Erin Stevens

In this episode Dr Peter Blundell (Twitter: @drpeterblundell) interviews therapist Erin Stevens (Twitter: @aclientfirst). 

Erin is a qualified counsellor and psychotherapist in the UK. Erin has a blog which she says "provides a space for me to explore issues around counselling and psychotherapy as well as sharing my thoughts and occasionally my poetry too". Erin's other interests include ethics in counselling and psychotherapy, working with clients who have been harmed in therapy, and the therapeutic use of creative writing.

Blog: https://aclientfirst.com/about/
Practice Website: https://www.erinstevens.co.uk/about

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Opening: 0:00

To the Therapists Connect podcast, Dr. Peter Blundell, interviews therapists about their work and experiences within the therapists community

Peter Blundell: 0:11

Hello and welcome to the Therapists Connect podcast. In this episode, I'm delighted to be interviewing Erin Stevens. Erin is a qualified counselor and psychotherapist as well as an accredited member of the National Counselling Society. Erin is a writer. She has a blog called 'A Client First' where she writes about counselling and psychotherapy. But she also works as a freelance content writer, and she's also a poet. Erin is also a member of 'The Psychotherapists and counsellors for social responsibility', and works alongside other members on their steering group. Her interests include working with clients who have been harmed in psychotherapy, the therapeutic use of creative writing, and group work. But she also writes on a variety of other issues such as ethics, social justice, equality and power in counselling and psychotherapy. Erin, welcome to the podcast today.

Erin Stevens: 1:06

Hello,

Peter Blundell: 1:07

Hello again. How are you?

Erin Stevens: 1:11

I'm not too bad. Thanks. Yeah.

Peter Blundell: 1:13

Good. I don't think we've ever spoken about this, actually. I don't know why you became a therapist in the, in the first place. So can you tell us like what, what drew you to the profession? What made you want to be a therapist?

Erin Stevens: 1:28

Well, I started as a client. So basically, a few years ago now, my mum died. And after that, I'd never been to therapy before, although you could probably argue that maybe I should have heard it earlier. But, and I went into therapy in the months after my mum died. And, I think it never occurred to me before that a relationship existed where you could kind of cut the pleasantries and get straight into meeting the other at depth. I don't think I knew that such a relationship existed. And then, so when I entered therapy, it was like, wow, and I was just hooked on the idea of, you can actually have these kinds of relationships with people where you, they meet you at depth and I started reading Rogers. And this is before I'd even thought about training myself, I started reading Rogers, I was watching, you know, the Gloria tapes on YouTube and I started, sort of venturing towards Yalom and different things and, and looking at different ideas... this first therapeutic relationship had a lot of difficulties attached to it. And, and so I ended up leaving that relationship and finding a different therapist after, I don't know, maybe a year or something. And, and it was kind of here that I really got an experience of the potential that therapy had for change. Because I think, I think the first relationship really sort of showed me something about therapy that was useful, in that you could meet other people at depth but it didn't really, there was no movement for me in terms of my feelings and what was going on for me. So it was really when I found my current therapist, I'm still with that therapist, erm, that things really started to move for me. And I really saw what therapy was and how beneficial it could be. And at that point, I thought that I might like to train. I thought I had an example in my mind of how not to do therapy, and an example in my mind of how to do therapy, and I thought that would stand me in good stead and that it would be a useful kind of thing to take into training. And so I started a certificate; I based my sort of training choice on convenience, rather than putting a great deal of thought into where I was going to train, which, looking back, I think I would probably do that differently. If I could go back up..

Peter Blundell: 4:09

Happens to a lot of people like, in training, though, doesn't it?

