Leading the Way: How the Army Empowers Employees, With Paul Carew

The Canada and Bermuda Territory currently has about 9,300 employees spread across hundreds of ministry units, making up a significant amount of the leadership in the Army today. 

So how is our territory equipping our employees for success? And how can we better harness the skills and diversity in our ranks? 

On this episode of the podcast we’re sitting down with Paul Carew, who is the leadership development secretary for Canada and Bermuda, and a lifelong Salvationist. We look at how the Army’s leadership is evolving, the importance of staying mission-focused, and what gives him hope for the Army’s future.

Transcript

Kristin Ostensen

This is the Salvationist podcast. I'm Kristin Ostensen. What best describes your relationship with The Salvation Army? Are you a Salvationist? An officer? An employee? Maybe a volunteer or a supporter? If you answered “employee,” you’re in good company. The Canada and Bermuda Territory currently has about 9,300 employees spread across hundreds of ministry units. We are a strong and committed bunch, and we make up a significant amount of the leadership in the Army today. So how is our territory equipping our employees for success? And how can we better harness the skills and diversity in our ranks? On this episode of the podcast we’re sitting down with Paul Carew, who is the leadership development secretary for our territory and a lifelong Salvationist. We look at how the Army’s leadership is evolving, the importance of staying mission-focused, and what gives him hope for the Army’s future.

Hi Paul, and welcome to the Salvationist podcast.

Paul Carew 

Yeah, good morning. Good to see you, Kristin.

Kristin Ostensen  

Yes, good to have you here. So, in Salvationist magazine, we have a department called What's Your Story?, where we share stories of officers and employees and how they came to serve in the Army. So, I'm going to start by asking you, Paul, what's your story? How did you end up working for the Army?

Paul Carew

Yeah, an interesting question, and I often tell people I've been part of the Army for minus 9 months, which means 64 years and 9 months. My parents were officers, and I’ve travelled across Canada as an officer's kid. I've lived from Newfoundland to Alberta to Labrador, and so I've known the Army, and it's been part of my life since I was literally born. Grew up in the Army, but chose to pursue a career in education and had some wonderful experiences. Spent 32 years in public education, a few years in a teaching role, then also as a vice principal, and then as a principal. I was fortunate to be in 6 schools in an administrative role in York Region, which is just north of Toronto, mostly in the Markham area. And then spent the last three and a half years of my career as a superintendent in York Region District School Board. So, all that to say, I really loved being in all those education roles in York Region and was feeling really settled in that God had placed me there in many ways, found many opportunities and quiet ways [for me] to share my faith with people at appropriate times, obviously with some restrictions, obviously in a public school setting. I'd actually passed my retirement age, which, thanks to the Ontario teachers’ pension plan, is relatively young, and was kind of thinking about an alternative, looking for something else to do. At that time, I was leading the band. I was the Bandmaster at North Toronto Community Church. And in the band was Colonel Jamie Braund, who, at that time, was Personnel Secretary. In an informal conversation in a parking lot one evening, I said to him, “Hey, Jamie, just wondering, if I were to retire, is there anything you think I might be able to play a small role in and contribute to The Salvation Army?” And his reaction was, “Really, absolutely, we need to figure something out.” We settled on giving something a try for 6 months to a year. We thought we would try for 6 months to a year, and that was more than 9 years ago. 

Kristin Ostensen

Oh wow. 

Paul Carew

So, that sort of chance encounter and question led to what has been a wonderful opportunity to play a role in the current position I have with the Army. The other comment I would make about that is, I remember when I decided to do it and retire and start off in this new adventure, being challenged by Major Deana Zelinsky, a family friend, who said at the time, I said something to “Oh, I'm so lucky to be able to have had all that wonderful time in public education, and now I'm so lucky to serve in this role.” And she stopped me in my tracks and said, “That's not luck, that's God's providential care in your life.”

