Episode 18: Actor, Writer - Carl Capotorto

CARL CAPOTORTO, is a writer, and actor best known for his portrayal of Little Paulie Germani on HBO's The Sopranos, and has appeared in several classic indie features, including Five Corners and Mac. He is a native New Yorker, born and raised in the Bronx, and lives in Manhattan. He is also the author of Twisted Head: An Italian-American Memoir (Random House, 2008), based on his solo show of the same name. His plays have been presented at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center (three seasons), Yale Repertory Theatre, the Vineyard Theater, Theater for the New City, and many other venues around the country. 

In this episode, Carl talks about growing up in the Bronx, discovering the liberating effects of Disco for a young gay man, his experience playing a tough guy on The Sopranos and the joy of living life authentically despite the challenges of family and  self discovery. 

Transcript

Carl Capotorto - SACT Podcast

[00:00:00] In this episode, we welcome Carl Captorto. Carl is a writer and actor and best known for his portrayal of little Pauli Germani on The Sopranos. He is also the author of Twisted Head, an Italian American memoir. Welcome, Carl. Hey, Wanda, how are you? It's so nice to see you. It's good to see you.

[00:00:21] What's going on? How did you fare the last year or so? ? Yeah. You know, um you do what you can, right? During Covid, things were really quiet, then the holidays come in. I love the holidays and I love when they end

[00:00:36] Exactly. I love both things. Yeah. That's always nice to get past the, uh, frenzy. Do you spend a lot of time with family or friend here? Yeah, we do the whole family thing and it's a lot of food and a lot of, uh, you know, silly gifts. So just last night, Tom, my husband and I took down the tree, put away the Santas, like, okay, that's.

[00:00:55] It's over now until next year, and you usually spend the holidays in New York where. [00:01:00] You live? Yeah. My sister has a house out in Long Island and , we all go there and spend a couple of days. Yeah. Oh, nice. So, so how about you, you stay in town? Actually. I spent Christmas in Florida.

[00:01:11] Oh. Where I am spending some time. Up in northern Florida, in St. Augustine. And it was lovely, but it was cold. What's it cold? Really? It was 27 degrees. Who knew what in Florida? Yeah. I wasn't prepared. I didn't have a winter coat . I didn't know that. That's a little freaky. Yeah. Yeah. It was climate change. But yes, it was lovely with, uh, the grandkids and to family.

[00:01:32] And then we came up, to New York for, new Year's and to spend a few weeks here for the holidays. So it's been, it's been nice. And we're right here. I actually get to. Tree at Rockefeller Center. You're in the middle of everything. Yeah. . That's the first I've seen of the tree walking here today. That was sweet.

[00:01:46] Yeah. Something. So you are,, born and raised in New York? Yes. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. The Bronx. In the Bronx. The good old Bronx. The good old Bronx. Tell me a, a little bit of what that was like growing up in the Bronx. . Yeah, yeah. Italian American [00:02:00] family. Um, my parents were born in New York.

[00:02:02] My grandparents were born in Italy. And , I have three sisters. I'm in the middle. And we grew up like in a, uh, sort of little northeast corner of the Bronx, , by Bronx Park and Bronx Zoo and the Botanical gardens right there. Oh, nice. Pelham Parkway, if you took the number two train to Pelham Park where you'd be, right.

[00:02:19] , where I grew up and um, you know, so it was the sixties and seventies Uhhuh , and, , it was a crazy time in the Bronx in those years, in New York in general in those years. But you. in the seventies. , there was a lot of violence all around us. Not immediate neighborhood, our neighborhood was like rough and tumble.

[00:02:36] The other neighborhoods were really rough. And, uh, , in like junior high school, that was terrifying. You know, there were switch blades. You lived in fear of that? Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Switch blades. And a couple kids I knew got killed. They were race riots and, and uh, you know, and then, , what was the demographics, uh, in the Bronx at, at that time, in the sixties and seventies?

[00:02:57] Particularly like, you know, kind of you're saying the surrounding [00:03:00] areas? Yeah. You know, our, , little pocket was, , mostly like Jewish and kind. There was some Eastern European. Like working class to,, I guess you'd say lower middle class, you know, like tradespeople and, and laborers and, low level,, white collar workers.

[00:03:16] And um, and then there were little pockets of like Eastern European and that was our very immediate neighborhood and. A few blocks away where the church was, that was very Italian. Italian American over there. And then if you went up to Allerton Avenue, that was the cutoff. And then if there was a, a big Puerto Rican neighborhood just beyond it, and a black neighborhood mixed to that, nobody mixed on the streets.

[00:03:38] Mm-hmm. But at school, of course, you all came together and that was, it was a war zone. , you know, they would declare, like, you'd hear a rumor going around like, um, tomorrow is kill whitey. Oh my gosh. Uh oh. No. Tomorrow is kill Ric day to, I was like, what the hell is going on? I was a, you know, little peace loving Wow nerd.

[00:03:58] I, I did, [00:04:00] were there a lot of gangs? Because I remember, I mean, growing up in Brooklyn in the, , sixties and seventies as well. Yeah. I recall that there was a moment of like these gangs, like, you know mm-hmm. They were frighten. . Yeah. You know, I don't remember like, uh, gangs like that had names or something, but kids were just AMAs.

[00:04:18] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and they would form spontaneous gangs, , and um, and they, you know, it could get scary. Right, right. It get really scary. Yeah. High school got a little better. Um, I sort of found my footing, but junior high school, those three years were, were tough, were terrifying.

[00:04:35] Horrible. And what were you like , as a young man, were you , tough, tough Italian boy. Come help us. No, no. I was like a nerd, but I was a fashionable nerd because , I was really into , the seventies fashions, you know, , which gave me away really for being. I remember once I wore a little sparkle, it was a electric green sparkle belt, uh, and whatever I might have been  wearing like elephant bells and a Huckapoo

 And this one kid looked at me and he said to his friends, he really is gay. . That's exactly what he said. And gay, I don't even know if that word was used a lot, but, but that's what he said. He said he really is gay. I guess they were trying to figure it out and they figured it out. And I loved, um, disco. I think of it as something that really kind of saved me in a way because I found something in that music that was, um, you know, very ear, you know, talking really.

[00:05:30] I found something , um, that took me out of this and gave me something to aspire. It was like aspirational. It was fantastical to me. You know, the, , the things I heard and felt when I listened to like, uh, the long play of love to love You, you know? Mm-hmm. , of course, were Donna Summers, um, among her first albums, four Seasons of Love.

