What’s the difference between managing projects and leading projects?
Galen Low is joined by Tracy Hennessey and Pam Butkowski—the VP and SVP of Delivery Management at Hero Digital—to talk about career paths for project managers, specifically what options lie beyond the Senior Project Manager role, what it takes to get there, and what people don’t tell you about how it changes your professional life when you do get there.
What’s the difference between managing projects and leading projects?
Galen Low is joined by Tracy Hennessey and Pam Butkowski—the VP and SVP of Delivery Management at Hero Digital—to talk about career paths for project managers, specifically what options lie beyond the Senior Project Manager role, what it takes to get there, and what people don’t tell you about how it changes your professional life when you do get there.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in. My name is Galen Low with the Digital Project Manager. We are a community of digital professionals on a mission to help each other get skilled, get confident and get connected so that we can amplify the value of project management in a digital world. If you want to hear more about that, head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com. All right, today we're talking about career paths for project managers — and specifically we're talking about what options lie beyond the senior project manager role and what it takes to get there. And also we're going to dive into what people don't tell you about how it changes your professional life when you do get there. Joining me today are Tracy Hennessey and Pam Butkowski, the VP and SVP of Delivery Management at Hero Digital. Tracy, Pam, thanks for being on the show today. Great to see you.
Tracy Hennessy:Hello. Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
Galen Low:We were hamming it up in the green room. So, if this becomes a bit of an eccentric episode, that's why. But, I've known these two for a little while now. We've got background. And I'm really excited to have you both on the show. What you've done in the industry is fascinating. We will dive into that. I won't make any assumptions. Maybe I can just start off by getting you to talk a little bit about what you two do at Hero. Maybe you can help us understand what delivery management is and maybe just like, just a little glimpse of what your day to day looks like.
Pam Butkowski:Heck, yeah. This is the awkward part because Tracy and I are at the same organization. We work very, very closely together every day. And so we are definitely at the finish each other sentences stage of our career.
Tracy Hennessy:That marriage, you know.
Pam Butkowski:Right, right. So either one of us could answer any of these questions. I think we'd say it the same way. So, yeah, we're both at Hero Digital. We are a part of the delivery management practice at Hero. So, I'm the SVP of Delivery Management, which is basically a fancy way of saying project and program management and business analysis and product ownership. So, both disciplines together under one roof. Our team is really responsible for ensuring the successful delivery of all of our client work. Very involved in both the delivery side of the house, obviously, but then our team is also very involved in growth. People like Tracy and the rest of our leads are all really focused on growing our existing accounts, really involved in the sales process, making sure that the things that we're selling are actually achievable. So I, like I said, I'm the SVP of the team. And so I'm the global practice lead and leading the charge for the team. I have a leadership team, Tracy's a part of that. And each of my leaders each kind of sit in a region across the country. Tracy leads our largest region, Northeast. And I'll let her talk a little bit about what she has.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah. Northeast region coming from Austin, Texas. But yeah.
Pam Butkowski:I know, right.
Tracy Hennessy:As a regional lead, I oversee three different portfolios of client accounts across a geographic area of the business. I mostly work with one of the managing directors at Hero to ensure the successful delivery of really all of the professional services in that region with a focus specifically for me on project management, because that's my background. And what that really means is a huge percentage of my time is account growth through business development and client relationship building. So that's definitely a majority of my day to day. I spend a lot of time split between problem solving with the teams on projects when things come up and coaching the PMs on how to ensure successful delivery at the work overall.
Galen Low:Love that. That's a huge operation. You're spread out all across the states, overseas?
Tracy Hennessy:People are everywhere.
Pam Butkowski:All over.
Tracy Hennessy:I mean, that's the thing about like where we are in today's remote society is like, the network can be pretty expansive.
Galen Low:And mostly like web projects, what types of things are you managing the delivery of?
Pam Butkowski:So we are a CX focused digital agency. So everything we do is through the lens of customer experience. We do have deep chops in user experience and design, really skilled and experienced technology team and then data and insights as well as the marketing services team. So we aren't just building websites. We're setting up full kind of end to end customer experiences all the way through media and marketing engagements. So we will build websites and we will do long term managed service of those sites that we launch. But we're really looking at, or what we focus on is building kind of meaningful experiences for our clients' customers.
Galen Low:This came up earlier in the green room when you mentioned it, about finishing each other's sentences, but, especially because folks are spread around and there is some overlap in your role, like, how do you two stay patched together?
Tracy Hennessy:Besides calling each other all the time?
