{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":27.431,"endTime":28.631,"body":"Hey,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":27.431,"endTime":28.631,"body":"it's Michael from the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":28.631,"endTime":29.82,"body":"Digital Project Manager."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":30.061,"endTime":32.67,"body":"Today's episode is a recording"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":30.061,"endTime":32.67,"body":"of an event that we hosted"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":32.671,"endTime":33.471000000000004,"body":"through our membership."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":33.97,"endTime":36.120000000000005,"body":"The community had asked"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":33.97,"endTime":36.120000000000005,"body":"for insights and advice on"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":36.120000000000005,"endTime":38.57,"body":"how to plan your career as"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":36.120000000000005,"endTime":38.57,"body":"a digital project manager."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":38.870000000000005,"endTime":41.99,"body":"So we reached out to our"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":38.870000000000005,"endTime":41.99,"body":"resident DPM expert on career"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":42.0,"endTime":44.290000000000006,"body":"planning, Pam Butkowski."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":44.315,"endTime":46.655,"body":"In this session, she covered"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":44.315,"endTime":46.655,"body":"questions from our community"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":46.655,"endTime":48.955,"body":"about the difference between"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":46.655,"endTime":48.955,"body":"working in agencies versus"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":48.955,"endTime":51.945,"body":"working in-house, where to go"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":48.955,"endTime":51.945,"body":"once we've topped out as senior"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":51.945,"endTime":56.504,"body":"DPMs, what kind of soft and hard"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":51.945,"endTime":56.504,"body":"skills to build, and a lot more."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":57.114000000000004,"endTime":59.235,"body":"If you want to stay up to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":57.114000000000004,"endTime":59.235,"body":"date on all membership events,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":59.385,"endTime":61.785000000000004,"body":"and get the opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":59.385,"endTime":61.785000000000004,"body":"attend and submit questions"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":61.785000000000004,"endTime":64.855,"body":"to our bench of DPM experts,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":61.785000000000004,"endTime":64.855,"body":"then check out membership at"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":64.955,"endTime":67.685,"body":"thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":69.235,"endTime":71.315,"body":"If you don't already know"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":69.235,"endTime":71.315,"body":"Pam, Pam is the Senior"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":71.315,"endTime":74.055,"body":"Vice President of Delivery"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":71.315,"endTime":74.055,"body":"Management at Hero Digital."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":74.295,"endTime":77.14500000000001,"body":"But believe it or not, she"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":74.295,"endTime":77.14500000000001,"body":"started out her career as"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":77.14500000000001,"endTime":80.614,"body":"an intern and went from"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":77.14500000000001,"endTime":80.614,"body":"intern to account executive,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":80.994,"endTime":83.714,"body":"from account exec to media"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":80.994,"endTime":83.714,"body":"coordinator, to project"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":83.714,"endTime":86.724,"body":"manager, to senior project"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":83.714,"endTime":86.724,"body":"manager, program director,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":86.724,"endTime":90.515,"body":"director, vice president, and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":86.724,"endTime":90.515,"body":"now senior vice president."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":90.805,"endTime":94.185,"body":"So Pam has learned a thing or"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":90.805,"endTime":94.185,"body":"two about planning a career,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":94.205,"endTime":96.31400000000001,"body":"figuring out which skills"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":94.205,"endTime":96.31400000000001,"body":"to learn, which questions to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":96.31400000000001,"endTime":100.16,"body":"ask, and which people to talk"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":96.31400000000001,"endTime":100.16,"body":"to, which is why we're super"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":100.16,"endTime":101.72,"body":"excited to have Pam here today."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":102.05,"endTime":103.05,"body":"So welcome, Pam!"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":103.65,"endTime":103.78,"body":"Hello!"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":105.11,"endTime":106.64,"body":"Nice to meet everybody."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":106.91,"endTime":107.839,"body":"Pam, how"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":106.91,"endTime":107.839,"body":"are you spending your"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":107.84,"endTime":108.63,"body":"free time right now?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":108.73,"endTime":112.18900000000001,"body":"I have two kids"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":108.73,"endTime":112.18900000000001,"body":"and they are heavy into sports."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":112.249,"endTime":113.03,"body":"They're 10 and 7."