[00:05:50] Mm-hmm. , which, you know, remember was continuous play. Right. , it just transported me. I found. Transport of, that's the word. And, and I learned to hustle [00:06:00] and you know, the dance became, it's not to hustle the street the actual dance. But I loved all, all that is a rich period for music.

[00:06:07] And so, you know, right. There's like the whole, the Philly sound. I was a freak for the Philly sound before disco. Right, right, right. So like the first choice, oh, they were great and oh my God, all that stuff. So that all helped me a lot. It really helped me. , did the music feel sort of liberating to you?

[00:06:21] It was liberating in some way and it helped you in your, in your gayness or your queerness? I think it did. It made me feel free. Mm. . Interesting. Yeah. It made me feel free and it made me, and it was like a glimpse of another word. Don't, let's not forget it was a new sound. Right, right, of course. Yeah. All this way of producing music and singing it, even the vocalists mm-hmm.

[00:06:40] were doing different things than you had heard before. You know, and it, Dr, you couldn't sit still and the electronics, you know, the electronic aspect of it, and it was just, um, it did, it was, it was liberating. Mm-hmm. , it was liberating and, and I just kept searching. Hustle partners. Mm-hmm. , like, who can I teach?

[00:06:57] Like, you can't do it. You can't do it. [00:07:00] And I, I, I did find a girl in high school, Margaret, uh, maybe she's listening cuz I think she was gay too. Um, she was spectacular, . And we used to hustle our butts off like we'd find an empty classroom. and we didn't even have music, but we would just like, we'd say, okay, let's do it to this song.

[00:07:18] And we knew the song and we'd both be like sort of humming it and just doing the dance. Oh, it's fun. Tell me about those spaces. I mean, so, so did you go to disco clubs? I mean, I know you said you were, you were young, but this seems to have been something that stayed with you for, for many years. Oh, I'm still a club head.

[00:07:35] I mean, So talk to me a little bit about what those clubs were like, what clubs did you go to? How did it feel? Was this also part of like, engaging with a more diverse community where you would find like-minded, , queer, gay at the time? People, yeah. You know, it started in, uh, , Peter Mazzoni basement.

[00:07:55] That's where we'd sort of practice . Um, and, uh, and then there were some clubs. [00:08:00] I was a little intimidated, you know, I was not the bold. Teenager. And so early on there were clubs. Like in Yonkers there was a place called Peach Trees, I think also in Yonkers was a place called the second floor. And uh, and, and we'd go to those places and we'd sometimes come into the city.

[00:08:16] We'd try to get, I remember going to, uh, Laan. and we tried to get into Studio 54. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . They were very young. They wouldn't let us in, but we got into New York and New York. Oh yeah. I really remember New York. New York down. Yeah. Yeah. That was terrific fun. You know what, it's funny, , your questions involved what was happening around me.

[00:08:34] I was so interested in just. getting lost on that dance floor, hearing that music, having a good partner that I could really hustle with, trying new stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. , that was my focus. And then sometimes somebody would step in, right? Like a woman would see, who could really hustle, would see, oh, you really know how to lead.

[00:08:50] And you know, they'd say, may I? And then that was, you know, that was really fun. and it was also a way to, uh, interact sort of, um, in a sexy way with women, which I [00:09:00] enjoyed. Right. I was just gonna ask, what maybe was that even like a subconscious way of actually engaging with women? It, it was cause it's very sexy.

[00:09:07] Um, , but. It didn't have to become sexual, didn't have to, it didn't have that pressure of becoming sexual because really the, the release is in the dancing itself. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So, you know, that was definitely an aspect. And then in later years, and you and I have discussed this, I became, you know, a real house Head, paradise garage and, um, the Sound Factory.

[00:09:27] Right. And, and all those places. And did you have a similar feeling, , because now it's not a partner dance, but you are. The world of, of music and sound. Mm-hmm. . And then obviously those clubs that you just mentioned were very, , gay centric. Yeah. So did you feel that same feeling that you got from your disco hustle?

[00:09:47] Yeah. Now and now in a different way. Right? Because you're, because you are alone. Oh, me. You know, might go with a couple of friends, um, but you know, you're dancing alone , and, you know, , the, uh, Gentle use of drugs got [00:10:00] introduced. Mm-hmm. , I was never a big, um, druggie, but like, you know, in those days, in the eighties, , they had this very pure M D M A.

[00:10:08] So you could do one little, little tiny pill, you know, and you'd be good. And it wasn't like crazy. It was just enough , cause I like my sleep , and so it was just enough that I can actually stay up until 11 the next morning, you know? Good. We'd meet at like three, right? Like I'll meet you at the diner at three, you know, at the Chelsea Diner, Uhhuh, , and, and Am.

[00:10:28] Am people am and you walk over the club, you, you know, by four you're, you're really, it's place is starting to hop. It's not really gonna take off till about seven or eight. Right, right, right. And then, you know, by 11 or noon you, well, I was not able to do it without a little assistance. Um, and, and I, and I found though, in those places I would have like kind of quasi spiritual experiences.

[00:10:50] I think, um, as did others, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and all of course all the fantastic, uh, you know, those houses, the house and ball scene all gathered there. , if you [00:11:00] didn't feel like dancing, you needed a break, you could just watch this spectacular death defining, yeah. Voguing, vog dancing and.

[00:11:06] It's where Madonna discovered voguing. Mm-hmm. . It's where she discovered the House of Ninja. Mm-hmm. , she pulled Willie Ninja right off the floor. Yeah. Um, you know, Cher eventually hired Junior to do, you know, to produce her music. Music. Junior Vasquez. Right. Junior Vasquez. That was at the Sound Factory.

[00:11:23] Found Factory. Yeah. So, you know, these places were Larry La Van at the, Larry la you know, the high priest. Mm-hmm. . There's nobody a, a any DJ I think ever. Um, just, just. Try to get to where Larry was, I mean, including Junior, who I think was a brilliant dj at his best. It was, uh, it was getting close to Larry, the band, but nobody could touch him.

[00:11:46] Mm-hmm. , he was divine. Yeah. He really was divine. . That's beautiful. I was either too young or just hanging out more in the um, sort of like the Nu Wave [00:12:00] punky night scene at the Mud Club and Oh yeah. You know, Area and Hurrah’s and I didn't go to Paradise Garage and I'm. I'm sad that I didn't, I didn't get to experience that moment because, I mean, everyone has talked about how magical it was to be on the dance floor with Larry.