Kristin Ostensen

That's awesome. I did not know all of that background. Of course, I know you a little bit through some of the Leadership Development things, but it's really cool to hear your story, and we employees, you and me, are a strong force. We are actually about 9,300 people today, and that number has been relatively steady over the decades. I did look it up, and about 30 years ago, there were almost 11,000 of us, 10 years ago, 8,000, but there's been that kind of steady and strong force. For people who don't know that, and maybe for people listening, do you think that people would be surprised to hear that there are about 10,000 employees for the Army today?

Paul Carew

Yeah, I think people are very surprised to hear that. And people who have been in the Army for a long time. I think of friends who attend North Toronto with me, or friends who attend other corps. They don't realize the size of the employed force. They think of the corps settings. And of course, maybe those corps settings don't have a lot of employees in them. We rely on lay leadership in those churches. And so, I think for many of them, when I say that number, they're quite surprised. And the flip side is also true. I think some of the folks who are in Social Service settings are focused on their work, what they do in their setting, and they might know other types of shelters like them, but they sort of forget this whole other side of the Army, or they're surprised how many churches are in Canada or how many thrift stores are in Canada. So, I think part of it is that each of those different areas is really not as aware as perhaps they should be about the Army's mission and work in those other areas, and so, as a real result, it is a bit of a surprise. I do think the one thing that also ties into that is that people are well aware that the officer ranks have shrunk over time. My Dad, at one time, was the Personnel Secretary, but he's passed away in the last few months. But one of the things he would always talk about was how, when he was in the early 90s, Personnel Secretary, or mid-90s, they had 1,500 officers, and now that number is around 500, so I think people sometimes know that number about officer decline in numbers, and extrapolated over into thinking that employee ranks are similarly, have diminished as well, and that's not, in fact, the case. 

Kristin Ostensen 

That is a good point. And of course, our organization, The Salvation Army, will always be officer-led, officer-driven. And as you mentioned, we're over 500 strong, but the employees that we have, do work at all levels, from frontline workers to managers to directors to even the secretary level, such as yourself. And as I was preparing for this conversation, I remembered a comment that a former DC [Divisional Commander] said to me, which was that there are more leaders in the Army who are not officers than those who are, which is a really interesting point, and in this context, as the face of leadership in our territory is shifting a bit, how is Leadership Development important and key to our future?

Paul Carew 

I think we have a responsibility to grow those leaders, and especially those employee leaders, in a way that they would be able to move into some of those positions that perhaps previously had been held by officers, and that, in itself, is a bit tricky. It's interesting that even in this role I'm in currently, I remember when, at the time, the Chief Secretary, who is now the Commissioner, Lee Graves, Colonel Brian Armstrong, was being moved into the personnel role, and Commissioner, then Chief Secretary, Colonel Graves, asked me up to his office to talk about replacing Brian's role. And one of my comments was, “Are you fine with that role not being an officer?” Given that I knew that everybody previously in that role had been an officer, I was a little bit surprised to hear him say, “Absolutely,” but you are correct. I had to get permission from IHQ [International Headquarters], as this is a reserved officer's appointment. I'm like, “So you're still okay with it?” And he went on to say something to the effect of, “I know you, well, I know you're a strong Salvationist, and there are a couple of people who actually know you who are currently in IHQ.” And so, it was not difficult to do at all, but it has presented a couple of issues here and there along the way, where I'm not an officer, and I know I'm in this role that was previously held by officers. So, going back to your question, I think we have a responsibility to make sure that, as these positions, perhaps that were previously only led by officers, prior to current time, that we have a responsibility to try to prepare them as well as possible so that they can fill that role.

Kristin Ostensen 

Very good point. And while we're always going to encourage folks to follow God's call and become officers, I'm wondering how we might also encourage Salvationists like yourself to consider serving as an employee and taking on leadership roles.

