Karen Pollock

In this episode, Dr Peter Blundell interviews Karen Pollock about their life and work.

Karren's initial training was person-centred, but they have expanded their training since then to cover a variety of topics, such as domestic abuse including coercive control, child abuse, bereavement and working online. Karren graduated with a Post Graduate Diploma in Gender, Sexual and Relationship diversity in 2019 which is one of the few courses in the world to cover this area in-depth. Karren is also an Advanced Accredited Gender, Sex and Relationship Diversities Therapist as awarded by Pink Therapy. For more details about their practice take a look at their website - Counselling in Northumberland – Online and In-Person Counselling and Psychotherapy.

Karen's Details
Twitter: @CounsellingKaz

Peter's Contact Details
Twitter: @drpeterblundell
Instagram: @drpeterblundell
Website: www.peterblundell.com

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Opening: 0:01

This episode of TherapistsConnect podcast is sponsored by WebHealer. The number one website provider for private practice therapists serving the community for 20 years. WebHealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website, a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice, WebHealer can help. Contact WebHealer today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon "TherapistsConnect" for 100 pounds off their do it for me service. Welcome to the TherapistsConnect Podcast, a podcast for therapists, by therapists.

Peter Blundell: 0:51

Welcome to the TherapistsConnect Podcast. My name is Dr. Peter Blundell, and today I'm back interviewing therapists about their life and work in the counseling and psychotherapy profession. In this interview, I'll be speaking to Person Centered therapist Karen Pollock. They are also a supervisor and a trainer who approaches things from an anti-oppressive stance. They have a particular interest in gender, sexuality, and relationship diversity. And they can be found on twitter under the Twitter handle CounsellingKaz, that's Kaz, K-A-Z.

Karen Pollock: 1:24

Thank--thank you for inviting me to come on.

Peter Blundell: 1:26

You're very welcome. This is a question I ask absolutely everybody who comes on the podcast, which is possibly a good starting point. Just wondering, how did you come to be a therapist? What was it that drew you to this profession in the first place?

Karen Pollock: 1:42

I think like a lot of people, I'd had really positive experiences of my own personal therapy. In fact, I think I'm quite old fashioned on this. I'm quite strong believer that you must have had it quite a deep dive into personal therapy before you even start; not on the idea that we're fixed or we're better, but to know, to know what it is that you're getting into. The--one of the other reasons is terribly shallow, but... I was looking for a night class because I felt my brain was... drying up and in between sort of Spanish photography, ooh! Introduction to counseling skills. That was what level one was called. And I just thought it sounded interesting. It was a 10 week course; it was really... really odd in some ways, it was some sixth formers were doing it, sort of a real mix of people. And I loved it from the--one of the things I loved was doing the weekly journal. It was doing a process journal, just like, whoa, I've actually found that doing a clear-out last summer because I was on lock-down. What do you do except take on stuff, like, what, we take a break? And it was just, you could see it was just like, all so new to me. Yeah. So enjoying doing that and positive experience of personal therapy and then sitting down and go: "Do I actually want to be a key stage one teacher, which is my previous career?" And thinking, "no, Ofsted want me to do 60 learning points for four year olds. I don't, I don't believe anymore in what I'm being asked to do. So it was like, 'okay, let's do the big scary thing of changing my career in my 40s.'"

Peter Blundell: 3:45

I just really, I find that's really interesting. So it's like a career shift for you. But also kind of lots of other influences there as well. Yeah. It really resonated with me when you were talking about the 10 week introduction to counseling concepts, because that's, that was my first experiences of counseling training. And I absolutely loved doing, doing that, that course. And very similar to what you were saying there, kind of the different people who were on it and kind of everyone came from different backgrounds and kind of just it was all new to everybody. And just sharing that experience for 10 weeks was... I've got some special memories of doing that, really.

Karen Pollock: 4:24

I can still picture everyone in the room, and I'm the tutor who was also a tutor for level two and level three... was just, they loved taking people on those first steps. Yeah. You could really tell. And, yeah, they're very, very happy memories of doing that.

Peter Blundell: 4:45

I think there's something special about those first introductions to counseling and psychotherapy and very similar, my tutor as well--was just so passionate about doing that course because they loved seeing people kind of be introduced to all of those ideas and self awareness and the journaling and all of that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's, it's lovely. So you, so you did do--you completed that course. And obviously you continued on to qualify as a, as a counselor. Can you tell us a little bit about your career so far as a, as a therapist?

