Learn how 48 miles (78 Km) of highway was to be designed and resurfaced with minimal lane closures and challenging conditions. The combination of people, new technology, and design intentions provides you a high level overview of modern asphalt paving today.
Listen in as we discuss how technology is changing asphalt paving. Gain key insights from the paving professionals at All Roads Construction, Ltd. in British Columbia, Canada where they describe their workflow and experiences in working with this new age of technology and getting ahead of the game.
Learn how 48 miles (78 Km) of highway was to be designed and resurfaced with minimal lane closures and challenging conditions. The combination of people, new technology, and design intentions provides you a high level overview of modern asphalt paving today.
Listen in as we discuss how technology is changing asphalt paving. Gain key insights from the paving professionals at All Roads Construction, Ltd. in British Columbia, Canada where they describe their workflow and experiences in working with this new age of technology and getting ahead of the game.
Welcome to today's podcast. This is Mark[inaudible], senior manager for Topcon on our asphalt paving business development team. We're really excited to have, uh, Brant our, our dealer from Canada, as well as all roads, a customer that's been using our technology to join us today. And so I'd like to go ahead and introduce everyone. That's going to be on the podcast. If I can open with Mark[inaudible], if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and then letting, uh, all roads do their, their introductions as well.
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. Thanks Mark. I appreciate that. Um, Mark[inaudible], uh, director of sales for positioning technologies, construction technology for grant positioning, uh, up here in Canada, uh, I manage currently managing the country for all construction automation and, uh, very excited to be part of, uh, our, this first podcast. So thanks for having us, uh, Denny, um, Daniella bell and rod Stevens. I'll let them introduce themselves, but, uh, awesome partners to be working with during this, uh, during this product launch here. And, uh, I'll let Danny go ahead, Dennis.
Speaker 1:Uh, my name is Danny Labell, uh, operations manager with all roads construction. Um, uh, not much else to say other than we're excited to, uh, to talk about the technology and our experiences using it. Uh, uh, on a big project we had out here in British Columbia
Speaker 3:And, uh, it's rod Stevens here. I'm the president of all roads. And likewise with you, gentlemen, this is kind of an exciting time to be alive. It's interesting to see a technology work in the construction industry and, uh, we were excited to use the various products and that we're looking forward to talking about it and raising awareness of what technology can do and how it can help contractors.
Speaker 1:Um, thank you guys, both, uh, for introducing yourselves, I would ask you the first question I was curious about is I know that we, we hosted an event down in Las Vegas, that you guys got a flavor of what the technology could do, but could you guys explain a little bit better as to why you guys invested in technology and what you guys did to, uh, to research, to, to actually change the way you guys are actually doing paving?
Speaker 3:Sure. I'll let Denny go first. Uh, uh, he was the one who went down into the States to watch the product being used. So let's let him go first and I'll fill in any blanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, originally, uh, it all started, uh, when we, uh, we were a low bid on a major project terror, British Columbia, and, uh, Mark, uh, approached, approached our troop with, uh, this was the right
Speaker 4:And said it was a perfect fit for this project, uh, as it was just an overlay project was no milling. Um, then he decided to fly us out to, uh, to Las Vegas to kind of do a live demo. Um, so before the con expo, uh, event, we had already been kind of aware of what the technology could do and, uh, just learning more about it with the design guys they had in Las Vegas kind of helped us, uh, make the decision that it would be a good idea to use the technology on this project.
Speaker 1:Now, Denny, um, as you guys, you know, obviously we're low bid and you had the project, what, what made you kind of research different technologies to, to actually look at possibly doing something different than what traditionally most of our contractors are doing, and that's really, uh, a very traditional, they, they mill and pave. And in this case, on your project, it was only a, uh, pave or, uh, uh, you know, it's a rehab project. What did you, what did you look at that made you kind of consider maybe thinking of, of approaching this project, different
Speaker 4:Thinking group at all roads, uh, you know, in my entire career, uh, 27 plus years, I've always been very successful when you try things that are outside the box. Uh, so we, we try and do that a lot, uh, and we try to teach it amongst our, uh, our people here. And then when Mark brought it up, uh, getting to explain what it could do, um, you know, it was a very complicated project and it was, uh, very minimal times. We basically had seven hour windows to pave the road, which included, you know, putting in the lane closures, getting all the gear molded onto site paving, taking all the gear off site and then, uh, and then co opening up the road. So in seven hours, that's not a lot of time to do some paving. It was an average of about an hour and a half to, to put the lean closure in and an hour and a half to take it out. So that made it basically made our dating window four hours long. So you can't get a whole bunch of production, which means a lot more joints and, you know, harder to get smoothness and so on. So, uh, we needed something that we could focus on paving and not focus on looking behind the paver to see what our sicknesses were and, uh, and, uh, whether we were putting down a smooth matter, not so, uh, this technology, you know, showed us that we could, uh, we could do that, uh, proactively. So, uh, once, once we, once we figured out what the designing portion of it and how, uh, how I guess simple, it was, uh, to a certain degree, we, uh, we decided it would, would be a good fit. So, uh, as a group, we got together and weighed out the pros and cons and decided that, uh, we had nothing to lose and, uh, if it worked and it would set apart from our competition at the same time.
