The path towards each state notifying how asphalt road resurfacing is to be performed can be daunting yet required. Let industry experts Don Matthews, P.E., Manager: Renew Pavement Division for Pavement Recycling Systems and George L. Chang, PhD, PE (NJ), Director of Research for Transtec Group, Inc. and the President and Founder of ISIC (International Society for Intelligent Construction) explain how important changes to the final phase of Intelligent Compaction protects financial investment, material management, and ultimately a smoother road.
The path towards each state notifying how asphalt road resurfacing is to be performed can be daunting yet required. Let industry experts Don Matthews, P.E., Manager: Renew Pavement Division for Pavement Recycling Systems and George L. Chang, PhD, PE (NJ), Director of Research for Transtec Group, Inc. and the President and Founder of ISIC (International Society for Intelligent Construction) explain how important changes to the final phase of Intelligent Compaction protects financial investment, material management, and ultimately a smoother road.
Welcome to Topcon talks, construction I'm Mark learn yoga, senior manager for business development in our intelligent paving division at Topcon, I'd like to welcome everyone to Topcon's podcast, uh, that we are going to be focused on, uh, our asphalt paving and our, our two professionals are industry leaders that, uh, uh, have a lot of influence in the market. And, uh, we're really excited that they're joining us today. Uh, George Chang, uh, from TransTech and also Don Matthews from PRS. Uh, I've asked you guys both to introduce yourselves. I'd like to, uh, give the audience a, a background of, of your, your, uh, experience and, and your, your, uh, professional, um, uh, part of, of the paving business. And then just a brief introduction of, of the companies you work with, if you wouldn't mind. So we'll start with you, George
Speaker 2:Sounds good. So I'm George Chan. I'm currently the director of research at the trends, the group, uh, in Austin, Texas. Uh, I also have founded the international society for intelligent construction.
Speaker 1:Thank you, George. Uh, Don, if I could turn it over to you.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Don Matthews. I'm the technical director and chief engineer for paper recycling systems. Uh, we're primarily a subcontractor does milling, uh, called a place recycling, um, and helping agencies with, uh, smoothness and implementing, um, some of the intelligent paving, uh, intelligent construction products that are on the market.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Don. And, and appreciate that as well. Uh, uh, we're excited again, like I said to, to get some of your feedback and how the industries, uh, it's changing. It's, it's an, it's obviously an evolving market and technology is obviously driving some of this. And so was, uh, wanting to go back to some of the previous projects. And George I'd asked you, if you wouldn't mind sharing me with, with the audience, uh, one of the projects you worked on, or maybe something in specific, uh, to IC that, uh, you guys, uh, had, had had some influence on you. You had some overview as well, and, and honestly, we were real curious about the results and what I see did for your, uh, for TransTech and maybe an agency that you worked alongside with.
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, I've been involved in the federal highway national implementation of icy intelligent can, uh, passion since 2007. So in 2012, that's when the every day count a federal highway to push IC to the countries. So late I've been working with not only the federal highway, but also the transportation profound study that have several dozen, the OTs working together to develop the IC specifications and also have demonstration of technology, as well as the, uh, helping the technical support for the OTs. So that's been more than 15 years of journey in this area, and we seen a different level of implementation in different parts of the country, and that will have to go through different stages in order to adapt and adjust and accept the new technologies. So there are a lot of lessons learned.
Speaker 1:Thank you, George, in particular, um, did you guys, you know, obviously you're seeing a, an advancement and it's, it's an improvement to the, the traditional process. Um, anything in particular that you've, uh, you've found on, on projects that IC has, uh, lended a, a benefit to
Speaker 2:It does. So there are more than 300 projects around the country. He's an IC since the 2007, uh, as we have observed in those projects, we have seen a drastic improvement in quality, uh, of the, uh, rhodium past count, for example, much more consistent than before. Uh, we had conducted so-called a blind test by you by not using IC and then using IC into the comparison, not just us, but also on the DOD, but down several tests in Minnesota and other, we'll see the drastic improvement. So we believe that by improving the road in pattern and consistency and uniformity, the IC can improve the quality of the pavement.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That's great. Now, obviously, with having that data in front of the, uh, the operator, they can, they can, uh, they can have that information at their hands, uh, instantly. And, uh, and I can, I can definitely attest to, uh, feedback from contractors and agencies that they're seeing a, uh, an improvement in that roller pattern and more consistent in that if that, uh, can be said as well. Uh, John, I'm going to turn it over to you as a contractor. You guys have been involved in IC projects as well as other technologies, but if you wouldn't mind sharing with us what it's meant to you as a, as a contractor and what, what, uh, what it's, uh, what it's done for you guys as business, and obviously how you utilize that technology as far as the intelligent compaction. So, um, like most things is tends to come out from the agency first what's required by the agency and like most things, there's always this learning lesson. Um, it's a hard to get wrapped up. It's a new process. Um, the, put it out.
