Shavasana Part 2: What happens afterwards - vulnerability, giving care, listening to our bodies, to our inner selves and to each other. The conversation on yoga, climbing and healing continues.
Resources:
Produced by Clark Soriano and Julian Noursi.
Artwork by Clark Soriano.
Post-Production by Cozmic Cat
Original music by Cozmic Cat
Thank you Michelle Fanzo (for mentoring) and my darling wife.
Help us reach out and expand. Contribute to our Go Fund Me Page, A Podcast for People Living with Cancer
Shavasana Part 2: What happens afterwards - vulnerability, giving care, listening to our bodies, to our inner selves and to each other. The conversation on yoga, climbing and healing continues.
Resources:
Produced by Clark Soriano and Julian Noursi.
Artwork by Clark Soriano.
Post-Production by Cozmic Cat
Original music by Cozmic Cat
Thank you Michelle Fanzo (for mentoring) and my darling wife.
Help us reach out and expand. Contribute to our Go Fund Me Page, A Podcast for People Living with Cancer
SHAVASANA 2: Embracing Vulnerability
Jonathan (00:00):
Really close off from the outside world here. And drawing inwards, follow your rhythm of breath. Take one more inhale, on this side. If you're lucky enough to be practicing with someone, just notice the energy you get by practicing with a real live human being beside you. If you're practicing by yourself, notice where your energy is being directed. Give yourself some love, some compassion
Julian (00:37):
Welcome to Episode 4, Shavasana Part 2: a conversation on yoga climbing and healing with
This is Julian. Together, Clark and I will be hosting today's discussion. In episode three, we talked about liminal space. Episode four is about what happens afterwards, focusing on vulnerability, giving care, listening to our bodies, our inner selves, and to each other.
Clark (01:20):
...there is something that Jonathan said about going into and observing moments of what I call -- moments of vulnerability. One thing I noticed about both of your classes is that you don't judge. There can be beginners, there can be really, really good people. There can be people who are obsessed with looking at themselves in the mirror. And sometimes I do that, I think a lot of times I do that.
You talk about over-reach. There's always a feeling of ‘should I expand a little bit more? Should I stop?‘ And then I make a decision to share a little bit more, or I make a decision to ask a little more probing questions and we both get into a really, really interesting place. Like you say – ‘a place of real authenticity,’ a place where all of us should be getting into more and more.
So I think your yoga is also a little bit like that. You get into uncomfortable poses -- weighing how far you go and how far your body can stop at that moment. You know what I mean?
Jonathan (02:39):
I do. I do. And I think (that) when we talk about the mind body connection, one informs the other. It's (about) going both directions at all times, which is why yoga ends up being a bit of a double edged sword. It's really great when things feel really great. But you also notice (that) when things are really tough, you feel it. You really notice the aches and the pains and the different things. We need that. We need that connection to how we're feeling.
I remember before I did yoga, I'd have days where I'd just be in a crappy mood, but not really understand why.
And now like it or not, most of the time when I'm in a bad mood, I know why. I am able now to feel it in my body or when I sit in meditation. Like I've had this thought that keeps coming up and I'll start seeing the pattern. And even though sometimes I feel that maybe I'll just, I'll just push it off to the side. But, no, I can't push it off to the side anymore.
Julian (03:43):
The mind, body, heart connection is about creating the space to reflect on thoughts, feelings, and actions before they get lost in too much chatter.
Su (03:54):
I talk about yoga as being my refuge. It is something I go to when I need to center myself, to reset. I feel that when I come to my mat, I can be whatever I am that day. I find that the mat is a place of non-judgment. You can do and be whatever you want on your mat. And that's why I talk about my yoga practice as a bit solitary, even if you're in a class. I love the energy of being in a class, but the practice I feel is still my own. So to me, yoga, even in a hard physical class, definitely has this inner reflective piece to it. Whereas climbing to me like that is a bit more rambunctious. It’s you with your friends and having fun. And that to me is more of a physical challenge…
Julian (04:53):
Yoga, climbing and living with cancer are also about those moments where you hold your breath and you start believing that you can't, but you don't just stay there. You exhale, continue breathing and move on.
Clark (05:11):
…And then there's also those awkward moments. When I feel like I can't finish any of the workouts that you're doing.
Like, when we're doing our zoom class every Saturday and you're doing a 150 or 30 Goddess Squats and I quietly end-up doing just 10. Or when I'm trying to do a certain move and I get the sequence wrong and I get my body twisted.
But then both of you come back in a very non-judgmental way and you say, okay, let's do something else. Or let's do it again. There's no judgment. It's understanding that, that is where your body is. That it doesn't necessarily mean your body will always be like that. But respecting that your body is there.
And I think about that as a metaphor for where I am in my treatment. Sometimes I can get so frustrated and so angry. I just feel so bad that I'm not able to do some of the things that I used to do, like travel and go on a mission in this and that country.
And then, I just have to stop, enjoy and just wonder at what I can do now -- with the yoga, with the climbing and with the coaching and with the way I'm impacting on others. And then I recover.