Pam Butkowski:I know. Was actually shocked when I, when we were joking about this before we started recording, when I was saying Tracy's on speed dial. I thought about it. I'm shocked that I haven't called you yet today. I did Slack you at 7am, but I can't believe I haven't actually dialed your phone number yet. We talk a hundred times a day. There is no topic off limits. Partner on everything, even if it's just an FYI. Like, I've got this thing going on, I don't need any help. I've got this thing going on, I need another set of ears. Just true partnership.
Galen Low:I love that, the constant feed.
Tracy Hennessy:It's great because if Pam's role is more focused on team vision and like making sure that our team is being advocated for in the right way within the internal organization and I'm focused a lot more on the client delivery aspect of the work. It's so important for me to have someone like Pam that I can say, this is the stuff that I'm dealing with. And these are the things that we need as an organization to do differently if we want to get in the direction that we're heading. These are the problems we're constantly running into on these client accounts that are due to these bigger challenges. I got someone like Pam, who can work on trying to solve that. And vice versa, Pam can help fill me in on critical initiatives and things like that, that are happening at that company level so that I can make sure that our team focusing on the work are doing what they need to do in order to move in that same direction. So it's super critical to have people on both sides of the house that are really focused and in alignment so that you're marching towards the same goal.
Galen Low:Can I just say how lucky they are to have you two?
Pam Butkowski:I'm lucky to have you, Trace. No, I think another big part of my role, like Tracy said, that kind of give and take between us and making sure that we're informing each other on what's happening within our purview. There are also three other regions within Hero, and so a big part of my day to day is making sure that we have consistency and that the learnings that Tracy has and when she calls the bat phone and says, Oh my god we got this thing going on can you help me out or is this a pain point across the other regions? I make sure that I'm talking to the other leads and saying is this a problem that we're feeling over here? How have you guys solved it? And we just, I'll learn from each other and make sure that globally, as a delivery management practice we're moving in the same direction. We're all aligned.
Galen Low:Yeah, absolutely. And in real time, like most organizations I've worked for, that comes up in quarterly planning maybe, or like annual planning. It's like, Oh, here's some things we dealt with this year. You're like picking up the bat phone. I love it.
Pam Butkowski:Hourly plannIng.
Galen Low:Awesome. Super cool. Just to dive into it, I wanted to talk about just the sort of step beyond senior project manager. And of course it's not the same for everybody. It could be a lot of different things. But what I think is unique about you two and something that maybe not everyone fully appreciates when they meet you is that both of you have a background in project management. It's like you were doing project management and you've gotten to where you've gotten through project management. And at some point in your lives, you were probably a senior project manager or some kind of equivalency thereof. And I thought maybe I just like do a quick hit from each of you. Like when you were that sort of senior project manager role, what was the next role you took on after that? Maybe I'll start with Tracy.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah. So I've worked at a couple of different agencies. They were relatively flat. I technically never held the title of program manager. I, did move from senior project management into leadership from there.
Pam Butkowski:I didn't either. That's crazy.
Tracy Hennessy:No, for a long time, I started running multi stream programs as a project manager by basically taking a singular project and focusing on growing and supporting, turning those into multi stream programs. And so I find that the career path for PMs is not always super linear because we are ultimately a, you said I can swear, get shit done role. And we figure out what needs to happen in order to meet the needs of the business and for me, I started working on coaching more junior team members. I felt like I had a vision for where I wanted them to go and seeing some of the growth that I wanted in some of the projects and like talking to leadership about where those opportunities were. I had a brief stint with a product title that didn't even really matter in the context of it and then moved into a director role for the product and project management groups that were at the agency I was at at the time. And so it became very much defining what we were trying to do as well as figuring out the how with the PMs and how we get there, so.
Galen Low:What I love about it, because I had this question afterwards, it's like, what qualified you for that next role? But as you're talking through that, it's like, you were doing parts of that next role already. Here you are, project manager, senior project manager rather, and you're doing multi channel. So you're looking at it as a program, which forces you to think of it as a business. You're coaching others on your team, like not every senior PM that I know has that as part of their remit. And honestly, maybe it wasn't necessarily part of yours formally, but you were doing it.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah, it was certainly not for a while. I think a lesson I learned early on was that I let myself, like, people find themselves in places where they start doing the role before they get it. And not saying that that's definitely what you should do, but like a lot of people find themselves in it. I think early on in my career, I let myself do it without having it for longer. And now I definitely advocate earlier and more often for myself and where I want to be versus like, just doing it at a lower title. But it's a pretty common story I think for people that the best way to get in it it's, there's not always just going to be some role that jumps in your lap and your manager comes up and says, Hey, I've been thinking about you and I think you'd be perfect for this new job. Like you really want to be your own best advocate for that stuff.
