Preparing for Gen Alpha, Discipling Digital Natives, & Quiet Revival in Youth Ministry

In this episode, we sit down with Sam McCollough from Feed.Bible to explore hopeful trends in youth ministry and equip next generation leaders to guide students toward lasting faith. We unpack what it means to be “emerging committed,” identify markers of spiritual formation, and share strategies for discipling students in a world shaped by AI and digital culture.

Discover how to close the gap between nominal faith and resilient belief through authentic youth discipleship, including:

• Trends in Gen Z engagement and the quiet revival
• Understanding Gen Alpha as digital natives navigating an AI-driven world
• Defining and spotting emerging committed Christians
• The 65% Christian claim vs. the 16% committed core
• Practical ways for next generation leaders to move students from nominal to resilient faith
• Using AI as a tool for growth, not a replacement for pastoral responsibility
• Modeling wise tech use for students and parents
• Concrete next steps for sermons, small groups, and leader training

Whether you lead a youth ministry, mentor student leaders, or are passionate about spiritual formation, this episode with Sam McCollough equips you with insights and strategies to disciple the next generation with wisdom and courage.

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Transcript

Intro

Sam McCollough 0:00

Here's one thing that's really encouraging. Like, even the reports that are coming out from Europe, young people, Gen Zers are more interested in the faith than they've ever been. Like they're more interested in Jesus than they've ever been. It's called the quiet revival. Like we are seeing revival happening in young people. I mean, the data's coming out on Gen Z that they are the most engaged in church than any other generation right now. So that is a huge win.

Caleb Leake 0:29

Hey everyone, welcome to Vitals for Youth Ministry podcast, a resource by Lead the Generation. And if you haven't already checked out Vitals for Youth Ministry, it's a completely free resource. So make sure to check that out. But my name's Caleb. I'm your host. I got with me Aaron. He's the founder of Vitals for Youth Ministry and Lead the Generation. And uh my faithful co-host. Let's go, bro. Start of season two, bro.

Eran Holt 0:52

Season two. Season two.

Caleb Leake 0:54

And also, I mean, it's a day, it's a good day because this, I mean, at the time of recording, Steelers are in the playoffs. We're a little nervous. I you know, I'm full of delusional hope. Of course.

Eran Holt 1:05

Of why not? Of course, we should be, because it's a home game and it's a Monday night, and we haven't lost on a Monday night in forever, but it also does kind of set us up for like Yeah.

Caleb Leake 1:13

For a huge disappointment. Yeah. I mean, it would be since 1991. We haven't lost a home Monday night football game.

Eran Holt 1:21

But we also haven't won a playoff game since the same year.

Caleb Leake 1:24

So which stat do you lean into? Yeah, right. I guess we'll find out.

Eran Holt 1:27

Right now we're leaning to the hopeful stats, and we chose to record before the game rather than after the game.

Caleb Leake 1:33

Because we knew we'd be really sad and disappointed after the game. Potentially. Potentially. Potentially. Yeah, I guess, or we'll be ill.

Eran Holt 1:39

Or we'd be so hyped that we wouldn't be able to even talk, you know, that's right in a sensible way.

Caleb Leake 1:42

So if we lose

Season Two Kickoff And Steelers Banter

Caleb Leake 1:44

tonight, again, we don't know that. And also we could be winning the Super Bowl by the next time we record another podcast. So you, my friend, are so full of hope. So I see the pathway. Aaron Rodgers can't.

Eran Holt 1:57

So, you know, a week ago around midnight, when that that infamous field goal miss happened, the best moment put us into the playoffs. I quote directly from the group chat Fantasy Football League at our church, of which both of us are a part. Yep. Where you, my friend, said, I am literally crying right now.

Caleb Leake 2:19

I also in that group chat at halftime was like, I'm turning the game off. So that's true. You get a whole actually that group chat really is like a time capsule of what it was.

Eran Holt 2:27

You showed the full spectrum of youth past your emotion right there.

Caleb Leake 2:30

The quickest stage is going home to the this is the best day of my life. Yeah, that was amazing. Well, uh, we'll see what happens. But uh, man, we're excited about this podcast. Again, this is the start of

Introducing Sam And OneHope/Feed

Caleb Leake 2:42

season two. Yeah. Um, we have a guest coming on in a little bit, uh, Sam McCullough. We're in a conversation with him today.

Eran Holt 2:47

Yeah, Sam's an incredible leader. Um, he is the director of Next Gen Ministry. Um, I don't know if that's his actual title, but he's with One Hope and feed.bible. Shout out to One Hope, the incredible organization. Um, and feed.bible is um part of their focus of resourcing and equipping next gen leaders. Um, if you've never uh seen any of their resources, if you've never been on their website, it'll be in the show notes. You should go there. A lot of really high quality stuff that's also free. And I think One Hope is on the leading edge of data and understanding generations. And they're to my knowledge, they're one of the very first to be um producing data already about gen alpha. Usually, as youth pastors, we have to wait, like we have to get like six years into a generation before someone's even saying, here's what this generation is all about.

Caleb Leake 3:34

Right.

Eran Holt 3:34

And they're just way ahead of the game. And and so that our conversation with Sam is gonna be rich. You're gonna love it.

Caleb Leake 3:38

Yeah, make sure to stay tuned for that conversation. Before we get into that, uh, in this season

New “Vitals Check” Segment

Caleb Leake 3:43

two, we we decided we wanted to introduce a new segment. We're like we're gonna call it vitals check. Uh where you know, me and Aaron, yeah, like a little like vitals. That was good, Aaron. Yeah, I really like that.

Eran Holt 3:54

My Apple Watch does it. I when I when I do my vitals check for you. Well, my heart check.

Caleb Leake 3:58

He tells me sometimes it is like, hey, you're dying and you need to breathe or stand up.

Eran Holt 4:02

That's what it that's what it was saying to you after that, after that game last week.

Caleb Leake 4:06

That's right. So imagine this is like the youth ministry Apple Watch. All right. We're doing a vitals check to to see uh how you're don't look for the app, it doesn't really exist. No, it doesn't. That would be cool. It would be.

Eran Holt 4:19

But me and Aaron have lots of conversations with youth pastors. Real-time feedback as you're preaching, your watch just starts to tell you like it's like you forgot what you were supposed to say there. You're doing great right now. No, this is bad. This is really bad.

Caleb Leake 4:29

It's time to move on. They're not with you. Uh, but yeah, me at me and Aaron have lots of conversations with different youth pastors. Obviously, I'm a youth pastor in my fifth year of youth ministry now.

Speaker 38 4:39

Yeah.

Caleb Leake 4:39

Um, and so that as you're you know, talking with lots of people, conversing, whether it's in cohorts or coaching conversations or conversations that have come from the podcast, we often hear the tension points, the struggles, the situations or problems that youth pastors find them in. And so we thought uh Vitals Check is a great chance for us to talk about, maybe even diagnose what's going on inside of your youth ministry. And so if you have a specific question that you want us to talk about, you can uh submit that on our Instagram or even just reach out to me and Aaron directly. Yeah. Um, but one that's a hot button topic right now is AI specifically. Um, and can I tell you, me and Aaron talk about AI probably every time we see each other because Aaron is like, bro, you'll never guess what Chat GPT helped me do recently. I just replaced my HVAC system by myself.

Eran Holt 5:34

Something like that. Not the HVAC, but right, but a lot of other things.

Caleb Leake 5:38

Right. It's like always a new home project. I'm sure your year in review for ChatGPT was like, you have learned how to do that. Did you watch yours?

Eran Holt 5:44

Absolutely. Yeah, I watched mine. I it was so funny.