Karen Pollock: 5:22

Yeah. So I continued on with that, and then I looked locally at the, you know, what was available, and I was really lucky that one of the FE colleges did the two year PG det. And it is a very well respected course locally. It'll--probably any students listen to this will hate me; see if I say that the placement providers used to come in and pitch to us to go and be students at them, rather than us having to find placements.

Peter Blundell: 5:56

I'm laughing because I just don't hear of that. That's amazing.

Karen Pollock: 6:01

Yeah. And the other reason I really chose it is it did a whole unit and on abuse, and I, I already thought maybe that was an area I wanted to go into. But like a lot of people, I think, thought "How do I deal with trauma? What do I do?" And that was actually done as one of the core modules. So kind of went into that thinking, you know, maybe I'd like to go into rape crisis, or possibly private practice, but probably working with survivors of abuse. As much as I planned it, you know. But during--during the course of that, because of the things I was blogging about, because of what I was saying on social media, finding that people from gender and sexuality, minorities, and then relationship diversity sort of later on, were contacting me saying, "Will you be my counselor," and I'm like, "I'm not qualified, mate, I can't do that." "But you're a counselor and I've never heard a counselor talk about trans rights or queer, and their experiences of this, that and the other." And I'm not that keen on the word"niche," because I think it suggests to me, it's squishing, and we shouldn't. But I like the word "speciality." And people were approaching me snd it kind of made me realize, "okay, this trauma, it's there." Obviously, some people will have experienced abuse, but the community seems to be saying to me that they need counselors who also know about all this other stuff through lived experience, through reading, through writing, and so I ended up in private practice with pretty much specializing in gender, sexuality, and relationship diversity. So then, because part of me is just like, "yeah, potentially train. Why don't you?" I thought "okay, well, this isn't where I thought I'd end up; how do I get some specialist training? Because right now, I'm just going with gut feelings and experience around the GSRD (gender, sexuality, race, and relationship) experience." So then I did the two year Pink Therapy, postgraduate diploma in gender, sexuality and relationship, diverse therapy. And it just expanded on from there.

Peter Blundell: 8:38

That's really interesting. It sounds like such a, I suppose an evolution, maybe that's not the right word. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And your practice, and almost it, yeah, it kind of evolved naturally over, over, over time.

Karen Pollock: 8:53

And I will say that just because you think,"Oh, I'll start working with this group or these particular issues." That might not be the clients who seek you out. And I've done my supervision training this year, and, you know, starting with supervisees, and that I think, that openness to "you might not end up where you think you will, but it might be the right place for you to be practicing." If we're too rigid... People sometimes say that the clients choose a therapist through the smile, and apparently there's some research on that. I'm slightly suspicious of that. I think, probably clients don't know why they choose a particular therapist, and they want to say, "oh its that photograph," ??? but know something about that person drew you in. Yeah. And we can't always draw neat lines around what that something would be.

Peter Blundell: 9:50

Yeah. I really like that. I think there is definitely something in that and just from my own experience that, yeah, I think people are drawn to each other for lots and lots of different reasons. And we can't always say, 'Oh, it's this or it's that." It's, you know, there's, there's something going on there. And it's really interesting that you kind of see that from clients, but almost your specialism happens because of the clients sort of being attracted towards your practice. You know, that's really interesting, changing the topic slightly less, but I suppose but how would you define your therapeutic approach, like how your practice and how you work has that changed over time?

Karen Pollock: 10:32

So by original PGD, was person centered, but it was a very interesting course and they did psychodynamic, CBT, and person centered, and we had to, we had to do other assignments from our own modality, but go to all the lectures and everything from everyone else's. But I don't think I'm pluralistic. I think more and more, I'm becoming more person centered over time, not. I recognize not here, but I honestly, there's something that I call modern person centered. So if I feel and I own, and I completely stand on, I'm going to suggest a blog or a bit of psychoeducation. And take that template is coming from me, I feel that's person centered, not pluralistic or integrative, even though I know more traditional person said, suggesting a blog, directive. No, because it's about centering on the needs of the client and using your own awareness of what's going on for you and bringing it just as you say, you know, "when you say that, I can feel anger inside myself, or, you know, when you say what happened to you, I can feel sadness." Well, if that's pure person centered, why is it when you talk about asexuality,"I'm wondering if you've seen a web site called Avon, because I think you might find something useful there." I'm not really sure that steps out of person centered, person centered works. And I just believe that.

