From military pilot to layout specialist, discover how this contractor is doing layout faster with fewer mistakes using robots. While many are utilizing traditional 2021 layout tools, Mike Hardt, an experienced user of digital tools for construction layout, is driving productivity that’s ten years ahead of his competition!
From military pilot to layout specialist, discover how this contractor is doing layout faster with fewer mistakes using robots. While many are utilizing traditional 2021 layout tools, Mike Hardt, an experienced user of digital tools for construction layout, is driving productivity that’s ten years ahead of his competition!
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Speaker 2:What's going on, everybody. Welcome to talk con talks, construction. My name is Matt Sawyer and I'm your host for today's episode in which we'll be talking with a very special guest from the construction world. But first I just want to go ahead and thank you for tuning in, in this episode, we're actually going to go ahead and focus on robotic total station technology and how these field instruments have changed, uh, in shape, the way contractors actually work out in the field. The immediate benefits contractors gain from using a total station are just simply amazing. I've actually talked to many contractors that have mentioned, you know, how fast they're able to perform layout. Now making fewer mistakes. The owners that I've talked to, um, who mentioned and talk about the time savings and the reduction in the field costs, it's truly incredible. And, uh, and it's truly incredible to be part of this movement and, um, and surrounded by, uh, you know, great organizational leaders, teams and, uh, great customers. But don't take it from me. You're here about this today, directly from an end-user. So without further ado, let me introduce you all to our special guest Mike Hart, Mike, welcome to the show. Hey Matt. Thanks. How's it going? Long time? No talk,
Speaker 3:Just a little background. Um, about myself. I was, uh, I've been in construction about five years now, before that I was in the army and I was thinking, you know, what, what, Oh, I want to do when I get out of the army. And I was thinking, serving would be cool. And, uh, in, uh, you know, there's, there's regular land surveying and then there's construction surveying. And I I've always had an interest in construction. So I, uh, I started working for a GC and that in my application, I said, I wanted to do a construction surveying and they had a layout crew. So luckily I got on board with them. And, uh, the guy who was working there who was in charge had been doing layout for about 40 years. And, uh, so he started training me and that was a great experience. Um, but then we got this Ella in 100 and, uh, I saw right away, it was, it was awesome. It was game changer because before that, we were just using, um, a two man kind of set up or one guy sets up the station and then I was holding the prison pole and all that. But once we got this robot, it really changed things a lot.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. Hey, you, you, you got a lot going on there and I kind of want to unpack a little bit of that, you know, I actually started following you. So I just, just to back up a little bit, um, I actually started following you on YouTube and your YouTube channel long before I actually had the chance to actually talk to you. And, uh, so I was a fervent admirer of all your YouTube stuff. In fact, I, um, I used to use your content that you would push out there for, for layout and the technology and the field tablets and so forth with other customers that I used to talk to and other contractors, and they would call in asking for some help and I would point them to your YouTube channel. So I just want to say thank you. And again, I've been following you for a long time. Um, and just a quick note, just, uh, you know, you kind of fill our audience in on your background a little bit, and personally, I think you have a very unique story and why I'm really excited to have you here today. Um, you, you, you know, you started off, uh, as a, as a black Hawk pilot in the army or whatnot. And how the heck did you, how do you go from that, um, to construction because a lot of guys that I have talked to and, and so forth and that kind of career and field, they, they will typically venture into aviation or they'll go do some other things, but you got into construction. Can you, can you talk or walk us through, you know, what happened after that? How does someone like that end up and all the way up to this point end up in construction?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, I mean, they're actually both as far as being, uh, involved in layout and, uh, and flying, they're both fairly technical fields. So, you know, I already had an aptitude for technology and all that. And, uh, I was always reading maps, uh, you know, navigating while you're flying around. So I can navigate around blueprints pretty well, but, and I've always loved building stuff. Uh, when I was 16, my friends and I built, uh, a cabin. And so we've always just kind of been into building. And, and when I was thinking, uh, after my time and service was over, uh, you know, maybe get into construction, but I wanted to do something that was technical and kind of half in the office, half out in the field. And, uh, I could, you know, use, use my brain a little bit and, but also get out there and work outside
Speaker 2:You, you didn't want to be stuck in an office type setting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. But I didn't want to be stuck outside either all the time. I want it kind of float around both. I got ya. So I think construction is exciting. I mean, it, it's rewarding and you know, when you're done with the project, there's something there to see and that people can use and all that stuff. So there's a lot, a lot of benefits.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right, right. On it. So absolutely. And Mike, so, you know, talk about, so what are, um, so what kind of construction, if you want to share with our audience, what, what do you do right now? And, and, um, what type of construction we do mostly
Speaker 3:Commercial and government. And if we do residential, it's kinda like, uh, apartment building complexes. Um, as far as like commercial, I mean, we've got, uh, grocery stores, retail, um, government where we're doing, you know, schools, fire stations, police buildings, um, that we do some parking garages, uh, just a little bit of everything, pretty much nothing, nothing huge.
Speaker 2:And, and what type of trade? What trade are you? We're concrete, concrete contractors. Right. And in concrete contractors, I mean, you know, in my field and in my many years and talking to contractors, they, the old saying goes that nobody, you know, concrete doesn't wait on anybody. And everybody has to go off of, you know, the schedule of the concrete contractors. Is that true? Yes.
Speaker 3:Pretty much. And, uh, you know, we're, uh, held to the weather, but other than that, I mean, it's fast paced and yeah, there's a lot, it's, there's a lot going on in the field and concrete's coming right now, you know, at two o'clock every day we've got concrete, so you better have things ready.
Speaker 2:And, and, and again, I totally see that too. And if you're not, if you're not ready with all your layout or whatever, concrete doesn't wait on anybody. So they got your poor schedules and you guys poor. No.
Speaker 3:You don't want to send trucks. Yeah. Those trucks, you know, we only got, I think 90 minutes from when it leaves the plant, so they can't hang around too long and most of that time spent in traffic anyways. So you better be ready with that
Speaker 2:Right now, Mike. So when you got out, um, you said there were there a survey, um, and then you have building construction. So did you, did you choose one or the other, or you went straight into building construction or,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, I kind of, you know, thought between the two and, uh, and I, like I said, I liked construction and I figured I'd be interested in surveying. So the two matched up, um, and I like, you know, construction, like I said, there's a tangible thing at the end of your project. There's a building there now that you can, uh, you know, be proud of, uh, whereas land surveying, you're just kinda checking boundaries and stuff like that. So that's why I was drawn more towards construction surveying. If you want to call that, it's, it's really, it's just layout.