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":113.049,"endTime":116.39,"body":"So all of my free time goes"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":113.049,"endTime":116.39,"body":"to baseball, gymnastics"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":116.39,"endTime":117.149,"body":"and dance classes."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":117.6,"endTime":120.5,"body":"I know we've got gymnastics"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":117.6,"endTime":120.5,"body":"tonight, so that's how"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":120.64,"endTime":121.37,"body":"we're spending the night."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":122.08,"endTime":124.46000000000001,"body":"Is there a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":122.08,"endTime":124.46000000000001,"body":"time where we get to have"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":124.46000000000001,"endTime":125.84,"body":"our own hobbies once again?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":126.13,"endTime":126.64,"body":"And do you think?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":126.76,"endTime":127.76,"body":"Man, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":127.82000000000001,"endTime":130.85,"body":"But I will tell you, we're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":127.82000000000001,"endTime":130.85,"body":"really into this whole drop"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":130.97,"endTime":133.31,"body":"off thing now that they're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":130.97,"endTime":133.31,"body":"old enough to just drop them"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":133.31,"endTime":135.579,"body":"off at the activities and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":133.31,"endTime":135.579,"body":"then go do something else."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":135.59,"endTime":138.10899999999998,"body":"So we're dropping off my"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":135.59,"endTime":138.10899999999998,"body":"daughter at gymnastics and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":138.10899999999998,"endTime":139.599,"body":"then my husband and I are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":138.10899999999998,"endTime":139.599,"body":"going to happy hour, getting"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":139.599,"endTime":141.76,"body":"in a little date, come back"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":139.599,"endTime":141.76,"body":"an hour later and get her."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":141.96,"endTime":144.01999999999998,"body":"What we've been"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":141.96,"endTime":144.01999999999998,"body":"doing is dropping off and then"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":144.01999999999998,"endTime":146.99,"body":"heading to Home Depot, which is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":144.01999999999998,"endTime":146.99,"body":"another way to spend your time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":147.275,"endTime":149.35500000000002,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":147.275,"endTime":149.35500000000002,"body":"equally as amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":150.824,"endTime":153.364,"body":"So today"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":150.824,"endTime":153.364,"body":"we're talking about climbing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":153.364,"endTime":154.665,"body":"the ladder in a way."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":155.234,"endTime":157.734,"body":"It would be awesome if climbing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":155.234,"endTime":157.734,"body":"the ladder was straightforward."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":157.795,"endTime":160.084,"body":"But in reality, it's actually"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":157.795,"endTime":160.084,"body":"more if you know that MC"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":160.085,"endTime":162.905,"body":"Escher painting where the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":160.085,"endTime":162.905,"body":"staircases are like upside"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":162.914,"endTime":165.274,"body":"down and sideways and they"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":162.914,"endTime":165.274,"body":"head in every direction."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":165.504,"endTime":166.684,"body":"So it's not always that easy."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":166.99,"endTime":169.37,"body":"And it's actually not always"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":166.99,"endTime":169.37,"body":"an obligation to, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":169.41,"endTime":172.08,"body":"some people are project"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":169.41,"endTime":172.08,"body":"managers and they like to do"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":172.08,"endTime":173.41,"body":"that and that's totally fine."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":173.8,"endTime":177.089,"body":"But if you're on this call,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":173.8,"endTime":177.089,"body":"you're probably interested"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":177.099,"endTime":180.79,"body":"in knowing how to get to the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":177.099,"endTime":180.79,"body":"next step, whether that's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":180.83,"endTime":183.349,"body":"entering PM or looking for"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":180.83,"endTime":183.349,"body":"something completely new."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":183.769,"endTime":187.05,"body":"But you probably have questions,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":183.769,"endTime":187.05,"body":"so today we're going to dive"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":187.05,"endTime":188.53,"body":"into some possible answers."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":188.79,"endTime":191.58,"body":"That being said, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":188.79,"endTime":191.58,"body":"dive into our first question and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":191.58,"endTime":193.12,"body":"then we'll hand it over to Pam."