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Untold Stories of 9/11: How The Salvation Army Responded
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This week, we mark the 25th anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001. We remember the collective horror we all felt as the world watched the events unfold, seeing the destruction and lives lost in real time. And in The Salvation Army, we remember the collective action that took place in the days and months that followed—the thousands of officers, employees and volunteers who stepped in to help.
On this episode of the podcast, we’re going across Canada—from Newfoundland and Labrador to Vancouver—and to the heart of Ground Zero in New York City, for an inside look at the Army’s 9/11 response. We’ll hear the stories of four people who were part of that response:
- Claude Elliott, mayor of Gander, N.L., at the time, who was instrumental in the town's response when 38 planes were grounded there;
- John Maxwell, a passenger whose plane was grounded in Gander, who spent several days at the Salvation Army church in nearby Lewisporte, N.L.;
- Major Lynn Cummings, a Canadian Salvation Army officer who served at Ground Zero in October 2001; and
- John McEwan, a Salvationist who assisted grounded passengers in Vancouver and later led the Army's relief efforts at the "Taj Mahal" at Ground Zero when operations concluded in May 2002.
Kristin Ostensen
This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. “Where were you on 9/11?” If you’re like me, you probably remember the exact place and time you found out about the terrorist attacks on the United States. I remember the collective horror we all felt on September 11, 2001, watching the events unfold, seeing the destruction and the lives lost in real time. But looking back now, 25 years later, we see not just the collective horror but the collective action that took place in the days that followed—the outpouring of support for those affected by the attacks. And in The Salvation Army, we remember the thousands of officers, employees and volunteers who stepped in to help.
On this episode of the podcast, we’re going across Canada—from Newfoundland and Labrador to Vancouver—and to the heart of Ground Zero in New York City, for an inside look at the Army’s 9/11 response. We’ll go first to Newfoundland and talk with Claude Elliott, who was mayor of Gander at the time. And with John Maxwell, a passenger whose plane was grounded there. We’ll also talk to Major Lynn Cummings and John McEwan, who were part of the Ground Zero response near the beginning and at the very end.
For Claude Elliott, September 11 started off as a completely ordinary day, and he was at a local coffee shop with some friends when the news of the attack broke.
Claude Elliott
So, I left and went to my home and turned on my TV, and I seen what everybody else in the world was seeing, especially in New York, where the plane's going into the Twin Towers and that. And I wasn't home very long before I got a call from the town manager saying, "You better come in.” He said it looks like United States is under a terrorist attack, and they're going to close down their airspace, and that Canada has agreed to take all the aircraft in the air. And we knew at that hour in the morning that we would probably get the European traffic, because once you leave Europe in the morning, once you get halfway across the ocean, the nearest airport is Gander, and all the planes were told to land at the nearest airport. Well, we ended up with 38 planes and almost 7,000 people.
Kristin Ostensen
John Maxwell was one of those people. At the time, he was a member of the U.S. Navy, and he was travelling to Philadelphia from Rome with his dog. After his plane was grounded in Gander, he spent several days at the Salvation Army church in nearby Lewisporte. In the immediate aftermath of the attack, John says that very little information was shared with the plane passengers. But even before they landed in Newfoundland, they knew something was wrong.
John Maxwell
There was an Alitalia employee, who lived in Philly, seated next to me. Next to him was a young man who had a two-way radio. When we made the direct 90-degree north, he started picking up CBC. Because the pilots would tell us nothing, only that there's a backup in Philly. We've been told to do circles. But the Alitalia employee told me there's never a backup in Philly, and it's a straight shot in to land. He said something's going on. So then the guy with the radio picked up the feed out of Canada, and all the feed was, two propelled, the little small Cessnas that everybody thought that hit. We're like, Oh, it's an accident, OK. Well, we didn't we didn't actually find out for sure until we got on the ground in Gander. We didn't see the whole thing until we got to Lewisporte and actually saw it on video in the church.
Kristin Ostensen
While John and his fellow passengers waited to find out what was happening, on the ground, Gander was preparing to welcome the world. But as Claude explains, it was a tall task for a community of 9,000 people. Yet, as a lifelong Salvationist who attends the Gander Corps, Claude knew The Salvation Army could help.
