Foot Health Fundamentals in Sheep with MSD Animal Health

We’re talking feet on this week's podcast! Guests Jim Walsh, Veterinary Technical Advisor at MSD Animal Health Australia, and Kim Kelly, Veterinary Technical Advisor at MSD Animal Health New Zealand,join Mark in a fantastic discussion about effective solutions for improving foot health in sheep.

They dig into the issues of footrot and foot abscesses, covering effective diagnosis, management strategies, information on the Footvax® vaccine and the impactful role of genetics in strengthening sheep resilience to foot-health challenges.

Tune in to hear about:

• Effective strategies for managing foot health in sheep, including solutions for footrot and foot abscesses.
• The role of genetics in improving sheep resilience to foot-related health issues.
• Practical tips on footbathing, vaccination and biosecurity.
• How to effectively use Footvax® vaccine.
• Proactive approaches to improve flock health and productivity.

Thanks to our sponsors, Allflex/MSD Animal Health, for joining us to chat about such an important topic for sheep producers. 

Head Shepherd is brought to you by neXtgen Agri International Limited. 

We help livestock farmers get the most out of the genetics they farm with. Get in touch with us if you would like to hear more about how we can help you do what you do best: info@nextgenagri.com.

Thanks to our sponsors at MSD Animal Health and Allflex, Heiniger Australia and New Zealand, and ProWay Livestock Equipment. Please consider them when making product choices, as they are instrumental in enabling us to bring you this podcast each week.

Check out the MSD range HERE

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Check out ProWay's product range HERE

Transcript

Sheep Feet Health Challenges and Solutions

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome back to Head Shepherd . We're going trans-Tasman today , joined by a couple of vets , one either side of the ditch . We've got Jim Walsh , based in Australia , and Kim Kelly , based in New Zealand . Welcome , fair of you .

Speaker 2 0:10

Hey Firk , how are you ?

Speaker 1 0:12

Good , good , great to have you along , and we're talking feet today , which is everyone's favourite topic . Sadly , one of my things that we do like to talk about . Before we get into feet health andep we might just get a quick intro from each of you . We'll start on this side of the ditch , kim .

Speaker 2 0:26

Cool thanks . So I have been a vet for way too long , nearly 30 years . I actually started off my job in hot merino country , central Otago , having grown up somewhere where there was no merinos , so I had a crash course in feet from a very young age and blood testing full-walled marino wrinkly rams as a new graduate was character building um . So my area is the uh lower . I cover the technical advisor for the lower half of the south island for msd new zealand perfect .

Speaker 1 0:58

Thank you , jim .

Speaker 3 0:59

We'll switch to you yep , so I've been a vet for longer than Kim . That's very much too long . Then my background I grew up in a mixed sheep property in the southern tablelands of New South Wales and did my vet work for a while , but I currently have worked for MSD for 10 years now as a technical advisor . I'm based in the Southern river arena and I cover south australia , northern vic and southern new south wales , but we cover a fair area when things pop up . So that's me .

Speaker 1 1:30

So yep excellent right , I thank you . We'll cut to cut to the chase which . So we're talking about feed , health and it's a significant problem in sheep . What are the sort of common diseases , problems in sheep feet that you see as you travel around the pair of you ?

Speaker 2 1:43

jim do . Do you want to go first ?

Speaker 3 1:44

Yeah , so I do quite a bit of sheep work . I suppose my background growing up , where I grew up , we actually had a significant feet health issue . We had 800 mil rainfall and we had cross spreads and marinas and all sorts of different challenges and you know we had the typical foot abscess type thing . We had an outbreak of virulent foot rot in my late university career . So I got the experience of attempting to eradicate virulent foot rot from our place , which was we followed all the rules and I think we succeeded . I know we succeeded in eradicating virulent foot rot but we certainly had ongoing benign and intermediate strains , I'd say at different times In my travels now through the Riverina .

Speaker 3 2:26

We have wet summers . We certainly see foot rot outbreaks of varying levels of virulence . In other years we see a lot of foot abscess , a lot of heavy ewes and heavy rams that crash in a wet autumn , wet summer and they're probably the two biggies . And certainly in flood times , which you get sometimes on the plains sort of through northern Victoria and southern New South Wales , we'll see a bit of strawberry foot rot and all fire sort of proliferating on feet . So we get the whole spectrum I suppose . But I would say that foot abscess and foot rot are the two biggies for me .

Speaker 2 3:02

I'd agree . From over here we generally get a little bit more rainfall than they do over there . In fact , at the moment we're having a month's rainfall in a day apparently . So foot abscess is certainly a problem right at the moment and very seasonal though . Right so wet spring will lead to a lot more foot rot in the typically dry areas of the country . But at the moment I would agree with Jim that foot rot and foot abscess would be the two biggies we see .

Speaker 1 3:29

Cool . So I mean OID , or avionic digital dermatitis , or SCOLD . Is , I guess , a lot of lambs running around in spring , some of them looking like they're running on walking on hot tin roof at the moment . That's probably SCOLD rather than the other two you've mentioned . Or OID sorry moment that's that's probably scald rather than the other two you've mentioned or oid , sorry , yeah , I think that's , and um , it's always topical .

Speaker 3 3:48

The question comes is it , is it scald or is it oid , or is it foot rot ? And it's actually really tricky and um , um , but certainly you're right in , we get I'm in the irrigation area here , so we certainly get a lot of red , hot pastures and you certainly get lame sheep and and I do think it's oid when , when the question comes to me , I always go back and say , well , is your history on farm ? What are the other sheep doing ? And I think you can sort of start to narrow things down a little bit . And um , but yeah , school is certainly something that is topical and a concern for people because you don't know where it's going to go . So you've got to . I suppose people are very aware and very conscious of , uh , watching and waiting , but yes , in lambs it's an issue for sure yeah , I'm going to go straight off script , but um , the the oid you mentioned hot pastures , is it ?

Speaker 1 4:31

is it legume in the pasture , just shading and moisture , or is there something to do with what they're eating ?

