Episode 17: Artist, Mickalene Thomas

Multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas is one the the most well know contemporary artists in the art scene today. She is a queer identified, African American woman working and residing in Brooklyn NY.  Her visual work examines ideas around femininity, beauty, race, sexuality, and gender. 

In this episode, Mickalene speaks about her complex relationship with her mother, who inspired and influenced her photography and paintings, and set a trajectory for her visual work, as well as personal recollections on her journey of self awareness, queer liberation and coming to terms with the past.

Mickalene Thomas's work is held in many collections, including, The Art Institute of Chicago, The Brooklyn Museum, The Guggenheim Museum, The Smithsonian American Art Museum, The Studio Museum of Harlem among many others. 

Photo: © Mickalene Thomas

Chapters

• 2:48 GROWING UP IN NEW JERSEY
• 6:40 MOVING TO PORTLAND, OREGON
• 17:19 RELATIONSHIP WITH MOTHER
• 33:37 COMING OUT
• 40:50 QUEERNESS AND ART PROCESS
• 45:49 WORKING AT THE QUEER BAR
• 50:27 PROGRESS OF LGBTQI COMMUNITY
• 56:49 LIZZO
• 1:02:19 EXHIBITIONS

Transcript

MICKALENE THOMAS-Sundays at Café Tabac: The PODCAST

[00:00:00] Wanda Acosta: Welcome to Sundays at Cafe Back, the podcast. This podcast series is an extension of our film's mission to firm and extol the courage, strength, and joy in our LGBTQ plus community. Through the preservation and sharing of our personal stories and the collective histories we live through and change. I'm your host, Wanda Acosta.

[00:00:32] In this episode, I am thrilled to welcome multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas Mickalene is one of the most well-known contemporary artists in the art scene today. She is a queer identified African American woman, working and residing in Brooklyn, New York. Her visual work examines ideas around femininity, beauty, race, sexuality, and gender.

[00:00:56] Mickalene Thomas's work is held in many collections, including the [00:01:00] Art Institute of Chicago, the Brooklyn Museum, the Guggenheim Museum, the Smithsonian American Art Museum, the Studio Museum of Harlem, among many others. Now, let's listen to Micheline Thomas. I am just absolutely so thrilled to welcome to the studio my dear friend and fantastic artist, Mickalene Thomas.

[00:01:25] She is one of the most prominent. African American female queer artist of this time and I'm just so happy to be able to chat with you today. Hi Mickalene good morning.

[00:01:38] Mickalene Thomas: Hi. Good morning. I'm so thrilled to be here, and honored that you invited me to your podcast. Thanks to have a conversation with you. 

[00:01:48] Wanda Acosta: I know, I mean, it's just so nice to be able to gather today and to gather period after what we've gone through with the pandemic.

[00:01:55] So, you know, it's really nice to be able to like sit with people and family. Mm-hmm. and extended families [00:02:00] and speaking of extended families and chosen families. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your family, like where did you grow up? 

[00:02:09] Yeah, um, I think I have a. Really unique combination of family members. I grew up in New Jersey, born in Camden, raised partly in Newark, New Jersey and East Orange. And then I moved to Portland, Oregon. But I lived in Jersey with my mother up until I was like, uh, 10, 11. And then went to live with my grandmother. And while living with my grandmother, I think that's when I started to express myself fully as a woman or a girl really attractive or loving other girls. 

[00:02:48] How old were you? How old were you when you moved in with your grandma? 

[00:02:52] I was probably about 10 or 11, so that would've been middle school [00:03:00] and, uh, lived with her and I just remember always infatuated with, you know, The cliche, your best friend or your best friend's friend. . Yeah. Or your brother's, you know, girlfriend or something.

[00:03:17] Uhhuh. Or your gym teacher? Yeah. Or your gym teacher. I never did the gym teacher thing though. Um, although I did play sports when I was in middle school, high school. I, I tell us, I did volleyball, played volleyball, and I was really on a junior varsity and varsity team for a track and field in cross country, and I loved track and field.

[00:03:37] And I think on track and field was really where I formalized my identity with other girls on the track and field that identified as being queer. Mm-hmm. , they didn't talk about it, but you got the sense. , there were two girls on the team who were girlfriends. Mm-hmm. . [00:04:00] And that was probably my first exposure with seeing it, but without it being spoken about.

[00:04:06] Mm-hmm. , you know, because no one really talked about it. I have a gay uncle who is very out, you know, he is now in his seventies, so he was very out and a little ostracized by the family. Mm-hmm. They weren't very supportive. Like I remember his brothers, my uncles, giving him a really hard time with his, uh, sort of femininity.

[00:04:36] Mm-hmm. and the way he carried himself, or how he spoke. And so he moved away from home. , like very young, and he lives in California. Mm-hmm. . And then I had a gay aunt who didn't become gay until after I think two marriages, my Aunt Jeanie, and she wasn't really out and with her partner until I was in my [00:05:00] twenties.

[00:05:00] Oh. Did you ever have like a sensibility of like her being different? I had a sensibility of her being different, but it was always like her friend . Mm-hmm. , you know, or quote lady friend, you know, ? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , of course, identifying it that way. . So for me, even though I grew up in the environment where there were people in my family as family members who were identifying as being gay or queer or lesbian, they never spoke about it.

[00:05:33] No one ever talked about it. , it wasn't something that was shared or welcomed in conversation. Mm-hmm. or embraced. So for me, when I started having feelings towards, uh, other women or other girls, I kept it to myself. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:54] Well that's natural. I mean, if's natural if you saw what was happening. Yeah, exactly. And your family, you were not going to [00:06:00] sway from, not from that. And was your family religious, like did were, was there like that component or was just..

[00:06:06] My grandmother was about witness and my mother practiced Buddhism. And so without me knowing, she was very much one who was much more accepting of gay lifestyle.

[00:06:21] But I still. comfortable as a young person to go and talk to her about it, cuz I didn't know how. And would you say that that also could be cultural? Uh, I think it was cultural within, I think African American, in the African American community. And that was my father's side. On my mother's side, they were Pentecostal.

