00;00;01;10 - 00;00;07;09
Tim Srigley
This is the Bigger Than Me podcast with your host Aaron Pete.

00;00;07;20 - 00;00;32;28
Aaron Pete
Emotional intelligence is becoming a topic that's commonplace. My guest today is Carolyn Stern, the author of The Emotionally Strong Leader. As we have these complex conversations about how to strengthen our workplace, build resiliency, and look at more well-rounded leaders. I'm excited to sit down with Carolyn today to learn about emotional intelligence how to be an active in the workplace as we go into tough times in our economy.

00;00;32;29 - 00;00;36;26
Aaron Pete
I think it will be a valuable conversation. And I appreciate all of you for tuning in today.

00;00;40;00 - 00;00;46;18
Aaron Pete
Carolyn, it's a pleasure to sit down with you today. I'm going to ask if you could introduce yourself for listeners who might not have met you before.

00;00;46;27 - 00;01;08;10
Carolyn Stern
Yeah, so, hi, I'm I'm Carolyn Stern. I am an emotional intelligence expert and the CEO and president of E! I experienced, which is a leadership development and emotional intelligence training firm and super excited, brand new author of The Emotionally Strong Leader, which just got released in the fall of 20, 22.

00;01;08;25 - 00;01;28;02
Aaron Pete
I can't wait to dove into that. I'm wondering if we could perhaps start. You've talked briefly about how growing up your experiences were that you you felt things deeply, that you had a deep connection to things going on around you and it didn't always feel like you you were understood in that regard. I'm wondering if you could talk about how you got started in this.

00;01;28;22 - 00;01;52;07
Carolyn Stern
Well, my entire family said I was an emotional child and for many, many years I got a bad rap, right? I was held. People didn't tell me things. I was taken away from family discussions. But what I realized, you know, early well, later on in life, but early in life, my emotions ran havoc in my life. Right. Which caused a laundry list of undesirable consequences.

00;01;52;24 - 00;02;16;02
Carolyn Stern
But just because I'm an emotional person, Erin, doesn't mean that I am weak. The problem was I wasn't paying attention to and understanding what my feelings were trying to tell me that's what was ruining my world is that I wasn't paying attention to them. And I was letting my emotions run amok in my life. But in actuality, I still to this day, feel things very deeply.

00;02;16;02 - 00;02;37;16
Carolyn Stern
All that emotional means is that you feel things deeply and are passionate. But that doesn't mean I can't be smart about those feelings. So since the days of my childhood, I've really come to learn that emotions aren't the enemy, right? We can make friends with our feelings. I think that the problem is we've been hoodwinked all these years to believe that showing vulnerability was a sign of weakness.

00;02;37;24 - 00;02;45;14
Carolyn Stern
And really, in my opinion, showing vulnerability is speaking your truth and telling others how you really feel. Really, to me, that's your superpower.

00;02;46;11 - 00;03;02;29
Aaron Pete
Was it a journey at all to be so misunderstood for such a period? And at what point in time did you start to realize the perspectives of these individuals aren't something to be taken too seriously, that you're able to process this in a different way? What was having people misunderstand you like?

00;03;03;23 - 00;03;36;14
Carolyn Stern
Well, having been pushed to the sidelines and kind of feeling like as a child that I couldn't I didn't feel like I had the capability of making good decisions that really created a culture of reliance on my mother specifically. I have a very overprotective mother that coupled with my low self-regard and her kind of, you know, being that typical classical helicopter parent, really made my anxiety, my panic attacks, like take an all time high.

00;03;36;23 - 00;03;57;12
Carolyn Stern
And it was actually when I was a teacher, was a high school teacher teaching high school in my twenties that I had two really difficult students in my class. And on the first day of class, think about this, I'm in my mid-twenties and they got into a fistfight. These are a bunch of 17 year olds 11 boy, one girl.

00;03;57;12 - 00;04;17;10
Carolyn Stern
And I thought, how the hell am I going to get two students to learn from me, let alone listen to me? And what I decided to do is take those challenging teens and make them in the class. It was an entrepreneurship class, make them the VP's. So I made one of them, a VP of Human Resources and I made the other one, the VP of Production.

00;04;17;10 - 00;04;36;09
Carolyn Stern
And my colleagues, my teacher friends thought I was crazy because why are you giving the most challenging students the probably the most, you know, critical roles in the class? But I thought to myself, I wonder what it feels like. They might feel like I did as a kid, kind of been pushed to the sidelines not been given a chance.

00;04;36;09 - 00;04;56;05
Carolyn Stern
And I wanted to show them the potential that they could have. And let me tell you, it took work, right? Like working with these kids, they were challenging for a reason. Right. But I got to know them on a personal level. And it was there that I realized when you can make an emotional connection with someone you can change their world.

00;04;56;18 - 00;05;20;29
Carolyn Stern
And so in the end, one student, it was interesting as I was writing the book 20 years later or 20, 25 years later, I reached out to her. I couldn't find the one student, but I found the girl on Facebook and I reached out to her and I said, you know, I'd love to talk with you. And she told me a story, Aaron, that just put my mouth to the floor, which is she told me how much I had changed her life.

00;05;21;00 - 00;05;41;17
Carolyn Stern
I had known that she became like the most improved student in school. I could see those external results. But what I didn't know at the time, you know, 25 years earlier, is she was just getting out of foster care and she had actually tried to end her life and her she said, I was pushing you. I push people away.

00;05;41;18 - 00;06;02;14
Carolyn Stern
That's how I know that they love me. If they come back and freeze what she said when I and I, I quote her in the book, she said, When I pushed you, you pushed back. And then I knew that you weren't going anywhere. And then she felt safe. And like I said, what's happened to her life and her career since that story, her that experience changed my life as well.

00;06;02;14 - 00;06;23;14
Carolyn Stern
As her. So not only did she become the most improved student in the school, but she also so she went from fist fights to first in class. But she also had, you know, now has a thriving business and is, as you know, a great citizen in the world. So I feel really good about that. So it just made me realize that emotions are not the enemy.

00;06;23;22 - 00;06;37;18
Carolyn Stern
We just need to learn that we all have emotions, you included, and we feel things. And we're not just task completers we're actually human beings that have feelings. And if people can tap into those feelings, great things can happen.

00;06;38;12 - 00;06;45;18
Aaron Pete
I've heard this saying that when you're not seeing eye to eye, you should have a heart to heart. And it sounds like that's what happened there.

00;06;45;27 - 00;07;06;27
Carolyn Stern
Yeah, absolutely. And ever since that day, that's how I connect with every person I work with. So whether it's teaching at the university, because I now teach at a university for the last 25 years, whether it's teaching my clients or coaching my my clients, or it's even working with my staff, it's really learning to connect on a deeper level.

