Yeah. Bless God. Yeah.

Celebrating Progress and Overcorrections

Speaker 1 10:01

Well, and I mean that's what the word says, right? Like the it's it's a two-edged sword. Right. It divides asunder, right? You know, so that when that sword comes, man, it should, right? It should hit all of us, which which kind of uniquely sets us up to dive a little deeper on the topic of biblical truth, John. That's what we wanted to kind of to roll with you for the next couple minutes. Um, so we call this podcast, Vitals for Youth Ministry. It's based out of a resource from Lead the Generation, absolutely free, uh resource library, 70 plus videos, um, based around the five vitals found in Acts chapter two Biblical truth, spiritual transformation, healthy community, missional living, leadership development. And we love having guests like you, John, on the podcast to kind of give us a deep dive on one of those vitals, right? There's a lot of great stuff on the website. If you've never checked it out, those of you that are listening, watching it, go to leadersgeneration.com, check it all out. It's all 100% free. Um, but it's always great to get a fresh take from someone like yourself and others that are actively engaged in the youth ministry world. Um, John, you're you're that guy, right? Tons of youth ministry experience. Now you're coaching leaders, you're mentoring leaders, you're uh traveling and speaking to young people. Um so when you think biblical truth and you think um the desire that we have to disciple students to become biblically literate and biblically fluent, right? And this is a big part of why we preach what we preach and why we do youth mystery in the first place, right? We want students to be in the word. What are some of your big initial takeaways uh on the topic of biblical truth, some things where you feel like maybe we're doing well in current youth mystery world, some areas where there's some weaknesses that need to be addressed. Um, go ahead, you got the floor. Come at us, man. We're we're ready to go. I mean, not when I say at us, I don't mean me, I mean come at Caleb because he's actually a youth pastor right now.

Speaker 3 11:51

So I I think that I think God's done so many really good things in the church in the 2000s, you know. And if so many people to think like uh Pastor Craig Gershell, I mean U version is about to hit a billion downloads. Yeah, it's a great it it is the um it is the the UVersion Bible app, if you're unfamiliar. Um I know you guys aren't, but I'm just saying, you know, maybe someone's out there and you're like, you didn't know. But um and um uh you know, they're bringing the Bible to so many people. And um, I just filmed my first piece of content for UVersion and I had to redo it because they didn't like that I was wearing a hoodie that showed my chest hair. And so I'm like very on brand for me. I get rejected. Um and uh and shout out uh uh Sam Gershel, uh one of Pastor Craig's sons, he's a youth pastor at one of their campuses and sent me a picture from their youth nights and uh last week, and it looks like they're just really going in. Um so there's so much good good happening, you know. Even even even U version as an example of uh, you know, if they were a publicly traded company, I mean, there's rumors I hear that, you know, uh tech VCs in the Silicon Valley have offered hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, truly, if you sold U version, it would probably be like a $2 billion acquisition. I mean, truly. I mean, and that's in the kingdom of God.

Speaker 1 13:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3 13:16

And I think it's just important to like as we something I've learned is that as we call out where we can improve, I think it is a, it's a it is an important discipline to also celebrate the progress we've made.

Speaker 1 13:27

Yeah.

Reclaiming Bible Literacy and JBQ

Speaker 3 13:27

And and and and because part of that I would say is maybe my biggest critique of this, of the last 30 years of church, is that I think that we got, we were a part of a lot of really apostolic, evangelistic leaders. I mean, I I was an intern when I remember when an usher at my megachurch, Assemblies of God Church, told me I better get that hat off my head in the house of God. And you, you know what I mean? Like, and so we're not that far away. A lot of people still live with this memory of church where we are overly dogmatic, we were overly uh strict, we were, you know, we were crushing people's souls, no grace, no grace, boring Sunday schools, right? This is still a lot of people's memory. And a lot of the churches that we're all a part of have been birthed out of that. The churches that we're looking to were churches that kind of punched out of that. And I think maybe one of the things that that if we could go back in time, I think, you know, which again, of course, hindsight's 2020, but as leaders, we get to apply the hindsight that those who went before us wish they would have had. That's the whole goal of leadership. Like discipleship is I'm telling you, 16-year-old, you shouldn't date this girl so that you can learn from my failures because I dated a girl that had those crazy eyes, and you don't have you shouldn't have to go through the pain. I already paid the pain, you know? Amen. Um I'm sorry, you say crazy eyes.

Speaker 1 14:46

All I can think of is that scene in Toy Story with Mr. Potato Head and his crazy eyes wife. I'm sorry, I just I lost all focus for a second.