Speaker 2:And then did you have any friends or family in the industry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my, uh, father-in-law is a superintendent at the general contractor I started at. So you kind of helped me get in working there. What'd you start off doing? Um, I, I started off for the first month or two, um, just doing whatever they needed me to do, and I wasn't even doing any layout, the layout position wasn't open. So, you know, just typical GCs usually do a lot of punch stuff and that's kinda what I was doing. Um, but then the opening came up for a helper for, uh, Stuart, the main layout guy. And since I had put it on my resume that I wanted to do that, they called me and I was like, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. And so, so what happens? So when you, when you said, Hey, you know what, that's interesting, that'd be something that I want to do. What did you, so, so what did you, you went and did you have to apply? And then what happened when you, when you got to that layout position, what were you guys doing to layout?
Speaker 3:Well, um, basically they just said, Hey, Stewart's going to pick you up this day and go out to the job and start doing layout with them. And, uh, so our first, my first project with him was a school. And, uh, I basically just tag, tagged along for a lot of it. And, and like I said, that's when we were using the, the total station, uh, that was not robotic. So he needed somebody to hold the pole.
Speaker 2:Oh, you guys are using a manual total station. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yup. And he needed, needed somebody to hold the pole cause his other helper got promoted to superintendent. So lucky me, I got to do that. And, uh, yeah, I just worked with him for two years and really learned a lot.
Speaker 2:That's, that's pretty cool. A lot of guys that, and a lot of contractors that, you know, they ended up talking to have been in the industry for, for a while. Um, Mike, I don't think I asked you, but, you know, can you give everybody an idea? How long have you been in construction?
Speaker 3:Since 2015.
Speaker 2:Since 2015. Okay. So you've been there a handful of years, five years, um, and, and going on, and you're pretty fortunate, I have to say because, um, when you, when you moved into that layout position and what I would call it promotion, right. So you got promoted and became part of the layout crew and you guys are using a manual total station. A lot of guys that I talked to end up, they come up from pulling string and tape and a tape measure. So to be thrown in, into somebody that's actually using a little bit more advanced technology to do their, their project layout. I think that's incredibly, uh, you know, I think that's incredibly awesome for you. Oh
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was definitely lucky.
Speaker 2:And can you talk about it just a backup for a minute because it might, I still, you know, I'll make some cold calls and I'll call around to share technology and information with our contractor community. And I will. Um, so I'll do that, you know, throughout the week and so forth and introduce myself. And it's still funny when I talk to somebody and I say, Hey, Bob, you know, this is Matt Sawyer on the Topcon guy. I was wondering if you could help me, could you put me in touch with somebody that runs your field, you know, your field layout group and it's so how many times? Um, not all the time, but I still get this well, Matt, uh, what do you mean by layout? So I know this seems pretty, uh, pretty novice, but I'm going to ask you, Mike, you know, we talk about construction layout and for those who are listening and they don't have an idea, like my, my wife, for example, she'll, she'll come to me and she'll say, yeah, you know, honey, what are you doing? And they say, Oh, I do layout for talk on layout technology. And I help contractors, you know, you know, increase the speed and efficiency of their layout. And she goes, what's layout. The same thing happens when I call the contractors. And it's so funny. Cause I have to tell her, well, they think about it this way. It's the same way you could, you do layout on a wall inside your own home. When you go to hang a picture, right? Mike, you got to figure out where's the picture going to go? How far from the, from the ceiling does it gotta come down? It's gotta be in the center of the room and it's got to look straight. So you gotta to do your layout on the wall. So that's the, the comparison that I make to point out exactly what I do. I don't just much grander scale for our contractors. And at the end of the day, just like you get to look at that beautiful, straight hanging picture. Do you get to look at a big building that you guys have now built and constructed and it's just amazing to drive down and take a look at that, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Layout is basically, you know, draw the building on the ground or just, you know, but you're not drawing all the lines. You're basically giving them points and they connect the dots to draw the building out as they're building it. So that's kind of how I picture it. There's the blueprints. And basically you're taking those blueprints and drawing them out for people so they can come behind you and then start building. Yeah,
Speaker 2:You're basically, you're transferring it from a, you're transferring from a digital copy on the, on the blue pans, which the blue plans are, what everybody's accustomed to seeing. And everybody knows that. Right? You think about architectures and in the architects, how they have those big, old rolled up plans, right. Sticking out. And if everybody ever recalls something about Mary and he pulls up, he's got all these architectural drawings sticking out of the back and everyone's like, Oh, you're an architect. Yeah, same thing. But now what you're saying is you basically were, we've have a way now to transfer those out to the field. And that's kind of what,
Speaker 3:And like you were saying before, um, a lot of the original kind of layout was just manual, like string lines, tape measures, just measuring out, Oh, well the building's a hundred feet long. Let me get my tape measure and measure over a hundred feet. And we did a lot of that too. When I was working with Stewart. Um, we, we had the total station, but, uh, back then using two people and, and, and the technology, wasn't what it is today. And you could only do so much. So we would just give some control lines and then transfer to string lines and tape measures and, and start going that route. So, but now with the way, you know, the Allen series and all that with, with Topcon, um, you don't need any string lines for tape measures and it's just gotten so fast and smooth that, um, it's, uh, game changers completely different than the string line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can, you met what you just said? I mean, let's walk somebody through to just set up string lines and tape, right. When you have to take a tape measure and you got to set up all your string lines on a job site, depending on how big the job is, Mike, how long could that take somebody just to set up string lines
Speaker 3:Half your day is could easily be doing that before you even start working, uh, before you even start digging any holes or lay on any block or anything like that. Uh, because I mean, you've got to set up one control line to start, and then, and then you pull off that line, however, many feet to something else, like say the rooms, 10 feet wide, you pull another string line. And then, and that's easy if, if it's a square building, but once you start getting into walls that are at an ankle and curved walls, uh, now you've got to have a radius work point and kind of draw an arc around by holding a string and a plumb Bob. And it's really cumbersome. And now you don't need that. Like I said, you just click on the, on the computer and say, Hey, lay out this arc. And it just tells you where to go.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. And we're going to, we'll unpack a little bit more into that because there are going to be those that hear this and think, what do you mean you click on this and it tells you to do that. Like, there's a lot of guys that, that probably haven't seen this technology out there, or it's just something as simple as maybe they've, they've heard or seen it. And they just can't fathom, uh, themselves using that technology. It would be too hard to learn. So we'll kind of get into all that in a minute, but just to back up, um, Mike talk about concrete. I mean, this is what you do each and every day. Um, you know, and, and obviously, you know, very commendable, I mean, the contractors that are out there working and guys like you, that come from, you know, serving our country, which thank you by the way for your service. Um, can you walk us through, so for a concrete contractor, you know, what are you guys, uh, what are you guys responsible for laying out on a project and how early on are you guys, are you guys the first ones on that project? Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:We're usually, uh, aside from the site contractor, who's building the building pad, uh, when we get there, it's, we're usually the first ones and it's just a flat open area and there's going to be a building on it. And so
Speaker 2:Essentially you're just looking at it. You're just looking at it. Yeah. Just
Speaker 3:Looking at dirt. Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of layout with, with concrete because you're laying out footings, you're laying out a rebar to make sure that it comes out of the flooding and, and into the, the block, the CMU, um, or you're laying out concrete walls. So you could be laying out doors and windows, all sorts of stuff. Um, and, and anchor bolts too. That's a big one. Uh, cause we got to set the anchor bolts for the steel contractors when they come in and put up all their columns. So that's got the anchor bolts are, they've got to be spot on. Um, so that's a huge layout, uh, concern for us is it's gotta be precise.
