Gen Z and Jesus, with Major April and Rebekah McNeilly

About 50 percent of Gen Z in North America identify as "nones," meaning they don’t have any religious affiliation. The big question is: why? Why have so many left the church? And for those who haven’t, why have they stayed? 

This episode features a roundtable discussion with Major April McNeilly, who has been researching Gen Z and Jesus for her master’s degree; and her daughter Rebekah McNeilly, a Gen Z Salvationist who works in the corps mission department at territorial headquarters and hosts The Story We Tell Ourselves podcast.

In this candid and thought-provoking conversation, we get into the trends and data, the personal lived experiences of Gen Zs, and the heart of the gospel message that is still transforming young people today.

Read the first article in Major April's series on Generation Z and Jesus.

Transcript

Kristin Ostensen

This is the Salvationist podcast. I'm Kristin Ostensen. About 50 percent of Gen Z in North America—that’s people who are currently in their teens and 20s—now identify as nones, meaning they don’t have any religious affiliation. While religious participation has been declining for some time, that still represents a massive change, even from just the slightly older millennials who still remember the ordinariness of church attendance and the heyday of DC Talk. So, the big question is: why? Why have so many left? And for those who haven’t, why have they stayed? 

To dive into this important topic, we have a roundtable discussion on this episode, thanks to Major April McNeilly, who has been researching Gen Z and Jesus for her master’s degree. And her daughter Rebekah McNeilly, a Gen Z Salvationist who works in the corps mission department at territorial headquarters and hosts The Story We Tell Ourselves podcast.

Stay tuned for a wide-ranging and thought-provoking conversation as we get into the trends and data, as well as the personal lived experiences of Gen Z—and the heart of the gospel message that is still transforming young people today.

April McNeilly

Hi everyone. I'm April, and I am Gen X, and I'm the proud mama of four Gen Z daughters.

Rebekah McNeilly

And I am Rebekah, and I happen to be one of those daughters. So yes, I am part of Gen Z.

Kristin Ostensen 

And I'm Kristin and I am a millennial. And this kind of sounds like the setup for a bad joke, like a Gen Xer and a millennial and a Gen Z walk into … a Salvation Army church, I guess. [laughs] So we're here today to talk about Gen Zed, or Gen Zee, and specifically the spirituality of this unique generational group. So, one statistic that a lot of people might be familiar with is that about half of Gen Zs are nones with no religious affiliation. That's in the States, and the numbers are pretty similar in Canada as well. And in terms of the Gen Z nones, would you say most of them are growing up non-religious, in that they're sort of unchurched, or are they more leaving the church, based on what you've seen? 

April McNeilly

So, what I'm reading is it's both. In fact, some people say there's a bit of a, kind of a double whammy happening right now in post-Christendom Canada, post-Christendom North America. And that is, we've got a whole lot of Gen Zs that have grown up in absolutely non-religious households. That's increasing, right? A lot of Gen Xers like myself, parents of Gen Zs, are disillusioned, have walked away from the church. So, there's a whole lot of Gen Zs who call themselves nones because they have no clue about anything religious. At the same time, studies that are showing that a lot of Gen Z kids raised in the church are either deconstructing or they're bored, or they're just walking away from their faith. So both—both those no religion, and those in the church are now identifying as nones. 

Kristin Ostensen

So let's get into that. What are some of the key trends that you're seeing in terms of the “leavers”?

April McNeilly  

So one of the things that I'm reading about, and anecdotally, I can also confirm, in connecting with a lot of Gen Zs, is, first of all, Gen Zs are what I like to say, they're just really allergic to fakeness. It can't stand it. It's like they live and they breathe and they swim in the context of authenticity and transparency. And so I think often Gen Zs are like, yeah, the church is arrogant, out of touch, and frankly, just boring to many Gen Zs. And so they're not inclined to stay. They're not—it's not speaking into their need for that openness, that honesty, that sense of community. The other thing, of course, with Gen Zs, is they're hugely influenced by the media, and this plays into that first part, the problem with lacking authenticity, because the media will often report on the problems within the church, the moral failings, the scandals and all that. So Gen Zs, because they're, you know, seeing news all the time in their smartphones, they're also now getting inundated with the failings of the church. So it kind of plays into this idea of, it's not where I want to be in all my kind of, my realness, my openness.

