Kim Evans

Dr Peter Blundell interviews Kim Evans. 
Kim is a Person-Centred Psychotherapist, Research Supervisor and Coach.

Her company Kaemotherapy training and consultancy helps therapists to explore race in their therapeutic work and better support a racially diverse range of clients.

She also specialises in public speaking and visibility coaching for therapists from racialised communities, who want to share their innovative knowledge and build successful businesses. She helps them overcome lack of confidence and master their message by giving them to blueprint to her success through her Game Changer Academy courses.

 Kim's Contact Details

@kaemotherapy

Or email admin@kaemotherapy.com to find out more! 

P.s. You can drop her an email if you'd like to join her free Facebook community of Game Changers.

Peter's Contact Details
Twitter: @drpeterblundell
Instagram: @drpeterblundell
Website: www.peterblundell.com

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Opening: 0:01

This episode of Therapists' Connect podcast is sponsored by Webhealer, the number one website provider for private practice therapists. Serving the community for 20 years, Webhealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website, a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice Webhealer can help. Contact Webhealer today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon "TherapistsConnect" for£100 off their 'do it for me' service. Welcome to the Therapists Connect Podcast; a podcast for therapists by therapists.

Peter Blundell: 0:52

Hello and welcome to this episode of The Therapists Connect Podcast. My name is Dr. Peter Blundell. And today I am absolutely delighted to be interviewing Kim Evans. Kim is Director of Kaemo Therapy Limited that's Kaemo, spelt 'K A E M O', which is a leading psychotherapeutic training and coaching service on race in therapy here in the UK. They support therapists and mental health organisations to develop practical skills to promote the growth of their business and thrive when working with racial diversity. Kim has completed her own research that examined the white/black therapeutic dyad and aimed to discover what the impact of colour-blindness is, in therapy on black clients. Kim has presented her research at the BACP Research Conference, and she's also done a presentation at the Therapists Connect Private Practice conference held in 2021. Today, I'm going to be asking Kim a little bit more about herself and her work. Hi...Hi Kim, how are you?

Kim Evans: 1:51

I'm good.

Peter Blundell: 1:52

Nice to see you.

Kim Evans: 1:53

Ah you too.

Peter Blundell: 1:56

I love this painting.

Kim Evans: 1:59

Thank you)

Peter Blundell: 2:00

It's great...

Kim Evans: 2:02

I actually, I bought it from one of my placements in Nottingham because they just had it in the corner. And I was like it's beautiful. Like why is it not up? So I asked the director if I could have it? And he was like, oh, what would you pay for? I was like 20 pounds so there was no like...

Peter Blundell: 2:17

That's fantastic. (It's mine now - KE) It's beautiful. It's so colorful. So I know we have chatted before. And we've, we've met a couple of times, actually. But I don't absolutely know kind of what drew you to being a therapist in the first place, kind of what what was it that brought you into the profession?

Kim Evans: 2:40

Well, I actually had a few sessions myself before, but it actually wasn't with a therapist, it was with my sister. I was trying to overcome a really difficult relationship, which was physically abusive at times and quite emotionally abusive. And I was only 19 at the time. And I was just kind of trying to get my head around what had happened. I was feeling a lot of shame around it and things like that... I'd never really experienced like violence from men or stuff like that in my history. Like all men to me, my dad's like the loveliest person, like so it for me, it was just really strange, like getting my head around those experiences. So my sister just had a Google of like, therapy, counselling questions and that kind of thing, and just gave me a safe space and helped me explore certain things. And what happened for me in those few moments, like, it was just so transformational. Like I was able to, like see things from a different perspective and kind of have a bit more self compassion. And I was like,'wow', imagine if I could do something like that for somebody else. And yeah, when I was looking at career directions, originally, I think it was like HR I wanted to do. And then I was like, actually, no, I want to help people more. So yeah, I used that experience to kind of inspire me, I guess, to look in that direction. And I haven't really looked back since really.

Peter Blundell: 4:00

Yeah. I mean, it's such a tough kind of life experience. But it sounds like you was kind of searching for answers or ways that you could help yourself. And then through that kind of (Yeah - KE) came to therapy as a possible career choice.