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":193.5,"endTime":197.045,"body":"So how easy is it for a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":193.5,"endTime":197.045,"body":"DPM, a digital project"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":197.065,"endTime":200.345,"body":"manager, to switch between"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":197.065,"endTime":200.345,"body":"agency and non-agency work?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":200.665,"endTime":202.575,"body":"And then maybe we'll start"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":200.665,"endTime":202.575,"body":"with that and do the follow"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":202.575,"endTime":204.845,"body":"up after or lead into it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":205.365,"endTime":206.455,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":206.825,"endTime":211.57,"body":"You know, it is, I will"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":206.825,"endTime":211.57,"body":"say it is pure to go from"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":211.575,"endTime":214.09,"body":"agency to non-agency than"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":211.575,"endTime":214.09,"body":"the other way around."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":214.47,"endTime":218.61,"body":"Agency land is pretty"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":214.47,"endTime":218.61,"body":"crazy and fast-paced and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":218.61,"endTime":219.96,"body":"you're juggling a lot."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":220.44,"endTime":223.62,"body":"And so there are agencies"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":220.44,"endTime":223.62,"body":"that prefer people"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":223.625,"endTime":224.88,"body":"with agency experience."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":225.18,"endTime":227.43,"body":"The other way around is a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":225.18,"endTime":227.43,"body":"little bit more simple, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":227.43,"endTime":229.71,"body":"A little bit easier to go"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":227.43,"endTime":229.71,"body":"from an agency to in-house."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":230.72,"endTime":234.11,"body":"That said, it's all about how"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":230.72,"endTime":234.11,"body":"you present yourself, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":234.34,"endTime":238.59,"body":"Even if you are an in-house PM,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":234.34,"endTime":238.59,"body":"you still have clients, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":238.59,"endTime":240.349,"body":"They work for the same"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":238.59,"endTime":240.349,"body":"company as you, but"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":240.35,"endTime":241.19,"body":"they're still your clients."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":241.699,"endTime":245.11,"body":"You are still managing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":241.699,"endTime":245.11,"body":"competing priorities."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":245.17,"endTime":248.07,"body":"You are still going up"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":245.17,"endTime":248.07,"body":"against the same challenges"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":248.1,"endTime":249.379,"body":"that agency PMs are."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":249.709,"endTime":252.799,"body":"You might have a little bit"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":249.709,"endTime":252.799,"body":"less, like at an agency, you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":252.799,"endTime":255.69,"body":"have a little bit less like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":252.799,"endTime":255.69,"body":"ownership or skin in the game"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":255.69,"endTime":259.28,"body":"or influence over your clients"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":255.69,"endTime":259.28,"body":"because you are working for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":259.28,"endTime":260.68,"body":"them, not with them, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":260.99,"endTime":263.18,"body":"And so I think that's the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":260.99,"endTime":263.18,"body":"biggest difference is navigating"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":263.19,"endTime":266.09000000000003,"body":"that you're working with each"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":263.19,"endTime":266.09000000000003,"body":"other versus for one another."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":266.379,"endTime":269.62,"body":"But if you present it as,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":266.379,"endTime":269.62,"body":"listen, I work with clients."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":269.879,"endTime":271.14,"body":"They work for the same"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":269.879,"endTime":271.14,"body":"company as me, but I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":271.15999999999997,"endTime":272.25,"body":"treat them as my client."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":272.69,"endTime":276.33000000000004,"body":"I think it, it is easy to switch"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":272.69,"endTime":276.33000000000004,"body":"back and forth between the two."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":276.64,"endTime":278.249,"body":"It's all about how you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":276.64,"endTime":278.249,"body":"position it, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":278.869,"endTime":280.519,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":278.869,"endTime":280.519,"body":"mean, I guess to lead into"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":280.619,"endTime":282.98900000000003,"body":"the follow up there, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":280.619,"endTime":282.98900000000003,"body":"you mentioned they're both"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":283.02,"endTime":285.21000000000004,"body":"equally stressful, but is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":283.02,"endTime":285.21000000000004,"body":"one easier than the other?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":285.629,"endTime":286.58900000000006,"body":"Different"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":285.629,"endTime":286.58900000000006,"body":"kind of stress."