[00:12:17] The thing is that at that time it was an explosion. Mm-hmm. , , we could sit here and name places , all day long and, and you, you know, some, you went to, some you didn't. There were dozens.

[00:12:27] There's nothing in Manhattan. Right. I now there's nothing. I know. It's really cra I mean, there were dozens of clubs, dozens for. Of all kinds and all, all sizes, all of up uptown, downtown. Yeah. You know, east west, I think it's shocking that Manhattan has done. But anyway. Yeah. 

[00:12:44] You can't afford to have a place here. I mean, it's not like the day's true where you could just, that's walk in. There was no door cover. You know, the drinks were affordable, the spaces were huge, and there was diversity.

[00:12:54] You know, there wasn't also this sort of, uh, exclusive like, , it was [00:13:00] very inclusive and that's what made it so brilliant, you know? Oh, yeah. All walks of life. Yeah. Together in one room experiencing the same thing. When did you personally, as a young man, realize that you were different? That you might be attracted to boys or men?

[00:13:21] Right. And how did that feel? For you, and how did that sort of transfer in your world and in school? Mm. You know, it, I, it was really early it's way pre sexual that I, that I understood this about myself and, um, I didn't want it to be the case, but I, , I have a very early memory.

[00:13:44] I, I had to have been like six or seven and, you know, nobody was out in that period. But there were two guys. My father had a pizza shop, um, on, on this little kind of a strip mall. And, uh, , and one of the storefronts there was a [00:14:00] beauty parlor called the peppermint stick. Mm-hmm. was done up like all red and white stripes.

[00:14:04] Mm-hmm. , I loved that place, . And the two guys who ran it were Lenny and Charles. And uh, and they were, you know, , in the terminology of that day, you know, flamers were a little flamboyant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were flamers, they weren't hiding anything and the women loved. And the men accepted them. They were Lenny and Charles.

[00:14:20] You know, you just let it alone. And I remember they came into the pizza shop one time and Charles, who was tall, and I remember he had dark hair and he looked like a TV actor to me. And he just, he picked me up and he kind of just shook me a little and he said, what a great kid, something, something. And I remember, who knows in Your Child Mind?

[00:14:39] But I remember that I understood something about them. , Uhhuh, , and I understood that it was the same for me. It was this fleeting thing. Huh? That, and, and it scared me in a way. I loved them. They were so sweet. And, and, and I know my mother loved, and they made my mother look beautiful. I had a lot of reasons to really like them, but I was uncomfortable with the idea that [00:15:00] I am, that, you know?

[00:15:01] Mm. Um, and then in, in kindergarten, I was called a faggot. Now why? Well, because at Playtime, . They were like, okay, boys, you go over there and play and girls, you go over there. The boys had like some metal trucks and like a wall, and they were just jamming the trucks into the wall. Okay. And the girls had a supermarket.

[00:15:23] They had little cards, they had cans, they registered, would you like that to go? Whatever. I'm like, this is fine. I'm going over here. . And that was it. That was it. I would, I wanted to play with the, and that labeled me very early. You were a little more gentle . It was more fun to get to ring up sales and make change.

[00:15:42] What's what's fun about knocking a truck into a wall? I had no interest in trucks. I really had no interest in trucks. Right, right. Or a wall. Yeah, none of it was entertaining to me. It's always fascinating to me how the really flamboyant men, particularly the hairdressers, were always so [00:16:00] accepted. Right, exactly.

[00:16:00] Because they were just so over the top. Yes. That there was no relation to their sexual lives whatsoever. There were just sort of parodies of. Particular type of, of person and they made the ladies feel super special, which they absolutely loved The ladies loved them ladies. And the men also love the like thought, oh, you know, they're whatever.

[00:16:19] They're those like funny guys that do hair, right? It's, no, that's true. That's really it. I think it's true. Even in like, um, to, to till today in really tough, uh, neighborhoods. , you know, somebody dressed as a, you know, I don't know, we used to say, uh, drag queen or somebody who's actually trans or just a drag performer or whatever it is, but.

[00:16:39] , I think there's a respect because it's like, I know that person has some kind of self-possession and some kind of courage to be walking through these streets at this hour, you know, getting on the subway, you know, and people don't mess with them. I think, uh, for that reason, uh, um, yeah, sadly things have shifted a little bit now in this [00:17:00] sort of trends, my god know, and drag queens done with this story hour, like ridiculousness I've done with, done with this.

[00:17:06] Like I. . I know. It's just, it's, it's, it's been attacks in Hell's Kitchen. I've lived there many years and, um, it just, it's shocking that this is still the hell going on. I don't, I agree. It is shocking, you know, and we have to keep fighting back and keep telling stories like this and remain visible so that we can, you know, combat all of this, uh, hate and Yeah.

[00:17:31] And, , threats to our community. Yeah. You know, it really, amen. Unfair. So let's get back a little bit to your Italian American upbringing. Yeah. So, as we know, Italian Americans tend to be. Catholic. Yeah. And there's also a level of old school mentality. You know, not to stereotype, but I mean, it's the same in, in many families and many cultures. Mm-hmm. , what was that like with you, , being [00:18:00] gay and your family? Well, in those years, like, while I was still living home and stuff, I mean, it was, it was, you know, very under wraps. Um, but I know that my, my father kind of suspected and.

[00:18:15] One day because I'm an idiot. This must have been in high school and, and I would sometimes sneak down here to Times Square , and just to see whatever. It was so forbidden, you know? And it was Times Square in the seventies. It was the real times square. And, um, and, , I found this publication. It was like a newspaper, not a magazine.

[00:18:34] It was called Gay Times. Do you remember Gay Times? Yes, I do. You do? Yeah. And, uh, it was just like, it was news and this and that, and there were personal, personal ads in the back mm-hmm. . And there was also, um, you know, ads for, for male erotica. Right. And so I sent away. For something they said like, free package of, you know, photos.

[00:18:54] I was like, okay, and like a fool. I put my real name and address and everything, you know, to my family home [00:19:00] in the Bronx . And it didn't come like in paper wrapping or anything. It came in plain paper. Mm-hmm. , um, and I just thought, you know, I'm home every day from school. I will go to the mailbox first. And this one day, it was a Saturday and it came before I could get to it.

