105: Seventh Son

Join us as we discuss the American fantasy book "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card. Card has created a magical world of "knacks", "magic" and "superstition" located in the heart of the American Frontier in the 1800's.

See how many "Tale swappers" Joy and I give this book.

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Transcript

J Q (00:01.346)
Hello and welcome to Twin Talk. I'm Angie and I will be your host today along with my twin sister Joy. Today we're discussing the book Seventh Son by Orson Scott Card which was published in 1987. Angie and I first read this book back in high school in our English class probably around the 11th grade. Yeah the book is considered a work of American's fantasy and it's the first volume of The Tales of Alvin Maker. The series is about Alvin Miller the seventh son of a seventh son.

Seventh sons have strong knacks, which are specific magical abilities, and seventh sons of seventh sons are both extraordinarily rare and powerful. In fact, young Alvin appears to be the only one in the world. His abilities make him the target of the Unmaker, who recognizes his, sorry, recognizes his, I can't say the word, Alvin's powers as those of a maker.

The Unmaker works largely by water and tries to kill Alvin in his early years before he can master his abilities. I'm sorry, I just had to laugh. Say seventh son of a seventh son. Seven times. Especially if you have a list like Cindy Brady. Yeah, that was funny. I was thinking what if Cindy Brady had to read that passage? Okay. So as most of our listeners know, you and I are in our mid-50s, so when I say we read this in 11th grade, that's been a while. A long time ago. Yeah, so I don't know about you, but this book last a let...

it left a lasting impression on me. And I think it was because at the time I had never read anything like it before. And it really, really captured my imagination. But what about you? you say Yeah, same here. I feel like I just never really read a book quite like that before. And I did. It stuck with me. And I remember wanting to reread it as an adult. Yeah. And it's definitely a fantasy genre. I think we've kind of established the fact that you and I really aren't big fantasy fans.

Would you agree with that? agree with that. I always say I'm not a fan of fantasy genre, but I did like this book. Yeah, okay. So if someone were to come up to you and say, I'm thinking about reading The Seventh Son, how would you, in your own words, what would you tell them the book is about? I would tell them that the book is set in the 1800s during the expansion of the American frontier, that it's a mixture of folk, magic, superstition.

J Q (02:18.168)
It's about this little boy and his name's Alvin Miller and it's his struggle to survive against the unmaker, which kind of it's, you know, good versus evil. He's good and the unmaker's evil, I guess. He has multiple brushes with death and unbeknownst to him, he's being protected by a girl who was present at his birth. Yeah. And I have to say, you were talking about set in the 1800s and it's kind of like that pioneer era.

I can't stress enough how much this book depicts that setting. The author is very, very good about evoking just the names he uses for the kids. It's very quirky, but just for example, this family that Alvin's a part of, he's the seventh son, so that means he has six siblings. Their names are Measure, Want Not, Waste Not,

I'm going blank, of course. I lot of the names reminded me of the Puritans. Yes. I think at the time the Pilgrims come over here and all the Puritan writing, because you know they had names like those. Yeah, I kind of wish I would have written them down now because they're very interesting names. are. But there's a lot of really colorful, I can't think how I'm trying to say this, there's just a lot of colorful images throughout the book, but they all evoke that time period.

So this book, like most books, has its pros and cons. And the pros for me were that it was mainly that was entertaining. So it kept my attention because the author is so creative. And I really enjoyed all the passages about Alvin using his knack or his magical powers to do extraordinary things. And I thought it was interesting how the author used the theme of water as an enemy of Alvin. And you talked a while ago about there's a maker, there's an un-maker. Alvin, like you said,

Also, he almost died numerous times and water was always the source. Water was always trying to be his undoing. And the book is interesting to me because where most of your books, you know, like your epic novels, a lot of them are about, you know, good versus evil. Well, this book is as well. But really and truly, instead of him calling God good and the devil evil, he's like he uses different terminology. It is an evil force and a good force.