So it's both that combination of looking inward at yourself, knowing what you can do and knowing what you cannot do, and then humbly accepting it. And then moving on and getting surprised again and moving, moving fast and moving strong again. it's like a cycle. It's like a rhythm, but you always have to get back to the Shavasana moment where you lie down like a corpse, you know, the corpse pose. And you just, settle.
Julian (07:19):
The conversation on Shavasana reminds us of (excerpts from) Lynn Unger’s poem, Pandemic
Cease from travel,
Cease from buying and selling.
Give up just for now on trying to make the world different than it is
Center down.
And when your body has become still
Reach out with your heart,
Know that we are connected in ways that are terrifying and beautiful.
Clark (07:46):
I was looking at another podcast. There he was this person, a spiritual leader, who was talking about COVID-19 as the moment where you hold your routine in parentheses. Because you can't do your routine, you're put in a situation where you have to think, where you spend a lot of time with yourself and spend a lot of time assessing (and) weighing things, looking at what's important and what's not important. And so I think Shavasana or the whole yoga practice is also like that. Sometimes, you just have to put your usual self in parenthesis and pause and discover how strong you really are if you look at strength in a different way,
Jonathan (08:56):
It's okay to be lying in Shavasana, feeling not relaxed. We hear people talking about Shavasana say – ‘I felt such a release. Oh I'm so relaxed.’ And then maybe someone like yourself, Julian, is lying and saying, ‘I didn't feel that at all. Am I doing things wrong.’ The reality is no. You’re not doing it wrong. That's the experience you're having right then. A challenging experience is still a valuable experience.
And it's hard to say that to someone who's going through a cancer journey, right? You're not going to tell them that, ‘wow, this is such a valuable experience for you. You're going to learn so much about your life.’ Because that's not what you should say to someone who's going through that. But it doesn't make it any less true. They are going to experience new things that they never realized that they were going to experience.
And I think people that stick with yoga and stick with being in Shavasana or going through a yin class, trying to find that time just to be a little bit more quiet; they are forced to have sometimes really challenging experiences. And if they continue with their practice, they start to find a way to make changes in their lives.
Doesn't always mean that it's going to fix the thing that they're experiencing, but it does mean that the way they move forward through life, I think is, is a little bit more deliberate. They don't force things onto the back burner, but are maybe more likely to dive right in and, and deal with it.
Clark (10:18):
So there's a part of me that truly wants to get out there; that wants to do a lot of things; that wants to push myself through the limits; that wants to climb and try to do new ways of climbing; that wants to go to places
But there's a part of me that's really sad. I just discovered that more recently, because one of the things that the hormone treatment does to me is that it removes the filters. And when I feel sad, I get to feel sad intensely. So usually what I do is I want to hide that fact from, from friends, from Nesrin (my spouse), from Julian or from anyone else. So the one who knows most about this is Denver (my dog). So we go off on a long walk and I'm really happy that I have a mask and my shades because no one sees the tears that happening to me. And what I think about (during) those moments is, you know, is a sense of fragility. It's a sense that everything is so transitory. But I treasure those moments, too. My sadness is also very special to me. It's a recognition of Humana of your own humanity, of your own vulnerability. That's the right word: vulnerability. So one thing that I learned from both of you in class is don't be scared of vulnerability. So when you encouraged me to do a difficult move (which) I believe (is done) awkwardly, or when I cannot do a move -- that's okay. That it is about being comfortable with being vulnerable and being uncomfortable with not being on the top all the time.
If you had something to advise to other caregivers, what would you tell them? There might be other people who are trainers like you or people who are caregivers, what would you tell them?
Julian (12:13):
What I learned through my experience is to listen more and not just assume things and not to label a person because he has this cancer or something else. Just treat this person as a human and don't label. And (it is) like my journey with you, Clark. I mean, we lived in the same place for a few months. Sometimes I feel that it’s you taking care of me. When I'm down, I'll tell you and you make me cheer up as well. So it's both ways.
Su (12:45):
I don't see what we did together, Clark, in such stark roles of trainer versus trainee or teacher versus student. I just see it more as like we hang out and have fun. It just happened that we just like to do these crazy things together. Right.
I think in, in general, I've been on the receiving end of being injured. (Even) If it's not even close to being the same thing. (I experienced) some of the similar feelings of being really, really frustrated (and) sometimes elated at the smallest little thing that I could do. And what I wanted from other people, at that time, was to not just see me as the invalid.
So when I in a wheelchair for a while, and I couldn't walk, and I remember just being outside on a wheel chair, how hard it was to get around. Kids would stare at me. Right. And I remember one time, a little kid pointed to me when I was in the wheelchair and, you know, called me a grandmother. I was devastated, sad and angry. It was obviously not the kid's fault. They just equated that with being old and frail.