Rebekah McNeilly 

I can add to that a little bit too, because that's a lot of what I was thinking. This issue of, Gen Zs are just not interested in anything that is not genuine or honest or to the point. And I think with that comes a bit of an aversion to a neatly packaged, sanitized Christianity as well. And so, and then I would marry that knowledge that we have from a Christian context, and I can kind of speak to also the secular context that Gen Z's exist in. Because, of course, we're not in silos, in religious silos—we are also, they're young university students. They're young in the workforce now. And so, I teach undergrads. I teach a couple courses every year. I'm usually sociology, criminology courses, and what I see among my students—so these are 19 to 23 year olds, firmly right in that Gen Z age bracket—is that they're growing up in a moment where any claim to truth seems highly suspicious. And so—and I see this in my students, where they have a lot of hesitation to make any kind of claim that something is true, especially if it offends the lived experience of any other student in the room, which is pretty much inevitably always going to be somebody. And so, then that relegates truth to the subjective, personal, highly individual sphere. And that is a problem for Christians, because we believe that, you know, Christ is real and that he physically rose from the dead, and we hold some basic theological tenets around salvation and sin and a need for forgiveness that we believe are true and not up to subjective interpretation. So then I wonder if—bringing that back to what my mom said and various research that's come out—if whether Gen Zs are also saying, “Give me something true, be genuine about it, but also don't apologize for it.” 

April McNeilly  

Yeah, that's so important. 

Rebekah McNeilly 

“I don't want to feel”—I think what I saw in my students is they feel precarious in believing that there's anything that's really true. So I wonder if part of what Gen Zs are asking for, and I can kind of resonate with this myself, is: I want to feel confident in the teaching that the church is giving me. I don't want to feel bullied into it. I want to sense a quiet confidence that is rooted in the fact that you really believe that the gospel is true, and you would boldly, if gently, make that claim to anyone.

Kristin Ostensen

Hmm, that's very interesting. In terms of millennials and Gen Xers—a lot of my generation has gone through a faith deconstruction process. You know, I think of the ex-vangelical movement and, you know, April, you alluded to this as well—people responding to scandals in the church, which does get into this sort of authenticity issue, or some political issues like Christian nationalism. So I'm wondering if either of you can speak to some of these bigger trends in the broader generations, and some of these things that have had an impact on the wider culture.

April McNeilly

Gen Zs really are not afraid of the big questions. They're not nervous about it. They're like, Bring it on. You know, let's talk about this. They're pragmatic, they're intentional. There's nothing kind of wishy-washy about them. They want to engage. What we, as Gen X, as Boomer leaders in the church, older millennials, we have been—you're right, Kristin—and we've been nervous about some of these cultural issues that are impacting our faith. And because we've been nervous, we've been, I think, we feel inadequate, not well prepared to talk about it. That's problematic, because Gen Zs want to talk. So what's happening is they're coming—and I'm referring now to Gen Z followers of Jesus, OK? Because I spend more of my time actually researching Gen Z young Christians, right? So, Gen Z young Christians are, they're really struggling with the fact that in many of their church spaces, in any denomination, frankly, these big questions that are impacting their faith—we're just nervous around them, and we do this weird kind of delicate dance instead of actually, OK, can we talk about this? Do we still believe in hell? Right? Is Jesus, does he really say he's the only way to God? What about my sexuality? So, we're nervous as older Christians, but we've gotta figure this one out, because Gen Zs, they want to talk about it. 

