Why The Journey Matters More Than The Exit

We sit down with John Hewitt to unpack how building three 500-plus franchise brands came from purpose, service, and relentless action, not quick exits. He shares why principles must trump policies, how to spot real market gaps, and why giving more than you take creates durable success.

• shifting from exit mindset to journey mindset
• spotting “vacancy” opportunities in crowded markets
• who should pursue self-employment and why
• principles over policies as a service standard
• differentiators that scale trust and speed
• action over perfection in budgets and launches
• gratitude, health, and faith as performance levers
• philanthropy and solving hunger at scale
• hiring to your weaknesses and loving the details

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Complimentary Edwards Consulting Session: https://calendly.com/jordan-edwardsconsulting/30min

Chapters

• 0:00 Purpose Over Payday
• 3:28 Learning By Doing: The Hard Knocks Path
• 5:08 Spotting Opportunity And Market Gaps
• 7:13 Who Should Be Self-Employed
• 10:28 Early Signals Of Entrepreneurial Fit
• 13:08 A Father’s Nudge And Big Career Leap
• 15:58 Compete To Win, Not To Participate
• 20:08 Service Quality Decline And Standards
• 24:28 Principles Trump Policies
• 27:58 Selling One Company, Starting Another
• 30:58 Gratitude As A Performance Edge
• 34:28 Give More Than You Take
• 37:58 Fanatical Drive And Fear Of Losing
• 41:28 Action Beats Perfection
• 44:58 Health, Mindset, And Longevity
• 47:58 Philanthropy And Ending Hunger Now

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:00

Hey everyone, I got a special guest here today. We have John Hewitt. He isn't just a founder, he's a builder who has done what almost no one else has. Three companies each scaled past 500 franchises. And what I love about his philosophy is he thought getting rich would mean sitting on a beach. But instead, he realized the real blessing is helping others. This convo is going to be about purpose, persistence, and systems behind building huge companies. John, thank you for coming on the hashtag ClockedIn Podcast. Jordan, it's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33

The first question I have for you is you once thought getting rich meant sitting on a beach until you realized the real blessing was helping thousands of franchisees win. When did that shift happen for you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:46

Well, as I began to become successful, I realized that the journey is a long time. And waiting for the treasurer at the end, when you get to the treasure at the end of the rainbow, uh it took me 15 years in my first company to sell it for$483 million. We raised in August of 1982, we raised$129,000 and 15 years later sold it for$483 million. And it sounds like climatic. I mean, if you don't enjoy the 15 years, you're an idiot. Right? So it's the journey is the joy.

SPEAKER_00: 2:27

So you started to fall in love with the journey and not so much about the destination. So this whole idea of build a company, sell it is somewhat of a fallacy.

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

It's it's uh shallow.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

Absolutely. And and where did you learn start to learn all these different skills about being self-employed? Where did all this come from? Because I mean, to for your first company to do that is absolutely incredible.

SPEAKER_01: 2:53

You know, there's no school in this country of teaching someone to be CEO and tell them their own company. And it's so I've been in the school of I call it hard knocks. Right? I've been in the school of hard knocks for 43 years now.

SPEAKER_00: 3:14

Absolutely. And have you always been a lifelong learner, or did you ever think you were gonna have a regular job and go that direction?

SPEAKER_01: 3:21

Or that wasn't ever no, I didn't, I didn't have an idea. I sort of stumbled into the right place at the right time. When I was at the University of Buffalo, I was in school to be a mathematician, and I don't even know what a mathematician would do, but maybe be its instructor or professor or something. I had no clue. And then I took that HR block course and I found the dream, the dream job that I the dream dream career that you know just just was has been fabulous.

SPEAKER_00: 3:57

Absolutely. And in our pre-call, you kind of told me about how you thought about seeing an opportunity. Can you share with the audience about how you saw that opportunity and how you kind of see opportunities today? Because I know a lot of people are sitting there going, I gotta start a business right away, and that's maybe not the best approach.

SPEAKER_01: 4:16

No, I think you have to be thoughtful and and it be it became obvious during during my career, it became obvious because I helped HR block grow from 3,000 locations to 9,000 locations. Wow. And yet the second largest only had 200 locations. So it's pretty obvious to to just about anyone with half a brain that there's always room for a second or third competitor. And uh so that opportunity was just it was vacancy, vacancy, vacancy was flashing.

SPEAKER_00: 4:53

Yeah. It was it was obvious that you could fit in that role. And and for you, you we've we've talked about this a little bit before, but like does self-employment, is that something for everyone? Is that something that everyone should aspire to? Because in the day and age today, I feel like everyone, the younger people are like, be an entrepreneur, be your own boss. Well, what do you think about all that?