[00:19:16] And uh, and it was a plain paper thing, but I saw my father come in the house, he called me. And, and it wasn't, it wasn't anger, it was more like, um, Dread or something that he, I heard in his voice, Uhhuh or defeat terror, something. Oh, no. Did he opened it and he called me and he had opened it and he was holding it and um, and I could see the return.

[00:19:37] He said, Mr. G was the return. That's all you know, Mr. G. And it had some address in San Francisco. And he said, did you order something? , Mr. G. Mr. G. And oh, I could still feel like my heart sank into my feet. And I was like, um, no. What Mr. Who? No, I, and then I said, no, but I did. And I'm thinking fast. I was like, you know, but I did [00:20:00] order something from Charles Atlas and I had Uhhuh, , Uhhuh,

[00:20:03] And so I went upstairs and I got all my Charles Atlas stuff, Uhhuh, . I said, remember I told you I wanted to start working out? Not true. I just thought maybe he think I had said that. And I said, maybe they sell a dress or maybe they gave the, you know, but he, you know, he knew. He knew. How old were you? I can't have been more than, um, 16 would be Uhhuh.

[00:20:24] a lot. 16, 15 Uhhuh. 16. and I still have that Mr. G, who were the images? They were nasty . Oh gosh. They were nasty. Mr. G would not playing . They weren't. And, um, and, and my father was, uh, this is for another time and place. It's, I write about this in my book. Yes. He, he had this, anti-porn crusade. Okay. So it was doubly bad.

[00:20:49] And so, and in that capacity, he had become friends with the Monsignor at Trinity Church down on Wall Street. Oh, wow. He, he had a good, uh, uh, nose for [00:21:00] causing up to powerful people who could help him in his cause. Right, right. And so I remember , at that point we were living in a house and so he was on the downstairs phone and there was an extension up in, in, in my parents' room and.

[00:21:12] I heard that he was talking to the Monsignor and so I went and snuck to listen on the other end. And I remember the Monsignor saying, well, you know, just let it let it go and keep your eye on the situation. If it happens again, you know, you're gonna have to, to have a talk or whatever. He said he was very reasonable.

[00:21:30] Uhhuh . It wasn't a local guy, he was a classy guy. Right, right, right. You know, and, and he was just saying a very, a very sane thing, , you know what, Wanda, and it makes me sad now. It saddened him. Mm. He never, he never said more about it after that happened. He never said anything.

[00:21:48] He never said more about it after that happened. The only other thing he said right after that call was, were you listening? On the other, he can hear the cliques. Oh yeah. Were you listening? I said, no. Listening. What? No. I always [00:22:00] tried to play like, no, no, I don't know. , but he knew and he didn't say anything more for the rest of the day.

[00:22:06] And my father had a violent temper and would like ride you for the smallest infraction. But on this, I think it just drove him inward. Mm-hmm. . And, um, I think he was horrified and I think he was, this is probably a depression. Shocked. He shocked. What does, what does it mean? You know, I think parents today parents are, uh, obviously more informed and there's more.

[00:22:31] role models for parents and Right. And stories and, and, and support groups and conversations, you know, for them to understand what it means to be, , a member of the LGBTQ plus, right. Society. But back then, I don't know that. Anyone or parents really understood what that meant. And I would imagine that for him to find these photographs, he just thought, oh my god, my son's like a pervert.

[00:22:56] A pervert. You know, per, yeah. Yeah. I think he thought I was, um, [00:23:00] a pervert. I do remember, um, . I had bought a copy of, , hustler Magazine and it was because I had seen it at a friend's house. It had a naked man in it, and that's why I got it . But I hid it under my mattress and then one day, whatever, I don't know why they were flipping mattresses.

[00:23:16] They were turning over the mattresses or something. He found it and I remember him saying, SI relief. Did you have. . I remember a feeling distinctly that he was relieved and he was a little like winking at me. He was like, was this yours? And I was like, yeah, but I only got it cuz um, you know that what some excuse I heard there was an article in it about, and he said, you know, come on, you got sisters in the house.

[00:23:38] You know? Right, right. But I could see that he was like, who? Thank heavens . The kid's interested in, you know, some dna. And some dna. And I tried, you know, I did try. I would study those pictures like, yeah, they're beauty. I can appreciate beauty, but it didn't do the same thing. Right. Right, right. To me that these other pictures did and then, and then did, do you think [00:24:00] your dad ever spoke to your mom about it or he kept her?

[00:24:02] He kept her on, I'm sure. I don't think my mom was ever surprised. Mm-hmm. , I think my mom knew from very early and she was very cool with me. Uh, he wasn't. Did you ever have an official sort of coming out conversation with your parents? To my mother, um, and to my father. I tried. , but there was a lot of drama.

[00:24:20] He was very high drama and uh, and when I would try to begin to talk about it and he knew that's where I was heading, he had had heart trouble and so he would just say, you know, stop talking. I have a pain. It's coming up my arm. It's heading right from my shoulder. Then to my cha, I was like, okay, all right.

[00:24:37] I'm gonna give him a heart attack, you know? Right. Stop talking. Um, and he, it was, he was very dramatic. He would leave bible passages open on my bed and ah, you know, when it, when it became clear, cause I was gonna move out and move in with my then boyfriend who I then stayed with for like 21 years. . , and when he knew I was gonna do that, he really freaked out.

[00:24:56] Mm-hmm. and then, and then he disowned me. So I was not, [00:25:00] uh, I'm sorry, really wasn't supposed to be part of the family anymore, but my sisters and I still dealt with each other and, and so did my mother. I didn't officially, I didn't, it's so funny cuz my mother came to our apartment a couple times. She'd bring big pots of food and we'd have these family dinners.

[00:25:16] but we never said anything about it. Mm-hmm. . And then one time I felt like I Okay. You know, say the words mm-hmm. and, and, and I said, mom, we were on the phone and I think it was, I think it was this late, it was like 85, that's how late it was. Mm-hmm. into this whole thing. Right. It's years and I got together with Fred, my ex in 79.

[00:25:35] Wow. So this is like six years later. Yeah. I know. It was implicitly understood, but. say the words. And so I said, mom, I guess by now it's clear, you know what my relationship with Fred is. And she said, I know, I know, of course I know. She said, but, uh, but I worry. Mm-hmm. . And I said, why? Why? She said, you know, you're not gonna have kids, you're gonna be lonely.