Kim Evans: 4:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah...definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think many people know that about me. I don't talk about it often. But it was really significant. And being the direction for me and making me think that yeah, this would be the thing I want to do. So yeah,

Peter Blundell: 4:27

It's quite amazing, and I think, isn't it like how many... speaking to lots of different therapists... how many therapists have kind of gone into the profession from like, a very personal (yeah) kind of experience, it's motivated them to kind of either change, or they've had a therapist that supported them to change. And then yeah, and then that's the outcome is training, training to be a therapist.

Kim Evans: 4:49

Yeah, yeah no, definitely. I think it makes sense because like otherwise therapies is kind of like abstract thing that you'd like hear people talk about, but I think it's like having your own experience... you then have a sense of, oh okay, this is what it is and how powerful it can actually be... Like until you experience it, like, it's hard to really fully know, do you know what I mean? Like, that's why I always encourage people, you know, just give it a try and see, you know, whether you like it, or whether it helps, because otherwise, it's hard to kind of really get a sense of what it can do and how it can help you.

Peter Blundell: 5:21

I mean, it's so personal, isn't it? So you try and explain your own experience of therapy to somebody else, you know, that might not resonate with them, you know, because it's your experience and so, going through it, you kind of have to go through it almost to understand how it could be beneficial for you.

Kim Evans: 5:37

Yeah, no, 100% Yeah, definitely.

Peter Blundell: 5:41

So, so that's kind of how you got into therapy in the first place. But um, can you tell us a little bit about your, your kind of career and the different things that you've been up to? Because I feel like you've been up to quite a lot?

Kim Evans: 5:55

Yeah, just a little bit. Well, I originally wanted to just do counselling, like to qualify as a counsellor. But then when I got married, we were struggling to find somewhere in London to live. And I'd just started a person-centered, like correspondence course, like the level 4 bit, so it was literally two years away from actually qualifying. And so we were like, Oh, my gosh, what can we do now? So we found a person-centered course in Nottingham. And that's where we decided to live, like, we just moved around where I was going to study next. So you know, yay, to my supportive husband, for just like moving around that decision. But it was amazing. And I'm so happy that I ended up doing psychotherapy instead, as well, because it was like so much more in depth. And I think the institute that I was with is a private institute as well. So it was just really like, I don't know, it just felt like a smaller group, more in depth, all person-centered stuff, like it was exactly what I wanted. And then I could get longer time studying in as well and get my accreditation at the same time. So it was like double the time I expected, but I'm glad I went through it. So four years after that, I then qualified as a person-centered psychotherapist, for the Masters, and I got my 450 hours as well. So that helped, I could then go straight into work and stuff. I moved back to London. And then I worked for myself a bit. So did some private work, and also worked with young people at Centrepoint, which is a, like a homeless charity. And then, I mean, the BACP presentation happened, which then was like a massive curveball. Because, yeah, I was interested in training, but I never really saw how that might come together. I always imagined I might be a tutor or down the line, you know, publish and then do some talks on what I' pdublished, but yeah, I presented my dissertation at the BACP conference, which was online. So loads more people got to see it than if it was like a normal conference. And yeah, from that I had a lot of demand of people wanting to meet to talk about race in therapy, and how to better support clients from different backgrounds, different racial backgrounds. So then I thought, okay, maybe I can convert this into a business because there's a demand there. And that's what I've been doing since really. So that's been quite exciting.

Peter Blundell: 8:20

I mean, it's fantastic. I think we'll talk about your research in a little bit. But did you see a shift then after you've presented at the BACP Research Conference, in terms of like your visibility and people contacting you and things like that?

Kim Evans: 8:32

Yeah, definitely. I was unknown. I was a little kid. Like, do you know what I mean? I really, no, I was just little old me. I guess, yeah, that definitely people were more in demand, wanted to have conversations and have questions answered, and do you do, you do training and then also, because they put my presentation on the BACP website, they've got a Race Resources page. So it's still there. So even till now, I do have people who've come across the presentation and, and you know, get to know the business that way. So I think that's definitely helped it being pinned up on the BACP website. And then yeah, from that time, people trying to get in touch as

Peter Blundell: 9:11

And it's brilliant. And that's where I well. first saw you kind of heard about you, doing that, doing that presentation. And then you've come in then you've done the Therapists Connect Private Practice conference, you did a presentation for that. What was that like for you, doing that?