00;07;06;27 - 00;07;26;27
Carolyn Stern
That is what, you know, as we said, as you said, the heart to heart rate connecting at a heart level because you and I, even though our lives might look different on the outside. Bottom line is emotions are the universal language. That connects us all. So if I tell you, hey, when was the last time you were fearful, I bet you can think of a time when you felt fear.

00;07;26;27 - 00;07;49;15
Carolyn Stern
And I can relate to that because I also have felt fear. That's what binds us together. So I don't care what you look like on the outside or what your story is, your economic status, your background, your race, none of that. You know, we're talking about diversity. Equity and inclusion. Well, if we all started talking emotions, we'd actually all be able to relate better and make sure everyone feels included in those conversations.

00;07;50;04 - 00;08;05;17
Aaron Pete
Personally, And I'm really curious, though, where did this come about? It sounds like you went through a period of your life where you didn't know how to process this and you felt small. Was there a point in time where you when you know what, this isn't for me. I'm a capable person and I just need strategies. You went to school for this.

00;08;05;17 - 00;08;10;21
Aaron Pete
I'm just curious as to what that day was, where you were kind of like, this is my passion to share this with people.

00;08;10;25 - 00;08;29;05
Carolyn Stern
Yes. Well, like I said, in that class, I didn't know that that was called emotional intelligence connecting on that, like leading with emotional intelligence. I didn't know that. That's what it was called, that it was when I was doing my master's that I realized and they actually taught us about emotional intelligence. And I was like, oh, I can now put a name to it.

00;08;29;17 - 00;08;47;02
Carolyn Stern
And once it. From then on, it was like, I don't know if you've ever had those moments, Aaron, but it was like one of those moments that I was like, oh, my gosh, this is what this is what I was supposed to do for the rest of my life. And that has truly been my purpose. So as soon as I learned about IQ, I remember I hit a wall.

00;08;47;09 - 00;09;10;23
Carolyn Stern
I was working 18 hours a day. I had had gained £120. I had isolated myself into my house. I didn't even see my own family who lived in the same city as need for a year. I wouldn't go out. I'd walk my dog at three in the morning. I'd only go to the grocery store you know, late at night so no one could see me.

00;09;10;29 - 00;09;33;21
Carolyn Stern
I was very isolated and very ashamed as what I did to my physical body. And I was eating my emotions. And what what it made me realize is I had this epiphany that I don't know why I remembered back it thinking about, hey, I learned about emotional intelligence in my masters. Maybe I should take an IQ assessment. And that's what I did.

00;09;33;27 - 00;09;51;04
Carolyn Stern
And that assessment changed my life because it showed me what I was strong in, what I was weak in, and then I could do something about it. And it was a hard like to hard to see those results on paper, but I could then see that's what and those are the skills I'm lacking that's giving me the results that I have today.

00;09;51;11 - 00;10;12;15
Carolyn Stern
And that's what I try to do in the book. I basically get people to figure out where they are at emotionally what is your emotional makeup for good or for bad? It hurts and helps your leadership because who you are is how you lead. So if we can figure out who we are and in fact, I wrote I was writing a different book when I wrote this book, I actually had written a book all about leading teams.

00;10;12;15 - 00;10;27;28
Carolyn Stern
And I went, Wait, I'm writing the wrong book. I got a first lead from yourself. So this insight set our journey right. Figuring out who I am, what I'm all about is the way forward. And then once I know what my development opportunities are, then I can focus on what needs attention.

00;10;28;17 - 00;10;54;20
Aaron Pete
You talk about being willing to look in the mirror in that way and kind of reflect on the challenges. And it seems like that's often the hardest step for people is to actually look at themselves in the mirror and almost remove that sense of judgment and say, This is where I am today. And I think that that's a piece of mindfulness that kind of gets confused by people, which is you you look at yourself and say, it doesn't matter where I am today, what my socioeconomic status is, what I look like, where I am.

00;10;54;29 - 00;11;11;15
Aaron Pete
I have to love myself. For this starting place because wherever I go from here is up and I can take steps forward that improve my circumstance. So I have to love myself here and then we can look forward. And that's that sense of peace. And I'm just curious as to what that experience was like.

00;11;11;27 - 00;11;29;13
Carolyn Stern
Well, I think this is what I talk about in the book. You need to look at yourself like you're an observer of yourself, almost like you take yourself out of the equation, almost like you're a director in your own film, and you're like, Oh, Carolyn, that actress. I wonder, you know, what is her emotional makeup without judgment, without criticism, have compassion.

00;11;29;21 - 00;11;49;26
Carolyn Stern
The moment I started to realize why, because my lowest competency, no matter how many years I've been studying this and this has been over two decades, right? No matter how many times I take this test with my lowest emotional intelligence, confidence is independence. And people are always surprised by that because on the outside, I'm financially independent. I'm not married.

00;11;50;00 - 00;12;11;19
Carolyn Stern
I have my own business. I travel by most hope. But on the inside, I had and as you've already heard, I had it overprotective mother. And she was a classic helicopter parent, did everything for me you know, tried to make my life better. And the problem is now I question my judgments. I don't I need a lot of validation.

00;12;11;19 - 00;12;33;20
Carolyn Stern
So I hope by the end of this podcast, Aaron, you're going to say good job, but I need all of that, right? Because I don't feel I can give it to myself. In fact, my employees tell me I pay them to reassure me, which is probably true. What the challenge is now. Rather than blaming my mother for why I am the way I am, I could just go, Wow, now I understand why my independence is so low.

00;12;33;24 - 00;12;56;08
Carolyn Stern
And I call it in the book Emotional Muscles, just like you work out. You're supposedly we all have a six pack under here. I have yet to see it. I don't care. I've now lost £125. I still don't see it. But if I didn't work crunches, it would come out right once. The same thing with emotional muscles. I have independence muscles I just they're underutilized because I never had to work them.

00;12;56;17 - 00;13;12;23
Carolyn Stern
If you grew up in a family, but you were given the key and you had to make all these decisions, my guess is you probably be more independent than someone like me, who? Their mother did absolutely everything for them, including, by the way, she woke me up this morning at 5 a.m. to make sure I was up for this for my day.

00;13;13;08 - 00;13;36;00
Carolyn Stern
I kid you not like this is not this. This should be in a I should write a book on how to live with your helicopter model after in as I'm 52. But the bottom line is we all have different upbringings and that makes us who we are once we can stop blaming our situation. My doctor once said the people that are the happiest are the people that accept what is is so accept what is is this is your baseline.

00;13;36;02 - 00;13;56;07
Carolyn Stern
And as you said Erin we can only move up once we know better. We got to do better. So now that I know independence is my struggle. Now I need to do something to become more independent. So as much as I want you to say good job at the end of this, I encourage you not to because that will feed my my lack of dependent independence.

