Italy and Greece are known for being popular tourist destinations. But did you know that The Salvation Army has been ministering in Italy since 1887? Greece is a more recent addition to the Army world, with work commencing in 2007.
Today, the Italy and Greece Territory is headed up by Lt-Colonels Andrew and Darlene Morgan, Canadian officers who are no strangers to international service. In fact, they have spent more of their officership serving outside Canada than in their home country.
In this episode of the podcast, they give us a non-tourist look at these countries—the pressing social issues they face and how the Army is responding. They also talk about the Army’s long-standing relationship with the Catholic Church, and how God is at work and changing lives in this territory.
Italy and Greece are known for being popular tourist destinations. But did you know that The Salvation Army has been ministering in Italy since 1887? Greece is a more recent addition to the Army world, with work commencing in 2007.
Today, the Italy and Greece Territory is headed up by Lt-Colonels Andrew and Darlene Morgan, Canadian officers who are no strangers to international service. In fact, they have spent more of their officership serving outside Canada than in their home country.
In this episode of the podcast, they give us a non-tourist look at these countries—the pressing social issues they face and how the Army is responding. They also talk about the Army’s long-standing relationship with the Catholic Church, and how God is at work and changing lives in this territory.
Kristin Ostensen
This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. When you think of Italy and Greece, probably the first thing that comes to mind is the history. Incredible monuments such as the Colosseum and the Parthenon. And, if you’re something of a foodie, you’re probably thinking about the food, too. You might not know that The Salvation Army has been ministering in Italy since 1887. Greece is a more recent addition to the Army world, with work commencing in 2007. Today, the Italy and Greece Territory is headed up by Lt-Colonels Andrew and Darlene Morgan, Canadian officers who are no strangers to international service. On this episode of the podcast, they give us a non-tourist look at these countries—the pressing social issues they face and how the Army is responding. They also talk about the Army’s long-standing relationship with the Catholic Church, and how God is at work and changing lives in this territory.
Hi, Andrew. Hi, Darlene. Thank you for coming on the Salvationist podcast today.
Darlene Morgan
Thank you for having us.
Andrew Morgan
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Kristin Ostensen
So, to start us off today, can you tell me about your journey to international service? Did you always want to serve internationally? And how did you end up in these appointments?
Darlene Morgan
So, way back in 1991, I was working as a dental hygienist for a dentist who is a Salvationist. And I was cleaning the teeth of a young woman who was coming back from serving with a missions agency in Africa. And she was on her way to training college with her husband. And while I was listening to her story, really, it was as if a light went off, and God said to me very clearly: you can serve me outside of Canada. And that was it. Not a place or anything like that. But it was very clear to me. And so, I went home and told that much to Andrew. And then God spoke to him in a different way.
Andrew Morgan
Yeah, very clearly. Within days, a very clear message came through a piece of music from the musical Salvationist. And the words very clear: “Here am I, my Lord; send me.” How do you respond to that? And so Darlene and I talked about it, prayed about it. I made contact with territorial headquarters, the “overseas personnel officer” it was titled then. And you know it's a God thing, as Darlene said, when six months later, we were in Budapest, Hungary. So, opening of post-communist Eastern Europe. And yeah, that's where we started.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, wow, that is so cool. So obviously, this isn't your first international appointment. Have you had any other appointments between that one and your current one?
Darlene Morgan
Yes, we often say we've been like a ping-pong ball between, popping back and forth between Hungary and Canada—Toronto and Budapest, in particular. So that first appointment, I guess, or when we were serving as lay people, was in Budapest, Hungary, as Salvationists helping with all the re-pioneering work at the time. Then we did come back to Canada, to Toronto for training college. And our first appointment was appointed back to Hungary as corps officers. Like all lieutenants, in your first corps appointment, you are out to save the world. And it was just special to be in Hungary again. And then we were back in Canada for another corps appointment in downtown Toronto at the Harbour Light. And then we were asked to go back—that would be the third time, yes—in 2009, as the regional leaders for Hungary.
Kristin Ostensen
Very cool. And then how long have you now been in this current appointment? And how did you end up there?
Andrew Morgan
Yeah, well, we've spent more years serving internationally then we have serving in Canada now.