Speaker 3 4:36

yeah , well , I I mean , I think it's probably a little bit of both . I think there's a . You know , I certainly think a high , high energy and high protein diets and maybe mild laminitis and subacute acidosis and all that sort of thing can certainly contribute to lameness and issues and inflammation . But then you've also obviously got the irritation for wet pastures and moisture and all those things . As with a lot of lameness issues , there's a combination of things . Yeah , I suppose that's my experience , kim . What are your thoughts ?

Speaker 2 5:06

yeah , same , I definitely think you see it more on , and I don't know if it's the fact that there's more pasture there that they're standing on because it's longer and denser , that they're in good old rye grass . I don't know if it's because of that . But I agree with jim is that I think there must be something happening on the inside of their like , a sort of a , like a hoof inside of their hoof that's predisposing them to stand in a different way , and then they're standing in this wet area . So , yeah , I think that's a question for you that probably no one knows the complete answer to yet . It's an area to look into , for sure .

Speaker 3 5:41

Yeah , you're right , jim , there's a lot we don't know . That's right .

Speaker 1 5:45

That's the beauty of biology there's always something for us to find out , and my favourite answer being it depends .

Speaker 2 5:53

We must use it .

Speaker 3 5:56

I use that one a lot .

Speaker 1 5:59

Depending on where you live , and more probably in your neck of the woods , Jim than Kim's . But foot rot has , or virulent foot rot particularly , is sort of a bit like leprosy . There's Australian legislation in place to restrict trade and therefore sort of people tend to want to have benign foot rot rather than virulent foot rot and therefore will say that's what they've got , regardless of what it is . But yeah , I guess just to make clear of where that sort of blurry line is between what would be called a virulent strain of foot rot and a benign strain of foot rot and sort of maybe just walk us through that area a little bit , yeah , look , I think , Ferg , it is a blurry line .

Speaker 3 6:35

I think the issue we have in Australia is the states aren't aligned in their approach to diagnosis , like if there are control restrictions about even alignment of control restrictions and requirements , and then you have the state borders that are quite leaky , so you have sheep that will move from regulated states into non-regulated states . So it is a major discussion about what is virulent foot rot and what isn't . And also because of that difference , the non-alignment between states , we sort of get a bit of , I suppose , denial , head in the sand type stuff , as well as the stigma associated means people don't go looking for help , I suppose . So I think the one that I , the position I fall back on , is what's presenting in the field . So it's a lot of foot scoring goes on over here with percentages and how bad the scores are and how many sheep , and I personally like that approach as a true expression of what might be happening . The trouble with that is that you know if the environment isn't allowing expression , then it doesn't sort of tell you what strains potentially can do . And that's where the laboratory support comes in .

Speaker 3 7:41

And again the issue that we have here is there's not alignment in the laboratory support and interpretation , I suppose between states . So it is . I suppose again I'll go back to that it depends , because it depends what state you're in as to what happens , and that does become confusing . I do feel for the producers at times , because I think they go , they shrug their shoulders and go well , what do I do ? So that probably hasn't answered the question , but I do believe in the field , diagnosis stuff , and that does depend on breed , environment , seasons and all that stuff . But at the end of the day it's about clinical expression for me . So that's where I go to , or think we should be going to .

Speaker 1 8:21

So in theory your benign strains don't have the same keratinase or whatever , so they actually can't well they shouldn't be able to underrun very much . Is that the kind of yeah , that's right .

Speaker 3 8:30

So we're not getting the anic running across the hill , we're not getting the number of feet affected , because there's not . So not the same less sheep , less feet and the degree of underrun . And that degree of underarm is obviously what we can base our scoring on . And then we start counting feet and what percentage of feet are affected , what number of sheep are affected and what number of feet are affected , and there's the magic grid that allows you to point to a , you know , benign , intermediate or virulent strains , I suppose at that time on that farm . So is that something ? Is the foot score ? I know , turg , I think you do a fair bit of foot scoring , do you ? Or is that part of yeah ?

Speaker 1 9:07

Yeah , yeah , I mean we do it in the or we do it hoping we've got a virulent strain and then look at how animals react to that virulent strain essentially . And so we and we say different expression , which is back to your breed point . Like within a flock you'll have a sheep or a whole sire group that don't have any underrunning and another sire group that will be full of underrunning . And so , again , if you're characterising , if they were subgroups , you're characterising on a farm , one would be declared a benign strain and one would be declared a virulent strain , but they'd be the same strain .

Speaker 1 9:35

But anyway , that's the challenge , obviously , and I mean obviously , yeah , it's , whatever you've got , it can cause issues . I , whatever you've got , it can cause issues . I guess maybe , if we move on to I mean , there is massive social stigma around it , even in New Zealand , where it's kind of there's no government interaction but you're still , still people don't like it's not the first thing you bring up in conversation that you've got for it right , like it's sort of . And yeah , so I guess what I see travelling around and maybe I'll declare my hand first and then you can tell me whether you support it or not , but I see heaps of particularly , I guess , more benign strains , but I think you sort of get to the point where you've got Ferrari lying , almost Like there's a lot , depending on where you are in Australia or New Zealand , there's a lot of foot stuff around that people probably just don't want to have or don't want to talk about .

Sheep Foot Rot Awareness and Solutions

Speaker 2 10:18

Yeah and they don't , and it can vary right between seasons . So they can say , oh , I haven't got foot rot on my farm , and you know full well that they have . It's just that in this particular dry season they're not seeing any clinical signs of it . So , as you said , they either have admit they've got it or they're lying . There's an extent there will be foot rot-free properties , no doubt but , they may not know who they are .