[00:06:40] Mm mm Yeah. Mm. Ain't going there. Mm mm Exactly. Mm mm No, no, no , no, no, no, no, no. . So when I fell in love with my first girlfriend, I saw an opportunity for myself to leave New [00:07:00] Jersey. And, um, I left in the middle of high school with her. She was much older and I left to go to Portland, Oregon with her. And I finished my last year in high school there.

[00:07:16] Oh. And she and I lived together with her family and we didn't tell them that we were. Together, lady friend. I was lady friend, and eventually we got our own place. Once we got our own place is when I really started to immerse myself in the gay community and Portland, Oregon. Mm. I feel like Portland, Oregon is where I fully came out.

[00:07:42] Mm-hmm. , most of my friends were queer, identified, non-binary trans. We weren't using those terms. Mm-hmm. , it was just like either gay or lesbian . Right, right. You know, but that's what they were. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it was a really [00:08:00] enriching, beautiful, creative, talented, amazing. artist, community. Mm. Social, political as well.

[00:08:09] Mm-hmm. , that's where I got into politics as well. Mm-hmm. some activism with them. And this is like your senior year in high school? Senior year in high school. At this time I had already graduated and just was living. And then I applied to Portland State. Oh, okay. And studied pre-law in theater. Mm-hmm. . And so I was living what would've been known as sort of the downtown city of Portland.

[00:08:35] Mm-hmm. Southwest and Northwest Portland. And it was amazing, you know. And you were still with your girlfriend for a short while. And we separated after. Probably a few years living there. I was really growing apart and it was no reason she went back to Boston and I wanted to stay in Portland because I was really loving [00:09:00] who I was becoming and how I was growing and my independence.

[00:09:04] Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. and just like really blossoming in the community, you know, of the chosen family that I had. Right. So would you say that you are falling in love with your girlfriend? Was this like your first sort of My first love, love story? Yeah. My first love, my first allowed relationship.

[00:09:25] Relationship. My first, everything that I think there are certain people that come into your life that become conduits or sort of help transition you from one phase to the other. And I really believe that she came into my life as someone to bring me to a space for opportunity for myself. Mm. You know what I mean?

[00:09:52] Mm-hmm. , like, I really think she was that person for me. Right. To allow you to actually embrace who you were. Embrace who I was. [00:10:00] Discover something new, break away from some of the chaos that was in my family. My mother at the time during that, was struggling also with her own addiction. I wasn't living with my brother.

[00:10:14] We were living separate. It was a lot of family dynamics going on. . Mm-hmm. , a lot of trauma . Right, right. And so, so going to Portland with your love Yeah. You know, took you away from a lot of that reality and all of that trauma that was happening and allowed you to sort of like discover who you were.

[00:10:31] Exactly. To discover who I was and to become. Mickey or Micheline mm-hmm. and just see the world differently. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. and learn and just blossom and become a creative person. Mm-hmm. . Um, at that time I was really interested in law. I was working at Davis Wrights Tremaine, which was a law firm there.

[00:10:55] They did corporate in litigation, and I was going [00:11:00] to school and I was supporting myself. Yeah. I was living a really mature life. Yeah. You know, . Yeah, yeah, yeah. And living well, right. And living really well, and like eating well and involved and active in doing things. Mm-hmm. and around incredible people, thinkers.

[00:11:21] Mm-hmm. , creatives, musicians, and really art cultivators. Mm-hmm. that helped me define who I was. Right. You know, they became a huge foundation for me because I started. Experiencing and seeing if you decide or make decisions in doing things, how you can make those things possible. Right. You were in pre-law.

[00:11:44] Mm-hmm. , and also theater arts, as you mentioned. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So how did those two things sort of come together? Because you're in one realm, but then you also have this whole creative thing going on and a posse of activists and creative people. Oh my gosh. It was, it was like . It was a rollercoaster and it was very [00:12:00] complex because I was trying to figure it out.

[00:12:02] You know, I had one foot and sort of something that seemed to be a lifestyle of stability, and then the other foot that seemed unpredictable, you know, like the unknown, which is the creative field. So for me, I was really trying to figure out, because I wanted stability in my life. Mm-hmm. , and so I thought that makes sense.

[00:12:25] Yeah. Thinking about going into law seemed. viable. It seemed practical. It seemed like a good direction. I enjoyed the process of it, but the more I engage with the creative community, they kind of pulled me in that direction, which I didn't know mm-hmm. , but that my life was pulling me more in that direction.

[00:12:52] Mm-hmm. . And the reason why I did the combination of prolonged theater arts, I was encouraged to do that because I think a lot of lawyers [00:13:00] do. Take some theater background for speaking and developing tone and sort of engaging and creating drama. Mm-hmm. and narrative around storytelling. Right. When you're in the courtroom.

[00:13:13] And so they do go hand in hand in some, cuz it is, if you think about sort of that space, it's very performance, it's very performative. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and theatrical. So that was the idea behind it. And I also had a great love for theater growing up in New Jersey. Even the times that I lived with my mother, we spent a lot of time coming to New York.

[00:13:37] Mm-hmm. and seeing theater on Broadway. I remember her bringing me to see the Tap Dances kid on Broadway, . Oh wow. That's wonderful. You know, and like all of these other performances. Yeah. And so it was a rural thing for us and my mother was very much into. acting in theater. Mm-hmm. , she, when she was stable, she was part of a theater group [00:14:00] in New Jersey.

[00:14:01] It was a part of our world, and so theater made sense for me. Mm-hmm. , even now as I become more active here in New York, theater is calling me again, like, oh, I've been really excited to be a, uh, participant by producing, I did my first co-production with For Colored Girls. Mm-hmm. , which is very exciting.

[00:14:27] That's exciting. I was wonderful and you won all kinds of awards, all kinds of awards and so, so good. And I'm getting back into it. Yeah. Like, I really love the process and I was like, you know what? I love theater, so it's one of the things my daughter and I do. It's our thing every weekend. I have her, every other week I co-parent to see theater.