Peter Blundell: 12:22

I think I find it really interesting that you trained person centered, but then these other things, which some people might not considered person centered, but you feel like you've almost become more person centered, as, as time's gone on. So I find that really, really interesting.

Karen Pollock: 12:38

I think, I, I've seen seen the glory of video. I mean, you must have also seen it probably far too many times. I can't believe Rogers--that he's so warm in that. Can't believe he just sat there reflecting and summarizing with all of his clients, there will have been more because he's, he's too human. And I think we almost ritualized what was meant to be a lot more real than just, here's my summary. Here's my reflection, look at me empathize. That was quite

Peter Blundell: 13:16

But also, it's that I always think about it, dismissive. that term of genuineness, like being authentic, like, you know, there is different aspects of ourselves that we bring into the therapeutic relationship, and we're mindful about what we bring in, you know, but, but it's got to be authentic, hasn't it? You know, if you're just if you're just like a robot, you know, reflected back or just nodding constantly, you know.

Karen Pollock: 13:40

With the head tilt. Yeah, with the head tilt.

Peter Blundell: 13:45

It's, you know, there's some of that, but if that's all you do, then yeah, it does. I, I don't think someone feels like a real person, almost, you know.

Karen Pollock: 13:55

Connection happens between two human beings.

Peter Blundell: 13:59

Yeah. Yeah. And all the messiness that goes along with that. Oh, yes. Thinking about connection. Because we're on the TherapistsConnect podcast. I was, I was wondering, how do you see the wider therapy community? How connected do you feel to other therapists or the wider community?

Karen Pollock: 14:23

There are different levels of connection. Definitely feel very connected to the Pink Therapy community. Really miss and didn't realize how much it was a part of my year, the year, the conference in London. It is sort of part conference part convention, part reunion. Yeah. I think a lot of people who work--therapists and private practice with very solitary lives. Yeah. And we'd all... there's this lovely moment afterwards where it's quite usual for a whole bunch of us to go to the pub and just have a pint as if to say, Yeah, you know we're a community and definitely, definitely felt... well, still feel connected to that, but I'm missing the in-person, obviously the wider community, different connections and different levels. There's some people I love reading or interacting with, some people I feel very far away from but I think that's okay, because their experience is so very different to mine. You know? I am a queer person, I am a queer therapist, I'm not going to fit in with a lot of the 2.4 ______, and how do I navigate all these different things. But there are plenty of people who do connect with that. And then maybe this smaller circle of people with me over here. So that's not us. But there are some of us who connect together.

Peter Blundell: 16:11

This, there's something about that when you talk, I was thinking about the importance of finding those connections or community or whatever it is that was right for us, you know, yeah. And when you were talking, I was thinking that there's so many different communities out now as therapists, which is quite amazing. Really, I think there's sometimes what I think about it, but just how it was important to you to find, I say your people almost budgeting in all the people that you connect with the, you know, the most as therapists.

Karen Pollock: 16:45

I think we have to be very careful using words like "tribe," because you know, that they have racial overtones in cultural appropriation. But there are different therapeutic tribes for definite and finding the right one, and the one that you fit in. Is, it's so important, just to notice yourself.

Peter Blundell: 17:12

I definitely think there's something in that. I suppose one thing that I found is, actually sometimes I get different things from different communities. You know. Yeah.

Karen Pollock: 17:21

I think that's what I miss. That's what I miss. Because of the pandemic, I was planning it before this happened to see if I could get to go a little sort of Northeast in person coffee meetup or something, not not career orientated, just, you know, counselors in the northeast, let's meet once a month for coffee. Because I think you do need different communities to go to for different stuff. And then much more casual, let's just, you know, see what each other we're doing. And is anyone going to like this training day or, you know, heard about this would have been quite nice, and that mate-y, kind of community isn't easy to find, though, at least maybe, possibly in the big cities easier to find? Yeah.

Peter Blundell: 18:16

I think there's definitely something in that in terms of where you're located, how difficult it can be to find some of those in person communities. And I think I've really valued some of the online communities there. But there is a difference isn't there from as you say, being able to sit in the pub or a cafe with somebody and have coffee or whatever and, and have a chat, relax, chat, it's different from having a Zoom meeting, or whatever it is.

Karen Pollock: 18:42

A couple of the Facebook groups are lovely for that. That casual, kind of fun to in church, but sometimes we, or least I should say, I shouldn't speak for anyone else. I think it would be nice to have smaller groups where you either spend a little bit more time together. But as you said, I'm sure in bigger cities, that's much more common.