Speaker 1 10:48

Yeah , and I think , yeah , you're right and I love Australia , particularly Jim , where there's sort of a place that sort of likes to believe it's foot rot-free but runs a hell of a lot of workshops on foot rot for a place that doesn't have it , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 3 11:01

Look , it's sort of an ongoing discussion . I actually pulled up some numbers from the endemic disease update from 2022 and it was actually encouraging to see a little bit of , I suppose , acknowledgement that there is a widespread issue we talk about . You know , new South Wales are saying they've got 60% of properties , have got a benign strain . Yeah , right , one and a half percent are looking at intermediate or virulent strains Tassie's 40% and 25% of the virulent strains and intermediates Victoria's 50% . So there is an acknowledgement of a lot of them . Yeah , good , yeah , which is that's from reporting , but I suspect the farming community doesn't . Actually they'd probably be surprised to hear that , but it's actually . I suppose that was actually quite encouraging that there's an acknowledgement , it's an issue and the cost of it is significant .

Speaker 1 11:45

So , yes , and that would almost be a direct representation of the higher rainfall proportions of those states you mentioned . Almost , you're exactly right .

Speaker 3 11:52

So when you start , narrowing down to which corner of the state's got the higher rainfalls . That's where the numbers suddenly go through the roof back up to a Tasmanian type situation where they're talking you know , if you add it up there's sort of 65 , they're saying 80% of properties in Tassie have actually got foot rot . Going on , something's going on .

Speaker 1 12:08

Yeah , and I guess the reason we're talking about that is because we're trying to break the social stigma . Like it's the same as having fly strike or clostridial disease or a million other things that we have in sheep . Like it's just one of those things that are part of if you're going to be running sheep , you're going to have sheep diseases and that's just how it rolls . I mean we need to get away from dressing about that and working about the solutions rather than sort of pretending we haven't got it , because that's not a nice point .

Speaker 3 12:31

Yeah , and not only that , Ferg , I think , because there's a fear of a diagnosis , then you don't actually go and get help for the other causes of lameness which can be very impactful at times . So that's actually to me the major concern .

Speaker 1 12:43

So , yeah , yeah , I guess there is a bit of well , there's a million sort of folklore when it comes to sheep feed and foot rot , so we'll cover a few of them . But I guess one big one is that kind of some properties have kind of got foot rot and they'll live in the soil for years or whatever . I think people really do need to understand that . It's not like it's in the sheep mostly , it's not often off the sheep , and so if the sheep are clean , then the farm is clean pretty much . So how long can we ? I guess it's one of those , probably it depends answers . But what's the sort of maximum we can expect bacteria to live in , like the foot rot bacteria to live in the soil ?

Speaker 3 13:18

Kimmy , I'll hand ball this one to you .

Speaker 2 13:32

Yeah , so it depends . You went to vet school more recently apparently

Management of Foot Rot in Livestock

Speaker 2 13:34

. Um , we're talking about the other day and I think we said seven . Did we say seven days in pasture , normally jim and then , but it could be a little bit longer if it's in mud and stuff . So maybe 14 days in mud , seven days in pasture , is that kind of a standard , do we agree ?

Speaker 3 13:43

yeah , yeah , I think there's a recent paper a few years ago now that talks about 14 days in mud , which I suppose puts a bit of a different thinking about maybe spelling paddocks and things at different times .

Speaker 1 13:56

But yes , that's , that's where I sit seven days and 14 days in mud and you'd imagine that's a decay curve , like there'll be heaps there and day one and none by day 14 .

Speaker 1 14:05

So by the time you get it out to seven plus you're probably the population . And I mean it's an anaerobic bacteria , so it can't be , it's got to be hidden away somewhere , buried down , and then obviously an exposed foot has to hit that bacteria . So it's kind of , when you think about the chances of spreading it , it seems low , but obviously it's quite good at it , but the um but uh yeah . So I mean I guess the point is , if you spell it for a couple of weeks , then like if you took all the sheep off a farm for we'll say , three weeks to be really careful , then there is there should not be any fought right on that possible on that farm , and I guess we always , like you said , kim's , a lot of people think , oh , it's gone , but and then they blame the magpies for bringing it back or whatever . But the reality it's just been hanging around in a sheep's foot somewhere and little pockets , and I think any of us that have paired a few feet looking for it .

Speaker 2 14:47

It's amazing , some of the little pockets that hide away Tiny pocket and you dig deeper and there it is right , yeah yeah , yeah .

Speaker 3 14:55

I think the other one that gets forgotten a little bit is that co-grazing with cattle . I sort of think a lot of people don't realise that . You know we can get carriers of any virulence that may not don't express in the cattle world , and you know I get asked sometimes about how long can cattle carry it for , and I can't find any data or sort of solid discussion about that one . Have you come across anything , kim or Fergie ?

Speaker 2 15:18

No , but the other thing we have here is we have a lot of farmed deer and there's some deer that are in shared areas not necessarily the same paddocks , but shared areas and so that's going to . I have seen deer with what appeared to be initially we thought it wasn't sure if it was school , but we're not sure whether it was schooled or whether it was actually perhaps a little bit of foot rot right , it's just an area , but as far as how long it could jump from one to the other , we don't really know .

Speaker 1 15:46

No , yeah , yeah . I guess that's anyway . So yeah , so co-grazing , and then I guess you've got wild deer coming and going is another challenge as well , it is .

Speaker 3 15:55

That's actually a growing challenge in our part of the world that the feral deer population has exploded . So I think that's something that we probably haven't considered enough in in australia , so that's something that we need to be aware of .

Speaker 1 16:05

So yeah , and it kind of probably lines up with the thinking that the people that stress most about in wetter areas , people stress most about foot rot , are the ones that don't have it . Um , because you're always worried about those incursions of anyone , you've got a completely naive mob of sheep and and when they do get it , we've all seen how exciting that can be and so , yeah , so that's with those different incursions , it's either sheep coming through fences or deer jumping fences . There's a reason that people stress when you're completely clear , when you're stressed about getting it , yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 1 16:37

Obviously Australia's had a red hot go at eradication and hasn't been successful . There's a combination of factors that sort of make eradication really difficult . I mean , and obviously weather is the key one that you can kind of get lucky with the weather or really unlucky , and it's a massive disease of the weather . What's the likelihood of sort of successfully eradicating the disease , and why is getting rid of virulent easier than getting rid of benign ?