Speaker 3:They want to incorporate it. Cause as George says, there is good, good performance that comes out of it. There, there better quality that comes out of it, where we found that where we were most effective is, is kind of being the bridge gap between our customers, the contractors who are going to use it and the agencies who are specifying it, um, cause our contractors themselves at first, they it's scary to them. It's new, but also it's an exposure that they've never had before. It's a different measurement that they're not used to. And you know, when you learn something, unfortunately there's always that concern about your pain and education fee for tuition. If you went and they did, you know, they something new. So we found it was helpful with us. We thought the benefit really well, you know, George talks about the blind tests. Every time we're going to do it with a contractor. And a lot of times we set it up for their equipment and their, their operators will use it. We would, we would have that. We do that test. It's very easy. Run the, run, a rolling pattern, tell them this, roll this area three times without the benefit of intelligence, compassion monitor. And then we brought it with it. And you would see when you tell somebody to roll three times in some areas, they may hit it nine times and other areas, they might've only hit it once. And it may be small little gap areas, but those are still isolated issues that could come out later. Those are potholes that could develop those types of things that could develop. So when we show them the benefit, people start really recognizing it and they, and it does improve and contractors, they want to use it. They want to know where they're cut that, where their, um, you know, how their crews are doing, but it's scary. They don't necessarily want the agency who controls the purse strings to know how they're doing a hundred percent of the location. So it's, that's where we kind of help try to bridge that gap and help contractors to get better with it. And then we just use it on all our projects. You know, we do have a certain area that we aren't so much a subcontractor. We general contract, we put it on there because we just don't want to have to come back. It's a cheap insurance to go ahead and build it right the first time.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you, Don. That's, that's very helpful. And, um, I'm sure that many contractors that have used it and, uh, have had the experience with it are, are, uh, are given some similar feedback. Like you said, that if, if we can help our, our agencies or our own company, it's all the better. And it's, it's about the end product, right? That's what we're trying to get done here. Um, Don, I'd ask you as well, now that we're on the technology track as, uh, PRS and, and, and how you guys evaluate technology. Um, uh, sometimes it's a specification for a, and sometimes it's not, you guys have, uh, been kind of a, uh, in our opinion, a very industry leader, you invested in a smooth ride you've invested in. I see other other technologies that, that you guys have not been asked to use as a, as a specification, but you guys have done it because you guys, uh, you see the value. How do you guys do that? And what is the process that PRS goes across to, to, uh, to add a new items to your, uh, to your, you know, your operation?