Speaker 3:And, and maybe, maybe one thing we can add just to let the listeners understand the project, perhaps a little better as well. Is it 78 lane kilometers and there's 90,000 vehicles a day that go on that road. So when it's one thing to bid a job, it's one thing to get the job, but then to build it sometimes a is a different task in itself. And going back to everything that Denny said here so far, our collective goal was to be leaders in technology and thanks to, uh, Mark P auto and brand helping us understand this technology. We felt that there was other intangibles that we wanted to tap into and, and, uh, and influence in a sense. And one was just the energy and the vibe that our crews have the morale and the momentum of a group that, uh, continually shows technology at work. And we had this very difficult project to try and pull off and, um, make a success out of. And so for all those reasons, it was the right fit for this project.
Speaker 2:So I, I've got a question, uh, with regards to all of that. And guys, thank you for the kind words. Um, you know, the, the biggest thing as a dealer that we face is, and when we talk about this technology to contractors is, well, it's not in the specs or the ministry of transportation or in the States, the department of transportation, the DOD is they don't, they don't have it in their specs and it's not needed, we're already achieving bonuses or whatever the excuses are to not invest in technology. Two part question one. Why did you do it even though it wasn't in the spec and two, how did you get the ministry to agree to do the project with the technology versus traditional ways that we've been doing it for 50 years?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, for me, yeah, for me, uh, it was, it was a bit of a process with the ministry. Uh, you know, everybody's skeptical and, you know, everybody's worried about the cost of it, and everybody's worried about whether it's gonna work or not. So there was a lot of, a lot of questions, uh, for me, the concept was very, a no brainer for us. If it, if it actually performed the way it should perform, uh, I mean, it just made complete sense. And so what we had to do with the ministry was we had to put proposal packages together for the, uh, the technology. And, uh, so we kind of, there wasn't a lot of information to give other than what we could do, but what we did was we went ahead of time and we scanned the road and then we show across sections of the existing highway and what it was and what it was going to take to get the job done. Um, so we were very clear that there at that time that their specifications did not weren't realistic and we could not achieve them physically impossible. So we showed it to them on paper that we couldn't do that. And this technology would make it very clear on how we could achieve it and what it would take to achieve it before we even put, uh, a rock down onto the road. So they liked the concept. They, they, they, uh, they asked us to do a test strip, uh, which obviously you were a part of. And we did one and, uh, in a small town or a city in Chilliwack and BC here. And it was a great success. The ministry came out to witness the technology, uh, and, uh, you know, they got very excited for it. And then they approved our proposal to utilize it. And, uh, and the rest is history. Then we went out onto the project and, and use it.
Speaker 3:And if I, if I can just add to that, really, it came down to making them aware of, of the technology and then how the technology benefits them, because they always think as contractors, we're trying to benefit ourselves and obviously we are, but they wanted to know what would they gain by allowing this technology when it isn't written in their specs. And it did mean that they'd have to change certain parameters of their specs, uh, like application rates, which like on a project like this, you had maybe had the project broken up into 70 to a hundred different lots. And now they were a little concerned that they would lose this control of the application and how much asphalt went down. And so just through some repetitive training and they understood what the program could do and how the pavers would react. Uh everybody's uh, anxiety level, if you will, and or buy into using technology, definitely, uh, uh, in the end, it settled down and they could see the better
Speaker 1:Guys. That's, that's, that's just wonderful to hear that. And I know that, uh, being that this was your first project that was, uh, honestly, uh, just a really, uh, tremendous, uh, accomplishment you guys had as well as brand. I would, I would ask this one question is in the times we're at, within COVID in that we can't necessarily be there for training. Can you kind of describe a little bit about how brand helped you guys learn the, the way that this, this new, uh, solution would work being that maybe there wasn't as much hands-on?