Caleb Leake 5:47

Yeah, it's great. Mine actually said I was a youth pastor CEO, is what I said. Mine was like, thank you. Uh, but there's a lot of people on different sites. Some people think that AI is horrible, we shouldn't be using it. Other people are like, this is something that we need to get uh into. And so and so here's a question that I think a lot of people were wrestling with, and something we had someone said I've started to uh using AI to help write messages, small group questions, and even volunteer training outlines. Uh, but I'm starting to feel weird about it. Where's the line between using a tool and outsourcing my pastoral responsibility? Yeah. So let's let's dialogue about this. Okay. Um, I know Aaron, you have a lot of thoughts already. And again, you're probably hearing this from a lot of other youth pastors as well, since you're still in the youth ministry world. Yeah.

Eran Holt 6:31

So my first thought would be um I would just I'd say zoom out from AI for just a moment and let's remember that church and church leadership has always struggled with technology and with advancement of technology in relation to culture and to leadership. So in that way, this is not necessarily a new struggle for us. So um church leaders struggled when the printing press came around because up until that point, um, only the priest or only the pastors, you know, actually had a copy of God's word. And so the people just completely trusted them, you know.

Caleb Leake 7:09

Right.

Eran Holt 7:10

Um, so that was a struggle. Like, what do we do? Do we embrace the printing press? How do I mean think about how ironic this sounds now? They were wrestling with this question. Is it a really is it really a good idea for people to have their own copy of the Bible? Yeah. I mean, just think about that. Right now we were like, what? Like, how how is that even? Yeah, otherwise. Yes. So the church has always had this issue of whatever it is. I mean, the whatever the technology is. So it's like we had that issue with the printing press. Church leaders had issues with sound systems and microphones whenever they were first being um produced, because the the thought was among some um, can your voice really continue to be anointed by the Holy Spirit if it's going through a digital process?

Caleb Leake 7:51

Wow. Right?

Eran Holt 7:52

Wild.

Caleb Leake 7:53

Well, that also is reminiscent of what we're hearing now, too.

Eran Holt 7:55

Yeah, right. So, I mean, you could just pick and choose all the way through, all the all the way up through, you know, buildings and you know, air air conditioned rooms and padded seats and um the music wars of church and what instruments are anointed, which ones are not, you know. I mean, just on and on and on it goes, right? And so even in the early days of the internet, we had this same, you know, this same struggle. So the struggle is not new. So in that regard, I would just say like everyone take a deep breath.

Caleb Leake 8:22

Right.

Eran Holt 8:23

And remember, we've been here before. The topic is different, obviously, with AI, but the issue is still the same.

Caleb Leake 8:28

So for then let's okay, because a lot of it, I think a lot of the main tension comes to um, am I gonna am I going to outsource again my pastoral voice, me hearing from the Holy Spirit, and AI is just writing my messages. Um, is that even trustworthy? Is that anointed the way it is? Like, what about that tension where people are feeling like, am I am I potentially relying on something and replacing

Where’s The AI Line For Pastors

Caleb Leake 8:57

the voice of the Holy Spirit? Because I have something that can give me an answer to any question I'm gonna have. And it's pretty effective, too.

Eran Holt 9:03

Yeah. So I mean, decades ago, pastors wrestled with the question, how much should I lean on a commentary for writing a sermon? How much should I lean on a book of sermons by Charles Spurgeon or A.W. Tozer? You know what I mean? So so I the only reason I say that is because I just don't want our generation to think we have a brand new challenge with AI that no one has ever had before. So this is all new. No, every generation has had this challenge, it's just been different for them, and every generation has therefore had to learn how do I, in a healthy way, leverage and use the tools that are available to me in my moment in history, in my era of history, in my generation, how do I leverage and use those tools in a healthy way? Right. So the the person who submitted this question, um, I mean, they're already asking it in a healthy way. They're saying, How do I know like necessarily what the line is? Like, how do I use this tool? When do I know like I've crossed the line, right? Um, and I and I would say that we can probably talk through like, here's a couple, you know, principles that are probably good across the board.

Caleb Leake 10:07

They're clear and obvious black and white. It's probably clear that we shouldn't cross. Yeah, yeah.

Eran Holt 10:11

Right. And then and then at the same time, there's this is a very nuanced conversation too, where there's gonna be people that take different views or different slants on, you know, certain things. Right. You know, so on and so on.

Caleb Leake 10:21

Yeah, here would be my opinion. I would say revelation has to come from the Holy Spirit. Revelation has to come from the Word of God, right?

Eran Holt 10:30

Right.

Caleb Leake 10:31

And that I I I if if AI is writing my message for me or writing everything for me, I think we actually can can remove the Holy Spirit speaking into our lives and potentially lose that muscle of learning to wrestle through what exactly is the Holy Spirit speaking to me. However, I think if it's a refiner, so if it's not the revelation, but it's the refiner, where it's like, here is here is what I feel like my main point is supposed to be, but I I I feel like it's not quite there in the wording or I'm not quite able to communicate and you can put it in and then it starts to give you different ideas. To me, I feel like there's no I have no problem with it refining and sharpening. It just can't be the revelation, it can't be the initial idea of what we're working with.

Eran Holt 11:13

Yeah, I like your boundary there. I think that's wise. I think that boundary not only applies to AI, but it applies to how you use Google. Absolutely so research for a sermon, how you use logos Bible software to reach for a sermon. Like I have a I have a pretty good sized library with logos, and I mean it's that's pretty easy to just and logos has built I AI built into it now as well. Right. So um it's like that those resources come really quickly and really easily, right? Versus like I remember my dad's generation, my my dad's a retired pastor, but my dad's generation, like if he had an office this size, you know, this like the studio, it would be like just the just you know, ceiling to floor books, right? Right, and then a wall full of filing cabinets with every single sermon illustration or magazine article and newspaper clipping, you know, like categorized in different files, and so they he had to do like that hard work of wrestling, but he was still utilizing resources that others had produced in the same way that you and I are utilizing those same resources we're just doing it digitally, right? Whether it's I use Google, I use logos, or now I used AI, right? And because of the nature of AI, it gave me a much more condensed, very quick, easy version of how to study it or how to, you know, and that's the attraction to it. It's like you could spend hours Googling, and in the same time, AI can do all that for you in a minute and give you a lot a lot of information. And and that feels kind of cheap.

Caleb Leake 12:47

Right. I maybe this is a hot take. I would say if you're using Google search, if you're using logos, if you are using uh if you're in your Bible app, you type in peace and you find a verse about peace, but you're very anti-AI, it feels a little hypocritical to you. Yeah, I I I'd agree. Because it's like you're you're doing it, it's actually the same thing. It's just again, it's speeding the process. And I would say, because I think a lot of people were like, again, the Holy Spirit's not an AI and it's it's using something different. Does the power of scripture change if AI says it? If if AI confesses Jesus' Lord and says that, is does the do the power comes does the power come from me? Are you speaking it, or does the power come from the words itself? Yeah.

Eran Holt 13:30

I've used it like so I I've actually um this past summer for um you know, traveling and speaking at camps and stuff like that, my sermons were already all written but without using AI. Um and um but then I took them and I ran them through AI.

Caleb Leake 13:47

Yeah.

Eran Holt 13:48

And I would just give it basic prompts like um are there any gaps where does this not flow well? Pressure tested. Yeah. Uh um, are you missing any depth of information from scriptures here? You know what I mean? Just some of it was out of curiosity because I I wanted to kind of see like how does this tool actually work?

Speaker 38 14:05

Right.

Eran Holt 14:05

Right. And some of it was out of just a desire for, hey, if I can make this sermon better, right? And I or or if there's deeper biblical truth here that I'm missing because I just didn't, you know, have the right resources or the right Google search or the right book in my library and logos to unpack this particular thing, like okay, great. Like I I'll use this as a tool in that way. Right.

Caleb Leake 14:27

It's a refiner. You're refining things from that. So obviously, again, there's discernment here. People can can use AI for negative always.