Speaker 3:Well, the, the first key is you got to commit to, to be a leader on this, our company, you know, we do really well with our operational, um, the visions, you know, servicing the customer, doing the work, all that, but that's what they're focused on. And, and we recognize that to really be a sustainable company. You need to also think about what's coming down in five years and in 10 years. And, uh, you don't want to have future shock. You don't want to think, Oh, I'm going to be doing the same thing I do today. That I'm going to be 10 years from now, because to be honest with you, you're going to be blockbuster. You're going to be out of business. You're going to have, you're going to be superseded if you don't pay attention to technology. So we keep an eye and ear to everything that's coming down. And that's our first, uh, our first kind of golden rule is the commitment to make sure that we're going to be the leader of what's coming out next. Then we take a look at it and say, okay, how is it going to hit the marketplace? Is it going to be best as a quality assurance tool? Is it going to be a quality control tool? And that's, I think the challenge we're having, right, this is there's this discussion of kind of the agencies think contractors should do it as quality control. And contractors goes, you know, until I'm really going to be measured at that. I don't, you know, I'm, I'm getting, I get measured at this level. And I have been for probably 40 years, if I'm not getting measured, you know, I was like to say the statement. We were, we were measured by yardsticks and now with intelligent, um, paving and, and all these products were measured by buying prompters. And we need to make sure that we understand the difference there. So like when we talk about the smooth ride system, we recognize that smoothest was huge. The state was, was, was giving it to their credit and end product specification of we need to get smoother. So the question is, how do we get smoother? And what's the future. And so we started looking at for our customers, Hey, if we milled it better before they did the paving, they could get, they wouldn't have an issue on, on the product or the Pavey behind it. And then, you know, can we do it on the pavers? And that's kind of the evolution, how we got it. We looked at how we can satisfy our customers. And especially when the state started putting out smooth as bonuses. Now we can get our customers, you know, we're a partner with them. We're not just a subcontract on some of the other technologies though. We just know they're going to come the state. They DLTs want them. They're going to give better products. They're going to last longer. And it's an it quite honestly, in the future, there will be autonomy. You know, construction sites, autonomous sites will occur. It's easier to do that in a construction site with a closed system than it is in the, uh, in the just regular automobiles. And the only way you can go to autonomy, which people are working on, whether it's five years or 10 years, or I don't know what it's going to occur is you first have to have measure measurement and feedback. So these tools provide the measurement and they're the next step. And it's our, it's, it's our feeling. We better know what, how we're going to be measured and be able to train our crews to be performed better now than to find out later that we were behind the, behind the time. And now all of a sudden we're getting disincentives and, and, and, and reduce without giving the quality that we can, we can and should give the tasks.
Speaker 1:No, thank you, Don. That's, uh, it's very helpful information. And I know that, uh, people in the audience are hearing from you. You guys are, you, you're an early adopter because you know, it's coming and, and, and by doing that, you, uh, you're already getting that technology experience and seeing how to incorporate it with things that are going to become specifications or, or just part of what paving's going to generally turn into. So, uh, it's excellent to know how PRS is handling that. And, uh, obviously excited about you guys continuing to, uh, implement different technologies, uh, as you call it the, uh, the intelligent construction site or, or we, we, we kind of specifically say paving, but it's much more than just, uh, the paving, right. Um, Georgia, uh, I'd want to ask you a question. Uh, it's getting back into the, uh, the different agencies. Uh, one of the things that has, um, has had an, uh, uh, maybe an update is, is thermal mapper and thermal mapping in general. And if you wouldn't mind sharing with the audience, what those changes are coming for this season and, and really why those changes came about from what, what we were doing in the past.
Speaker 2:All right. So the, uh, agency has implement that for thermal profiling, mostly if by following the Ashdale standard PP 80 currently, uh, the version is 2017. It's called PP 80 dash one seven. The, uh, the entire title is kind of mouthful, paver mounted, thermal profiler. So that was, uh, based out of, uh, daycare's long study in Texas and Washington watching the DLT to include the Thermo profiling, um, back of the paver in real time, and use the data for, uh, determined every 150 feet subplot to be either no segregation or moderate segregated, or very severely segregated by very simple statistic. So that's all tied to the density and performance of that, uh, the payment, uh, study in Texas and also Washington DC, uh, that the OT, so the changes are coming. So there are several different changes. Uh, firstly, uh, th the first changes, uh, will be the precision of the GPS requirement for the PMT P or thermal profiling. The currently of the requirement is the G DGPS, uh, differential GPS with about four feet, uh, precision and the upcoming, but already implemented in Minnesota is require our TK real-time cam and medic, which is 70 gray half an inch, uh, uh, precision why we're doing this because DLT the wand to integrate all the intelligent construction technology data together, uh, where the ICS and using RTK where the thermal profiling using the DGPS, they cannot combine the two data. Uh, another reason that that such changes is made, uh, already made in Minnesota and maybe work international PP 80 is, uh, the using the DGPS four feet of precision. It can already use the boundary data, which is a survey boundary on the daily, uh, paving boundary for filtering or filtering this lane versus that lane. It is possible right now with the four feet of precision. Another of the upcoming changes for this, uh, standard will be how we determine the segregation. Currently. The method is a very simple statistic based on a decade old studies, but the new study in the past 10 years has shown that there's some vacation index is so insufficient in sufficiently to identify when you have Thermo streets say along the gearbox, that may turn into a longer tenor crack down the road. So they need a they're in up four or five years ago when he, Minnesota DLT and us translate group have worked together to come out. A new index is called the thermal segregation index that you use two components. One is based on the conventional segregation overall segregation within a 150 feet. Another one is so-called the Thermo streets he was using. So-called the semi bear program. So there's a new index had been piloted in the past two, three years in Minnesota, and we've been using similar study in Missouri. So that show, the new index can better identified the temperatures, temperatures, segregation, overall segregation, as well as a Thermo street. So those are two upcoming changes in down the road.
