Therapist to CEO

This is a 'Discussion Episode' of the #TherapistsConnect Podcast. We asked a panel of therapists and mental health practitioners to take over the podcast and discuss a particular topic. In this panel, the guests discuss what it is like to run a mental health business whilst also working in other roles in the world of mental health. This discussion was so interesting we have broken it down into two episodes - we will release a special 'bonus' episode in 2023.

The host of this podcast is a previous guest - Kim Evans (see the August 2022 episode to hear more about Kim!). Kim is a Person-Centred Psychotherapist, Research Supervisor and Coach. Her company Kaemotherapy training and consultancy helps therapists to explore race in their therapeutic work and better support a racially diverse range of clients.

Ngozi Cadmus is our second-panel member. Ngozi is a Mental Health and Leadership Expert, and Business Strategist. 
 
Vaness Boachie is our third panellist and is the Founder of Inside Out Wellbeing. A not-for-profit social enterprise committed to helping people improve their mental health and well-being.

All the panellists were open to being contacted via any of the usual ways (see their social media links below). 

 Kim Evans
Facebook and Instagram - @kaemotherapy
Or email admin@kaemotherapy.com to find out more!
P.s. You can drop her an email if you'd like to join her free Facebook community of Game Changers.

Ngozi Cadmus
Website: www.ngozicadmus.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ngozicadmus/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Wellnetreprene1
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngozi-cadmus-54986b247/
Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ngozicadmus

Vanessa Boachie - Psychological Therapist & Founder of Inside Out (Well-being)
Website: https://www.insideoutwellbeing.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nessabanks_/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/nessabanks_
Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessa-boachie-07578548/

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Opening: 0:01

This episode of therapists Connect podcast is sponsored by WebHealer. The number one website provider for private practice therapists, serving the community for 20 years WebHealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website, a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice, WebHealer can help. Contact where people today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon Therapist Connect for 100 pounds off their do it for me service. Welcome to the therapist Connect Podcast, a podcast for therapists by therapists.

Kim Evans: 0:54

Hello, and welcome to Therapist Connect. This is a discussion episode. I'm Kim Evans, person centered psychotherapist, Visibility Coach and research supervisor. I'll be interviewing two therapists who are excited to share the ins and outs of running a mental health business alongside their psychotherapy practice. Hi, both, it's lovely to have you today. So I will start with Vanessa, can you tell me who you are and what you do.

Vanessa Boachie: 1:27

So my name is Vanessa and I am a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I am also the founder and director of the organization Inside Out Well-being. So in terms of I guess, all about myself, I'm all about mental health all about well being. And I guess that comes across through my own practice as a therapist, and also with my social enterprise. I'm very passionate about mental health, education in particular. I believe that mental health education psychoeducation can essentially change lives. And I've I've seen it for myself, and also again, within my practice and within the business as well. So I guess Inside Out Well-being is all about providing that mental health education across the community, with young people doing so in creative ways.

Kim Evans: 2:21

Oh, brilliant. I love it. So you're working with day to day people in what you do. And it sounds like your mate(inaudible) doing an amazing work. And just pause on what you're doing because we will go into your business in a bit more depth. But thank you for that wonderful introduction, Vanessa. So we have Ngozi as well on the line. So Hi, hun, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Ngozi Cadmus: 2:44

Hi, Kim. Hi, Vanessa. My name is Ngozi Cadmus. And I am a psychotherapist and social worker. My specialize in mental health and leadership coaching. I run a multicultural counseling service called Frontline Therapist and also a coaching and consulting company to help women essentially level up in their leadership.

Kim Evans: 3:10

Lovely. Wow. Sounds like you've got a lot on your plate but it sounds all wonderful. Thank you so much for that. So you've all like spoken a little bit about your businesses? Is there anything more that you want to add? About what you do just so people get an extra flavor about your business and what's happening with it at the moment?

Ngozi Cadmus: 3:32

Yes, I don't mind, sorry Vanessa do you want to go ahead

Vanessa Boachie: 3:36

After you you can go.

Ngozi Cadmus: 3:37

Okay, yes, I guess to add to that is my multicultural counseling service specifically serves, I guess similar to to Vanessa's organization. But we work in the Black and Asian community. We work across all communities, but especially targeting Black and Asian, individuals, as we know that they are more likely to be detained in hospital and they are less likely to access psychological services and they are more likely to be diagnosed with severe mental health issues. And they are also more likely to enter into mental health services at the point of crisis. Serve that community, especially because of those needs, and because of the disenfranchisement and the disconnection between mainstream services and the Black and Asian community.