Eran Holt 14:36

Any technology people can use in the same way you can use music for for negative, podcast for negative, the internet for negative, social media for I mean, all of it. Everything we've talked about, sound systems and microphones, right? Like, and so that would that's always been the church's uh fear factor. Right. Is this thing gonna be bad? Right. Well it could be if leaders don't harness it and use it well in a in a healthy way, right? Right. So I think AI falls into that same category. Is it probably the most powerful tool? Much more powerful than yes, without a doubt. And I think that's what has a lot of us scared because it's like whoa, it just right it did that, right?

Caleb Leake 15:19

Like I just and we're not getting into uh the idea of creative integrity, how does that play into the space of you know, graphic design, music creation, like that kind of stuff? And I don't think we even need to touch that because I think that's a whole other conversation. But as far as using it a tool to enhance what your youth ministry is doing, as long as it's being stewarded in the right way, I feel like there's no problem. But we'd love to hear from you guys too. If you feel like you have a thought or you have something you'd like to share, or you'd want to toss your hat in the ring, let us know. Um, because this isn't gonna be an extended conversation because it's here to stay, and uh, we'll probably be talking about this, you know, for the next 15, 20 years because it's just gonna continue to evolve.

Eran Holt 15:58

Yeah, I would tell you don't miss out on the tool because you you're afraid. Right. And um give yourself some healthy boundaries. Right. You know, you know, I mean, uh sit down, have the conversation, wrestle through it, talk to your pastor about it, talk to your your leaders about it, see where the tension points are at. Um your kids are using it. Yeah, your students are using it. Absolutely. So in the same way that as I was kind of, I mean, I s I I finished youth pastoring, you know, about 10 years ago, but um that was like when social media was really like on the, you know, like you know, Facebook was already kind of going down, Instagram was kind of flying up, you know, and snap and all that kind of stuff. It was at the early stages of all of that. And you can run away from that and stick your head in the sand and and think that you're modeling something for your students. You're really not, right? You're just all you're modeling is you have fear, right? And you don't know how to handle this. So as leaders, especially spiritual leaders, our responsibility, our mantle as a shepherd, is to at least learn it enough that we determine whether or not we want to use it as a tool, but maybe more importantly, modeling well and in a healthy way how we think students should use it in relation to their life, their studies, their education, their growth as a follower of Christ, their understanding of the

Healthy Boundaries And Tools vs. Revelation

Eran Holt 17:18

word of God, all of that. If you just act like it's not there, well, it is. It's not, it's not like to your point, it's not going away. Yeah, and students are using it and they're not gonna stop using it.

Caleb Leake 17:26

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is something we actually talked more about in our conversation with Sam McCullough that we're gonna be getting to now. And so we're excited about that. Make sure to stay tuned. We'll be right back after the break. Today's episode is sponsored by Allison Park Leadership Academy. This is a ministry school based at a Pittsburgh PA, and it's one focused year of practical hands-on ministry training as well as solid biblical teaching. APLA is passionate about training you, equipping you, and sending you out into what God has called you to. And really that's the main mission is to help you step into what God has made you for. And so, for more information or even to apply today, you can head to Allison Park Leadership Academy.com.

Eran Holt 18:07

Hey, today's episode is brought to you by WorldServe International. If you're not familiar with WorldServe, absolutely incredible organization that has helped bring clean drinking water to over seven million people in sub-Saharan Africa. Even beyond clean drinking water, WorldServe empowers women by providing biodegradable sanitary pads to adolescent girls, helping them stay in school, helping them continue to pursue their education. WorldServe also supports food security by helping communities learn how to grow their own food through drip irrigation, resulting in hundreds of thousands of pounds of food distributed each year. One simple way to get involved is through the well. We're gonna put a link in the show notes, go check it out. Supporters uh sign up to support WorldServe through $20 a month. That's really, really simple, but you're making a huge difference providing clean drinking water uh all over Africa. So, WorldSurf, thank you. Thanks for being a sponsor today for the podcast.

Model Wise Tech Use For Students

Eran Holt 19:13

Sam, so good to have you on the podcast today. Always an honor to hang with you, talk with you. You sharpen us. Uh, you're not a stranger to the Lead the Gen fam. And uh so thanks for joining us today, Sam.

Sam McCollough 19:23

Hey, what's up, guys? So honored to be here. Seriously, love both of you and excited to hang out today. Yeah, yeah, good too.

Caleb Leake 19:29

Happy to have you, man. And uh we like to kick off every time we have a guest

Sam's Wild Youth Bonfire Story

Caleb Leake 19:33

uh because we have a lot of youth pastors, youth uh people, people around youth ministry, um, because they tend to have a stupid youth story. I always say it's like a plague, uh a stupid plague that follows us, whether it's an intern or a youth student or us doing something that's a little bit moronic, uh, but it creates a great story.

Eran Holt 19:53

It's like youth ministry's own version of COVID. It's just it's just not near as dramatic.

Caleb Leake 19:59

Yeah, yeah, but no one can escape it. Okay, it has a 100% success rate. Uh, and so, man, the floor is yours. We'd love to hear your your youth pastor, youth ministry story.

Sam McCollough 20:09

I love it. Yeah, doing stupid things is like a rite of passage for youth pastors. And so um, not that you know, we're stupid, it's just we happen to do stupid things.

Caleb Leake 20:18

And so it's good, that's good. It's not an identity thing. It's just not you're okay. Like we see you.

Eran Holt 20:23

You're not a bad person. You just did a bad thing.

Sam McCollough 20:26

Wow, you're not an idiot, you just do dumb things. It's okay, it's okay. We love you. Uh, you know, actually, so so my story. Well, yeah, I actually did something really stupid in this story. Let me take it back. And so uh, we're at a bonfire because youth ministry play with fire, you gotta do that. Oklahoma, even more so. So we're at a bonfire hanging out. What can go wrong? Giving a bunch of these students sticks to throw in the fire, whatever. And so that's broad mix. We have middle school, high school all hanging out again. Horrible idea there. Uh, but we're all there hanging out, having a bonfire. And we have this one student who is like wild child of the youth group, you know, like that kid. And he's a high schooler, and he is uh taking like limbs from a tree trunk and ripping them off of the tree trunk, right? So, like get a picture where he's like trying to break things up so that he can throw it in the fire. Well, this kid is like grabbing this limb and he's just like wrenching this thing, like cranking it as far as he can to try to you know, try to break it. He's bracing himself and he's like giving it all he has. There's girls there he has to impress. So he's like trying to break this, right? Well, out of nowhere, he just like his whole persona changes. He starts screaming, flailing, saying every cuss word in the book passionately, like as loud as he can. We've got homeschoolers there. They're like, what does that mean? I've heard that word in my life. And he's just like rolling around, and I'm like, my God, what is happening right now? So I run up and the dude's. Kneecap, uh, I don't know what happened, to be honest with you, because I'm not a doctor. Uh, it completely twisted. So his kneecap was on the wrong side of his leg, okay? Oh my gosh. But however, you know, youth pastors doing stupid things. I'm like, well, I've seen a lot of videos on, you know, clearly uh his knee is out of socket. And as a great shepherd, I'm going to resolve this moment for this. Hey, chat GPT, I'll do the same thing. That's the model. Literally, dude. No, so I'm like, guys, back like so stupid. Like, I'm like, hey, back up. I got this. And people are like, what is Sam doing? I grab his leg, I'm like, hey, hold still. Uh no, no. Hold still, bro. I got you. I I take his foot and I yank his leg to try to bring it back into socket. It his leg does nothing when I yank it. It feels like a loaded spring. And it's just like and it and the feeling in me was so gross that I literally was like, ugh, like I let go and made that noise. And I was like, hey, we gotta go to the ER. And everybody's like, yeah, you should have done that in the first place. So anyway, we take the kid, load him to the ER, get him into triage. He's sitting, you know, he's just like dripping sweat, panicking, his knees like hanging out.