SPEAKER_01: 5:17

The statistics are two-thirds of Americans want to be self-employed. I've helped almost 6,000 people become franchisees. And while a lot of people want to be self-employed, not everyone has the wherewithal. You have to have an unusual risk tolerance, you have to be a self-starter, you have to be your own boss, you have to have get up and go. And not everyone has that. Lots of people need security and they crave security. So it's not for everyone. But I've had some failures, but most of the people failed because they weren't meant to be self-employed. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 6:00

And and you and you mentioned about a few things risk tolerance, self-starter. How does somebody know their risk tolerance or know if they're a self-starter?

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

Well, self-starter is uh is a lot easier to know than risk tolerance, I think. Right. But um I think most people most people understand the risk tolerance and they stay away from it if it's if it's not meant for them.

SPEAKER_02: 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:30

But um I'm not sure. I'm not an expert on how people know that. I certainly, before I let someone join me that's never been self-employed, I certainly try to to probe to see if they have that. And they have that ability. And one of the things they look for, Jordan, is have they been self-employed before? Even even as a child, did they have a paper route? Did they have mow lawns? Did they sell Christmas cards? Did they do something that was so that was on their own ever? If they didn't, did their parents? Yeah. If it doesn't run in the family, and they've never done anything, even a side hustler, right? I mean, yeah, you can be an Uber driver and be self-employed, right? If you've never had a side hustler, then um it's very questionable whether you whether you should be contemplating it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:31

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because uh, I mean, everyone's gotta fit in their role, right? There wouldn't be entrepreneurs and there wouldn't be thousands and thousands and millions of employees if everyone had the same risk tolerance. So, for you, how how'd you start to know about your risk tolerance?

SPEAKER_01: 7:49

Well, back to what that what you just said about you're you're right about the fact that um it's it's a good thing for me that everyone's not meant to be self-employed because it would be so hard for me if I didn't have people to do the work. Yeah, I need people that want to be workers. Yeah, I can't have all self-employed people. So, so um I I um was fortunate that my dad kind of dragged me into being self-employed. He he was the visionary that saw that HR block wasn't computerized, the world wasn't computerized. Most of your viewers aren't old enough to remember a world without computers, but my dad was a visionary and and the world was not computerized back in in the 1970s. And so he saw that that niche and he dragged me, he dragged me uh from my job where I was happy into a uh whole new, even better world.

SPEAKER_00: 8:55

That's incredible. And and what what allowed you to go for it? Was it just your dad's commitment? Was it just the belief in that? What was it for you?

SPEAKER_01: 9:04

Yeah, and no, I was so happy at HR Block. I had I was running, I was not yet 30, running 250 offices, incredibly successful. And on my way up to top management, I mean, I was one of the there was about 550 people at that level in the country on my way up, and one of the best in the country already. And uh so happy. There's only one one way I would have left, and it was my dad.

SPEAKER_00: 9:35

Wow. Our parents do have a large impact on us. Hopefully. Hopefully, it's positive, right? It can be either or. It can be either or. It certainly can. And what allowed you to keep pushing? Because there were a lot of people would have been very content with just three offices, let alone 10 offices, let alone a thousand, let alone what you've done.

SPEAKER_01: 10:02

Like I've I don't know when it started in my life, but I've always had uh as long as I can remember, my goal has been to be number one. So whether it was in in school, whether it was in a in a um race, uh racing my my friends down the street, whether it was in a pickup baseball game or football game or basketball game, I've always wanted to win. I bought I I'm a poor loser, I'm a obsessive competitive person. And that's why the name of my book is I compete.

SPEAKER_00: 10:39

So you're willing to go all out, leave everything on the field, do whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_01: 10:46

Yes. The uh, you know, uh Michael Jordan um is uh an incredible basketball player and best ever. And Dennis Rodman is uh uh was no one like Dennis Rodman. I don't know if you are old enough to remember who he is, but he not only fought with his opponents, he fought with his own teammates sometimes on some of his teams. He was just a nasty person. And I saw him being interviewed, and I'm not a fan of Dennis Rodman at all, but I saw him, I was changing channels and I saw him being interviewed, and they said, you know, how did you get along with Michael Jordan? Right? And you didn't get along with anyone. He said, because when Michael and I stepped, we're the same in one way, when we set foot on that court, we would rather die than lose. Right? We give 200%. So, so yes, it's a fanaticism about about a commitment to win.

SPEAKER_00: 11:51

I love that. And it's not talked about enough because a lot of the time people are getting handed trophies for little things they didn't even do, the kids nowadays.