Speaker 2:And so now, um, and you're right. Yeah. That's, that's the beautiful thing about, um, especially technology today, you know, you have to be precise and you have to be, I mean, to your point when you were talking about, um, there, and I always joke, Mike, there is no building that's perfectly square these days. And I always joke that, you know, every architect has to have their, every new building has to be their signature piece. Right. And you have all these, these buildings that twist and turn nowadays, and they have these, these angles and stuff like that, that makes it incredibly difficult to still pull tape measure off of and taking two people to pull a tape measure with these kinds of, uh, you know, with these kind of designs that, you know, we're forced to build these days, right? Oh yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah. You should've seen this, this high school we built, um, about a year ago, the floor pattern, it was a terrazzo and the floor pattern was definitely the architect to, uh, add some flare because it was just curved everywhere. It was one curve was from a, from a hallway going through rooms and into another hallway matching up. And uh, I mean, it was, it was wild. And I was thinking, I didn't have to lay it out, but I was thinking, I wonder how they're going to lay this out. I know how I could do it with the instrument, but I don't know how you would do this with, uh, without it. Um, so yeah, they're getting more and more complex and fancy and, and uh, yeah,
Speaker 2:I like to say, um, can you imagine if we were still building cars the way we were 40 years ago? You know, it just, the technology has come so far and you know, everybody can drive and, um, and, and the technology, I mean, you get to where you need to be and you have all this technology that's built into it nowadays, but I mean, you probably wouldn't be able to get to where he do it. We're traveling further distances and so forth and half the time now. And, um, just to make meetings, of course now you have, COVID so PI none of that's happening, but, um, but again, imagine if we were building cars the way we were 40 years ago. Right. Um, so, so you started out with a manual total station and, uh, so again, you're so Emmanuel total station for, for those who aren't probably familiar, um, it's, it's a robotic, it's basically a robot on a tripod that you place on a job site and somebody has to stand behind the instrument and turn it and via two-way radio to the other guy, who's kind of walking, you know, walking across the job site with the prison pole.
Speaker 3:Yup. And that's exactly right. And, and what you have to do with what makes it take so long is the guy with the pole doesn't know where he's going, but the guy on the station he does. And so he has to tell you over the radio, Hey, I need you to keep walking in that direction, uh, until you walk into where he's pointing at. And then he'll say, okay, uh, wait there, I'm going to take a shot and he'll click a button and take a shot. And it'll say a little, you still got to go back another 30 feet and to the left 25 feet. And then, and then the guy with the poles got a guess like, okay, I guess I'll go back about 30 feet and two left 20 feet. And then, you know, it's a lot of, um, back and forth and then you get kind of closed and he says, okay, now go back a foot and right. Five inches or, Hey, you're not holding the pole, you know, perfectly straight. Uh, I gotta take that shot again. And, and then you can't hear what he's saying or your battery dies on the, uh, walkie talkie. Yeah. There's, it's, it's very slow and cumbersome.
Speaker 2:And then, so you did that for how long until you said that you started out with that GC and then, um, and then how long were you there for, until you picked up and went to another to where you currently are?
Speaker 3:So with, with Stewart, I, um, we had the total station for about a year and then he, he was, he kind of said, you know, in order to keep up with the competition, I think we need to look into getting a robotic total station. And, and that was about a year after I had been with him. And, uh, so that's when we got the L on 100. And so I was the one that kind of really figured out the all in 100. And,
Speaker 2:Oh, so you were still with the same company when you guys upgraded from a manual total station, and then you ended up getting the robotic a fully robotic total station. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Um, Oh, and so that kind of freed us up also to where I could go do jobs by myself with the station and he could go to a job and basically just grab somebody on the job site that worked for us and just say, Hey, can you hold the prison pull or help me out? You know? Cause there was still a handful of guys that helped him out, you know, throughout his time there. Uh,
Speaker 2:And you essentially, you were able to go off on your own. Yeah. Yeah. And why is that? How come you were able to just go off and do all the layout on your own? Well, uh, we, we worked with them
Speaker 3:The, the Ellen 100 together on a couple of jobs, so it could both learn it. Um, and he wanted me to have it and uh, because he, he liked doing it the old school way and I, I liked doing it the new way. So I took it to, um, some jobs I did by myself and, and that's where I really, um, kind of pushed it to the max with it. I wanted to see what it could do. And that was where, um, we had a middle school we were doing and I worked, there was a superintendent there and he knew I did layout and he knew generally I was supposed to just go kind of help the trades. You know, generally I was supposed to lay out the brick points after the footings were done and maybe give a control lines for column like column lines. Um, but I was there and I could get that done so fast. I could do a lot more. And that's why I started really just taking over and doing as much layout as possible. I got to the point where I was laying out, uh, all the footings, the anchor bolts, uh, after the flooding was poor and I'd lay out the, um, the masonry I laid out, uh, I checked all of the plumbing before we poured the slab to make sure it would come up inside of the walls or where it was supposed to be in. And, and so the plumbers had done lay out the old way and we moved about 40.
Speaker 2:They were pulling tape tape measure. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. They were just using tape measures and stuff like that. And, and when you go to check, when I went to check it, um, a lot of those pipes that were supposed to be inside of a wall that was going to be built later or halfway in the wall or something like that. And so we had the opportunity to move it before we poured the concrete, uh, which saved them a lot of headache. Um, and then after we poured the slab, uh, then it was time for the masons to start putting all their interior walls and exterior walls and windows and all that stuff. And I went ahead and laid out all that. I laid out every single, uh, every single wall and that school on both, both floors, which was like, when I was done, it was like 10,000 corners at points.
Speaker 2:Wow. That's, that's amazing. Yeah. So it was, was really cool
Speaker 3:Too, to see all what it could do.