Claude Elliott
At the beginning we were told that the planes were only going to be on the ground for a few hours until the U.S. could figure out this how widespread this terrorist attack was. So basically, we were just operating in the first couple hours, just hour by hour, not knowing really what to do, and it was probably, you know, by 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, we realized that, hey, this is going to be a lot longer. So, the decision was made to set up the emergency operations centre and contact all the people that we would contact in emergency disaster. And we said it was better to be overprepared than underprepared. And that's when we called everybody. You know, we had that like the fire chief. We, you know, we had government, from provincial, federal government, the Alliant, the Red Cross, The Salvation Army. Ironically, The Salvation Army was never part of our disaster plan, but we knew that they had a lot of resources, and we called them in.
Kristin Ostensen
Once his plane landed in Gander, John had to wait a long time to get off. To make matters more difficult, he had no way of contacting his wife in Washington, D.C., to find out how she was doing and let her know that he was all right. And as the hours ticked by, he worried about his dog in the cargo hold.
John Maxwell
I think there was about five of us total that had pets in the cargo hold. So, we're like, Uhh—because we weren't allowed to leave the plane for, I think it was almost close to 36 hours, we stayed on board.
Kristin Ostensen
Wow.
John Maxwell
Which led to overflowing toilets, and Air Canada sent us sandwich foods so we could eat because we're running out of food. But anyway, we were asking the captain, we said, "What's going to happen with our pets? They can't stay down there.” And so unbeknownst to us, the great people of Gander, I think it was their version of the SPCA, had gotten permission because security wouldn't let any plane remove any baggage because of security, or let anyone leave the planes. But they got permission to go to each plane that they knew had pets on board, open the cargo hold, feed the pets, water them, clean the boxes out, all that. So that was our immediate concern—for the dogs and cats. But we had we had about five clergy on my flight, so there was some praying going on, and before we left the flight, it helped alleviate some stress on people.
Kristin Ostensen
Given how long some passengers were stuck on the planes, it was a key priority for Claude and the team to ensure there was food waiting for them when they got off. Thankfully, The Salvation Army was there with meals and open arms.
Claude Elliott
You can imagine all those planes up there. All the food was gone, all the water. There was nothing left aboard the planes, and that's where The Salvation Army came in. We got them, they went to the airport, took 300 or 400 volunteers up to the airport, and we trucked the food up, and they made up 7,000 lunchboxes at the airport, and then as people came off the planes, they were given this lunchbox, which consisted of a juice, a fruit, a sandwich, and a water. And most of the, a lot of the volunteers then would hug the people as they came through, and welcomed them and gave them a hug.
Kristin Ostensen
The time the passengers spent on the planes was long and uncomfortable, but it gave Gander an opportunity to find solutions to the massive problem it was facing as the town’s population nearly doubled in a matter of hours: where was everybody going to stay?
Claude Elliott
The biggest challenge was accommodations, you know, with only 500 hotel rooms. But what we did, we contacted every church, every organization, every school, and said, "How many can you take? How many can you take?” And before the first person came off the plane, we knew where everybody was going. We had that all planned out. So, like, Gander Academy had 700 people staying at the elementary school. Another school had 500, and then there was a few communities surrounding Gander that helped us and took a few passengers. I think those around 80 staying at the Salvation Army church here in in Gander, and then, you know, other churches had people. So we had to, I guess, emphasize on and use up what we had because we didn't have the hotel rooms to do it. It was a time when you had to rely on your faith and expect that the good Lord was going to help us through this, you know, this thing too, right?
Kristin Ostensen
The Salvation Army’s main role in Gander was coordinating food for the passengers and the volunteers who were assisting with the emergency response.