00;13;57;02 - 00;14;15;22
Aaron Pete
Yeah. It seems like oftentimes the deficits in our life, the areas in which we struggle the most are actually the areas that we grow the furthest and set us apart from other people. And give us this like you think about the fact that you started at this deficit and now you've got a book out about this whole topic in breaking it down.

00;14;15;22 - 00;14;20;00
Aaron Pete
And we couldn't have had that unless you did face this adversity and faced these challenges.

00;14;20;00 - 00;14;41;14
Carolyn Stern
Absolutely. And I think that's truly what leadership's about to me. What leadership's about is being willing to go first. You don't have to be the best. You just have to be willing to go first. And one of the things that that I encourage people to realize is and I call it the emotionally strong leader, this isn't about leading teams this is about leading yourself.

00;14;42;03 - 00;15;16;20
Carolyn Stern
So, you know, for someone who lacks independence, let's be honest, writing a book for the world to judge was a really scary proposition, right? Because now it's out there in the world and everyone can judge it. But guess what? I can be brave and afraid at the same time. And that's what I encourage people to do is if you know you're always going to stay in your comfort zone, if because it's comfortable, the only way you're going to learn and grow is if you push yourself That's my job as a trainer, as a coach, is to take you from your learning zone into your sorry and from your panic zone into your learning zone.

00;15;17;04 - 00;15;41;08
Carolyn Stern
But I don't want to push you to a point that it becomes panic. So it's going to be comfort, learning panic. So I, as a trainer or a leader, needs to push my employees or my students into from their comfort zone, into their learning zone. And the more they learn, the bigger their comfort zone becomes. But if I push them into panic and it becomes a negative situation, that's the challenge.

00;15;41;09 - 00;16;00;13
Carolyn Stern
Now, the problem is your comfort zone and your panic zone and your learning zone is different than mine. So I might give as the same assignment, the 35 students, one of them could go into complete panic from that assignment, and the rest of them could be fine. And the challenge is, is you've got to tap into your self.

00;16;00;13 - 00;16;14;10
Carolyn Stern
Figure out is am I pushing myself that I'm a little bit scared or am I literally throwing up in my mouth? And I like my I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack. That's probably panic. And you need to pay attention to those body sensations so that you don't go into panic.

00;16;15;07 - 00;16;48;21
Aaron Pete
One of the challenges I feel like so many people go through is they feel like learning complete when they're done high school or they're done their undergraduate degree. And there's this disconnect. And I feel like the perfect zone is being curious and remaining open because as you say, there's so much we don't know. And I think our surroundings often indicate that we do know things, you know, when the lights have been turned green, you know when you're going to be at work, you know some things, but you don't know all the types of grass that are in the lawn over there are the types of trees or the names of the birds or most things you

00;16;48;21 - 00;17;12;18
Aaron Pete
actually don't know. And then you can go, Oh, we're a rock hurtling through space. And I actually know nothing. And I don't know what the purpose of all of this is. And I don't know if there's other life or what whatever else is going on in the universe. And that can be incredibly overwhelming, as you describe. And so how do people start to think about being open to learning, but not going so far as to be overwhelmed or be discouraged because it's too much now?

00;17;12;19 - 00;17;45;28
Carolyn Stern
Great, great question. I think, again, I think you need to pay attention to what's happening inside you. And I think the problem is, Aaron, we none of us, including myself, have had an emotional education. Right. Much ado has been made about IQ you know, reading, writing and arithmetic. Very little has to do with IQ, our emotional skills. If we knew our emotional makeup, if you knew like if I and in the book I ask people 15 questions and that's going to kind of determine where you kind of land on on on each of these 15 different skills.

00;17;46;07 - 00;18;05;09
Carolyn Stern
Well, if you and I have different levels of empathy, the strategies, the exercises I'm going to give you are going to look different than for me. So I think the first thing to do before you go into overload is start to pay attention to your emotions. And one of the simplest things that we do on on my website is we we give out a free emotions poster.

00;18;05;09 - 00;18;23;12
Carolyn Stern
And I know it seems Mickey Mouse, it's a bunch of little faces, but we got to give people an emotional education. We've got to teach people with the differences between frustration and anger. And when I ask people that question, it's like a deer in headlights. They're like, I don't know what the difference is, even though I feel these things all the time.

00;18;23;24 - 00;18;56;16
Carolyn Stern
Well, the difference the causal difference between frustration and anger is frustration stems from unmet expectations. Anger stems from injustice or unfairness. Well, how many? Aaron, come on. You got to be honest, me included. Have been frustrated at work, but shown it is anger. Right. And then the problem is, if you're angry or I think you're angry, and you stomp down the hall when you're actually in actuality, you are frustrated, I attribute an emotion to that and say, oh, Aaron's angry.

00;18;57;09 - 00;19;15;01
Carolyn Stern
That's what psychologists call attribution bias. I'm attributing an emotion to to your behaviors. But it might not I'm not brave enough to ask hey, Aaron, how are you feeling? So I think the key for us to you're right, I think we can go from I know it all or, oh, my gosh, there's so much to learn in the world.

00;19;15;01 - 00;19;27;14
Carolyn Stern
I think the key is to start to pay attention to what you're feeling and what is that feeling telling you about you? Because our emotions are incredibly powerful. If we start to pay attention to what they're selling us.

00;19;28;06 - 00;19;31;11
Aaron Pete
What do you define emotional intelligence as?

00;19;32;18 - 00;20;04;26
Carolyn Stern
Quite simply, it's being intelligent about your emotions. It's recognizing that we feel things. It's understanding where those feelings come from. So what are your triggers? It's labeling them appropriately. So am I angry or am I frustrated? It's expressing them appropriately. So it's like, Aaron, I'm angry rather than yelling and swearing at you. And it's regulating our emotions. And as I said in the very beginning of this podcast, it wasn't that I'm an emotional person that was getting in my way.

00;20;05;02 - 00;20;31;10
Carolyn Stern
It's that I was letting my emotions take the driver's seat of me. For the last two decades, I have spent time and energy and research, finding the calm the struggles and the mental strategies to be bigger than my emotions so that when I am angry and I want to pick up the phone and yell and scream at you, I press pause and make a conscious choice of, Hey, if I did that, what are the consequences of that action?

00;20;31;19 - 00;20;53;25
Carolyn Stern
And if I make a highly emotional, intelligent response, which would be, Hey, Aaron, I mean, I'm angry and here's why I'm angry, then what's the impact of that conversation? I think we don't press pause long enough and let's be honest. Do you even know what your triggers are? I work with so many executives, and when I ask them what their triggers are, again, blank stares.