SPEAKER_01: 12:00

I hated that when my son, I mean, my oldest son, 47 years old, when he was in, you know, six years old, seven years old, eight years old, we'd have to buy him a$25 trophy for seventh place. I mean, it was so disgusting.

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

Yeah, and it it's it's gotten much worse nowadays where everyone gets a trophy.

SPEAKER_01: 12:25

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, whether you're sixth, seventh, eighth, yeah. I mean, uh yeah, I don't believe in that. I only believe in rewarding the winners.

SPEAKER_00: 12:34

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you you've also talked about the the differentiator. There's very few people, like you talked about how your business, Jackson Hewitt with your father, you ended up having the tech that allowed you to be successful there, or a differentiator. And you're saying that a lot of people nowadays you've seen it being on the decline with differentiating. Do you think that's still true? Or people just not caring, or what what is it? Or companies, or is it just profit, or what do you think it is?

SPEAKER_01: 13:06

To be clear, uh, what what I mean is that I in my whole life, I think the quality of service that America has to button.

SPEAKER_02: 13:16

Really?

SPEAKER_01: 13:16

It's it's it's been so disappointing to watch.

SPEAKER_00: 13:21

And where do you see it most? Just everything? Like, is it service providers and dependents? The restaurants, well, the restaurant's a great example.

SPEAKER_01: 13:30

Can you tell me the rule? That why is there this rule that you go to a restaurant and you have a uh reservation for six people, and five people come come and they say, we can't seat you until everyone's here. Now, what kind of service is that? Yeah, that's just pathetic. So, yeah, I mean, I Jordan, can you tell me why that's a rule?

SPEAKER_00: 13:58

I mean, now that you bring it up, it actually makes zero sense. Right. And normally I would sit there and get annoyed at the sixth person that's not there, but in reality, you should be upset at the system that's not allowing you to be certain, like we'll buy we'll pay for things now. Let's start paying things earlier.

SPEAKER_01: 14:15

And and think about my life. I I travel 120 days a year, and I'm in in uh 60 or 70 cities. And I meet with I meet with people. And now, so if I have six people, there may be one couple and or two couples and two singles, and they may be coming three hours away.

SPEAKER_02: 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:37

And so we all get there. We're not a team, right? These are these are prospective franchisees and existing franchisees. And you know, stuff happens, you get caught in traffic.

SPEAKER_02: 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:51

And so why why are we the rest of us being punished? I mean, it's just uh so those kind of rules are just are just uh totally disappointing. And here's another example. You know, back in the when when Walmart started, yeah, I set a goal to be in Walmart within three years in 1993. And we we made it. But the first thing the first thing we did is we we took the local, there was one Walmart in our city in in the Virginia Beach area, beach Virginia area. And we took a Walmart manager out to lunch, and he wore like a cardigan sweater. I mean, he didn't he wasn't even dressed in a suit. But um, and I and my getting my impression was he wouldn't even have on a sweater, a nice sweater, unless unless he had planned to come to that lunch. And by the way, you can never buy them dinner or lunch. So really I didn't get to pay. They have a rule uh yeah, you get fired if you pay accepted someone paying for your dinner or lunch. Oh, wow. So in any event, he told this story. He said, well, there was a guy that came into a Walmart, and Walmart back then in 1993 had a money-back guarantee. And Stan Walton had died a couple years before that. And he said, there's a guy who came into a Walmart, and he had this Franklin stove, this little stove that had been uh made 60 years before Walmart even started. And it was all dilapidated and you know, crunch and and rusted out. And the guy that at the in the Walmart said, here, take another one and just and go ahead and take a replacement. And he said, again, it was sold or made even before Walmart was invented. And he said, that was Mr. Sam. It called him Mr. Sam. Well, he then Sam had died, uh, as I said, a couple years before that. By the turn of the century, seven years later, they were beginning to stop money-back guarantees. So you could have some things you you didn't get any money back guaranteed, some things it would be 30 days, some things it would be a year, but now you can't get a money-back guarantee in almost anything at Walmart.

SPEAKER_02: 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:23

But this manager, think about the way he treated his customers, knowing that what Mr. his what he had to learn about what Mr. Sam had done, he was much better uh at exceeding customers' expectations. It's gotten worse and worse every year.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

Because we're not seeing those leaders as much because everyone's in the system. So it's oh we can't break the rules. We need approval. Can we do this? So, so how how at loyalty brands are you making it unique and having that exceeding expectations? Uh just just for or just for the audience to sit there, if they might have a company or they're part of a company and they might be like, oh, that'd be a cool thing to implement. Is there anything that you do that you think?