Caleb Leake 23:16

Oh man.

Sam McCollough 23:17

And out of nowhere, though, his knee literally just goes like and right back into place. And he just like wiggles it and he's like, I'm good, I'm good. Can we go? Can we go back? And I'm like, no, no, you can't go back. Uh so moral of the story, youth pastor, be a youth pastor, not an ER tech, not a paramedic. Let's go. Didn't get sued, thankfully. Uh, but that was that was what happened. Wow.

Eran Holt 23:38

All I all I'm envisioning, Sam, is like this kid is trying to rip a branch off a tree, and then you're like, I can do that too, but I'll do it with your leg instead.

Sam McCollough 23:48

Yeah, yeah, 100%. He was like, I don't know what got into me thinking I might be able to like pull it back into the socket. Yeah. Yeah, like, come on.

Eran Holt 23:58

Let's I saw someone do this when they stubbed their finger. I'm sure it works the same way.

Sam McCollough 24:02

We've seen it in every movie, right? And don't tell me that neither of you haven't wanted to try that.

Caleb Leake 24:08

Come on. I mean, that's that's like the classic question of like every guy, like, could you land a plane if the pilot died? And most guys are like, yeah, I probably could land a plane. 100%. It's like it's I could probably put a knee back in the past.

Eran Holt 24:22

I've watched Top Gun so many times. I feel like I got it.

Sam McCollough 24:25

You are Maverick.

Eran Holt 24:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam McCollough 24:28

Yeah, no, but but I went, like, you know, how cool would the story have been if it was like, hey, it's back, we're just gonna go to the doctor to check it out.

Eran Holt 24:35

It kind of is like, I mean, you fixed it because the doctor, apparently, the doctor didn't do anything. So I'm gonna say, Sam, whatever you did at the bonfire, it just took time for it to go into it. It was just delayed. It was a delayed healing.

Sam McCollough 24:48

Yeah, yeah. He had to get his leg amputated six months later.

Eran Holt 24:55

So fast. Can you imagine?

Sam McCollough 24:58

All right, let's check some vitals.

Eran Holt 24:59

Okay. Speaking of vitals. Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Wow. This is amazing. This is amazing. It's so good. Um, this is why we love how to say I'm on the podcast, right? Seriously. That's great. That's legendary. So um, okay, so we Sam,

Sponsor Breaks

Eran Holt 25:18

we invited you on because we wanted to talk with you about some of the recent data that you, under your leadership, One Hope and Feed.bible have produced on Gen Alpha. I think you guys, for several years now, have been um kind of the leading authorities on what's been happening with Gen Z and with Gen Alpha. You're one of the few organizations that, at least that I'm aware of, that's actually begun to produce really helpful data on Gen Alpha. You know, usually what ends up happening to us in the youth mystery world uh is like we get like halfway through a generation before there's any data about the generation that we're ministering to. And so I'm so grateful for feed.bible for one hope, for what you guys do. Um, and again, I think you're at the forefront across the world globally speaking when it comes to here's what's happening. You even got a mug, bro. Oh, that's right. Look at the feed Yeti.

Caleb Leake 26:07

Let's go.

Eran Holt 26:07

Dude, look at that, Sam. No, William. Come on, baby. I because I've been to your round table and this was one of your giveaways. And so, okay, awesome. I did I totally I drink out of this mug every morning, Sam. I just totally forgot it was from you guys. Um beautiful, but uh, so I'm I'm grateful. Just speaking on behalf of like youth ministries out there, youth pastors out there. You guys are helping us so much. Um, and and again, I think you're one of the first ones to start putting out some stuff on Zen Alpha, um, which is really high quality stuff. So there's a ton of data that you guys have. We're not gonna be able to get through all of it in this conversation. Um, for those of you that are interested in getting uh a free copy of the report, Sam, real quick, what website do they go to? Because I know that this is available to them.

Sam McCollough 26:49

Yeah, first of all, thanks for all the kind words. And you can go to feed.bible uh just go to our research tab and you'll be able to get that and a whole lot more. Yeah.

Eran Holt 26:56

There's a bunch of stuff there. And then if you want to converse live with this, then come to Lead the Generation conference later this year, April 25th. Uh, one hope and feed um will be there, and they're gonna do a full presentation of all this data during one of our sessions. And so it's it's gonna be an incredible session. So if you're interested in our conference, go to leadthegeneration.com. You can check that out. Um, I think when this podcast drops, we're still at our earliest price point, and so you can kind of lock that in and still save some money on that. So uh, Sam, let me just kick it to you. And you just kind of set this up again. We're not gonna go through all the data, but but a couple sections of it. Um, go ahead and jump in and just start giving us some of this information that's gonna help us and sharpen us.

Sam McCollough 27:36

Yeah, absolutely. Well, hey, really quick. So uh man, I was a youth pastor for about a decade, and you know, on the opposite end of being a youth pastor, I love to serve youth pastors and next gym leaders. And so I know as youth pastors, you can kind of feel like you're out on an island by yourself sometimes. And so it's important to have people in your corner. And we share research. My my whole kind of kind of thinking is hey, let's help you get like increase your altitude, right? As a youth pastor, you're in the trenches all the time, uh, you're in the middle of even that turbulence of youth ministry. And in these conversations, it's like, hey, let's let's increase the altitude a bit, let's see what's going on nationally, and then we can localize this to what's going on in our world. So when we think of Gen Alpha, just to set the tone a little bit for us, we're talking about uh young people that are 2010 to 2024. That's that age age there, right? 2010, 2024. So personally, uh, I'm raising two Gen Alpha kids in my own home, my wife and I, and we love it. Uh, they're the most relationally and ethnically diverse generation there's ever been. Uh, they're raised by digital natives, which is really important for us to recognize. So they're not just, you know, adapting to this digital world, they're literally raised by digital natives and they're growing up in the age of AI. And so I want to I want to hang there for a second and maybe we can even talk about this a little bit because this is really important for us. Like specifically,

Gen Alpha Overview And Context

Sam McCollough 29:00

Aaron and I, I'll I'll just say this when we think AI, and maybe you're just a saint, um, I think of still, I'm either thinking about the Terminator 2 metal skeleton crushing a human skull, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Eran Holt 29:13

That's where my head goes.

Sam McCollough 29:14

Yes, that's where it goes. Like, I think Skynet, you know, they're taking over and they become self-aware. Uh like if my phone ever picks up, like me saying, Hey, Sally, whatever, and it's Siri's like, what's up? I'm like, stay away.

Eran Holt 29:26

Do you even know what Skynet is, Katie?

Caleb Leake 29:28

Something really crazy. I've never watched Terminator. And I need to I recognize that that is because I've seen other classics that are before my time, like The Matrix, but like I've never seen Terminator. Okay. That's a first watch.

Eran Holt 29:41

Our tech director is Gen Z Blaise. Blaise had, do you know Skynet? Do you know Terminator? Do you know what we're talking about?

Blaise White 29:47

I do, I do not.

Eran Holt 29:48

I knew it. I knew it. So so Sam, this is just me right now. Yeah, yeah.