00;20;53;25 - 00;20;59;12
Carolyn Stern
They have no idea. They know when they're triggered, but they don't actually know what their triggers are before they are triggered.

00;20;59;22 - 00;21;00;08
Tim McAlpine
Right.

00;21;00;21 - 00;21;24;13
Aaron Pete
How does empathy tie into this? Because empathy is a growing topic of discussion for people as well. And when we're talking about being able to look inwards and love yourself at that starting place, even though you may not want to be in that place long term, it seems like that's also applicable, as you kind of described to your mother, that you you can look at the benefits of what you went through, even though it's put challenges and barriers in your way.

00;21;24;17 - 00;21;31;15
Aaron Pete
You've grown as a consequence of that. And it seems like empathy is a growing conversation. And I'm just curious as to how that fits in with this.

00;21;31;26 - 00;22;00;13
Carolyn Stern
Well, it's I'm really glad you asked that question because it's actually the reason I finally, after five years of lobbying, got an emotional intelligence course in the school of business at the university I teach. But it's because we have this big empathy gap. And what empathy truly is, is being a bit appreciating and feeling, how others are feeling, how other people might feel so putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, so and caring about your feelings as much as you would do your own.

00;22;00;23 - 00;22;22;28
Carolyn Stern
So it's being attuned. So as much, you know, you and I both have our cameras on, I'm watching your body language, right? I'm listening to your tone of voice. Your words are just 7% of what I'm hearing. 38% is your tone but if you were sitting like this cross, you know, and had your arms crossed and making a snarly face, I might not I might have a different opinion of what you might be saying.

00;22;22;28 - 00;22;48;12
Carolyn Stern
The right words to me, but showing me it in different ways. And my mother actually jokingly says when she when I was little, she used to when she was really angry at me, she'd go, you little rat. I just, you know, I want to strangle you right now. And she would say that in the cutest voice. And as a baby, I'd be like Google, Googling and Googling But I mean, the point is our tone has so much our body language, what we do with that.

00;22;48;18 - 00;23;16;09
Carolyn Stern
So can we when we're empathetic, can we put ourselves in somebody else's shoes and see it from their perspective? And there are three types of empathy. There's cognitive empathy, which is perspective taking. I can see or think how you're thinking. There's affective empathy, which is I feel your pain. And then there's compassion. Empathy is I want to I feel your pain and I want to help And the key is we have created this empathy gap.

00;23;16;09 - 00;23;35;08
Carolyn Stern
Let's be honest. When our stress goes up, our empathy goes down. And let's be honest, we can very stressful the last few years. So we have lost the the ability to really put ourselves in somebody else's shoes. And one of my favorite quotes is you are not the standard to which everything is judged.

00;23;36;26 - 00;23;37;09
Tim McAlpine
Wow.

00;23;38;18 - 00;23;39;25
Aaron Pete
That's a really beautiful quote.

00;23;40;11 - 00;23;40;20
Carolyn Stern
Yeah.

00;23;41;19 - 00;24;00;20
Aaron Pete
I'm curious as to how people proceed when we're talking about empathy, because it seems like one of the challenges so many people face is being able to see and put themselves in shoes that they may not understand all of the backstory. So you think of having an employee or having a friend and not knowing what's in their bank account.

00;24;00;20 - 00;24;22;11
Aaron Pete
And so you don't know that that's a stress and so you're talking to a person and you think you know what the issue is because they're saying the issue is X when really it's three different things that they haven't told you about That's one of the challenges you think about having a conversation about an employee, about their performance, and you don't know that they actually just lost a family member or A, B and C issue going on.

00;24;22;16 - 00;24;29;18
Aaron Pete
And I'm just curious as to how we remain cognizant of these things when we may not be aware of all of the skeletons in the closet.

00;24;30;00 - 00;24;49;18
Carolyn Stern
Well, I think you make a really good point, and I mentioned it in the book. Emotions can be both experienced and expressed, so I can experience one thing, but show it is something else. And the problem is unless you go underneath the surface and in the book, I talk about these inner iceberg conversations. You know what killed the Titanic?

00;24;49;23 - 00;25;11;10
Carolyn Stern
It wasn't that little piece of ice above the water. It was that deep piece of ice, the iceberg underneath that water. Well, people are a lot like an iceberg. What you see is just what's immediately apparent what's below the surface is so, you know, what you see above the surface is our communications and our actions. But what's below the surface is our biases or assumptions.

00;25;11;15 - 00;25;34;14
Carolyn Stern
Our personal history or attitude or motivators or stressors, our concerns, our fears, all of that's below the surface. So what I encourage the people to do in the book and I encourage all my clients to do and my students do, is have inner iceberg conversation. Hey, how are you feeling today? One word feeling, don't say fine, because find is not a feeling, nor is good.

00;25;34;24 - 00;26;05;22
Carolyn Stern
How are you feeling? What is that feeling telling you about you? What are your motivators? What stresses you out? Erin you know what? What fills your bucket? What are your assumptions about that that situation that we've just been in? Do you have any personal biases that you're you you're aware of and that you might not even be aware of if we start to have those deeper conversations, not just, you know, what's the weather and who won the last sports game, but if we have those deeper heart level conversation, as you called it, then we can get to the heart of the matter.

00;26;05;29 - 00;26;08;21
Carolyn Stern
And really, it's our emotions that are at the heart of the matter.

00;26;09;11 - 00;26;32;06
Aaron Pete
I'm curious as to what the reception has been for this, because I think of some of the leaders that I know of, and they're so hardened and they view they're they're toughness, they're their stamp on things as as their greatest gift. And I consider them people who potentially would struggle with the idea that they have areas of improvement, that perhaps people should be more like them.

00;26;32;12 - 00;26;36;23
Aaron Pete
And I'm wondering if you've ever come across these people and what that kind of dialog might look like.

00;26;37;04 - 00;26;57;22
Carolyn Stern
Well, I and the time is up, right? The jig is up. The time is up. We got to turn leadership on its head, the stoic, unflappable, perfect leader that, you know, that scares everyone in the office. Or that appears to have all their their ducks in a row is out. Right. People follow people who are relatable, not perfect, and people don't.

00;26;58;02 - 00;27;21;17
Carolyn Stern
Let's be honest. The younger generation, Gen Z's are lower problem solving, lower stress tolerance and lower at independence than any generation before them. Why as they grow up with these things, phones and helicopter parents. Right. And so the worst thing we can do as leaders is, one, tell them the answers. That's number one, because we have to remember where teachers first of all, first and foremost as leaders.

00;27;21;20 - 00;27;37;25
Carolyn Stern
And I guess what I know the answers to my students test, but I don't tell it to them if I do the learning. So the worst thing we can do for this younger generation is to tell be the Problem-Solving hero and come in with our tapes and and show them all you know, never let them see you sweat No.