Speaker 3 17:05

Yeah . So if we look at Australia , right , ferg , we've had a long time I mean having lived and farmed and vetted in New South Wales for the majority of my life and with the foot rot control program that started in the early 90s , you would have thought if we could have eradicated virulent foot rot , we should have . We've had significant droughts where , if there is a and there certainly is a natural healing and process but there's obviously caries that survive through the dry times . So I suppose it's that part of the weather issue where things go into the little cracks , nooks and cracks in sheep's feet and survive through , you know , multiple years probably , and express in the next wet time and you think you haven't got an issue and you may not have an issue . And the other issue is that sheep moving to a new environment , that you would and I think people do very often , probably most of the time , declare their feet , their sheep , clean of a virulent foot rot , which is part of our sheep health statements , and it's only when they move to a new environment that it actually expresses . So there's that concern , there is the stigma stuff and the people putting their head in the ground , but I actually don't think that's the major issue .

Speaker 3 18:10

I just think it's a very hard disease to actually manage and control and the virulent stuff unexpressed in certain environments and certain breeds we certainly have . You know a lot of your British breeds will carry strains of foot rot that if they get into a fine wool merino flock , a merino flock will express excessively and strongly . And so that's another issue . And I think if we start looking at the critical control point for an eradication program is the summer inspections and you can certainly if you've got virulent strains you can actually find it because it expresses well . The benign strains are less the intermediate or lesser than intermediate strains just don't express as much so they're just hard to detect at that critical control point . So you know , I just think that's a large part of the issue , that things don't express when you're looking sort of thing . Do people actually try and eradicate in New Zealand or do we live with it ? I think possibly .

Speaker 2 19:00

I think , possibly , I think the thing that you can do everything perfectly on your farm , but unless you're a completely closed biosecure farm , it's a chance , right , it's opened up . So I guess we have farmers who will say , not just for foot diseases , for everything else . They will suggest that they will be trying to eradicate something . And then you turn around and find out that they're not a closed property , they're not biosecure . Um , you know , I would challenge people to say that they are , especially these extensive high country properties . I don't think they're completely biosecure and so , unless you can ensure that , I always do a talk and show a picture of Alcatraz , the island , and I'm saying that it's pretty easy to get that biosecure , but more like that . But they try that , they try to . That's why they put it there , right , to keep people there . But other than that , I think it's a struggle and I think maybe we need to stop trying to say , okay , we're going to eradicate it and look at , as you said , like you are in Australia , more of a control program .

Speaker 3 20:08

Yeah , and I think that's a good point , kim . I think in say Victoria , where there's less requirement to eradicate . I think the starting point of the conversation is if you can eradicate , can you keep it out ? And if you can't keep it out , if you're a trader , if your fences aren't great or you've got ongoing biosecurity issues , it's very expensive to take on an eradication program . And if in two years' time you're back to square one , is that the right thinking ? There's not that much margin to drop , really .

Speaker 1 20:35

So yeah , and I guess there's enterprises like seed stock enterprises where it's in their interest to be free of lots of diseases , um , and feed being one of them , and and the major , but then in again in new zealand because it's kind of more socially acceptable . I suppose there's plenty of people that see stock , that have some form of . In fact we rely on , without testing , to have some form of leaky there that we can put under pressure and see which ones get it the worst . And and often if you've got it at home , then that's a safer place to buy a RAM than one that hasn't got it , because at least you know it's been challenged . But anyway , we'll get into that as we go through . We'll just really quickly sort of touch on OID or SCOLD just the difference between sort of what that is and isn't , I suppose in terms of foot , foot rot and OID . I mean it's obviously just not the doses isn't present . Is that the big difference ?

Speaker 2 21:22

Essentially right . So you've got half of it there and not the other half , but it's kind of a continuous scale , right ? As you said earlier , oid a lot of stuff that is probably early foot rot gets called OID . Yeah , and maybe vice versa . Maybe stuff that people think it might be actually foot rod is school . But , as Jim said , if they've got history and look at all the other stuff , often lambs like really often lambs in the spring which are lame is probably and we hate saying that OID . But Jim , do you think that would be a fair comment ?

Speaker 3 21:59

No , I agree . I think time you know time's a wonderful thing it will allow expression of underrunning if it's there , if there's no doses there and I've certainly seen very young lambs with underrunning and early-stage underrunning and depending on how long you let it go for before you actually sort of suppress that expression of disease , you can sort of get a picture of how nasty the bug might be . But of suppress that expression of disease , you can sort of get a picture of how nasty the bug might be . But if with time it doesn't develop into underrunning , then it's probably scald . But probably scald depends . And they're probably great words , aren't ?

Speaker 1 22:30

they yeah , Couldn't have a vet talking about having some sort of probably underpins or a scientist of any description . I should say yeah , so obviously OID or scald is other bacteria or other inflammation , just not the causative one that's got the keratinase that becomes underrunning .

Speaker 3 22:49

Yeah , that's right and I suppose that is the other option . If people really want to look , they can go swabbing and find adenidosis and suddenly you can say , well , that's actually the foot rot bacteria . And if you want to go further , you can sort of check if your elastase is an active impact and things like that . So there is that pathway but I suspect a lot of people won't go , wouldn't give it time and treatment and see how they respond .

Speaker 1 23:09

Yeah , all right , we've talked plenty about the disease , so we might start talking about how we fix it or how we manage it more as a better way of talking about that . But I guess what we see out there is those that are consistent with their management and have a good plan in place . Probably infrastructure are the ones that kind of with or without a nine whatever they want to call it they're the ones that kind of end up with an effective management strategy and probably has the least impact on their profitability and sheep welfare . What's the sort of components of an effective management strategy ?

Speaker 3 23:42

Yeah . So , Kim , do you want to take this one on ?

Speaker 2 23:46

I'll do a couple and then you can do a couple .

Speaker 3 23:48

All right , sounds good , how's ?

Speaker 2 23:49

that .

Speaker 1 23:50

You start with it , you do the easy ones , kim .

Speaker 2 23:52

I'll do the easy ones and then I'll leave him the hard ones . You're not silly , I'm not silly .