[00:25:57] Mm. And then she thought for a minute and she said, um, but I mean, you [00:26:00] have kids in, you're lonely anyways. Right. , she sort of answered it for herself. And then she said, I heard on the radio that gay men. turned gay because they hate their mother. Oh. And I said, no, mom. Actually, the old Freudian thing is that , they had a distant stern father and their, they had a dotting mother.

[00:26:19] Right. They're too attached to their mother. Mm-hmm. . And she's like, oh, okay. That worked for her. That made her feel good. I'm not gonna lose me. And then she was, and then like, . She was like, anyway, carry on. Like just whatever next topic. Mm-hmm. . She was very cool that way. My mother. Oh, that's wonderful. Did you ever reconcile with your father?

[00:26:38] We did, uh, in a way we did. , after a few years of this, , , I said, what can we do and, uh, you know, to fix this? And he said, uh, well, you can first of all apologize, just like a blanket apology, just, you know, sorry. Mm-hmm. . And, um, and you can never bring that person here again. I [00:27:00] tried it once or twice, and you can never mention that person's name again.

[00:27:05] And if you do those three things, you can sort of reenter the family. Oof. And so I agreed to it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then he said, uh, Mary, get the anette tab a toast. That's exactly what he said. . So I knew he was relieved and he wanted it, and I thought, you know, whatever, I don't need to talk to my father about Fred.

[00:27:24] Right. He just didn't wanna, he didn't wanna know it. See it. Pretend it doesn't exist. Right. , um, I know from, in my personal situation, it was more my mom, like my mom was like this, like, you know, she didn't wanna see it, hear it, don't talk about it, don't bring her over for the holidays, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:42] Right? And, um, that was hard for me because how could I possibly be real with you when I am not? , you know, it's not my li I'm, I'm pretending, you know. Right. And it made me very angry and I [00:28:00] realized that it was just a, a reflection. My mom saw her in me and there was this like, reflection for her that I was queer that she just couldn't accept as like, you know, how did I produce this person?

[00:28:13] You know? And we've gotten past that. But it was, um, it was a long journey, you know, she realized she was going to lose me if she didn't try to accept Right. Who I was and get to just, you know, know who I was and, and embraced me in, entirely . And, um, yeah. Now, you know, she's, and it's a total non-issue.

[00:28:34] It's, it's a non-issue. Yeah. Unless she's still funny, like, , I spent the night, the last, visit I was here with, with her. , , it was summer, it was warm. So I wore like this little like nightgown, you know, a little slinky nightgown to go to bed.

[00:28:47] She was looking at me, uh, you know, when I was going in the room and she was like, well, you look so sexy, Wanda. I was like, oh, thanks mom. And then she thought for a minute and she's like, Do you and Lisa sleep in the same bed? . [00:29:00] Oh, and I'm like, of course mom. We do sleep in the same bed. And she got quiet because I, you know, she was looking at me as a sexual person and then put two and two together that I sleep in the same bed with my partner Bonnie.

[00:29:13] And what does that mean? And it kind of like shut her down for a second. And then she changed the subject real quick. . So there's still moments of like, you know, the reality what it is. It's just so, um, foreign really. It was so hidden. I mean, it's not that it didn't exist in her. Younger years, but people just didn't talk about it.

[00:29:32] Right, right, right. Exactly. And your siblings were fine with you? They were, yeah. Your, you have brothers and No, three sisters. Three sisters also, yes. Yeah. I don't think it was a surprise. Oh, so you're the only son as well? Yeah. So it's, it was a tough ones. That's, that's a whammy for, for dad. It was tough and I felt guilty.

[00:29:48] You, mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. . I did feel guilty, like I was, uh, hoisting this on them. Yeah. You know? . Yeah. But we don't choose to do it. And that's, that's heavy. Yeah. That's, that's heavy, heavy burden to [00:30:00] carry. You feel like you're hurting, hurting your parents. Yeah. Or, yeah. And, and that, and there is nothing you can do about it.

[00:30:05] It is who you are. Right. You, we have not chosen this. And who would choose all of that, right? Emotional. That's right. Baggage. All that pain. Yeah. That's right. Mm. Yeah. And I, I mean, look, other people, I'm sure my father, uh, could have had his way. He said, well, just, just, just squash that. Mm-hmm. , you know, just squash it and do what you're supposed to do.

[00:30:24] You know? Right. Get married, have kids. Do, like, just get a control of yourself and, you know, I mean, I think he would view it through that lens and it's like Exactly. Exactly. It was just never an option for me to not, I didn't, I didn't know how I could l. And not be, uh, true to this central fact about me.

[00:30:44] Exactly. Did they at any point, , raise any concern about, uh, were they aware of H I V and aids that was happening during that time as well? Very much. My father [00:31:00] and I never discussed that, but my mother, uh, and I did because. I lost one friend, very early, a childhood friend who she knew, knew and loved. I, I lost a lot of friends, but a lot of them she didn't know.

[00:31:11] My childhood friend, Peter Mazzoni, uh, there's now a clinic named for him in Philly, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the Mazzoni Clinic. Anyway, I grew up with Peter and she loved Peter. He became a doctor he was actually on the forefront of, of early HIV and aids, uh, treatment. Oh, wow. So she was heartbroken about that.

[00:31:29] And she knew, and then she did worry about, another life, almost lifelong friend. Carlos got sick, but he didn't, he, he lasted a really long time. He got on the right cocktails and he was able to live for a long time. But she was always worried about Carlos. Right. And she was worried about me, but I kept reassuring her, I'm, I'm fine.

[00:31:47] I, I stayed negative through all those years. Mm-hmm. . Um, it helped that I was in a relationship, of course. Um, but yeah. Yeah, I know it from, that was such a tough time. I mean, I, I lost so many friends as well, so, and I lost a very, my best friend, [00:32:00] which was sort of shocking because he had really been, um, sort of asexual during many of those years.

[00:32:08] Like, you know, he would joke like, Hey, don't worry, Wanda, I would be the immaculate infection if it ever got me because he was not Wow. Sleeping around. And he got sick and died and oh, you know, we finally tracked it back to college, his college days. Because if you recall, the infection at that time could sit dormant for quite a while before Yes.

[00:32:31] There was any manifestation of mm-hmm. , you know, h I V. And, um, sadly, he, he passed and so did several mm-hmm. friends, um, yeah. And my cousin and oh yeah. It was just a horrible time. Horrible as it was, you know, for, for so many. , but, um, horrible. And I've been, you know what? You get little flashbacks like all during covid, this thing of um mm-hmm.