00;27;38;06 - 00;27;59;26
Carolyn Stern
We need to be authentic. This is a more emotional generation. We need to show that. We need to connect. That's our superpower. That's what's going to unite us. So time is up for this. And the stoic, unflappable leader. Because no one believes that anymore. No, everyone knows. I mean, the pandemic did such a service as much as it brought a lot of heartache.

00;27;59;26 - 00;28;20;00
Carolyn Stern
And I was quoted in the Vancouver Sun in 20, 20. But I was saying what everyone wasn't saying. I said, there is a silver lining. Although we're losing jobs and lost lives and isolation and all of that, I'm not discrediting all of that. That's hugely disappointing. But the silver lining, as it taught this younger generation to be emotionally resilient because guess what?

00;28;20;06 - 00;28;37;15
Carolyn Stern
Google and their parents didn't know the answer on how to live through a pandemic. They had to figure it out themselves. And the problem is because this younger generation has everything at their fingertips, they don't have to think. They don't have to go into the trees and just be with their brains and kind of let their minds think and innovate.

00;28;37;19 - 00;28;57;21
Carolyn Stern
All they have to do is scroll through other people's ideas and and try to, you know, bounce off of somebody else's ideas. What if just clear your brain? Let's what's going on in your brain? What do you think? What are your thoughts? What are your actions? So the worst thing we can do as leaders is to be that stoic, unflappable one.

00;28;58;21 - 00;29;17;16
Aaron Pete
I'm also curious about the research, because you are an educator. You work hard to educate students. You're sharing messages through YouTube and other channels. I'm just curious about what it's like to also tie this in with with real data that's useful for people than for the skeptics who may say, I've been doing this this way for 30 years.

00;29;17;20 - 00;29;20;15
Aaron Pete
You're bringing evidence. And I'm wondering what that's been like.

00;29;20;23 - 00;29;48;11
Carolyn Stern
Well, what I my favorite part of the book is actually all the observations I witnessed in the classroom and then showing them the research that proves what I'm seeing and then showing them because we graduate these kids without giving them an education. It becomes your responsibility as the leader to use it. So let's just use, for instance, students not getting enmeshed in people's stuff and having too much empathy and caring too much.

00;29;48;11 - 00;30;11;23
Carolyn Stern
So caring the lion's share of their work on their shoulders, taking a passive approach, maybe getting enmeshed in people's stuff, wearing their emotional burdens on their shoulders. Well, guess what? I guarantee that's happening in the workplace. Someone at work is not standing up for themselves, not saying, Hey, Erin, you're not doing your share of the work. They're taking that passive approach because we didn't teach them how to assert themselves in school.

00;30;12;01 - 00;30;34;03
Carolyn Stern
And we also didn't teach them that you can have empathy and boundaries at the same time so you can still care for people. Think about what I do all day here, and I listen to people's emotional trout troubles all day long in a corporate situation. I hear a lot of things. I would never go to bed at night if I didn't the I wasn't able to separate myself from my students and clients.

00;30;34;08 - 00;30;56;25
Carolyn Stern
And I remember one semester alone in one semester. And by the way, I just teach at a regular university. You know, I had one student but had gotten gang raped. I had one student that walked in on his sister who had hung herself. And I had one student that her her parent got murdered in. Her father got murdered in Mexico one semester.

00;30;57;20 - 00;30;58;01
Tim McAlpine
Wow.

00;30;59;08 - 00;31;31;07
Carolyn Stern
And because I what I teach, they tell me these things but I guarantee those students don't tell all their teachers. And they and they try to make through get through it. And as much as that's a lot to carry. I also know that no matter what problem comes our way, we are incredibly resilient individuals that as sad as those stories are and as painful as those stories are, I absolutely believe we all have the tools to be bigger than our problems.

00;31;31;26 - 00;31;56;01
Carolyn Stern
And all I did was connect with them on an emotional level. I didn't have to solve their problems. I don't know how to deal with those kind of traumas. That's never happened to me. I've never been trained in that. But what I did ask was, Erin, how can I support you? And then I listened. And I think that what I am noticing with all the research and you can see like this book is full of research.

00;31;56;22 - 00;32;17;27
Carolyn Stern
As much as I talked about what I observed in the classroom when in my in the hundreds of organizations I've been in, what I am still observing is that this lack of education, this emotional education, we're focusing too much on the wrong thing. We are you know, these kids can now look at with A.I., right? These kids can write their own papers by just sending a sentence.

00;32;18;07 - 00;32;40;18
Carolyn Stern
What we need to teach them is how to apply these these emotional and personal and interpersonal skills in the workplace, because guess what? We're still human and we're going to be working with other humans and humans are emotional creatures. And until we learn how to work with our emotions and then learn how to work with other people's emotions, we're missing the boat.

00;32;40;26 - 00;32;59;03
Carolyn Stern
So I think the key is, is in our education system, I still stay I still am a teacher. I still am a professor. And I stay there because I want to make a difference. I want these young kids to know that there is more than IQ. You know, I don't know about you, but I don't even remember my GPA.

00;32;59;07 - 00;33;24;07
Carolyn Stern
I don't even know how to calculate it. And by the way, I'm a professor. So as much as our IQ is important and might get us the job, our IQ is what's going to get promoted and be ultimately the byproduct of emotional intelligence is happiness. And I couldn't be a better example of that. My life is not perfect, Aaron, but I have never been more happy than I ever and more content with my life than I ever has, because I now have the tools.

00;33;24;13 - 00;33;28;05
Carolyn Stern
No matter what comes my way, I can deal with it.

00;33;29;19 - 00;33;53;29
Aaron Pete
Before we move on to the book, I have one more question about all of this. And it's just around politics. It's feeling like the politicalization of our society is continuing and I think of this empathy and understanding where people are coming from. It seems like that is really low on you have one side and they think the other side is just a bunch of bronies and then you have another side and they think the other side is completely evil and malevolent.

00;33;54;03 - 00;34;28;20
Aaron Pete
And it seems like that understanding sort of what you're talking about, what's going on behind closed doors, what people are thinking, the struggles that they're facing, the logic as to why they're making the decision they are in regards to supporting one group or another is all something we forget to do when we're having these conversations. And I just as a young person, I see so many people not being able to sympathize or empathize with the other side and that doesn't mean agree, as you describe, but you can put in your boundaries and say, I will not agree with that, but it at least gives you the ability to sympathize and empathize and say, okay, we may

00;34;28;20 - 00;34;34;20
Aaron Pete
disagree on this policy or that policy, but I understand where you're coming from. And I'm just curious as to your thoughts on that.