Kim Evans: 4:27

Yeah, yeah, no, that's really true. Definitely. And I'm sure Vanessa, as well can connect with that in terms of your knowledge around Black and Asian communities and mental health as well. Does that come up for you in terms of the work that you do as well?

Vanessa Boachie: 4:41

Yeah. 100% I think that's the reason why Inside Out Well-being started in the first place, I guess. I recognized that there was a gap in terms of, you know, back to the idea of mental health education and psychoeducation where people from racialized communities, from Black and Asian communities as well, may not necessarily be having these conversations about mental health as much, and especially when we look at the stigma that's attached to mental health that may prevent people from being able to speak about their issues, but also access the right support. So yeah, it's a huge part of what we do and is literally why Inside Out started in the first place. And I guess what we aim to do is to make mental health education fun, and easily accessible. Yeah, I know, sometimes when we think about mental health, as much as we're speaking about it a lot in social media, across the media, people are becoming more aware of it. However, it still feels like, you know, for for many people, they're not getting the right support for them. This is where we come into play to be able to look at providing support from an intersectional standpoint as well.

Kim Evans: 5:57

Yeah, brilliant. That sounds really good. And just as well Ngozi. I don't know if you said your company name, but as Frontline Therapist that people might know of or have heard of. And it was built up during the lockdown, wasn't it? And it's still going now.

Ngozi Cadmus: 6:14

yeah, just prior to so it was actually a couple of years beforehand, but it expanded during the lockdown. Yeah, yeah. So we kind of it was established in 2018.

Kim Evans: 6:26

Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking even for myself, as well, with my business that is mainly online, connecting to some of the threads that's already been spoken about thinking about race in therapy and supporting people from racialized minoritized backgrounds, you know, doing training for white therapists or therapists that want to work with color that really started through the pandemic as well. So there was kind of like a catalyst through that there was more need for people to look at their mental health or look at race in therapy or look at, you know, psychoeducation, or those kinds of things. So I imagine for all of us, there was the kind of boost that happened during that time as well, for our businesses. So we're all therapists, right? But also business women. And in a way, sometimes people might think they're very different things. What inspired you to want to expand your business beyond the therapy room? So you know, you see your clients as well? What made you think, okay, I also want to do this, or I can do this because, you know, people might be listening, thinking that's a huge venture. So yeah, tell us a little bit more about what inspired you guys.

Vanessa Boachie: 7:43

I feel like for me, it was actually the other way around where? Yeah, so I started Inside Out before I actually became a therapist. Oh, wow. So inside out, launched in 2017. And we did a community event just to bring awareness to mental health within our, you know, within our local area. And it was off the back of that event where we had different psychologists, therapists, and also creatives come to talk about mental health. And I think for us, it was that combination of being able to look at mental health in a creative way. So it was the off the back of that event where people asked me Vanessa, when's the next one? When's the next one? I was like, Okay, well, let's do it. Next one. Let's go for it. So that's when I started doing more of these type of events, where now we're looking at, you know, not just workshops, but we're looking at mental health, and yoga and mental; health and drama. So we did a theater production. We've done, you know, dance events, we've done lots of different creative things. And I think from that, I guess the reason why I started before I actually became a therapist, I was working in mental health, but I wasn't a therapist. I felt that at that time, I had really benefited from, again, mental health education. So the least I could do is of course, share that with people. Yeah. And then I guess I was really inspired by connecting with more people meeting more therapists and psychologists and that's when I made the decision to actually train as a therapist. It's something that I've always wanted to do anyway. But I think, for me, I was just really inspired by starting the work starting the business already. And then expanding my knowledge, and I just felt that with the little that I know, I'm sure that could help someone. So I might as well you know, start in that way and then work on my own personal development as I'm going along as well. And yeah, it's it's worked out quite well.

Kim Evans: 9:53

Yeah, that sounds brilliant. Thank you so much. And that's so insightful thinking of the way round it came for you. What about, you?