Rebekah McNeilly  

I think there are so many glaring examples of, like, these terrible things that have happened within the church, and then examples—and, I mean, I don't want to pick on any one example, but I think that the kind of American conservatism married to Christianity is probably one of the more obvious examples we can see, at least in popular cultural depictions and on social media. And then, given that most Gen Zs are extremely online, and are being, you know, subject to very different messages, compelling messages, and often extreme messages—I think one of the biggest problems is, when you grow up in a bit of an intellectual or theological echo chamber, and then you get exposed to the world, and the world is like, “What you believe is broken, and actually it's harmful, and actually it's hateful”—even, “It's hateful to whatever people group I belong to”—it becomes really challenging, I think, for young people to disentangle the person of Jesus from the fallenness of the people they grew up in faith with, and I think that's maybe one of the biggest challenges. And so, when it comes to kind of offering a protective, like, a barrier, for young people—and you know, this is to the next generation as well, not just Gen Zs, but young people coming up after them as well—is what my mom said. I think a willingness to have open dialogue, but I would say also, maybe more importantly than that even, and it's hard. I don't want to speak for—I don't speak on behalf of all Gen Zs. But I think from my perspective, we really need to have a robust theology around the person of Jesus and what he accomplished. So that when people fall, and they, you know, there are abuse scandals, and when they become powerful politicians, and then they, you know, the waters of politics and Christianity are all muddled together—when that happens, I feel like one of the greatest protective mechanisms against that is a very strong sense of, Well, who was Jesus and what did he do when he walked the earth? And does that work with what I'm hearing from my church leaders and from—and I don't know if my generation—and again, as an older Gen Z, I don't know if we were always equipped with great—I was very fortunate. I grew up with two pastors for parents, and so I think that protected me, maybe better than some of my peers. And my parents, our house was always very willing to have hard conversations. But yeah, we need to be equipped with a theology of who Jesus is and how that fits into the cultural moment we exist in, in the challenging ways and in the hopeful, encouraging ways. 

April McNeilly

Yeah, that's really well said. And Gen Zs are, by nature, spiritually curious. That certainly is what the findings are showing. Even the nones, for the most part, believe there is some kind of God, right? So just because they're saying “I'm a none” doesn't mean that they're not spiritually curious, right? So, they are. They also know—Gen Zs—even more than millennials, that there's something really, really broken in the world—economically, ideologically, politically—there's something really, really wrong that's happening right now. So they're curious, they're open, but they're not finding the answers—or maybe what I need to say is, we in the church haven't quite figured out how to create the right spaces in the church where they can come and honestly, truly explore what do we believe. And again, I'm referring to young Gen Z Christians. “Why do we believe that? So, what about the other kind of brand of Christianity that does not believe that? Well, why don't they believe that?” You know, so we're nervous as the older Christians, and we need to get over that. Maybe we ourselves need to remember who Jesus is, right? Maybe my friends who are Gen X and Boomers—we need to be reacquainted with who Jesus is, so that we're not so nervous in talking about these big, big discussions.

Rebekah McNeilly

Yeah, and really quick before you move on—I had put in my notes, which I think goes with what you're saying, Mom, is that we need to not treat every line of question as a theological slippery slope. Like, this became very apparent to me over the last few years that, if asking questions mean we're going to throw our whole theology out, then we're basically just reducing ourselves to this kind of—I don't want to say fundamentalist—but like, very kind of narrow. So, not every question is a sure pathway to a slippery slope.

April McNeilly

Absolutely, and we can't be afraid. So that's one of the problems, I would say, with fundamentalism. I think there's a lot of fear there, right? But to understand that there are some questions and some answers that are just kind of above our pay grade, right? There's stuff that we're not going to figure out this side of eternity, and that's OK. In fact, I think Gen Zs would rather us say, “I don't really have a good answer to that question, but this is who Jesus is, and let's talk about what I believe Scripture says to that.”