Kristin Ostensen
Wow.
Andrew Morgan
It was in 2022. Yes, in the spring, we were asked if we would allow our names to stand again for an international appointment. And we thought about it and prayed about it and then couldn't see any reason why we shouldn't. And so yeah, we said, we're available.
Darlene Morgan
We’ve been in this appointment since September 1 of 2022.
Kristin Ostensen
So about a year and a half now. And what were your first impressions upon moving there, moving to Rome, taking up this appointment? How’s the adjustment process been?
Darlene Morgan
Anywhere we go for a walk it's just, as you say, it's beautiful and interesting. There's culture, there's history, history, history, of course. So it's fascinating, really fascinating.
Andrew Morgan
We are in Italy, and the language here in Italy is Italian. So, a challenge for us is to learn another language. We're able to function with the great team we have at territorial headquarters. We’re able to function in English as needs be, but to speak to our people, to speak to our officers and speak to our soldiery and speak to people on the street—yeah, language is a challenge. So we're learning. We're getting along.
Darlene Morgan
I had my second meeting of just a planning meeting for a women's retreat yesterday—I conducted that in Italian.
Kristin Ostensen
Amazing!
Darlene Morgan
You know, I realized, Hey, I'm coming along. But our officers and soldiers, they're very patient and very gracious with us.
Kristin Ostensen
That’s wonderful.
Andrew Morgan
Yes.
Darlene Morgan
Exactly.
Kristin Ostensen
And how would you describe The Salvation Army in Italy?
Darlene Morgan
Very early on, we were really struck with the sense of passion in our officers there. The Salvation Army in Italy is small—small, but extremely loyal. Our officers are passionate about evangelism. They really, there's really a sense that evangelical Christians have something different to offer, something important to offer. So, the reality of relationship with Jesus is so important—that's the most important message to give to people. And as you can imagine, in a country that is predominantly Roman Catholic, that's the opportunity and challenge all in one. So, that's my impression of The Salvation Army in Italy.
Andrew Morgan
The Salvation Army in Italy and Greece, as a territory, has just actually become a territory—had been a command. The changes to territorial status require changes in our governance and our business practices. And so, I would say that this is perhaps one of the largest challenges in leadership today, is bringing about a change in governance structure and practice. And yeah, I'm enjoying that challenge. It's not unfamiliar to me. And we've got some people who are keen also to see The Salvation Army grow in other areas, and this is one of the areas we need to grow if we're truly going to be impactful today.
Kristin Ostensen
And as you mentioned, of course, your territory encompasses both Italy and Greece. So, can you talk a little bit about The Salvation Army in Greece and what the work is like there?
Andrew Morgan
Yeah, certainly. We we've just completed 16 years of ministry in Greece, meaning The Salvation Army has only been 16 years. We recognize that Greece is very much an Orthodox country. And so, the work of The Salvation Army there amongst Orthodox Christianity has its limitations and challenges. And The Salvation Army is presently in two cities in Greece: in Athens and in Thessaloniki. We have a corps in both of those cities. And in both of those cities we have a corps officer couple who are Greek nationals. And that's a tremendous forward step. And we’re very, very, very happy with that. Greece is something of a transit country, in regards to human trafficking. Individuals being trafficked out of parts of Africa, Albania, come through Greece, and then often on into Italy. And so, it's unique that we are as a single territory, Italy and Greece. I want to highlight and recognize the good work The Salvation Army does in the area of human trafficking. We have a human trafficking response program in Athens that is now being recognized by the Greek state. They're really keen to understand what we're doing and recognize what The Salvation Army is doing for some best practices. So, I would say we have a very good future as we continue to do what we have been doing and do it well in the area of human trafficking.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, that's one area I'm somewhat familiar with, because of course, we had Canadian officers over there a few years back, yeah. So that's wonderful work to hear about, that it continues. So, can you tell me a little bit about your appointments themselves? What does your day to day look like as territorial leaders?