[00:14:47] Mm-hmm. a musical, a drama or a dance performance. And I know that she loves it so much and she loves it. I mean, and New York is so great for her. That's what I love. New York, it's just like, yeah. It's just, and how fortunate to be [00:15:00] able to do that, you know, to see those shows and to get inspired by all of that.

[00:15:04] Just, just like in a way, like your mom did for you. Mm-hmm. , whether you weren't so aware of it at the time, but your mom sounds like, uh, and I know that she was a fascinating woman mm-hmm. despite some of her struggles. And I wanted to hear a little bit more about, you know, that relationship, cuz I know that she is such an important part of your life.

[00:15:23] Yeah. And in, in the work that you have done mm-hmm. , uh, including the film. Yeah. That is based on your mom. Tell me a little bit about what growing up with her was like and what influence she has had in your life. And then, You shifted to your grandma. Mm-hmm. , and I wanna hear what happened when they finally recognized that you were queer

[00:15:46] The queer Mickey . My mother has always been an inspiration, even during our estrangement. And so [00:16:00] it wasn't until I think she visited me in Portland, I decided to come back to the East coast. That I really recognize the importance of who she was to me, because despite, as we talked about her struggles, she had such a fierce outlook on life, you know, and always, Made me understand that you're going to have obstacles.

[00:16:35] There're going to be these things in life that happen, but you don't allow those obstacles to determine who you are. You know, because they don't determine who you are. And that because you go through some of these struggles, you can come out of them, you can persevere. Mm-hmm. , there are, there is another side to it.

[00:16:56] You're not defined by them and you shouldn't allow yourself to be [00:17:00] defined by them. And I think that was part of her Buddhist practice. Right, right, right. And because of her Buddhist practice that you can see her heart first, besides everything else that was going around. And I think that was also how she was able to mask her addiction for so long.

[00:17:19] Mm-hmm. , she was one of those, what you call like a working addict, right. Where it took so long to catch up to her. because she was able to hide it, conceal it, somehow. Conceal it. Mm-hmm. . But to go to my connection with her, I think I idolized her when she walked into a room, the room lit up. Mm. People smiled.

[00:17:48] She was tall. Six, one, beautiful, caring, empathetic, generous, lovable, [00:18:00] and just infectious. Mm-hmm. infectious. Her like her laugh, like people just, she was a magnet. Mm-hmm. , she was a magnet. Like she could sit in one spot and people just gravitated towards her all the time, you know, everywhere she went.

[00:18:19] Amazing. We walk down the street, we go to a mall. We're at a theater where they always thought she was somebody. She just had such presence and stature. Right. Oh, her presence and stature. And she loved being tall. Yeah. . She loved. She would always tell me, don't slouch. Be proud of being tall. Don't slouch. Be proud of being tall.

[00:18:42] My mother loved being tall. I love it. She loved it. That was her pride. She's like, I am a tall woman. Yeah. And I'm embracing it. . Uh, exactly. Because some women, you know, that are super tall, get self-conscious about that and very, my mother was not self-conscious about her height at all. She loved it. Once I started [00:19:00] to see her as the person that she was separate from being my mother and me being her daughter mm-hmm.

[00:19:08] once I looked at her as her being her own person mm-hmm. as a human being and understanding that what she was going through and some of the decisions she made had nothing to do with me. . Mm-hmm. . But it took me a while and also through my own Buddhist practice, because I started practicing Buddhism again, to accept that she is her own person.

[00:19:33] She's on her own journey. Mm. I'm a part of that, but it is not about me. Right, right, right. That's still so important. Yeah. Especially in mother-daughter relationships, and once I looked at her from that viewpoint, our relationship, I kind of let, let go of everything I thought she did to me, which she didn't do anything.

[00:19:55] You know what I mean? It's like we were holding onto these. False [00:20:00] situations because we only know one part of the story. Mm-hmm. as a child. Right. You only know one narrative and you only see one perception because that's all you know from a child. So you create these things, your mind of how things were and what and how they should be and what they, yeah.

[00:20:19] And what really happened. And they didn't. And so that's why I started using her in my art, photographing her, and it brought us closer. Did you start photographing her because you started seeing her in a different way? Or you wanted to see her in? Well, I was, first, I was encouraged by my photo teacher to photograph her Uhhuh

[00:20:39] And uh, once I did that, we started having conversations. I realized that I didn't really know my mother. Huh. You know what I mean? I realized I knew her. As my mom. Right. But I didn't know her as the person she was as a, as a woman, as a woman, as an individual. And I wanted to get to know that [00:21:00] person. That's great.

[00:21:01] So during our photo shoots, I would ask her questions and she would share. And it was beautiful. And the more I learned about her, the more I realized that she and I are mirrored. Mm. Right. And that, as I stated before, her struggles were her struggles. Mm-hmm. . And then it really validated and explained some of the decisions she made.

[00:21:35] Mm-hmm. . And then I was okay with her decisions. I said, yeah, I That makes sense. That makes sense. I see. Now I accept it. Huh. What a wonderful way to actually come to these conclusions, you know, as you're a practicing your. Process, creative process, but then also you're both in this sort of positions of visibility and vulnerability being [00:22:00] in front of the camera and you as a daughter asking and learning.

[00:22:03] Yeah. And embracing and reestablishing a relationship of love with this person, right? Yeah. That you're also learning. Yeah. And discovering more about, and I, and I, and that comes through in the images. It comes through in the images. And I knew I needed to get through that process for myself in order for me to love myself.

[00:22:28] Mm-hmm. in order for me to see myself. Mm-hmm. , I was very closed. I was very, very sort of withdrawn for many years. Mm-hmm. And I didn't share in myself because I didn't want anyone to know about me, cuz the share myself was to talk about my mother's addiction and all of this, and the trauma and the, and the chaos.