Galen Low:Even what you said about advising, leadership teams, when you're in that senior PM role, also gave you A) that clout and B) that visibility into it. Did it end up being something where you're like, Hey, I'm kind of doing this already. Would you make me, part of the leadership team? Or was it kind of something that came to you?
Tracy Hennessy:No, it was definitely something I advocated for. There wasn't a vacancy like for an official role. There was someone that did depart so there was an opportunity gap and my role became what it was because I saw the need and I, said that I wanted to go for it and yeah, took it from there.
Galen Low:Pam, how about you? You were a senior PM. I can't recall where, I apologize, but what did that next step look like for you?
Pam Butkowski:Yeah, so I did my senior PM stint, Nerdery. So, yeah, it's similar. I never held a program manager title. I moved in from a senior project manager into a role that back in the day we called a team lead. And so I was, similar to Tracy, I was taking on our most complex work already. I was taking on the bigger media engagements, coaching and mentoring more junior PMs. And so that next step for me actually moved into HR management, not program management. Nerdery at the time had very few true programs. Now that I think about it, I think there were two or three that actually required program managers, but we had hundreds of projects that didn't require a program manager level. And so we structured the team back then to be around like small team culture of project managers within Team Lead overseeing them. And so I moved into that role right out of being a senior PM. But yeah, very similar. Was kind of doing the job already. Had the PMs that I was working with day-to-day or working closest to was mentoring, coaching them, helping them kinda through some of their challenges, bouncing ideas off of each other. And so it was a, you know, a seamless move to move into a management role.
Galen Low:I love that. And there's like these themes that are emerging for me, at least you know, and combining it with some other conversations I've had with others. But like, there is this sort of willingness to take on a challenge, right? So in other words, both of you are like, Oh, I was taking on these big projects or these like multi channel, multi stream things or, right? Like the sort of big stuff. Which kind of already a gives you a bit of visibility and elects you as somebody who is like, Oh, that person like takes on challenges, like deals with ambiguity, isn't afraid to take something on and lead it. And then this coaching aspect to things as well, which I think a lot of people miss, I think along the way, maybe because, I talked to some people who don't feel like it's their place to like coach and mentor or like it's too much, right? Like I'm already like juggling all these plates, but when you think about value to an organization, like that's a great way. So, you can take that to any leadership team and be like, listen, I'm like, I'm providing coaching with the team. Everyone's getting better like under my watch. I'm leading some big things that are very important to your business, which kind of gives you that context and the reinforcement where when you advocate for yourself. Assuming the timing is right and all those things, notwithstanding that like, you know, it's a pretty easy yes, right? To be like, well actually yes, even yes, I would hate to lose this.
Tracy Hennessy:I think what's interesting is you mentioned how you really need to advocate and mentor and talk about value to the business. And that's I think really starts to hit on some of the important things that really make a distinction between someone at a program level versus a project level is your mentality really has to shift to be thinking of yourself as a person that's contributing to the business versus someone that's contributing to the team. And so for me, project management has always been my focus. But when I was trying to move up into that new role, it was really about trying to see myself as like a small business owner. And like, how do I understand the decisions that I'm making now are affecting things later? Like, how do the financials happening here impact the business? Like, why does utilization matter? And like, how does the decisions on staffing this project help or hurt another project? And I need to really understand how all of that comes together. Because you're really much more business focused than, project focused when you make that shift.
Pam Butkowski:Yeah. Yeah. I agree with all that. I also think like going back to mentoring and coaching. A lot of people when they think about mentoring, they think I need to take on a mentor, right? Or I need to be checking in with people and asking them how I can help them. Mentoring can be as simple as I just solved this problem, I'm going to post it in our team Slack channel and see if anybody else can learn from it, right? Like I just solved this really big thing or I created this new way of building out my project plans that saved me a ton of time. I'm just going to tell people that I did it and I'm sure that somebody will find value in that. It doesn't mean like I need to be assigned a mentee and I like adding value in different ways. That's, I know we'll talk about this a little bit later too, I'm sure. But now that Tracy and I are in leadership positions, we're hiring program managers we're helping people figure out how to get to the next step in their career. That's one of the big things that we talk about. Are you actively trying to help the team get better?