00;34;34;28 - 00;34;55;16
Carolyn Stern
I absolutely think that's the key to a lot of the world problems. I think if we again, go back to my favorite quote, you are not the standard to which everything is. Judge, we need to remember that I am seeing through the world, through my lens and I have a different upbringing, a different religious background, a different economic you know, I come from a different economic status.

00;34;55;21 - 00;35;17;10
Carolyn Stern
I, I don't see the world through everyone else's lens. So I need to ask you cannot make assumptions and just assume, oh, the world sees the world the way I do. And so I think it's really important to ask people there, why, why are you doing what you're doing? Why are you thinking what you're thinking now? I would always see a way in the book, I talk about this.

00;35;17;10 - 00;35;41;14
Carolyn Stern
I try to stay away from the word Y because Y puts people on the defensive. So you could say here and I'm curious, how come you think that way? I'm curious how come, you know, you sent that email? What was behind that? What were your intentions? And that's those inner iceberg conversations. If we can be brave enough to not just look up what's on the surface to go into their whys.

00;35;41;19 - 00;36;00;20
Carolyn Stern
And in the book, I talk about three whys, right? But the first, why is why are you doing what you're doing? And then once we can understand that again, we might not agree, but we can at least have more compassion and understanding. And when I do these workshops in the workplace, oh, my gosh, a two day workshop changes the culture dynamic.

00;36;00;26 - 00;36;20;21
Carolyn Stern
I've never seen something more dramatic than doing a two day week workshop and retreat with an organization. And they say, Oh my God, I've been working with Aaron for 30 years. I had no idea he was the way he was because of this. And now I have a deeper understanding. I don't necessarily like any Aaron anymore, but I certainly understand him more.

00;36;20;28 - 00;36;23;19
Carolyn Stern
And that's the key to having a peaceful world.

00;36;24;22 - 00;36;58;01
Aaron Pete
Your book is brilliant. In that it pulls together years and years of experience, like anecdotal evidence, but with the research. And I think that that's such a balanced approach that we don't always see. Sometimes it's all research and no real world experience, and sometimes it's all real world experience with no real legitimate data. And I think that that's such an important balance and as you said, we're starting to flip this idea on its head that a CEO is emotionless, all data driven, that there's certain qualities and personality traits that you need to have a healthy work environment.

00;36;58;01 - 00;37;17;00
Aaron Pete
You can certainly squeeze out all of the the productivity of a person, but when they're burnt out, you have to let them go and find new people to squeeze all their energy out and find another person. And so I'm curious as to you mentioned that the book came about originally for workplaces and for for leadership teams, but now it's more about going inside yourself.

00;37;17;00 - 00;37;32;12
Aaron Pete
And I think often we think of leaders as that person over there telling everyone what to do. But in your own life, you have to lead it. You have to lead your family have to lead your spouse. You have to support your children. You have your you're a leader in all different facets of your life, particularly with yourself.

00;37;32;12 - 00;37;35;23
Aaron Pete
And that seems like such a beautiful thesis to write a book about.

00;37;36;03 - 00;37;53;16
Carolyn Stern
And that's, you know, you couldn't I couldn't have said it better than you. I really did start this book as as trying to help people to lead because that's what I was doing all day long. And then I realized, wait, I'm putting that book number two, by the way. But book number one, I stopped and said, wait a second, before we can help others, we got to help ourselves.

00;37;53;22 - 00;38;15;10
Carolyn Stern
And that is leading our life. And that's why the subtitle is The Inside Out Journey to Transformational Leadership. And that's, like you said, leading your families, leading yourself, leading your communities. Right. That's what I'm talking about. Not leading people, leading yourself, figuring out how do you know who we are is how we lead. Right? Leadership isn't anything different than being who you are.

00;38;15;18 - 00;38;38;10
Carolyn Stern
And guess what? I have an issue trusting people that shows up in my leadership. I'm overly flexible. I over accommodate that shows up in my leadership. As I said to you, I'm a really needy 52 year old that shows up in my leadership. So our personality traits are ways of being our emotional makeup is who we show up in the workplace and as is how we show up.

00;38;38;10 - 00;39;14;08
Carolyn Stern
And and the one thing I want to say, and you said it earlier, leaders need to remember if you are that stoic, unflappable leader, the jig is up because that's not no longer your superpower. And the superpower is our emotions and connecting on an emotional level, we need to become emotionally strong, which means emotional, which means I feel things deeply and strong, which means I am bigger and stronger than my emotions now doesn't mean I'm strong arming my feelings or having a steely resolve not to feel it just means I feel things strong.

00;39;14;24 - 00;39;33;05
Carolyn Stern
I feel things. I am aware that what I'm feeling, I'm aware of what triggered that feeling. I'm aware of how to express that feeling I'm aware of, to label it appropriately. And then I'm aware. Aware of how to manage that feeling. That's what emotionally strong means. And that's the kind of leadership we we need because and here's the key.

00;39;33;28 - 00;39;59;29
Carolyn Stern
How we feel at work affects how we perform at work. And if Pete, if leaders could remember that if my workers are overwhelmed or burnt out, how productive are they? When was the last time you were emotional? How creative were you think of the last time you were overwhelmed? How well did you remember what you had to study for the test?

00;40;00;09 - 00;40;12;19
Carolyn Stern
You know, I think the last time you were angry how well did you communicate that with your partner? I think we need to realize that people, how they feel affects their performance. So we have to start talking about feelings.

00;40;13;09 - 00;40;33;14
Aaron Pete
I couldn't agree more. And I definitely think of the challenges of being able to think clearly when you're experiencing these emotions and being comfortable. It's almost like you need to be comfortable in a storm and when all of that coming through you that you need to be able to process it, close your eyes, take a second breathe, and then start to focus on on the next steps.

00;40;33;18 - 00;40;46;09
Aaron Pete
How do we move forward peacefully and kind of letting that ego aside? Because a lot of it is, as you kind of described, defense mechanisms for reactions to protect yourself from some sort of feeling rather than really processing how you feel.

00;40;46;19 - 00;40;55;13
Carolyn Stern
Yeah. Yeah. Anger is, is secondary emotion, right? And that's what the research shows. So I might be angry what's underneath that anger, right? And that's what we've got to figure out.

00;40;56;16 - 00;41;14;08
Aaron Pete
What was it like to release this book? As you said, fall? 20, 22. We're coming out of the pandemic now and starting to think about what the effects were. And I think that this is a great starting place for people to go. Okay, we just went through this. What are the next steps? How do I grow? Is it as a consequence?

00;41;14;11 - 00;41;17;12
Aaron Pete
And so I'm just curious as to what the release of the book was like for you.