Sam McCollough 29:54

So, but as an example though, like this actually, what I what all just transpired there is super important for us to recognize, even in our like diversity of generations that are leading in youth ministry, because there's a man, like when you think about parents that are leading Gen Alpha, when you think about like I have this picture of my daughter who had a tablet in one arm and then had her arm around our echo dot, like for whatever reason, I don't know why. But it gave me this perfect picture of like there there isn't this like trust that's needing to be built up uh with AI necessarily. I mean, there's don't get me wrong, like I don't want to speak for a whole generation here, but it's just very different. And so when we think digital natives, when we say growing up in the age of AI, they're not adapting to it, they're born into it. That alone is a is like a significant paradigm shift needed, especially if you're like a a younger or older millennial that's leading in youth ministry. Like we just have to understand that that's the precedent that's set right now with with with gen alpha. Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb Leake 31:00

Yeah. So yeah, well, how how how does that change things specifically for the way that they begin to process and look at the world then? Because um, I mean, I already feel like how my parents,

What Makes An Emerging Committed Christian

Caleb Leake 31:10

when I when they like have a phone and they're like, How do you get to the settings? And I'm like, dude, come on. Like, and I understand this like intuitively. I feel like that's how AI is now, where they will understand or talk about the way they use AI. And I'm like, I didn't even know you could do that. And I'm like, I'm that old person now, and that happens so quick, I'm not even 30. It's like how so how how is that shifting the way that they see the world and also the way we need to begin to minister through to them? Like, should AI be a significant part of our ministry strategy because of that? I don't know. I'm I I have so many thoughts here. Tell me what you're thinking, Sam.

Sam McCollough 31:45

Yeah, no, that's good. And I I'm not gonna even claim to be an expert on that, but I would just say, as I observe, hey, it's important that we learn to adapt. Like we have to adapt constantly. So, you know, whatever one generation had to adapt to cassette players, and they called that, you know, oh, that's you know, having a uh like an online sermon or having like a sermon on the radio was evil, right? Like at some point, somebody was like, that's evil. Okay, like we have to learn to adapt. Like, I think knowing who we are in Christ, I don't want to go like too theological here, but like knowing who we are in Christ and as image bearers is like so important in this era, right? Like we have to know that, we have to teach that to our students. One thing I would say as as technology continues to advance, it's never gonna stop. Um, I would just say the importance of leaders like just being who they are and being okay with that is never gonna go away. Yeah, like authenticity, being what God's designed you to be, not pretending you're something you're not. Like, that's okay. That's good. You know, like I'm I'm 38 years old, I'm a dad of two, and I'm honestly becoming more and more just okay with that. Where I'm like, I don't, I don't need to try to be something that I'm not. Like, I'm it's actually I'm learning to go just like, yeah, just embrace like I'm creeping up on 40, and that's okay.

Eran Holt 32:58

Absolutely. So good. All right. So so give us some more of the data that kind of backs up what you're saying here as far as this generation being

The 65% Christian Claim And The 16% Core

Eran Holt 33:05

born into a world of digital, a world of AI.

Sam McCollough 33:08

Yeah, yeah. Well, so we can get into that. Um, so let's talk about do you want to jump into kind of like getting into their tech use? Because I wanted to hang out on where they're at from a spiritual perspective, because that really at the end of the day for us is like we got to know where our. Yeah, that's that's great.

Eran Holt 33:23

Let's do that.

Sam McCollough 33:23

Okay, so so here's what we wanted to do. Like, we wanted to find out Gen Alpha and religion, how are they doing? What's going on? You know, we had a lot of data on Gen Z. So when we look at Gen Alpha, we see that 65% of them identify as Christian. Okay, so well over half identifying as Christian. So, in one sense, man, we can celebrate that. Like, that's a win. Um, 28% non-religious, so almost 30% are saying we're non-religious here, and then 7% other religions. Now, anytime we hear, okay, 65% are identifying as Christian, we all know like cultural Christianity is a thing. We wanted to be able to go, okay. So, what is like an what is a committed Christian look like? Yeah. Okay, like what is a a Christian that we can go like? They're really living out their faith. And so at One Hope, we've come up with like a bit of a like construct that's going, what is an emerging committed Christian? In former reports, we used the language committed Christian, but something that was really important for us is we looked at these gen alphas since they were so young and we recognized how significant parent influence was on their lives. We wanted to go, okay, what is an emerging committed Christian look like? Like, hey, they're maybe they're growing up in a committed Christian home and they're starting to show attributes of if this young person continues on this trajectory, like they're going to be a committed follower of Christ. Gotcha. So, so what does it mean to be committed or to be emerging committed? Well, first, it's it's they believe God exists and they can have a personal relationship with them. So they believe God exists, they can have a personal relationship with them. They pray at least weekly, they read scripture on their own, at least weekly. They believe Jesus is the Son of God. They believe that forgiveness of sins is only possible through faith in Jesus Christ, and they believe the Bible is the word of God. Now, as we get into this,

Closing The Gap From Nominal To Committed

Sam McCollough 35:15

those are going to be really important because there's something that I want to walk into that is like, in my opinion, something that youth pastors and youth leaders, the church in general really needs to pay attention to. But before we keep going, any thoughts on any of those? Yeah.

Caleb Leake 35:30

So those, okay, you said how what's the percentage of gen alpha that are committed Christians, right? Because it's not just cultural, like I'm wearing the cross necklace and I go to church on Christmas and Easter. Like, what's what was the percentage for that again?

Sam McCollough 35:42

Of commitment. So we have so right now we have 65% that are Christian. They're just saying they're Christian.

Caleb Leake 35:49

They're just saying they're Christian. Okay. Yeah.

Sam McCollough 35:52

And so we'll kind of lock into this like committedness because you asked a great question. So, how many of them are emerging committed? Okay, 25% of the preteens that were surveyed that were Christians are committed. So, out of that 65%, 25%, whenever you stacked that emerging committed framework on top of that number, 25% squeak through. So if we look at the overall of Gen Alpha that we surveyed, you're looking at 16% of Gen Alpha are what we'd say are committed Christians. Yeah.

Caleb Leake 36:29

Wow. This this really gives what I love about this stuff is it gives a great framework of the mission for youth pastors. And honestly, why we need youth pastors who are sticking in the game and staying with it. Um, because we have a massive population of people who truly do want to, I think, like they're they're the soil is right for them to follow Jesus and that they already believe the core tenets, it's just

Encouraging Signs Of A Quiet Revival

Caleb Leake 36:50

they're not at the place where they're truly following Jesus with everything they have.

Eran Holt 36:53

So, Sam, let me make sure I'm understanding the data. So, so if I'm I'm youth pastoring today, I got 65% of Gen Alpha across the board now that have what they claim to be Christians. We could also say they have a high level of openness to Christianity. Right. I I only have sixteen percent that are really living it out according to that framework of emerging and committed, which says to me we have a massive discipleship challenge ahead of us, right? Right, because I want to move more into that 16% you know framework. Right, right. Um, and it also says we have a huge evangelistic opportunity as well. Is that is that how you guys are interpreting the data?

Sam McCollough 37:29

That's so good. Yeah, and that's something that we've leaned in on is man, can you imagine? So, like just to cast a little vision, imagine what your your church, imagine what your schools, imagine what your city would look like if we moved and closed that gap from nominalism to committedness. Like what would that look like? How would that change the face of your church, your schools, your city, your state, the country? Just to cast some vision, it would be a game changer. So yeah, 100% correct.

Caleb Leake 37:57

And I have I have another question on top of that. Like, do you can we compare what Gen Z was like compared to Gen Alpha in that way? Like, how much of Gen Z was committed in their faith compared to Gen Alpha? Is it a generation that's less committed as a Christian and less Christian overall, or are they more Christian? Do you know that?

Sam McCollough 38:17

Yeah, it's hard to like I've gotten in trouble for like comparing the data like that. Got it. Um, but it's hard to say. But we here's one thing that's really encouraging. Like, even the reports that are coming out from Europe, uh uh young, like young people, Gen Zers are more interested in the faith than they've ever been. Like they're more interested in Jesus than they've ever been. It's called the quiet revival. Like, we are seeing revival happening in young people. I mean, the the data is coming out on Gen Z that they are the most engaged in church than any other generation right now. So, like, that is a huge win. Um, we've we've taken time even in our community, Aaron, like to stop and go uh with our roundtable community, like let's celebrate a little bit here. Like we're seeing some real wins happen uh in the church. We're seeing wins happen in our younger generations when it comes to engagement in church.