[00:22:49] I didn't want anyone to know that up. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So once I became a practicing artist, I realized that I can escape that. Mm-hmm. , that I needed to deal [00:23:00] with those things. And one of the ways that I could deal with that is through my art, right, is through the making of my art. Creating the images that I was making to see myself in self-portraits, to see myself in portraiture, to see myself in the other women to start photographing family and friends, to really start looking at them and myself and my world to start dealing with these issues.

[00:23:25] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so through my mother, I became sort of whole Mm mm-hmm. . And then that's when a film came when I, once I realized she was sick. My mother, first of all, all her life, she was born with sickle cell anemia. Oh wow. She was of a family of six siblings. She and her second to oldest brother Richard, both were born with sickle cell anemia.

[00:23:55] Mm. And they both were the two who suffered [00:24:00] and had pain all their life. Right, right, right, right. And said, think about that, that my mother was constantly in pain, daily pain. Yeah. When I started thinking about that, that here it was this woman who lit up a room who had this life condition that was so high, but she was in constant pain and also internalized it.

[00:24:24] Right. Didn't, mm-hmm. really and internalized it because she wanted to give a different, you know, exterior. Mm-hmm. of herself. Of herself. But imagine what that felt like for her and why she maybe made some of the decisions that she made. Yeah. And so once I started really connecting, The dots with all of these things that she was going through as her person, who am I to judge?

[00:24:52] Mm-hmm. as the child, as the daughter, you know, like did she ever speak about why she leaned towards [00:25:00] Buddhism? That was one of our main sort of connections and I feel like a gift that she gave me because with she provided for my brother and I was this community and this environment to understand and see people in a very different way and to accept people unconditionally in different forms.

[00:25:23] Hmm. And to be around a diverse group of people at a young age. Mm-hmm. growing up in New Jersey, you know, my mother had always. , Asian friends, Japanese Indian. It was just like the house was always filled with all types of people. And you went to a Buddhist meeting, you would sit on a floor with all types of people.

[00:25:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. You know? So I would run around and just do this with all types of people, and it was just amazing to grow up that way. Yeah. And she talked about Buddhism. And Buddhism for her was 
[00:26:00] this way of centering herself. Mm. And also a way for her to deal with what she was dealing with internally.

[00:26:06] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Like she needed that. Yeah. Yeah. And also to deal with growing up some of the things that she dealt with with abuse and all of this, like, she really, I think, needed that foundation. Mm-hmm. fundamentally. Mm-hmm. to, and that compassion for herself, compassion for herself, and to know that. in this lifetime, you could really transform.

[00:26:35] Mm-hmm. yourself. And I think she tried to do that. Mm-hmm. and she did that on, on many, many levels for herself. So when she was sick, I, you know, and she became amused in my work for many years. Um, there's a huge body of work that is described as Mama Bush. Mm-hmm. . What I didn't know that I was doing for her 
[00:27:00] was giving her this platform of agency mm-hmm.

[00:27:03] And I didn't really learn that until I did the film, until a documentary. And one of the reasons why I did the film wasn't for the sake of making a film or a documentary about my mother. It was really me trying to figure out another medium or tool to express a sense of portraiture. Mm-hmm. a way of looking at her and thinking about her.

[00:27:27] Providing this context of who this woman was behind this image. Mm-hmm. through art. Right. I wanted to tell her story and I knew when she was very sick at this time, that she couldn't come into my studio to photograph and dress up. So I had to think about another medium that was accessible. Mm-hmm. that I can bring to her.

[00:27:49] Right. There was one day I was at her house and with sickle cell and other internal health issues that my mother [00:28:00] had. She also had rheumatoid arthritis. Oh, it's so painful as well. Yeah, very painful. So her bones in her hands really started deform. Mm-hmm. very early on, she had like a really severe case of rheumatoid arthritis.

[00:28:19] So when I would go home to her house in Jersey to visit her, . I was helping her put on her makeup one day. I can tell she was a little withdrawn. Mm-hmm. a little sad. And I asked her, I said, what's going on? Like, why, what's, I said, are you okay? Like, talk to me, what's happening? And she looked at me and said, you don't find me beautiful anymore.

[00:28:42] I guess I'm not your muse anymore. And I said, what do you mean? She goes, because you haven't photographed me. You haven't asked me do anything. You, you haven't asked me to sit. You haven't asked it for you sit to sit for you or do any of this. And I was like, oh my gosh, mom. I had no idea. I didn't ask because I didn't [00:29:00] think you would want to.

[00:29:01] Right, right. So I had all these assumptions in my head that she wouldn't want me to photograph her in this way, in that condition, in her condition. I said, would you like me to photograph you? And she goes, well, I don't know. Not, I don't know. She's like, I don't know, I just wanna still be a part of your process.

[00:29:18] Mm-hmm. . Mm. So I was like, let me figure out a new way. of creating portraits for you around you. And so I think it came to me in a dream, actually. I was trying to really think about the best way to do it. Mm-hmm. , and I saw it in my dream. I just went back to the moments when I was photographing her and the conversations that we were having, but they weren't documented.

[00:29:46] Right. I was like, wow. That was, you know, I was remembering that throughout the years, wanting I would have her in my studio and photograph her and do all this, and we would have these great conversations and how, but you didn't, they weren't recorded component [00:30:00] to that documented, and I thought, wow, why don't I just go and interview her?

[00:30:07] Yeah. That's why it was three years, like, I'm just going to interview her . I'm just gonna get all of what we were talking about on tape. Right, right, right. With my very cheap high definition video camera. Right. . I love it. So that's how it started. And then it was great and she loved it, but what I was capturing was something so much greater and so much more profound.

[00:30:30] Mm-hmm. , I allowed her to fully tell her story. Mm-hmm. to fully share. I think at this point we knew she was dying. Right. And she knew this is my voice. Right. And you can preserve her legacy. You can preserve her. Yeah. And it was beautiful. And then I shared it with a friend who happened to be a producer, who saw what I documented [00:31:00] and loved it and said, do you think we can reshoot some.