[00:32:54] positive, negative. I'm like, oh, please, I don't want to hear those. God, I don't wanna take a test. Oh my God, it's [00:33:00] so true. And wait to hear, there's the virus, but I don't want a positive or negative. I don't, I No thank you. Yeah. But I was really, was genuinely getting flashbacks, you know, , when Covid first happened in the early 20.

[00:33:14] I mean, I had exactly the same feeling. I called a friend in tears because I don't know if you know Mona Foot, the performer, Mona. Yeah, I know, I know Mona's work. Nahham Wooden. He was a good friend and he actually worked for us at Wonder Bar for many years as a bartender. Anyway, he was one of the very early Covid deaths.

[00:33:35] Oh, geez. And he was this strapping healthy man. . And I remember calling, uh, a mutual friend in tears because I was like, oh my God, this is like, please don't let this, uh, virus be like what we went through in the, you know, eighties with all of our, you know, community. Because it totally reminded me of that [00:34:00] as an example for how it's possible to respond to a virus.

[00:34:05] that's, you know, rampaging out of control. You saw this way of doing it that was ended up to be really effective, right? Mm-hmm. , now this with Covid. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, and you know, there is a way that I've flashed back to those early years in, in, in renewed anger. Mm-hmm. , uh, four years. The word wasn't even spoken.

[00:34:26] Ronald Reagan in the White House would not say the word. Right. You know? Well, while young. Mostly young men were dying just in droves, just waves of deaths. I mean, uh, again, this whole Covid period has, has, has parallels, right? Yeah, no, absolutely. To that era, you know, and, and AIDS and h I v. infections, you know, you had to be physically engaged with one another, right?

[00:34:57] That's right. So it was this, you [00:35:00] know, coming together and, you know, coming together sexually or you know, sharing. needles. I mean, there's, there's something that you needed to do together to get infected. Sure. You know, and with Covid, I mean, in similar ways. I mean, it's just like, you know, if you're near other people, but it, but then it became this isolation, right?

[00:35:18] You had to be completely isolated from each other, where, I guess similarly with H I V. , you know, everyone had to sort of like keep away and, and, and, yeah. And there was a lot of resistance to that. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I remember there being a lot of resistance to that. Yeah. You know, and now I hear, I read that there's a wave of it again, because of the, the medications that are available that young people feel.

[00:35:46] it's okay to Right. Not worry about that because there's a pill for it. You know, there are so many people on prep. I don't know how I feel about prep. 

[00:35:56] Do we know the long term effects mm-hmm. On mm-hmm. On the body, on, on, [00:36:00] on the ability to tolerate that, um, drug. Years. And I do think that, , it can, uh, encourage a kind of, um, recklessness mm-hmm. and, and I think you're, you're, you know, you gotta be free to explore. You're young, you're coming up, you're, you've just embraced your sexuality.

[00:36:16] You have to be free to explore it. Right. Um, so it's not that, it's just that I, I think the, the prep seems like too easy an answer. I'm not sure it is the answer. Right, right. And it seems to. Yeah, I agree. And that concerns me about, and you know, and that's not the only concern when you're sexually active, there's all kinds of like's, right?

[00:36:33] STDs out there besides, you know, oh yeah. Uh, hiv. But let's get back to Okay. The fun stuff. Okay. And the happy stuff. . So you were the fabulous little Polly on the soprano for many years. Yeah. And we all enjoyed watching you. Mm-hmm. . And I wanted to obviously ask you a little bit about that experience and also, 

[00:36:58] Did your sexuality [00:37:00] come into play at any point during. Your hiring of that role and what was that experience like for you? You know, it was a blast in, in the word, it was really, really fun. I mean, that was a fun bunch of years. Um, and, um, , you know, there were people on that cast who knew I was gay.

[00:37:20] There were others who didn't. Um, David Chase is a super smart guy and he also does his due diligence, so he probably knew, I came into the show in season three and I had friends who were already on the show. Ia Totoro is an old friend, um, Suzanne Shepherd who played, um, uh, edie falco's mother com.

[00:37:38] Uh, cam Carmella's mother, I even knew Jimmy a little bit from downtown theater back in the day and, and others. I knew. And so, um, most of those people I just named knew I was gay and, and I was never in the closet. So I think if somebody had asked, they would've shared it. And it was never ever an issue. It was [00:38:00] never an issue, luckily, and I was worried, but sometimes I would worry about it, you know?

[00:38:05] Right. Um, never came up. In fact, you know what, um, , uh, little Pauly was the nephew of Pauly walnuts. Tony Cerico, who we just lost in 20 Yes. 22, you know, with the White Wings. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and I, and, and I love Tony. We had our own. relationship. We, it became like a uncle nephew relationship, you know? Um, and, , when the book came out, I think that was 2008.

[00:38:30] And And this is your, your memoir? Yeah. It's mostly which I wanna talk about. Yeah. And it, you know, and obviously, uh, I, I, it's mostly, uh, about, uh, growing up and coming of age in the Bronx, in the sixties and seventies, the pizza shop, the Crazy House. We lived in all this stuff. And, and, and the course of that, you know, I talk about being.

[00:38:50] and I was a little anxious about certain people reading it and Tony Cerico was one of those. Cause I loved Tony and, and I don't, I didn't think he knew this about [00:39:00] me and I didn't want him to think less of me or something. And um, and the last time I saw him, and in fact it's the last time I saw Jimmy and uh, it's the last time.

[00:39:09] that I was together with a big group of us. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , um, was was 1212 2012. It was a concert. The 12 12 12 12 concert at Madison Square Garden for Sandy Relief. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. And, um, we had a box. We had this. Party box, like, my God, that was fun. And then we would go down and man, the sort of telethon, oh, great.

[00:39:34] People would, uh, would, would call in with, with pledges. And so up in the box we were all chatting and. I was asking Tony, Hey Tony, what are you, you know, what are you up to these days? Now this is a couple years after Sopranos, and uh, he said in his, in his Tony way, he said, uh, I'm on family guy. He said, I'm gonna be on family.

[00:39:56] Yeah, play the dog. They adopt like [00:40:00] a tough dog, . And I play the dog. I said, okay, well, you know, I'm gonna be listening to that and for that. And, and uh, and he said, what? And he said, what are you up to? And he said, you know, I'm writing, I'm just focused on writing. I'm not really acting. And uh, and he said, yeah, you know, I read your book.