Eran Holt 39:07

Yeah. Did you do you um, Sam? Can you provide like any uh I don't even know what to call it, like any evidence or any data or or just even if it's anecdotal, you know, on your part, like why? Why did that happen with Gen Z? What can we point to anything? Can we point to youth ministries? Can we point to church? Do we point to the disruption of COVID and how God is using that? Like, right, you know, even if you don't have any data, just what are your personal thoughts as you're kind of reading the landscape of what's happening with Gen Z?

Sam McCollough 39:36

Yeah, so I don't have I don't have the data, I have a theory. Um a lot of my young adults friends have been like, yes. Um, so I haven't published a substack yet here, but I really do think that we're seeing here's one thing that's really encouraging. Like, even the reports that are coming out from Europe, young people, Gen Z are more interested in the faith than they've ever been. Like they're more interested in Jesus than they've ever been. It's called the quiet revival. Like, we are seeing revival happening in young people. I mean, the data's coming out on Gen Z that they are the most engaged in church than any other generation right now. So that is a huge win.

Caleb Leake 40:19

Well, hey everyone, welcome to Vitals for Youth Ministry podcast, a resource by Lead the Generation. And if you haven't already checked out Vitals for Youth Ministry, it's a completely free resource, so make sure to check that out. But my name is Caleb, I'm your host. I got with me Aaron, he's the founder of Vitals for Youth Ministry and Lead the Generation, and uh my faithful co-host. Let's go, bro. Start of season two, bro.

Eran Holt 40:42

Season two. Season two.

Caleb Leake 40:44

And also, it's I mean, it's a day, it's a good day because this I mean, at the time of recording, Steelers are in the playoffs. We're a little nervous. I you know, I I'm full of delusional hope. Of course.

Eran Holt 40:54

Of why not? Of course we should be, because it's a home game and it's a Monday night, and we haven't lost on a Monday night in forever, but it also does kind of set us up for like Yeah.

Caleb Leake 41:02

For a huge disappointment. Yeah. I mean, it would be since 1991. We haven't lost a home Monday night football game.

Eran Holt 41:10

But we also haven't won a playoff game since which stat do you lean into?

Caleb Leake 41:15

Yeah, right. I guess we'll find out.

Eran Holt 41:17

Because right now we're leaning to the hopeful stats, and we chose to record before the game rather than after the game.

Caleb Leake 41:23

Because we knew we'd be really sad and disappointed after the game. Potentially. Potentially. Potentially. Yeah, I guess, or we'll be at least.

Eran Holt 41:28

Or we'd be so hyped that we wouldn't be able to even talk, you know, that's right in a sensible way.

Caleb Leake 41:32

So if we lose tonight, again, we don't know that. And also we could be winning the Super Bowl by the next time we record another podcast. So you, my friend, are so full of hope. So I see the pathway. Aaron Rodgers can't.

Eran Holt 41:46

Okay, so you know, a week ago around midnight, when that that infamous field goal miss happened, the best moment put us into the playoffs. I quote directly from the group chat Fantasy Football League at our church, of which both of us are a part. Yep. Where you, my friends, said, I am literally crying right now.

Caleb Leake 42:08

I also know that group chat at halftime was like, I'm turning the game off. So that's true. You get a whole actually, that group chat really is like a time capsule of what that was.

Eran Holt 42:16

You showed the full spectrum of youth past your emotion right there. The five stages of going home to the this is the best day of my life.

Caleb Leake 42:25

Yeah, it was amazing. Well, uh, we'll see what happens. But uh, man, we're excited about this podcast. Again, this is the start of season two. Yeah. Um, we have a guest coming on in a little bit, uh, Sam McCullough. We're in a conversation with him today.

Eran Holt 42:37

Yeah, Sam's an incredible leader. Um, he is the director of Next Gen Ministry. Um, I don't know if that's his actual title, but he's with One Hope and Feed.bible. Shout out to One Hope, the incredible organization. Um, and Feed.bible is um part of their focus of resourcing and equipping next gen leaders. Um, if you've never uh seen any of their resources, if you've never been on their website, it'll be in the show notes. You should go there. A lot of really high quality stuff that's also free. And I think One Hope is on the leading edge of data and understanding generations. And they're to my knowledge, they're one of the very first to be um producing data already about gen alpha. Usually, as youth pastors, we have to wait, like we have to get like six years into a generation before someone's even saying, here's what this generation is all about.

Caleb Leake 43:23

Right.

Eran Holt 43:24

And they're just way ahead of the game. And and so that our conversation with Sam is gonna be rich. You're gonna love it.

Caleb Leake 43:28

Yeah, make sure to stay tuned for that conversation. Before we get into that, uh in this season two, we we decided we wanted to introduce a new segment. We're like, we're gonna call Vitals Check. Uh you know, me and Aaron, yeah, like a little like vitals. That was good, Aaron. Yeah, I really like that.

Eran Holt 43:44

My Apple Watch does it when I when I do my heart.

Caleb Leake 43:46

Does a vitals check for you?

Eran Holt 43:47

Well, my heart check.

Caleb Leake 43:48

He tells me sometimes it is like, hey, you're dying and you need to breathe or stand up.

Eran Holt 43:52

That's what it that's what it was saying to you after that after that game last week. That's right.

Caleb Leake 43:57

So imagine this is like the youth ministry. Apple Watch. All right. We're doing a vitals check to see how you're don't look for the app. It doesn't really exist. No, it doesn't. That would be cool. It would be.

Eran Holt 44:08

But me and Aaron have lots of conversations with youth pastors. Real-time feedback as you're preaching, your watch just starts to tell you like it's like you forgot what you were supposed to say there. You're doing great right now. No, this is bad. This is really bad.

Caleb Leake 44:19

It's time to move on. They're not with you. But yeah, me and me and Aaron have lots of conversations with different youth pastors. Obviously, I'm a youth pastor in my fifth year of youth ministry now. Um, and so that as you're you know, talking with lots of people, conversing, whether it's in cohorts or coaching conversations or conversations that have come from the podcast, we often hear the tension points, the struggles, the situations or problems that youth pastors find them in. And so we thought uh Vitals Check is a great chance for us to talk about, maybe even diagnose what's going on inside of your youth ministry. And so if you have a specific question that you want us to talk about, you can uh submit that on our Instagram or even just reach out to me and Aaron directly. Yeah. Um, but one that's a hot button topic right now is AI specifically. Um, and can I tell you, me and Aaron talk about AI probably every time we see each other because Aaron is like, bro, you'll never guess what Chat GPT helped me do recently. I just replaced my HVAC system by myself.

Eran Holt 45:24

Something like that. Not the HVAC, but right, but it's something a lot of other things.

Caleb Leake 45:27

Right. It's like always a new home project. I'm sure your year in review for ChatGPT was like, you have learned how to do that. Did you watch yours?

Eran Holt 45:34

Absolutely. Yeah, I watched mine. I it was so funny.

Caleb Leake 45:37

Yeah, it's great. Mine actually said I was a youth pastor CEO, is what I said. Mine was like, thank you. Uh, but there's a lot of people on different sides. Some people think that AI is horrible, we shouldn't be using it. Other people are like, this is something that we need to get uh into. And so and so here's a question that I think a lot of people were wrestling with, and something we had someone said, I've started to uh using AI to help write messages, smaller questions, and even volunteer training outlines. Uh, but I'm starting to feel weird about it. Where's the line between using a tool and outsourcing my pastoral responsibility? Yeah. So let's let's dialogue about this. Okay. Um, I know Aaron, you have a lot of thoughts already. And again, you're probably hearing this from a lot of other youth pastors as well, since you're still in the youth ministry world.