Darlene Morgan
Well, we are a small territory, and like many small territories and territorial headquarters, many of us have many roles and wear several hats, and not just in headquarters, but our officers as well, fulfilling several roles. So, I'm territorial president of women's ministries without a territorial secretary for women's ministries, so I'm one person replacing two. So, relying on the wisdom and co-operation and assistance of teams gathering together our officers to help with women's ministries. Almost a year after being here, I was given the additional responsibility of the spiritual life development secretary for the territory. And another hat, or another role, not an official role, but one that has been kind of assigned to me from our leadership team, relating to officer training and development. Andrew and I have had seven years in officer training in Canada, and I was involved for four years in officer training in Hungary as well. So, though we do not have cadets at present, we are in the process of revisioning or reimagining our training, training model, so that when we do—God willing, we believe—when we do have more cadets, we will be using a different training model than has been used in the past two sessions of cadets. So, there's never a dull moment. That's just the reality.
Kristin Ostensen
And how about you, Andrew, in your capacity as a territorial commander, what does your role look like? What's kind of your day to day?
Andrew Morgan
Well, I'm truly blessed by having an excellent chief secretary, a wonderful woman. She's Italian national, but served 28 years in Switzerland, and so comes also with benefit of international service and an international viewpoint. My day-to-day responsibilities: assisting the territory in defining mission strategy, and ensuring The Salvation Army's place in society. A lot of practical things that I've been addressing are helping us to ensure our profile in Italian society is recognized and known, whether that be through business or government or ecumenical relations—trying to assist in ensuring that we are nationally viable and recognized. As I said earlier, one of the changes from command to territory is to ensure that we have good governance in place, and I've been heading the team that's bringing together our governance charter and implementing that in this year, 2024.
Kristin Ostensen
And what would you say are some of the most pressing social issues in Italy and Greece? How is the Army responding on that front?
Andrew Morgan
Yeah. We said in the fall of our first year, we would try to visit every corps and ministry unit before Christmas, I think. It was a crazy objective, but we accomplished it.
Kristin Ostensen
Wow. How many ministry units and cities is that?
Andrew Morgan
17. So it was a big undertaking, but it was very helpful to do that in the first few months. So, some of our observations from those weeks in touring across the territory was to realize that three particular matters could be articulated, three matters in which there is need within society and three areas that The Salvation Army seems to be equipped in responding to. And those are matters of food, family, and faith. Food: we have food banks, we have feeding programs. There are people who are hungry, there are working poor, not unlike realities in our home country of Canada. So, food is a priority. We also think of food as being so fundamental to Italian culture, gathering around big family table meals, enjoying food. Those who don't have family—and that's the second “F”—those who don't have family, to have an opportunity to be included in a family, a family of believers, Salvation Army corps fellowship. And often the fellowship of family happens with food. So, food and family are two very, very strong cultural markers—markers within The Salvation Army and markers in which The Salvation Army has as an ability and a place to respond. And of course, we do all this because of the faith we have in Jesus Christ, and to make our faith an active faith, not just a faith of a Sunday ritual observance, but a faith that is alive, and is alive and active in family and fellowship with food. It makes it just a tremendous opportunity for engagement in ministry. So, the pressing social needs? Those who are without family, The Salvation Army can be family. Those who are not enjoying the food that we would want them to enjoy, well, we can provide and meet needs. And so, food, family, and faith are some of the areas and avenues that The Salvation Army is working on and working with here today. I would say some of the other, perhaps, the real issues we don't want to skirt or to turn a blind eye to—corruption is a reality in many different areas. And, you know, I'm not necessarily saying mafias around every corner, but some of the whole historic ways, traditional ways of working around the system to avoid, you know, some engagement with government or tax or something of that nature. And I say, no, no, we have to work above board in all things; we have to do things correctly. Part of our governance model is to ensure that we are doing things correctly. And some might complain and say, Well, you know, you're going to have to pay tax if you do that. It’s yes, we’re The Salvation Army—we’ll pay tax. So, just simple little things that perhaps in Canada we wouldn't even think of. Here, it's part of our business and ministry discussion to ensure that we are doing things correctly and being good corporate citizens here with within the countries.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, that's fascinating, something we don't think about here or perhaps take for granted. You mentioned food banks. What would you say is kind of the reach of The Salvation Army's social ministry in Italy?