Practical Assessment: Using AI for Literacy

Speaker 3 14:53

It's a Jezebel spirit to use the technical Bethel terms. Um it and so so I I think one of the things that we did is we just maybe overcorrected it in our effort to be more attractional, in our effort to um reach the loss, in our effort to be more engaging, all that stuff. I think we threw away a lot of the historical mechanisms that the churches had for uh uh spiritual development and instilling a biblical worldview. I'll even throw this. I know a lot of our listeners would be familiar with the assemblies of God world. When I was a youth pastor, I was like, JBQ is the lamest thing. It is no no-na-na, and they don't want to reach the last, and I'm trying to reach schools, and we got to get this out inside of blah blah blah blah blah blah. Well, you know what? I got a six-year-old. Do you know what I wish my church had? Yeah, JBQ. JBQ. Yeah, 100%. And now I'm like, when I'm when I'm preaching at churches on Sunday and I'm seeing kids' ministries that are killing it, they all they always they almost all have a version of some kind of incentivized scriptural memorization. Yeah praise God. And of course, there's bad ways to do that and weird ways to do that, but I I think that um, like I'll get, I'll get, I'll, I'll give, I'll get real practical for a second. I think every youth pastor in America, what I'm about to say, I should turn this into a business idea. And maybe I will, and I should charge you for it. Other people would charge you for it. But I'm just gonna tell you this is kingdom, okay? We're in this together. Everyone should go into Chat GPT, um, take in some uh uh put in the prompt, some um, you know, this should come from a historically orthodox biblical worldview. Maybe if you're really smart, you you load in some specific theologians or commentaries from logos and you say, based off of these parameters, can you create me a 30 question quiz to assess biblical literacy in a middle schooler or high schooler? Put that into Google forms and then literally just give kids pizza who fill it out. And even if you only have 10 kids that do it, well, that'll teach you two things. One, it'll show you that you at least have another population of your kids who are so biblically unpassionate that they don't even want to assess their own literacy of it. So that would tell you something about your your data right there. Yeah. But let's say you only get 10 kids to do it, it will tell you a lot. And if you really got nerdy with it, you could even say, like, you could you could use AI plus Google Forms to make some kind of pretty robust assessment of just going, what percentage of my kids are biblically literate? And and I think that should ultimately inform you know what you do. And I'll I'll end the train here so we can have some more dialogue, but I I think that that what this does, which is again something that was, I think, a flaw of the last 30 years, that if my best friend in the whole world, Kerry Newhoff, was on here, I'd tell him you got to stop telling people they can't measure spiritual growth. There's literally a biblical standard to meet to measure spiritual growth. It's called the fruit of the spirit. The gifts of the spirit are also not are not nothing either. So if it, you know, if the if if people are flowing in their uh in their gifts, if they're speaking in tongues, if they're prophesying, if they're if you know, that is a sign. There are ways to measure spiritual growth. And we've been told you can all we measure butts and seeds because the only thing you can measure. Uh now, even measuring baptism isn't what it used to be. Yeah. Oh, here comes one of my children. Yes, baby. You got a present for me? Amazing. Oh, wow. Come on. Thank you, Zarya. Zizi, do you want to pray for some youth pastors really quick? Yeah, especially Caleb.

Speaker 1 18:36

He needs all of you.

Measuring Spiritual Growth Beyond Attendance

Speaker 3 18:37

I do need it. Let's go. Why don't you say a prayer to youth pastors? They do for for big kids what Pastor Matt does for you at church. Let's say a prayer. In Jesus' name. Amen. Come on. Let's do it. Wow, what a blessing. All right, baby. Don't I'm gonna finish this recording, okay? Close the door. I love you. What a great little animation. That was awesome. Come on, man. That was great. That's Zarya zeal. Heck yeah. We needed some cute right now. Our middle child. Um, and so I just I just think that especially with today's technology, yeah, it is alive from the pit of hell that we cannot measure the spiritual health of our congregations and our youth ministries. Now, does that mean that does that mean that we can measure their closeness to Christ always? Well, that's a that is that is a litmus test that even Jesus himself leaves a lot of uh uh space. Because I don't want to say it's gray, but there's space. There's a lot of verses where people that you thought were close to Jesus, he's like, hey, go get away from me, for I never knew you. I think there is a that we should be assured in our salvation, but we should always have um, as as the New Testament says, approach our faith with fear and trembling. Like we shouldn't, we should, we should be the temple of of of God, but also be like, man, like I'm I'm in a relationship with the God of the universe. How am I doing, Holy Spirit? Convict me. Like there should be a bit of fear and trembling. Like there should be a, you know, my wife and I just celebrated 10 years of marriage. And um, if I just was like, we're married, we got a ring, so I'm good. We're going to marriage heaven. No, no, no, no. There, one of the number one questions that plagues my mind is have I served her well? Are we really close? Are we intimate? How is our, how is our private, you know, intimacy? How is like, how is it really? You know, it's like gauge. You like if you really want to have a healthy marriage, you have to gauge the depths of the intimacy with it. And there should be a level of trepidation when it goes to like, you know, man, am I saved? Am I with, you know, it's not, it's not the worst question in the world. If a youth kid comes to you and says, Am I saved? Because what a beautiful concern that they have. And and I I think that if they're worried about it, they're probably good. You know what I'm saying? Like if they're stressed about it, they're probably good. So I just think that that ultimately when it comes to biblical literacy, we've got to have a starting point, which is, which is, you know, some data. And I think that there's better ways to what better ways to measure it than we've been told. Right.