SPEAKER_01: 18:09

Yeah, we you know, I I preach that there are two there are two things, right? That one is principles and one is policies. And uh principles, I teach them that principles trump policies. So for example, years ago, um there was a um situation where we only took calls in accounting department from franchisees between two and four. And at 415, one of the lowest level accounting account payable clerk gets a call at 415. It's and and the somehow the franchise got through the switchboard. Yeah. She said, Oh, it's past four o'clock, I can't talk to you, and hung up with the phone. And so our principal is happy, successful franchisees, and she violated the principles. Yeah, she was cold because principles first, and then policies. Policies are meant to violate principles.

SPEAKER_00: 19:17

I like that. That's unique, and you don't usually hear that from the top because most of the time it's just follow the rules, follow the rules, follow the rules, and it's not like you're basically saying, hey, if this is our main goal, and we can break these rules at any time to satisfy the main goal. And that's a differentiator.

SPEAKER_01: 19:35

Exactly. And you you herald the employees that do that. You hold them up in a claim for look, look at what happened. This situation happened.

SPEAKER_00: 19:47

Yeah, I completely agree with this because this is something I've been thinking about where it's that we can all be trained. Like we all don't think we can be trained, and that sounds wrong because we're like, oh, we train dogs and we train cats. No, people can be trained. You applaud the good behavior, and then you ridicule in private the poor behavior, where you're like, hey, I don't really appreciate that. Can we adjust this? Is there a way to do this a little differently? Exactly. Because it allows them to build, it allows them to build what they're trying to do. So for you, what was and I just want the audience to realize, you sold your first business when? And then when did you start your second business? Because I think this is really powerful for the audience to realize.

SPEAKER_01: 20:27

I started, I sold in um December of 97 and started the same day.

SPEAKER_00: 20:36

Most people would think you're crazy. Well, why'd you do that? Like, what what was the what was the thought process there?

SPEAKER_01: 20:45

I don't know what else I would do. Right? And first of all, there's nothing as much fun as improving improving people's lives. I mean, that's the biggest enjoyment. On the planet is improving people's lives. And so I have lived a life of fun. I invented the phrase, I think. Thank God it's Monday. Right. Everyone else, if you're living a life that thank God it's Friday, boy, I feel bad for you. With me, it's, you know, 365 days. And I've been so blessed that in my life I have six children, 11 grandchildren, and five great-grandchildren. And all my friends or relatives have either been franchisees, employees, stockholders, or a combination of the above. And so there's no there's no day off at Christmas. We're talking, we're talking business, but we love it. We love it. We love and we love changing people's lives. And so that's I wait wake up happy every day and go to sleep happy in between a macabre and a lot. But um I there's not a day goes by that I am not incredibly grateful for the blessings I've been given.

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

I love that. And where do you think you started to realize that moment? Because there's definitely people on the call who are like, thank God it's Friday. Like we all know it. So how do you think someone could find that thank God it's Monday mentality? Like, what do they need to look for? What questions do they need to ask, or how can they think about it differently?

SPEAKER_01: 22:27

Well, to me, it starts with God and grateful. And being if you if you are if you believe in God and and live a godly life, then that starts with being grateful. You know, I preach to everyone that being alive and healthy in in the United States of America, you're in the top 1% most fortunate people on the planet.

SPEAKER_02: 22:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 22:54

So every day you need to pitch yourself and start with that. You know, I have six children and I love my children to death, but all of them are spoiled rich kids. They will not, they will not understand how grateful they are. They they just take it for granted. I I don't know about you, but I grew up war. When I when I was in you know 12, 13, 14 years old, I had two pairs of jeans. I would wear one one day, and my mother would wash my other pair and wear that other one the next one, and maybe five shirts or something. I mean, I was hot. I I knew it and I was cocky. I knew I was gonna get wealthy, but I was poor and and so I appreciated so much the and I've achieved so much, but uh I didn't do that because I went out and I'm this incredible human being that did it by myself, but God gives different people different blessings, and I I've been incredibly blessed, and I've and I've and I've never ceased appreciating that.

SPEAKER_00: 24:02

Absolutely. I mean, I I think gratitude is one of the biggest things in the world, and a lot of us struggle with it because we don't have that perspective, and we're just like, I have to do this, I have to do this. And I try to remind people, I think Ed Milad said it is that we get to do things, we don't have to do anything in the United States. Like, there's a lot of things we get to do, which keep us motivated. And for that that brings up the next topic for you, what keeps your motivation going? Because 1880 days traveling, and you could just you could be retired, you could be doing anything like that's a good amount of travel. Like what what teams if you go to something or don't, or how how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 24:42

Well, first of all, um I'm committed to win. Yeah, and and I brought in almost 6,000 franchisees myself. And and so not only did I bring them in, but I I'm mentoring them and guiding them, and continually mentoring and guiding them. So and and I've had and they had 100,000 employees. Yes. So just today in my Fredericksburg, uh, Virginia, and I will meet with with some people that I've helped over the years and some potential new franchisees. And so it the face-to-face is so much better than Zoom or or online that uh I'm a face-to-face guy. And it's all about people. When you sign a deal and you assign a partnership or a franchise agreement, it's not about the paper you sign, it's about the people you deal with.