Speaker 2:That is so cool. Because you went from a manual total station where you had to have two person crew, just like, as you were pulling a tape measure, you have to have somebody holding the dumb end of the tape. Right. You have to have somebody holding that other end and, and then you moved to a manual total station. If you talk about, and if you look at the, uh, you know, the progression of the technology and so forth, but, or the evolution of it, um, the manual total station, you have to have somebody behind it turning the robot, and then you have the fully robotic total stations, which are just, you know, the, this is the way to go for a lot of people these days. Right. But now you don't need anybody behind the instrument because it's fully robotic and it's tracking your prism. So it's essentially what it's doing is it's following you across, you know, that, that job site, and you're holding your field tablet, and it's telling you exactly where to go. How quickly were you able to pick up, uh, moving from a manual tool, robotic total station? Was that like an immediate aha moment when you said, Hey, this is it we've got to get more of these or what, what were you thinking?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, for me it was immediate. Uh, it was, it was really easy to go from the manual to the robotic. Actually, it was a whole lot easier because with the manual on our little, um, our little tablet that just kind of connected to the main instrument, um, it just had points on it. It didn't have a drawing in the background. Um, so w what we'd have to do is have all of our points drawn out on the actual blueprints and, uh, reference it that way. But now when, when I started using the robotic total station, uh, it, I had the blueprints on my controller with all the points, and it showed me exactly where I was on the drawing as I was walking around. So I was always, it was so easy to orient yourself to the plan and where you are, and, uh, on the job site, because you have the drawing, you can see yourself on the, on the drawing. Um, so yeah, it, it was, uh, it was easier. There's a lot easier and pretty easy to,
Speaker 2:And, um, and then speed wise and faster. Was it faster? Okay.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Because, like I said, it's updating you in, in real time and, um, you can see yourself walking across the drawings essentially. Um, and you, you can see exactly what point you want. There's no confusion because you have a background drawing on it. And, uh, and, and there's no communication time between two different people. Um, so I know exactly where to move as a moving. I have to, you know, listen to him, tell me which way I need to go and all that. And it's constantly taking shots as you're walking around. So it's constantly giving you updated information on how you need to get to your point, whereas before I'd have to stop, um, wait for him to take the shot, you know, all that,
Speaker 2:You know, the way I think about that, uh, uh, just because I think that robotic total stations are, um, obviously, uh, just a vast improvement and the way that the design that the complexity of the designs and so forth, these are just, these are absolutely necessary. And it's not a, it's not a nice to have product it's a must have. Um, and I think that's, uh, it's truly changing or transforming the way that, uh, that contractors are working nowadays and, and, uh, make it a more efficient, um, the way that I think about the way I used to describe, or when I think about the manual total station, cause I've never used a manual tool station, but I have talked to other contractors and there are contractors like you that have moved to a fully robotic, and there are some that, that hesitate, uh, to move to a robotic total station. But the way I always, I look at it is if, uh, I was always one of the guys that never really adopted GPS when it first came out and didn't have a garment system or anything like that, but I still had a cell phone and it was funny that, you know, the way I could picture it as if, um, you know, you're, you're on the phone with somebody and you're trying to figure out how to get to their home or something. Right. And they're on the phone with them and they say, well, go two or three streets, you know, down after the third light, it's going to be your second. Right. And then, you know, let me know when you're there. And then, uh, Oh, and then when you're there, it's like, well, make sure you make your first left while you didn't tell me now I gotta back up and go back and then you get lost. But if you just have GPS like today, you know exactly where you're going, you're following it on the map and you're going straight there. And it's almost like a video game. And when I met, when I'm at trade shows and stuff like that, that's kinda how I, with these guys who are kind of new to it. Right. I take it, I'm showing them and they, they always like, get this kind of like a video game. Right. Well, you gotta have fun with it too, but, um, but that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I agree that the way I look at it too, is, um, as far as efficiency, the think about back before they had tractors and the farmers have used horses to pull their implements, uh, that was slow and labor is, and all that, that's kinda like the old way of using string lines and that, and now with the robotic total station, that's like when people started using tractors, their efficiency went way up and they didn't need as many people in the field working. And, um, and you know, there were people who I'm sure were resistant to the new technology of attractor and stuck to their horses, but nobody uses horses nowadays like that the efficiency difference between between the two is similar to that, I think,
Speaker 2:Well, to your point, I think that, uh, the construction, uh, the way that we build today, um, is going, you know, it, it's, it's very fast moving and to have somebody there, either holding, you know, the other end of the tape, or standing behind an instrument, like a manual toll station or pulling string and tape, um, now you're able to free those guys up to go do something else. And, um, I mean, is that what you guys have done? Uh, I think that in our industry, a lot of guys are, are hesitant, um, you know, a little bit, uh, just because they think that possibly, you know, maybe that we're replacing people and I don't think that's quite true. Do you, what would you say?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're not, not replacing anybody. W what we did in our company, uh, talking about the concrete company now, um, is the Forman, uh, we're already doing their own layout every day, the old way with string lines and tape measures. So what I did was I just trained each of our foreman and gave them an instrument and say, Hey, do your layout with this instrument instead. And they love it. And it was easy to train all of them. No, no. You know, none of them have a background in surveying at all, but they, they, they were laying out, you know, cause that was part of their job. So all you're doing is augmenting the same people with more skill and more productivity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And, and I actually want to talk to you about that. Um, you were at the former company, you had, you had, uh, experience with both a manual and a robotic total station, which good for you. I mean, within it just, uh, what probably a couple of years you had this type of experience laying out on job sites and using a manual versus a robot. Um, and then what, and then you jumped ship or, or you moved and, um, and what did you do? So you went to a concrete contractor, so you went from a GC to a concrete contractor. Can you talk to us about that? Why you make the jump and, and then, um, and, and what, what did you, you know, what, what position, or what did you end up doing?
Speaker 3:Um, so when I was working for the, the GC, my main job was, um, checking people's work, essentially, uh, check an anchor bowls and for they report and, and QA QC. Yeah, exactly. And that wasn't exactly time. Uh, it was, it was a lot of times it was full-time, but sometimes it wasn't. And, uh, and they kept telling me, you know, this subcontractor should be doing his own layout anyways, why are you helping them? And they told me that quite a few times, and I, and I thought, you know what? Yeah, if I want to keep doing layout, maybe I should just go work for a subcontractor. And I knew, um, the con the concrete contractor that did a lot of work with us, I could see it was a good company and, but they needed help with layout, everything else. They were awesome there, they had hard workers, they had the equipment, uh, they got everything done, but their layout was, uh, not so great. So I talked to the owner and I said, Hey, you know, I know how to use, um, this total station and it's for construction. Um, I think it'd be awesome if, if your company had one of these that they could help you out a lot. Um, would you hire me to be your layout guy? And I'll just take on, you know, your big jobs I'll do. If you've got a school, I'll do that. Or, you know, we'll do one or two jobs at a time and he's like, yeah, I'll hire you. Uh, but you gotta do it. All of our jobs. I was like, well, how many do you have? He's like, man, we've got about 45 to 50 a year. And I was like, ah, I don't know if I can do that. Uh, but I try, I guess. Um, so for about the first year there, uh, I was working really hard, um, just trying to lay out all of our jobs. And, um, and then that's, when, when I, I talked to him again and I said, look, this is pretty easy to learn. Let me start training all of your foreman and let's make the transition to them doing their own layout. Um, and that turned out to be way better than me trying to do everybody's layout.