Speaker 2 24:03

I guess . Well , I've already talked about one the look at the biosecurity so that what comes on and off onto your farm is one . You're going to talk about genetics Ferg , so I'm not going to talk about that .

Foot Rot Management Strategies

Speaker 2 24:11

So quarantining I said I wrote a list the thing such as looking at something before it comes on your property to make sure it doesn't have issues and not just if it's limping or not , is not a good enough way to diagnose it . It's not an option , right ? So we talked about and it's been controversial , right trimming feet .

Speaker 2 24:34

So a diagnostic trim to have a look and see if there's actually something going on . You've got the underrunning compared to a full trim that you might need if you know that there's a foot that's got the problem with it . So trimming is part of it , for sure . Foot bathing we have there's still a little few people over here that use formalin , but most people have moved away from that and are using zinc sulfate . But actually good segue to you , jim , you were talking the other day about something from that and are using zinc sulfate . But actually good segue to you , jim . You were talking the other day about something else that they're using in their foot baths . Do you want to share that with the team .

Speaker 3 25:07

Yeah , so the sodium lauryl sulfate . So basically a wetting agent , detergent that allows a bit more penetration . It was back in the uh in my early days as a young vet a long time ago . There was a product called foot right out there that was um , basically already a zinc 10 zinc sulfate with , I think , one percent sodium lauryl sulfate , uh pre-mixed and used as foot bath and that was ready to use and using great volumes in the early 90s where I used to work um . But these days you can buy that sodium lauryl sulfate um separate to your zinc sulfate bags and do your own mix . And look , I think it was certainly better than straight zinc sulphate , I suppose . But zinc sulphate , 8-metre foot bath through zinc sulphate is sort of what's recommended here , walk through and as a control it's been long accepted as a good control of spread type tool . That one Is that 8-metre storeys at your torque over there as well .

Speaker 1 26:04

A lot of standing here , a lot of standing for 20 minutes .

Speaker 3 26:06

Yeah , yeah , certainly that gets done here , but not as much , I suppose .

Speaker 1 26:11

Yeah yeah , I suspect . Yeah , the sodium or sulphur one is a question I'll get a little bit . So it's just speeding up penetration of zinc into into the into the hoof , yeah my understanding is .

Speaker 3 26:25

I think it's a bit like standing . My understanding is with the saline oral sulfate , or standing for a length of time that just allows a sort of a depth of the zinc to sit in the hoof and then pay out over the next length of time . So allows probably lets you not have to foot bath as often to control , I suppose , is my understanding .

Speaker 1 26:45

Yeah , yeah , Ken , we might just go back to that diagnostic trim . So if I'm buying five rams , I'm bringing one to my farm and I want to be clear . That's like foot shears plus a knife into actual groove and sort of cleaning out all the little spots that it could hide and making sure , yeah .

Speaker 2 27:03

So rather than sort of going , it's like an exploration mission , right Going and starting the trim . And well , I mean visually looking at the foot between the toes and everything to begin with , and then doing the , just not just trim it right back until it bleeds .

Speaker 3 27:21

It's not what we're talking about .

Speaker 2 27:23

We're talking about sort of nipping away until you find an area that you're not happy with and then , as you said , using a little knife or a little something to dig in there and see how far it goes if it is truly underrun , Not chop it down until it's really really short and looks pretty . It's not really a diagnostic trim .

Speaker 1 27:44

Yeah , cool , just wanted to clarify that . And then is there any other ? I mean , I know some people part of their quarantine process will like , will drop them onto grates , obviously off the trailer or whatever , so that they're not going onto the farm . They've obviously quarantined from other sheep . They ideally aren't touching soil , they're trimmed . Is there a long-acting antibiotic that you would suggest ? Does that do anything , or is that just to make you feel better ?

Speaker 2 28:09

Jim , do you want to grab that one ?

Speaker 3 28:11

I suppose in my experience I mean , yes , that is done , I think , with low numbers of high-value stock coming out of farmers as a cover-your-tail type exercise . I suppose my only comment about that is we know that antibiotics as a treatment tool they're not 100% and it's a bit of a that's not a trap . I think people are very aware of it . But relying on antibiotics to sort of guarantee an eradication is dangerous because you possibly end up with well you do , you end up with a percentage of sheep that don't respond or don't fully respond to the antibiotic and end up with what you do you end up with a percentage of sheep that don't respond or don't fully respond to the antibiotic and end up as carriers and that might break down in the future . So I think that's probably more important , if you're going down the eradication path or the control path and using antibiotics and those really bad feet , that you acknowledge that they're still carriers and they're still going to break down . But yes , Good point .

Speaker 1 28:59

So yes , so here we've um a walk through a lot of , I guess , a lot of people that get into that management sort of mindset . We'll just walk them out of it , walk them out through zinc every time in the yards . So that's more of a like you're just a bit of a safeguard , you know , you're just keeping disease at bay a little bit , which I think a lot of people have been really careful to continue to do . That have done a pretty good job of keeping things under control .

Speaker 3 29:20

What I guess what's next in our , in our management tool set so we uh over here footbaths is certainly used as a boost to the immune system . I mean , if we look at as Kim's talked about , it's about biosecurity and inspections and making sure that what you bring on you're avoiding sort of the issue where you can . I suppose we've touched on just briefly treating , but I do think if we're talking about control and the footbath thing's the major tool , but it depends on how much labour you've got and how well set up you are with infrastructures , how often you can do it . So that's where I think the vaccine discussion starts . There's currently in Australia and New Zealand and other places there is the Footvax vaccine , the multent vaccine . That um gives a level of protection against um reinfection .

Speaker 3 30:11

So we we talk about it being 80 effective against controlling spread and I think um that is certainly one of the tools that people in australia do use at times , depending on the situation

Strategic Use of Footvax in Sheep

Speaker 3 30:21

. It certainly helps labor it's . It is quite effective in keeping feet uh sheep up and walking and a lot of people here use it sort of pre-lamming to sort of make sure they get through that spring lambing period so the sheep don't crash while they've got lambs at foot . It's not a silver bullet . It doesn't sort of stop all infections , but it certainly keeps sheep fit and healthy . The welfare side of it's a very positive thing , and certainly the production side of it is positive as well . So I think that's another tool that probably needs to be considered .