Kim Evans: 9:28

I think it was lovely, because we... I don't remember if we were like in the middle of the pandemic, but we were kind of very separate, weren't we at that time? So, you know, just to see so many therapists faces and to connect with people. I'd pre recorded the presentation, and then just kind of heard the feedback, but it was just so lovely to like, even be in small groups, like just talk about how it has impacted people. But yeah, I think mainly just to connect with therapists again, because it had been such a long time. So it was lovely to do that. Yeah.

Peter Blundell: 9:58

I mean, that's great. Everyone loved the presentation. It was.. it went down really, really well. So and it was nice to kind of break off into groups and then a little bit and have some more of that kind of intimacy as opposed around talking about um those types of topics. Yeah. What have you got plans for your future career then in terms of what you're doing next? Because I feel like you've got a few different...

Kim Evans: 10:25

Yeah, I'm carrying on with the KAEMO training workshops. So I'm broadening out the team, we've got some more people to deliver the workshop, so it won't just be myself. So then we've got further reach as well. And then I'm moving...

Peter Blundell: 10:38

would you be able to, for the listeners, would you be able to kind of explain to me what those workshops involve?

Kim Evans: 10:43

Oh, yeah, definitely. So we do online workshops, usually, via zoom to like mental health organizations who have like a therapeutic group, or Counsellors, and Therapists and whatnot. So then we would have like about half a day, and we talked through, like, the client in context. So we look at society and racism, race, where that comes from, and then kind of shift towards looking at how to have actual conversations with people from minoritised communities. So we try and think about, you know, race as a construct, but as race, we are all included. Often we kind of focus on the minoritised individual, the black or black brown client, but it's about the relationship. So, you know, as a white therapist, what do I view myself as? Or what does being white mean here for this client? And how do we relate? How do we connect? And then kind of looking at phenomenological perspective, so just like meaning and thinking about, you know, how can I connect on a human level as well to this person? And those kinds of things. And yeah, it seems to be really eye-opening and like, powerful for people kind of like dismantling the, 'oh my gosh, this is such a scary topic' the aspect of race, I think it's just helped it become something I think people feel like, yeah, I can actually approach this, and they have the genuine intent to connect with different people. But it's just like, when it comes to race, in particular, it can be very awkward and quite scary to engage with. So just kind of breaking down that barrier really, and, you know, just having uncomfortable conversations, but saying, you know, it's okay, we can do this together. Yeah, I'm really encouraging in my approach, really, just to get people talking. And then, yeah, just encourage them that it's doable. It's possible. And people seem to have really taken to that. And it seems to have really helped them as well, with the therapeutic work, we try and do feedback, we'd come back to them and just have a sense of, you know, how's it been working and do some follow up consultancy as well. So that's a good way to just see what we're doing if it's effective or not, and it seems to be really effective.

Peter Blundell: 12:56

I mean, they sound fantastic. And I think it's that thing, isn't it of having uncomfortable conversations or feelings or whatever, but still having them, you know, and creating the space where that can happen. To, you know, make change happened, really, so they sound brilliant.

Kim Evans: 13:14

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So if anyone's interested, and they feel like it's something but then definitely get in touch.

Peter Blundell: 13:20

Yeah, we'll put all your details and the websites and everything on the podcast information, so people can get that as well.

Kim Evans: 13:26

Awesome, thank you.

Peter Blundell: 13:28

So I think I interrupted you, I think you were gonna mention something else...

Kim Evans: 13:31

Yeah (sorry - PB). No, it's fine. Like, yeah, definitely can't miss that. So what's happening next is I'm moving into consultancy, where I'll be supporting other therapists of colour who wants to develop their public speaking skills, or if they've got like a unique innovative message that they want to kind of put across in social media and presentations, podcasts, online courses, those kinds of thing. But they've been like, you know, stopped by imposter syndrome, or don't feel that they've got the public speaking skills. In another life before therapy, I did a lot of debating and like public speaking competitions from very small, like 14 years old. So I've done a lot of technical training around that. And then now it kind of just feels like second nature. So just to kind of pass on those skills, really, of how people can remain calm, speak more confidently, and you know, just feel like they can speak from an authentic place about what they're passionate about, so that they can help support and better the mental health industry, really, which I guess is a little bit of what I've done. So just to kind of help people to do something similar to what I've done, really.