Galen Low:I'm really glad you called that out because I know a lot of listeners, including like myself in younger years would be like, yeah, but there's no mentoring program. There's no real way to coach or whatever. Like it's not available where I work, but you're absolutely right. It's not necessarily a formal thing. And genuinely, it's not like the, Oh, I'd like to be part of the mentorship program so I can be a mentor and put it on my CV. It's like, I just want to help people do stuff. I'm learning these things on the fly. I'm gonna, broadcast it out. And like, in some ways, putting your shame to the side. Because someone might be like listen, like I've got a better way, but I was keeping it to myself. But still like the spirit of it is improving the team, which is improving the business, which is Tracy, as you mentioned, well beyond the, did I deliver this project good, right? Like it's thinking outside of that, you know, taking the blinders off a little bit and understanding your value, like within the organization.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah. You're so much shifting from am I doing this thing correctly to am I enabling other people to do what they need to do well? And it's just a big change for where you need to spend your time and where you need to focus your energy and then how you message and create the right level of visibility to what those things are that you're doing to others is just as big a part of it.
Galen Low:I want to dig in to, you know, answer the mail on what I teed up at the beginning, which is sometimes, we have this sort of pursuit of a career path. And you just want to take the next step up, and that's what you ought to do. But I find it's one of those things that we don't talk about a lot of the realities of what that actually means. Okay, yeah, you got a promotion. Everyone on LinkedIn goes, it gives you the applause emoji and that's all fine and good. But some of these are pretty big jumps. I know we talked about the notion that yes, we're doing the next job already and that's how we advocate for ourselves into that next role. But then when you get it, like sometimes things change pretty dramatically. And I wondered if you had any stories just about, some of the like more unexpected ways that your life changed, like maybe personally or professionally when you took on your new role.
Pam Butkowski:Yeah, I think we talk about this on our team a lot, actually, the jump from project management to program management. It's the biggest one in our kind of linear groped past. It is, like Tracy said, your purview gets a lot bigger, right? You're concerned about the business now. You are thinking about financial health, not of just your project, but of the organization. You're thinking about utilization. You're trying to figure out how to run a P&L, like it's a lot different and it's a lot of added pressure. Just the scale at which you care about things changes. I think moving from project management into more program and portfolio management, some of the biggest things that I felt in that jump were, I mean, I joke around about this quite a bit. I call it the cell phone move. When you're a project manager, you Slack with your team and you work through things nine to five and you give people to do lists and you log off and sometimes you have to come back on. But if you open your computer to work at night, you're coming into some Slacks that are waiting for you and you have your to do list, right? Once you move into program management and into more leadership roles, you start giving out your cell phone number. And people don't care if you are, it's 7:30 at night and you're trying to get your kids into bed. If there's a problem, they're going to call you or they'll text you. And you don't you kind of see it with you a little bit more than you, you did when you were a PM. So that was an adjustment for me, for sure. I also think the your exposure to leadership at the organization that you're in is bigger. And so you start to hold yourself differently, right? You're no longer having meetings eight hours a day with a developer in a sweatpants, right? You're starting to have meetings with your executive team. You're starting to do more executive level reporting and just presenting yourself differently is a big part of it too.
Galen Low:Did you find that you were doing it already, but that was kind of like, icing for the organization, but now you're expected to do that thing does the pressure change? It's like, now it's not, it's so great that you're doing this coaching, mentoring, thinking about the business working on a process, leading the team. Now it's like, hey, why aren't you leading the team harder, coaching harder, doing this better? Did that pressure change where you're like, Oh, I thought I was doing great before, and now people are really breathing down my neck to do this thing that I thought I was already doing?
Pam Butkowski:I didn't feel that as much, but I think that Galen, you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said that the people who most easily transitioned into this role are the ones who are fearless. Right? The ones who aren't afraid to take on new challenges and say, I'm just gonna take this thing head on I can face this, I will figure it out. So, yeah, I think the pressure points change a little bit, but you rise from the occasion. Are we saying, this is my new normal, let's go. Tracy, what do you think?
Tracy Hennessy:One trap I feel like a lot of people fall into, especially when they're in that I was doing it and then I moved into it officially, finally, whatever. You have to let go of your old role and don't fall into the trap of, it's now a yes/and on your old role, because that's where you end up in a situation where you're stressed out, you're like, now I'm just doing more and more and more. You have to be laser focused on what your new priorities are, and you have to delegate and figure out ways to enable the other people to take on things. Trust people to do things that maybe they won't do it at the same level as you, but they shouldn't because they're not at the same role as you anymore. And so like trust in letting your team be better and learn to grow themselves so that you can, instead of just driving yourself off a cliff of stress, like figure out what's most important for you to spend time on so that others can take on things that used to be in your purview and no longer need to be. I feel like that's a really common scenario. I feel like the other thing that, happens at various points in people's careers is like, for a lot of people, they get promoted. And if their peers aren't like, they become a manager of someone that used to be their peer. And some people get weird and anxious about it. I remember the first time it happened to me. I was like, Oh my God, this person's not going to trust me or believe in me as the leader because like last week I was like their peer and we used to bitch about stuff together and now I have to have this different lens. And the reality is it's only weird if you let it be. And I think it really ultimately comes down to just be confident in yourself, know that you were given the title and a new role and a new challenge because you've earned it. And that as long as you see yourself in that new position and you build a still trusting space for the people that you're working with naturally, the rest of it will just figure itself out.