Speaker 4:I mean, for me, uh, I don't think people realize the, the magnitude of, uh, what we did for first project, but a 78 colon colon on 78, uh, uh, kilometers of highway, uh, and to design that entire section, uh, was quite the undertaking, but, uh, you know, uh, Mark put together a pretty, uh, great team. I think we met every other day for two weeks just to go over the design. We did all the training online. We had our in-house, so we have two in-house designers, uh, out of, within our group. Uh, bark has one within his group, and then the top con team, uh, we all got together and, uh, made sure that we understood the technology. We took our time. I mean, it was a, it was a big project. It was a, uh, big design. I think we had to break it up into like 12 different sections just to make it manageable enough and then, you know, overlap them. Uh, but at the end of the day, uh, we, we, we had to, I think the keys that we had the time to do it all, even though it was down to the wire two weeks. So, but, uh, but there was a good collaborative effort on everybody's part. And, uh, you know, anytime we ran into any issues, there was always somebody there to, uh, answer our questions and, uh, you know, everybody was diligent and, uh, it was quite a big team that, uh, came online every day, every other day to discuss our problems. And we just worked through them and, uh, Topcon has some pretty, uh, pretty knowledgeable guys that, uh, always had the answers to our questions. So it was, uh, it was a stressful, but a good experience. Uh, when you look back on it,
Speaker 1:Danny and Rob, thank you for those answers, I would ask to kind of wrap this up, give us a little bit of the conclusion of what the project, uh, how it, how to kind of finish it up. I, I know that, uh, you guys had expectations as far as what you thought you were going to go into it, and then once you added this solution at it, it definitely made things a lot faster quicker, if you wouldn't mind sharing that, that would be wonderful to, to tell the group.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, for me personally, uh, uh, you know, I'm 100% sold on the technology. Uh, we use it every chance we get, even after the, the big highway project was done. Uh, we're scanning roads for, uh, recreating files, uh, for me the project itself, uh, we, uh, I couldn't be more proud of the project we put forward to the ministry. We put it out on time. Uh, you know, our bonus penalties were, were, uh, were really good. Uh, you know, our application rates were within 0.4% of the design that we created. Uh, I mean, uh, the survey aspect of, uh, the technology that, uh, helped us lay out all the lane lines, uh, was, was amazing. I think we would have really struggled with that. Uh, cause you're trying to, you're trying to offset lane lights on the side of the highway with, uh, two constant live lanes of traffic, uh, which would have made a difficulty to do layout on the, on the highway. So, uh, I think just all in all, I'm, uh, I'm very pleased our production, I'd say we more than doubled our production that we anticipated, uh, or that anybody even saw we would get. So it was a, for me, it was just an all around good experience. We had a few, few kind of minor issues at the beginning, you know, but they were to be expected, but the whole team got together and, uh, we worked them out. We ironed them out. And, you know, by the, after the first week of Pavan, we were, uh, we were a pretty fine oiled machine. They're out there on the highway
Speaker 3:And I'd like to add to it. Denny said there, um, we've got a lot of compliment from even our competitors saying, wow, that is a smooth ride. And how did you accomplish it? And you sure seem to be paving fast. And, uh, when you think about those comments, uh, that's really what all we wanted to be able to do. We wanted to stand out again and use technology to help us. You have to keep in mind these 78 lane kilometers, the road did this. And we had only a certain amount of volume, which we had no say in that the ministry picked for us. So from a materials handling perspective, we only had the 53,000 tons. They were going to give us, they give us a road like this and they want us to meet smoothness specs. So we go back to the question of technology and how did it help us, right? From the beginning we knew we only had one shot, one pass with that paver. That was it. And there was no pre milling. So a lot of projects similar to this would have you go and pre mill. And we know that that would help you get smoothness, but we didn't have that option here. So we had one pass with those pavers and we had to hit it bang on every time, every day, all the time. And the technology is what helped us be able to consistently produce that final product. And when you have a road that does this as well, what we really appreciated was one of our biggest areas of bonus was no segregation. So people always think about smooth ride, but no segregation is because we knew that with the design, we knew that we would have a minimum amount of asphalt over even those high points. And so you never get that kind of rock on rock, banging each other and, uh, giving you those segregated areas because we predesigned it. So we knew what our minimum thicknesses had to be. And when you have that average traveling person, tax, paying, citizen, driving down the road, they say, it's smooth. I feel like I'm floating. And at the same time, like the texture is amazing and you can hear it when you drive as well. So all of those components wrapped together really, uh, all came from technology and we thank Brown. We thank Topcon. We thank the group for, uh, introducing us to that technology and we're firm believers. We want others. We even want our competitors to pick up the product lines and help our industry continue to progress because that's what leaders really do is they help inspire other leaders to pick up the momentum and keep moving forward. So it's our challenge to all our competitors, to use the technology and collectively, even though we're competitors, we can work at improving the technology and giving the taxpayer better, smoother, longer lasting roads.