Speaker 1:Thank you, George. And I'm glad you explained that so thoroughly, I know that a lot of people that are going to be listening in, um, are very curious about it because, uh, they're, they're going to need to make those changes. And, uh, and, and obviously, uh, have, have the details of one why, why we changed them and of course, the benefits to those changes. So that glad that was explained, uh, Don, as far as PRS, uh, you know, these changes come across, it could be a thermal mapper, it could be a smoothness changes, um, or it could even be, you know, intelligent compaction, just different ways that, uh, uh, agencies are, are, uh, expecting the contractor to, to actually get the, uh, the project, uh, completed. Um, how do you guys, uh, as far as these changes, how do you, how do you suggest a contractor manage these things? It could be very daunting, like you said earlier. Uh, you know, there's some, some fear factor to, to, to different technologies. Is there something you can, uh, you can shed light on that, uh, you guys do a PRS that might, uh, might give a contractor a little bit more comfort when, uh, George tells us about these, these things that are going to be, uh, uh, mandated or, or even specified in certain areas.
Speaker 3:The first, I don't want to do a sales pitch on it, but w w one of the things we, we are successful, uh, is that we do, you know, so like my ears perked up immediately, as George says, what those changes are. We make a commitment to, to understand them and to become better at them, or, you know, more educated on them right away. Um, because in the inherent construction business, most contractors don't have the time or luxury to have an engineer on staff to go ahead and learn all these things. So they, they need help. And we found them, we found that we could just help contractors, but I'm not trying to do that as a sales pitch. What I really advocate is a true partnership from the agency standpoint. And that's kind of the most elusive term that we have contractors and agencies partnering together. Um, Minnesota does it well when, when, when they have changes coming out, they don't ready fire aim. They go ahead and say, Hey, we got this coming out. They talked to the, the contracting group. They explain what it is, how it's going to pack them. And then they have, they put on their projects, a certain honeymoon say so to speak that they are able to see how it does, how that impacts them, gives them real data without going to a penalty or a room or place. Unfortunately, a lot of agencies just go from zero to 60 miles an hour. They put in a specification, they don't even understand it, um, as well as, as much as they should have it. And then they, they expect the contractors to figure out and do it, and then essentially beat the contractors in submission to get it right. And that just causes chaos. Um, you know, I, we try to try to be the intermediate. A lot of things, I look at the, the agencies want to put it out, but also being a contractor, knowing the contractor's mentality, being able to explain and help and do it in a systematic approach for success. There should be no reason you need an intermediary. It should be an agency contractor working together in a phased approach of we're bringing this out. Oh, by the way, here's the new changes. George explained the why. A lot of times the why isn't explained really well, he explained the why to the contractor and you give them that understanding, okay, I understand the why. Now this is real. I got to do it, but, you know, help me get there. And it'll be success. If they work together in a phased approach, it's coming out, let's do some projects. Here's your feedback. We w we want you to get this, you know, improve your, your, um, your crews. Uh, w w w we find that in anything that comes out with an agency, if you take that approach, you'll get success. If you throw it out and hope people figure it out, it causes chaos, and it causes essentially backlash and people going to politicians and all that kind of stuff. And that's not the way we, it's not best for the taxpayers we need to, we need to get a, a partner to approach.