Peter Blundell: 14:39

I mean, I think that's fantastic. It's so challenging, and I think for lots of different people, who've maybe got a message and they've got the knowledge or the understanding of something that they want to share. But then sometimes having the confidence of putting that out there somewhere, whether that's live speaking or you know, recording something. So actually being able to support people to kind of build that confidence up so that those voices can be heard, I think I mean, I think that's brilliant.

Kim Evans: 15:02

Yeah. No thank you. And I think like, in this day and age where, you know, social media is demanding more of us to actually put our physical selves out there, in that way, it's like that... that's the only way now, really, to some extent, to really have a greater reach. So, you know, having that confidence to do that, I think will really help so many people get out there.

Peter Blundell: 15:24

And it can feel like a very individual thing can't it, oh, I'm going out to public speak. But I suppose if you have a mentor or somebody(yeah - KE) supporting you with that, it might feel a bit less isolating.

Kim Evans: 15:34

Yeah, no, definitely, I don't want to just like, you know, have like a course, and then people go off. It's like, I want to be able to support people in groups. And I'm building a community, like a Facebook community where people can encourage each other and get feedback on where their development is, and things like that. So really, definitely, it's not gonna feel isolating at all. It's a whole community thing. And I'm calling it the Game Changers Tribe. So it's about you know, changing the industry changing the game, one talk at a time. So that's what I'm coordinating. So hopefully soon, you'll see more on that - still kind of in development. We've got some founding members. So yeah, hopefully be able to share some more of that soon.

Peter Blundell: 16:13

I mean, that sounds brilliant. And just tag us on Twitter, and all of that kind of thing. And we'll post everything.

Kim Evans: 16:19

No, I know you're hot on Twitter man! I appreciate that, and it's so good, because I think - did you guys start on Twitter as in Therapists Connect? (We did, yeah - PB) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Powerful.

Peter Blundell: 16:30

It is. Yeah, we, I mean, we built up and I think the pandemic had a lot to do with that as well, because we were kind of retweeting therapists stuff over that time, when a lot of people were kind of at home, and looking for some support, some community, I think, really, so that's kind of how we started, but well you know, anything to do with therapy, now we'll, we'll retreat, and we've got our volunteers doing that seven days a week. So...

Kim Evans: 16:53

I know, I just love how it's grown so much, like it's brilliant,

Peter Blundell: 16:58

It's a scary bit scary sometimes...

Kim Evans: 16:59

...like how did this happen? Yeah, but that's how powerful social media is. And I think that's why people you

Peter Blundell: 17:05

And I think it just shows that there was a need know, can gain the confidence to engage with it, like it can be so powerful, so impactful, and you can reach and support so many people. there as well. And that's what I was thinking about the work that you're doing as well, you know, I've no doubt that it will grow. Because I think the need is there. And I've had this conversation with other people kind of ... some of the things that therapists are doing like yourself who are moving away from like, the big organisations, are kind of doing stuff more independently. And kind of, there's a bit more creativity and freedom on offer sometimes, you know..

Kim Evans: 17:39

No, definitely, I mean, you can tell I'm very creative. So you Yeah, I mean, feeling kind of in a box within organisations, you're, you're moving with someone else's vision, if you know what I mean, or someone else's creative thoughts. And then I think, kind of the more goes down the line, the less creative license you have, if that makes sense, or to kind of live out your own passion. So yeah, that's what I feel really blessed to be able to do, really, and that can shift and change. But ultimately, like you said, I've got that creative license to do things in a way that feels right for me.

Peter Blundell: 18:14

And right for the people that you're supporting.

Kim Evans: 18:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Peter Blundell: 18:18

...got that freedom. And that's brilliant. This is just a short break to have a message from one of our sponsors, so please don't go anywhere. If you'd like to sponsor an episode of a Therapists Connect Podcast, send us an email for more details info@therapist-connect.com.

Opening: 18:35

This episode of Therapists Connect podcast is sponsored by Webhealer. The number one website provider for private practice therapists, serving the community for 20 years Webhealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website, a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice, Webhealer can help. Contact where people today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon Therapists Connect for 100 pounds off their 'do it for me' service.