Speaker 1:Uh, I, I, I couldn't thank you enough for saying those words and, and we, we, we truly appreciate what all roads has done and bran being your partner. We, uh, we are very, very excited about the future in this business. And I'll say this, anyone that's listening to this podcast, all roads is, is up for several awards because of the way they approach this project. And it was, it was them embracing technology. It was their dealer that supported them to get them, you know, trained and, and into the, what it could do and what it couldn't do. And, uh, we are looking forward to the future. And thank you, Canada. Thank you, uh, BC, for everything you guys have done, as far as giving a chance for technology to kind of change the way that we approach things and, uh, rod and, and Danny, you guys have been great partners brand as well.
Speaker 2:You know, Denny, you guys, rod, you guys are continuing to use the technology, even though that project is done. And I know we're, we're at a time, but maybe, maybe there's some snippets in, in here that we're going to talk about. So now that you're done not highway one project, which was tremendous success for you guys and for us, um, you know, moving forward, you have your, your milling machine, which is, which is rigged up for millimeter GPS and smooth ride. You've got your pavers rigged up for both. Uh, uh, you're continuing to use the technology. How are you doing, what's your latest project right now that you have discovered the, the benefits of smooth, right?
Speaker 4:So, uh, I know what you're talking about here. Uh, we're doing, uh, a piece of highway, uh, for the trans mountain pipeline project. Uh, we're subcontractors on it. But what we found out with the smooth ride technology is we could grade a road, uh, using millimeter GPS and creating a surface file, but what we can do rather than go scan that gravel and, uh, and pave on top of it, we can take the surface file from the millimeter GPS imported into the smooth ride, uh, software. And then we can create a, we can create our own surface file for the smooth ride system based off of the surface file that the grader, uh, was using. So because of the accuracy, the millimeter GPS, uh, can grade a section of highway roadway. Um, we could pave it just as accurately using the same file without scanning it. So it was, uh, it was just kind of something we, uh, we were just kind of brainstorming me and Shiraz one of our designers and, uh, we thought we'd try it out. And, uh, yeah, we, we worked out fantastic. Uh, we, we, we created the file off the surface file, imported it into the pavers, and then we paved on top of the gravel and, uh, and it was, uh, I think we were like, bang on our quantities. Uh, did a good job. It went really well. So I was very excited that, uh, we were able to kind of be a little creative and, uh, find a new, a new way to use the technology so we can utilize it even more than we already plan on using it. So, yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Now you are going to need equals, sorry, Mark. You are going to need to scan that road after your second lift, then you can
Speaker 1:Join or there's a tie in you're going to need to create that design.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, so basically on this project, there's a, there's a facelift and intermediate lift and a top lift. So what we did was we created a design using the surface files for the base lift and the intermediate lift once that's complete and we'll take the scanner, we'll scan the intermediate lift and then create the surface file to make sure all the tie ins match with, uh, with the design. So, uh, just kind, kinda neat ways to utilize the, uh, you know, the, uh, the software and different, different ways.
Speaker 3:Maybe something else to add to overall is the fact that, uh, we use the variable depth milling feature. Um, enrichment city of Richmond has a number of roadway. So we are actively using that and, and that's helping us out there. What's really exciting for all roads actually moving forward is we were just awarded, uh, one of the largest paving contracts in the greater Vancouver area, as far as the volume of tonnage to go and just to put it in perspective, it's two and a half times the size of what we just did on highway one. And that's for CXP and it's for the center port. So it's the port of Vancouver where we have 125,000 tons or so to lay down and we've got a great it. So we're going to be grading it. We've got concrete works. When we think about technology, we'll do stringless curb and gutter. We'll go out with our graders and we'll use millimeter GPS. At the end of the day, we're going to try and factor in, uh, we got 70,000 tons of, uh, full depth milling to do there as well. And then all this paving. So 2021 is going to see this technology get used a lot here locally. We're going to learn some things through the process. We know that already, but we're committed to utilizing it. And a point of interest with the center expansion is the fact that, uh, at the end of the day, we have to deliver as-builts to them to show them what our final grades of the actual pavement surface is. So you can imagine what technology we're going to use to be able to show them that versus the old school way of going out there and doing as-built information. So, uh, it's going to be exciting and we're going to push this technology to a new level. And, uh, I personally want to thank Danny LaBelle is my partner who really did embrace technology at an early stage and drew determination. And, uh, it took a determination for sure. It did it being a great cheerleader through to our superintendents, which then got passed down to the foreman, right to the guy who's out there, shoveling his heart out every day. Everybody buying into the use of technology has been amazing. And that's why he's my partner. Cause I knew that to begin with.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, rod. And I'm going to ask you guys a question. One of the things we're seeing here in the States is they're asking us as far as RTMC to actually record the as-built as it's being laid, are you guys seeing that the mot up is, is kind of going down that road or is, what is your thoughts there?