J Q (04:37.51)
but not in the sense that you and I would typically know it of God versus Satan. And I just thought of something too. In Huckleberry Finn, we talked about how the water was a safe place and that's where they were the happiest and most tranquil. But this is opposite, water is the enemy and always trying to kill the main character. Yeah, that's a good point. So what prose did you see in the book? So the prose were, I love the imagery that, you know, his writing produces beautiful imagery. And like you said, the names were so fun and inventive.

I never got bored. never wanted to stop listening. I always wanted to know what's going to happen next. I mean, honestly, the imagery throughout the book, I can't really say enough what a good writer he is. And he has the coolest name, Orson Scott Card. That's a really cool name for a writer. I'm just going to real quickly talk about, there was one scene in the book and they're crossing a river and the water rises up suddenly and it makes you think, hmm, what was behind the water rising up? Because she's pregnant.

with Alvin during this and in this scene it's very very well written and you can just see everything that's happening and the sons are out trying to save the wagon and one of them gets swept downstream and this little girl who's the seer she she can see what's going on and it talks about her seeing his what was it called his

His heart fire? His heart fire? think. But they're talking about it's his heart, his life. She can see that he's still breathing in her visions. then anyway, the mother has, I'm not trying to do spoiler alert here, kinda am, but anyway, the mother has the seventh son and the little seer, the little girl, they're like, is the oldest son alive? Because this is very important, because it means that this baby is a true seventh son. If the older brother is still living, then he's technically the seventh son. And then after Alvin is born,

she says, I see his heart fire go out. See, I didn't understand that because I thought even though the brother died, he stills the seventh son. I know, but for some reason they attached importance to... importance so that they all had to be living. That they all were living at the same time. Yeah. So the brother supposedly held on just long enough for Alvin to be born. Yes. And that scene, I don't know why, but it just deeply touched me because as a mother, and they're talking about this mother in the book, even after she had the baby, she was...

J Q (06:55.494)
she knew her eldest son had just passed away drowned in the river that they had just crossed. And she was mourning and she was heartbroken, which you would be as a mother. And it just, that just didn't really touch me. So anyway, so the cons of the book, and let's talk about that for a minute. So the cons of the book in my opinion was how the author portrayed one of the main characters. And he was a Reverend and his name was Philadelphia Thrower.

All his characters have these really cool names. Philadelphia Thrower. He was actually from Scotland. He was Scottish. He had come to build a church in the area because he felt like he had had this vision to come here and do this. But his character was actually written very well. And I thought that character was very interesting. But I was disappointed a little bit in the fact that he portrays this reverend or this preacher, as we would say, as misguided and consumed to the point that he actually becomes a tool of the unmaker.

And he no longer is a tool of God who he's actually trying to follow. And he don't even realize it. so even though, and the reason I say it's a con is because we've talked about this. As Christians, we get frustrated sometimes that it's always the Christian characters that get portrayed as being hypocritical or being the bad guy.

I agree. The one key person that's supposed to represent God and Christianity is portrayed in a negative way, misguided and not very likeable. And he actually becomes Alvin's ultimate enemy. I will say this and you know I had discussed this here last week, but it did make a good point. I think the author might have been trying to make a point that sometimes even though you're very zealous in your beliefs and you're trying to do the right thing that you can become so

You can become so consumed with the works and that you forget who you're working for and that you forget what your mission actually is. Yeah, maybe it's just a cautionary tale for Christians to keep your focus where it's supposed to be. Yeah, so I'm not gonna throw this author under the bus because I don't know that he just set out to intentionally make this guy look like the bad guy just because he's a Christian. So anyway.

J Q (09:07.271)
In this story, Reverend Thrower was so consumed with the Zilpher God that he tried to kill the young boy Alvin because he thought Alvin was wicked and because he didn't fit the ideal Christian mold that was in his mind. So what about you? Did you see any cons in the book other than that? That was my only con is I felt like he was misrepresenting Christians. But now that we just had that discussion, maybe it was just like I said, a cautionary tale and he's pro-Christian. He just is trying to let us see we can't, we got to keep our perspective.