Speaker 1:Well, that makes a ton of sense, Don. And I think you said it well, as far as that partnership needs to be, uh, established and, and clear and, and defined, uh, reasons as to why it's, it's being implemented. And what needs to be implemented is, is key. There is what you brought up and I'm glad you, uh, you spoke about that. Um, let's, let's, uh, I want to conclude with, uh, one last question to both of you in this question is, um, we just talked about how the agencies are, are bringing technology from the top down. Uh, let's take it the other way. Let's bring, uh, technology from the contractor to the agency. And I know that a lot of us are curious is how is the best way to approach an agency with new technologies that you feel would actually have a positive impact? There's the, uh, the trans tech group that has, uh, is obviously doing research and evaluating these things that we'll, we'll, uh, we'll, uh, give the agency some, a subjective determination on if they'll do that. And then Dawn you, and, and, and PRS, you guys are out there looking to get a, uh, possibly a competitive edge or something that that's going to separate you. And you're going to take that to the agency, or even to a, another contractor that you might be a sub for, and, and your, your, uh, your existence is as far as getting that to them. But, uh, just wanting to get a better perspective from both of you, as far as agencies, how would it, how would a, a contractor, or how would a, uh, a, a new technology be accepted and what's the best approach to, to, uh, to introduce that to, uh, whether it be a DOD or a federal highways, Ash tour, any of the above. So George, I'll start with you, and then I'll let Dawn, uh, finish up with that.
Speaker 2:Yes. As I mentioned, I've been working with federal highway and pull fan studies and all pretty much all 50 States, uh, to try the mature, intelligent construction technology and implement it through their pilot study and specification the environment and all that. So, uh, it's going to be a learning curve at a dimension, not just for the agency, but also for the contractor in that state. Uh, so the, the best way is to engage those DLTs worth the, uh, poor fund study, which have decades, uh, uh, of the such experience lessons learned, uh, technology, supply issues, demand issues, specification, how to pilot and all these have been lessons learned and still learning. And that's why we have been engaged with the pool fund study since 2012. Uh, uh, the preview one is as close on seven. Uh, and currently we have another profound studies called national road research Alliance, and a phase two kick-off in 2021 for the next five years. That's a best, uh, a, uh, entity that DLT can be engaged with and learn about those lessons learned in the past two decades. And also what's a plan, uh, and research and implementation for the years to come. So that's the, but that's the best profound study that, uh, our highly recommend the, to, to be engaged with.
Speaker 1:Thank you, George. And so, um, uh, in, in, in quick summary, is it, is it something that, uh, they could get with, uh, the DOTD first or is that, is that a better done through the puleston, uh, committee and, and, and funds there? Is that, is that something you would recommend and, and, uh, direct people to,
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, I've been working with all 50 States, the OT, as you, as I mentioned, uh, DLT sometimes have skepticism, uh, tours, whoever know, come and found the industry selling on a sales page or certain technology, but through the poor fan study, I think, uh, and also federal highway recommendation and AASHTO also that take a lot of credibility, uh, for DLT, at least to understand, and then to try and, uh, and have a plan to implement such a technology. And Dan does mention about any innovation technology, it's just disrupted technology. It can be a learning curve and it may take stage, uh, to get from zero to 60 miles per hour. So that's definitely why I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, George. Appreciate that. Don, I'll turn that question over to you and you know, how you guys, uh, being that you're in molt, multiple States, you've had to work with various agencies, and again, you guys, uh, have been, uh, first adopters to a lot of technologies in particular, smooth ride with Topcon and, and other products. You know, what, what approach do you recommend, uh, for a contractor to, to take and, and some of the success you've guys have, have seen in your past experience?