Speaker 3:Mot is not going down that road yet. Um, it's baby steps for them seems, uh, there as an authority. I mean, they all mean well, but there's such a, a, um, I guess an order organization that what they have to try to do is they have to have consistency throughout the various provinces. So one paving contractor doesn't have some kind of an edge over the others from a competitive perspective. So they're very, they're very careful, but what you will find is projects like the port of Vancouver and the center expansion that we're talking about. For sure. That's definitely going that way, where we do need to produce as-builts from were done. And when you think about the way a port is built, it has to have like minimal fall because when they stack all those containers up on top of each other, they can't have the whole thing leaning too far. So they design it with minimal like 0.5% of a fall. And at the end of the day, sure, they go out there and they look for puddles, but really they want that as-built information to come back to prove that we were able to meet the specs and grading of course is important, but really they don't care how well it's graded. They care how well it's paved and we know what they all factor into each other. But at the end of the day, they're going to ask you that as built information everyday on the final surface,
Speaker 4:That job there, I think is a five millimeters over three meters, is the tolerance.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you just to kind of conclude this. If there was some of the pitfalls of what you guys went through, as far as, you know, learning new technology or can Brant and Topcon get better as far as getting you guys embraced and it understanding that you guys, you know, you guys invest in it and you went, you know, you went forward with it on this project, but we, we try to get better. I know that Topcon does. And I'm sure Brad is well, but where do you guys say that, you know, we, we have some improvement areas that you guys would comment on.
Speaker 4:I mean, for me, I don't have a lot of negative comments. I mean, it's such new technology. I think it was pretty impressive that we pulled it off. To be honest, I was, you know, it's, uh, nobody's using this technology so you don't really have a template to follow. Uh, I'd like to think we created the template to follow, but, uh, all in all, I think we all understood that the technology was doing that. We were going to fumble here and there, but everybody was prepared to handle those situations. And everybody was kind of at the phone or on the computer waiting for, waiting for us to ask our questions so they could be answered. So I was quite impressed with the whole team, from the brand team to the top con team. Um, you know, we, we did have some design issues and it took some of our guys, uh, a bit more time to understand certain aspects of the design, but, uh, once they got it, I mean, that's, uh, we're, we're doing it all in house now. We don't even, we don't even call you guys anymore. Cause we, we have a pretty good understanding of how it works. So, um, I think, uh,
Speaker 1:You have a good team that understands the technology and, uh, you guys did a great job teaching us. So I think it would have been even easier if we would have been able to have some in person training, but uh, everything considered, I think it was, uh, it was a good experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I can echo Denny's comments there for sure. I, and I think moving forward because everything he said was complimentary and, and, and well-deserved from brand and Topcon. The key for us as contractors though, is we're in a high stress environment and you know, that and timing is always so critical for us. So making sure that your people, whether it's brand or whether it's Topcon are available when we need, that's the actually the most important thing, cause we might go months, so we don't need you. And then all of a sudden, boy, we have a challenge and it's like all hands on deck. And, and we had these discussions with, uh, brand with Mark[inaudible] and the whole team saying, you need to be available. I don't think I could have made it any clearer. Um, but, but he got the point and he did make the team available. And sometimes in some highly stressed, uh, stressful situations, I mean, we did two weeks of data processing and it was crammed that data processing in and, uh, that, you know, unfortunately moving forward, that's probably how it is. It's always at the last minute and needing to be very timely. So you've done a great job. Thank you for that. Keep it up.
Speaker 1:Thank you rod. And I appreciate both of you and Denny's, uh, comments and brands. Uh, there are top notch and great partners of ours. So we look forward to it. We're going to continue to get better. Thank you so much for your time today. We couldn't, we couldn't ask more from a contractor such as yourself and we certainly look forward to the future and, and what we, we can jointly do together. This whole experience for me makes me look forward to the next big thing. Yeah. Thank you, Danny. That's great. For sure. 2021 is going to be much better than 2020 was. I can guarantee you that for sure. Yes, sir. Guys. Hey, look forward to it. We'll talk. We'll talk soon.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us on the podcast.
Speaker 5:[inaudible].