And you know, we're serving God and it's not about works. Yeah. So just as a, you know, going along with the cons and you know, most people know you and I are Christians and the thing that we do need to caution people about is this, and we've already said it, but this book is full of magic and superstitions. so, you know, which to me as a Christian, I look at it as it's a book, it's a story. I'm not, it's not real. I'm not going to change my beliefs just because I read a book that

where an imaginary world where they use superstitions. And I think some of these are just based upon actual superstitions and folklore. And it's just kind of interesting to learn how people thought. Yeah, yeah. So I just looked at it as an entertaining type novel. It was very entertaining. But, you know, like I said, I'm not going to go out and just tell people don't read this because it's got this and that because, you know, it's a book. It's, know. So anyway, so can you guess my word rating? I don't think you're going to able to guess it. Oh, I know. I've been thinking about this. you have.

I don't think it's how many sons do you give it? No. You want me give you a hint? Yeah. It's one of the characters' names in the book. Oh lordy. And see, I can't remember all their And we haven't talked about this character, so... Okay, I don't know. is Okay, so there is a character in the book named Tail Swapper.

Oh yeah, I forgot about him. So there's another character that has a really cool name, Tail Swapper, because he would tell tales. He travels from village to village and retelling stories. Yeah, and he wants you to swap tales with him. So how many tail swappers do you give this I'm going to give this book four tail swappers. Wow, that's really good. Okay, so I

J Q (11:08.977)
as well because for this genre and for the type of book it is, it's very very well written and so I'll give it to Joy as well. writing. Yeah so we do have a couple passages picked out that we're going to read so that you guys can just get a real feel for what the author, what his voice sounds like. All right so Joy's going to read, you want to set this Yeah this is called the Spring House and it does have some beautiful writing in it and it's setting up a passage about, it's going to explain who Peggy is.

And just real quickly, Peggy, were talking about how there's a little girl that they call the seer that was that could see when you know the boy died. And so this is who is talking about as a little girl. The air in the spring house was cool and heavy, dark and wet. Sometimes when little Peggy caught a nap here, she woke up gasping like as if the whole place was underwater. She had dreams of water even when she wasn't here. That was one of the things that made some folks say she was a seer instead of a torch.

But when she dreamed outside, she always knew she was dreaming. Here the water was real, real in the drips that form like sweat on the milk jar setting in the stream, real in the cold damp clay of the spring house floor, real in the swallowing sound of the stream as it hurried up the spring house floor. Sorry, real in the swallowing sound of the stream as it hurried through the middle of the house.

Keeping it cool all summer long, cold water spilling right out of the hill and into this place, shaded all the way by trees so old the moon made a point of passing through their branches just to hear some good old tales. That was what little Peggy always came here for, even when Papa didn't hate her. Not the wetness of the air, she could do just fine without that. It was the way the fire went right out of her and she didn't have to be a torch.

didn't have to see into all the dark places where folks hid themselves. From her, they hid themselves as if it would do some good. Whatever they didn't like most about theirself, they tried to tuck away in some dark corner, but they didn't know how all of them dark places burned in little Peggy's eyes. Even when she was so little that she spit out her corn mash because she was still hoping for a suck, she knew all the stories that the folks around her kept all hid.

J Q (13:29.419)
She saw the bits of their past that they most wished they could bury, and she saw the bits of their future that they most feared. And that was why she took to coming up here to the Spring House. Here she didn't have to see those things, not even the lady in Papa's memory. There was nothing here but the heavy, wet, dark, cool air to quench the fire and dim the light so she could be. Just for a few minutes in the day, a little five-year-old girl with a straw puppet named

buggy and not even have to think about any of them grown-up secrets. See it mentioned about even when her dad didn't hate her. You think her dad hated her because apparently his dad's holding a torch. No, no pun intended there. She's talking about being a torch. He, sounded like he still held a torch for another woman besides the wife. And the fact that Peggy could see that, is that why he didn't like her? Cause she could see into his soul. I think he had had an affair.

Oh, okay. Because she talked about in a previous passage, I don't remember what it was, but anyway, she saw a lady with no clothes on. And I think he, so he knows that she can see into his heart and his mind. And so I think he knows that she knows. And so that's why. That's why he doesn't like her. Yeah, I think so. Okay, so I'm going set up this next passage real quickly. So the Reverend Thrower, you know, he's trying to do.