Speaker 1 30:49

Yeah , and if we just drill into that for a little bit and you did mention silver bullet and that's what people love when , like every farmer ever including me when I have been running farms small lease blocks , everyone's looking for a silver bullet and obviously ideally we'd give them one jab and they'd be cured forever . That isn't the case , but I guess what is the best use case ? Actually , we've already talked about when that sort of works . But I guess what's that protection look like ? How would we maximise the ? It's not a forever vaccine , so we have to manage its use . So I guess what does best case use of footbacks look like ?

Speaker 2 31:31

Kimmy , you've been doing some more detailed research .

Speaker 2 31:32

Yeah , I guess that it's been around a long time and what we've found is some people have historically gone off recommending it or thinking that it didn't work , when I think the timing of the vaccination wasn't ideal .

Speaker 2 31:46

So , catering the time , the labels , I believe in Australia and New Zealand , both say the same . They say you're kind of looking , 12 , 16 weeks protection , so you've got to work backwards from when your risk period is . If your risk period is in spring , if it's going to be a wet spring or who knows the way , the weather's changing right , but given it , the risk period is probably all year at the moment , if it's going to be for spring , then you need to work backwards and think okay , so in the winter , that's going to be the time that I'm going to use it to give that cover for that period of time . We're checking , the labels are the same and so the Australian label and New Zealand label both say ideally two shots , but you do have a whole heap of flexibility from six weeks to 12 months between the first and the second shot . So there'll be farmers that will use two and then going forward they might just pop one in . As Jim said , before the spring , so that they've got those three or four months of the spring weather covered .

Speaker 1 32:47

So it's heightened performance , if you like . For want of a better term , is that 12 to 16-week period ? Is that post-second vaccination ? Yes , yeah , yes .

Speaker 2 32:59

Or post the booster .

Speaker 1 33:00

Yeah or post . Yeah sorry , yeah or post the annual booster .

Speaker 2 33:03

Yeah , it's not going to last for 12 months . So giving them a shot in July and expecting it to cover them for spring and the autumn , it's not going to work right . It's not going to , as you said , be a silver bullet that's totally going to remove the problem . So it's all about timing .

Speaker 1 33:25

Yeah , and we know like anti-vaccination obviously heats animals up a bit because obviously they've got to react , their immune system's . All about timing , yeah , and we know like any vaccination obviously heats animals up a bit as obviously they've got to react , their immune system's got to respond . So when you don't want to be doing it kind of the day the ram's going out , so it takes a bit of planning to make sure you've sort of got it at a non-critical period of the reproduction cycle and that sort of stuff .

Speaker 3 33:41

And Ferg , you said it planning's the essential part of it . So you know your rams , spermatogenesis , all that sort of stuff . You want to have them set up sort of before that critical time , so four to six weeks out at least . It is a . Any vaccine , as I said , will cause a systemic reaction and can upset things , but we don't think it's a big thing on ovulation and like that . So certainly you can . Okay , yeah , but I think a pre-lamming treatment , sort of four to six weeks out with the other clostridials or drenches or whatever you might be doing , is not a bad place to be putting it .

Speaker 3 34:08

And then you know there's certainly there's a lot of flexibility about when to use it and it does depend on when the spread period is . You know we've got places where I know it gets used into the spring , coming into the spring , lambing , and then if they've got a wet summer or they're running under irrigation , in that they might actually give a booster shot in December and suddenly you've sort of got through your sums . But certainly you've got to and that's an example of planning . So you know there's plenty of guys out there with spreadsheets and things about months , about when they go in and when they do their AMs , and just get really , because you do have to plan ahead . You can use it in the face of an outbreak because there is a bit of a curative claim but at the end of the day you don't want it getting away , so yeah .

Speaker 1 34:50

So if you're being in your replacement years , once you know who they are and then annually sort of pre-lam , then you'd sort of have a well , depending on when your risk period is , I suppose , as you just said . Yeah , and that's right .

Speaker 3 34:59

And it's sort of interesting in Australia because we have a sort , as you well know , we've got the spring lambers and then we've got the autumn lambers . So the guys are throwing rams out the next few weeks and you know , it will very much depend on what the autumn does as to whether they act . And I know plenty of guys last year that we've had a few wet summers here in Riverina and I should say that in the northern Victoria stuff and people were sort of setting up to protect their ewes during an autumn lambing and they didn't have to bother . They gave themselves a primer and they didn't bother with the booster because the autumn was quite dry here . But then they've got that up there slurred to give a booster coming into the spring , if it does get away from them in the spring .

Speaker 1 35:36

Yeah , it's good to know you've got 12 months to get that booster into them . Yeah , I guess the other end of the spectrum is there any ? What's the upper limit ? How many times can I be jabbing the foot vaccine to my sheep ?

Speaker 2 35:48

Good question . Good question it depends .

Speaker 1 35:51

Thank you . Thank you , the economics will probably pull you up , obviously .

Speaker 3 35:56

I actually think that's right , ferg . I've certainly had that comment where people are really desperate to get on top of things and they say I'm just going to vaccinate all summer and you've got to just stop and do your numbers . And it's at least strategic . Use your foot bathing through that If you get a bit of a thunderstorm through the summertime and you certainly can suddenly flare up . But you might just manage that with a foot bathing program that you might only require one or two foot baths and you're back to a dry and away you go again . So you've got to be a bit strategic about things .

Speaker 1 36:21

Yeah .

Speaker 3 36:22

But certainly there are plenty of people that vaccinate three times in a year , where they've got their wet summers and pivots and things like that in critical groups .

Speaker 1 36:30

So yeah , yeah for sure . One thing you mentioned infrastructure a couple of times and I think one thing I've witnessed people have sort of gone from clean to having foot rot and sort of tried to have temporary foot bars and moving stuff around . And I think the day you put in you just bite the bullet and put some infrastructure in to handle so you're not having to shift sheep a long way to get them through a bit of zinc . That's right . That's when you really that's when your life changes , then that's when you can actually get ahead .