Claude Elliott
We put The Salvation Army in charge of distributing the food. All the food was trucked to the community centre, which was also, it would act as a hockey rink, and the ice was down. So we put it all up there, and we used it as a refrigerator. And The Salvation Army, they coordinated all the meals. For example, where people were staying, like, Gander Academy, is 700 people. They would go up to the community centre, The Salvation Army was there with their volunteers, and they would say, "Here's what we need for breakfast. Here's what we need for lunch. Here's what we need for dinner. Here's what we need for snacks.” All that then was put together on trucks, and they would deliver that to every place in Gander where people were staying. And over the five days that The Salvation Army coordinated, over 200,000 meals that was sent out because you had to feed the volunteers, too, because they were there 24 hours around the clock, you know. So, there's no question about it, that The Salvation Army played an enormous role in that. And I go all over the world speaking where I'm invited, and always tell people: if they're in your community, add them into your disaster plan because they certainly took a lot of worries and helped with a lot of things that we didn't have to worry about. And that was another thing that we learned from it: that we never had to worry about the people that was volunteering, the groups and helping, because everybody knew what to do and everybody worked in unison, and there was nobody that, you know, that was upset or said anything—just went about their work and done it. And, you know, it was an amazing five days. But we made a lot of friends. You know, we made a lot of friends.
Kristin Ostensen
Along with providing food, The Salvation Army hosted passengers such as John at churches in the area.
John Maxwell
When they finally let us off, straight onto the bus to Lewisporte. No bags. Only what you carried on as your hand carry. And they took us straight to this building, and we're looking at it like, This is a church of some sort? There was a firehouse next door. There was a elementary across the parking lot and a little convenience store, I think I remember. Piled us into the church and said, "Here's where you’re staying until you can leave.” So, we're looking around for beds—there was no beds! [laughs] So, the first night I slept in a pew, which, being in the navy working on aircraft carriers, it was eh. It was good, better than the alternative. And I think we were there three nights, four days, before we were allowed to leave.
Kristin Ostensen
While the Lewisporte Corps wasn’t exactly set up to host people overnight, the church did its best—finding creative ways to ensure the passengers got what they needed.
John Maxwell
There was no showers in the Salvation church. So, then they started letting us go to the elementary school. Everybody took a turn, da da da. And then that's when the two majors—it was a husband and wife team that was running the church—I guess they put the call out, or everybody knew, people started coming out of the woodwork, saying, "Come to my house. Come to my house. You can use the shower.” And me and a buddy ended up at this little old lady's house, and she says, "Take a hot shower. Take as long as you need. I'll make tea. I'll do this.” Being married to a Canadian, I knew they were all nice, so we accepted the offer. We went to her house and had tea and crumpets and took a hot shower and for about a couple hours and then she drove us back. And then the SA folks were great because they opened up the kitchen, had a full-blown kitchen in there in the community area, three meals a day. We tried to help them—they wouldn't let us help. They told us, "No, you just go watch the TV, call your”—if you can get a hold of anyone. I couldn't get a hold of anyone because my wife was in D.C. at the time with the two kids, living next to the Pentagon. So she was going through the whole Pentagon being hit. I couldn't get hold of her, and so she didn't know if I was alive. I didn't know … just thoughts running through your head. But I always tell people, if you had to be stranded somewhere, Newfoundland is the place to be stranded because the folks are great. They were absolutely wonderful, helpful. You name it.
Kristin Ostensen
After five days in Newfoundland, John got back on the plane to Philadelphia, and from there returned home to Washington, D.C. He and his family were living in a neighbourhood very close to the Pentagon, just across the Potomac River. His wife and children were home when American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon on 9/11.
John Maxwell
Finally got home to DC. Didn't realize that when the plane hit the Pentagon—we were actually living in military housing across the Potomac. So, when it hit the Pentagon, the wife felt it.
Kristin Ostensen
Wow.
John Maxwell
In the house with the two-year-old, five-year-old. Like, what in the world? It was like a little earthquake type of feeling. And she went outside with the kids, and all the other neighbours had come outside. They looked across the Potomac—there was this smoke. And it hit the Navy section of the Pentagon. Some of the folks that lived on our block were in that area. We never saw them again. One of them I do remember specifically was, the mother was home, two kids, and they never saw their dad again. And they lived right up the street from us. The other one, that flight—I don't know if you knew this, but that flight was holding 20 to 30 kids, school kids, that were going on a field trip, and some of those kids lived in our neighbourhood. And one of the fathers was in the Navy, and he went as chaperone. Never came home. I mean, we found that out after the fact, but it was like, holy smokes!
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah.
John Maxwell
So, we were in a pretty sad neighbourhood for a while, but the Navy took care of them. We all took care of them.