Erin Stevens: 4:12

I think it happens with choosing the therapist as well. I mean, my first therapist was the closest therapist, to me. And the second therapist was the second closest therapist to me. So that's kind of, you know, you don't really think of any other way of doing it, I think. And then.. So anyway, on my first day of training, I went in and sat down and the tutor was giving an introductory sort of welcome. And he said, there's one thing you should know. And it's that all clients lie. And this is my first experience of training or anything, you know, and I thought I don't, I don't lie, and I'm a client and I thought if you know, I mean, my therapist said that I'm one of the most scrupulously honest people he's ever met. Which I think, in therapy, I am - not always - but in therapy, I certainly am. I go to great lengths to, to, to be as authentic and honest as I can be. And so I found it really quite offensive. And I didn't say anything, because, you know, it's our first day of training and I probably would argue with it now. But at the time, at the time, I didn't, and it made me think, is this the right profession for me? Is this where I want to be? Or am I just gonna feel to 'othered' as a client, in this environment, and actually, I'm glad I stayed, because I made great friends, I loved many aspects of the training, you know, I really enjoyed theory. And I really enjoyed, you know, as we went forward, good skills and all that stuff. And I really did have pretty much a good experience with training. I think I was quite fortunate in that I was quite active in my own learning as well. So while I feel that some things could have been covered at greater depth, I did sort of proactively seek out that learning myself. But I think there is something, there was something for me in training about the kind of duality of being a trainee and being a client. And I think that's something I still experience now I'm qualified as well. That kind of dual pull; something about belonging in there. So that's kind of how it's how it's been for me, but I still I mean, my Twitter handle is@aclientfirst, my blog is 'A client first' and for me, that's got two meanings. It means, you know, it's a reminder to myself that I was a client first and how I experienced training and all that kind of stuff. And also that, you know, clients really should be at the forefront of what we do, and how we do it. So...

Peter Blundell: 6:53

I completely agree with that. And I think, experience in therapy as a client, I think is so important. And I think for therapists to kind of actually see it from that perspective, because I think there is some kind of, or there can be a disconnect sometimes between understanding what it's like to be the therapist in the room versus the client in the room. But I can also feel as well, that first day of training, that kind of a statement like that, that all clients lie is... gosh... it's such a, it makes such a strong statement in such, for someone's first day of training. I can't imagine what other people were thinking during that moment, when someone would say that..

Erin Stevens: 7:37

well, I would think that people that didn't have any experience with therapy might have thought, oh, clients lie, which worries me, you know, because I mean, I knew all clients don't lie, because I had my own experience. And not not only my own experience, but by that time, I'd spent quite a long time engaging in kind of online peer support with other clients, especially at the time I was having my harmful experience. So I was, I felt more in the client world than I did in the therapy world. So, you know, I knew that it kind of wasn't accurate. And it felt very othering. And actually in those, in my experiences with other clients in online sort of communities, there's also, there is a kind of othering of therapists as well. So I think that kind of, is part of where my discomfort has come from, sometimes with 'where do I belong, now'? You know, am I client or am I therapist? Where, where do I sit as both? And how do I make sense of that? You know?

Peter Blundell: 8:34

Yeah. You didn't let that first initial bit of your training put you off, you did carry on and, and and complete your training and qualify. So, what's your, what's your career been like so far, then since you've since you've qualified, what's that involved?

Erin Stevens: 8:53

Well, when I qualified, I was volunteering at a couple of different agencies. So I did that for a little while longer, after I qualified and then I was on a bit of a kind of hunt for the right kind of supervisor to be alongside me, in private practice. That was my kind of aim. But I didn't want to do that until I felt like I was confident that I had the right supervisor. And so I searched around and I had a few different supervisors for for a while. And I found the supervisor that I've still got. And I felt confident at that point that I had the kind of support in place to start private practice. So I did and, and first of all, just sort of renting rooms and things, which was it, it was quite difficult to kind of make any money and things. But I was quite fortunate, in that I managed to get my own room which I'm in now you can see and obviously the people listening can't, which I managed to get a really good rate and then. So from then my private practice really has really been able to sort of sustain me to be involved in other activities in the profession as well. So the other things that I've got involved with, actually, I think I was still training? Might have still been in training when I started, because I was blogging as a trainee, I started blogging as a trainee, and then sort of paid work came up, as a result of that, I started writing for counsellingtutor.com. So that's Rory Lees-Oakes and Ken Kelly, so I started writing for their website and for their sort of subscription service that they do. It's sort of educational resources for counseling students, and, and various other bits and bobs of writing commissions for different people. And and then, from really my blogging and stuff that I was doing, I became involved with PCSR, which is the'Psychotherapist and Counsellors for Social Responsibility'. And I joined their steering group. So that's another thing I'm involved with. Around that, I... basically, for those that don't know, 'Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility' are an organisation, erm, they hold various different events, pop up events - it's really about therapy in a social and political contexts. So one of the really prominent and, and I think really brilliant things that PCSR do are regular'examining whiteness' events, and it's obviously been put on hold because of COVID-19. But I went to one last year. And I just learned so much about my own positionality as a white person, and how I kind of contribute to, you know, how I contribute to whiteness, and how whiteness impacts on people of colour. And it was a really enlightening experience for me. And it was one of my early experiences with with PCSR. And from there, I joined the steering group and what I'm really hoping to do, and as a northerner I'm based in Ilkley, near Leeds and Bradford. And what I'm really hoping to do is bring PCSR a lot more North. So I'm hoping to next year launch a kind of PCSR North with some kind of event where we can kind of hopefully, by that time meet and look at what events we'd like to see appear to do with politics and to do with kind of social justice issues and things like that. And really see how we can sort of decentralize London and have that something that we can access across the country. So that's the the work I'm doing with with PCSR. I'm continuing to write and blog and that kind of thing, and obviously campaign- I've been campaigning against SCoPEd now for what feels like my entire life.