Ngozi Cadmus: 10:04

You know I love that Vanessa say it was the other way round. So that was like the landing pad for you to go, you know what I want to deepen my understanding of this so I'm going to therapy, I love that. I started when I was in training. So I was so I actually haven't worked typically so, what would you call it employee as a therapist, I was already social worker. So I started while I was continuing my training, and it kind of started because of a need. So when people ask me all the time, how do I start a business, I always say it comes from the needs around you; whether it's you experienced in that, or people around you. And it came from a need it was a woman who wanted to work with me, and I, you know, couldn't, and I couldn't find anywhere that was affordable, and that could work with racialized communities. So I decided to create, it wasn't that straightforward, it sounds straightforward, but it wasn't that straightforward, there was lots of ups and downs. But essentially, that was the catalyst, it was a need that I could see in the community. And because I'm one of the, as the social worker, I'm one of the professionals that detain people under the Mental Health Act. So I work in the severe and at the same time as the therapists in the preventative end as well. So seeing the fact that the clients that I'm putting in hospital under Section Two and Section three, I don't have anywhere to send them. Where would I send them, you know, where do I send these people to receive, you know, culturally sensitive counseling from. So I can't say that I set up oh I'm going to start a business it was, and feel the need. And a lot of entrepreneurs will find that a call the accidental entrepreneur, you kind of become an accidental entrepreneur, you'd start off with wanting to support people and help people you go, Oh, my gosh, I've got to have a structure in this role, you know, it's not going to work. I've got to have a vehicle around this role not going to work. So the business element comes because in order for it to be sustainable, and for it to be effective, you have to create a structure, you know, around what it is that you're delivering. If not you're just going to, you know, essentially burn yourself out and not be as effective in the long run. Yeah, 100%

Vanessa Boachie: 12:09

agree with that, really. Yeah, I definitely agree with that as well about becoming an accidental entrepreneur. In a way. I felt like that was similar for my experience as well, where when I initially started, I wasn't thinking, Yeah, I want to start a business. I want to, you know, essentially, I just wanted to fill in fill in the gap. I wanted to help people just similar to what Ngozi said as well.

Kim Evans: 12:33

Brilliant. No, it's really, really true. And I guess for people who are listening, and they're thinking, you know, I'd love to start a business as well. I hear what you both are saying. And again, I'd totally agree that thinking about what needs are out there. And it kind of can happen quite naturally. When you look at people's stories, why they started, it's usually linked to something that's happened to them or something that they see around them, that's inspired them to just go for it really. And there's a lot of learning as you go along. Right? Like, oh, my gosh.

Vanessa Boachie: 13:02

So yes, yeah. So much. I think, especially because I don't have a background, you know, you know, some people might have studied business or done a course in business. And that wasn't the case for me, I literally as I was going along, that's worth it. I can maybe I can pick up this course, or I can speak to this person. But I think sometimes we feel that we need to be 100% ready before we start something. But I believe that with the little that, you know, you know, that knowledge can really, really go far and help someone. So, you know, as you start, you know, the resources are there and hopefully it all aligns.

Kim Evans: 13:42

Yeah, no, definitely. Okay. I was gonna ask this question a bit later on in the interview, but I think it feels like a natural place to ask it now, just in terms of what advice would you give to somebody or another therapist who is looking to, you know, start a business and I guess, maybe carrying on a little bit from what you were saying Vanessa has anything else to add to that?

Vanessa Boachie: 14:05

I think the first thing that I would say is do it. Okay. Just go ahead with it, because I think it's something that we can easily overthink. And I of course, I completely understand that there are structures that you need to put in place and things that you need to put in place for the business itself to be sustainable, and for it to keep on going. However, I still also believe that when you start you know, that's when you learn the most. Yeah, once you're in it, and once you're doing it, you're able to actually practically see how things work. And even if you give it a go and it doesn't work, at least you've learned from it to be able to put into something that you do next time as well. So I think first thing that I would say is, you know, just go ahead with it. And then once you've I guess tested something out piloted something out? Yeah. And then start to think about, of course, how are you going to make this sustainable because sometimes, especially coming from a background, as a therapist, we're coming from these helping professions where we really, really do want to support people. Yeah. But you know, of course, at the same time, we can't essentially support people for free all the time, to make the business sustainable as well. So also think about what are some of the structures that you can put in place to make this an actual business because of course, there'll be a difference between having a charity and a business. Looking at the structure that would work best for you. Doing research, speaking to people, so the people that who are already doing it, you know. I'm sure people will be happy more than happy to offer you some advice about how to get started. I know I am more than happy to speak to people. I speak to people about it all the time. So yeah, those are the three things that I would say get started, do some research about how you can become sustainable and speak to people who are already doing it.