Kristin Ostensen

Well, it seems what we're ultimately getting at is, what is the heart of the gospel, right? Jesus is the heart of the gospel. But what is that? And I think, you know, when the Army was founded back in the Victorian times, there was kind of a more “fire and brimstone” approach to sharing the gospel. And even in the 90s—you know, putting on my millennial hat here—there was still a really strong emphasis on hell, and we would joke about the old “turn or burn” sermons. And I'm wondering if some of these more classic or historical presentations of the gospel still resonate with the Gen Z today, and if not, what kind of message does resonate with them?

April McNeilly  

I think we have naturally thought that the harder part, the harder truths of Christianity, we really do need to shy away from. But actually, that's not what I'm finding in my reading or in talking with young Gen Z Christians. They are—if they're followers of Jesus—they are, as Rebekah mentioned earlier, they're all in. They're like, “You know what? I don't want any of this shallow faith. The bar needs to be high. If Jesus said, you know, ‘If you want to follow me, you gotta die to yourself, you gotta take up your cross and follow me,’ then I need to know what he meant by that.” So, I would say that the way we presented, you know, whether it's hell or whatever, you know, when the Army was founded, or in the 90s—the way we presented the gospel is not really effective today. But I would say that the gospel has not changed. So it needs to be translated, in a sense, I guess, using today's language. But I don't think Gen Z young Christians are shying away from the harder parts of what we believe as Bible-following Christians. What do you think, Rebekah? Does that make sense to you? 

Rebekah McNeilly  

Yeah, OK, I feel like my answer to this question is, like, kind of a hot take, so I don't know. But one of the things that we're still grappling with in today's cultural moment, that is maybe some remnants of the Romantics, is this sense that: I have to look inside myself to find what is true, and how I interpret what you're saying is what is most true. And I really want to believe, and I think I do believe, that the gospel will prevail as true even when it is poorly presented, which is maybe sort of part of what my mom was saying is—yeah, like maybe if the gospel is presented as fire and brimstone and, you know, hell and all this scary stuff, or maybe if it's overly sanitized and flowery and, you know, packaged too neatly—maybe in both of those instances, we should have a little more confidence that the gospel is true. And so if we present it, it will resonate because God is calling out to people. And so, I think that's kind of where I land on that. And maybe I say that as a bit of, like, a “take a deep breath” to all of those people who are in positions of leadership and who are church leaders and who are youth leaders and who are Gen Zs. You know, just expose yourself to the message of the gospel, to what Christ accomplished, to the historical evidence to support his life and his death and his resurrection, and to all the people who knew and loved him, and to the thousands of years of tradition we have, predating the Protestant Reformation, you know, back to the Catholic Church—all this. Expose yourself to that, and I think you will find it to resonate deeply. Yeah, that’s what I think.

April McNeilly  

You know, the question becomes, then, what gospel, right? Whose gospel? How do we define that gospel? And I think that's what we're talking about here. And I would agree with you, and Jesus said, “Look, all the gates of hell won't win, won't prevail against the church.” I mean, we trust Jesus. And, actually, contrary to popular opinion, Christianity is not dying. It's not going anywhere. Christianity is growing wonderfully. It's just not growing in North America, right? It's in decline here. But in the majority world, people are encountering Jesus in phenomenal ways. So yeah, there's no fear about the gospel itself. The confusion becomes how we are handling this incredible gospel, how comfortable we are in having difficult conversations about certain aspects of the gospel, because we tend to not want to talk about it. They're hot-button topics. So, for example, on one study I read recently, half of evangelical churchgoers no longer think that Jesus is the only way to God, right? So, there's this kind of syncretistic idea of, well, you know, you can find God in many, many different ways, in many religions. So that's actually increasingly an understanding within the church. So, what do we do with that? And I myself, I’m what would be considered an orthodox follower of Jesus. I firmly place myself in 2000 years of Christian tradition, which actually does admit to this exclusivity of Christ, or that, you know, Jesus meant what he said when he said, “I'm the Way, the Truth and the Life.” So, if we're not willing to have these kinds of conversations with Gen Zs, then what studies are showing is, those that are spiritually curious, they will get bored with a space that's afraid to talk. 