00;41;17;24 - 00;41;38;26
Carolyn Stern
Well, like I said, I'm a first time author. Nobody knows who I am. And already this book has become a bestseller on Amazon. It was I just got nominated for 20, 22 Ford Indies finalist and I just was awarded the 2022 Axiom Award for the best business book in Leadership. And that does. Yes. Did I write a good book?

00;41;38;26 - 00;41;59;07
Carolyn Stern
Yes. I'm proud of myself. But more importantly, Lee, I wrote a timely book when I started my company. No one knew what emotional intelligence was, even though it's been around since the nineties, and I had to convince people why they need an emotional intelligence training. Now, since the pandemic, the phones are ringing off the hook because our emotions erupted from the surface.

00;41;59;12 - 00;42;18;10
Carolyn Stern
And we realize not only are we ill equipped to deal with our own, we don't know how to manage anyone else's in the workplace. So I think the reason why this book has gained so much popularity and again, like I said, for a nobody as a first time author, this is pretty I've been getting quite a bit of media coverage, you know, quite a bit of accolades for the book.

00;42;18;27 - 00;42;40;05
Carolyn Stern
It's because we're sick and tired of thinking that we're just task completers at work. We have emotions and like I said, the jig is up. We want our leaders to realize that we are emotional creatures and they need to talk to us about our emotions and they need to learn how to manage their emotions, but teach us how to manage our own.

00;42;40;11 - 00;42;59;25
Carolyn Stern
And we can't do that unless it starts in school. We have to start this in the school system because bottom line is we graduate these kids and it becomes the leaders responsibility we send them to the office, but they haven't learned these emotional skills. So we have to teach them in schools. And if we haven't taught them in schools, we absolutely need to teach in the workplace.

00;42;59;28 - 00;43;02;05
Carolyn Stern
And that's why I think my books become so popular.

00;43;02;26 - 00;43;25;27
Aaron Pete
I'm very curious about the goals of the book because we're talking about like who this audience is for. And I think it's beautiful. It's written for everybody to be able to improve. But I do think about the financial stress so many people are going through. We're seeing increases in an inflation rate we're seeing increases in the pressure on people's finances in regards to their mortgages, car payments.

00;43;26;04 - 00;43;48;29
Aaron Pete
And again, some of these things are outside of people's control. You can't change the price of your home. You can't change the price of your car. You can change the price of food to the grocery store, but you can try and control how you experience that and how you manage those emotions. And I just imagine that people are coming home and feeling incredibly stressed and overwhelmed when they look at the lack of money in their bank account, when they look at the price of food.

00;43;49;05 - 00;44;01;05
Aaron Pete
And I'm just interested if you have any thoughts on how people can start to work towards this. Obviously, one of them is going to be to pick up your book and start to read and and go inside themselves. But I'm just curious as to how we can think about these issues differently.

00;44;01;11 - 00;44;19;09
Carolyn Stern
Well, I think, again, it goes back to like how do we deal with change? If you're someone like me, I'm overly flexible. Well, that can be a bad thing. I can over accommodate. If you're someone who's very rigid in their ways and you're like, wait, the price of apples was this much I don't want to spend more money on the price of apples.

00;44;19;17 - 00;44;39;12
Carolyn Stern
We've got to figure out what emotional strategies you can because you're right. We can't impact the external world around us. We can only impact ourselves that that's the only circle of influence we have. So how we deal with it, how we experience it, how we deal with with whatever emotion is coming up is up to us. We are in control.

00;44;39;12 - 00;45;00;06
Carolyn Stern
We are in the driver's seat of our emotions. So if you're sad about what's going on economically, what can you do about that? What is that sadness telling you? Every emotion, Erin, good or bad, right or wrong, negative or positive has meaning. Let's take shame, for instance. Shame you know, hey, I really like the thing on your shelf.

00;45;00;06 - 00;45;26;15
Carolyn Stern
And if I wasn't feeling worried about feeling so ashamed, I might come to your office and go steal it. But my shame is keeping the boundary right to not steal it, to not do the wrong thing. So every emotion, sadness, happiness, right? It all has a meaning What is that meaning telling us about us and the world? And so what I would do is whatever the economic crisis is for that person is what are you feeling about it?

00;45;26;15 - 00;45;47;11
Carolyn Stern
Are you stressed? Are you worried? Are you anxious? What can you do about those feelings that are in your control? And then the other thing that I want to mention just from an organizational level. Yeah, if things are tough, the last thing you want is your good people to leave, right? That's only going to make your business worse.

00;45;48;07 - 00;46;15;18
Carolyn Stern
So how do we retain top talent? You make them feel cared for. You make them feel valued. You make them feel appreciated. Because no matter what, no matter what our role, no matter what our gender, no matter what our background, we all need three important things connection, appreciation and fulfillment. And when you feel connected to your boss and your team, when you feel appreciated for your efforts and you feel fulfilled in your role, it improves how you feel and perform at work.

00;46;15;25 - 00;46;31;19
Carolyn Stern
So if if anyone out there is listening, that's what I would say to you. You can't change what's happening with inflation rates, but what you can do is make people feel connected, appreciated and fulfilled in their roles so they won't leave. And you can retain top talent.

00;46;32;29 - 00;46;52;05
Aaron Pete
Just like you said at the beginning of the pandemic. I think these moments of pressure that we're going to experience financially are an opportunity for us to come back together. When you think about the Great Depression and people dropping off a carton of eggs, dropping off margarine or butter to their neighbors, reconnecting on that level is something I think we've missed for a few years now.

00;46;52;10 - 00;47;25;23
Aaron Pete
And I think that these are opportunities for us to get to know each other again and not have the nicest restaurants and then the biggest fans is to experiences, but to reconnect with other people. And I think one of your messages that's coming, your super clear for me is that we should do what's meaningful. We should focus on that and not necessarily on what makes us happy in the short term, because that connection, that sense of meaning, that sense of empowerment that you feel when you're doing something meaningful is going to outlast any sense of happiness that you might experience in the short term because you're invested the work that goes into making a book like

00;47;25;23 - 00;47;40;22
Aaron Pete
you did and every day might not be happy when you get the edits back. And there's a lot of work to go through. That's not always a happy day, but it's meaningful when you get to to be here, when you get to know the people who are reading the book and benefiting in improving themselves as a consequence of the work you're doing.

00;47;40;26 - 00;47;43;24
Aaron Pete
So would you mind telling people how they can find your book.

00;47;44;08 - 00;48;11;04
Carolyn Stern
So they can go on to my website, Carolyn's Ernakulam slash book, they can pick their favorite retailer and then buy it online and or they can go on to experience dot com, which is my corporate training company slash book. Yeah, experience book. And they can find it there as well. And if anyone's interested in any emotional intelligence training in their organizations, I absolutely think this is the most critical time to be doing it because I like I said, the jig is up.