Peter Blundell: 13:03

I mean, you are active campaigner and you are writing and blogging and tweeting about issues in a, pertinent issues in counselling and psychotherapy within the profession kind of all the time. And I think it's quite, it's fantastic that you've been able to kind of engage with so many different aspects of counselling and psychotherapy over the last few years, really. And I think it's something that I think is really admirable, but also the fact that you did that from when you were a student, as well. So you kind of go through your student days, and also as you've been qualified, you kind of carried that on, I think it's fantastic that you do that.

Erin Stevens: 13:44

Thank you. Yeah, it's really, for no other reason, than I was just really interested and enthusiastic about it, you know, it was just kind of like, I really want to talk about this stuff really want to engage on it. Like I say, I mean, from the very start of my engagement with therapy, I've just been absolutely kind of in love with this profession.

Peter Blundell: 14:07

And, and I think talk about that engagement and debates. I know that that's what we do on Twitter, isn't it? We kind of debate and discuss kind of different issues in counselling and psychotherapy, as well as maybe having some conversations like this. And I think to me, that's really something that I think is really important. And I think that more counsellors and therapists should get involved with those discussions, and it doesn't necessarily have to be on social media. But, you know, it's in some way in the profession kind of feeding back to the membership bodies or the courses that are ongoing at the moment. I think being engaged in that is is part of kind of being in the profession and kind of owning it like we are all part of it. And we should all have a voice in that.

Erin Stevens: 14:44

Yeah, definitely. I hear a lot of people say things like, Oh, you know, only qualified X amount of years ago, I don't really feel like, you know, like, I've got the authority to say anything about it', and I haven't got the right kind of experience or whatever. But you know, that's why I really want to emphasize the point that you know, I was doing it as a trainee. You know, every voice is important, you know, every voice brings a new perspective. And that's not just therapists voices, that's client voices. And I'm really enjoying engaging with clients and former clients on Twitter that have always got something valuable to offer to like the discussions that we're having even about SCoPEd and stuff like that. And I think, you know, I mean, that's something that I think is really kind of missing from SCoPEd - is the client voice. So I think I just think it's great that we're able to kind of, that everyone should feel that they have a voice and, and that their opinion is of value, that the profession belongs to them. Because the profession belongs to every one of us, clients, therapists, you know, and those people who are involved at a different level as well, it's, you know, they have a say, but not THE say.

Peter Blundell: 15:51

Absolutely. And I think it's about opening that up and trying to encourage as many people as possible to get involved with that. And to not just get involved, but understand the issues that are affecting the profession, because they have quite a lot of power, collectively, in terms of what what happens going forward. So yeah. Yeah. And so just changing the kind of topic slightly a little bit. And I just wondering, you know, how would you define your kind of therapeutic approach? And is that kind of something that has it changed over time? Or are you always, kind of been at the view this is this is this is the approach that you er, wanted to do?

Erin Stevens: 16:30

I guess I would describe it, essentially, as evolving. So yes, it's in movement, as I'm in movement, and as we're all in movement, I think my approach is necessarily in movement. But I mean, I trained integratively. And I really come from a sort of position that, well, a person centered philosophy, I think, at my very core, the necessary and sufficient conditions I absolutely do believe in but I also like to, I have an interest in other in other areas, and particularly psychodynamic concepts around transference, countertransference. And, and a lot of this is really, because I have a great interest in the therapeutic relationship and how that can facilitate change. And the relationship is a kind of vessel for growth. And so I have a person centred core, but you know, I do like to incorporate a lot of ideas from psychodynamic, and also existential philosophy as well. But it's how that how that actually looks in the therapy room is just dependent on, you know, it's dependent on the relationship or the encounter in the moment...