Assurance, Intimacy, and Holy Fear

Speaker 2 20:59

Well, yeah, and evaluating feels like a necessity because you can just waste so many years doing things, trying things. You're like, I'm not even sure if this is what we should be doing. Uh it's almost like you're throwing darts at a board you don't even know where the bullseye is. And so having I I love the practical way you gave it, just like here's a really simple way to begin to even evaluate um where your students are at. Uh because I've got to be a good idea.

Speaker 3 21:21

Let me tell some of you really quick, Caleb, like on that, like just to tell myself, guys, I've gotten the big crowds. It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter without a plan. Yeah, it doesn't matter without a way to measure. Like, yeah, I I've done it all, I've seen it all, I've done all the cool things that everyone thinks that they want to do. Nothing in the world is more important or satisfying in pastoral ministry than knowing that a few people really got it.

Speaker 1 21:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3 21:49

And I just want to encourage some people, like, and I know that this is tricky with with senior pastors and and and your leadership, because you, you know, they're putting some goals in front of you and want to reach people, but I'm just saying, like, from in your heart, man, this is the stuff I wish I was chasing when I was younger. Yeah. Sorry, Caleb. I didn't I just I wanted to tell on myself a little bit.

Speaker 2 22:08

Yeah. Well, well, I think that would be really insightful. Like, what's something you wish you had known or wish you could tell yourself back in your young youth pastor days, if you could have a conversation with younger John, what's something you wish you would have caught early? What's something you wish you could pass back on back then?

Speaker 3 22:24

Yeah, I mean, I I spent probably 90% of my energy trying to reach people instead of keep people. And I think that there's there's we if if you're not careful, you can get in this pastoral cycle where you just kind of go, everyone that leaves your ministry, it's their fault. I don't know, bro. I don't know, I don't know that a shepherd looks at a sheep and says, Man, stupid sheep. You know, even the way that certain passages have been taught to us that, you know, the parable of the 99, we 99% of the parable of the hundred sheep uh and and the one that walks away has been preached from an evangelistic versus pastoral perspective.

Speaker 1 23:01

Yeah.

Evaluate What Matters, Not Just Reach

Speaker 3 23:02

But but I would go so far to say that a pastoral perspective is more applicable because we're not talking about a sheep that was never part of the flock. We're talking about a sheep that was part of the flock and drifted away. Now, of course, you can have you could, you know, you you can see that maybe Jesus was was thinking the flock is humanity, you know, and and eat Garden of Eden and that someone had drifted away, you know. And I I think both applications work, but but again, there's the other application, which is to say, I wish I could go back and I wish I would have pursued the found as as much as I chased the lost. And I and I'll even say this having kids, I wish I would have pursued the found harder than the lost. Because I think that Jesus gave his best to his disciples. I think that that that in terms of his relational energy and equity, he died for everyone, yeah, but his best relational equity went to his disciples. Why? Because he realized that the multiplication effort of evangelism was actually found in focusing on Christians. The best way to reach the lost in 2025 is to not focus on the lost, it's to focus on Christians. That's the that's the hack. That's the key. That's what we're all figuring out. All these Gen Z revival, attractional era is over. What we're realizing is that the best way to reach people far from God is to take better care of those who are close to God. Because a healthy Christian cannot help but produce the fruit of evangelism. And and I wish I could go back, man, and and I've even apologized to some of my students. I'd still talk to a ton of them, you know, I and some of my leaders. Is I I've had to repent. And and and and not because I like obsess and hate myself, but I just go, man, like we are not evangelists, we're pastors first. And that's important, that's important. And I I I could talk more about that too. But I I I'd I'd probably correct that that that thing, Caleb.