Peter Blundell: 19:11

I mean, just talking about the idea of private practice, you know, there's so many therapists have connected, contacted me in terms of talking about loneliness actually being in private practice and not having those in person communities and I think, almost feel like it's even more difficult now. Because of the pandemic, to actually find, not only find those communities, but you know, have them and make, you know, make them happen and for people to come along. It's yeah, I think that's quite challenging, I think for a lot of people.

Karen Pollock: 19:43

And I think in some ways, I was quite lucky because I left teaching and I was self employed doing like various projects and things I did. I did music schemes for young children. So before, before I actually went into private practice, I was quite used to being self employed. And I know in this business comes directly from Facebook, because a lot of people don't really consider that what they're doing is starting their own business and being self employed. And then it hits them. Because they've been used to going into work each day, there's the staff room or the, you know, wherever they mix, the water cooler, and they lose everything at a really stressful time when they're trying to launch a business. Yeah. I didn't realize how lucky I was, I'd already kind of done that.

Peter Blundell: 20:43

Yeah. But I think it's probably that disconnect, sometimes in terms of this desire to work in private practice, and think about all the benefits of what it might be like, but then also, maybe some people forget the potential downsides to that, which is, you know, you don't have those colleagues and peers that you can chat to and work, you know, and it's maybe more lonely than people possibly expect it to be.

Karen Pollock: 21:07

Yeah. I think it would help an awful lot of people if on their original training, you know, a tutor sat down, almost as career development [and] said, "Do you want to be self employed? Or do you want to work for someone?" Because I just got the impression people haven't even considered. "Okay, which suits me? Which, which option actually is who I am in the world?"

Peter Blundell: 21:35

And I think that's really good advice. And I think you can't start thinking about that early enough. You know, that's your training and developing. Yeah, you might be thinking, "I've got to get to my placement. I've got to do this. I've got to do that." There's no reason why you can't start thinking about what kind of career, "what I like after I'm qualified." You know,

Karen Pollock: 21:55

It has huge influence in what type of placements you're looking for, or even where you study.

Peter Blundell: 22:05

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Take some thought and consideration, and there's so many different possible routes and types of placement and ways people can train that. To give it some consideration beforehand. Yeah, I do think, that's quite important, I think. Thinking about the profession, I suppose within the UK could or could be broader. What do you think is the kind of the biggest challenge that we're facing right now that we're, that we need to consider?

Karen Pollock: 22:42

I've got to choose just one? Well, I know.

Peter Blundell: 22:47

They're all, you can have, you can have more than one if you want.

Karen Pollock: 22:50

They're all kind of interlinked. I think we need to professionalize, as in be a profession in the technical sense, because we're not--which means we need to be like teaching, nursing, medicine. A title that you can only take if you have a certain level of qualification. But at the same time, we have a huge problem with: we are far too white, we far too middle class, we are far to cis--the biggest problem is how to square that circle. We need to attract far more people in. I'm, I'm a working class person from Benwell--sort of luck as much as anything. And it was an awful lot of privileges. So there aren't many other people that have got up out of Benwell that I did, you can say today that you know there was a therapist with it, a full private practice. We can't just keep saying, "Oh, well, we need to attract different people." And if they're not coming, there's a reason. But that, I, I suspect that some of the reforms that have been done previously, especially when they--who can offer training, what counts as accredited training with done, look, we are widening. And I don't think that was the solution. I just think it meant it's even harder for us now to be heard by people like the NHS. You know, on average, the NHS is saying they want a level seven to work for them. And people at level four told you're qualified to work with people with three level dap. Yeah, I actually think, and this probably is controversial, the mistake was made years ago when nursing became a D degree subject, counseling should have gone"yeah, that looks like a good idea." And gone the same route that other professions did of"how do we attract more working class? More BME, more LGBTQ students into our courses?" And instead, they just keep saying"send us the same problem" and then not changing it.

Peter Blundell: 25:35

And I mean, I, I definitely agree that we keep saying there's the same problem. And if we're not changing it, I think we have different views in terms of how how we go about that, which I think is fine. But I suppose what you're talking about there is is a, you think maybe professionalizing would help the profession, and also then maybe give us opportunities to increase the diversity of people coming into training, if by, by focusing on recruiting those those people to those programs? Yeah.