Kristin Ostensen  

But to me, it's interesting that there almost seems to be two competing facts, or—I don't know, maybe I'm not putting it properly. But you have, on the one hand, I'm hearing that, you know, Gen Z wants that kind of claim to exclusivity of belief and sort of an objective truth, but then the cultural trend, and even the trend in the church, is towards more of a, you know, non-absolute truth. Or, you know, “There are many ways….” 

April McNeilly  

“You do you.”

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah. So how do you square that circle? Like, those two things seem to be pushing totally opposite directions.

Rebekah McNeilly

It is complicated, because there are within the church a lot of—there's division in how we present many different aspects of our faith. And maybe that just goes back to the dialogue piece, which is, I mean—that's kind of why I love research and academia, because I do believe—maybe I'm idealistic—that the more research is done on a certain topic, the more likely it is that the truth will kind of float to the top eventually, assuming quality research is done a lot over time. But what is bad in academia is when we avoid doing research on certain topics because it's perceived to be wrong or inappropriate or whatever, and because then we can't really delve into truth because we can't even inquire. And so, I actually think that the scary, potentially offensive questions to both sides of whatever sides you exist on, are the exact questions that we should be asking in our church spaces. But it's got to be done, obviously, wisely as well—you've got to be really tactful and, you know, grace-laced in your communication style. And I think one of the things that—and we've already touched on this with Gen Zs—that we're really allergic to kind of a fake confidence. So if you're going to open up a space for conversation, I feel like we got to be really thoughtful about who facilitates that, because if it's someone who seems insecure in the truth that they're supposed to be discussing, and that manifests as arrogance or bullying or, you know, over-sharing—you know, the worst is a facilitator who talks too much—these things, I think, can really undermine any attempts to have good conversation.

April McNeilly

I think that Gen X parents—so that's my generation—I think we've really had a big impact on some of the reason why some Gen Z Christians are really struggling now. And this weighs on me because, I mean, I've made lots of mistakes parenting, to which Rebekah is not going to admit to any of them here on this podcast. But there's a lot of Gen Zs that are admitting that they went to church because their parents told them they had to, because it's what their parents always did, but their parents never actually talked about what difference Jesus makes. They didn't actually see any difference at home, so it was just something they always did. And I think my generation, we in particular, there's been this kind of slow falling away from who Jesus really is in my life. So, either we've walked away completely and raised our Gen Zs in no religious homes, or we've stayed connected to a church community because they're our friends and we like the things we do, but we haven't really been translating who Jesus is in that to our children and now our teens and our young adults, right?

Kristin Ostensen

Well, I know research shows that one of the biggest factors in terms of people keeping the faith as they get older is, in fact, staying connected to a religious community, and that, of course, does start with parents. But as you mentioned, a lot of us were forced to go to church, and that did have kind of a backfiring effect as we got older. People moved out and said, “OK, well, now that I don't have to go, I'm not anymore.” So, I think that really is a key question: How can parents foster that connection without the forcing that leads to a backlash?

April McNeilly

You know, and as the oldest person on the screen right here and now a grandmother—I love those two little granddaughters—and I'm no expert in grandparenting or parenting, so let me just say that right off the top, that's not what I'm pretending at all. But if there's one thing that I would say to young parents who are followers of Jesus and engage their children in, you know, in the faith—say the name of Jesus when they're babies. Talk about Jesus when they're toddlers. Talk to Jesus when they're eight and 10 years old, so that when they're 15, it's not weird to talk about who Jesus is, because that's the thing, right? If it's just a, “We just go to church because that's what we do. And you're going to go to church if you live under my roof,” and that's it—well, then the 17-year-old is going to be like, “Well, who really is Jesus?” Right? And that means then that, for us as parents and grandparents, oh my goodness, we really need to encounter Jesus if we're going to influence Gen Zs.