Keep the Found, Not Just Reach the Lost

Speaker 1 24:46

Yeah. John, talk to us a little bit about I I love Caleb's question, just kind of kind of in that same vein. Like, um, what would you say to yourself and as to others as well related to your preaching, the way that you preached as a younger youth pastor versus the way that you see it now? Um, the focus on biblical truth, literacy, fluency, all of that. Um, I I think that that, I mean, I look at myself and my my early days in youth pastoring, and it was I my my my focus sadly was not how can I increase biblical literacy in my youth ministry. My focus in my preaching was how can I come up with something that's cool or relevant or that's catchy, you know, or something that's branded really well, something that's memorable, right? It was more for the show of it, you know, and the hook of it, as opposed to I'm I want to lay biblical foundation for students. I know that was my story. I'm just I'm just curious what your take is on that for yourself and for others.

Speaker 3 25:40

Yeah, I mean, I I joke uh with my friend Landon McDonald, um, who's another fantastic follow on social media, or to have him out at your anyone's church. Um, just great man of God and teacher. And his dad had a they had a large set of churches in Illinois and they had a campus in Rockford where where I first was. And they their church was a lot more geared towards discipleship and biblical literacy. So their youth group was smaller. Um, and they met on like a different night. So sometimes some of their kids would come to our youth group and some of them would like come up to me after my message and tell me where I was inaccurate. And I remember again thinking, these kids, they need to blah, blah, blah. And I look back and I go, dude, they were actually kind of right.

Speaker 1 26:21

That's awesome. Wow.

Preaching Shifts: From Catchy to Substantial

Confidence, Humility, and God-Given Authority

Speaker 3 26:22

They they they were right. And now, you know, you could make the argument, should they have done it that way? Yeah, you know, maybe not, but you could also make the argument, well, John, why wouldn't you lean into that? What was so, what was so precious about my ego, you know, that that that that something in me didn't go, well, I wonder if they're right. And I just think that's pastors, we gotta stay humble. Yeah, and a lot of us don't know how to to pair confidence with humility. And I think that's a real art. And I and I would tell you, one of the biggest things that that that allows me to do that is the word authority. The more that, because authority is from God. He has given me the authority to lead my family. He's given me the authority to lead, you know, the ministries I'm a part of. He's given me that when I'm on a stage with a microphone, uh, I that authority has come from the pastor I'm preaching for, but from God. And that word authority, the more that I walk in, the authority God's given me, the more it gives me this confidence that's actually paired with humility because it's not a confidence that's just drummed up in my own works or my own ability or my own brilliance. Um, and so I think that's where people normally teeter between insecure or prideful. And I think it's because you're trying to find it within yourself and you've got to just anchor into the authority from God. I I better lead this family because I'm the only one God sent. I better preach this message. I better post this post because I'm the one God sent for this. I got that, I've got the authority. And especially the more I anchor myself in the earthly authority that God's placed there, like my local pastor, my mentors, the pastor in church that I'm speaking for, you know, like I'm I'm I'm set. I have a confidence. And so I think that when you don't have confidence, you're really uh defensive against maybe some of the areas. Like some people turned this podcast off because they didn't like the way I sounded. They were offended. That's a big miss for them. And and those of you who stayed on it, you I would say that you have the confidence to realize I'm not attacking you. I love you, you know? And that's just I've just learned that. It's like if my confidence offends someone, it's it's it's not always my fault. It's probably their insecurities' fault. And so those kids had this childlike faith to come up to me and say, I might know more about the Bible than you, and you, you were, you were wrong. So me and Landon joke about that. And so, yeah, I I just I just think that um one of the the things is that again, we we made theology uncool. We were bashing Bible schools, we were bashing Sunday school, and there's some of that that's probably right, you know, but I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater. I'd also say that that this was pre-social media. And now one of the things that social media has uh a compounded uh effect is that not only do I think the church feels the effects of us kind of distancing ourselves from from biblical literacy and theology, we felt we hurt. It hurt us in 2020. We lost some people, we lost some friends. You know, that's where I'm just like people are like, what about the lost? Make it easy. I'll go, bro. I I'm I'm thinking about all the people that that that got saved that walked away. I like it's hard for me. I'm like, I gotta figure this out. Like, there's things, the way that we reach people hurt uh did not help us to keep them. And so um I'm I'm obsessed by that question. And um, but but the the social media has has compounded that effort by by really making knowledge cool. Like social, for as much as people think that AI and social media is the threat to education, I would go so far to say it's only the threat to to uh the the current structure of education, okay? Because I think kids love to learn. I think kids are learning more than ever. And there's a lot of brain rot, to be sure, but uh, kids are more obsessed with getting their golf swing right, more obsessed with the right kind of engineering, more obsessed with learning Python, more obsessed with being the best Fortnite player and in and building Minecraft in such a way, more obsessed with with even theology. Like some of my my guys that that I get to kind of be a big brother in their lives, Elijah Lamb and David Ladding, these these, you know, some would say TikTok theologians, local church guys, is just which is why I mess with them. Um, they're they're not only good, they're also sought after because there's a lot of teenagers that are really interested in this. So I would just encourage you guys, like not only is it the right thing, it just also happens to be the most advan like uh strategic thing. Because it's we're in the information age.