Pam Butkowski:I think those are two huge points, Tracy.
Galen Low:Right? I see that the other flip is what we don't talk about as much, right? Like you mentioned, you start by doing the next job until you get that job, in some cases. But then you might spend a bunch of time still doing your old job, and that weighs you down. And I've seen people like, yes, the trust thing, I 100% agree. And also this kind of almost clamoring for familiarity. Because, you know, even if you're somebody who's super wired to just address ambiguity and tackle a challenge there's still that sort of desire to be like, here's something I really know. Everything else is new right now, but the thing I know is I can go back to what I was doing before and put my hands on that as my rock. But sometimes that's the thing that actually weighs people down. It doesn't let them succeed at their next role. And I've seen it happen where people you know, they are either like demoted or exited after a certain period of time because they weren't focused on figuring out the new job. They're too fixated on trying to, I don't know, preserve the sort of legacy or still have a hand in what they were doing before instead of focusing on the next thing. That's actually, that's really interesting. And I also love that just addressing awkwardness head on, because I think you're right. It's happened to me before too.
Pam Butkowski:Let's be honest that like, that challenge of letting go of your old job is not as hard for people in other disciplines or in other practices. We're a bunch of control freaks. We want everything perfect. We want to make sure that everything's getting done. We're good at what we do because we like to check boxes. Because we like to finish the day with our complete and to do list. We want everything to be buttoned up and perfect all the time. And it's really hard for us to let go. Not just because we're moving into a management position, but because it truly is in our DNA to make sure that everything is taken care of. And so we really have to focus on it.
Galen Low:I think you're entirely right. That resonates a lot. One thing that we've been talking about is just sort of like, yeah, that team mentorship. And yes, maybe a bit like informally at first, but like now in your roles as I understand it, you're quite deeply involved in planning the careers of your direct reports, your teams, and potentially the direct reports of your direct reports. I can't remember how many layers there are now, but like thinking through all of this kind of from the other side. Looking for that next generation of people who are going to tackle that challenge and get beyond a senior PM role. What are some of the things that you're looking for in those folks? As they get from, especially that project management layer into that program management layer.
Pam Butkowski:There are a number of different things. I think we already talked about the fearless one, right? Not afraid to jump into things that they've never done before, taking on challenges head on. But to layer onto that a little bit more, it's also seeking out new challenges. Not waiting for them to be handed to you, right? A lot of times we see senior PMs who are waiting for that challenge, their make or break project, and waiting for it to hit their dashboards. If there's a senior PM who's like, I heard that we're working on this thing, I want to take it. Right? That's something I've never done before. It's going to push my boundaries. These are the areas where I know that I'm going to have to focus and I'm going to have to like, make sure that I'm really buttoned up on because I've never done it before, but give it to me. They're going to get there faster. Promise. And like, seeking out those challenges is a big one. Also, just already showing up as a leader within the team. So I said earlier if you solve a problem or come up with a new way of doing something, tell the other people you work with. It doesn't matter if they don't report to you. It doesn't matter that they're all your peers and they're trying to do the same thing that you are every day. Just help the team. People will already see you as a leader if you're actively trying to help the team get better and stronger and faster every day. And so it does make that shift, like Tracy talked about earlier, that awkward now you're managing your peers. That becomes less awkward if they already see you as a leader.