Kim Evans: 16:06

Oh, brilliant. And you heard that everyone Vanessa is open to, if you've got questions about that. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Ngozi what about you? What would you advise people?

Ngozi Cadmus: 16:20

Yes, I definitely think what Vanessa said is essential. I think the only thing I would add, I guess around it would be, you know, similar to what Vanessa said about just doing it, it's in the process that you learn so much, you know, people want to perfect that idea. I want to perfect the surface when you don't know what's going to work until you start it. And where you start is not where you end up. Now, where I started, Fontline Therapist is not where it ended up. And if I had thought about it and, and sat on it, for even longer, I wouldn't be where I am now. Because there's only in the process as it unfolds, that you begin to see all the things that you experienced, and begin to learn the ups and downs of the mountains and the valleys. So you have to start it, you have to kind of embrace the unknown, and say that, you know what, I might be a little bit fearful. But I recognize that if I go day by day, moment by moment, as long as I have an eye to learn, you know, and a heart and willingness to to learn that that's enough and I think in the beginning. Now, of course, there's gonna come a point when you're doing stuff, and you might think this is just not working out. Or maybe you're working with clients and you're not feeling that you'd be remunated successfully, then you've got to seek support. So similar to what Vanessa says, but sometimes you've got to pay for the, knowledge that people have, have gained and garnered over years. So you have to seek You know, some business support, because for most of us that have come from helping professions we just want to give and help. We're not we're not like they say you're not necessarily to go from a practitioner to a CEO is a transition. Yeah. You know, we go via the heart. We want to help everybody you know, you know, the big the biggest thing I always hear from people is, you know, who do want to work with? Everyone. Ya know, who'd you know, yeah, I want to work with everybody! It's like, that's not really how it works in business. Yeah, you get the biggest heart as you can, but you do have to narrow down and really think about who are the people that I can serve the best with the thing that I you know, I have to offer.

Peter Blundell: 18:18

This is just a short break to have a message from one of our sponsors, so please don't go anywhere. If you'd like to sponsor an episode of the Therapists Connect Podcast, send us an email for more details: info@therapists-connect.com.

Opening: 18:33

This episode of Therapists Connect podcast is sponsored by WebHealer, the number one website provider for private practice therapists. Serving the community for 20 years WebHealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice WebHealer can help. Contact where people today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon Therapist Connect for 100 pounds off their do it for me service.

Peter Blundell: 19:15

We hope you enjoy the rest of this episode.

Kim Evans: 19:18

I think everything that's been said has given such like a rounded perspective and just helping people to think of you know where can I reflect inward about whether it's right for me in terms of going into business and things like that but also outside external support, whether it's just approaching someone or invest in in coaching and like business support and things like that. So loads of food for thought. Thank you so much, everyone I just love this like there were offers here people open to email. Ngozi is open to a coffee and chat as well.

Vanessa Boachie: 19:50

I need to drop her a message. Yes

Kim Evans: 19:53

definitely. Because myself and Ngozi do you know coaching as well mine on the market inside and Ngozi in terms of general business support for, you know, people in wellness spaces who want to develop their businesses as well. So yeah, we've got some expertise here on the line. So do definitely get in touch. Okay, so I feel like we're just moving through the areas that we're wanting to discuss. So naturally, because the other thing I was going to ask is a little bit if you could tell me a little bit about your modality as a therapist? And also, do you feel like there's any philosophical tensions between being a business owner and, you know, the kind of underlying philosophy within your practice, if that makes sense? Because Ngozi spoke about, you know, the journey from being a therapist to a CEO is quite a big one. So yeah, if you did have any thoughts about that journey for yourself, what would you share? For people on the line? I'm listening?