Speaker 2:W Mike, would you went there in, you started your employment and started doing all their layout. Um, did you also, uh, have them have the owner, were you able to convince him to purchase a total station? Did you come over with your own total station? How did that work?
Speaker 3:He, he purchased, he purchased it. Uh, I told him to purchase the same one. I had the GC
Speaker 2:See, that's, that's amazing. I have to. Okay. So I talked to a lot of contractors, right. There are a lot of guys out there that, that when I talk to them, they see the technology, they see the way the industry is moving. Right. And they have been for, for many years now. And he had a lot of contractors out there that are using this technology. You have some that aren't, um, but they, they, the guys in the field, they, or maybe they see somebody on a job site, like you, Mike, who's using a robotic total CZ. You go, man, I'm out here all day, doing all this layout here, you come up here for just a couple hours and you're done and you've got everything done and laid out. And, and, uh, so when I go and talk to some of these guys, you know, yeah. But the boss would never go for it. How did you not only go and, and, you know, gain employment with another well company, but also how did you convince the owner to invest? Not in your, not just yourself, but also the technology.
Speaker 3:Luckily, um, I had been working with them for a couple of years. Um, while I was working for the GC, I was helping them with their layout. And so they got a little taste of, um, what, what the robotic total station could do for them. And, um, and especially on that school, that's, it was that school project where I laid out everything for them at the end of that project. That's when I came to him and, and suggested maybe I'd come over and work for him. Um, but you know, as far as the, the price of the, uh, LN series is, is so it's very economical compared to, it's not, it's not what the surveyors, uh, the surveying companies are using. Those are very expensive. And I think that's what everybody thinks when they see it. They think, uh, we, we couldn't afford that. That's just one of those super expensive, um, surveying machines that the surveyors use. My boss would never go for that, but this is, um, priced for, uh, construction for layout. Um, I think it's, yeah, I don't know. I think it's just a good price for the market.
Speaker 2:It was easier for the owner to swallow that then relative to other other areas. Okay. And so, um, so then you started doing all their layout with just, just you on a robotic total station. Um, how many robotic total stations do you guys have today? Cause you ha you have about what? Seven or eight now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have, uh, seven Ellen, one hundreds, and then since the all-in-one fifties have come out, we have three of those and then I've also got a GT 500, so yeah, we've got it. Not at 10.
Speaker 2:Wow. So you guys have, you know, so you guys have, obviously you've expanded your fleet of robotic total stations and which means you're in, you're no longer the one doing the layout. Right. You, are you now training all your other guys to use these robotic total stations? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Uh, and basically a training's over cause that didn't take that long. Um, w what I did was I've, I've transitioned now to pretty much full-time in the office and I create all the point files for the guys. And then when a job starts, I meet them out there. Uh, I give them the job and then they just take it from there and do all the layout. So training took up some guys that would only take at say three or four days,
Speaker 2:Three or four, three or four days with somebody taking somebody with no or minimum experience or no experience to using the F a fully robotic total station and being comfortable to send them plans or export them out to him so that he can go and do his layout.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yup. Uh, with a little follow up, maybe a couple of times I'd go out to the job to see if he was getting it and all that, but yeah, for the most part, people pick it up pretty easy. Um, and I haven't had anybody that I couldn't train that couldn't learn it. Uh, everybody we've given an instrument to still has one,
Speaker 2:Well, that's one of the biggest, uh, you know, one of the biggest obstacles is the, uh, just thinking about technology and then, uh, how long is it going to take me to try to use this and understand it, and what about my guys and, you know, uh, but to hear that, and, and trust me, I've seen it, I've been out there and been able to do the same as you and help, uh, help somebody get up to speed rather quickly. I think that the technology has come so far. I mean, this has been out since early 2000, so we're looking at, you know, 20 years in the making here, technology has come a long way and it's making it pretty easy, but, you know, from a guy that you've trained, how many foremen have you trained to use these now? Eight, nine, 10.
Speaker 3:We've trained all, all of our footing crews. Uh, and, and then I've, I've got another guy in the office that helps me create the point files. Um, and I've trained him on the instrument too. So he goes out to the field and, and helps also,
Speaker 2:Can you, um, now you brought up a really good point. You're talking about creating point files. Uh, Mike, talk to us about that. What does that mean? And walk us through, when you talk about creating point files, what are you doing?
Speaker 3:Uh, basically I'm taking the blueprints and, uh, like the CAD files, um, which is the model. If you don't know, that's the model that the architects, um, design on the computer, and if that's what they print the drawings out of there just use a CAD file and turn it into a PDF and print it. So if you ask the architect, Hey, can I get the CAD files for this project? Then they send it to you. And that's what you use as your background image. And I, I just put that on the controller. And then from there, you can just start picking, uh, adding points to the corners of the building or footings or, uh, column line intersections or whatever. But basically once you get a set up points, then when you're out in the field, you could just select that point and say, Hey, where is this at? Uh, let's lay this out and it'll, you can go directly to that point. So there's a process in the office of kind of preparing what you think they're going to need, uh, in the field to layout.
Speaker 2:And are you using, um, what kind of software do you use in the office?
Speaker 3:I use AutoCAD just to be able to, to view the CAD drawings from the architect. And also one of the awesome things about this technology that kind of amazes people out in the field is you can take different drawings and overlay them, um, and that can all be on your controller. So I can turn on, let me turn on the foundation plan. All right, let me turn on the first floor architectural plan. And I have them both on at the same time and see how the walls line up as, and now let me turn on the anchor bolt plan and the plumbing plan and all this stuff. So that's the CAD part where I organize and overlay the CAD files together. Then I export that and I just put it on to our controller. I have my own controller and from the, the software, uh, magnet field layout, that's what I use top comm magnet field layout. Uh, I just start picking points from within that software. And that's it. So really it's just AutoCAD and the layout software that comes with the instrument that goes on the controller.
Speaker 2:Um, you got to think that CAD a three letter acronym, um, it scares people, right? Uh, those guys out there who, uh, you know, especially concrete contractors, you know, they work off of plans. And when you mentioned CAD that's that's no, no, no, not us. So did you ever take a course in auto CAD? Um, or, you know, what, what was your, what's your background and no, no. Huh. Okay.