Paul Carew 

So I've had conversations in the last couple of years even about that, with some senior leaders, and the comment often goes something like this: there must be more people out there who would be willing to, and how do we let them know that there are things that are available that they could take on in leadership for the territory? And we don't do a great job of publicizing that, making that aware. I think it's important for us to think about that. I don't think sometimes we do a great job in terms of succession planning. And one of the things that happens in succession planning is hopefully you're thinking of people who are in roles 3 years out, 5 years out, 10 years out, who might fill those roles. And so, I think sometimes we have missed the mark a little bit in perhaps thinking about Salvationists we know across the territory, who are in roles or are perhaps they're coming towards a retirement. Maybe it's an early retirement. Perhaps it's someone looking for a bit of a career change and would be willing to offer to serve in a certain season of life. And I don't think we connect those dots as well as we could sometimes. I was reading in Salvationist, Commissioner Graves' article about lay leaders and playing those roles, and he uses that word in there. He talks a little bit about the season of life when someone might serve. I think sometimes we just go back to the previous generation, where people served somewhere for 40 years with one company and retired with that company, and then left to go and retire, and that's all they did. But I think even looking at today's younger generation, there's more movement and shifting from place to place, and I think each of those individuals sometimes finds themselves in a different season in their life where they'd like to make different contributions at different times. And for me, that early, it was a full retirement, but it was relatively early. I was in my mid-50s at the time. There was another season of life where I didn't want to just simply shut down, but I felt that I could serve in another way, and that season of life, it could look differently. And so, I think we need to be more aware. And I think there are some practical things we might be able to do to try to find out who's out there, who's available, who would be willing to serve, and who would be willing to take on roles that are important at certain times and certain seasons of life. 

Kristin Ostensen

No, that's a really good point. And, of course, with so many different employees across the territory, many people come from many different backgrounds, obviously, lots of Salvationists, and we encourage that. But I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how the diversity of our employee ranks are a benefit to the Army and to our leadership, and how we can embrace that diversity.

Paul Carew 

I believe part of that answer is in the fact that our senior leaders will always be officers. They'll always be clergy. They'll be ordained ministers who, their calling is to pastor and to lead and to be ministers of the gospel, and in that, those that have moved into positions of leadership, in many cases, need people around them who have expertise in different areas. And their need is to rely on people that they can count on who perhaps have professional expertise in an area, who can share with them, who can provide some background, some insight into the different fields, be it someone in who's got a specialty in communications or a specialty in how to train leaders or a specialty in finance or a specialty in whatever the case may be. Those people, in many cases, their skills have been honed in the private or other public sector. And I think it's those senior leaders who I've seen very successful in the Army over the years [they] have surrounded themselves with some experts, or some people with a deeper knowledge in a particular area. And I don't think it would be fair to want the those senior Army leaders to be anything other than ministers whose main function is to proclaim the gospel of Christ, but they're in leadership roles, or they're in sector-specific roles where they need some technical expertise and they need to rely on those people around them, and so I think the diversity that exists in those employees answers and meets that needs in a lot of ways and brings a perspective that they perhaps don't have. You know, growing up, I saw, and I still see the Army as a pretty insular organization. We often joke about, we all know each other. We're all 3 steps removed, not 6, you know, stages removed. We're like 2 degrees removed. And I think one of the things that happens when you bring in diverse people into these roles. You're bringing in the strength of knowledge that they might have acquired by working at CIBC, or working with York Region District School Board, or working with Ernst and Young, all those are brought in bring a broader perspective to the organization, the chance to see other views and consider those when making decisions. I'd also add that even within a leadership perspective, it's really easy as a leader to just bring in people who just believe the same thing as you, and just say the same thing as you. And that's a really bad path to go down. Really important to have some different views brought in, some people who might question what you're doing, or might bring a different perspective. And for a leader who's insecure, that's can be really hard sometimes, but we all know from lots of literature out there, that it's really important to have people who can bring different views to a table so that you can see different sides of things, see different views of things, and make better informed decisions that will have a greater impact on a broader group of people.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, that's a really good point, and I certainly see that in our own team as well. You know, we have people from various backgrounds, and it really is such a strength to get all those different perspectives together.

Paul Carew  

It's really easy just to rely on people who will make you feel good about yourself as a leader, or confirm what you believe. And we all know that that doesn't lead to, sometimes the best solutions to problems you're dealing with, or the best strategies moving forward. It's better to have that broader perspective, for sure.