Peter Blundell: 17:47

Yeah, no, that's great. And so what advice would you give to someone, if they were entering the profession right now, or they were thinking about starting their training? Is there anything that you, any advice that you would give that you think might be able to help them to kind of go on that journey?

Erin Stevens: 18:04

The first thing that always comes to my mind is find the right therapist, find a good match and explore at depth, really engage with it, don't just think, oh, I've got to do 20 hours. So I'll tick those off. And that's that. For me, controlling the start and end of my therapy has been really important. So for me, that speaks to autonomy. So the fact that I've, I was already in therapy, I was already in therapy when I started training, I was still in therapy when I finished training, but um, but just being able to kind of be in control of that being in control of who my therapist is, being in control of what I do in the room, that has been so important. And it's been, for me, the most kind of facilitated learning of all. And it really, I think, it helps bring theory to life, you know, you can sit and learn theory, kind of, in theory, but it's not the same as actually living it. And so if you're, if you're learning about theory, and you're also at the same time experiencing what those processes are like, and what those kinds of relational dynamics are like, and I think that's really, really helpful. So I would say just really engage with therapy, find the right therapist, don't settle, and check that you getting something out of it. And if you don't feel - if you feel like you're going there and talking about the weather... you know, find the right therapist. And I suppose the other thing I would just say, on a slightly different note is really educate yourself on the precarity of work at the other end of the training process, because if you are going to get yourself in lots of debt, and get out the other side and find that the job you're expecting isn't there. It really is important to think about whether that's the right thing for you to do. So just really make sure you're informed. Not to say don't do it, but just make sure you're really informed about what that'll be like and make sure that you're not going to be feeling let down by the profession, because I think so many people do feel let down by the profession.

Peter Blundell: 20:21

Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And I think that there's like the two aspects there isn't, it's like really engaging with the process itself, and making sure that you, you get the most from it, and you don't just do it in theory, you're actually living and breathing it. But at the same time, you're trying to figure out where it is, as in the end goal as in a job, where you're kind of heading to and what what the prospects are actually the realistic prospects at the end of all of that, before you kind of embark on that, on that journey. And I think you're right, I think a lot of people do embark on that journey, because it's a passion, and it's something that they're really interested in, they want to do, and they can become disillusioned along the way when they get to the other side and find out absolutely that employment prospects are quite, well, are very challenging. And once they get to the, the other side. What other kind of rewards or the challenges that you've kind of had then over the course of your career so far?

Erin Stevens: 21:19

Well, I think the greatest reward is the privilege of client work. I mean, the fact that, you know, the thing that first attracted me to this profession was meeting people at depth and I get to do that, you know, it's my job. And that's, you know, that's amazing. It's brilliant, I love it. And that will always remain for me, no matter what else goes on in my career, that will always remain, for me, the greatest privilege and the greatest perk. And on a similar theme of connection, just the the people I've met, the other therapists that I've met, the connections, you know, Therapists Connect has been really, really great for kind of finding a home for all of that kind of, that kind of connection. I've met some of the best friends I've ever had through campaign work. And it's just, it's just been fun. It's just been fantastic. I mean, it is a community and there's so much good there. Which is why I don't want to I don't want to give up on it. I don't want to give up on the profession, because I feel that there is a really great call there, and I love being part of that. And I feel privileged every day that I am part of that.

Peter Blundell: 22:32

And what about this challenges, then? Or do you want to avoid them?