Karen Pollock: 26:13

I think so. You see, most of the objections to professionalization that I hear from people, "but we're already so white, middle class, cis," and I get that. But I don't think that should mean we shouldn't professionalize more, I think that means we should try harder to work out why those groups aren't coming into the profession. It's, it's, it's not okay to say we can't do something because this thing that is happening now will continue to happen, or, because that's not fixing it. Yeah. But--

Peter Blundell: 26:52

I suppose to me, the key bit is what do we mean by professionalization, you know, and how that--

Karen Pollock: 26:57

I'm not skilled. But we do need higher standards, we need far higher standards in when need to have mandatory training in trauma, as far as I'm concerned, and abuse before... You, you cannot be working with someone and hear the sort of things that we will both have heard said to victims of child sex abuse and rape. We need mandatory work with minorities, people have to work on themselves and racism, transphobia, homophobia, biphobia. And those are nice for the additional extras, although we did a human development day, you know.

Peter Blundell: 27:46

And that is something I completely agree with--that type of training should be throughout all training, you know, that happens to counseling and psychotherapy. And I think I would agree with that, in terms of, if that's what you mean by professionalization is actually there is there is certain things that aren't should be not optional, you know.

Karen Pollock: 28:09

This standard of what you should have covered before you get a certificate saying "yes, you're a counselor," needs to be way. I mean, the only objection I have to be masters level, and I think masters level should exist is, I think, from a class basis, some people are intimidated, which is why it breaks my heart that there aren't as many FE colleges offering the kind of course I did. Now, because FE has just been decimated. And I actually think if there were more of those old fashioned--remember, they used to cost a couple of 100 pounds as well. You know, the PG dip(ploma) when I started it, I think was 350 pounds. Yeah. If there were more of those, you would get more non-white students, you'd get more working class students, because it's the local tech, not the big scary university doing a master's. I think there's a place for both. And I think both should have equally stringent measures. But...

Peter Blundell: 29:15

But they're just... and I would agree with that. And I think what we're talking about is the topics that are covered on those programs. The academic assessment may be different, you know, in terms of the....

Karen Pollock: 29:28

Mine was very vocational, which I loved. It was an old fashioned FE course.

Peter Blundell: 29:34

Yeah, absolutely. And how that can be, can be. Well, I think that'd be very valuable in terms of developing therapists and how if we just focus on the academic side, but actually, it loses so, it just loses so, so much. And yeah, so I think I think maybe actually, we do agree there more by the way, than I originally thought from our initial discussion.

Karen Pollock: 29:59

Yeah, remember what I said about the doing it, making it into a degree was, you know, when, when nursing did it, which was the project 2000. I know about this family member of nurses that, that ship has sailed horses bolted lazy metaphor, whatever you want. I just think a mistake was made way back when other vocations like nursing, but how do we move this forward? How do we get more respect?

Peter Blundell: 30:26

And my, my worry with that Karen is that is that who has the control and power over, over those things? You know, and which direction that they go in? And that--yeah--you know, with scope, or anything along those lines, is who's making those those decisions?

Karen Pollock: 30:44

Again, I wouldn't start from here we need, we need an equivalent of the Nursing Midwifery Council rather than three or four membership organizations having the power. You know... And, and I don't know enough of the history, I don't know how that something like that got formed. But it there's too much jockeying for power at the moment. You know, which organization gets heard by government, which organization gets to meet the rules, that, I don't see how that benefits us or clients. I've joked sometimes that they'll take the title of psychotherapist out of my cold dead hands, because I didn't study nature for nothing. But it's--how are they going to define these things that really are about whose voice has been listened to in the moment. Probably my first degree was Philosophy, Logic and Scientific Method at the LSE. You know, if you're studying Hegel, you studying Nietzsche, you're studying Schoppenhauer, you're studying the people that Freud and Jung learnt from. Scope are just tools lines where lines don't exist. And I don't claim that they make me a psychotherapist, its just... I'd be willing to take them to court if they tried to stop me.

Peter Blundell: 32:08

That is a really big problem, if any of the terms are taken as, as, or changed, or, you know, forcing people to, to use or not use certain titles. Again, it's, it's so problematic, because there was so many different people who use and interpret those in so many different ways. How can one or a group of organizations take control of that, really?

Karen Pollock: 32:38

I think what we just need to do is make sure that there are minimum, and I don't mean minimum, there as low, but actually quite high above minimum standards that says, "You are safe to work with vulnerable human beings who are hurting, you will not cause harm," and picked up some courses do... well known names. Some courses are doing that quite well. But until they all that, that has to be fixed.