Kristin Ostensen

Well, we've taken a good amount of time to talk about some of the more discouraging trends, perhaps. And I'm wondering if we can turn our attention a little bit to some of the more positive aspects of Gen Z as it relates to faith. And one of the things you've already mentioned is how spiritually curious Gen Zs are, and I'm wondering if there's other sort of aspects of Gen Z spirituality that suggests there is still a lot of opportunity and hope for bringing young people into relationship with Jesus.

April McNeilly

So Gen Zs are, they're world changers, right? Studies are showing that—and this is numerous, numerous studies—they're pragmatic, they're visionary, they're entrepreneurial, they're really, truly a force to be reckoned with. Even though there's lots of anxiety and fear and all of that—I'm not discounting any of that's also part of who Gen Z is. But I would say, because of that fear and anxiety, they know that the world is broken. That's probably why studies are showing—Jean Twenge, she talks about this as well. They're really drawn to dystopian movies and novels because then they often will see their generation as being the heroes, right? So, there is this sense that, “Man, things are bad, but Jesus is incredible, and we get to join him,” right? So that's a good thing. Gen Zs are fired up about that. They're hungry for more. I think that they want to meet more and more in kind of what I would call more radical discipleship. So they're wanting to be mentored. Yet, mentoring is not a, it seems to be a bit of a lost art. And again, this is some of the studies that I'm reading. So Gen Z has got all this information constantly, but very little wisdom, right? And a real lack of, I’d call ourselves “us old people,” elders at the gate who are willing to sit with them. So, if we can capitalize on their boldness, on their “all-in” kind of personality or spirit, and then meet with them. I meet with some Gen Zs. They're in different communities, different cities, they’re university students. And they meet every week, 7:30 in the morning, right? That's pretty cool. I don't know that I would have done that as a young 20-something. Actually, I’m sure that I would not have done that as a young 20-something-year-old. But that's the nature of serious Jesus-following Gen Zs. They want to be discipled. They want to know what they believe. And they want to sit together in authentic community and flesh ideas out. And they want to really, really seriously get a sense for where God's heartbeat is, in taking the gospel of Jesus to a world that's just, you know, spiraling out of control. So, good news. Great, great time to be a follower of Jesus, I think.

Rebekah McNeilly

I think this is like an exciting time to be a young Christian, a young Gen Z Christian. And all I can think to add is: in the course of my own faith, over the last two or three years in particular, I've been really excited to see that a lot of—I'm also a sociologist, criminologist by my academic training—and I've been really excited to see that the Christian framework—like, the intellectual Christian framework, not even just the person of Jesus, but the biblical framework for reality—is actually really easy to correlate to reality in the world. So, there are these secular writers like Louise Perry and others who are writing on subjects like motherhood and womanhood and things like that, and—

April McNeilly

What it means to be human.

Rebekah McNeilly

—what it means to be human, things like this. And they're writing from a secular perspective. They're writing on marriage, you know, on why do marriages fall apart? Why do marriages stay together? Things like that. And they're totally not writing as Christians, and they're presenting secular arguments, and I've been so struck as I read those books that they're actually making biblical arguments. They're just not calling them biblical arguments. They're sociological, or they're psychological. And so for me, as a Christian, now having the space and the time to kind of make those connections in my own mind, between what is really happening in the world around me, in the West, and what the Bible says is good and true, written thousands of years ago, how that's actually holding up and corresponding really well. So, we're presented with many ideologies and frameworks for how we interpret reality. We're presented with them in university, on social media, by our peer groups. And it's been really hopeful for me to think—you know what? From a pretty pragmatic perspective, I actually find the biblical framework the most compelling. And then when you layer that with the person of Jesus and a personal relationship with him, this is great. This is the best-case scenario. I would pick this even if I was in a faith crisis, which might not have been true, you know, eight years ago. So that has been a hopeful thing for me, that the corresponding end to the curiosity that Gen Zs are exhibiting is that there is a lot there. There are a lot of answers to find, and that's, like, a confidence that people can hang on to who are in teaching roles and mentoring roles and in conversations. There's a lot that they could find there that is good, and that is true, and that will resonate with the reality that we exist in.