Eran Holt 46:20

Yeah. So my first thought would be um I would just I'd say zoom out from AI for just a moment and let's remember that church and church leadership has always struggled with technology and with advancement of technology in relation to culture and to leadership. So in that way, this is not necessarily a new struggle for us. So um church leaders struggled when the printing press came around because up until that point, um, only the priest or only the pastors, you know, actually had a copy of God's word. And so the people just completely trusted them, you know.

Caleb Leake 46:59

Right.

Eran Holt 46:59

Um, so that was a struggle. Like, what do we do? Do we embrace the printing press? How do I mean think about how ironic this sounds now? They were wrestling with this question. Is it a really is it really a good idea for people to have their own copy of the Bible? Yeah. I mean, just think about that. Right. Now we were like, what? Like, how how is that even? Almost feel heretical to say otherwise. Yes. So the church has always had this issue of whatever it is. I mean, the whatever the technology is. So it's like we had that issue with the printing press. Church leaders had issues with sound systems and microphones whenever they were first being um produced, because the the thought was among some um, can your voice really continue to be anointed by the Holy Spirit if it's going through a digital process?

Caleb Leake 47:40

Wow. Right?

Eran Holt 47:42

Isn't that wild?

Caleb Leake 47:42

Well, that also is reminiscent of what we're hearing now, too. Yeah.

Eran Holt 47:46

Right. So, I mean, you could just pick and choose all the way through, all the all the way up through, you know, buildings and you know, air air conditioned rooms and padded seats and um the music wars of church and what instruments are anointed, which ones are not, you know. I mean, just on and on and on it goes, right? And so even in the early days of the internet, we had this same, you know, this same struggle. So the struggle is not new. So in that regard, I would just say like everyone take a deep breath.

Caleb Leake 48:12

Right.

Eran Holt 48:12

And remember, we've been here before. The topic is different, obviously, with AI, but the issue is still the same.

Caleb Leake 48:18

So for then let's okay, because a lot of it, I think a lot of the main tension comes to um, am I gonna am I going to outsource again my pastoral voice, me hearing from the Holy Spirit, and AI is just writing my messages. Um, is that even trustworthy? Is that anointed the way it is? Like, what about that tension where people are feeling like, am I am I potentially relying on something and replacing the voice of the Holy Spirit? Because I have something that can give me an answer to any question I'm gonna have. And it's pretty effective, too.

Eran Holt 48:52

Yeah. So, I mean, decades ago, pastors wrestled with the question, how much should I lean on a commentary for writing a sermon? How much should I lean on a book of sermons by Charles Spurgeon or A.W. Tozer? You know what I mean? So, so I the only reason I say that is because I just don't want our generation to think we have a brand new challenge with AI that no one has ever had before. So this is all new. No, every generation has had this challenge, it's just been different for them, and every generation has therefore had to learn how do I, in a healthy way, leverage and use the tools that are available to me in my moment in history, in my era of history, in my generation, how do I leverage and use those tools in a healthy way? Right. So the the person who submitted this question, um, I mean, they're already asking it in a healthy way. Either saying, How do I know like necessarily what the line is? Like, how do I use this tool? When do I know like I've crossed the line, right? Um, and I and I would say that we can probably talk through like, here's a couple, you know, principles that are probably good across the board.

Caleb Leake 49:57

They're clear and obvious black and white. It's probably clear you shouldn't cross. Yeah.

Eran Holt 50:01

Right. And then and then and then at the same time, there's this is a very nuanced conversation too, where there's going to be people that take different views or different slants on, you know, certain things. Right. You know, so on and so on.

Caleb Leake 50:11

Yeah, here would be my opinion. I would say revelation has to come from the Holy Spirit. Revelation has to come from the Word of God, right?

Eran Holt 50:20

Right.

Caleb Leake 50:20

And that I I if if AI is writing my message for me or writing everything for me, I think we actually can can remove the Holy Spirit speaking into our lives and potentially lose that muscle of learning to wrestle through what exactly is the Holy Spirit speaking to me. However, I think if it's a refiner, so if it's not the revelation, but it's the refiner, where it's like, here is here is what I feel like my main point is supposed to be, but I I feel like it's not quite there in the wording or I'm not quite able to communicate, and you can put it in and then it starts to give you different ideas. To me, I feel like there's no I have no problem with it refining and sharpening. It just can't be the revelation, it can't be the initial idea of what we're working with.

Eran Holt 51:03

Yeah, I like your boundary there. I think that's wise. I think that boundary not only applies to AI, but it applies to how you use Google. Absolutely so research for a sermon, how you use logos Bible software to reach for a sermon. Like I have a I have a pretty good sized library with logos, and I mean it's that's pretty easy to just and logos has built I AI built into it now as well. Right. So um it's like that those resources come really quickly and really easily, right? Versus like I remember my dad's generation, my dad's a retired pastor, but my dad's generation, like if he had an office this size, you know, this like the studio, it would be like just the just you know, ceiling to floor books, right? Right, and then a wall full of filing cabinets with every single sermon illustration or magazine article and newspaper clipping, you know, like categorized in different files, and so they he had to do like that hard work of wrestling, but he was still utilizing resources that others had produced in the same way that you and I are utilizing those same resources, we're just doing it digitally, right? Whether it's I use Google, I use logos, or now I used AI, right? And because of the nature of AI, it gave me a much more condensed, very quick, easy version of how to study it or how to, you know. And that's the attraction to it. It's like you could spend hours Googling, and in the same time, AI can do all that for you in a minute and give you a lot a lot of information. And and that feels kind of cheap.

Caleb Leake 52:36

Right. I maybe this is a hot take. I would say if you're using Google search, if you're using logos, if you are using uh if you're in your Bible app, you type in peace and you find a verse about peace, but you're very anti-AI, it feels a little hypocritical to you. Yeah, I I I'd agree. Because it's like you're you're doing it, it's actually the same thing. It's just again, it's speeding the process. And I would say, because I think a lot of people were like, again, the Holy Spirit's not an AI and it's it's using something different. Does the power of scripture change if AI says it? If if AI confesses Jesus' Lord and says that, is does the do the power comes does the power come from me? Are you speaking it, or does the power come from the words itself? Yeah.

Eran Holt 53:19

I've used it like so I I've actually um this past summer for um you know, traveling and speaking at camps and stuff like that, my sermons were already all written but without using AI. Um and um but then I took them and I ran them through AI.

Caleb Leake 53:37

Yeah.

Eran Holt 53:37

And I would just give it basic prompts like um are there any gaps? Where does this not flow?

Caleb Leake 53:44

Pressure tested.

Eran Holt 53:45

Yeah. Uh um, are you missing any depth of information from scriptures here? You know what I mean? Just some of it was out of curiosity because I I wanted to kind of see like how does this tool actually work?

Speaker 38 53:55

Right.

Eran Holt 53:55

Right. And some of it was out of just a desire for, hey, if I can make this sermon better, right, and I or or if there's deeper biblical truth here that I'm missing because I just didn't, you know, have the right resources or the right Google search or the right book in my library and logos to unpack this particular thing. Like, okay, great. Like I I'll use this as a tool in that way. Right.

Caleb Leake 54:17

It's a refiner. You're refining things from that. So obviously, again, there's discernment here. People can can use AI for negative always. Any technology people can use it.

Eran Holt 54:27

In the same way you can use music for for negative, podcast for negative, the internet for negative, social media for I mean, all of it, everything we've talked about, sound systems and microphones, right? Like, and so that would that's always been the church's uh fear factor. Right. Is this thing gonna be bad? Right. Well, it could be it could be if leaders don't harness it and use it well in a in a healthy way, right? Right. So I think AI falls into that same category. Is it probably the most powerful tool? Much more powerful than yes, without a doubt. And I think that's what has a lot of us scared because it's like whoa, it just right it did that, right?