SPEAKER_00: 25:41

Yeah, it's about the trust. And I also want to note that I actually went to the Loyalty Brands Conference this past year, and everybody said the same thing about John. They go, I don't know how he does it. I don't know how he meets with everyone, I don't know how he's talking to everyone, but he knows everyone and he does because that's the type of guy John is, because he wants to win. So if you ever have goals or aspirations um for your business or your dreams or your family, like you got to go after it like a crazy person. You gotta be committed and do more work than anyone believes that actually is logical to getting that success. Like you just gotta keep pushing. Um is that is that what keeps you going?

SPEAKER_01: 26:24

Well, first of all, uh let me add one part to that. That yeah, what one of the reasons I learned, and I didn't learn this until last 10 years, that it's what when I have this fanatical desire to win, it's it may be more because I hate losing than I want to win. Because I compete in in so many ways, I will bet like a dollar on a football game. Yeah, I'll bet a dollar on some historical fact. We'll be arguing and you know, or who sings this, hear a song on the radio, I want hit wonder from 1964, and we'll bet a dollar on who who the artist are, right? I just but I learned that the pain of losing is 20 times worse than the joy of winning. So some of my competitiveness is I'm just such a bad loser. Right. But yes, you have to be fanatical, uh, and uh you have to be over the top. If you do, uh and you talked about differentiators before, if David had gone on to the field with the same sword and shield and armor as Goliath, there wouldn't be a David and Goliath story. He'd be the 189th guy killed by Goliath. Yeah. So you have to come up with your differentiator. And I think um the uh the Green Bay coach, uh I forget his name off for a second, but uh the greatest, one of the greatest coaches of all time, he said, Vince Lombardi, he said he said we go onto the field every game with a with a plan to win, knowing that we can't always win. That's life wouldn't be fun if you always win, right? It would be boring, right? So you have to the the possibility of losing is actually a good thing because again, it would just be the most boring life if you won 100% of the time. So we said we we go out in a deal with a game plan to win. We don't knowing that we're not going to, but we're either going to win or learn a lesson to have us win the next time, or both.

SPEAKER_00: 28:43

I I love that because I actually gave uh I gave two speeches yesterday and I was talking to people about basically action versus inaction and what and it's kind of this action versus perfectionism idea where people don't realize that it's better to do imperfect action because everyone wants to get the things correct or do it right the first time. And every single time it was always just take more action and you'll learn it's that, but in the school system has forced us to sit there and realize that our our results we don't want to fail because we feel like a loser because that's what school taught us. And that's just that's just completely wrong. And in life we learn, and it's all about learning.

SPEAKER_01: 29:24

I'm so um perfectionists are so annoying to me, right? Because you're never gonna get it perfect, yeah. Right. And um, if if you if you wait and get it perfect, right, then it's you missed the boat. You gotta get to a point that it's 97-98 percent. Now there's some places you have to be perfect, yeah, but not in not typically in business. Yeah. If you're if you're doing a brain operation or a heart operation, I guess, right? There are some places perfection is critical, but but not in a budget, for example. I mean, I hate when people I try to guide people to do budgets. And I tell them, I mean, they spend tens and dozens of hours trying to get it exactly right. And I tell them you take a great company like a a Walmart or a Microsoft or you know, an IBM, and and they have hundreds of people in their budgeting department, and they'll miss their budget by 10 or 20 percent. Right? It's you're never gonna get it right. Don't waste too much time on it. Yeah, it's it's uh the pursuit of perfectionism hurts the opportunity of creation.

SPEAKER_00: 30:48

I love that. Yeah, the pursuit of perfectionism hurts the opportunity of creation.

SPEAKER_01: 30:54

Exactly. You want to be creative, then you you have to you have to be exploratory.

SPEAKER_00: 31:01

Yeah, and you have to be willing to make mistakes, and that's okay. That's part of the journey. It's part of the journey.

SPEAKER_01: 31:08

So they say they say that people that have most successful have made the most mistakes. So journal at my age, I've made way more mistakes than you can ever imagine.

SPEAKER_00: 31:19

Of course. Of course, and because you put yourself out there too. It's a completely different from the person who doesn't even try. Like, because when you're trying, I I spent money on this, I tried this, I tried this. I'll try anything. Like, let's see what works. And that's part of the journey.