Peter Blundell: 33:13

And that--I agree with that. And I also think that's what the focus should be in terms of thinking about--

Karen Pollock: 33:21

Not what title people have. You can see people with supervision and not because if everybody was leaving, safe to work, yeah. Then call yourself call yourself a, chakra guide, if you want to, I don't really care. You're not going to hurt people.

Peter Blundell: 33:40

So my kind of last question, I want us to come into the last question. You've mentioned your work around gender, sexuality, and relationship diversity. Also, I don't know whether you would use this label actually, but I see you as a bit of an activist as well, in terms of, in terms in terms of that. I'm just wondering, particularly on social media, when you mentioned before, like writing blogs and things like that, I just wondered what kind of impact that had on you, you know, doing that kind of work

Karen Pollock: 34:12

Oh, it's been a... it's been interesting. I mean, it's, it, I don't really sit comfortably with the term activist as an identit. And there's a lot of complex stuff around that, that. I think it's quite an unnerving term. Because we "oh, they're activist so we don't need to listen to them." So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's... but also I just think this is what be decent human beings about, you know, if, if good people do nothing in the face of evil and harm then evil and harm grows. I was already quite vocal, especially about LGBTQ rights before, before I qualified and... I kind of noticed, especially when I first started, that very few people gave opinions in the way I did, I tried to educate in the way I didn't a lot of my social media works, but trying to educate so where does the term cis come from? Or what is conversion therapy or things like that. And I realized it's because it's seen as small p, maybe even big P political by people. I'm very strongly anti oppressive, we can't.... We can't say we want best or self actualization or whatever you want to use for our clients in the room and then say, Abbott, you can get the shit out there. That's, that's not my problem. I don't, I don't feel comfortable with you see me for 50 minutes, and I'm going to just leave the world as being pretty terrible to you, because that's not my job. I actually think if we, if we're going to live by the codes of conduct, or the regulatory bodies put out there, then we have to try and make the world a better place in terms of impact. Negative or positive. Positives, met wonderful people like you; negative. I must have one of the longest block lists on Twitter... Mumsnet for a couple of months. And they aren't speculating anymore on whether I'm a trans woman, which was a fun bit of Mumsnet to go into apparently you could see my masculine jawline, which, which is very amusing.

Peter Blundell: 36:50

I think that's almost I suppose why I see you as an activist because I do see... see, put yourself out there. And I know you don't relate to that term, but there is a lot of work. And there is a lot of risks to that, you know, and that's that's why I was interested in the impact on you because, you know, a lot of techno a lot of people might not see some of that aspect of something that goes on.

Karen Pollock: 37:25

But I think if anyone was thinking of taking the baton, please do. I came into this already for different, different aspects of my life, different identities, being very familiar with how horrific. Being dark, social media, they will, you have to be prepared for the absolute worst--self care has to come first. No. No cause is ever helped by having another another victim along the way. Now this Mumsnet stuff and things just amuses me. Especially because they pretty much were convinced I was a trans woman for ages. So it's just really sad, because I can't imagine someone not showing an identity but caring. And that's the saddest things I could ever imagine. You know, today, one of the defining moments of my teen years, this shows my age, was the video from Ethiopia that launched Band Aid is... and I can remember this, it made me realize the world was very big, and we had to do something. I'm not even getting into politics where they did the right thing I was what 13, 12. Would they really watch and that not be sobbing at the end? Because I don't know those people. So I don't care.

Peter Blundell: 38:59

I feel like what you're saying is it's all it's it's always been part of you, you know, and it's part of who you are. So that's why you don't identify with that label of activist because I think so, yeah. It's you. And it's what you care about.

Karen Pollock: 39:15

If other people do you know, I get it. And sometimes I think having an identity, it goes back to community that we can be activists together and that, that's really important. Just if people are gonna step up, do it understanding that you need to be able to switch off and log off and turn away. You know, you rarely see me on Twitter of an evening because that that's my downtime, my family time. My..."can I go and kill things on the Xbox time." You got to have really strong boundaries because it'll overwhelm you otherwise.

Peter Blundell: 39:54

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Karen I've absolutely loved this chat. I really have. It's been it's been really lovely and just to get to know you a little bit better as well, but it's been lovely. Wonderful. I do hope you get to Liverpool and we can we can go out like coffee or drink... What are you doing in 2023, shall we put something down? (laughter) Oh, thank you so much. And yeah, thanks so much for being on the therapists Connect podcast.

Karen Pollock: 40:32

Thank you for inviting me. It's been a wonderful conversation.

Opening: 40:35

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