When The Salvation Army began in London, England, Salvationists faced opposition from various groups—including one called the Skeleton Army.
The dramatic true story of the conflict between the Skeletons and the Salvationists comes to life in a new musical called "Skeleton Army," which will make its Canadian debut at The Salvation Army’s INSPIRE Conference and Congress this summer.
On this episode of the podcast, Kathryn and Kyle Higgins, the stars of Skeleton Army, give us a behind the scenes look.
Visit Salvationist.ca/Inspire to learn more about the INSPIRE Conference and Congress, taking place in Toronto from June 26-July 2.
When The Salvation Army began in London, England, Salvationists faced opposition from various groups—including one called the Skeleton Army.
The dramatic true story of the conflict between the Skeletons and the Salvationists comes to life in a new musical called "Skeleton Army," which will make its Canadian debut at The Salvation Army’s INSPIRE Conference and Congress this summer.
On this episode of the podcast, Kathryn and Kyle Higgins, the stars of Skeleton Army, give us a behind the scenes look.
Visit Salvationist.ca/Inspire to learn more about the INSPIRE Conference and Congress, taking place in Toronto from June 26-July 2.
Kristin Ostensen
This is the Salvationist Podcast. I'm Kristin Ostensen. When The Salvation Army began in London, England, early Salvationists faced opposition from various groups—including one called the Skeleton Army. The confrontations between the Skeletons and The Salvation Army often resulted in open rioting, even violence. The dramatic true story of this conflict comes to life in a new musical called Skeleton Army, which will make its Canadian debut at The Salvation Army’s INSPIRE Conference and Congress in June. On this episode of the Salvationist podcast, Kathryn and Kyle Higgins, the stars of Skeleton Army, give us a behind the scenes look.
Hi, Kathryn. Hi, Kyle. Welcome to the Salvationist podcast.
Kathryn Higgins
Hello.
Kyle Higgins
Hi.
Kristin Ostensen
It's great to have you today. So first off, can you tell us, what is Skeleton Army all about?
Kyle Higgins
Skeleton Army is a musical that is set in 1860s London—so, right at the beginning of The Salvation Army. It focuses on a man, a real historical man named Charles Jeffries, who was a leading member of the anti-Salvation Army gang called the Skeleton Army. And the story focuses on his relationship with The Salvation Army and his conversion into The Salvation Army—that happens during the musical—and also about kind of his legacy afterwards. He actually goes from being the top general in an anti-Salvation Army gang to being the principal at the International College for Officers Training in London. So, it’s such a great transformation story that it's kind of hard to read his life and not want to turn it into something dramatic.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, it sounds like there's so much drama to be mined there. And how cool is it that it's actually based on a true story and not just a fictional one? So, how did the two of you first get involved in the production of Skeleton Army? And what drew you to the story?
Kathryn Higgins
It was Neil Leduke, actually, who took the story of Skeleton Army and Charles Jeffries specifically—his story of redemption—and thought, Wouldn't this be a great musical? And this was years ago—this was like 2017. And he, I think he had just been sharing this idea of a really large show with a big cast with a few people he cared about. And I don't know how he and I originally connected, but my husband and I were looking for a show to do. We have a friend Brad Cain, who's the director, who we wanted to work with him, we wanted to do a two-person show. And I was searching high and low for a two-person musical that we could kind of take on the road, that was faith-based. And it's really hard to find a two-person faith-based musical that is compelling. So, I can't remember how I first got wind of Neil's idea, but we connected and he shared his ideas with me. And I remember thinking, I wonder if this could be two people, which is a wild thought because the show is about essentially two gangs. We've got The Salvation Army and the Skeleton Army. So right there, that's a cast of, you know, several hundred people. [laughs] But, you know, could we do it just for two? And that's when I connected with Len Ballantine, the great, who is also my dad, and Brad Cain, and Neil, and we brought everybody in to New York to have a chat and see, how could this idea evolve? Oh, and of course, how silly of me—John Copeland is the writer, and he, Neil came with piles of ideas. And we kind of hashed it out as a team before leaving it with John, the writer, and Len, the writer of the music, and they kind of took it from there. So, we had this one meeting where we threw all these ideas around, and then the two of them took it and ran with it. And that's kind of how it ended up, how it is now.