Erin Stevens: 22:39

Well, I mean...the challenges, I guess, I feel.....I guess I feel there's a lot of division. As much as I'm saying there was a lot of good there is, and actually division in itself doesn't have to be a problem. But I feel like there's there's a kind of unwillingness to communicate, or difficulty finding the right ways to communicate, because I think, what I mean, I'm particularly thinking about SCoPEd, but I'm not just thinking about SCoPEd, I'm thinking about a lot of the kind of, and especially political things that go on in this profession and racism has been recently highlighted as something that's been really problematic. And I think I think we, as a collective, have a lot to learn about constructive dialogue. And while, while we're in the current situation, and things are happening and Facebook groups are getting shut down and everything, I think we, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice. And I also think we're doing the profession a disservice. And I think we're doing clients a disservice. I think one of the... that's like my personal biggest challenge, is how do we, how do we kind of. how do we manage that? How do we improve that because the moment it just doesn't feel it feels like a kind of structural harm. And that, that I guess feels like a personal kind of challenge. So I guess what, what I was trying to say was, I think that we need as a profession to really look hard at how we manage power dynamics and how we manage how that impacts on diversity, how that impacts on equality of access to training and to jobs, and to opportunities. And I, it's one of my main kind of criticisms of SCoPEd really, is that I feel that the TFC becomes really quite inaccessible to people who, well, 1) that perhaps don't have the money to undertake additional classes and additional training and additional placement, and also to those who don't recognize what I think are quite Western centric values as being hierarchically better than other values. And I really do think that non Western practices are entirely missed off SCoPEd. So I think I think that's, I think that's a massive challenge for us, not just around SCoPEd, but generally professionally, and just around how we make sure there is a quality of access, because at the moment, I really don't think there is,

Peter Blundell: 25:43

Do you think - this is just off the top of my head - but do you think that we are good at talking about it, and highlighting the issue, and this is what's needed. When then, actually, a lot of the time that doesn't actually transfer into actual action, actual tangible things that we can actually see changed.

Erin Stevens: 26:04

I don't think we are that good at talking about it. And I think that's been highlighted by the racism that's on Facebook. I've talked a few times about the prevalence of white, middle aged middle class men in positions of power, how prevalent they are, in our reading lists, how prevalent they are in professorships in this profession, and in academia, and also kind of in the highest paid roles in professional bodies and things like that. And I and I and I talked about about that and had some real pushback. And so I don't think we're particularly good at talking about it, I think we're quite good at virtue signaling. And, you know, and I think...you know... especially like, when something like Black Lives Matter comes along, suddenly, we have a lot of very vocal organisations and individuals, and then it kind of goes out in the news, and everyone starts thinking about something else. And but I mean, that's, that, I think that's part of the human condition. I don't think that's unique to therapists and therapy, I think that's kind of some, but it is something that we need to tackle, because I think it filters, my view is that it filters down ... to the therapy room. And if we're not really properly addressing our biases, and we're not really properly, you know, striving to be anti racist, and you know, and not, not just race, but all kinds of marginalised groups that need our support, and need, need to be kind of given equality of access to our profession, at all levels, including as clients. And yeah, and I don't think we're good at action either. I don't think we're good at action. I also don't think we're good at talking about it.

Peter Blundell: 27:59

Talking about the kind of power dynamics within therapy and within therapy community, one of the things that you I know that you've completed research on, is harm in therapy. And and I was just wondering, would, could you tell the listeners a little bit about what that involves, and what you kind of found from the research?

Erin Stevens: 28:20

So yeah, this was my master's research. And I, I interviewed six therapists who had worked with clients that had been harmed in therapy previously. And really, the purpose of the research was to look at kind of what that was like for the therapist, and, you know, what came up for the therapist? And how that might inform us to think about how we work with clients who have been harmed in therapy. And, yeah, it did come from the fact that I had a harmful experience of therapy, that I had reengaged with therapy, and it felt important. When I when I when that happened, I actually looked for literature, again, that was before I trained, I looked for literature around working with clients that had been harmed therapy that I wanted to give my therapist and I found there wasn't any. And I was quite surprised, because I knew that harm in therapy was quite prevalent, because I've been engaged on these online communities where lots of people have been talking about their different experiences of having been harmed in therapy. So it seemed absolute madness to be that there was nothing to be found, to help therapists. And so I thought, well, let's find out what it's like for therapists who, who are working with clients that are, that are coming with this as a presenting issue. And what I found was that, I mean, there was a few things that kind of emerged and one was about kind of questions that were raised for the therapist, not necessarily questions that they would articulate to the client, but questions that emerged for the therapist, such as, was it harm? You know. And how do I understand what happened? You know? Do I believe what the clients telling me? And I thought these questions were very interesting, because I'm not sure they're such prominent kind of questions. And in the context of the client bringing another kind of relational harm. So maybe an abusive relationship or whatever I don't I'm not, I'm not sure that a client, I mean a therapist will be so likely to have those questions at the bottom of their mind. So I just I just think it's curious from that perspective, and there's no judgment there from me, but what I think it does do is it kind of raises questions for me about like, how do we conceptualise harm in therapy, as therapists? You know, do we conceptualise it as something different from an abusive relationship? Or, you know, abusive parents or anything like that? And, and, and how does that, how does that manifest in the way we work with clients? Other things that really came up were strong feelings towards a previous therapist. So especially things like anger, and, and which I think is, you know, quite understandable, as well as comparison. So am I a better therapist than that therapist was, will I do harm, and kind of questions around that as well. So those were the kinds of things that were coming up.