God's will and he keeps being visited by this strange visitor. He thinks it's like an angel or a messenger from God. But of course, as the reader, we're kind of raising our eyebrows going, I don't think so. Right. And so he was told by this messenger that if he really wanted to do God's will, he needed to kill Alvin. Well, Alvin had gotten hurt in this accident and he crushed his leg and they needed to do surgery on him because I think he was getting gangrene or something like that.

Reverend volunteers to help do surgery, but he actually is going to do it with the intention of he's going to actually make sure the surgery is unsuccessful and he's going to try to kill him during the surgery. But he, all these, you have to read the book, but all these strange things happen that keep him from doing this. So he gets back to his church and the visitor is there. so this is that passage. visitor is very dark and

J Q (15:38.667)
He's very dark and scary. And scary. And so now Thrower, he's feeling like, I've let God down. And accusing. He's very accusing. So Thrower is like kind of coming back with his tail between his legs and he's having to face the visitor again. Okay. And this is chapter 14 and it's called Chastisement. Indeed, said a voice behind him, a voice he knew, a voice that now in his moment of failure, he both feared and longed for. forgive me, comfort me, my visitor, my friend.

yet do not fail also to chastise me with the terrible wrath of a jealous god. Chastise you? As the visitor, how could I chastise you, such a glorious specimen of humanity? I am not glorious, said Thurwer miserably. You're barely human for that matter, said the visitor. I said the wrong voice, well. In whose image were you made? I sent you to bring my word into the house and instead they have nearly converted you.

What do I call you now, a heretic or merely a skeptic? A Christian, crowd-thrower. Forgive me and call me once again a Christian. You had the knife in your hand, but you set it down. I didn't mean to. Weak, weak, weak, weak, weak.

Each time the visitor repeated the word, he stretched it longer and longer until each repetition became a song in itself. As he sang, he began to walk around the church. He did not run, but he walked quickly, far faster than any man could walk. Weak, weak. He was moving so fast that thrower had to turn constantly just to keep him in sight. The visitor was no longer walking on the floor. He was skittering along the walls. As smooth and fast in his motion as a

then even faster until he became a blur. And Thrower could not keep up with him by turning. Thrower leaned on the altar facing the empty pews, watching the visitor race by again and again and again. Gradually, Thrower realized the visitor had changed shape, that he had stretched himself like a long slender beast, a lizard, an alligator, bright-skilled and shining longer and longer until finally the visitor's body was so long it circled the room.

J Q (17:50.163)
a vast worm that gripped its own tail between his teeth. And in his mind, Thorough realized how very small and worthless he was compared to this glorious being that sparkled with a thousand different colors, that glowed with inner fire, that breathed in darkness and exhaled light. I worship thee, he shouted inside himself. Thou art all that I desire. Kiss me with your love so I may taste your glory. He saw now the terrible predicament of man.

He saw that he dangled over the pit of hell like a spider on a slender thread, and the only reason God did not let him fall was because he was not even worthy of destruction. Thrower looked into the visitor's eyes and despaired, for there was neither love nor forgiveness nor anger nor contempt.

The eyes were utterly empty and thrower knew that this was his own reflection that he was nothing that for him to continue to exist was a cruel waste of precious space that the only choice left to him was to be annihilated uncreated to restore the world to the greater glory it would have had had if Philadelphia thrower had never been born. So, so right there tells you he's in his mind. He's being convinced that he's

not worthy of living and he should not have been created. this thing is, if you think about it, this thing is wanting him to think he should be uncreated. He even said that in here. thinking of the characteristics of Satan. He's an accuser, an accuser.

And he said he didn't see forgiveness or anger or contempt or love in the eyes of this beast. So it's funny that anyone else could say this is not a creature of God, but he couldn't see He couldn't see that. Yeah.

J Q (19:35.799)
recommend this book. Like I said, we both gave it a four. So do you have any other closing remarks before we finish? No, I recommend it. And I think that there are some public schools where I don't think it's required reading, but I know that I think some teachers do select this book to read in their classes. So I think it's being read in some high schools. Yeah, and we need to keep in mind it is part of a series. So there's several other books that are like it. Yeah.

All right, guys, well, thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next time on Twin Talk.