Speaker 3:Well, the first thing I want to do is, is there's gotta be a recognition. If when you asked me, could you give me a quality control tool that I would know exactly how all my crews are doing, how good they're doing, and I can improve all my crews. That answer will be yes, on that. Um, if I can find a return on that investment that says I can get better. So I kind of have a multiple stage answer first. I want to go back to the return on the investment to the contractor, but I also, you know, yeah, I want to know, I want to know how they're doing, but when you, all of a sudden I realized that same tool could completely disrupt by the way that things have been done for 40 years. I mean, if you think about it, how, if you, if you look at it as a quality assurance tool, um, which ultimate they'll get to right now, the way the testing is I, I get 5% of my roadway tested. So 95% of it. Yeah. Statistically, you're going okay. Well that represents a good, the 5% repre. Good, good to that represents good on that. But there's areas nobody's perfect. There's areas of that road and maybe had a paver stop. Maybe I, you know, the truck didn't dump it so smoothly, you know, and I got, I, I was never measured on that before, other than just, you know, very, um, subjectively inspector. Might've seen that might've said something to me now, I have a tool that says like the thermal profiler as a contractor, I can argue that is an excellent tool. And I can argue it's going to be the worst tool has ever put on my paper. Okay. It's an excellent tool because I can see now if the truck drivers are, are dumping badly, I can see that I can improve that I can get, I can make communications with the crew and say, Hey, you know what, get another truck out here where we're stopping the paver too often, all of that I can use, but guess who else can see that the agency? And now all of a sudden, am I going to every time I have a tight paver stop, that's where I get cord for density. So first let's just recognize the elephant in the room on that, and then figure out the best solution. Because ultimately there is no doubt in my mind that the thermal profiler will be required as standard piece of equipment on every paper in the future. But until that, there's going to be this resistance to say, yeah, I want to have it. But I had an error when I gave that data. Okay. I just don't want to give the agency that, that data. So then what do you look at? Return on investment? You know, George and I've talked about this several times is why do I get better? I'm not paid for better on so many of these projects I'm paid for good enough. And for me to invest in this, when it's not required, why am I getting paid for it? Now you all of a sudden give me incentives. Now I have a reason to get better. And, you know, FH w a figured it out. But for some reason, the state deities can't figure it out. You, the States never pay these incentives out. Uh, I'll give you an example in California, they put bonuses in for smoothness and they put it in and they're paying a lot of bonuses and they're readjusting it. But the conversations I get from my customers are bidding. That is how much bonus should I bid into this job? Look at the data because they want the work. The bonuses will help them get, if they cruise get better, they'll get that bonus. And they can take that bonus off the bid. So they get more work. And so ultimately by inset doing true, good bonus factors, incentivize it, the contractor to get better at the bottom line is anything you measure will improve. And if you measure it, I will improve it. And either you're going to hit me with the sick with a D Dr. Removal, some agencies take that up, that, or you're going to hit me with the carrot that I realized I can get some more money. I can bid that into my bid and I can get more work. And that's kind of the way we're looking at it. We've looked at it as, um, well, you know what a perfect example, I'll add with a perfect example. Two major contractors in California, one of them, every time we give them a million stuff, price, they want us to use the smooth right system. They want us to do that because they know it turns out really well for them. So we got a call from another major contractor and says, Hey, we want you to talk to our big comp, uh, you know, our big company. We have, uh, an annual meeting, talk to him about this. We want to know what you guys offer. And so we're like, okay, great. We can do that. We, we do it a lot for customers and explain that, but it got right down to it. They made the statement, they drove on a highway that the other contractor built. And they said there was no way that contractor could get it, built that well. And they said, Hey, they knew PRS had something to do with the smoothness on it. And they wanted us to tell them what, you know, how, what we do and how we got them to get that Pavey on there. And that's right. There is a perfect example of a rising tide starts floating all boats. If we just start doing it more good, contractors will adapt. They'll, we'll figure out how to do it, and they'll get better. Other contractors, you know, maybe they, maybe they should
Speaker 1:Start selling pizzas or something else. Thank you, Don. No, that's, uh, well said. And, and, uh, it's, it's a, an, a Testament to PRS and in what they've done and, and investing in technology, obviously the smooth ride system has done, uh, a great deal of, uh, improvement as far as what the end product is. And you said it well, both you and George. Uh, it really, I, I, I took out of this partnerships, right? It's, it's, uh, to be able to deal with agencies, you gotta, you gotta have that trust between the two of you. And in that, that's what gives them the ability to, to bring new technologies in, or when technologies are, uh, mandated, specified, uh, you get a better idea of why that's done, and it's a clearer, uh, concise communication. Uh, but again, it all, it all starts with the relationship and, and, and getting that partnership put together. Guys, I want to thank you from top cons, uh, perspective. Um, my name is Mark Larnelle guy was, uh, great to host you. Uh, uh, Topcon is, uh, continue to be invested in the paving industry. Uh, we are bringing out new technologies and we're excited to hear how you guys have shared what what's coming, um, in the agency world and how a contractor is adapting to those changes, or even, uh, implementing technologies that are not, uh, uh, mandated or specified. And we want to thank you for your time today, and, uh, look forward to the future and paving you guys are the leaders and, and, uh, and helping us shape that. So great to have you on, uh, this morning and look forward to the future.
Speaker 4:[inaudible].