Peter Blundell: 19:16

We hope you enjoy the rest of this episode. So you mentioned a little bit before that you trained in the person-centered approach. I'm just wondering how, how do you define your approach? Do you still still call yourself person-centered or?

Kim Evans: 19:33

Yeah, I do. I think because um like the person centered approach, I feel like it can encompass like so many different approaches, if that makes sense. Like within it. Like it is a huge school of thought and I think sometimes, you know people have only studied it like just as a module or just touched on it like they don't really have that understanding. So from my perspective, I do look at one the phenomenological perspective so looking at kind of Spinelli's work looking at Meane and those kinds of things. And I feel like that really supports the kind of like, intercultural aspects of my work. For me, from my own personal journey and finding my own voice and what that meant, and how that changed my world, my whole life, like being able to speak out and empowering other people, my clients, to do that as well. What does my voice sound like? What is my message? You know, what does it sound like to speak out? What does that mean? If my voice goes out there, how does that change my relationships and things around me, and those kinds of things. But then lastly, I'd say choice is something that is key to my approach as well, just helping people know, and connect with the choices that they have. Because as we know, linked to mental health distress, it's about powerlessness in lots of different areas, either because, you know, something traumatic happened to you or your situation, you don't feel like you have choices or power. So just helping them to, you know, identify them, develop them and, you know, feel more powerful as they move through things and through the relationship as well. So, that kind of undergirds what I do, um, is connected to the person-centered approach. So yeah,

Peter Blundell: 21:12

I mean, that's great. I love that. And it's like, almost like the, I suppose the pillars of what's your approach, like the key aspects of it, though, that you kind of laid in there, which I love. I think that's brilliant. So just thinking about maybe the wider therapy community, I suppose we've talked about that a little bit, in a way. I'm just wondering, how do you see the wider therapy community? And like, how connected do you feel to other other therapists...

Kim Evans: 21:39

It's difficult. Like, I feel, I feel disconnected if I'm being honest. I think through social media, like we talked about, I've been able to connect with some people. It just feels like everyone's like off doing their own stuff, if that makes sense. And really trying to like, you know, build their own businesses and do different things. So it's like coming together is hard. Like, I feel like I can make certain connections or talk to some people, have some projects done. But there's not like a, like a community that I feel part of, if that makes sense? And I think that's a shame, because I think we can really learn a lot, coming together, and things like that. Yeah, I think moving from training, there's just that disconnect. And I think that was also made, you know, more separateness made through the pandemic as well. There's less like in person CPD events that you might like, meet other therapists and connect that way. So yeah. It's just tricky. It's the times that we live in, I think we're just a bit more disconnected really.

Peter Blundell: 22:44

I think it's a really big challenge. And I think some people maybe came together over the pandemic, but I also get a sense that, that that's drifting a little bit now as people get back into (Yeah - KE), what life was going to be a little bit like before?

Kim Evans: 22:57

Yeah, yeah, no, very true. Yeah, I feel that as well. Yeah.

Peter Blundell: 23:01

I'm not sure. But it sounds like you're almost creating a bit of your own community, in terms of the work that you're that you're doing. Yeah, that's how it feels. But

Kim Evans: 23:11

yes, yeah. I mean, if there isn't one, create one. And obviously, like, I'm always dipping in and connecting with therapists connect as well. And then I think in terms of like having one that's like a safe space for like therapists of color to like, exclusively, I feel like that will be really powerful and really helpful. Just because, you know, when I talk to people similar to myself, where I'm in the minority, especially outside of London, like in our therapeutic groups, so just being able to connect with other people, it's almost like having a BAME group, like you might make in your university, like I did. But some people might do that. But then actually, it's a virtual one that's bigger, and you can connect with people all over the UK and things like that. So just to share resources, or just speak out and be encouraged, those kinds of things. I mean, I'd love to have had almost like an older sister or something or someone that you could just connect with and be like, is this normal? How I'm feeling? How do I bring race into process? Because I'm the only one that will talk about it, do you know what I mean? Just to like, have your feelings or thoughts normalised, I guess and have people to connect with in that way. So it's really exciting really, just to think those areas of pain that I had that could be avoided for some if there's a community there for

Peter Blundell: 24:29

And I know how much hard work that can be kind them. of setting something up like that and kind (Do you? You know I'm joking - KE). I really admire that you're doing that and kind of to create something like that, because it's quite challenging, but it's absolutely needed,

Kim Evans: 24:47

Yeah, no definitely and I'm hoping like, you know, my motivations will keep me going through the kind of harder parts of it, definitely.