Peter Blundell: 31:30

It sounds really interesting research. And it reminds me just a little bit of my research that we've talked about this before, in terms of boundaries in therapy. And I explored that with therapists and how quite a lot of the time that the boundary, when they were faced with an issue in therapy, that the boundaries that they put in place, were then put in to kind of protect themselves, therapists, not necessarily protect the client. And it just made me think about kind of those things that you were talking, where there in terms of that kind of almost that, well, something's happening in the therapy room, and it's about another therapist, and all of a sudden, the reflection then becomes on the therapist who is there themselves. Well, how am I in therapy? Do I harm? Am I better than that as a therapist, the reflection is on themselves, not necessarily - I mean, I'm sure the reflection is on the client, but not fully on the client, there is an aspect of something else going on for the therapist in that moment.

Erin Stevens: 32:24

Yeah, and what this what this kind of brought up for me was the idea that we don't really think about our own relationship with harm. Most of us will have experienced harmful relationships, at some point in our life, whether, you know, some of us might have experienced harmful therapeutic relationships, I know that a lot of therapists got in contact with me and said, I had harmful therapeutic experiences. So it does happen. And actually, therapists and trainee therapists, disproportionately feature in complaints against therapists as as victims of harmful therapy. So there is something there about the fact that we do experience these things. Do we reflect on what that means for us? When you know, when a client comes in the therapy room has also had a harmful experience? Do we identify with the therapist? Or do we identify with the client? And how does that impact on the way we are in the room? And all those things, I think, I don't think there's any answers for because I don't think there's any one way that people are going to react. But I do think that they're really important questions to be asking ourselves, in terms of how do we feel about working with clients that come with different stories that we feel... One thing that came up, was kind of anger on behalf of the profession. And I know, I've seen this on Twitter; I talked a little bit on Twitter about my harmful experience. And one thing in particular, that that my therapist did, which was quite overtly unethical. And, and a lot of the response from therapists was about, you know, you know, how dare you do this to the profession kind of thing... And so it's like, we kind of also have a relationship with the profession, so we have a relationship with the client, but we also have a relationship with the therapist and with the profession. And it's like managing how all those relationships fit together, I think.

Peter Blundell: 34:19

And I was just thinking in all of that our ability to be able to reflect as therapists when we may have done something that was harmful to a client, whether that was unintentional, but but being able to kind of reflect on that and how we, how we are as therapists rather than just looking at it as something that other people do.

Erin Stevens: 34:41

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's multi layered, isn't it? Because I think I think a lot of people fear complaints. Yeah. And I think that is, I think, quite often at the forefront of people's mind, disproportionately so, in a way that can kind of can I don't create a defensiveness, which is actually harmful. And it's the same I think we've talked about this a little bit before about boundaries, where, you know, somebody, a client might, you know, disclose something to do without it, I don't know, their feelings towards the therapist and the therapist as a result might shift the boundary. They might think, Oh, well, we can no longer hug or something, or whatever. And actually, those boundaries can be received as punitive. And, and while the initial motivation for removing the hook might be, oh, I don't want to do anything that could be perceived as harmful or that can be perceived as unethical. The harmful action is in the remova, is in the shifting of the boundary. And I think that's, that's very common, in my experience of speaking with people that have been harmed in therapy, that actually shifting boundaries as a result of whatever's happened in the therapy, can often be well, I think in the here and now sense, it can be received as punitive, and that can be really shaming and really damaging. And I think also, it can sometimes be reminiscent of what may have happened to somebody as a child or anything and then so that can be kind of, in that sense, possibly can be traumatising. So I think it's really important to be thinking about how we respond to those kind of boundaries.