Speaker 3:Uh, YouTube, you can learn anything on YouTube. Um, yeah. And, and you don't need to know 90% of what's on AutoCAD. You only need to know a few simple tasks to perform on AutoCAD. It it's really it's, it's not, it's not as intimidating as it seems, because I was pretty intimidated to, in fact, um, when, when I worked for the GC, we had our own, um, BIM coordinator in the office who would just provide us with the CAD files. So I never even had any CAD experience prior to going to the concrete company. But when I did go to the concrete company, I said, Hey, uh, you should get AutoCAD too, because, uh, we need that, you know, if we to have background images and, and, uh, I know I could just figure it out, so get it and I'll figure it out. And it didn't take that long to figure out. Um, so I wouldn't be too intimidated by your, you don't have to do the same thing the architects have to do. You're not designing a building. All we're doing is just looking at the files and, and moving, uh, copying and pasting and saving. That's that's really about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It seems like, um, you know, contractors today have a couple of different options. I have some that use AutoCAD. I have some that have made the transition to Revvit. Mike, where do you sit? Do you guys, have you looked into Revvit or do you see yourselves moving over there? And I get it, I get a lot of those questions from my contractor community coming in and asking, you know, what are, what does everybody else doing? Uh, Mike, what are you guys doing?
Speaker 3:Well, I think, um, well, what we do is we do AutoCAD, so it's all two D it's. It's just like you're looking at the plans, uh, exact same thing. So we have not started using Revvit and I don't think we will, anytime soon, I think that the industry is, as far as layout goes, is transitioning to, uh, AutoCAD for now. And then I imagine the next step would be Revvit, which would be the 3d kind of, uh, layout. So, but I couldn't be wrong. I don't know. I feel comfortable with, and I think it's the next step is, is AutoCAD and 2d layout. Um, then I think after that really picks up and architects start realizing people who are using their, uh, models for layout in the field. Then I think we'll see a transition more into Revvit, uh, the, right now. Yeah. AutoCAD is the, the easiest, most straightforward. It looks like the plans. Right.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, Mike, I know that, um, obviously this is, is a weird time for a lot of people, right? Uh, it sounds like you guys are fortunate enough to have, uh, have a lot of work right now and so forth. Great for you guys. Um, what is, what is today and what's going on? How has that affected you? Has that impacted you guys at all? And, you know, uh, maybe talk about maybe some OSHA and how are you guys abiding by some of the job site, safety, regulations and policies that are in place today?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, as far as getting work, um, we've, when, when COVID first hit, we actually got a lot of work that hit at the same time. I don't, I don't know why, but, um, I think everybody was in a hurry to try and these jobs started before people bailed on it. But, uh, since then the work has not really slowed for us. Um, w we're still very busy and a lot of that might, could possibly be, and this is what customers have said too, is that, you know, you guys have the, the high-tech layout equipment and we trust your layout. And, and so it, it having this equipment it's actually helped us get new customers and, um, you know, get a lot of work. Um, and as far as safety, uh, like I suppose, you know, for me, I can, I don't have to work in a, in a field, um, with this, with, um, creating a point files. So I can work from home. I'm usually working from home. Uh, I will go up to the field a couple of days a week, but yeah, you don't have to have two people working on top of each other, uh, doing loud on the old station. You know, it's just, if one guy goes out there and does layout by himself, then he's distancing themselves from everyone. And, um, it, yeah, using the robotic, I mean, it's a, it's a solo one, one man job. So it's kinda, COVID built into, you know, you're already,
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does help. It does help companies that adhere to those, uh, the new policy and regulations and, and safety, right. Uh, no longer having those two guys close together, pulling a tape measure. And, and by the way, a robot doesn't call in sick. I always used to joke around and say, you know, and the nice thing about having a robotic total station is, um, you know, it, it, it won't call in sick. It doesn't complain if it's too cold, it doesn't care if it's raining or snowing out. Right. So you have a pretty reliable, uh, layout buddy right there. So that's pretty good. Um, uh, Mike, is there, is there anything else about the, uh, the layout? I think that, listen, I think for someone who within, you know, five years had basically went from, you know, from the army into construction, quickly adopt a technology in essentially what you did is you went into, uh, to, uh, you know, to another opportunity, created a new position for yourself and kind of transformed and shape that department. Um, what have been, I mean, as far as, I mean, obviously time, I you're doing things faster now, um, money, do you guys still make as many mistakes? I mean, what what's
Speaker 3:Yeah. Uh, I mean, so th the major benefits of having this is time and, uh, not as many mistakes, so you're doing the work way faster. You're getting it done faster, and you're making, uh, far fewer mistakes. I mean, we're all human, so there's still mistakes, but it's a major noticeable reduction in mistakes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and also, um, Mike, I think it's incredible. So you've kind of transformed, you're now out of the field and you're doing the points, uh, creation back in the office and, um, and helping your, your, your, your, uh, your layout team and your layout crew members, um, you know, if needed, but you're providing those files to them. Um, I think it's amazing what you've done for that company, and I'm pretty sure the owner probably feels the same way. I know it's always, I, I always joke too, that, uh, it feels like, yeah, you spend six months training somebody up and you finally have somebody that's good. And, and then a competitor comes along and they're gone. And 50, you know, they offer them 50 cents more on the dollar and they're gone. Right. So, uh, to be able to take somebody that doesn't have any experience and help them get into advanced layout systems like this, um, is truly incredible. Uh, so I think that's great. And you're truly helping, um, obviously the general contractors must love it too, right. Because you're able to, to hear home layout, how many times do other trades come up to you and ask you, Hey, uh, can you guys come help me lay out this? Can you check me here? Can you check me there?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. That's, it's funny you ask, because, uh, that's what I was doing right before this. Um, today that's what I was working on. Um, we're, we're doing a podium slab where there's all the plumbers and electricians have a bunch of sleeves. They need like hundreds of sleeves and they all gotta be in the right spot. So they said, well, uh, you know, you guys are, you've got the equipment and all, and the know-how and all that stuff. Why don't we just have you guys lay out all these sleeps for us? And so, um, yeah, so that's what I was putting in a controller. I was putting all the plumber sleeves in and, uh, once we get the podium, uh, shoring up, we're going to go ahead and lay out all the sleeves and the plumbers can just put their sleeves there. Now we'll pour the slab and, uh, should work out if you miss a spleen. Yeah. And that happens all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What happens if you miss a sleeve or if one of the plumbers or electricians, what if they miss a sleeve?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, they got a core drill it and hit rebar and all that.