April McNeilly

Yeah, the Judeo-Christian message, the story of Jesus, the gospel—it just makes sense, right? In so many ways. It's the answer to so many of life's questions. 

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, and Rebekah, of course, you are somebody who has stayed in the church and in the faith. I'm wondering, on a personal level, did you ever consider leaving, or go through a period where you experienced a lot of doubt? And if you thought about leaving but didn't, what kept you connected? Or if you did leave and then came back, what led you back?

Rebekah McNeilly

Yeah, I did fully leave for about a year when I was 22—and my mom will remember this period fondly—not so fondly, very difficult time. Yes, I did leave, and I think the reasons I left are probably a lot of the same reasons that other young people leave the church. I was so disillusioned with the hypocrisy I saw. I was so hurt by the message that I saw being preached verbally, and then the way that I experienced those people privately, behind closed doors, you know. And I just hated Christianity—like, truly, that's how I felt in the moment. And I remember I left, and I made new friends. And I dated a non-Christian for a year, and, you know, was in with his friends, and they were really good people. It's not a terrible story of these horrible, you know, “bad influences.” They were great, wonderful, beautiful people. And I remember very distinctly, about seven months into dating this person, that I was on my own, and I was feeling really sad, and I wanted to talk to God, and I was like, “But I'm not a Christian. I can't talk to God.” And I really felt him call out to me and say, “Oh no, but I would love to still talk to you. I would love to still talk to you right now.” And so, the reason I ultimately came back was, first of all, when I sensed God saying that to me, I was like, “OK, well, fine, then maybe I'll chat to you periodically, just because.” So, I think he beckons us back. And then I would say, beyond that, my parents very faithfully stayed in dialogue with me. I mean, of course, I think when you leave, you feel like you're wounding your parents, and you're letting them down and you're betraying them. And I think parents do feel that way, and they can maybe react in anger. But that wasn't the case with my parents. My parents were extremely loving and willing to have conversation with me about why I left. And I do also remember—and maybe I'm outing my mom, I don't know if I can say this—but I do remember my mom saying, “I don't really care what church you go to. It doesn't have to be The Salvation Army. I just want you to be in relationship with Jesus.” And that was so freeing for me, to be like, “Oh, that's what matters to my parents. It's not tradition, it's not, you know, appearances, it's not their friends’ opinions of me. It's that I'm in relationship with Jesus.” And then the other thing I would say is, I had some friends who I'm still friends with today, who did a really good job at straddling the line of not pretending that they thought what I was doing was OK. So, kind of like, “Hey, this is the truth that we believe and that you've always believed, and you're not living according to it anymore. And that actually saddens me. I'm not, like, fine with it.” They didn't give me the “you do you” kind of answer. But they also managed to love me fiercely at the same time. And so, when I came back, I knew that they would rejoice and not be like, “Oh, you're so wishy-washy. Pick a side.” They would rejoice because they stayed firm in the truth. But I also knew that they were deeply committed to loving me. So, yeah, I think those are the main things.