Vanessa Boachie: 20:56

I think it's yeah, for me, it's quite similar to what Ngozi has has said, with that journey from being a therapist, to a CEO, of course, you want to help as many people as possible, you want to support as many people as possible. But of course, as a CEO, as a director, you also have to make decisions. And those decisions could be around funding, and it could be about social media, you're wearing multiple hats at the same time. And I think that's one of the main differences that I found where, you know, working in a particular service, maybe decisions are being made for me. And I guess there are constraints around what you can and can't do. So I guess, to tie in with your question. So I practice as a cognitive behavioral therapist, and I guess, within the public service that I work in part time, there are particular, I guess, let's say, constraints around the way you practice CBT, for instance, or maybe the amount of time that you can spend with patients with clients in a session. So these are decisions, these are the, I guess, the type of decisions that are made for you, in terms of even when it comes down to targets, okay, that's a good example, targets. These are decisions that are made for you to be able to reach particular targets for the service that you're working in. Whereas, you know, when you transition over to being a CEO, running your own company, running your own social enterprise, you are making those decisions for yourself and for your team as well, and also for the people that you're working with. And there's a bit more. For me anyway, I found that there's a bit more flexibility in what we can add to, for instance, a workshop that we're doing with a university or workshop that we're doing with a corporate organization. So yeah, I guess all of these are things that you almost learn as you go along. I think it will differ depending on your own practice as a therapist as well. But I think one of the key things that I've found is that I'm able to be more flexible bit be a bit more much more creative. Like I spoke about with Inside Out, we've done theater productions, we've done, you know, dance events around mental health to educate people. So the packaging of what we're doing is quite different, it would be quite challenging to do that within, you know, a service, you know, where decisions are being made for you. Yeah, I hope that makes sense.

Kim Evans: 23:44

No, it does. It's really clear. Yeah, no, thank you so much for that. Ngozi, what are your thoughts on this particular area? What would you say?

Ngozi Cadmus: 23:55

That's interesting. I don't haven't had any tension. So I'm on transactional analysis. In my training, I trained, where I trained is very integrative. Yeah. So and transaction analysis came out of psychoanalysis, anyways. Eric Burns, the founder, so he was more or less, he was rejected psychoanalysis, which quite a few of the founders of different modalities end up wanting to differ from the, you know, the founding father, which is Freud. But I guess he started off as a private practice, I guess. And I was taught predominantly by people in private practice. So there wasn't any, any tension, the majority of the people on my training will go into private practice, there'll be actually less people going into employ in your employment, okay, that kind of give in that. But the difference is that private practice in its traditional form is you by yourself. You're technically a solo, you know, so, we're Thai (inaudible) or sole trader, solo entrepreneur. And myself, and Vanessa run it run a business on a service, we have teams, we have people that, that we delegate things to. So we actually run a team. And I guess that's the biggest transition as well, that the first transition would be a solo therapist. And you'll take that step to be like, Oh my gosh, okay, I am now the sole, the sole employee of my of my business. But then you might expand to have a team. So now you are a CEO of a team of more than one, which is more than you. Where there's admin roles, other clinicians, etc, etc. So I think that's also a bigger transition too. So no I don't find it any conflict within my, within my training, I guess I could say that I be similar to Vanessa I don't know, I was the only person well, the only black woman, so I was the only person of color really. So that might have been something that had to contend with, can I go out, you know, as a black woman in a space that is still predominantly white and middle class, and that has been the challenge. And that is a challenge some of the challenges that I faced as a black CEO, in a very white, female and male dominated, dependent on different stratospheres, space. So that's kind of where the challenges have been intentions have been not necessarily with my, my modality, actually, for that my modality allows me to be very, very integrative and pluralistic. And, you know, essentially, I asked for several years now, I'm very comfortable to work in a way that I feel is needed for the clients that I'm working with. I don't feel limited, I don't feel restricted. You know, I was trained to work with with clients for years and years, and years and years and years. So I work with clients for years and years and years. And I also work short term with clients or work very expensively fortnightly. And also with my coaching training as well, I can really integrate that together in therapeutic coaching, and with my business coaching as well, and with my safe background, as well. So what that basically allows me to have a combination of things, and really work intuitively with individuals and groups and organizations. But I will say some of the challenges that I have faced is how do I own my potency? How do I own my space, how do I take authority as a black woman? And not only as a black woman as a as a as a as a Londoner as a North London girl that has come from a particular environment. And I do not speak like my counterparts. And I'm not going to speak because that's not how I was raised? How do I how do I remain confident and believe in myself that I also have a space at the table. And this space, I'm going to secure this space. And those are some of the challenges that I daily and continue continue to face, especially in the therapy space that at the same time promotes inclusivity and diversity to a degree. But then I feel like there's always this kind of underlying tension of we're not always saying what we need to say, you know, therapists love to say I'm open I invite them to this space. But what does that mean, you know, what are you inviting them to? And what are we discussing. If I feel like there's a microaggression, it's usually countered with, you know, set, you know, are you sure what, you know, what's going on in your thinking, but these are therapists who will say I invite you to an open space, but when you challenge and say what I felt that there was some microaggressions there's a lot of defensiveness. If you challenge that, then you're the one that said to be defensive. So those are some of the challenges that I think I faced as a CEO. But I'm navigating well, but yeah, I think that I face.