[00:31:06] do you think your mother would be willing to redo? Mm-hmm. , some of it. Mm-hmm. to be reshot. Cuz she said Mickalene, what you have here is truly incredible. Mm-hmm. And I said, well, let me ask her. And so we did, we pretty much just reshot . Oh, she and she loved it, I'm sure. The whole thing. That's Wonder And it's a great film and, and, and it was so organic and just natural wasn't forced.

[00:31:31] And I never looked at it as a film that was going to go anywhere further than the Brooklyn Museum. Mm-hmm. . It was really meant as a creative process. Um, and a gift to both of you. Yeah. It was for me, just a part of the art and our journey and our collaboration and documenting that. And a way for me to tell my story through my mother's lens.

[00:31:56] Mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. , because there was a lot that I [00:32:00] never shared with anyone. Right. That came out that finally. now, and I can let that wall down right, right now and I can really allow myself to be exposed now. And so I think my art shifted in that way. And I think I grew up mm-hmm. in a lot of ways.

[00:32:18] Once I felt like this burden was like lifted off, I felt freer. It's was such a process between beginning with the Portraitures and then culminating with this documentary of her life story at the end of her life. Mm-hmm. , which then was like, you know, a closure, but also like this incredible opening and release and liberation for you.

[00:32:41] Oh, absolutely. And it was like also similar to coming out. I think we have different moments in our lives how we come out. Mm-hmm. if we allow ourselves to. Right. And I think that's what aging is about as well. I think that's what maturing is [00:33:00] about, is that allow yourself to blossom. Mm-hmm. . and change and transform.

[00:33:07] Mm-hmm. that there's these layers like being peeled back like a, you just continue to sort of shed them, you know, . Yeah. And open up, allowing yourself to be your authentic self. The authentic self is very crucial. And that's how it was for me coming out too. When my mother, when I told my grandmother , um, I remember going back to her and said, I'm, I think I'm in love.

[00:33:37] And my grandmother knew at that point and she said, oh, is it your friend Eunice ? I was like, uh, yes. And I said, I'm gonna move with her to Portland. And she looked at me very widely. I similar to what you just did, . And [00:34:00] she goes, who other you should go. My grandmother knew. She said, you should go. She, there was no restraint or drama around it.

[00:34:12] It was just like, okay, well how can we help you get there? And she was just more concerned about like my stability and sort of wellbeing and who was gonna take care of me on the safety, the safe, like all of that. And so that was her concern. My grandmother was, ugh, incredible woman. Just her grounding and awareness of the world and even what she's been through just was like, no, you just, this is your life.

[00:34:37] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And this is your maternal grandmother? My paternal, paternal. Oh, okay. Yeah. I live with my paternal grandmother. Mm-hmm. , my brother, lived with my maternal grandmother. She's, uh, incredible. She ended up living till 98. Oh, wow. She outlived. Five of her kids. She has six. I have an uncle that's still alive, [00:35:00] but she outlived all of her children except one.

[00:35:03] She outlived my mother. She outlived my uncle Danny, my aunt Francine, my Aunt Barbara, and my uncle Richard. That's amazing. Wow. My mother died before she did. Mm. Did your mom have a good relationship with her mom? Oh, yes. She had a beautiful relationship with her mom. She and my mother were very close.

[00:35:28] Their birthdays were a few days apart. They were best friends. They talked every day. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It was because her relationship with her mother, one of the reasons why she never moved out of New Jersey, she didn't wanna be far away from her. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, and when she had opportunity to, you know, great opportunities to move to like the West Coast and.

[00:35:55] or the Midwest and other places, and she didn't take those opportunities because she [00:36:00] just couldn't separate, separate our mm-hmm. . Just the thought of not seeing her mother Yeah. Was too devastating for her. Yeah. Yeah. They were so close. Yeah. And seeing that relationship made me realize how fortunate I was, because I know a lot of queer kids and L G B T I As and identifying don't have mm-hmm.

[00:36:28] the support, don't have the love the foundation with their parents. Absolutely. So I felt very fortunate once I did come out to my mother, one of the things that she said to me that was really challenging for her was that, She felt she failed me as a mother because she didn't know that I was queer. And that had she known when I was a kid, she [00:37:00] would've done things differently.

[00:37:01] She would've protected me a little more. She would've embraced me a little more had she known. Mm-hmm. , that she just wished that what I was going through. Mm-hmm. , and maybe that's what was some of the struggle between that emotionally she would've protected you, she would've protected, would've embraced you in a different way, had she in a different way.

[00:37:21] Yeah. And she was very sad about that loss. Huh? That's kind of beautiful on the way. Yeah. When she told me that, she's like, I love you. I just feel like there were so much that she missed up had, had I known how to identify a queer child. Hmm. I would've identified some of the emotions and the sensibilities and all of that, and what you understood.

[00:37:46] and direct and facilitate, basically. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Because parenting is about facilitating Right. And providing for your child the best and identifying and seeing within your child what they're going through emotionally and sort of [00:38:00] leading them in the right direction. Did she feel like that she wasn't there for you to be supportive in what may have been your process of identity?

[00:38:08] My struggles. Yourself identifying? Mm-hmm. understanding why I would, I mean, I would withdraw on certain situations. I'm a extrovert, introvert person, and so for her, when I would withdraw, it was a very severe Mm. You know, and I was withdrawing because I was very insecure about what these emotions were.

[00:38:34] Mm-hmm. and I didn't know how to express them. Right. And I didn't feel like I had anyone in my environment to share them with. Right. And so that, really messed me up as a young adult. Mm-hmm. , because I just still didn't know how to express myself in that way. Right. When I. issues or things triggered, I just sort of went in.

[00:38:56] Right. I think many of us did that. Mm-hmm. , you know, [00:39:00] if you didn't really have anyone to be able to share that, that would a understand or was like-minded. I mean, what else would you do? You know? Yeah. You feel isolated, right? Yeah. You just kind like, what's wrong with me? Keep it to yourself. I don't know what these feelings are.

[00:39:13] Mm-hmm. , who do I talk to about this? . And so that's what I got into my activities in sports and just hung out at home and read books and looked at movies. Mm-hmm. just watched like, oh, the movies are great. Oh my gosh. The movies and, and when I would talk to my family, I would always say, when I grow up, I'm going to go to Europe.