Peter Blundell: 36:22

Yeah, absolutely. And that evolving thing where we're looking at, okay, this is maybe why I'm thinking I need to put that boundary in place as a therapist. However, it's not just about that, there is always an impact on the client, and actually being open to being able to discuss with the client, what that was like for them, how that felt, their response to that. So that it's not just the therapist with the power and control to put this in place, but actually, that there is at least some dialogue around that, particularly if it's changing from something that has gone before.

Erin Stevens: 36:55

Yeah, that's right. And one thing that my therapist has kind of modeled really well, is actually being open about uncertainty. So, you know, he might say, to me, I've got a dilemma about this, I'm not even quite sure what to do about this. And then because of the mutual, the mutuality of the way we work, we can kind of discuss that together and think about the impact on me and how I will receive that. I mean, that won't always be an appropriate thing to do. But where it is, and where you can be kind of as mutual as possible, in the way that you discuss boundaries and, and, and decide boundaries, I think it's really important to do that, because it's, you know, it's, it's respectful.

Peter Blundell: 37:44

And they are mutually agreed, and discussed and created between two people and not just something that is implemented by the therapist.

Erin Stevens: 37:54

Absolutely. That's what, that's what boundaries are- boundaries in a relationship are between two people. And the client has a right to boundaries.

Peter Blundell: 38:03

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a two way process. Absolutely. It's really interesting, I'd definitely like to read more about your research because I think it sounds absolutely fascinating. So, you are an avid writer, and you've written a lot about therapy, particularly blogging, and I know you've had some things published as well. So just wondering, what what inspires you to, to write what is it that kind of motivates you?

Erin Stevens: 38:32

Well, and I started writing poetry very young. And, well, it was my, you know, my parents, I guess that kind of introduced me to poetry and my mum wrote poetry. And, and I stopped quite abruptly when I was 17, writing poetry, but I did I went to uni and I did a creative writing degree. And I didn't enjoy uni very much. And I felt quite outside of it and outside of kind of the, the kind of culture of what was going on at uni and I didn't really engage with it that well,

and I came out with a 2: 39:08

1 but I didn't really I didn't really enjoy anything that I wrote at Uni, so had kind of fallen out of love with writing at that time. I applied for a couple of copywriting jobs, I didn't get them. And I just kind of completely gave up on writing I think. And I didn't write anything then for most of my 20s and then when my mum died, and I went back to uni, one thing that my first therapist got right was that he encouraged me to write a poem. And which was good for me because it was a way to kind of reconnect with something that had been quite important to me with my mum because my mum was also an excellent poet. And so I wrote and then it just kind of kicked off. It really kicked off the kind of thing for me for the next year where I was writing nearly every day and I joined an online kind of poetry community. And I was I was writing and writing, and making kind of friends all over the world who were interested in poetry. And so I really just got back into writing. And then when I trained, I was leaving, because we had quite big lectures, there wasn't much time for conversation about a lot of the theory and different things that we were talking about. And I was coming home feeling unfulfilled, I was feeling like, I've got more to say on this. So I thought, you know, I've never blogged before, but I thought, I'll just set up a blog and write down the things I'm thinking that I didn't get chance to say in the lecture hall. And I did that and I joined Facebook and I met and Sas, from online events. And she said, she said, you should, you should join Twitter. And, and, like, advertise your blog on there. Otherwise, no one will know that it's there, you know, and she says, it's a good way to so I did. And, and it all kind of started there really with the blogging and, and I just really loved it. And I loved the fact that people read it. And were interested and that it resonated with people, especially some of the stuff I was writing about harm in therapy. And some of that early stuff that I wrote about, you know, boundaries and transference and things like that erotic transference still get the most hits for me, even though most of my blog at the moment is kind of occupied with SCoPEd.. Still, people are really interested in those in those conversations about difficult things in therapy, things like that. So I've just really loved the connections that I've been able to make through that. And then, like I say, it's, it has led to some sort of work opportunities as well. And obviously, other things that I'm doing now. So it's been, it's been a really huge journey for me, but it's been really important. And I guess it's almost always kind of been there.