00;48;11;16 - 00;48;30;05
Carolyn Stern
People are ready to have emotionally strong leaders. And that's and I'm really glad I'm building a community just like you're building a community with your podcast. I really feel what you're saying. You know, when I wrote the book, I think being an instructor and an educator helped me because halfway through the book there's worksheets. So they're going to have a there's work to be done.

00;48;30;05 - 00;48;51;17
Carolyn Stern
And what I didn't say which next book I will the very back of your book, Aaron, the very last page, there's a QR code, and if you click on that QR code, it takes you to a whole set of videos and a whole other workbook. So it's actually a book in one because I want to teach. If we can't if I can't change the education system tomorrow, I want to give people access to this edge.

00;48;51;17 - 00;49;16;10
Carolyn Stern
Emotional education, because it changed my life not only professionally but personally. And I really think emotional intelligence, it's been my lifeline. It is the answer to all our personal and interpersonal problems that exist. And if we could just learn to be bigger and stronger than our emotions and be smarter and have strategies to not let them take over our lives, we would all be in a better place.

00;49;17;09 - 00;49;43;01
Aaron Pete
I couldn't agree more. Carolyn, I'm not going to say that you just did a great interview, but I will say that I found you to be incredibly informative. I think you're incredibly raw and honest about the experiences you had growing up and how you process those and I think that that, as you've described, build stronger connections with other people when we're willing to put some of our experiences on the line, share that that creates the opportunity for connection and I think you've absolutely done this.

00;49;43;01 - 00;49;52;03
Aaron Pete
I highly recommend people go pick up your book and get educated on these issues because I do think it is the way of the future. And I'm just so grateful to have been able to spend this time with you today.

00;49;52;10 - 00;49;55;02
Carolyn Stern
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

00;49;57;19 - 00;50;00;13
Tim McAlpine
I would score very low in my emotional intelligence.

00;50;00;20 - 00;50;19;13
Aaron Pete
I didn't say anything, but I'm in the exact same boat when things get stressful. I just I've been called a robot once or twice when things get stressful because I just start to go step one, step two, step three, step four. So I definitely have some areas and improvement in regards to emotional intelligence.

00;50;19;25 - 00;50;36;16
Tim McAlpine
But yeah, I I would say if something really gets on my nerves, I'll just internalize it versus really trying to deal with it. And I did this and after a bit of being an introvert, but you just so I can whether or not.

00;50;37;26 - 00;50;43;22
Aaron Pete
Yeah, I can imagine you getting like, oh, I can't imagine you yelling, although I hate to see it.

00;50;46;10 - 00;50;47;10
Tim McAlpine
How much would you pay?

00;50;48;05 - 00;50;52;21
Aaron Pete
A fair amount. A fair amount for you to really come down on me.

00;50;52;24 - 00;51;15;08
Tim McAlpine
You know, you'd have to really set me off. And so far you haven't had any triggers self harm. I do love that. And I don't know if this part will be in the podcast or not, but there's this point in time and I see it in so many of your guests where they'll see someone like that is stole a ton of media and you get surface level question.

00;51;15;15 - 00;51;37;03
Tim McAlpine
You know, someone hasn't necessarily even cracked open the book and then any research on the person. But there's a point when your guests kind of lean in and go, Who is this guy who I've seen it over and over again? And it's just an attribute that you have of being an excellent interviewer and really doing the research in advance.

00;51;37;03 - 00;51;52;16
Tim McAlpine
It just shows up over and over again. And I love that moment of seeing in the guests mind. They're trending like there's calculations going on. How old is he? What is he doing? Like, how is he? And it's it's over and over again, and I love it.

00;51;52;27 - 00;52;30;16
Aaron Pete
You were the first to articulate that because that's always been the goal is and I have Substack article coming out and it's like a good question makes a guest feel seen like it doesn't matter if I have one follower 10,000 followers the recognition of getting what they're doing and seeing them for who they are matters a lot. And when you're doing these interviews and you get the same ten questions every time, it can be like that's an insult to what I do when I see people do that in news or whatever it is, that's like very discouraging because these people have put ten years 20 years into what they're doing and the least you could do

00;52;30;16 - 00;52;51;16
Aaron Pete
is do some research into what they do and try and have a conversation that flows. So there's an arc and you can see the journey. And when you pointed that out, that became the dedication is making sure we do that every episode because that's important. I feel like why you've been so supportive is because you see that we did that panel event and really trying to be there and zone in on what they're saying.

00;52;51;20 - 00;53;03;26
Aaron Pete
So the follow up actually makes sense rather than referring to some script. And I've noticed some people are skeptical when they're like, you're not going to follow like like ten questions. And it's like, No, this is worth the risk.

00;53;04;08 - 00;53;41;17
Tim McAlpine
Yeah. And this is a bonus for someone watching on the video version of this production. But Aaron is staring into a teleprompter. We use it as I'm not a teleprompter. It's essentially he's staring down the people in a zoom window. But you can see a little bit that there's a real on either side of that zoom window. And I've asked here, and do you want to put notes or do you want people questions or because others say use this studio or do they they have their their 20 questions or whatever they're trying to get across or they really need to to nail it.

00;53;41;17 - 00;54;08;06
Tim McAlpine
And I don't disparage that whatsoever. It's super useful but I do know that you're just staring down the gas the entire time and nodding and and it makes a difference when a person is studying your next question and only half listening to the answer that's coming back to them. A, it puts the guest off and B, you can't react and ask a question that's off script right and so now that's been a definite superpower of yours.

00;54;08;18 - 00;54;37;25
Aaron Pete
Yeah, it is definitely a jump because doing a few interviews and when it goes from this question to way over here, and they don't seem at all related, it's hard for your brain to go from one to the other. And then as you kind of describe, it's less engaging. But it is something I think I'm tortured by in a sense because it's do I follow up on what they just said or do I go to the next topic of conversation, which in this case is a book and choosing between the two is always something like, okay, we're at this point in the interview, should I move on?

00;54;38;01 - 00;54;52;01
Aaron Pete
I'm a very curious and it's like it's that gut instinct of like not have to know, I have to ask this question. I'm not going to be happy with this if I don't end. Not always like this journey, you know? Why, thank you so much, as always.

00;54;53;05 - 00;54;54;28
Tim McAlpine
That's it. What number is this one?

00;54;55;24 - 00;55;02;06
Aaron Pete
100 and something. I'm not sure what order we can go in, but as always.

00;55;02;06 - 00;55;04;11
Tim McAlpine
Congratulations to number 100 and something.

00;55;04;24 - 00;55;06;16
Aaron Pete
Thank you. It's been a journey.