Andrew Morgan
Well, in Italy, our social ministries are being addressed at a corps level. I would say society—and if we think from a public relations perspective—we're most well known for our large social services centre here in Rome. We have altogether 285 beds, residential programming in various capacities, various models of response. We have a kitchen here providing meals every day, we have social workers on staff. So, from a social perspective, yes, it really would be our Rome centre. We have some other smaller residential programming, I think in Florence, not too far from Rome, we have a small nine-bed facility there. We have some other properties that could be developed, which were responding to a migrant crisis south in the country. Presently, we haven't a funded program, but we have a facility that we're looking to repurpose and address need in that part of the country. I would also say, from a social work perspective, or meeting needs of society, in Athens, The Salvation Army's response to human trafficking in what we call the Green Light Project, or the Green Light Program—if you think of the red light district, we're offering a green light opportunity for those who are looking for assistance and help and a way out. And it's exciting there. We have a very unique partnership. We're recognized for our good efforts, our quality efforts, our solid place in that part of Athens, such that we have a partnership with a medical team, doctor and nurses who recognize that individuals in the geographic boundaries that we're operating in, in the red light district, there are individuals who would not go to hospital. It’s difficult to recognize, perhaps from our perspective, Canadian perspective, that some individuals will not be welcomed at hospital and would be discriminated against. And so, we have a team of doctors and nurses who go and do triage and medical care on the street with us. And that partnership solidifies, further solidifies our place in social service in Athens. So, the level of trust extended to The Salvation Army and our ability to respond, including triage emergency care on the street, is significant. So, some interesting responses to social service and care that The Salvation Army is providing in this territory.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, that's amazing, especially for smaller territory. Now, when you think about your time being there, and that tour that you did, going to all of your ministry units, what stands out to you in terms of where you've seen God at work in your territory? Are there any examples that really come to mind for you?
Darlene Morgan
In relation to the tour, the tours shall we say, visiting each corps and each centre—again, I would say, for me, it was or is still the way that officers are committed to presenting the gospel. I mean, that is the obvious, but it really stands out. They are engaged in one-on-one ministry, whether that's in the market place—literally, in a market in the community. Or just the one-on-one relationship building, people coming to the Re-Shop, or the thrift store. That one-on-one relationship building is foundational. And it's perhaps a slow work. But it's the building block of the corps. That's where I see God at work around the territory. Or here at headquarters, or I guess in our work in general, I see God at work really guiding us to serve with excellence, and, as Andrew has said, to serve with correctness, so whether that's with the assistance of lawyers, with the assistance of the community and government and municipalities. That's where we have really seen God at work, opening doors for us, closing doors that needed to have been closed. That's where I see God really at work.
Andrew Morgan
I would add that we established, right at the very beginning, here are some pillars or some very strong practices that we bring into our appointments. And I think of the themes of honesty, integrity, transparency, and accountability. And we stated these as pillars under which we would operate. And to see people responding to this—we took our first officers councils and introduced the theme of these four pillars of honesty, integrity, transparency and accountability, and declared that we would only operate in this way. There were some who responded to this, “Well praise the Lord! This is what we need.” And it's played out in numerous ways, as Darlene said, you know, engaging in matters with lawyers’ assistants, or attending to issues in relation to contractual agreements with municipalities for funding and things of that nature, when we've approached and said, No, actually, because of our stance on honesty, we can only operate in this way, or because of our desire for full transparency, you need to know or we need to know, and then the integrity to say that, We cannot accept those terms because we cannot abide by them. And so, this invitation to be held accountable, it's been well received, for the most part, and I think it's helping bring a change of culture within our ministry and within the opportunities here.
Kristin Ostensen
Mm. That's good. As you've alluded to, mentioned, when people think of church and Italy, they would typically think of the Roman Catholic Church. And similarly in Greece, people would think of the Orthodox Church. So, I'm curious, what is it like being The Salvation Army in that sort of context? And can you talk about some of the ecumenical opportunities you've had during your appointment?
Andrew Morgan
Sure. So, in addition to being the territorial commander, I'm also the General’s representative to the Vatican. Now, that sounds grandiose. In our denomination, The Salvation Army, yes, we have an official representation at the Vatican, and I facilitate that. There are other global denominations who would have a representative, a secretary, you know, at a secretary of state level, and for me it’s just an extra hat. But the opportunities that that provides are absolutely tremendous. So, from an ecumenical perspective, I stand as a peer with other global denominations, Christian churches, and have the opportunity to represent The Salvation Army and also to be a voice. We have ongoing dialogue with—The Salvation Army, internationally, has an ongoing dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. And we hold a four- or five-day set of talks annually, thematically discussing matters of theology and Christian faith and practice. So, it's quite, quite fascinating from that perspective.