Tracy Hennessy:That's super important. I feel like it's that hunger for the next thing. It's also showing the maturity that you understand what you're trying to go after. So again, as program managers, like you're so much more T-shaped, you're not only focused on output, but you're really now focused on outcomes. You need to understand what's the right altitude that you want to be sitting at. I think one thing that's really hard for certain people is, Pam and I talk about this a lot, being a program manager is not at all the same thing as being a super senior project manager. Like it really is a very different role with different priorities. And for example, you now really need to care about governance. So if you have multiple projects, if there's multiple PMs that are on it, do they have a standard and consistent way of working so that our clients feel like they have the same experience project to project? Do you have avenues for leaders to have visibility on how you're doing programmatically and know how that they can tap in and ask you questions about things that are going on and you know all of the details that you need to know without being bogged down too much in the weeds? Also, like risk management, do you understand all the different types of risks that are out there and which ones to care about. And when do I go to Pam and say, Pam, you really need to freaking care about this thing or I really need your help in figuring out how we solve this thing. Versus, hey, this is something that I want the teams to solve or I need to go elsewhere for the other teams know about it. Having an understanding about what risks impact the org versus the team versus the program and who needs to know what like that is such a huge important part of the day to day.
Galen Low:I love the word altitude as well and that it's like selectable like find the one that works for you and then there's kind of like I don't know what I envision that just like sorting hats in a way. Or it's just kind of like, cool is this something I escalate? Is this something I let the team solve? Is this something I solve myself? But also the lens of you're right, the business lens, right? At the program level, it almost requires a business understanding, either of your client's business or of your own business or agency, and where you fit in there. One thing I wanted to come back to Tracy, you were just curious. You were like, I need to understand how this works. I need to understand, why utilization is important. Why like this sort of program and the program scheduling and, and, and sort of resource allocation. And you sought that out or in terms of understanding the business better. Did you have any mentors yourself or people that you would call on to be like, Hey, my friend in finance, tell me more about this thing so I get it more.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah. Actually, that is a huge part of it. I mean, one of my very first jobs, like the reason why I got it is because the person hiring, it was an internal hire within the organization. She's like, you're the only person that went to the person actively doing the job and said, what do you actually think this job is like, and what do you really need to be successful and what truly matters to do this job well in your eyes. And so finding those relationships of people that you can ask and try to understand what they care about is really helpful. There's some like tactical stuff you can do to like, I literally took a short course on, I think it was like financial management for non finance managers or something like that to just help me understand the sort of MBA 101 of how businesses are run. So when people are talking about PNLs and all this stuff, I'm like, what the hell is a PNL? I figured that stuff out through discovery. And I think that what is also so important is, when you're in a business, everybody has priorities, right? And so with the managing directors that I'm working with today, I know what they're focused on and the conversations that they have to have with other people week by week about what they're being asked for. So I need to make sure I understand their priorities. So I bring the right type of information to enable them. And so if you don't understand how a business works in general, it's really hard for you to understand the priorities of all of those roles. So make relationships where you can ask those types of questions, write shit down you don't understand and try to figure it out and look it up and just understand that knowing the vision for like, how do we scope and sell our projects? How does the finances impact these other decisions that we make? How does the shift of resources change the way that we're recognizing things as a business all go such a long way.
Galen Low:Just to round things up, there's one thing that we haven't really been talking about and that's just that in this current market, maybe in a lot of different sort of job climates, like not every organization is going to be able to promote somebody beyond senior PM. Also in tandem with that, like people will listen to this podcast and suddenly you're going to have five go getters who are, fearless, like tackling challenges, coaching their team. And there might not be five openings, at that next step. But I'm just thinking through like, yeah, I mean, we're framing this as promotions and we're framing this as climbing the ladder. I think we're wired to do that, like in our work culture here. But for folks who are at the senior PM level right now are there ways that they can keep growing in their careers and like expanding their skill sets, even in a situation where maybe there's like a freeze on promotions or that like next role might not be available to them? Like how can they keep growing even if there's no role for them to step into like right now?
Pam Butkowski:We've been talking about this a lot. So the step from project manager to program manager is usually as needed step, right? It's one where you get promoted into it when there's an opening. And that's the kind of first time in our careers that that's the case. Up until then moving from a coordinator and associate into a project manager and senior project manager. Those are all promotions that are all performance based, right? You're ready to do the next thing. Here you go. It isn't dependent on your makeup of accounts and projects. It isn't dependent on kind of even like the financial state of your business. It isn't dependent on what your pipeline and your forecast looks like. It's dependent on when you're ready for it. And then moving into program, it is completely dependent on do I have a program for you. And so we've been talking a lot about like how do we, because we have a lot of, at Hero, a lot of really strong senior PMs. And there isn't a program opening right now, but I also don't want those people to this team of really strong, skilled, critical thinking senior project managers to feel stagnant, or feel like they're not being pushed, or feel like they've plateaued at Hero. I certainly don't want them thinking that they need to leave to get new opportunities. So, we want to find new ways to give them new challenges, keep them stimulated, feel like they're continuing to advance their careers. Things like cross training into different technologies, into different types of projects, right? You've never run a commerce project before, it's completely different from building a marketing site. New challenge, take it. You've never worked with any clients in this industry before, right? Like you've never worked in healthcare. It's completely different from working with the CMO of a retail brand. Take it. Like cross training into different types of work, I think it's a big one. Also giving people leadership opportunities within the company. If you've got like work constantly doing different internal initiatives and pulling in our project managers and our senior project managers to help with those things. Like the first thing that comes to mind is we just went with that Trace last year that we redid all of our templates and created a new template library with all of our status reports, our RAID logs, our deliverables trackers and everything. And we had this kind of a program layer leader sitting on the initiative as the initiative owner, but the work was done by senior PMs. And they were the ones sitting in front of the team saying, here's our new template library. Here's when you're going to use it, right? The senior PMs were rolling it out to the team, not the program director. And so giving them opportunities to be a leader at the company, even without the title, so that they gain exposure, they continue to grow in different ways that aren't project related, that they would experience if they were in that program manager role giving them those growth opportunities, I think is important.