Peter Blundell: 42:07

I love that idea as well have being in the lectures, but being able to kind of carry on afterwards and kind of kind of get out what you're what you're thinking because that you know, like being a lecturer myself, like, there's only so much time and space that you give to something yet, there's so much more going on. I think it's really interesting that you cover so many different types of writing as well, because you're a poet, you blog, but then you also got kind of more kind of academic articles that have kind of been published as well. So you kind of cover like lots of different types and styles of writing when you're.. and now you're writing a book, so it's there. There's lots in there!

Erin Stevens: 42:43

I definitely feel most comfortable with the blogging, I think, I think because I can just - it's like a conversation. You know, and I mean, the poetry as well, really. I enjoy rhyming, and sometimes it comes really easily. But I mean, I think anything conversational, I think I'm more attracted to than than the academic. I mean, I don't mind the academic and I can do it, but, it's, I don't find it nearly as fun and as releasing and, and I find I find blogging, really energising. And I think I feel the same about even just writing on Twitter, I feel the same, I just find it really energising. It's something about the kind of immediacy and the connection to other people.

Peter Blundell: 43:25

No, I was just thinking that when you were talking as well, the idea with blogging, but also Twitter as well, just being able to talk about something or debate it very quickly. And you can't really sit there and try and come up with this really'academic' language and whatever- you're just because, you're just talking about the issues there with somebody, you've got to be brief in what you're talking about. And there is there is something in there isn't about immediacy and connection and just really getting to the point of what you're talking about. There's no flapping around. It's just, that's just what we are actually talking about here, which I like that as well.

Erin Stevens: 43:58

Yeah, Twitter, Twitter has been the kind of like, the real facilitator for me. It 's been brilliant

Peter Blundell: 44:07

We've talked quite a lot about lots of different things. And so I suppose my last question really was kind of about what is the future for you? And if you've got any kind of like, you're very busy with all the things that you've talked about before but if you got any projects or projects coming up in the future?

Erin Stevens: 44:24

Well, at the moment, I am still waiting to see what's happening with SCoPEd. So that's kind of very much on my mind..

Peter Blundell: 44:32

It's like a full time job that is isn't it?

Erin Stevens: 44:34

It does feel like it Yeah, it does feel like it kind of ironic when I'm campaigning against unpaid work, but there you go. It feels important. And so that's kind of you know, that's there and I'll continue my private practice. I've also just had a book proposal accepted from PCSS books. So I'm going to be writing I'm going to be writing a book on harm in therapy, covering some of the things that we talked about today, really. And yeah, looking at, looking at what harm is, how it occurs, an also thinking about how we coul work with clients that have bee harmed in therapy. There's not ing really out there that cov rs that in depth at the mom nt. So I'm really hoping tha, that this book will be hel ful for therapists who want to hink a little bit more about the r relationship with harm, and also who might be working wit clients that have exp rienced harm in the past. So I'm really excited about that. It' gonna, you know, it's gonna be huge, project for me over t e next year or so. But I'm re lly, really excited about it.

Peter Blundell: 45:38

Well, no, I think that's absolutely fantastic. And it's definitely needed. And I think, actually, rather than just for therapists who are particularly interested in this area, I do think actually, this topic of conversation should be needed in all therapy training, really, because I think all therapists need to be aware of where those potential difficulties and challenges. And so I think it's well overdue topic that needs to be written about. So I look forward to reading it when it's out.

Erin Stevens: 46:08

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with that, that it really should be in training. I don't think it was mentioned at all in my training, sort of, except for by me, because it was always quite an important topic for me. But I really do think that it's something that really needs due attention, really, because I mean, some statistics suggest that 10% of clients experience harm in therapy, and that this statistic is much higher for people from marginalised groups. Which I think, indicates that there's something that we really need to take a good look at, sort of on a professional level, again, on a sort of systemic level, as well as kind of how we are as individuals, but it does, it inevitably filters down into the therapy room. And, and, and we really need to look at how we manage that, I guess, collectively and individually.

Peter Blundell: 47:01

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I look forward to reading about it.

Erin Stevens: 47:06

Thank you.

Peter Blundell: 47:08

So I think that's all my questions for the podcast. And thank you very much for doing that. I really appreciate it. I'm sure we'll speak again soon.

Erin Stevens: 47:20

Thank you.

Opening: 47:21

Thank you for listening to the TherapistsConnect. Go To www.therapists-connect.com For more discussions and debates