Kristin Ostensen
Very cool.
Andrew Morgan
Yes! And then to have the community engagement with other ecumenical partners here in Rome. So, to think that the seat of the Roman Catholic Church being Rome, is recognized for its Christian history, and many other denominations would have a significant presence here—if not just for the relationship with the Vatican, but with other denominations as well. So, from an ecumenical perspective, it's quite, quite unique. The challenges of being a Protestant denomination in a predominantly Roman Catholic country are very real. We visited a former officer commanding a year ago, she was 99 years old, and she was imprisoned when she was 16 because of her faith. And so, there are very real stories of persecution of Protestants from decades ago. Fortunately, it's not as—well, it's still difficult today, but it's difficult in a different way. But there are many people who carry wounds and hurts because of the Protestant faith that they professed. And so that's very real. In Greece today, we do have some limitations in our ability to be present, to preach the gospel publicly. It's not an easy place in ministry. So, there are opportunities, and we find helpful the ecumenical partnerships we have in Greece as well. And so, the ability to partner with other Christians is something we are experiencing and enjoying and it's part of our day-to-day ministry here in Italy and Greece.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, absolutely. So, looking back on your appointment so far, what have been some of the highlights up to this point?
Andrew Morgan
Well, I just touched on being involved with the Vatican. So, both Darlene and I have had opportunity on a number of occasions to meet the Pope. That doesn't happen every day as a Salvation Army officer! But it’s part of our ministry opportunities and privileges here.
Darlene Morgan
I think for me, a highlight is just being part of The Salvation Army in Italy. What do I mean by that? Sometimes I have a moment of, Wow, I'm here, I'm with Italian Salvationists. I'm taking part in their life and in their faith community. For example, visiting a corps and after the service, they might have an “agape” meal, they call it—a potluck—and that can go on for three or four hours.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh wow!
Darlene Morgan
Yeah!
Andrew Morgan
It’s about the food.
Darlene Morgan
Yeah, the food and the culture. But just to be present, and to just understand—or maybe not understand, but be part of the culture and be part of the Italian Salvationist culture is really quite a privilege, I think. At the Rome corps—Rome is very multinational, and at the Rome corps, I find it just beautiful. It's a foretaste of heaven, I think. Prayer time—in all the corps we visited, really—prayer time, open prayer time is so well participated in. And at the Rome corps, prayers in Italian, Spanish, French, English, sometimes Portuguese. So, it's really beautiful.
Kristin Ostensen
That's so lovely. And how is God moving in your own lives as you minister in this territory?
Darlene Morgan
I think from day one, it's been a complete sense of our limitations and feeling ill equipped and not enough, and a total dependence on God—constant dependence on him, completely. He has to do the work because there's too much work and it seems so complex. He just has to help us navigate and lead the way. So, I think, yeah, how is God working in my life? Reminding me day by day that I have to rely completely and utterly on him, absolutely.
Andrew Morgan
Having declared publicly that we as The Salvation Army would strive to live under the pillars of honesty, integrity, transparency, and accountability, I am dependent upon God's equipping me, so that I can live out those values as an example before those whom I am called the lead. So, I'm very appreciative of God's strengthening through the work of his Holy Spirit, to ensure that I can be a man who is honest, who leads with integrity, and leads transparently and invites accountability. And I believe that God is blessing our efforts, and we thank him for it and give him the glory.
Kristin Ostensen
Wonderful. Well, that is a fantastic place to end. And I just want to thank you both so much for your time today. It's really fascinating to hear what God is doing in Italy and Greece. You know, I think so many of us think of them more from a tourist context, perhaps. But there's such amazing opportunities for spiritual ministry and growth, and I just pray God blesses you in all the ministry you're doing.
Andrew Morgan
Thank you so much.
Darlene Morgan
Thank you for this opportunity.
Kristin Ostensen
Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. For more episodes, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.