Kristin Ostensen
So how long was that between sort of the initial idea and then the debut, which happened in New York in 2019?
Kathryn Higgins
Well, yeah, I think we first got together, maybe discussions were beginning 2017, 2018. And then we tried to open the show, we did several previews, and in the final preview—we kind of did previews in different locations. When you're starting a new show, you can't just write it and direct it, and then throw it at a crowd and say, that's the end, because you really need to feel it out with the audience and feel the pace of it and understand the give and take and what's missing or what's too long. And so, you need those previews, and space between them—for us, anyway, creating a new production—to really get specific about what we wanted it to say and how it needed to look. But in the last preview, Kyle—maybe you want to tell this story—ruptured his Achilles tendon.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, no!
Kyle Higgins
Yeah.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, my goodness!
Kyle Higgins
It was during the rehearsal, right before the preview. And yeah, it set us back months.
Kristin Ostensen
What happened?
Kyle Higgins
In one of the rehearsals, we were just going through it, and I guess I got too passionate, and I pivoted really quickly, and I heard this popping sound. I thought it was one of the drama blocks that had fallen or something. And I thought it fell on my leg. And I kind of sat down and we realized, no, this all happened internally. We got to get to the emergency and [laughs].
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, my goodness. Oh, wow. So, the recovery was rough?
Kathryn Higgins
This incident pushed the show back about six months. Right, Kyle? It's a major surgery and long recovery. So, we ended up having to push the opening. But we opened eventually. [laughs]
Kristin Ostensen
It must have made it all the more sweet when you did open, kind of having overcome some unfortunate obstacles. And when you did debut officially in 2019, how did it go? And how did people respond?
Kyle Higgins
I thought it went great. It was really neat being able to open up in the heart of New York City; it felt kind of extra special doing it there. We opened at Time Square Corps in New York—they have this really nice kind of black box theatre space. And it suited the way that the play was staged, which is kind of, it's almost in the round. It's a … stage, so you're surrounded by the by the audience while you're performing, it’s a nice, enclosed space that was just perfect for the energy of the show.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah. Oh, that's very cool. And Kathryn, as you mentioned, your father, Major Len Ballantine, wrote the music and lyrics. So, this really is a family affair because, of course, you two are a married couple. So, what has that part of the experience been like, doing this almost as a family?
Kathryn Higgins
Well, amazing, because, well, I've never had a musical written specifically for me. You end up having—in theatre, you play roles, you fit yourself into a role. You get handed music, and you go, Well, I guess I better figure out how to hit that note, which I've never done before, or, you know, developing an accent that is not your strong suit. But with this show, it was really, really unique to basically—I don't think anyone knows me as well as my dad, maybe—you know, no one knows you as well as your family. So, having something written specifically for you, right in your range, knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are. When we first got the music, and we started singing through it, I was like, Wow, this fits right in the pocket. You know, this is a really interesting feeling. So yeah, just from that sense, like, really exciting to have something written with you in mind. I don't know that that's ever happened before for me.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah. Now that is very cool. Did you have conversations with your father sort of behind the scenes to talk about some of those musical decisions, or did he just sort of know and wrote in that way?
Kathryn Higgins
Well, he knows. You know, I grew up, he would transpose everything down because I wanted to belt everything when I was young, younger. So, we lived many years with him editing music on the fly, or transposing on the fly, to accommodate for what I was excited about doing. So, I think he was already, it was just sort of innate for him to put it in, you know, keep it in a certain range or know that a certain character would have—well, for example, I play three characters that, one of them is a Salvation Army officer, who has had a maybe more of an upper-class upbringing, and her voice needed to reflect that and her message was heavenly. So, she has a more, all of the music that’s written for her—a little higher up, a little more head voice. Versus the Scarlett barmaid character who's going to wail, she's going to keep it low and brash. And that's what's fun about having something written for you, and jumping between those characters.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, that's very neat. And of course, as a married couple, how would you sort of describe that dynamic on stage? Because it is just the two of you and, you know, you're playing off each other the whole time.
Kyle Higgins
There's never been someone who I’ve been more comfortable with acting on stage. I think we’re very good at reading each other, just kind of like silent cues. And there's a natural chemistry, I think, that immediately was apparent. And we get to practise at home, too, which helped.