Peter Blundell: 24:57

So thinking about maybe the broader profession, what kind of what do you think's the biggest challenge that the profession faces right now, from your perspective?

Kim Evans: 25:08

My thoughts on this kind of went straight to kind of NHS versus like private care, because when I speak to clients, when they come in to do some work with me, through my private practice, a lot of them have had quite difficult experiences within the NHS. And it's like, now they're going to private. And then sometimes there's barriers in terms of like, either the finance or they're like (strike and bobba...unclear dialogue) give this a chance, those kinds of things. I'm just like, is there a way that we could be even more accessible, if that makes sense. But then at the same time, we still need to put, like money in our pockets and food on our table. So it's just that balance, really, in terms of, you know, there's people that are in real need, but they're not able to access...what would be really good for them? Because sometimes the NHS is just not in depth enough, or it's not long enough. Those kinds of things. So yeah, I think that is just a bit of a problem at the moment, especially with rise in prices and stuff that we're experiencing right now. People want to prioritise their mental health, but it financially isn't viable for many.

Peter Blundell: 26:21

Yeah, so that feels like a really, from my perspective, a really big gap between the kind of NHS provision and private practice. I feel almost like theyr're completely separate entities. Yes. And, you know, where is the funding available that could maybe make some of those private practitioners accessible?

Kim Evans: 26:39

yeah, yeah..,

Peter Blundell: 26:42

access therapy through the NHS? So I think that's, I think that's a really good point. And I think it's almost quite hard, I think, as private practitioners to feel like we could do anything to help bridge that, at times.

Kim Evans: 26:56

Yeah. No definitely I know, some people do, like pro bono work. Like they might have like two, like, you know, low fee slots or free slots. Yeah, exactly. Which I guess can help a bit if everyone was doing it. But I think there's still more demand more than that, if that makes sense. So, yeah..

Peter Blundell: 27:18

it's really challenging, isn't it for, you know, maybe a private practitioner who's not maybe earning that much. (So yeah - KE). You noticed, then to then try and lower their prices? That could be the difference between, you know, making enough that week or not, you know. But then, you know, also important to try and make it as accessible as possible.

Kim Evans: 27:37

I know, it is hard. And then like you said, it's a balancing act, because you do have to think about what you can afford to offer, and things like that. Because, yeah, the high prices also affect us as therapists too. So it's, yeah, yeah.

Peter Blundell: 27:53

Really difficult. So we're gonna move on to talk about your research, which you mentioned earlier. So I know, I've seen your presentation that you did at the BACP Research Conference, which was black... and you titled that'Black Minds Matter'. Could you just tell the listeners a little bit about your research; what it was, and kind of what you found?