Kim Evans: 28:25

Yeah, no, I think those are brilliant answers. And it's really food for thought even people thinking about their social location. And being in a position of power, I guess, is what we're talking about, which is a shift from being in a more helping position as a therapist and things like that. And just as you were talking, I was thinking the people that you're describing these therapists, they sound like they need to book a training course with me at Kaemo Therapy to help them do they do you know. I mean because it is quite insidious in terms of, you know, if people don't have that space to really challenge these prejudices or things racism that affects us all, like, how can they really fully be, like you said, inclusive, or have equality as their thing? You know, it's not going in action. It can't just be something that is said or an idea. It has to be done in practice. So there is support out there, get in touch with anyone that needs that training. I don't know if you had any thoughts in that particular area of Vanessa. Just

Vanessa Boachie: 29:24

yeah, I guess what came to mind for me is that's why a lot of people don't end up starting. And a lot of people end up I guess, allowing imposter syndrome to literally overtake them. Because of these things. You know, if you are the only young black woman in a particular space, trying to navigate and trying to do something completely different to what everyone else is doing. Yeah, you have to be confident in yourself to be able to do that. Because of course there's going to be a lot of criticism, there's going to be you know, people who will see you doing things differently that, you know, will be wondering, you know, why are you doing this? What's the point, you know, all of these different questions and opinions that are being put on you as well. So you definitely have to be confident in yourself to be able to pursue something like this. And, you know, that's why there's services like, yourselves, and Ngozi's is where you know, you can get that coaching to develop that confidence, be able to, you know, go on that journey.

Kim Evans: 30:27

Yeah, no, definitely. It's so important. And from what you've said, it makes me think of how important community is. I'm trying to do at the moment is develop, develop a community of, you know, therapists of color, who can come and do stuff around business as well. They're called the game changers, because like you said, they're doing something different. And because of that, they now no longer feel like they belong in there. So it's like, where can they go? Where there's other people doing a similar thing, trying to be a pioneer? And those kinds of things? So yea, it's really important.

Vanessa Boachie: 31:03

Yeah, even just to add to that, I think that's why it was so so so fundamental and important for me to launch the Inside Out Well-being award, which we did in May. Oh, yay. Yeah. Because I think for me for a long time anyway, just like you mentioned, recognize that there's a lot of people out there who look like us who are doing such amazing work. They're doing amazing things. But it feels like everyone's in isolation. So how do we bring people together as a community, and also recognize the work that people are putting in. I remember looking around to see if there's, you know, wellbeing awards out there for people like us people, you know, who are doing work that we're doing, and there were a few out there. But again, one of the things that I noticed was that, you know, these award ceremonies were not inclusive, and did not really take into account people who are doing things for the culture who are doing for us, as well. So yeah, that's why I believe that, you know, doing the awards, inside Out Well-being awards was a really helpful way of number one, bringing people together, creating that community. And also number two, recognizing and honoring the great work that people are doing within the community as well. So yeah, just be able to celebrate people as well as you know, network with other professionals.

Kim Evans: 32:31

Yeah, it looked like an amazing event as well. I remember seeing the pictures is beautiful.

Vanessa Boachie: 32:36

It was so fun to organize as well.

Kim Evans: 32:40

And I mean, how amazing for people who were nominated or won awards to have that attached to their, you know, profile and stuff, therapist of the year, organization of the year and those kinds of things. And I know Ngozi was a nominee as well. So congratulations for Frontline.