[00:39:34] I'm going to do this. And they would laugh at me. They would look, they were like, she don't know nothing about no Europe. Yeah. She thinks she all that I know. Who, who, who does she know who went to Europe? . She's talking. Oh yeah, she's going to Paris. Uhhuh, . And now look . I would say that all the time. I was just like, you'll see when I grow up I'm gonna, first's thing I'm doing, I'm just gonna go to Europe.

[00:39:56] I love it. Like who, you know, in Europe, it's like, I don't even know how to [00:40:00] get there, but I'm gonna make it . And then you moved to Portland, not Paris, but Portland. Portland and, and, and discovered. Um, and, and I remember even when I was in Portland, my first time going to London and all of that. Mm-hmm. , you know, with a friend who moved there and just like that journey and just like, wow.

[00:40:17] Right, right. You know what I mean? And then when I came back, it just felt like I grew that much more and I felt that much taller. I felt that much more braver I and more confident. Right. And just encouraged. Right. And just like, okay, anything's possible. And . And how do you think, I mean, looking back, how do you think that finally embracing your queerness, having cohorts that were, you know, queer being around creative people falling in love, how do you think that that ultimately influence your trajectory?

[00:40:50] And how does queerness and being a black queer female artist. Has informed the creative process and your work? No, I think [00:41:00] all of that is an extension of who I am, and I think the cohorts that I was supported by engaged with and learned from when I was in Portland were incredible. My friends were like Thomas Lauderdale from the Pink Martini, like we were friends prior to him becoming part of Pink Martini and watching him, which we love.

[00:41:28] Yeah. And watching him sort of develop that concept and sort of watching him play and going to his concerts and being around, I was around some incredible talent. Mm-hmm. . So how could I not move forward? Mm-hmm. , how could I not be inspired by that? Right. . Right, right, right. You know, and so. , it was who they were.

[00:41:54] That sort of provided the context for me early. Mm-hmm. of [00:42:00] what was possible and what I could do, and who also encouraged me. Like they were so supportive. While I was in Portland, I started these oil pastel drawings and it was my friend Patrick Abbey, who's an amazing painter who traveled all over the world and exhibited, you know, X, Y, Z, and was living in New York and did GaN and all this.

[00:42:20] And he came back who encouraged me to show them who encouraged me to go to art school. So it was like these people who provided like, yeah, McLean, you can do this. Right? Right. And you should . Right. You know, and it's my friend Christopher Stark who. When he came to New York and did an internship with Nan Golden.

[00:42:39] I remember that. Wow. He came to New York and did an internship with Nan Goldin and came back on fire. Right. You know, and like, and, and a better photographer, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , and who dragged me to see the Carrie Mae Weems show at Portland Art Museum. You know what I mean? Like it was life changing individuals.

[00:42:56] Mm-hmm. who propelled me, who [00:43:00] pushed me forward. So that cohort for me, they're everything. Mm-hmm. , they're everything to who I've have become, because it was through that journey and process and being involved with them in their environment and watching them, discovering myself that I became an artist.

[00:43:25] Yeah. The importance of community, the importance of community and Sharon and even my good friend, the late Will n who. While we're living in Portland was activists. Mm-hmm. , he was so non-binary. He was the first male that I knew who self-identified as before it was a they or them. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , you know,

[00:43:53] Right, right. You know, they weren't using those terms, but he was embracing that [00:44:00] fully and physically, mentally and emotionally. Mm-hmm. . And so he was very involved with the Noah nine campaign that was in Portland. Very involved in queer awareness and activism and Portland who got me involved. We did a uh, sort.

[00:44:19] Silent vigil around the Portland Square downtown for those who were dying of aids. Yeah. Yeah. Like it was just like we were marching, we were doing, we had these contingencies, we were doing all of that. And that was because of Will who unfortunately died himself of aids. Yeah. You know, we had to go back home to Walla Walla Washington and unfortunately for him, his family who was in denial, cut him off from his chosen family.

[00:44:48] Mm-hmm. , so we weren't able to, you know, say goodbye to him. Yeah. It's terrible. But, so I grew up in Portland and became who I am, and [00:45:00] although it was very beautiful, I lost a lot of friends as well. Mm-hmm. , who are with me. , I saw the effect. Yeah. of AIDS. Yeah. You know, it was devastating. I wasn't here in New York, but I was in Portland and it was still spreading.

[00:45:15] Oh, it was still happening. . It was everywhere, you know? And so when I came back to New York to go to Pratt Act, I wasn't sure how to tap into the same type of community because it was so rich. And even though it was smaller, it was so powerful. Right. And I was so involved, and so part of doing that was really working with you,

[00:45:49] Like I really want it to be just, you know, when I think back now after, you know, learning more and more about your. and I think [00:46:00] back of you working with us at the bar. Mm-hmm. while going to school at the same time. Mm-hmm. and the discipline. A also recognizing that you needed to be around a queer community.

[00:46:15] Mm-hmm. , and that was a way for you to just sort of surround yourself in that. It was coming back and, and that was really the only time I went out . And that was the only time he went out. Cause he had that time. Exactly. I was so embarrassed. The same. I did like and I only went to your bars like I , like Wonder Bar.

[00:46:33] This, I just went around. So when I did go out, I didn't go out to any bar. You, you're like, well why would you, you had everything right there. Exactly. I did. And it was great. And that, and just seeing that community and seeing that, you know, the, the friendship and the, the family and just like the regulars and just learning.

[00:46:53] But like, I loved it. Yeah. It was everything for me. I loved working there. I loved coming. It was just [00:47:00] like, I needed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I needed that and so I needed to find that. I was like, I gotta find a space where I can just be immersed. Mm-hmm. in the environment I can be surrounded by. I can just look, I can be sort of this, you know, voyeur in a way.

[00:47:16] Just see this world of people and women and identify, and then I just loved it. Right. Right. I love the opportunity and I love that I was a part of it and I love the history of it and just everything you were all doing. Mm-hmm. that I felt so privileged and so happy and excited. Yeah. To be a part of that journey and that legacy.