Kim Evans: 28:17

Well, I looked at specifically colour blindness in therapy, where the therapist is white British, and the client is Afro, black-Caribbean, or of African descent. So I wanted to be really specific in terms of like just the dyad, because obviously, not just look at race in general. And also that was connected to my experience as well, having a white therapist for four years of my training. And specifically colour blindness, because she made a comment about kind of seeing all races like the same, like she's like, if I had a Chinese client or white client, or black client comes through, like, I just see them all the same - kind of thing. And then it kind of hit me that we'd been doing therapy for a while, and I just never felt comfortable speaking about my racial identity. And I was like, 'Okay, I think that's why' because you never said I couldn't, but there just wasn't that invitation. And perhaps it was this kind of what I named colour blindness, that she'd described. That was almost like a block there. So I wanted to explore, you know, have other people like myself in the client position felt similarly, how open do people feel about talking about race and if they don't, what could be done to make people feel more comfortable and those kinds of things. So I had a lot of fun and a lot of pain and a lot of frustration, as you know the process of doing it because it's a couple of years, putting it all together, but it was nice to be able to let my creative side come through. So there's a lot of colours. There's a lot of paintings, there's poetry in there as well. I've even got a picture of myself, which was quite controversial, but because a lot of my aims; one of my aims was around being seen and being heard, I was like, what would it be like if the co-researcher wanted to be seen? Can we do that? And so, me as one of the researchers, I'm co researcher, I wanted to have my picture in there. And we were just kind of exploring what would that be like? What does that mean to be seen? And is that okay, and this, you know, context and stuff like that. So that was quite fun doing that. In terms of the findings - so we had two co researchers, and then myself was one of the researchers as well. Um, tt was really interesting, because I think most of the feedback was around there needing to be an invitation. And also, the fact that race was important to be discussed. Because even if they hadn't come to therapy about that, it was still kind of part of their process, or a big part of their identity. So it felt strange having to almost like leave at the door, and come in and present everything else. The other thing that was interesting, which I was, was surprised to hear - if that makes sense - because you know, sometimes you have your own hypothesis, 'oh, everyone's gonna say this'... so I imagine this is what the response will be. Someone said that actually speaking about race wasn't important to them. Because of their own experiences in life, they hadn't met a lot of racism, if that makes sense. So it seemed like there was a connection with someone's own personal experiences with race discrimination, or racism, and wanting or needing to talk about that in therapy. So that was something that was quite interesting to find, as well. But also just to, after presenting the presentation, to hear how common this was, because obviously, I only interviewed three people. So that's not a large do you know what I mean, like response space, but then to hear that actually, this resonates with so many people in terms of really feeling that the welcoming space to speak about race was missing in therapy. That for me was like, wow, and just made me realize how important it was to actually start this conversation. Because that's what it was really - a start. And can I just also highlight that this was pre George Floyd's murder. So people were like, shocked that I was even saying the 'R' word - like she's talking about race; 'oh my gosh', on this platform, people were lik 'You're so brave'. And it's like it almost like un-silenced people, because it's like, someone's talking about this. And I haven't felt brave enough to speak about it. And that was people from different racial backgrounds, because there's even white therapists that were like, I want to be able to feel more confident talking about this, but it just doesn't feel like I can do that in my training. So like, people then went back to their different spaces and wanted to have those conversations, and then obviously, the devastating event with George, then it's like, boom, a catalyst. Now everybody wants to talk, and it just feels like really relevant. And everyone wants to start reflecting inwardly and, and you know, interpersonally, as well. So, yeah, I just wanted to just put that out there, I guess, in terms of the timing of the relevance of it. And when it came out really

Peter Blundell: 33:17

And important that those conversations continue. (Yeah - KE).. that they're continuously happening.

Kim Evans: 33:24

Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. The other thing I really wish I did was, like, coined or like copyrighted'black minds matters', because I got that out there before. And then now there's like, a whole organisations built on it. But I think it's good that we're prioritizing that. So it's like, I'm just glad it's happening, that we're talking about it, do you know what I mean? Although part of me is like, I didn't know that it was just going to be so relevant. And so, so big. For me, it was just like my small experience. I didn't think anyone would even care to read or want to know about it. So it has been like such an amazing experience for me since that time. Definitely.

Peter Blundell: 34:04

It's... It's fascinating research. And I think also the way you describe it, I think it really helps it come alive and understand those participants experiences. So yeah, we'll put a link to your BACP presentation if people are interested in that....

Kim Evans: 34:19

Brilliant. Thank you.

Peter Blundell: 34:22

So yeah, so I feel like that's all my questions. I think, really, is there anything else that we've not talked about that you thought that we might we might end up discussing today?

Kim Evans: 34:33

No, I think we've covered a lot of things and some things that I wasn't prepared for but actually it's nice how it just like came out and like evolved through the conversation really.

Peter Blundell: 34:45

It's brilliant. I mean, I really wish you a lot of success because I think all of the work you're doing is absolutely brilliant. And I know you're kind of passionate and very busy kind of trying to make all those things happen. There's lots of stuff going on in personal life as well. So I really, I really admire it. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and being on the other Therapists Connect events that we've had as well. We really appreciate it.

Kim Evans: 35:10

Yeah, thank you keep in touch - all the best.

Opening: 35:14

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