SPEAKER_01: 31:36

Um, you know, you know, Thomas Edison and that is the light bulb. Yeah, and and he tried thousands of different combinations. And people would say to him, Aren't you depressed that you've you've made all these mistakes? He said, No, because I know one more thing that doesn't work. I'm that much closer to getting the right answer.

SPEAKER_00: 31:58

And that's the way we have to look at things. And even if you start getting no's or rejections or that, you're that much closer to the yes that you're looking for or desiring. So with Edwards Consulting, uh, there's five pillars: there's mental health, physical health, community service, philanthropy, spirituality, and relationships. I'm gonna ask you today how you're feeling on each one of them. And then you can kind of give the audience a little bit why because it helps them understand you a little bit more. So, John, for you, what's your mental health like today on a one to ten?

SPEAKER_01: 32:28

I'm a 10. Well, because I'm just so grateful. And and I you cannot catch me having a bad day.

SPEAKER_00: 32:36

I love it.

SPEAKER_01: 32:36

Is there a gratitude for acting? When when you know at Dunkin' Donuts, they call me Mr. Incredible. Because it just started about 16 months ago. During my life, I used different words to describe how I am that day, right? When you asked me, when we started this call, you said, How are you doing today? I said, as incredible as usual.

SPEAKER_02: 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

And so I've used different words over the years, amazing, fantastic. But I changed about a year and a half ago to incredible. And so and so the even the girls at Dunkin' Donuts said, say uh after a few months, they say I love that because most people say good or okay, or right. And so I feel guilty because they often give me free coffee now, and they call me Mr. Incredible. So I have this rule, I can't let people do more for me than I do for them. So, so um, last Christmas and again this Christmas, I said I'm a Christmas tree in flowers. Because if they give me all these free coffees, sometimes it's so to me, it's hard to accept those kind of things. Sometimes I'll go to the uh Dunkin' Donuts that's a little further away because I don't want to take advantage of them. But yeah, I'm I'm uh I live a life of of uh gratefulness and and just incredible blessing.

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

I love that. I I think more of us have to start asking ourselves, how can we show up grateful in the world? What can we be grateful for? Because it is one of the most powerful things, and so many of us just take it for granted. Now, physical health on a one to ten, how are you feeling there?

SPEAKER_01: 34:24

Well, I just bought fell a couple days ago. Okay. Other than other than that, I'm I'm doing fantastic. I'm I'm 76 years old, and I my my health has been so great that I feel like I'm almost never sick. I haven't I haven't vomited in the 21st century.

SPEAKER_02: 34:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

I have never had a flu shot except for COVID, where I from work I had to have flu shot, or I couldn't get into hotels and restaurants and meetings, but I've never had a flu shot, never had the flu. And so I'm just I feel like I've got an extra year or two of life because I'm just generally so healthy. Except for right now. Right now, I just had a yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:07

But you're usually one, you're a very like natural person, you're saying. Yes. Gotcha. Yeah, no, because I I've realized that I think I to be completely honest, I think some people when they get sick is sometimes a mindset thing. Like sometimes the weather not feeling well and treating their body poorly, but sometimes it's a little bit of the mindset. And when you have this gratitude mindset of being so grateful all the time, I think that helps with the physical health.

SPEAKER_01: 35:33

Anxiety and depression and bad attitude will make you sick.

SPEAKER_00: 35:38

It really does. Someone said that 90% of people in hospitals are mentally have their like are meant. It's not always physical, sometimes it's in their head. Exactly. Yeah. So it's just a push-through. What about community service philanthropy? How do you feel about that? And how do you kind of implement that into like what you do?

SPEAKER_01: 35:59

Yeah, in all of our companies, we have eight companies today, and in each of our companies, and we have over, we just passed 500 franchisees for the third time. And one of our principles in all of our companies to give back. Because there's so many great charities. There's Heart Fund and Cancer and Diabetes, and my personal choice was world hunger. And so the same when I as I became to get began to get wealthy, I began to focus on world hunger. So I have two, two, I have two focuses. One is church and the other's world hunger.

SPEAKER_00: 36:47

I love that. And and is there a specific group or a specific, is it like a school or like a money, or is it what what is it exactly with the hunger?

SPEAKER_01: 36:57

To go into it in a little depth. Um I felt compelled to save lives.

SPEAKER_02: 37:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 37:04

I hated back in the 80s, 90s hearing that 35,000 people a day were dying of starvation. It's just like that was so scary. And now it's down to 30,000. But uh so I felt compelled to save lives. So I went out on a journey to find a hunger organization that just focused on saving lives. I couldn't find one. So there was uh they every every organization they saved their lives, and then they either proselytized, told them about God and Jesus, or the andor. They taught them how to fish or farm or while those are important. Yeah, someone's gonna do that. I didn't, well, I'm teaching them how to farm or fish or take care of themselves. There's tens of thousands of people dying over there.