Caleb Leake 55:08

Like I just And we're not getting into the idea of creative integrity, how does that play into the space of you know, graphic design, music, creation, like that kind of stuff? And I don't think we even need to touch that because I think that's a whole other conversation. But as far as using it a tool to enhance what your youth ministry is doing, as long as it's being stewarded in the right way, I feel like there's no problem. But we'd love to hear from you guys too. If you feel like you have a thought or you have something you'd like to share, or you'd want to toss your hat in the ring, let us know. Um, because this isn't gonna be an extended conversation because it's here to stay, and uh we'll probably be talking about this, you know, for the next 15, 20 years because it's just gonna continue to evolve.

Eran Holt 55:47

Yeah, I would tell you don't miss out on the tool because you you're afraid. Right. And um give yourself some healthy boundaries. Right. You know, you know, I mean, um sit down, have the conversation, wrestle through it, talk to your pastor about it, talk to your your leaders about it, see where the tension points are at. Um your kids are using it. Yeah, your students are using it. Absolutely. So in the same way that as I was kind of, I mean, I I finished youth pastoring, you know, about 10 years ago, but um that was like when social media was really like on the, you know, like you know, Facebook was already kind of going down, Instagram was kind of flying up, you know, and snap and all that kind of stuff. It was at the early stages of all of that. And you can run away from that and stick your head in the sand and and think that you're modeling something for your students. You're really not. Right. You're just all you're modeling is you have fear, right, and you don't know how to handle this. So as leaders, especially spiritual leaders, our responsibility, our mantle as a shepherd is to at least learn it enough that we determine whether or not we want to use it as a tool, but maybe more importantly, modeling well and in a healthy way how we think students should use it in relation to their life, their studies, their education, their growth as a follower of Christ, their understanding of the word of God, all of that. If if you just act like it's not there, well, it is. It's not, it's not like to your point, it's not going away. Yeah, and students are using it and they're not gonna stop using it.

Caleb Leake 57:16

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is something we actually talked more about in our conversation with Sam McCullough that we're gonna be getting to now. And so we're excited about that. Make sure to stay tuned. We'll be right back after the break. Today's episode is sponsored by Allison Park Leadership Academy. This is a ministry school based out of Pittsburgh PA, and it's one focused year of practical hands-on ministry training as well as solid biblical teaching. APLA is passionate about training you, equipping you, and sending you out into what God has called you to. And really that's the main mission is to help you step into what God has made you for. And so, for more information or even to apply today, you can head to Allison Park LeadershipAcademy.com.

Eran Holt 57:57

Hey, today's episode is brought to you by WorldServe International. If you're not familiar with WorldServe, absolutely incredible organization that has helped bring clean drinking water to over seven million people in sub-Saharan Africa. Uh, even beyond clean drinking water, WorldServe empowers women by providing biodegradable sanitary pads to adolescent girls, helping them stay in school, helping them continue to pursue their education. WorldServe also supports food security by helping communities learn how to grow their own food through drip irrigation, resulting in hundreds of thousands of pounds of food distributed each year. One simple way to get involved is through the well. We're gonna put a link in the show notes. Go check it out. Supporters uh sign up to support WorldServe through $20 a month. That's really, really simple, but you're making a huge difference providing clean drinking water uh all over Africa. So, WorldSurf, thank you. Thanks for being a sponsor today for the podcast. Sam, so good to have you on the podcast today. Always an honor to hang with you, talk with you. You sharpen us. Uh, you're not a stranger to the Lead the Gen fam. And uh so thanks for joining us today, Sam.

Sam McCollough 59:12

Hey, what's up, guys? So honored to be here. Seriously, love both of you and excited to hang out today.

Caleb Leake 59:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Happy to have you, man. And uh we like to kick off every time we have a guest uh because we have a lot of youth pastors, youth uh people, people around youth ministry, um, because they tend to have a stupid youth story. I always say it's like a plague, uh a stupid plague that follows us, whether it's an intern or a youth student or us doing something that's a little bit moronic, uh, but it creates a great story.

Eran Holt 59:42

It's like youth ministry's own version of COVID. It's just it's just not near as dramatic.

Caleb Leake 59:48

Yeah, yeah. But no one can escape it. Okay. And it's a 100% success rate. Uh, and so, man, the floor is yours. We'd love to hear your your youth pastor, youth ministry story.

Sam McCollough 59:58

I love it. Yeah, doing stupid things is like a rite of passage for youth pastors. And so um, not that you know, we're stupid, it's just we happen to do stupid things.

Caleb Leake 1:00:07

And so it's good, that's good. It's not an identity thing. It's just not you're okay.

Eran Holt 1:00:12

Like we see you. You're not a bad person. You just did a bad thing.

Sam McCollough 1:00:15

Wow, you're not an idiot, you just do dumb things. It's okay, it's okay. We love you. Um, you know, actually, so so my story. Well, yeah, I actually did something really stupid in this story. Let me take it back. And so uh, we're at a bonfire because youth ministry, play with fire, you gotta do that. Oklahoma, even more so. So we're at a bonfire hanging out. What can go wrong? Giving a bunch of youth students sticks to go in the fire, whatever. And so it's broad mix. We have middle school, high school all hanging out again. Horrible idea there. Uh, but we're all there hanging out, having a bonfire. And we have this one student who's like wild child of the youth group, you know, like that kid. And he's a high schooler, and he is uh taking like limbs from a tree trunk and ripping them off of the tree trunk, right? So, like getting a picture where he's like trying to break things up so that he can throw it in the fire. Well, this kid is like grabbing this limb and he's just like wrenching this thing, like cranking it as far as he can to try to you know, try to break it. He's bracing himself and he's like giving it all he has. There's girls there he has to impress. So he's like trying to break this, right? Well, out of nowhere, he just like his whole persona changes. He starts screaming, flailing, saying every cuss word in the book passionately, like as loud as he can. We've got homeschoolers there. They're like, what does that mean? I've heard that word in my life, and he's just like rolling around, and I'm like, my God, what is happening right now? So I run up and the dude's kneecap, uh, I don't know what happened, to be honest with you, because I'm not a doctor. Uh, it completely twisted. So his kneecap was on the wrong side of his leg, okay? Oh my gosh. But however, you know, youth pastors doing stupid things. I'm like, well, I've seen a lot of videos on, you know, clearly uh his knee is out of socket. And as a great shepherd, I'm going to resolve this moment for this. Hey, Chat GPT, I'll do the same thing. That's the most literally, dude. No, so I'm like, guys, back like so stupid. Like, I'm like, hey, back up, I got this. And people are like, what is Sam doing? I grab his leg and I'm like, hey, hold still. Uh which is no hold still, bro. I got you. I I take his foot and I yank his leg to try to bring it back into socket. It his leg does nothing when I yank it. It feels like like a loaded spring, and it's just like and it and the feeling in me was so gross that I literally was like, uh, like I let go and made that noise. And I was like, hey, we gotta go to the ER. And everybody's like, yeah, you should have done that in the first place. So anyway, we take a kid, load him to the ER, get him into triage. He's sitting, you know, he's just like dripping sweat, panicking, his knees like hanging out.

Caleb Leake 1:03:06

Oh man.

Sam McCollough 1:03:06

And out of nowhere, though, his knee literally just goes like and right back into place. And he just like wiggles it and he's like, I'm good, I'm good. Can we go? Can we go back? And I'm like, no, no, you can't go back. Uh so moral of the story youth pastor, be a youth pastor, not an ER tech, not a paramedic. That's good. Didn't get sued, thankfully. Uh, but that was that was what happened. Wow. All I all I'm envisioning, Sam, is like,