Speaker 3 36:56

You're right , satellite yards and portal yards and things . You're right it does . It saves a lot of time and heartache and risk management stuff , time and heartache and risk management stuff . So I totally agree and you're right . You see people invest and it's a great investment .

Speaker 1 37:10

So it's expensive . Yeah , go and buy a truckload of concrete and some foot facts and hook into it , but yeah , it's certainly a real battle on this infrastructure there . Yeah , yeah , we've talked a fair bit about foot rod abscesses and we sort of talked about these before . But abscesses and sort of white line separation or shelly hoof , hoof , hoof are sort of commonly maybe confused with foot rod . Is there ? Yeah , I mean maybe just quickly talk about the differences and do you see much confusion out there ?

Speaker 3 37:41

Kim , you probably see a bit more foot abscess than me , I suspect yeah .

Speaker 2 37:44

I guess if people know how to have a pairing , we talk about the diagnostic pairing and trimming again

Sheep Foot Structure Genetics and Health

Speaker 2 37:54

. Um , the foot abscesses in my experience are often rams five minutes before they're supposed to go on with the use or twin bearing , use the five minutes before they're meant to lamb .

Speaker 2 38:05

Yes , before they're meant to lamb and often it's a generalisation , right . But they will be three-legged lame , they will be lifting their foot , they won't just be tender walking on a hot tin roof , as you said . They will actually be standing there with their hoof in the air and it's a bit swollen . And in that case if you're quick , straight in there with antibiotics , jim will , as a vet , when you go to a horse with a lame with a foot abscess , you will get instant recovery if you can find that abscess and dig it out . And these sheep with foot abscesses are kind of similar , right . They're really sore , the shelly hoof , the overgrown stuff . We don't see as much . But it's more individual cases than a flock problem . Like you'll see a few sheep with foot abscesses . You generally won't see a good proportion . Well , that's what it's like here , jim . Is there any difference ?

Speaker 3 39:01

Well , yeah , I suppose in preparation for this I actually started looking to shelly hoof a little bit and I think the general comment is probably we all know what Shelly Hoof is and basically it's a separation between the sole and the wall of the hoof and then basically the gap that opens up there can be very large and if it's often be not infected , so it's basically just a visual Direct transmission , it's not much lameness , but it also all depends .

Speaker 3 39:31

If it's that white line , then I think there's a lot of learning from the dairy industry and other species where you can certainly get infections up there that will sort of sit in pockets and break out the coronet and they can certainly be lame , and so I just think that it's probably a little bit underdiagnosed or we don't look closely because we've got such numbers , I suspect . But I do think that Shellyhoof at times does cause confusion to people who aren't going to step forward and get some advice or help and that reassurance and perhaps you've got to be careful you're not treating with antibiotics something it doesn't need treating with antibiotics and all that sort of stuff .

Speaker 3 40:08

So I do actually wonder whether we sort of need to think about that Shelly Hoof and that white line discussion a bit more , because I suspect maybe we don't hear about it , kim . So I know , with my background I mean I've run sheep all my life and you know when you're looking at feet you don't spend lots of time looking at them . But when you're looking at feet you don't spend lots of time looking at them . But you and I suspect I've moved . You know I haven't given it due attention , but that's probably you know that's because of a numbers game .

Speaker 1 40:32

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 3 40:35

But I do think there's probably confusion there . So yeah , yeah , yeah cool .

Speaker 1 40:38

And I guess that moves us into foot shape structure generally . It's all a mix of the things that are under some form of genetic control and I think I mean we've sort of got a project running at the moment . I hope well , I was probably hoping to find the wrong way to say it , but if we could find a foot abscess outbreak in some sheep with some pedigree , we'd be really keen to , kind of , because it is sporadic and often expressed in really heavy and heavily pregnant ewes and that's sort of like it's kind of the curse of good farmers , I reckon , like you get fat ewes with plenty of lambs on board and then bang , they've only got three legs to walk on . But I guess , yeah , we are really interested . We don't know the genetics of that , but it makes sense that all these things have some genetic component . But you would say , obviously you've mentioned merinos , but you'd say a fair few sort of breed differences or line differences as you travel around .

Speaker 3 41:25

Yeah , differences as you travel around , yeah , I think , uh , I totally agree , I I even with foot rot and disloyance in general , if you are , if you incorporate a culling program into your operation , then that's sort of a great way of well making the problem go somewhere else , but also it's a natural selection type tool . So it sort of , you know , supports the fact that , uh , genetics is really important . And I think you've touched on foot structure there . That's something . I think it's a bit of a lost skill over here . I think , um , certainly when I was growing up was very much a focus for everybody , but , um , I don't know that it is quite as much anymore and that may be wrong . Um , but as I wandered around a few places and look at foot structure , I think it's not that great a lot of places . So yep , so yep .

Speaker 1 42:06

Yeah , I think that's a good point and we've sort of I don't know we're bringing back the ancient art maybe , but the last three or four years we've been foot scoring . So we now score side shape , foot roll , foot twist , which has got nothing to do with , it's just a structural thing . But yeah , so we're scoring that on lots of animals these days . We've got animal health australia and awi supporting that , which is really cool . So anyone listening that is a seed stock producer and wants to get involved , make sure you get in touch with one of us .

Speaker 1 42:32

But yeah , we've certainly seen massive like I reckon , jumps forward with just getting really focused . Like everyone can convince himself it's a good sheep if you only look from the sort of hocks up . But but yeah , often and I think the beauty about scoring that we've found is that it forces you to stare at them properly . Like you're kind of you're right , jim , it's a numbers game , you're belting through them , but if you've actually got someone there whose job is to tell you the number , you have to stop and you have to look at every foot on that sheep and I reckon that's been the real game changer for us . Like you can kind of particularly a merino sheep to get excited by the wool and you forget about looking at everything else . Um and same . With a good crossbred shape , that's got a great car . Because , whatever , you get pretty excited and forget to look at the actual foundation bit that's gonna get them walking around on the they've got a walk .