SPEAKER_02: 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:58

So I looked, I couldn't find an organization that that focused on saving lives. And so I was I was helping, I started with the Hewitt Foundation. And I partnered with a company or an organization, a great organization in the United States called Society of St. Andrew. And they just focused in the U.S. where people aren't dying. They're just malnourished. And so when they had a call from overseas that people were dying, they would put me in touch and I would help. And then one day I was having lunch with one of the two founders, Ray Buchanan, a Methodist minister, and he said, Oh, what was me? He said, I just went to Africa. I saw all these people dying. So I gotta change, I gotta do something different. I said, Well, what would you do if uh if you could have your choice? He said, I'd I'd go over to hospice, find people dying, come back and within two weeks send food. Start sending food. And I said, Bray, my dream's a little different. That I want you to have a phone with you and start the food the day you're there. And so in January 1998, the year, the day I started uh Liberty Tax Hunders, we started Staff Hunger Now. And we've had today we have over 100 employees and have distributed over 500 million meals and saved you know millions of people's lives. Wow. And the myth statement was the same name as the organization, Staff Hunger Now.

SPEAKER_00: 39:40

Wow. I love that. And you've been doing it for almost 30 years. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 39:47

Well, the UN Foundation was before that. So I've been doing it for over 30 years, but but that organization started uh in uh on January. It'll be our 28th anniversary.

SPEAKER_00: 40:00

That's amazing. And what what about relationships? How do you feel about relationships? This could be family, friends, however, you want business partners, however you want to think about it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:12

But I think something that sets me apart from well, two things that set me apart in relationships, different than other than most people. One is that I want I want what's best for you. And having had thousands of franchisees, thousands of employees, and my my goal is always that that to do what's best for you. What is best for me, when you know you can be my employee or my franchisee or my partner. That's wonderful. But at the end of the day, I want what's best for you. And so that that selflessness, I think, so I have that. But I also have this fanatical view that I have to do more for everyone else than they do for me. Like I told them about the Dunkin' Donut situation. I have to, I have to do, I can't let them give me coffee. I have to do something back. So last so last year I gave them a um Christmas tree of uh flowers. And then in Valentine's Day I gave them candy.

SPEAKER_00: 41:23

I love that. And so so does that go hold true for like your kids or any like everyone, everyone in my life.

SPEAKER_01: 41:31

If I meet if I meet you at dinner, I mean I gotta buy dinner.

SPEAKER_00: 41:37

You want to outgive everyone. I love that. That's my goal. I think that's incredible because I mean a lot of us just don't even realize a lot of us don't think like that because a lot of us are take, take, take, and we have scarcity, and there's not that abundance of like, no, let's give, let's overly give, let's see how we can support.

SPEAKER_01: 41:54

There's no, there's nothing as rewarding as giving.

SPEAKER_02: 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:58

And and yet two-thirds of Americans are are takers, not givers.

SPEAKER_00: 42:04

Really? Wow. I can see that. I mean, when you start to think about it, you start giving to people and you start seeing things, and you're like, oh, why don't they return the favor? And it's like, I shouldn't have even I you can't give with an expectation return anyway. You got to just give with what you have.

SPEAKER_01: 42:22

If you give with the expectation that they're going to be grateful, then you'll stop giving pretty quickly. Yeah, I've I've given so much to so many people, and so few people are, I feel adequately appreciate what I've done for them.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

Really? That makes me feel better. Because I mean, sometimes you give to people and you're like, really? Nothing, not not a care in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

It's a little bit blasphemy, but I feel just a little bit blasphemy, but I I kind of feel how God feels. I kind of under I think I understand a little bit about God feels. Yeah. You know, he first thing he did is is Adam and Eve, and they went over and ate the fruit. Right. There's no people are just ungrateful.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

Yeah.

unknown: 43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:18

So it's how do we flip the lights on for gratitude? And the last one's actually spirituality. So you bring that up. Uh what about a spirituality? How has that been present or not present in your life?

SPEAKER_01: 43:30

I can't say it any more clearly. There is no happiness on this planet without a belief in God.

SPEAKER_00: 43:39

Really? How did you how did you start when did that start for you? As a child, or just always, or always I've always understood or been grateful, since as long as I can remember.

SPEAKER_01: 44:01

But I didn't realize until right away, I didn't realize that there's no happy marriages, there's no happy anything. Happiness, anything else is sinking sand. Right. So there's no there's no joy in this planet. True joy without without without God. And and it I didn't realize that maybe until I was in my twenties or thirties.