Speaker 2 30:39

Yeah. I I was gonna ask you about that. Of like, I do feel like there's a fertile soil when it comes to this generation of wanting to know the basics and the things that we I I would either would have said like we're cringy or boring or old school, and they feel like they're hungry for those things for almost like more traditional things. It sounds like you're noticing that that trend as well.

Speaker 3 31:01

Yeah, well, you know, you know in an ever changing world an innovative church isn't the advantage we think it. It is an unchanging church with an unchanging truth is actually a comforting thought to young people, which is why I just saw the stat as of you know August 2025. They released that um Catholicism is has seen its most significant wave of adult conversions in nearly 20 years.

Speaker 2 31:37

Yeah, yep.

Theology Wasn’t the Problem—We Made It Uncool

Speaker 3 31:38

It's huge. And um, again, that's not me saying we shall become Catholics. I'm not saying that. Yeah. Um shout out Martin Luther. You know what I'm saying, bruh. Yeah, I don't need a Pope. I got John Calvin on it just. Calvin is. Um not that either. Um, but yeah, I just think something to think about is that every day there's a new app. Every day, self-driving car, everything's changing, always changing. Uh meme coins up and down, the market up and down, presidents up and down. Even our president, our president is a meme lord now. We have a we have a national leader, and it probably will never go back. I it will probably always be that what whoever holds the highest offices of the lands are are gonna be media figures because that's the world we live in. And and and and that's whatever. I'm not trying to make a political statement. I'm just trying to make a cultural assessment. And so to me, when church tries to be cool and relevant and funny, I think that a lot of kids like, yeah, dog, I see that everywhere. Right. But when church is just kind of like, yo, we believe in this thing that, you know, for the past 2,000 years, we've outlasted every empire. We've been a part of every major invention, we've survived every war. The Visigoths didn't stop us, Rome fell, the church didn't, you know, like we have these traditions called communion and confession and baptism and hymns that have literally been there before Drake. They'll be there after Drake, Justin Bieber, we've seen Simon the Sorcerer, we've lived this life. We're anchored into something deeper. I think that's then you pair that with like how much kids love anime and Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings and all these fictional worlds, and kind of lean into the fact that, like, yo, and on top of that, we got Nephilim. On top of that, we got the Leviathan. And top of that, we got them 10 plagues. We got this guy named Joseph. He talked to a burning bush 420. No, I'm just kidding. You know, and it I just, it's just to me, our advantage, like the last 30 years of the church, it seems like the churches that were the most future focused and innovative had the advantage. And and there are some churches that just never caught up that are about to be the leaders because they're just like, yeah, man, we got Joe, and he's 57, and he just knows stuff. Right. I think young people are like, yes, I'm you up.

Speaker 1 33:59

Yeah, I'm yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 34:01

Yeah, and I I love what you're talking about here too, of like there is a courage that comes with having to speak the truth. Uh, you're it's kind of just echoing throughout everything you're saying. Even when it comes to our preaching and teaching of students, that courage. However, there's there's a little bit of a tension with what you were talking about of like, okay, in 2020, we lost a lot. We're trying to go after the found, or sorry, yeah, trying to go after that, you know, the one who was a part of us who left. There sometimes feels like there's a tension uh of sharing the truth um with reaching those people who've left the church, uh, because either they're hurt by it or they feel frustrated by it or they are deconstructing. How do you live in that tension uh of because I I feel very um convicted about sanitizing the word. I don't want to make into anything else, but also to strategically reach those people who feel like they were disillusioned during that that time or other times as well.

Speaker 3 34:56

Yeah, I mean, it's a great and real question. Um I think another thing that we were taught in the last 30 years is a very pro uh programmatic view over relational view of church. Meaning the main way we think about interacting with the lost is the sermons we preach. When that's not how Paul would have seen it.