[00:40:15] Oh. And I thought, oh no, here it comes. And he said, you're a good writer. He said, and that was a very. Very brave thing you did there. My hat's off to you. He said you should keep writing. That's a, you did a good job there. Oh, that's wonderful. And I swear it was like the, a papa blessing. I don't know. You know, I don't know that I love this about myself, that I, you know, that I, that I needed or wanted that blessing.

[00:40:39] He did become kind of a father figure, but coming from Tony f. Absolutely, I can understand that. It surprised me, frankly. Mm-hmm. , I, I didn't expect him to say something insulting that wasn't like him. He was, he was really a lovely guy, but I thought, you know, he wouldn't touch it at all. But he accepted you and he completely, uh, gave you props on your writing.

[00:40:59] [00:41:00] Yeah. and embraced you, basically, right? Yeah, it meant a lot. It, it meant a lot to me. Um, there is someone who was behind who is behind the scenes, who, who is, um, who was kind of, you know, an important figure on the show as just, and during the closing part it was the, this was the rat party, the final, the, the series rap party.

[00:41:22] Mm-hmm. , a big lavish event in LA that HBO had. It's a Bombs a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal. And, and it was toward the end of the night and everybody's in their cups a little bit. I'm not a big drinker or, uh, but, but everybody else was in their cups. And, um, this woman who again, was sort of a big name behind the scenes and we're chatting and chatting and I said something that would reveal that I'm gay, Uhhuh, , whatever.

[00:41:46] I said, it wasn't something risque, it was just whatever I said. And she said, She sort of put down her drink and she said, you are gay . I was like, seven years later, she hasn't figured this out. I said, um, and I was like, oh, [00:42:00] well what do I care? The c you know, the show is over. I said, yeah, you didn't know that.

[00:42:04] I said, I thought you. She said, no, I had no idea. She said, does David know? Oh my goodness. And I don't know if David knows, and it's, and what does it matter? But, so those are two opposite ends of the, like, she really wasn't cool. She wasn't cool. Well, it didn't feel at all. Cool. Ah, interesting. And here's Tony Sarco, who you would think would be more like that.

[00:42:24] Mm-hmm. . And he was totally rolled off his back, so you don't know, but you know, maybe she was just shocked because she's like, oh God, I never would've even considered that or thought about that and look at this person, that person's gay. How interesting was, I think it was that, and frankly, Uh, I think she was maybe flirting with me.

[00:42:45] Oh man. And she might have been a little, she's like the show center. I can, the show's over, I can finally just do this. And you know, we're at this gorgeous hotel. She's like, damn, I missed my chance. It's not gonna happen . So it might have been that I'll give her that, you know, [00:43:00] and she wasn't mean. It was just, you know, you, I think about that.

[00:43:04] I was thinking about that because you asked, one of the things you asked leading up to this was, do you have a coming out story? and I thought, you know, you're always coming out. Exactly. Isn't that true? Yeah, you are, you are. I think our life is is a coming out, full on, coming out story. Cuz here it's not, doesn't necessarily have to be coming out story of a sexual, uh, type.

[00:43:24] You know, we're. Right. We're revealing ourselves. Yes. And coming in terms with ourselves and growing. And it is a constant coming out. Yeah. And even in terms of sexuality, there's always, you know, in a, in a, in a simple exchange, uh, you know, what'd you do this weekend? You know, you're either gonna edit it if you don't wanna reveal yourself.

[00:43:44] Or my husband and I went out, you know, went up to, um, visit some friends upstate for the weekend. Mm-hmm. , we went mm-hmm. rented a little cabin or whatever, like it's gonna come out Right. It's gonna come out. I remember like when I was in office temp a hundred years ago, and people would say, so what'd you [00:44:00] do this weekend?

[00:44:01] You know, and I would just, just substitute pronouns for, right, right. My girlfriend and I think, did this, you know, Fria, her name is Fria, you know, it was Fred. My, my ex accent would just say, Fria Fria. And I, Frida and I went out for a, you know, whatever. Oh God. I know the things we. But no longer. No longer.

[00:44:21] Now, what are your feelings on the progress of LGBTQ community? What's, what's happened in terms of, , being able to marry and mm-hmm. younger people, being able to live their truths, whatever that might be, and the existence. The new pronouns. Mm-hmm. and the fluidity. Uh, how, how does that feel for you and what do you have to say about that at all?

[00:44:50] look, I welcome the more openness, the better, the more personal freedom and liberation, the better. . , [00:45:00] we're gonna keep evolving in this direction. Let's hope. Right? I would just hearing something that I think Facebook offers 58.

[00:45:08] gender identities. Um, no way. Oh, 50, 58. I looked them up. It might be 68. I, I, I looked them up. I think, um, Newsweek or somebody listed them all. I was, that even possible . I couldn't imagine what they were, so I right away went and looked them up. There's an interesting, uh, Ezra Klein podcast about I love them.

[00:45:25] Yeah. Uh, yeah. About the sort of new gender issues and so on, and. and he mentioned that fact and I was like, what the heck? And I looked him up and, and, and I thought, you know, this is too divided. Mm-hmm. , that was my feeling. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , like, I'm looking forward to a day where we keep evolving to something simpler.

[00:45:40] Right? Right. Something simpler. Right? Because we are all like one, essentially one, one thing. You know, one humans, one. One name for, I don't know. I'm not, you know, not quite that, but I, I do feel like it's fractured. Mm-hmm. . Um, and that, of course, anytime you fracture any sort of identity or whatever, um, you're going to, uh, [00:46:00] isolate yourself from others.

[00:46:01] Right. And create the discrimination and the, and division in division. Mm-hmm. . So I'd, I'd love to see it keep evolving in a way that, you know, simplifies. Let's talk a little bit about what's happening now in your future. Uh, do you have any new projects you. Tell us about, and Is your book still, uh, a still ordered?

[00:46:21] Yeah, I think we could totally get our audiences to read that beautiful memoir. I would be book to read that book. I love that book. And you know what happened? It's called Twisted Head, which is the translation of my name Kapo. Toto is Twisted Head. And um, you know what happened with that book? It was due to come out October.

[00:46:39] 2008. Well, on a, and we had all this kind of, you know, press lined up, like whatever, NYC and, you know, different. I saw John Touro, Annabel was on one of your, uh, readings and introduced you and that was lovely. John and Annabel came down and did a, a, a reading and I called in all the troops, you know, , because what happened was, on the [00:47:00] day before it came out, October 7th, George Bush got on.