[00:47:38] Yeah. And that sort of, Fun and adventure. I mean, had good times. I, I mean I, it was like one of the places I loved going to work. . . It was good times. It was so much fun. Yeah. And it was such a family there too. Yeah. You know, when we talk about not only within the staff mm-hmm. , but the people that came every week, [00:48:00] or ev every day or you know, it really was a moment where, you know, queer spaces really had a hold.

[00:48:11] Yeah. You know, where there was so available. Right. And we had options and we would gather mm-hmm. and we would meet and we would laugh. Yeah. And we would tell stories and we would cry and we would escape. Exactly. Or we would, you know, whatever it was that you needed to do in that safe space. Yeah. For however long you were there.

[00:48:31] And just thinking about like all of the incredible talent and women that walk through that door. Mm-hmm. , you know, just. For me, just like I just would be in awe and just like wiping the table, just like smiling and looking sex. Susan Sontag. Exactly. I'm just like, oh my gosh. Yeah. , you know, just going by taking her glass and being polite and like smiling and, you know, and Right.

[00:48:56] Assisting and providing just like [00:49:00] all of, you know, the best support. Mm-hmm. , you know, so many, I had so many talented, creative, beautiful, uh, people. Mm-hmm. in New York mm-hmm. at that time. And to me, you know, that was a huge, uh, boost for me, you know, gave me a lot of confidence. Mm-hmm. and just like in ways of like, okay, now I can really not be shy about like, approaching women because I never was really good at that.

[00:49:30] I, I. , I'm not . Um, it's like, um, embarrassing to say that most of the, my relationships have been with women approaching me. . Right? . If you wait for me to approach you, it's gonna take a very long time. hear that ladies. I'm very slow with like, making moves and uh, but while you were picking up a glass and, and squeezing your way through that narrow [00:50:00] passageway at Starlight, you get some phone numbers.

[00:50:02] Yep, I do. I got some phone numbers. . I didn't always operate on 'em, where as I should. There's some that I let slip by me that I was just like, ah, I should have called her. . . Uh, what do you think about the progress, right, that the lgbtq i plus community has made in the years since, and also sadly, the demise of, um, queer spaces?

[00:50:27] I think when you think about like all of the queer spaces, or the progress that we've made. It's amazing when you think about like, um, creative spaces like TV and film, what you see on those platforms, and you think about the politics and ways in which we are integrating into those spaces becoming senators or governors mm-hmm.

[00:50:53] and like how we're sort of being able to occupy these spaces because we really need to mm-hmm. . Absolutely. [00:51:00] In order for things to change. There's still so much work to do just recently when you think about the people that were just killed and Colorado Springs, you know, as their only Right space, right. Safe space in that particular community.

[00:51:17] Mm-hmm. tragic. tragic, and I think it's even here in the city that there's a limit. Like we just need to figure out how to come together and support each other with these spaces financially. Mm-hmm. collectively to make them work and to make them stay. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , and I think doing so is for us to be involved and integrate on particular boards locally.

[00:51:52] mm-hmm. , yes. You know? Yes. Yes. To start very local, within your government, so that way these laws [00:52:00] that pass, that say, you know, no dancing here, or cabaret law, whatever they may be, that shift in sort of Right. These very, um, safe spaces for us. We can actually create them and have them on our own. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:16] Mm-hmm. . So we're not necessarily just like, The renters of Right. But we're the owners of Exactly. So that we don't have to be beholden to the economics of the city and other cities. Mm-hmm. that make it prohibitive. That make it prohibitive. And because there are a lot of us that are financially stable mm-hmm.

[00:52:36] So how do we collectively shift and change these communities? Mm-hmm. , I always think about like, is it possible? Can we come together and like, build on like real estate mm-hmm. and sort of neighborhoods mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and sort of grow in that way and, and community. Cuz we constantly shifted out. You think, you look at where Chelsea is today and now it's no longer Chelsea, it's [00:53:00] Hell's Kitchen.

[00:53:00] Right. You know? Right, right. And the reason why those shifts have been made is because we're not owning mm-hmm. sort of mm-hmm. the real estate we're not a part of. Right. Because once you know, you move or someone sadly, you know, with the AIDS crisis, the West Village and Chelsea's mm-hmm. , uh, gentrified enormously because those apartments and those places were.

[00:53:18] vacant, and then it just kept escalating and escalating. You know, you mentioned before made me think about, you know, when we talk about queer space, you know, we're, or at least I'm, I was referring to physical, queer space. Mm-hmm. , but, you know, we are taking space in other ways, whether that is with, you know, visual arts and politics and other areas.

[00:53:45] Right. But I guess what I should reference to is community. Mm-hmm. space, right? Mm-hmm. , because I think that while they're all kinds of ways to engage Yeah. Whether you're digitally [00:54:00] engaging Yeah. On, you know, social media or through apps or whatever it is, that you find a way of kind of meeting like-minded people.

[00:54:09] There's nothing like having a face-to-face. Side by side gesture. Uh oh, absolutely. You know? Absolutely. Recognizing that you get, when you're in a physical space with other people, you know, and I think other people that are similar Yeah. And that are going through or understand what you're going through mm-hmm.

[00:54:33] you know, um, without always speaking about it, it's just like-minded or sort of based on experiences or based on that community. Mm-hmm. , for me, it's very important. I think I have developed that strength or that sense of community. Sometimes it becomes a little disillusioned, , and dismantled and shift [00:55:00] when your relationships change.

[00:55:02] Mm-hmm. . And that always makes me sad because you think the community's strong and you think it's just like you still have the support. Right. But I really glad that I have a. community of friends that have been part of my community for many years. Mm-hmm. , and I've learned as I've become mature that it's okay for that community to shift.

[00:55:27] Right. And sometimes I've also recognized that I've overlooked people who were a part of my community all along, and now they're starting to sort of say, Hey, we're here. Mm-hmm. , we're over here. Right. Right. You know, like, who's your tribe and what's your tribe of people? Mm-hmm. . And that your tribe can ebb and flow and they should ebb and flow.