So when, when we started, quote unquote, training together, I did ask John (about it), because you guys had been doing one-on-ones first. I asked Jonathan, “Oh, is there anything I should be aware of?’ So Jonathan gave me some good advice. So I'm going to steal his words. I remember Jonathan saying, ‘you know, just treat him like any other person, you know, I think he just wants a challenge’ I was like, ‘okay, I can do that.’, I really do like a challenge. When someone yells at me, it will make me try harder. (Of course) I think you need to be mindful of the person you're with,
Jonathan (14:53):
This is something I've had to learn. And I probably have broken my own rules on this podcast already. (It’s important) to talk a little less sometimes -- to say the three magic words of, ‘I don't know.’ Sue you've said it right off the bat, ‘Oh, I don't, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I'm equipped to deal with this.’
And there are going to be times, as a caregiver where you just aren't equipped because you are not having the same experience. And so it's really important in those times to not try to make something up. Just say, ‘I don't know. What I can promise you as, as your caregiver or as your teacher, or as your friend is that I'm going to do my best to go do some research and find an answer for the question you are working on’ Or to be like, ‘I don't know. What do you think?’ Talk and ask questions. It's a two way street in these kinds of relationships. It's never just like, as Sue was kind of mentioning, ‘I’m your teacher, you're my student type of relationship. It isn't that, especially in these one-on-one situations where you're also seeing yourself as a, quote unquote, caregiver, which can put a whole lot of pressure sometimes on an interaction where you feel like you constantly have to be trying to look after the person and to really check in on them. And, honestly, sometimes that type of attention can put a lot of pressure on the person that's that is receiving the care. So I guess for myself, the advice I would give is ‘be really open to asking questions and listening’
Julian (16:37):
Clark, I remember when we were having this chat with Clark's friend who had cancer a while back. So her friend asked her, ‘what do you want me to do?’ And she said, ‘make me dinner every Tuesday.’ And then they had dinner every Tuesday. She made her dinner every Tuesday, without speaking about anything else. They spoke about general stuff, but not about, ‘ what do you want, what do you need?’
Jonathan (17:04):
If I can interject with an anecdote. It's COVID relate. Early on in the lockdown, I got a text message from Su. And she said, ‘Are you going to be home in the next 10 minutes?’ And I replied, ‘yeah.’ And Su said, ‘okay, come downstairs in 10 minutes.’ So I went downstairs, 10 minutes later. Queenie (my spouse) was up on the balcony, waving. Sue and Mike (her partner) showed up and gave us two big bags of groceries that they'd picked up. It was all stuff from this really great Korean grocery store - noodles and vegetables and eggs. And honestly, I just about broke down right there. There wasn't anything specific that she had asked, like, ‘can we help you with anything?’ It was just like, ‘you know what? I know they were like Korean food. I know that they like vegetables and things. We're just bring them something that, that helps.’ And that type of stuff I think is the magic in life.
Julian (18:08):
It's lovely hearing you guys. You met through yoga and climbing, but then you became friends and you speak to each other without any filters sometimes. And you speak what's on your mind, which is great. It’s very important to have friends and to have people that you can speak out, you know, speak what's on your mind without judging. I used to do Tai Chi and they told me that there is no beginning and there's no end. So this is with friendships as well. The flow, like the breath, there's no beginning and end.
Jonathan (18:45):
Yeah, yeah. That was really true.
Su (18:47):
I was going to say, thank you for bringing this (together) and making this conversation happen. One thing, about you and Jonathan's already said this: Clark, you jump in, you do the thing, you get it done. So thank you for conversations like this. We need to create opportunity to have these conversations. This is such a precious moment.
I really want to highlight one thing that you already spoke about Clark, which is the intense feeling. And sometimes that feeling is sadness. I really do think people like you, the doers, the people who get stuff done, the people who challenge themselves, who inspire others -- I think they feel deeper. You see (things) as both the yin and the yang. Clark, this is what makes you so powerful. You're able to see and feel that intense sadness, the darkness, and still get up and do all the things that you do. I think that's just amazing. So, thanks.
Clark (19:56):
Su, could you say that again?
Jonathan:
Can you still hear us Clark?
Julian (20:02):
We we're all there except Clark.
Clark (20:04):
I think I missed the the last part of what Su was saying.
Su (20:10):
Oh, do you think it recorded or not?
Clark (20:13):
I think it wasn't. It didn't record
Su (20:17):
I was just talking about what a jerk you are, Clark.
Su, Clark, Jonathan, Julian: LAUGHTER
Clark (20:40):
During one of our session. I remember you said listen to Ram Das, I'm going to read some stanzas of (an original) poem that was inspired by something that Jonathan and I talked about. It's called I am loving awareness.
I am loving awareness
Not you or we but
Myself, learning, loving, my
Time-off from others
I am loving awareness
Not tomorrow’s dawn
Or yesterday’s sun setting?
My may-fly moment
I am loving awareness
A defiant verb? An adjective gently linked
To the next word, thought.
I am loving awareness
My breath, my body:
Dying, living, learning, that Wonderful moment
Julian (21:42):
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