Speaker 2:They got to come back after the concrete's cured and they got to core through the concrete, and they probably, if it's a, a post-tension deck, right, then they got to get ground penetrating radar to scan the deck to make sure that they it's not, if you hit rebar, it's when you hit rebar or, uh, the post-tension cable, you know, how much damage does it do. Right. So, um, and that can be very costly, very costly. So
Speaker 3:Having these instruments is it is an awesome way to coordinate between the trades. And if you have an instrument and the other trades, don't, there's a good chance. You can pick up some layout, work off of them, um, and really just help the whole project alpha keeping everyone on the same page as far as layout. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. That's a really, that's a good point too. Um, you know, a lot of people think about liability when it comes to that. Uh, what are your thoughts on if somebody comes up and asks you to do some of their layout, is there a liability behind that? Or can you talk about that?
Speaker 3:I just make sure that, um, that it is coordinated beforehand and that they send me an email exactly what they want. Um, you know, if, if the dimensions are in the drawings, then that's great. If they aren't and they want me to lay out sleeves, then just Mark up the dimensions they want, or, you know, you got, you, you do want to cover yourself and make sure that, uh, you have something to fall back on and that everyone's on the same page and all that. So, uh, but that's, that's pretty easy. I mean, you just ask, Hey, if you want me to lay it out, just give me a, um, a PDF with marked up what you want and I'll put into my control or we'll lay it out and that's, or, or even, um, easier than that. Like if the masons want brick points, I do that a lot. Uh that's all right there on the drawing. So, you know, um, if it's pretty easy to just get it right at, knock on wood, I haven't had anything wrong yet. I mean, I'm sure I would, but I dunno, it's also, you can always put in there, you know, you guys I'm laying this out, but double check me, you know, and that's, that's basically what surveyors do anyways is just that they'll give you, they'll give you a brick points and they say, you know, here it is, but we're not technically responsible for this, but yeah, I don't worry about it too much. Um,
Speaker 2:You mentioned something there when you were describing that, um, Hey, just give me the PDF. I could use that too. So you can, yeah, I know that you use your AutoCAD files, um, in 3d model, you could do 3d models and so forth, but, um, you also can import a PDF into your field controller. Do you, so you find that, um, that you use PDFs as well.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's a pretty easy way, um, to get whatever you want without having to, uh, take the time to ask. I don't know, like for example, I always convert the anchor bolt drawings. Uh, I just have a, I never asked for the AutoCAD and I just convert that to a CAD file and upload that. So you can pretty much take any, any drawing you want, um, and convert it into a CAD file. And that's really simple actually. That's to do that. That's on my YouTube channel to you walks you through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've seen that video. That's um, yeah, that's, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So that's, I mean, that, to me, that's really great because if it's just picture you have a whole set of plans, um, you can take any page you want and just have it on a background and you could take multiple pages and just put them on top of each other and turn a couple on turn a couple of, kind of see how it all jives together. That's a huge advantage.
Speaker 2:And that's obviously, um, it sounds like an, a tremendous improvement to the workflow as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and to go back a little bit on what you're saying before about, uh, I went to a company, basically created a position. I mean, I really think that that's possible for so many companies now, um, that, that it's a huge opportunity in the construction field. If, if you're a Forman or anything like that, and you're doing layout, you could really take over and create your own layout department, just like I did easily. Um, so I, I just think it's a huge untapped opportunity that people are starting to pick up on it, but that's definitely where it's going.
Speaker 2:You're going to get a ton of calls on saying, Mike, I heard you, uh, how can I do this wooded shoe too? And what can I do here to, to so that I can create a department. And that just sounds awesome. Um, so just be, be prepared. Um, Mike, we're going to get down to the, uh, and that's really good stuff by the way, really good stuff. Um, and I appreciate that. Um, I want to get down to, uh, what I like to call our final four questions. Um, Mike, what has been your favorite project in why?
Speaker 3:All right. So my favorite project, uh, my favorite projects in general are schools. Uh, just because I like, you know, I, I like I liked high school a lot and, and, uh, I, I dunno, I feel like I'm building something that's giving back to society and all of that. So schools are great. And my favorite project in particular was the high school we did. It was a really big high school. And, um, it was pretty challenging, but, uh, like there was a lot of arcs, a lot curved walls. And
Speaker 2:Was it a new, was it a newly construct, was a new construction or right.
Speaker 3:Uh two-story I think it's a a hundred million dollar, uh, high school. Um, it was the biggest one in the County. Uh, it was a beautiful school. Um, but yeah, I, I like schools a lot and I liked that one in particular had a really big auditorium. And so I got to lay out all these, uh, curved, concrete seating, uh, and there's a lot of cool little challenges, tons and tons of anchor bolts. I think there was like 2,800 anchor bolts in schools. They S what is fun, because a lot of people, they, they look at something like that and, and, uh, they're like, Oh, man, this is going to be tough to lay out. But, uh, having the instruments like, heck yeah, bring it on. Like, I love radius that, all that stuff. It's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well that enthusiasm, uh, bike footed you. So this is a new school. Um, I I've always felt like, you know, when we talk about timelines day, right. Contractors are expected to do a lot more with less. Um, what was the timeline that you guys had on this project?
Speaker 3:Well, the whole, the whole project I think was two years. Um, but we got our footing stone in like two months, I think. Um, so we're, we were ahead and we were, we were really, um, moving along fast and really got it done. Um, so yeah, I mean, that's having the instrument made us way faster than we would have been. And, and people were noticing how fast we were running people over the plumbers were the plumbers supposed to put their trunk lines in first. And, uh, and if they didn't get it done and, and the GCs wanted to get it done. So they were like, you know, if they're not done just blaze on ahead of them. And that's what we did.
Speaker 2:Does it help your relationship with general contractors now that you're at the, uh, you know, at the trade level here, a specialty contractor, if you will, but, um, as a concrete goal, having robotic toes ain't, does that help your relationships with your GCs? Yeah. For sure that you work with, why is that?
Speaker 3:Well, they can, they build up a lot of trust in our work. Uh, they trust it's that it's accurate and
Speaker 2:That's so important. I feel like, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and, and the speed too. I mean, it gets done a lot faster and it's done it's so it's done fast and it's done accurate. And that's basically, you know, what a GC wants aside from obviously safety first, but productivity and being done right. Are the two main things. Uh, and, and it really helps deliver that with, with these stations. And, and like I said, it's, it's gotten us, uh, new customers, you know, that we'll get a new customer and I'll try this out with a little job and they'll see what we can do. And they're like, wow, okay. Here's a big job and we'll get more jobs from their own. So it definitely helps. And like you said, like I was saying before that also, if they need something extra laid out for another trade, we can always work that out too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's business. Um, yeah, that's really cool. Um, Mike, what's been the biggest mistake. It you've, I know you listed, like you said earlier, we're all humans. We make mistakes. What's been the biggest mistake that you've made in construction in your construction career. And what lessons have you learned from it?