Galen Low:I love that because it also, it is often the case where you get the next role, or somebody ascends to that next role. But they haven't really got the training of the sort of management leadership part of it. And I know a lot of orgs are trying to focus more on leadership training, but especially in an agency context, I love that. Right? Cause it still gives you that, you know, the visibility on a project that is valuable to the business, not just client work. And you get to exercise this sort of like leadership skills and bolster your profile, that we mentioned earlier about the more you demonstrate leadership, the more sort of obvious and natural it will be when you do get that next role. And because everyone's like, Oh yeah, that person is a leader, like well earned.
Tracy Hennessy:Yeah, absolutely. I already beat the drum on financial literacy, so I won't go into a tangent on that again. But, the other thing, feedback I heard when I was early on, which always used to frustrate me so much, is people would be like, if you're a PM, you just gotta be more strategic. And you're like, I'm a PM, I think in black and white, what do you mean strategic? Give me tactical stuff. And that's a frustrating thing, I think, for a lot of people earlier in their careers, to wrap their brains around that. But it really comes down to like, for example, if you're someone who today helps execute projects, get involved in as much upfront vision definition and scoping for projects as you can. So you can understand what were the goals of what this client's trying to actually accomplish? And then how did we come up with the right approach for them? Not everything we offer is the same cookie cutter approach. So the more I can understand how the vision turns into reality, the more I can start to follow that line and build a narrative for myself. I also think it's worthwhile to take a moment and look at your project and reflect on how your project matters in the context of the business. So like, how does your project align to whatever your current company goals are or what your client's business goals are? If you don't know that answer, you better figure that out. Because if you don't know what your client's goals are for why you're trying to accomplish something like that's one of the first things that you can do. And so again, I went back to that, like small business owner analogy. If you were running the business, where would you want to spend more time and add more value and just start thinking about those moments to try to just get more practice and thinking about something with a more strategic lens. Doing that will help you come off again as a more cool and calm and composed leader because you "get it" a little bit more than some of the other people around you do. And so all of those things together, I think, really are some of the things you can start to do in the near term to line yourself up for what's next.
Pam Butkowski:Yeah, I think layering on to that, Tracy, you talked about this a little bit earlier, too, about like prioritizing and understanding like what you need to focus on. I think defining what good enough looks like and being okay with it is a big piece of it too, right? Like, when we all, like, when project managers get underwater, when they're really busy, you start to deprioritize the stuff that is actually really important, but it's easy to deprioritize, right? You stop sending out weekly status reports. You stop keeping your RAID log updated. These are fundamental things that have to happen. And when you move into the program layer, that amplifies. But only having so much time in the day and focusing on what really matters is even harder at that level. Because you still want to do the crap that you were doing before. You still want to fill out your weekly status report. You still want to say, Oh, I found a risk. I'm going to go put it in the RAID log, like the PMs have to take that. So starting to build that muscle of that thing matters, that thing doesn't. And this is why when you're in a project manager role, it's going to set you up for success when you get no program layer, you're not trying to take everything on. You're saying, I'm going to let the devs solve this problem without me sitting on a Zoom call watching them, because I have to do my status report. That's important. And I'm going to trust them to do this. And start trusting your team, start letting go, start building safety nets underneath the people you're working with, and let them fall into the nets. Don't catch them right away, because that's, you have to do that in a program layer. You have to be comfortable with people potentially failing.
Galen Low:I love that and I've seen a lot of folks fall into that trap of creating this sense of learned helplessness, right? Because they're always in there doing the thing. Teams like, well, I guess I don't need to solve problems anymore. I'll just, take it to my PM. And then, yeah, it doesn't create that sustainability.