Speaker 1 35:18

Right.

Gen Z’s Hunger for Substance and Stability

Speaker 3 35:18

Paul was not writing the Philippians thinking, oh my God, what if one of the Praetorian picks this up? Like, oh man, is it gonna offend? No, no, no. He's like, bro, there's some stuff. I gotta help old Lydia out over there because you know, Eodia is arguing with Sentucky, or how you can never say her name if biblical scholars. It's like it looks like it would be Syntaich in Greek, but it's like, from what I can tell, it would be pronounced Sentucky, which is like hilarious because it's Kentucky, but like Paul's just like, man, I gotta help the church. And he's like, this is urgent to me, and we gotta, we gotta, you know, and so I just think that like to me, church gatherings, the primary focus should not be how do we accommodate the lost. It should be how do we equip the saints. We should be aware of the lost.

Speaker 1 36:02

Yeah.

Speaker 3 36:02

But then also, because here's the advantage like we there's a lot of other stuff we can do Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you know, Thursday, Friday that is relational or even programmatic. I mean, to this day, I think one of the best strategies I've ever employed in youth ministry, we'll do it here, um, is we just dodgeball tournaments on Saturdays in between football and basketball season. And there was, we prayed, sang the national anthem, and we just played dodgeball. And it was a relational connection. And I met, I would meet all the, you know, we would work really hard to get a lot of the local athletes. I'd build a relationship with them. So when I was at their game, I wasn't just some weird guy or my team. And you build relational equity. I I don't think your sermon is where if if you're if you're banking on your sermon to be the crux of relational equity, I think you're doing it wrong. The relational equity should be the fact that you're in their life. They see your works, they see your love. So even if they disagree with your truth, they can't deny the fact that you have cleaned up their school, you have helped walk their dad out of addiction, that you have just loved them well. And so I don't know. I think we put too much pressure on the sermon to be the sole piece of conversation. Yeah. And and and then the last thing I would say on that is just remembering like there was a whole lot of people. Jesus didn't try to convince too many people, y'all. Yeah, he said it, if they weren't with it, he kept walking. Yeah, he's the one that taught us the parable of the soil. And I think what he's doing, and even when he sent the disciples out two by two, he would say, Hey, if they don't receive you, shake the dust off your feet. Right.

Speaker 1 37:35

Yeah.

Speaker 3 37:36

Jesus is prepping the disciples to say, Hey, you're gonna get rejected a lot. He never said change the message. He never said, like, be culturally relevant, he just said be relationally aware.

Speaker 1 37:45

Yeah.

Truth with Courage Amid Deconstruction

Speaker 3 37:46

And love them and heal them. And, you know, I think even some of the times when we read the healings in the New Testament, we forget that some of these people, a lot of these people were being healed pre-salvation. So Jesus is showing his supernatural power and love to pave the way for the truth of God. So he, you know, and yeah, it also helps coming to faith when your foot's been healed. But we also see a lot of, we see people healed of leprosy. So in our context, that'd be like being healed of cancer, and they didn't even come to faith in Christ.

Speaker 1 38:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3 38:16

And so I just think that like, I think we worry about it too much. They're like, and if you're worried about how someone thinks, ask them. Stop. Sometimes we we pre-expel, oh, the lost people. They're gonna I go, dog, they're on TikTok. They hear everyone give their hot takes. They're like, I actually think people are more weirded out today when the church doesn't give a hot take than when it does. Yeah. And I don't think hot takes mean being political. I'm actually like, here's my hot take. I'm actually thinking, uh, you know, prior to this last election, I was the one saying we need to be more political. Now I'm looking at them like a guy, y'all, some of y'all need to chill out, okay? Like, like it and in and just because it's just tiresome, the pop politics are are a huge part of everyone's social media consumption. And I think that the church, I I think, you know, I think maybe, you know, there's other ways to talk about these things. But if you're worried about how someone thinks about something, exercise pastoral ministry and just ask them. Yeah. Hey, what do you think of that message? You know, like, you know, I think that that's the type of social media you should be creating, not content. You should be creating community. You should be creating digital pathways for people to give you feedback on how they like the church, how they like the student ministry. Stop making trending posts and stop posting cool graphics. Nobody cares. Uh, I shouldn't say nobody cares. I know you worked hard on that. But but what's more important is that you're creating a way for them to talk to you and talk to your leaders and share about how they're doing it.