Speaker 3:So the biggest mistake I made was
Speaker 2:I know, sorry to put you out there.
Speaker 3:Okay. We had a, um, a storage unit complex. We were building, it was like, I don't know, maybe six stories tall. And there was a basement that was all concrete, concrete walls. And then the first floor was all concrete walls and the first floor had an entrance and, and the plans were, uh, they didn't, they weren't very good. They, they didn't have a lot of dimensions and stuff. And, um, you can always just go by the CAD file, but really you want to, you want to have some dimensions on the plans as backup to point to and be like, yeah, well, look, this is what it's supposed to be. So they didn't have dimensions on, on the opening. And I wrote an RFI asking, w what, what size does this rough opening need to be in the concrete? Well, and they gave me an answer, well, about a month later, it was time to do the work. And I was super busy. And somewhere in my emails, I got an email, um, saying, you know, we've revised the opening size to make it bigger. And I, I missed it. And, um, so they went ahead and just put, uh, the opening in or to the original size I had told them to. And yeah, so we had to go back and cut the opening wider. And, um,
Speaker 2:How far along were you guys, how far was it, were you into the project? Um, when you had to go do that,
Speaker 3:I finished the concrete and they were putting up the steel and I think we were about to pour the slab. Um, so it wasn't, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't like, uh, you know, they realized when they were putting the storefront end and all, every Oh, the facade was done and all that, and that, Oh, it was still a fairly new, um, so, but we caught it and my lesson learned was keep track of your, uh, your drawings, all the revisions. You always got to keep track of that stuff. There's, they'll throw changes, throw curve balls at you last minute while, while everyone's, um, going full speed. That's, that's the one thing, if you, you get, uh, you get all this layout taken care of ahead of time, um, which is great. Uh, but you just gotta keep an eye out for changes. And just to update your point file as the change has come in and get it out to the field, which is the same without a controller anyways, without an instrument, you got to get the change out to the,
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's, it's a good point. You bring that up actually. And to that point, um, it, it's funny. I was, I had a conversation the other day and, uh, it was a contractor who was pulling a tape measure and then string. And, uh, he says, well, what if I make any mistakes? I said, okay, well then with a robotic total station, you'll be able to go back out and do it five times faster than what you're able to go back out and fix that mistake if you were doing it with a tape measure. So yeah, you might have mistakes, but you're still going to be able to get back out there and do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The, the overall, uh, net gain is, you know, positive compared to doing it the old way. You know, there's still a little mistakes here and there, but you've, you've made so many, uh, uh, just good things in between that more than makes up for a little hiccup here and there. I mean, overall, you're making this instrument makes money. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's, uh, that's the beauty of it. As long as you keep it busy, it's going to make you money. And that's what I like to say. Um, no, that's, that's good stuff, Mike. Um, my question number three, I'll move on to that one here. And, uh, where do you, Mike, where do you see construction technology going from here?
Speaker 3:Um, I think, I think we're kind of in the, I wouldn't say early stages of transitioning to, uh, everyone using robotic total stations for layout. I think we're, we're past the early stage, but we're definitely not, uh, where it's going to be at very soon. I think, I think very soon, uh, basically every trade out there, they're just going to be doing layout, uh, with these total stations. Um, as more and more people do it and you hear how much faster and all the benefits and everything, more people are going to start transitioning to it. So that's where I see it going. I'm seeing all, all the trades, uh, especially, let's say concrete, masonry, plumbing, electrical, um, uh, I've seen HVAC people using them though. They'll Mark out on the slab, um, all their points that are going to be up on the ceiling and they'll just shine a laser straight up to it. Um, so yeah, I mean, most of the trades and all of the, I'd say medium size, uh, jobs. Like, I, I don't know how many people, I suppose people will be using it for like house layout maybe, but you know, the typical construction job you see just driving around, um, 90% percent of that is perfect for these projects or for this, um, this technology. And like I said, I've never done a high rise or anything like that. I don't know what the challenges would be, but that's where I see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Every project is probably a little bit different, but, you know, I always say, Hey, if you're pulling a tape, man, this is a tape measure on steroids. And so anywhere you're going to pull a tape measure, you know, you could use a total station. Yep. Um, all right. Question number four. And last question. Uh, finally, uh, Mike, what would be your advice to those just starting out in the industry?
Speaker 3:I would say, uh, try to get him on, uh, a layout position of any sort, whether that's, if you're a foreman or, or actually on a layout crew. Uh, I think that, um, if you turn your focus towards layout, that's where the opportunity is right now. Um, and if you can convince your, uh, owner to go this direction, then just take, take the, uh, the wheel and drive it forward. And, uh, I think there's a lot of opportunity for, for people out there. So I would say, um, learn, just look into it more, look into the total stations, more, uh, learn about it, get good at your traditional layout, get good at reading, uh, your blueprints and you would be, uh, perfect for, for having one of these things in your company. And, and I think that really, that could, uh, step up your career position.
Speaker 2:Good stuff, Mike. Um, and I'm I'm with ya. Um, I definitely see there's a lot of opportunity out there and, um, and I think that's great. I think your story is fantastic and I hope that it's, you know, motivation and inspirational to a lot of those other guys that are out there and thinking, Hey, I've been doing this. What can I do? You know, what can I do next? Um, how can I embrace someone's technology? That's been out there and make a path, right. Go blaze your own path. What they kind of like you did. And with that is a little bit of risk, but, you know, look what you've been able to do and achieve. And like, I that's, um, I think that's truly commendable and, and, uh, and I really appreciate you sharing all that information. Um, and I think that's a great way to close out this episode, actually. Uh, Mike, why don't you let people know, uh, where can they get in touch with you? Where can they find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, well, I've got the YouTube channel where that originated with, I needed to train my guys. So basically I just made a bunch of training videos and threw it up on YouTube. And, but then I did a review and in smaller stuff, I'll put more videos on it, but that YouTube channel was called, um, layout tech. So yeah, it's kind of like, yeah. Layout technology, but also your position as a layout technician. So that's why I chose the name, but yeah, you can go there or you can email me at, uh, layout tech 20 twenty@gmail.com.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Awesome, Mike, I appreciate it. Um, you know, obviously, uh, you know, if you're interested in, want to hear more from Mike, please go reach out to them. Uh, truly phenomenal guy, Mike, it's always a pleasure and an honor and, um, whatever I can do to keep helping you move forward, please let me know. Um, and everybody else who's listening to the episode. Uh, if you want more, go ahead and hit the subscribe button and we'll deliver. Uh, thank you everyone. Mike. Thank you, sir. Have a great evening. And, uh, this is Matt Sawyer. I'll be sending off here with Topcon talks, construction
Speaker 1:[inaudible].