Kristin Ostensen 

And you definitely end up with more creativity, I think, through some of those tensions, even working out through discussion. And of course, you know, we have this amazing diversity, but we also have our core values, who we are as The Salvation Army. So how can we ensure that our Army mission and values remain strong and central, from our leaders to the front line, and perhaps you can talk about some of the work you're doing as the Leadership Development Secretary in conveying that, and establishing that.

Paul Carew  

I think it's really important that we make sure that as we provide opportunities for people to learn and develop, that we don't drift far away from our main focus of mission. I'm occasionally reminded of the importance to simply follow the examples of Christ. And I even think about the fact that our LEADS framework, [Leads Self, Engage Others, Achieve Results, Develop Coalitions, System Transformation], which is our articulation of how one should lead, there's 5 categories and 20 capabilities. I could easily read through the New Testament and consider the life of Christ, and I could check all those leadership capabilities in his life. And so, I'm reminded how there is this great example that we all need to follow, and it's central to what we do. In a more practical way, one of the things we lean into are the values of the organization. And I know you've been at a couple of things that we do, and there is not a training in person [with] a little get to know you exercise at the beginning where we don’t bring people back to the values of the Army in the mission. We simply ask them to look at those 4 values, and we ask them to share their role, introduce themselves, and pick one of the values and explain how they've tried to live out that value in their role, working with the Army over the last month. I bet you, we've done that for more than 600 people over the last few years, and nobody has been unable to come up with an example. In fact, we joke a little bit about the fact that most people are able to pull an example from the work that they do and the people they work with, that demonstrates all 4 of them, and they often want to talk about 2 or 3 of the values. And we say we don't have all the time. You want to just pick one, explain one. So, I think that the idea of bringing people back to their values is really important. After we do that exercise with people, one of the things I often say to them is, “I think this is a great exercise for you to do with your staff, with your people, with your company, with your leadership team, with your ministry board. It wouldn't be hard to do that. And every time you do that, remind people of the 4 values that exist and the mission of The Salvation Army. I think you've created this wonderful opportunity for people to ground the work that they do.”

Kristin Ostensen 

That's such a good point. And I do actually remember doing that very exercise in one of the leadership seminars I attended with your team. And you're absolutely right. Everybody had wonderful answers. And it was also so touching, I think, to see how those answers played out so differently in different contexts, whether it was those of us who work at THQ or those of us who work out in the thrift stores, whatever it was, the answers were really lovely, and I really do appreciate that grounding and that return of focus. And of course, we have been talking mostly about employees today, but I wonder, you know, as a Salvationist who served in leadership in your own corps setting, and you mentioned you've done over 20 years combined, I wonder if you have any thoughts on how we might encourage leadership development in our corps settings as well. Are there any principles from the work that you're doing through headquarters that we could take out to the people in the pews?