[00:55:54] I mean, I love my community of friends, some of 'em I've known for over 20, 25 years. And [00:56:00] it's beautiful to be able to have them as a support, but also just the. creative peers. Mm-hmm. as well. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I think that's what's so great about being an artist and also being queers. Like, I feel like it's like , but if you're a combination, then you're really fierce.

[00:56:26] Yes. You know? You know what I mean? It's because you're really in touch, I think, with yourself and a different level than most people. You know? And you navigate the world in a different way. In a different way. You do. And you, I feel like you already have sort of your antennas and sort of your, your inside your viewpoint is sort of much more expansive.

[00:56:49] You just have a sense of navigating the world that you could sort of be in touch with, and I just love it. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I just feel very fortunate that I wouldn't [00:57:00] change anything. I love being queer. I love being black. And I love being an artist, , you know, so it's interesting. I was just watching the Lizzo mm-hmm.

[00:57:15] documentary. Mm-hmm. on HBO o and uh, who she is as a person and how she embrace herself, her body, sort of being an activist and a spokesperson and all of these ways, and just her talent. I don't know. I just feel like they're people that come into the world that you can learn from. Hmm. For me, that I've never really thought about her, but I'm thinking about her more for some reason.

[00:57:49] Mm. Because I felt like she's so powerful. That's great. And that she's just like, Sort of beginning of really showing us what she's capable of and [00:58:00] who she is and who she is. And I was just that, that's, I'm so grateful for her, you know? Yeah, me too. Just be herself, own herself when like no holds barred. And she's talented.

[00:58:11] And talented. That is a great documentary. I'll have, see, you have to watch that you, I mean, watch that today. It's really incredible and she's so raw and vulnerable at every moment. And so giving and generous and just loving and she's always been that way. And strong. And strong and you know, she gets backlash, man, and she Oh no, has to be so strong.

[00:58:34] I was like, you know what? When I start feeling certain word, I'm gonna think about Lizzo . Right. But she just gave so much encouragement and. , you know, and it was for her people. And it was like really thinking about like becoming the person and the woman, the artist and the musician, because there was no one that looked like her.

[00:58:59] Mm. [00:59:00] Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. . And so being reminded of that, right, right. Is that if you are not finding it, become it. Exactly. . Exactly. If it's not there, become it. Mm-hmm. be, do and do be. Mm-hmm. , , you know, a hundred percent agree. You know, and so that's what I took from that documentary is that, you know, if you in your world don't have it, then become and make it.

[00:59:27] Mm-hmm. , be the person that you want to see in the world. Become that person. Don't wait and don't wait. And so I love her for that. Like I was just like, have so much gratitude and glad that I. watched it. Mm-hmm. Because I didn't know that it existed and I was just, you know, streaming and looking and thought, oh, let me watch this.

[00:59:51] Oh, I'll have to catch that. No, but it's beautiful and I'm interested in, uh, stories. Mm-hmm. And, you know, biography and [01:00:00] individuals of how they see their world and how they become, they become, and how supportive her foundation is. And that's mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what I took is like your support system and the foundation of that support system is very crucial.

[01:00:19] Mm-hmm. And as a mother now, that must be super important. It's super important for me to, um, recognize, recognize that, and help my daughter recognize that. So that way when she, as she sort of goes through her life's journey, that she understands the importance of her support system and foundation for herself.

[01:00:42] Mm-hmm. . . Well, Mickey, this has been such a pleasure. It has been. Thanks, Wanda. It's been so enjoyable. I could go on and on cuz it's, it's been great. And I could just keep talking. But, um, I wanna thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Yeah, [01:01:00] thank you for having me. I'm, you know, I don't know.

[01:01:02] I didn't realized I was gonna be so nervous. I'm like so sweaty right now. . Sorry, . I'm sorry girls. But you know, I'm speaking with Wanda . I'm speaking with Mickley. I'm sweating too. I know. But yeah, no, it's been great. Thank you. Congratulations. Um, I know you have before we part, I know that you have a few things, um, showing right now.

[01:01:28] I don't know if you wanna like, you know, talk a little bit about like, you know, what's going on right now so that we can push that forward and have people go check out your shows and see if films Yeah. If you're in Paris, if you find your way in Paris and are you just wanna go for a weekend or for the holiday or, uh, before February 6th.

[01:01:47] I have an incredible exhibition at the Musee L'Orangerie, for those of you don't know, is uh, basically a [01:02:00] house of Monet. . Mm-hmm. is where the Monet Lilly paintings are. And I have been incredibly privileged to show a body of work based on my experience and residency that I did at Monet Gardens and Residency in 2011.

[01:02:19] So, although this is a new body of work, it's in response to that experience and conversation around Monet and it's incredible. So that shows going, and then I'm working currently on. New work That is going to be, again, that's gonna be next year, but we're coming up on next year. , I know very quickly here.

[01:02:43] Gosh. Uh, and March of, uh, 2023, there will be another exhibition once again and Paris. Mm-hmm. . I'm getting a lot of love from Paris Days, France Musee, Picasso. Oh, fantastic. And then I will [01:03:00] roll out incredible show survey retrospective at the Hayward, uh, which starts in London and then travels to other places like The Broad and la so Fantastic.

[01:03:13] Please thank you for your support. Uh, and thank you for your love and thanks for everything and just being a good friend. And thank you. Yes. Thank you for being there and supporting as well. Love you. Yeah, love you. You, Mickey. Thank you for listening For more, subscribe to Sundays at Cafe Back the podcast.

[01:03:35] You can also learn more about us and our film@cafebackfilm.com, and at Cafe Back Film on social media. Please share your thoughts with us, and if you have a coming out story that you'd like to share, reach out to us. This episode was recorded at the new stand studio at Rockefeller Center here in the heart of New York City.

[01:03:54] Special thanks to Joseph Hazan and Karen Song for their support. See you next [01:04:00] time.