Kristin Ostensen
The Salvation Army’s response on 9/11 spanned the Canada and Bermuda Territory. Along with assistance across Newfoundland, the Army supported grounded passengers in Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Alberta, British Columbia, the Yukon and more. Bermuda Salvationists were called in to counsel and assist both air passengers and cruise ship passengers. In Ontario, emergency vehicles were sent to border towns to provide assistance to stranded motorists. But in New York City itself, the Army’s response continued for many months following the attacks. Down at Ground Zero, EDS workers provided practical support, such as food and drinks, as well as emotional and spiritual care, for almost nine months. From October 2001 to May 2002, more than 200 officers, employees and volunteers from the Canada and Bermuda Territory went to New York to help with The Salvation Army’s response, dubbed: “Operation: Compassion Under Fire.” Major Lynn Cummings was one of our territory’s earliest responders, assisting at Ground Zero for two weeks in October. Seeing the World Trade Center in ruins was a heart-breaking experience for Major Lynn.
Lynn Cummings
So first of all, we went to the command centre, and we were given our hard helmets, our clothing, t-shirts, jackets, and anything else that we required, our identification badges and our breathing masks—the big ones that cover most of your face. And they took us on a tour of the perimeter of the actual pit, Ground Zero, and I walked by myself. I didn't say anything to anybody, and right away, you know, I'd see a window, a smaller building close by that, you know, windows were blown out and curtains were swaying, blinds were swaying back and forth, and there would be a chair there. And I kept going: I wonder where the person is that sat there. I wonder, did they come to work that day? My heart became very heavy because I wondered where those people were, what happened. You know, we know how it happened, but yeah, I wondered a lot. When we got to the actual site where I was to be a part of, it was the main feeding centre right down there. And it was a very busy place because right beside that setup was where all the trucks went in and out, and they had to be washed down, decontaminated, because they were actually going and being filled with the debris from, you know, from the site. And those truck drivers, you know, long hours. I'm sure some of them slept in their trucks, and it was loud. The generators were going. It was busy, and I just thought, Yeah, this is where we, The Salvation Army, need to be at this time, and have a presence and just be there for people. It was—like, my heart was broken, but I kept my composure and kind of jumped in with two feet and said, "What's my responsibilities? What do I need to do?”
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, absolutely. And so, what were those responsibilities? For the two weeks you were there, what were your duties, and what did kind of a typical day look like for you?
Lynn Cummings
Very long days, lots of times, you know, 12 hours. And I would, we would go down to the to the main feeding site, and we were the suppliers for all the other sites that are around the perimeter, little small tents that we had set up, so that workers could, you know, get socks if they need them—many things, many, many things we had in those in those tents. And the chaplains were down there. So we would just keep feeding the people. Most of the people we fed were those who were working in the buildings in around that area, the cleaners, and some of the truckers would stop, and they’d hop in and grab a meal. And for me, I wanted that place to look clean. I wanted to be neat and tidy because to me that showed respect. We respected them for what they did, and it was amazing to just see the people. “Thank you for what they're doing.” They would thank you for what we were doing as a Salvation Army, and we've fed a lot of, a lot of, a lot of people.
Kristin Ostensen
There was no shortage of tasks for Major Lynn to do at Ground Zero. But some of the most meaningful moments came in the pauses—whether it was stopping to listen and pray for someone at the site, or to pay respect to a person who had lost their life in the tragedy.
Lynn Cummings
I was standing outside our tent one day, and there was a big burly gentleman standing there, and I just said, you know, “Hello. Can I get you some food?” They were always wanting Gatorade, of course, or the Red Bull drink to give them energy. And just this gentleman said, “No, I'm just taking a break.” He said, “I'm actually—that building over there is where I was. I was on the roof,” and he said, "I heard this loud noise, and I looked out of the corner of my eye, and I saw this plane.” And he thought, That plane shouldn't be that low. And, Where is that plane going? And as he watched the plane, of course, it went into the building. We probably shared together for a couple hours, him telling his story, you know, a strapping six-foot man, broad shouldered, tears running down his eyes, telling me his experience. And he still has to go back because he's trying to maintain that building, even though it was in that zone, right? But it wasn't damaged or anything. I felt privileged that he felt comfortable telling me his story, and I just simply said, "Do you mind if I pray with you and pray for you?” And right away, he said yes with his tears in his eyes. He said he wasn't a believer. He doesn't understand why this happened to so many people. So that moment stood out with me. I still have his face pictured in my mind. And then, I guess the moment that stands out the most is, once again, I was down at one of the smaller sites, and there was a horn that blew. And when that horn blew, that meant that they found a body, no matter what that looked like. And so we made our way—all the vehicles stopped. All the diggers stopped. Everyone got out. And we formed almost a line. And we could see the body bag. We could see kind of what they were putting there, and we stood as an honour as they brought that down off the pile of debris. It was such a sacred moment. Like, you could hear a pin drop. And I looked down, and there was a fork, and it was twisted. And once again, I wondered who the last person was that used that fork, or where that person was that used that fork. But that moment for me, it was a very sacred moment. I felt so honoured and so privileged to pay respects to that person. And the respect that everybody showed, even, you know, when that was put on the stretcher in the back of an ambulance, and the way the motorcycles escorted that ambulance to the morgue was just—it was so sacred. There's no other word to describe it.