SPEAKER_00: 44:30

Okay. And you're saying that because it wouldn't be possible, like none of this would none of this would be possible, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01: 44:35

Everything else is shallow. And I mean, you get a new car, you get a new boat. You know, I love, I love, um, if you want to understand that, then Steve Jobs died prematurely at about 62 and got a cancer, and one of the richest guys on the planet, right? And he's there and he said, you know, at the end of the day, well, just to make how much money I have. And I mean, it's it's the way you lived your life that and what you've done with your life that that matters, not not any material possessions. And you heard a lot that you go in and come out the same way, right? You're you're naked.

SPEAKER_00: 45:19

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean it's so true, and it's a great reminder hearing it from you that the material things are not the important things. It's the moments, it's the travel, it's the supporting others, it's the giving, it's the changing lives that really does matter that starts to change our own life after a while. Like, you know what I mean? You do enough of it, you start to change your own life.

SPEAKER_01: 45:40

It's there again, again, Jordan, there's nothing as rewarding as improving someone else's life.

SPEAKER_00: 45:48

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. And then one more question is how how do you how do you manage it all? How do how do you think about that? Because I know you have a good amount of stuff on your plate. How do you think about that? Um between the foundations, the companies, the family, the the the travel, it's how do you think about management of time?

SPEAKER_01: 46:08

Because that's a challenge in this sense that you know Peter Drucker, one of the greatest business authors, said um that people with great strengths have great weaknesses. And since I I have great strengths, some great strengths, that means I have great weaknesses. And he tells some stories in in the book, The Effective Executive. But um one of my greatest weaknesses is um lack of detail. So I have to surround myself with detailed people. So um I if when you made this appointment with me, you didn't make it with me, you made it with my person. Right. I can't do anything because I just know little detail. I have I the the closest people in my in my company are the most detailed because it just escapes me.

SPEAKER_00: 47:04

Yeah. No, absolutely. That makes so much sense. But the more we know our strengths, the more we know our weaknesses, and then we can cover for our weaknesses. And I actually know there was actually two people who accepted the meeting outside of you. Awesome. So there's more people. Like, but my point is that you have to have the right people around you, otherwise, you'll never know what you're doing. And you'll never, I mean, yeah, without the team, without it properly in place, everything falls. So, what how do you start to know your strengths and your weaknesses? What if there's someone listening right now and they're like, I don't really know what I'm good at, I don't know what I'm bad at, like, how how do you start to become aware of that?

SPEAKER_01: 47:41

Well, most of it's pretty obvious, right? I don't think so. And you know, someone asked me a month ago or two months ago, they were they were beginning to build their company. And there was just them. And who's the first person I hire? Well, I say, What are you good at? And if you're good at marketing and bad at accounting, you have you hire someone to do accounting. If you're good at accounting and bad at marketing, you I said you hire people that offset your strengths. And what you need what you need in companies is pretty obvious, right? Organizational. If you look at the Fortune 500 companies, the slots, the CFO, the CMO, the CTO, there's all these slots. And so you know you can't do everything, and you have to figure out, and what you generally are good at is what you like. Is the chicken or egg, right?

SPEAKER_02: 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:37

Right. So if I'm good at technology, I like it. And so it's good that I hire someone to do accounting and marketing and other things. So I think it it's pretty uh it should be pretty obvious to most people what their weaknesses are. But some people are some people are narcissistic and they think they have no weaknesses, which is crazy. If you don't know what your weaknesses are, then you're an idiot.

SPEAKER_00: 49:05

Yeah, I mean, you're you're explaining a lot of good things. And when I think about it, I think about usually wearing a hat. So like you put on a CFO hat, you put on the CEO hat, you put it on the COO, and you don't realize that by the end of the day, you've worn 27 hats. And which hat do you not want to wear ever again? Um, that's helped me think about it sometimes as well. So I appreciate that. John, yeah, you got you got something else to say?

SPEAKER_01: 49:31

You're exactly right. It's it should be obvious to you at the end uh pretty quickly. What and it it's nice because you like what you're good at. So you said it the right way. It's something you don't like to do, then you know you're not good at it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:48

Absolutely. John, you're you're incredible. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there any where can people find you or learn more about loyalty brands and yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 49:57

It's loyaltybrands.com. And you know, I have a book out there that tells the journey. Yes. And uh the the book is free if uh to your listeners if they go on there's the there they can go on to the website and get a free book.

SPEAKER_00: 50:12

Okay, amazing. I will uh I will make sure to put that all in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on, John. I appreciate it. It was my pleasure. Thank you.