Speaker 3 43:15

Yeah , yeah , yeah so so that's so .

Speaker 1 43:19

We're , um , we're hoping to get breeding values for those structural traits . There's already sort of versions of them but , um , we're hoping to get . This part of this project is to have , same as we've got in cattle , to have actual breeding base for foot structure so that we can because , certainly , as you'll know more than most , like it's such an environmental thing , some of these , like you go to one place that's had them on barley feeders or or running in clay , whatever . You've got a very different foot than one that's running around on the central otago on some rocks . Like it's a very different foot , foot structural and and we I mean for most of us it's impossible to tell what's genetic and what's what's environmental . You sort of rock up to a ramp , so on your great feet , has it been trimmed ? It's been run on rocks , has it been run on sand ? What's where ? Has it been ? What's it doing ?

Speaker 1 44:00

so yeah , very true then you add that to a bit of straw or a bit of sawdust or something that they're standing in and make it impossible to see .

Speaker 3 44:06

anyway , I agree , that's right . You have to walk them down the aisle . Yeah , yeah . So I mentioned what you're doing , ferg , with the genetic side of things too , with the actual genomes . Is that something that is ? What are your thoughts on that stuff ?

Genetic Factors in Foot Rot Resistance

Speaker 1 44:23

Yeah .

Speaker 1 44:23

So we've really clearly shown that there's massive genetic variation in foot rot susceptibility . And what we haven't done , which is what we're trying to do in Australia at the moment is to look at OID or scald separately . So we have always all of our challenges here have been full-blown nedosis present . But what we also want to do is say , well , if nedosis isn't present and there's just a scald outbreak , are the same sheep more or less susceptible to scald ? We want to be able to form that correlation because that sort of frees up . We don't need to have nedosis on farms to then find the resistant ones . That would be perfect if there is a favourable correlation there . But I mean anecdotally , which is scary , but maybe OID is actually a ramped-up immune system , so maybe the foot rot resistant ones have worse OID . It's like one . That'd be a bad outcome , but it's not impossible to kind of build that hypothesis . So that's the kind of stuff we want to unravel . But we're certainly here in New Zealand We've been going nearly 12 years with the foot rot work and yeah , it's amazing what genetics will do .

Speaker 1 45:25

It's just phenomenal . We've got breeding values now that are out to sort of . The numbers don't really mean anything but yeah , minus one type rams which are one full foot score better genetically . So that's a progeny average score two , which is not quite underrunning or whatever , but you'd have to have one , that's all . That animal is now only a score one , so it's got no foot right at all or even no ID at all . Yeah , so the power of genetics to change this game is enormous and all it takes is people to stop pretending that they haven't got it and just start scoring it . And we've got some really good breeders in New Zealand who have gone really hard at it , and same in Australia . There's a few guys there which have gone out of their way to make sure they've got challenges on lease farms and whatever to make sure , or put cull rams into cull challenges to get that outcome .

Speaker 1 46:15

And what we're seeing is that , yeah , being I think it's working on all aspects , like you can work on ewes and cull . We see a lot of people back when we started maybe people would cull ewes with foot rot and then they'd go and buy the rams from the same place in the same way they always had , and so half your genetics is always watering down any good work you're doing at home . So it's kind of helping people get both parts of that equation sorted . You can cull your ewes and then you make sure the rams you bring in are also resistant and so , yeah , the breeding value . It'll hopefully bring that breeding bay to Australia and then we'll be on the same sort of terms , which will be awesome , because what we know and everything with genetics , once you start measuring it , you can move it and until you measure it you've got no hope . And so it's been .

Speaker 1 47:01

Yeah , it's been really it's been great actually , like it's . Yeah , I've looked at way more feet than I thought I ever would need to , but it's , yeah , it is , I don't know , it's just to see and places now that kind of yeah , this time of year would be tailing ewes and culling 5% , 6% , 7% , 8% of ewes with bad feet . They're all running through the tailing yards and not having to cull those ewes , yeah , like just that shift . The people that have really gone hard at it , I think kind of not quite putting the digger through the zinc trough yet , but they're not too far away from that sort of where that bit of infrastructure is sort of going to sit there pretty idle , like the old spray dip did , I suppose .

Speaker 1 47:41

But yeah , and I think , yeah , the power of yeah and again , it's no silver bullet either . It's about you get the genetics right and then you get your vaccination program in place , you get your triophen . Like you don't , obviously , you probably get to a point where maybe they are genetically in a much better place , but you're still going to have a histogram , so there's still going to be some susceptible ones in there . So it's kind of . I think one of the beauty of the disease traits is that You're changing the environment as you're changing genetics , because there's less , if you've got less bacteria around , because you've got less really heavily infected ones .

Speaker 3 48:10

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 48:12

And that like there's not many . I don't think there's many things in livestock and ag where you get sort of free lunches , but this could be one of them where it kind of moves in a favorable way , quicker than what you wanted it to or what you thought it could , which is pretty cool yeah .

Speaker 3 48:25

That's really cool . Thought it could , which is pretty cool .

Speaker 1 48:26

Yeah , that's right , it's exciting it is good , anyway , we better wrap it up there . We're heading towards an hour which will put some sort of record on , so we um , but I guess for two guests we're allowed to go a bit longer . But um , I know kim's got a hard stop so we better get moving . But thank you very much for for coming along and sharing your extensive experience . It's been great to have a chat and we really appreciate the support of msd and great to have you guys on the road that that are out there doing it . People , obviously in their respective parts of the world , can get in touch with you if they've got animal health queries and um might , might want to have a bit of just , independent advice around feet absolutely happy to yeah we'll put your direct dials on the .

Speaker 1 49:02

I don't know what we'll do . Anyone put contact details on the on the show notes so people can find you , but they can get on the on the msd website and find you anyway , I'm sure . Or cooper's animal health in australia , um , but yeah . But thanks very much for your time and we'll look forward to chatting soon thanks excellent cheers .