Ngozi Cadmus: 32:55

Yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you Vanessa, that was absolutely amazing, it just good to be recognized. You know, really, I do hear what you're both saying about a space. And I think there are more spaces coming together than we look at America, there's so many different things. And UK is like so small, but we need these safe spaces. Your game changes came that came I have you know, space for for women who want who are social workers, therapists, anyone in the health, professionals really that want to monetize their healing gifts, essentially. And there is that space. And even before the business element is the mindset element, 'oh my god am I worthy of this, can I do this, do I believe in myself. Who am I'? These are the thoughts that I know I've experienced, I'm sure all of you have experienced. Because the society tells us we can't do this society tells us just to work. Have children, you know, as women, you know, just put up and do your do your thing. You know, yeah, how can you be a pioneer in your own field, especially when that's not what you're taught? You're taught to be a good therapist. You're not taught to be to be a trailblazer, and to be groundbreaking. But we have these desires and these passions and ideas, and we need these safe spaces. So I think we've all got things that we're doing. And I know that I work with women every single day trying to help them unleash that potential and say, You know what, I'm knocking down that door, I'm booting down that door because that door, ain't gonna stand in my way from where I've got to get to.

Vanessa Boachie: 34:21

Yeah, yeah. And even just to add to that, as well, even recognizing and creating the community, you know, to add on to what people have started doing before us. So just to give an example, the Black and Asian Therapy Network, from my understanding, they've been, you know, doing their work for about 20 years now. Yeah, but it wasn't again, I might be wrong on this, but from my understanding, they hadn't been recognized and awarded for the work that they've been doing for 20 years, up until recently. So it's just things like that being able to you know, recognize the people that came before us build upon the work that they've done, and also branch into other areas to be able to create communities. So of course, you know, you know, someone might benefit more from your services than my services or might benefit more from my services then someone else's services. So it gives people the opportunity to find what is right for them when there are these different options?

Kim Evans: 35:22

No, definitely.

Ngozi Cadmus: 35:23

Can I just add, just because this might be moving a bit, even just what you said. And there's someone probably listening and saying, yeah, but isn't that isn't the space saturated. And I want to say that, look, these are real free black women, literally all live in London, we're all working with racialized communities, but we're not competing. There's space for all of us: Spartan and Frontline Therapists, Inside Out, KaemoTherapy Game Changers, you name it, there's a space for all of us, literally. And if you understand that, if the space is saturated, what that basically means is there's a demand for you. There is a demand, as long as you go in there with a genuine desire to serve and to give value with the right support, with consistency with hard work with all of that jazz, all that good stuff, you will do what you need to do and you will grow what you're growing. It won't be easy but it will happen. But I just want to encourage the listeners if they feel like, oh my gosh, but you know, I don't know if I'm actually lay, oh, you know, you guys have been doing it for years. No, no, no we're still growing, we're still learning. It was even harder back in those days. Easier now because there's actually people you can look at, Oh my gosh they're doing this, before there wasn't anyone doing what we were doing. People were'nt on social media. Oh don't go on social media, we all got that in our training, Oh don't go on social media go into the typical traditional outlets and put your practice on there. But all three of us are commanding our space on social media. So just want to encourage those listening that look, the space ain't saturated they need you, your'e unique, be in there, because there's not going to be anyone like you, there's not going to be anyone like Vanessa or Kim, or like myself.

Kim Evans: 37:01

Yes, you really are all unique and special, I love that there is space for everyone. And I think it's, um, it's so easy to forget that sometimes, because often when there's a platform, it's like, there's the one person of color or the one voice to represent all people from a certain background or something like that. And that would be like, you know, them ticking a diversity box, for example. But actually just having this space with us as people, and we all happen to be black women, like, that's totally fine, because we are unique and doing different things. And I think that's such a beautiful thing for people to be reminded of, and also get a chance to know us as well. And even us speaking about what other people are doing. It's like people might be listening, thinking, wow, there's loads of people doing things, and I hope there are some, you know, black women listening as well thinking, you know, I'm a therapist, but also I can do more. And also, you know, to get in touch with us if there are any questions that they have as well. I think just to kind of touch on the original question and just kind of add my perspective on it. As a person centered psychotherapist, I'm you know, we've got this fundamental idea about being non directive. And I think for me, that has brought some philosophical tension in that, as a director, I have to be directive, literally, it's in the name. So there's, like Vanessa said, there's certain decisions I have to make on the full guy, you know, I'm having to help steer the ship as it as it were. So it's really trying to, like you guys have said to kind of step into that role, step into the power that it holds and be comfortable with that. As a black woman, as a therapist, my own personal conditions of worth, as an older sister being the helper being the one that puts everyone else first, those kinds of things, kind of, you're confronted with yourself more, I guess, in business as well. So kind of working through those things. So yeah, definitely get all the support, you can through therapy, through coaching through your community, wherever it might be. But I would say the benefits, the amazing benefits of being a therapist and a business owner is that I understand self care, I can be in touch with my body, I can try and respond when I need rest. And just have a sense of okay, I've done enough work, because there's no boundaries. When you work for yourself, really, you make your own schedule, otherwise you could be working day and night consistently. So really just looking after yourself. So utilizing those tools that you give to your clients about looking after themselves. I'd advise everyone as well. It's something that's really important to take on board as you're moving into business and things are getting busier and things like that. So that's what I'd say on that. Ladies it has been an absolute pleasure, like I've loved this discussion so much. And you know, we might have another opportunity, hopefully to do this. I have one final question. It's a quick one. We don't have a name for this podcast yet, Den den den. But there has been, obviously a running theme around being a therapist and being a business owner. Is there anything kind of short, snappy, relevant that comes to mind? What you got? We could Okay, wait, let's ask Vanessa first.