[00:47:04] National television said, you know, the entire global economy is tanking, , God run for the hills. You know? Right, right, right. And then my little memoir came out the next day, October 8th. Ah, right. So everything got canceled. Whatever press we had got canceled and it just wasn't something people were interested.

[00:47:21] So, you know, God blessed them. The, publishers, uh, and my, my editor Gerald Howard, he just retired . Great man, and , he stuck with it and they, they put it out in paperback, uh, the next summer. Oh. And it, and it's sold a little bit, mm-hmm. , you know, the paperback release does not command the same attention. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. that the, that the initial release, uh, does so, so it kind of, disappeared and, and I was, uh, it sad. I worked really hard on that. I'm proud of that. Well, let's get that back on the people's shelves and on their reading list.

[00:47:53] Okay. So Twisted head, twisted hand, and you know, someday I know you are working on something having to do with nineties New [00:48:00] York and I would love to work on something where that book leaves o leaves off in eighties. Mm-hmm. , New York. Mm-hmm. . Um, , you know, and then I'm always working on a lot of, uh, my own projects that are in various stages, mostly for tv, right?

[00:48:13] In various stages of potentially happening. And then what you try to do is get an actual paying job so that all your. So they're all your speck work. Yeah, exactly. You know, can get, can get funded by something. And so I do have totally understand that. Have a show that I'm, uh, that I'm working on that, that we hope will make it to the full series order.

[00:48:35] Um, it's an FX show. It's really terrific. It's not mine. I was hired to work on it and, uh, and it's great. So right now I'm waiting to hear, you know, do I have. January, February, March and beyond, um, where I'm occupied and getting paid and so on. Don't know Right? Don't know. Check back so then you can work on your other stuff.

[00:48:56] That's, I love to do that. I love to shuttle and I, you know [00:49:00] what, Wanda, not all writers love becoming immersed in someone else's work. Mm-hmm. . . But if I like that other work, I am happy as can be being com fully immersed in, in your world. Mm-hmm. , you know, writer's Room to me is a really fun place to be. Um, the problems that come up trying to figure out.

[00:49:21] I love those problems. I love, right? I love puzzles. It's a puzzle. I love the process of it. . I, I love a set. I love production. Not all writers like to cover. They call it covering your episode when, right, right. Your episode, you basically produce it. You need to be on set every minute, and you have a lot to do.

[00:49:39] You're not just sitting around. Mm-hmm. and I love that. Oh, I see. I mean that, but it's not so easy to get that work. To get the work. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And these days, , it's even better. So it's, it's really fractured. There's so many outlets and so it's super competitive. Right, right, right. Yeah. So that's some of what's going on for [00:50:00] me and what's going on with you.

[00:50:01] I think you, well, you have something this weekend that I'm planning to attend. I do. I do. And I'm excited that you'll be there. I am doing a burlesque brunch. It'll be the second one, okay. It's a, a fun community.

[00:50:14] Brunch cuz now we're partying in the day, in the daytime, you know, and it's at Inin, which is, you know, a mainstay classic restaurant in New York. It's been there 35 years. 35 years. Right across the street from the public theater. Exactly right across from the public, which, you know, it's always so much fun to go to the public and then go there for dinner or vice versa.

[00:50:34] Yeah. Or vice versa. Yeah, exactly. I love it. Oh, I can't wait. 

[00:50:38] And then, you know, before I. I dunno if you'll mind me asking, , before we started this, we talked a little bit about, there's a documentary in the works right now. I'm really cur, I'm curious about it. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for asking. , I have been working on this documentary project with my director, Karen Song, who has mm-hmm.

[00:50:56] Also helped on this podcast in the early episodes of this [00:51:00] podcast. Mm-hmm. On a documentary film that is based on lesbian visibility, that moment of lesbian visibility in the early nineties. Mm. With the Nexus being a party that I started in 1993 at a place called Cafe to Back, hence the name of this podcast, Sundays at Cafe to Back, uh, which is bringing it back to.

[00:51:25] you know what we started back then? Yeah. And it's a, it's a really interesting and intricate story woven with many, um, , political, national, um, community changes that were happening mm-hmm. in the early nineties. And what propelled, you know, this moment of, uh, lesbian visibility, which had not really been seen.

[00:51:54] Prior. Right. So, you know, in, in the quest to try to like, figure out what happened there. We've [00:52:00] discovered so many things, so I, I really can't wait to be able to share and Wow. Yeah. And show. So yes, now we're in. what we would call post. Mm-hmm. . We're working on a rough cut. We've, we've whittled it down from 68 interviews to three hours, and now the three hours have to go down to like an, you know, an hour 20.

[00:52:19] Wow. But like with any independent, independent documentary, film, project takes a village to get this done, you know, so we need to raise more funds and, mm. You know, get more help, but we're on track and we, you know, we hope that we can keep pushing forward. But yes, anybody that wants to support and donate to this film, Cafe ti back film.com and it is a tax deductible donation through women Make movies who's our fiscal sponsor.

[00:52:48] I imagine you could do a GoFundMe uh, campaign. We've the Kickstarter, we've had wonderful fundraising events and we're very, very appreciative of everyone that's supported [00:53:00] us thus far. We just have to get to that next milestone. Yeah, it's always so any kind of indie filmmaking, this is the whole Money, money.

[00:53:07] Oh, it, it's difficult. And like what you were saying earlier, you know, we need the jobs to get us to be able to paying jobs, to get us to be able to work on these independent projects. You know, and when you get those paying jobs, you have to put the independent project to the side because you can can't, you know, it's hard to do both.

[00:53:25] can't do both. But, but in a, in a, in, in a perfect world, they really, they kind of meld in with each other really nicely. They just, uh, ideally, yes. So we hope we. Let's hope that two look, it's the new year. It's the new year in 2023. There's a perfect balance. It's gonna happen in, in 23. We're super excited and we, yes, we're the goal and the mission is out there.

[00:53:44] So yes. All right. But Carl Wanda, thank you. Thank you so much for coming to the studio. It's been, thank a pleasure as always to see you and talk. You too, to you, you, too much success on the FX show and thanks. And your [00:54:00] continued, uh, endeavors and, and folks out there. Please go out and look for Twisted Head, an Italian American memoir, Carl's memoir.

[00:54:10] I think you'll really enjoy it. Thanks, Wanda. Thanks so much. Thank you.