Kristin Ostensen
That's true. [laughs] You can always run lines, like, 24/7. And Kathryn, you mentioned that you do play three parts in Skeleton Army. You play a barmaid, a Salvation Army officer, and then Charles Jeffries’ wife—three very different characters. Do you have a favourite? Which one do you enjoy playing the most? And why?
Kathryn Higgins
Oh, boy. Well, my favourite is Scarlett, the barmaid, because she's fun and sassy and maybe the most like me. Would you say, Kyle? Yeah, I think well, maybe that's what I want to think. I think I'm fun and sassy. But yeah, I think I like playing her specifically because she has this—well, there's a few reasons. Number one, her accent is a real East Londoner accent, where I grew up, so it feels like home to speak in her voice. It almost feels like my voice had my life trajectory kept me in London. But it did not—here I am, very far away. But her journey as a character is so interesting because she is rough around the edges, and very protective of her heart, doesn't let people in. And as the show progresses, because the audience has watched her crack jokes and watched her be kind of rough and tumble with the guys at the bar, and you know, “nothing can bother me”—and watching her go from that to someone who has something to say, who has heart, who has a soul, and who is learning that there is light in the world, ‘cause her world is so dark—that arc is so fun to play. And it's impossible not to be connected because she's just so raw. I'll comment one more thing about her, is that—and this is what I love about theatre in general—is when you can make people laugh. You tear down their guard, which opens up the gate to feeling sensitive. I don't think that Scarlett would have the impact on the audience that she does if she wasn't so funny and quirky at the beginning, because everybody's already gotten so comfortable with her. Yeah, there's something special about how close laughter and sensitivity is to each other, like within our own hearts—that once you're laughing at something you can even start to cry, almost. You know, we've all done it. We've laughed so hard we cried. It's just a close, those are close emotions.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, no, I think you're really right. And funny characters are often very endearing, too, right. It builds almost like a feeling of friendship with this fictional character.
Kathryn Higgins
Yeah, exactly.
Kristin Ostensen
So, Kyle, how about you? What is your favourite scene or moment in Skeleton Army?
Kyle Higgins
There's this scene called, that we call the lamppost scene. And it's near the middle of the play. And Charlie and Scarlett kind of have a conflict where Scarlett finally reveals how she's actually feeling and Charlie's kind of blown away by it. The words, just how they were written by John Copeland, really flow nicely and they're great. It's a great scene. So, that's probably my favourite one to do as an actor. I like the bar scene at the start, too, because I get to hand, well, beer chalices to the audience members and get them to drink—it’s ginger ale, but that's a lot of fun. Yeah, we're, like, forcing the audience members to down an entire pitcher of ginger ale. It’s always big energy and good fun.
Kristin Ostensen
Nice. So, warning to everyone in attendance: you may be conscripted to take part in the play. [laughs]
Kyle Higgins
Yeah. And get a little sticky, too.
Kristin Ostensen
OK, there's a splash zone. There's a splash zone.
Kyle Higgins
Yeah, definitely.
Kathryn Higgins
[Laughs] There's absolutely a splash zone, yeah.
Kristin Ostensen
What about you, Kathryn? Do you have a favourite scene or a moment in the play?