Paul Carew 

Yeah, I think it's an important thing for us to consider. It's interesting. I drift back to it every now and then and something will come up, and it reminds me that it is a bit of a responsibility. And in the past, there were some formalized programs, I'm thinking in the past 20, 30, years that were created for people who were lay leaders in churches. The other reason that's important is, like many organizations I know, even within the school board, it's becoming more and more difficult to get people to commit to long-term volunteer roles. My experience has been people are happy to participate in one-off events and provide support for a particular event, school fundraiser, or this particular weekend, or a rally day weekend, or that sort of thing. But to get people to be part of an ongoing leadership role as a volunteer within a church is sometimes difficult to do, and I think sometimes it could be made easier if we provided more support for those people. I think I've been guilty of that in the past myself. When I was running a Sunday school at my local church, to recruit people to be Sunday school teachers was a very difficult task. And sometimes, as soon as I got someone to say, yes, I would sort of say, mission accomplished. They're good. I'll just leave them alone, only to find out that they were struggling, and, 3 months later, they were like, “Well, this is really hard, and I don't want to do this anymore.” So, I think we do have an inherent responsibility to provide them with support so that they can be successful with what they're doing and let them realize that there are lots of benefits, certainly for the church and for the organization, but also for themselves to grow and develop in their [roles] when they're in leader roles. So, if we can provide support for them, that would be terrific. I think of one particular group where we've taken one of the programs that we offer, an online program called the Foundational Leadership Certificate. It's offered through Harvard ManageMentor, an online leadership program that we have literally hundreds of people involved in, employees across the territory. And I can think of the work that Music and Arts [Ministries] did with a particular cohort. And the way it worked was, at the time, we were speaking to Heather Osmond, who's the Music and Arts Secretary, and we were talking to her about having some participants, and she created a cohort which, yes, had two or three employees, but also had some volunteer music leaders from across the country. So there were people who were Choir Directors, Songster Leaders, Worship Team Leaders, Bandmasters, who joined in and went through this online program and then met with her periodically to discuss their learnings and how they applied to their local setting and how that could be helpful in enhancing the ministry of music in Salvation Army churches across the country. So, I think of that example as a really good one. Heather even built one of the courses herself, and we substituted and swapped it in, but that was a good example of how we could provide support for people who are in those leadership roles. We've talked about a couple of other areas, but we have not really landed on and gotten anything off the ground where we've had other groups commit to being part of a leadership training program as volunteers from within a corps. It always sits on my OneNote list of things to do.

Kristin Ostensen 

That's such a good idea, though. And as someone who actually has done that course, I can see it being incredibly valuable at the local corps level.

Paul Carew 

In addition to the music group, another group that we've had some success with, actually more than a couple of cohorts, is the Pathway of Hope. So Claire Dunmore and Sharon Stoops have, from that department, stepped in and worked with our team and created their own version of again, another FLC [Foundational Leadership Certification] program, and while there are people who are employees and some officers involved, there are also people in volunteer roles who have stepped in and done that program together, and again, they've gotten together after doing the course and talked about how that applies to their role in trying to reach out into the community from a local church. So, the Music and Arts [Ministries] and Pathway of Hope, those are two areas where we've been able to step in and provide some support for people. But, I have a suspicion there are a lot of other areas that we could jump into, and it’s just a matter of connecting with the right people and getting a couple of cohorts off the ground to enhance leadership at the local level.

Kristin Ostensen 

Well, having been through that program, I have to say that's a brilliant idea, and would certainly encourage anybody to take it. It really is helpful for one's leadership development. So, as we close, and reflecting on your work as the Leadership Development Secretary, what gives you hope and encouragement as you think about the future of the Army?

Paul Carew 

There's a lot, I know. Sometimes, we focus on some of the negatives, and we're trying to fill voids, and we're realizing there's not enough officers, and there's a lot of work to be done. It's never-ending. But as I consider this, I go back to that little activity I described, where we talk about the values with people that we interact with, and I'm immensely encouraged by the passion with which people answer that question. Everybody has a story about something that's happening in a ministry unit, in a corps, in a shelter somewhere where the Army is touching people. And these stories are all about individuals and the difference they are making in people's lives. And I'm encouraged by the fact that we are reaching so many people across the country, but that's enhanced by the fact that everybody that answers that question speaks with a passion and a desire to make this happen. It really is encouraging. It's a great way. You often do it at the beginning of a day, or often at the beginning of a couple days, with people, and there's nothing better than hearing other people talk about how they're making a difference in someone's lives because of the work of The Salvation Army, and how they have that opportunity to share the love of Christ to others, because of the role that The Salvation Army can play in the community.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, that's a really good answer. Well, thank you so much, Paul, for your time today. It was really neat to hear all these good examples of how the Army is developing and encouraging leaders. And it gives myself and a lot of our listeners hope to hear that as well.

Paul Carew

Yeah, glad to share with you, and thanks for the opportunity to hopefully share with a bigger audience about all the wonderful learning opportunities that exist for people who are leaders in the Army.

Kristin Ostensen

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. For more episodes, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.