Equip the Saints; Reach the Lost Relationally

Speaker 1 39:43

Well, and like I was I was raised in the attractional ministry model, and that model, uh, many good things came out of it, but one of the things came out of it, and this is what I hear you saying, John, specifically about our preaching, that model taught us that our discipleship and the effectiveness of a discipleship will happen through our stage communication ability and skill. And and it went way too far. And now there are some where there are moments, and I I would even say this is true of my life in ministry, especially when I was still youth pastoring, where we almost made an idol out of preaching and the ability to preach, right? We we put it at that level. I I love the focus, John, that you're kind of bringing us back to because we're in the middle of this shifting, right? We see this shifting happening with more and more churches are realizing we got to get out of this attractional model. We have to be more missional, we have to be more discipleship focused. That doesn't mean we lose our style, our substance, the quality, uh, the excellence by which we do things, right? The methodologies that we use and the way that God's wired us, but our focus on our mission has to be different. So I I love what what you're saying there. Um, uh a question for you, just because you you brought this idea up, and I I know for some people, some of our listeners, they're probably wondering about this. So, what what's your view on how we should and should not leverage AI, Chat GPT, you know, even the like I love your idea about like, hey, have a punch out 30 questions for you, but there's probably some that are listening, they're like, oh, you know, like yeah, so I just would love to get your take on it.

Relational Equity Beats Stage Strategy

Create Feedback, Not Just Content

Speaker 3 41:14

Yeah, I I would say that um, I mean, I don't I don't it's a big topic. I'm writing a book right now that includes AI as part of our subject scope, but um it's a big topic. We need to keep talking about it, keep thinking about it. But in general, I think that it should be the the tool and um and and and not the um not the not the intelligence, if that makes sense. Like like as long as you're giving it your thoughts and your brain and you're putting into it to accelerate what you're already doing, you know, like then it's a helpful tool. But if you're going to it, if you're going to AI to tell you what you should preach on or tell you things, like I don't think it's good. So like in even an example is yesterday I was work, I was just doing some more sermon prep, and I had logos on one of my iPads and I had ChatGPT on the other. And I'm reading logos, like solid biblical theology with commentaries and and tested and true. And but then it maybe it would, it would, I would have a question that I wanted some a deeper thing. What I'd do is I'd copy and paste the reference point from logos, put in chat GPT, and say use this as a reference point, tell me three other cultural realities about the church and Philippi. You know, and like, you know, um, I think it's good for brainstorming, um, but I would be careful to use it for content creation. And by you, but I mean, utilize it for content creation, but don't use it as content creation. Yeah. And I just think as long as you're using it as a tool and you're making it work for you, you know, like you don't work for it, then I think, then I think you're okay. And I invite the Holy Spirit in for real. Like literally, like it is a point of ethics. It's the same. Also, though, man, if it helps some people copy other people's sermons less, then maybe it's actually a way more positive thing, you know? And that and that pressure is real, you know? You know, and and so yeah, I think we should, it's all about how you use it, you know. I think I'll say this. I have a bit of a contrarian take about some of the data about how it makes kids dumb. Um, if it it makes them dumb based off of standardized testing, well, standardized testing was invented to teach kids how to work in factories and has never been an accurate uh uh uh assessment of raw intelligence or creativity. So if AI makes kids worse at school, I'm okay with it because I think school sucks, like overall, you know, like and I uh and I'm thankful for a lot of educational institutions that are getting it right. Like I'm starting my master's in theology this month at SEU, and I'm thankful for an educational uh uh uh organization that's keeping me grounded and accountable while not boxing me into old ways of thinking and doing, you know? And so I think if you study a lot of educational um uh disciplines, it seems like writing original thought is the greatest assessment of, you know, um understanding. And and and I think that that's where we've got to measure it. And AI can either be your greatest accelerant to to to help you research and learn more so you can write original thought. But if AI is replacing original thought or replacing time where you're generating original thought or revelation from the word of God, that's one I think it's a huge, it's a huge hindrance. Right. Love it. Great take.

Speaker 2 44:43

Heck yeah. Dude, thanks, thanks for shooting straight with us for real. I think this is in an era where there's just a lot of shifts, whether that's in the church or just with AI, which feels like it's just a massive game changer. Um, I I think it's really good to just be able to have really honest, straight up conversation and feel like we don't have to hold anything back. Yeah. Um, and I think this is just so beneficial for whether you're a youth leader and you're trying to learn how to navigate it with your small group or you're uh uh a youth pastor um who maybe is pastoring a large church. Like this is just so beneficial uh when it comes to again, rooting yourself in biblical truth, which is where everything comes out of um and refocusing on the things that we know are gonna generate fruit because I don't I I don't want to waste my time. I don't want to spend years doing things that aren't gonna work. I want to honestly go back to the simple things, the simple truth of what the Bible has. So yeah.