Kristin Ostensen
Over in British Columbia, John McEwan has the distinction of being part of the Army’s response to 9/11 at the very beginning and the very end. On the day of the attack, he was deployed to the Vancouver airport, YVR, to provide food to the grounded passengers. And in May 2002, he was the incident commander at Ground Zero, leading the last group of Salvation Army volunteers when the Army’s response concluded as recovery operations at the site officially ceased. John begins by telling us a bit about the response in Vancouver on September 11.
John McEwan
So there wasn't another person that would fit inside of the YVR at that time. It was a little bit smaller than it is now. So, they were putting people standing in the sunlight in the afternoon in the YVR parking lot, and our role was to feed them. So, we fed them off of our brand-new trucks that we had, our EDS trucks. They had hardly been used, and we were pumping grilled cheese sandwiches and cold drinks. Well, the problem was, if it's 33 degrees—or whatever it was—30 degrees on a hot day, probably the last thing you want is a hot grilled cheese sandwich. We ended up switching tactics after a few hours, and we went to more, like, a snack that was packaged, right? And a cold drink, granola bars, that sort of stuff. But that was all day into the evening until they could get all those people dissipated back into the building, right? Because no planes were flying, so they had to figure out what to do with them all.
Kristin Ostensen
Arriving at Ground Zero in mid-May the following year, John was in charge of the Taj Mahal—a nickname given to the Army’s response centre at the site. During his two weeks of deployment, he was on site every day from 6 am to 6 pm, overseeing a team of 60 volunteers.
John McEwan
The Taj Mahal was a big—I want to say circus tent, but it was a block-style tent that covered half of a city block. OK, it was actually, the floor was pavement, right? So it was a large tent. It was right across the street from the site, right? “The Pit” they called it, right? So construction workers would come in for lunch and coffee breaks and stuff, and there, actually a part of the building that they'd have to have a shower, so they couldn't wear contaminated clothes inside the area where they were going to eat. So there were lockers; they'd have to walk in one door, and the building, by the way, was airtight, so in other words, it was a positive airflow. So there was blowers in there that were pushing the air outwards to keep the contaminated air out of the building where we were serving meals. The food coming in had to be test tested. Short little story: All of the restaurants around the area that were devastated because of the fact that they couldn't serve, there was no customers anymore, right? Or the business was shut down. So, The Salvation Army contacted them and said, if you can deliver hot food to the back door, it would be tested and inspected, and we could use it to serve all of the people inside the Taj Mahal. So, that was kind of nice. I thought that was a cool thing because the Army was utilizing people who had lost their business.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, right.
John McEwan
There was really good food, lots of different types of food, 10 or 11 different courses. There was food there all night long, all day long, never stopped.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah. And were there any other things that you were doing as part of your duties there?
John McEwan
Oh, there were many things, actually. Somebody's doing the garbage. Somebody's refilling all the pop machines—and believe me, like, there was a whole row of free drink machines. All those had to be refilled. Garbage, cleaning tables. There was a whole section where a person could walk over and get new boots, or they could get gloves, all that sort of stuff. They could actually sit in a lazy-boy chair for half an hour and just lay back and relax and almost fall asleep. There was a whole area there, sort of a rest area, respite area that they could use as well.