Pam Butkowski:Mom will take care of it.
Galen Low:Yeah. I've seen it happen time and time again. I thought I'd round out actually with one last surprise question, which is just we've been talking, around this notion of getting a promotion. And yes, sometimes there will be a role available, and sometimes there won't, and you should advocate for yourself. And I think we've been touching on this throughout, but I wanted to just put a fine tip on it, which is that if you're someone who loves being a senior PM, and you don't want to continue on and become, a program manager, like what are some ways that you can not let that be something that lowers your profile in an organization? Where, ambition is rewarded and shouldn't you want to be a manager of people and all these things and maybe the answer is actually no, that's not for me, but I'd like to be like the best senior PM ever. What is a good way to frame yourself and your profile within an agency, like, for example, like Hero to be like, yeah, I'm valuable. I'm a killer senior PM. That's what I want to do and you need me.
Pam Butkowski:So first of all, please come work for us because those are my favorite people. No, I think you're totally right, Galen. It's okay to say that next, just because it's the next rung on the ladder, it doesn't mean that I'm going to be happy there. That level of self awareness of what's going to make you happy and what you're good at and what you want to wake up and do 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week, I mean, we work in an agency, 60 hours a week, that it's something you like and it's going to keep you fulfilled. And so I think it's totally fine to say, I really like what I'm doing. I don't want to be a manager. But that's when being proactive about continuing to grow your skill sets about not getting stagnant about not being complacent. That's when it gets really important, right? So if you want to stay in that role and you say I want to be a senior PM but I want to be the best one ever, you have to bring the opportunities to the table. You have to bring the ideas to your manager to say I don't want to be a manager. Here's what I do want to do. I want to try this new thing. I want to be the expert in this space. I want to be a SME in all of our data projects. Right? Find your place. Even though you're not an HR manager, doesn't mean that you can't be a leader. Find your thing that you're going to be the best at, and that you are really excited about, and go all in.
Tracy Hennessy:I definitely agree with all the things that Pam just said. I mean, unfortunate reality, I do think you need to analyze like the profile of the company that you're working at, because there are places where, you do hit a little bit of a career ceiling if you're not at the right place that really values to track for expertise. I mean, there's a reason why some of the bigger tech organizations have an IC path and they have a manager path because they know that those are two really different skill sets. And so it's important to make sure the company you're at understands and values that. But just like Pam said, honing your skills, like you really have to sharpen your craft and make sure that you can tackle a wide range of projects. So you're still showing growth, but you don't have to become a people manager to do that, so important. There's a place for everybody. I've had great PMs on teams in the past that are just like, I want to stay as a doer, not a manager for a long time. But if they continue to show growth and expertise and flexibility in what they can do, it's gold.
Pam Butkowski:To be the Debbie Downer on it, though, if you're in that position, you do need to understand that pay bans do exist. And so if you don't want to move into a program manager role, you want to stay a senior PM forever, I think we have to talk about the reality that at some point your salary will cap, right? You can't make $400K a year as a senior PM. And you have to be okay with that, right? But if that's what you want to do and it's going to make you happy, I think the trade off, you need to decide if that's right for you.
Galen Low:Well called out. Absolutely. There is a monetary aspect to this as well and, the rate of inflation may not be traveling at the same rate as how these pay bands get updated. But yeah, I love all that. I mean, I think, to your point, like strong senior PMs who like the IC path and want to keep growing in that are folks that you want on your team. And I think that says a lot, even just for folks who are a bit self conscious about the fact that, do I need to figure something else out or is this a, is this an actual sort of viable option for them? So I think that gives a lot of context to that. This is great. This has been great. Thank you so much for being on the show. I honestly that was like a course distilled into, what I'm tracking is about 45 minutes.
Tracy Hennessy:I'll send you my invoice.
Galen Low:And actually, when you do, please send me that finance for dummies book, finance for non finance people. I'm like, yeah, I think I need that actually. I'll also include it in the show notes. Honestly, thank you both for hanging out with me today. It's been a lot of fun. I've been just dying to have this episode. So I'm glad I got you both at the same time. Thank you again for sharing your wisdom.
Tracy Hennessy:Thanks so much, Galen. Really appreciate it.
Galen Low:All right folks, there you have it. As always, if you'd like to join the conversation with over a thousand like minded project management champions, come join our collective! Head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership to learn more. And if you like what you heard today, please subscribe and stay in touch on thedigitalprojectmanager.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.