Vanessa Boachie: 40:18

Gosh Ngozi please go first because I haven't got one yet.

Kim Evans: 40:22

Okay,yea. I've got one as well.

Ngozi Cadmus: 40:23

I was going to say maybe like Practitioner to CEO?

Kim Evans: 40:27

Yes, I was gonna say that because you said, from Therapist to CEO when you're talking and I wrote that down, like, that sounds beautiful. I like that. Yeah, it really encapsulates.

Vanessa Boachie: 40:39

Exactly the journey.

Ngozi Cadmus: 40:41

Exactly, I think it captures all our experiences, because essentially, we've all been practitioners. And now what we're both we're practitioners at heart, but we are CEO in our minds, because we run a service. And we have people that are under us, and which obviously comes with responsibilities. So I think Practitioner to CEO is such a good title. And again, it encourages people that, you know, we didn't just end up as the CEO, we went through the journey, and we're all practitioners still at heart, we all still see clients, whether it's in private practice, or, you know, working for someone, but we run a business, right, and we're affecting change in the market place, and we're supporting people that look like us and don't look like us. We're supporting people to be all that they've been called to be. So you know, if anybody, especially women of faith, that feel that they are called to something greater than themselves, and they really want to monetize their healing gifts, holler-up myself as well, Ngozi Cadmus, on all social media platforms, they can look up my podcast, my YouTube, and I'm here to support you become all that you've been destined to be.

Kim Evans: 41:49

Brillian, anything else? And add Vanessa as well about what you're doing?

Vanessa Boachie: 41:53

Sure, sure, sure. So I guess, at the moment Inside Out, we're working across universities, we're working across corporate organizations and within the community as well to provide workshops, training, all about mental health. So we cover lots of different topics from impostor syndrome, to bringing your authentic self to work. Or to look at, you know, the general topics around you know, introduction into depression, anxiety, things like that. And we also create bespoke workshops as well. So if anyone is interested interested in that, then please feel free to follow us on social media. So we are @Inside Out Well-being underscore. We've also got our website, www.insideoutwellbeing.org. Yeah, if you're interested in any of those services, workshops, support groups, training, then please feel free to message me. If you're looking for I guess, general advice around, you know, starting a business or social enterprise, then please feel free to follow my personal page, which is @ nessavanks_, so that's ne SS Ava n Ks underscore.

Kim Evans: 43:09

Wonderful. Thank you so much. And everyone's details will be accessible, you know, at the bottom of the podcast so people be able to get those details again. But thank you both for your time. It's been wonderful to speak to you both and I hope to be in touch with you all soon. Thank you. It's okay. You're welcome. Anytime, thank you have a good day.

Opening: 43:32

Thank you for listening to the Therapist Connect Podcast. Go to www.therapists-connect.com for more discussions, and debates. This episode of Therapists Connect podcast is sponsored by Webhealer. The number one website provider for private practice therapists. Serving the community for 20 years Webhealer offers a non technical and fully supported online platform, helping therapists use the internet to grow their practice. Whether you need a website a booking system, or even a secure email address for your practice Webhealer can help. Contact Webhealer today via www.webhealer.net and use the coupon Therapist Connect for 100 pounds off their do it for me service.