AI in Sermon Prep: Tool, Not Teacher

Speaker 3 45:34

Well, let me let me just show you guys one thing really quick uh before we wrap. I I I think this is super practical. This is, you know, this is my guy Graham, uh, who's one of my students at Elevation, and he started this thing in his in his house this year called Living Room Charlotte. And it's literally like, I mean, the this is like it's just grown every single week. And this is a kid, I mean, he's reaching people at his school. Students are sharing the word of God. These are these cool kids, and like you're like, oh man, how did that happen? Okay, this is a kid from Elevation Youth, which many of you think is the coolest and they're the biggest and everything. I'm telling you, the this is probably one of the most exciting and important things happening, even in a youth ministry with all the bells and whistles. Right. Because at the end of the day, students know it's real and they know it's fake. And right now, they're being marketed to at a higher level than ever before. And and and I'm what I want, what you don't see in this is that this kid really started uh this journey two years ago. And a lot of us want um fruit without the discipleship process. Yeah. And if you want to see explosive results in your youth ministry, number one, it's gonna come from it's gonna come through your students, not through you. And it's going to take discipleship over time to see explosive evangelistic results. Yeah. And I just want to encourage some people that at the end of the day, the greatest tool that we have, the greatest advantage we have is pastoral ministry and just developing people, taking them on a journey, teaching them how to follow Jesus for themselves, and then really making them someone who knows how to walk in the authority of a believer with the gifts of the spirit, the fruits of the spirit, the knowledge of the word of God. And I'm telling you, some of us, and I've been guilty of this too, we're so focused on getting the next 50 people at our event that we're actually working backwards. And I think that certain ministries need to figure out how to take a season of more focused discipleship and development. And they will be blown away by how four months later, eight months later, it might even take two years, you see this explosive results of evangelism because you've created a multiplication effect like Jesus did. Yeah. Jesus took three years with 12 guys, and most of us want to see someone become a student leader after they've been saved for three months. Yeah. And Jesus spent most of his time with his disciples who were saved. And a lot of us get sometimes caught up and just constantly trying to reach new people. Yeah. The best way to reach new people is to disciple and develop, and you'll watch them blow the ministry up in ways you couldn't even realize. So I just, I just wanted to point that out of like, this is a huge ministry. Elevation youth is amazing. And and Pastor Tori and AJ and Carlos and Gina and DeVee, so many people, they're they're killing it. But the most exciting thing happening was just started by a kid who just who had been discipled and now can bear the weight of their evangelistic responsibility.

Speaker 2 48:49

Yeah, something that's just reverberating through all these podcasts that we're doing is the long game over a long period of time, faithfulness, sticking it out and doing the simple things that aren't the most sexy. Caleb, you and I have been talking about that for five years now.

Original Thought and Ethical Use of AI

Speaker 1 49:02

And it's a weekly thing I have to beat into my head. Yeah, because historically, you know, our home church has been the youth ministry in particular, very focused on the attractional ministry model. Right. And I've said to you for the last five years, man, you have to have a season. Just like what John has just said. John, I think that what you just said is more than a hot take on your part. I feel like that's a prophetic word for many churches and many youth pastors across the country. Take a season to dig deep, build the roots, build the foundation, disciple. Um, and and you're you're getting ready to say this, Caleb, and I'm gonna beat you too. We've had so many more recent podcast interviews that we've done where the conversation has been stop separating discipleship and evangelism. Evangelism happens best and healthiest when it's a natural outflow of a well-discipled life. Right, right. And uh you're you're confirming the same thing, John. It's amazing. What a great conversation, dude. Thanks so much.

Speaker 3 49:54

Thanks for having me, guys.

Speaker 1 49:55

It's fun. This has been incredible. Um, we love it, man, and uh just excited for you to uh be on the podcast and also just invest and pour into the Lead Generation fam and all those that are listening here. So, John, thank you. Caleb, thank you, um, Nakota, thank you for sleeping through the whole thing. Oh, now he's up. Okay, he knows and John, thank your daughter, who was the dude, the hands down, the star of the whole episode. That was pretty fun, man. That was amazing. Um, but thanks for joining us for Vitals for Youth Ministry. If you love the podcast, uh give it a like, give it a subscribe, give it a share, give it a review, whatever platform you're on. And uh thanks for being with us. Uh, we'll see you on the next episode of Vitals for Youth Ministry.