Kathryn Higgins
Yeah, I was gonna say when you asked the question, my favourite scene was also the lamppost scene, which I hope people even recognize that it is a lamppost that we're standing beside. One of the coatracks—we have a really minimal set and it all transforms into different locations. So, we have these two coatracks that are the doorway of the bar, and then they become the coatrack, go figure. And we put it up on a box and the top of the coatrack turns on, a light bulb. And now we're at a lamppost and it's nighttime with just this little suggestive light bulb that's been masked throughout the show. So, that's why we call it the lamppost scene, just between us, but I don't think it's written in the script at all. Yeah, that scene is so exciting because I think it's the first time that we get more physical towards each other. Right, Kyle? Like, it's, I wouldn't call it—well, it is stage combat. But it's not a fight. It's a verbal fight that could get physical, but the audience isn't sure if it's going to go too far or not. And having one foot on either side of that line is exciting. Like, are we going to blow off? Is this going to go south, or are we going to keep it together here? That's fun to play as an actor. I also have a favourite moment where Scarlett the barmaid really speaks her heart at the, we call it the watch night service. It's this great big long monologue. Oh, I'm just recalling that it's not just that. That whole watch night scene at the end, I go from the captain, to Scarlett, back to captain. And it's like three or four pages of straight monologue. And Kyle gets to, you get to go take a sip of water [laughs] while I'm going back and forth, talking to different characters who are essentially talking to each other. And that's a really fun section of the script where it looks like two characters, but it is just me. But even in my own mind, I'm thinking it's two characters. I'm seeing Scarlett when I'm captain; I'm seeing captain when I'm Scarlett. Maybe that's a problem psychologically, that I'm seeing people, but it feels real.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah. Oh, that sounds really neat, and also kind of intense. And Skeleton Army is an 80-minute one-act play. No breaks in there, really. Does it feel like a marathon or a sprint? How do you sort of keep your energy and focus going when you don't really get much of a break?
Kathryn Higgins
How do you do it? Kyle?
Kyle Higgins
Yeah, I get lost in the character. And it's so much fun to be up there that I don't really even consider my energy. I'm always more energetic at the end of the show than I am at the start, I find, just because the emotions kind of accelerate my excitement, I guess.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
Kyle Higgins
But I've got it a little bit easier than Kathryn because, as she was saying, there's a whole chunk right near the middle of the play where Kathryn is playing all three characters, essentially, and I just get to go in the back of the stage and have a nice long drink of water. [laughs] Like the guys in the marathon who get on the taxi and meet them at the finish line.
Kathryn Higgins
Yeah, that's true, Kyle, about feeling really energetic throughout. And I would say while I'm on stage—and I think you probably feel this, too—when we're on stage, you're so engrossed in the character, you're so engaged in connecting with each other and connecting with the audience because the show is so interactive, the audience becomes the Skeleton Army, they become the patrons at the bar, they become the congregation at the church service. So, it's just go go go. And then if you ever get a chance to step off and have a sip of water, that's when the exhaustion hits—like, when I'm not in the zone, and suddenly I step out of it and I'm just myself for five seconds going, like, Oh, I'm tired. But then you jump right back in and you forget, because I don't think you'd make it through if you thought about it the whole time. You're invested.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, for sure. I think that's really neat—this sort of losing yourself in the character. And the involvement of the audience—that's going to be so cool, too. How are you feeling about bringing the play to Canada? I mean, especially considering there is such a strong Canadian connection with various Canadian folks involved. What sort of excites you the most about bringing it to Canada and to the conference this year?
Kyle Higgins
A lot of my family hasn't actually seen the show yet. I'm thrilled to be able to bring it to them and actually get them to see it because it's this thing that we've been talking about—oh yeah, we're doing Skeleton Army. We're performing Skeleton Army for years. And my parents haven’t seen it. My grandma hasn't seen it. My brother hasn't seen it. So, I'm really excited to bring it to them.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, absolutely. And how about you, Kathryn?
Kathryn Higgins
Yeah, it'll feel like a homecoming. Like Kyle said, just being able to show our friends and family what has been such an integral part of our lives the last few years. Yeah, I'm really excited to bring it to Canada.
Kristin Ostensen
For sure. And so, what's sort of the bottom line? Why should people come see this play? I'm convinced—it sounds amazing. What is your elevator pitch? Why does everybody need to come see Skeleton Army at the conference this year?
Kyle Higgins
Great music, historical—so you're learning about The Salvation Army. And it's an inspiring story of transformation.
Kathryn Higgins
My elevator pitch is, if you are struggling to believe that God can redeem the garbage in your life, then this show is for you.
Kristin Ostensen
It certainly sounds like it has a very powerful message. And as I said, I am really looking forward to seeing it myself, and I hope everybody else comes along as well. So, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been great to chat with you and hear about the play. And we'll see you here in Toronto in just a few months.
Kathryn Higgins
Yes, thank you so much for having us.
Kyle Higgins
Thank you.
Kristin Ostensen
Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. For more episodes, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast. And to register for the INSPIRE Conference and Congress, visit Salvationist.ca/Inspire.