April McNeilly

That was a really, really hard time. I can remember sitting on our deck, when we're in Kingston, when Rebekah said, “I'm done. I'm done with the church. I'm done with God.” And I remember saying, “What do you mean? What does that even mean?” “I don't believe in anything anymore.” And it was just, oh my goodness, right? As a mom, as a follower of Jesus, I thought, Lord, what am I going to do with this? That was a hard, hard time, yeah. So, we have four daughters, and one of our other daughters, as well, deconstructed. She went through about, I guess—what, Rebekah? A year and a half of deconstruction? Something like that. And by then, Rebekah had come back strongly to Jesus and would have conversation with her as well. And I remember—and she has now come back and she's more robust in her faith than ever now, right? But I remember, similar to Rebekah, actually, about a year into her deconstructing, she said to me, one day, “I miss Jesus, mom,” and those were the best words in the world for me to hear. And with regards to, you know, whether or not they come back to The Salvation Army: So I'm in very, very close contact with a number of Gen Zs, and without thinking too deliberately about it right now, but I would say half, if not more than half, of them who are strong followers of Jesus are worshipping in a different denomination. They're not with The Salvation Army. They love our tribe, but they're worshipping elsewhere. That's a different discussion, which we could have a whole other podcast about, obviously. But for me, The Salvation Army has been so good to me. No question about that. And I love being an officer, but I have always said to our children, “Look, I just want you to love Jesus. I want you to know him, and you just need to be in a faith community who loves him and stands on the Word of God, and that's what matters, not an allegiance to a particular denomination.” 

Rebekah McNeilly

Yeah, and I ended up back in a Salvation Army church. So here we are.

April McNeilly

The other daughter who deconstructed and came back to Jesus, she's in a non-denominational church right now, but just loves, loves Jesus. So, of our four daughters, two of the four are attending the Army, and the other two are attending other denominations, but all four are strong in their faith.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, and Rebekah, I can see why that was so important to you because, you know, having that kind of unconditional love from our parents is so essential, and it's wonderful that your parents did provide that and gave you that sort of safe place to sort of question and go off, but then the love that brings you back as well. So, well as we're sort of wrapping up—and I know, Rebekah, you don't speak for everybody out there in the Gen Z realm—but I'm wondering if, as a Gen Z in the Army, what would you like to say to the Army at large, and especially older generations of Salvationists? What do young Salvationists want or need from the older generations?

Rebekah McNeilly

Yes. OK, so first I would say that one of the greatest strategies of the enemy is to undermine our view of God's goodness. And James talks about this in chapter one. He talks about, he says, the Scripture says, “So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters, whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God, our Father.” And I think one of the things I would say to people, and in particular Gen Zs and in particular leaders is, if what you're experiencing and questioning is leading you down a road that is causing you to believe that God is not good and that he doesn't see you in your suffering, that is a lie—that is always a lie and that then needs to be dealt with head on. We should question, but when our questions bring us to believe that God is against us, that is a deception. That would be one of the main things. And then the other thing I would say is, please have conversations with us. I understand not wanting to be put in a position where you're ambushed by angry Gen Zs—that's fair. I wouldn't want that for anyone. But some of us—actually, probably many of us—are not that, and we are interested in coming to fruitful conclusions and outcomes. We're not just interested in, you know, a righteously indignant dialogue or monologue. We want to be in conversation. So yeah, that's what I would say is, we're not all angry, and we do want to have fruitful dialogue, and even dialogue that doesn't end with an answer, but that just also kind of humanizes each other and all the generations and the life experiences that they come from, because at the end of the day—and Carolyn Reid spoke about this in chapel yesterday—it is so important that we have unity in our body, and that will be the greatest testimony to a divided and aching world. And one of the ways we can get to unity is, I think, by having honest conversations with each other. That’s what I would say.

April McNeilly

Those are among Jesus last words before he went to the cross, right? The world will see your love and your unity and know that I've come. It's pretty powerful. 

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. I think that's a wonderful place to conclude with that encouraging word, and hopefully we've modelled that even a little bit here with our three generations having this conversation. And for listeners who might not know, Major April has been writing a series on Gen Z for Salvationist.ca, and we will link to that in the show notes. But as we wrap up, I just want to say again, thank you so much for this enlightening, this really thought-provoking and beautifully honest conversation. Thank you so much to both of you.

April McNeilly

Thanks, Kristin.

Kristin Ostensen

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. Be sure to check out Major April’s article series for more information on this topic. For more episodes of the podcast, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.