Kristin Ostensen
On May 30, 2002, the cleanup and recovery efforts at Ground Zero officially ended, with a sombre ceremony attended by thousands. The Salvation Army took part in the ceremony, and John was on hand to pass out water to people who were in attendance.
John McEwan
One of my roles was to pass out water, cold, ice-cold water, to people who were walking by on the street that were presumably going to be attending the service. It was a really hot day, and Dave Moulton and I were just, we were tasked to do that, just to hand out water to anyone that needed, which is significant in itself from a biblical point of view, right? But just the idea that people are attending things, and here we are as a Salvation Army, just there as a service to them, which is a ministry in itself. And we've just learned as EDS people, just, “Here, have a water.” You know, “What's the cost of this?” “No, no, no, no. This is all free, and we're just giving it out.” It’s sort of who we are.
Kristin Ostensen
The last meal served at the Taj Mahal was dinner at 5 p.m. on May 30. During the response period, The Salvation Army served more than 3.2 million meals, along with providing items such as boots and gas masks. But perhaps the greatest service the Army provided was simply being there, as Major Lynn shares.
Lynn Cummings
I think within The Salvation Army, our presence speaks volumes. And like, go back to my comment about us being on an American Airline plane flying down to New York, and a lady saying, “Oh, we're going to be OK. The Salvation Army's here.” You go, "Wow, that's a lot of pressure put on us,” right? But that isn't what she meant. I think we brought a sense of peace and comfort, and that can only come through, I believe, my calling as a pastor, as a minister, as an officer of The Salvation Army, in order to display that, you know, to people. Sometimes God can show up in silence, and through other people, and it's not like we have to be front and centre and be out there. I just think our presence, the shield, you know, the branding, and just giving that listening ear to people, and them realizing that we genuinely, we care. We care about them. We care about their well-being. There's a Scripture verse that I have actually, it really speaks about God's presence and, you know, strength that it gave me in those days that I was there, and it's simply: “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble. Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the hearts of the sea.” And that's taken from Psalm. God was our refuge. God was my refuge. And I mean that was back—you couldn't even, you didn't have cell phones then. You had to line up at this little generator thing and try and make a phone call home. So yeah, God just protected me. He was with me.
Kristin Ostensen
The response to 9/11 in Gander is well known, thanks in part to the hit musical, Come From Away. As the mayor of Gander at that time, Claude is one of the leading roles in the production. And he’s often asked to come and speak to people around the world about what happened and what we all can learn from Gander’s response.
Claude Elliott
One of the questions I was asked, been asked quite a bit around, "How did you keep your composure?” And I said, "Well, we look at it like a death in the family. Anytime there's a death in the family, there's always one person in the family that can carry the family through it.” And I said, “We had 7,000 people. They needed our shoulders to cry on, and we were there for them so they could cry on our shoulders, and we’d be there to guide them through it.” We cried after they were gone, not while they were here, because they didn't need that. They needed us to be strong and to help them through a very difficult time. Just because we disagree on things, and just because we don't go to the same church or don't vote the same politically, that doesn't mean we can't be good to people and be generous. And that's what we got to do, regardless, you know. And I think that if we weren't kind to people, I think God would be disappointed with us. You got to help people, you know, and regardless. And we did that, and we had a great time doing it.
Kristin Ostensen
Both on the day of 9/11, within minutes of the attacks, and in the months that followed, thousands of Salvation Army volunteers stepped up—in New York, Gander, Vancouver, and around the world. Twenty-five years later, we remember them and say thank you.
John McEwan
When I tell parts of this story to anyone, I say my tag number was 9225, as a Salvation Army volunteer.
Kristin Ostensen
Wow.
John McEwan
So that means I was one of at least 9,000 people who responded on behalf of The Salvation Army, which is kind of cool in itself, right?
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah.
John McEwan
People came from at least all over North America to be a part of that, and I can look back and say, yeah, I was there and I was able to help people, in most EDS situations are there and are hurting because through no fault of their own, right? So, we have a responsibility, in my opinion, to go and help them out in whatever way we can.
Kristin Ostensen
Thanks for joining us for this special commemorative edition of the Salvationist podcast. You can find links to more coverage of the 25th anniversary of 9/11 in the show notes, including an extended Q&A with Claude Elliott. For more episodes of the podcast, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.