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":286.91999999999996,"endTime":289.1,"body":"So full transparency, I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":286.91999999999996,"endTime":289.1,"body":"have never worked in-house."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":289.269,"endTime":292.35,"body":"I've worked agency and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":289.269,"endTime":292.35,"body":"consultancy my whole career."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":292.55999999999995,"endTime":295.33000000000004,"body":"And so I can really, I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":292.55999999999995,"endTime":295.33000000000004,"body":"can speak a lot to the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":295.33000000000004,"endTime":297.1,"body":"stress on agency side."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":297.4,"endTime":300.48900000000003,"body":"In-house though, some of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":297.4,"endTime":300.48900000000003,"body":"the stressors are more"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":300.48900000000003,"endTime":301.89,"body":"about conflict resolution."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":301.89,"endTime":304.30999999999995,"body":"They're more about, these are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":301.89,"endTime":304.30999999999995,"body":"people you work with every day"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":304.30999999999995,"endTime":306.149,"body":"and you're going to continue"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":304.30999999999995,"endTime":306.149,"body":"to work with even after"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":306.149,"endTime":307.279,"body":"your project is over, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":307.279,"endTime":310.25,"body":"Your clients go away if you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":307.279,"endTime":310.25,"body":"agency side, but If you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":310.37,"endTime":312.19000000000005,"body":"in-house, you're going to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":310.37,"endTime":312.19000000000005,"body":"work with people for years"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":312.19000000000005,"endTime":314.03999999999996,"body":"and years, and you want to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":312.19000000000005,"endTime":314.03999999999996,"body":"tread lightly, and you want"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":314.03999999999996,"endTime":316.46000000000004,"body":"to maintain relationships,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":314.03999999999996,"endTime":316.46000000000004,"body":"and I could see how that would"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":316.47,"endTime":318.13,"body":"be very stressful as well."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":318.47,"endTime":321.30999999999995,"body":"Now that said, I have"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":318.47,"endTime":321.30999999999995,"body":"some of the craziest, most"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":321.30999999999995,"endTime":324.06899999999996,"body":"stressful projects I've ever"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":321.30999999999995,"endTime":324.06899999999996,"body":"seen have been ones that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":324.06899999999996,"endTime":325.169,"body":"have been run by in-house."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":325.43899999999996,"endTime":327.72900000000004,"body":"When I was in consulting,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":325.43899999999996,"endTime":327.72900000000004,"body":"for example, I led a delivery"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":327.72900000000004,"endTime":329.58900000000006,"body":"management practice or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":327.72900000000004,"endTime":329.58900000000006,"body":"delivery leadership practice"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":329.59000000000003,"endTime":334.14,"body":"in consulting for a while, and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":329.59000000000003,"endTime":334.14,"body":"we had some consultants that we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":334.41999999999996,"endTime":335.73,"body":"were working with a client on."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":336.07500000000005,"endTime":339.615,"body":"As scrum masters, we kind of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":336.07500000000005,"endTime":339.615,"body":"staff on their team and the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":339.615,"endTime":342.92499999999995,"body":"whole project was run by their"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":339.615,"endTime":342.92499999999995,"body":"internal team and agency wasn't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":342.92499999999995,"endTime":346.80499999999995,"body":"running it and it was the most"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":342.92499999999995,"endTime":346.80499999999995,"body":"chaotic, stressful, fast-paced"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":346.82500000000005,"endTime":347.70500000000004,"body":"project I've ever seen."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":348.025,"endTime":351.20500000000004,"body":"So I think you're going to get"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":348.025,"endTime":351.20500000000004,"body":"a taste for like the pace of the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":351.21400000000006,"endTime":355.55499999999995,"body":"stress and it just the, I don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":351.21400000000006,"endTime":355.55499999999995,"body":"know, the drive in either place."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":355.745,"endTime":358.20500000000004,"body":"I do think it ebbs and flows"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":355.745,"endTime":358.20500000000004,"body":"a little bit more in-house"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":358.20500000000004,"endTime":359.41499999999996,"body":"than it would at an agency."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":359.41499999999996,"endTime":362.92499999999995,"body":"We maintain a steady stressful"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":359.41499999999996,"endTime":362.92499999999995,"body":"stage in agency land."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":363.18499999999995,"endTime":363.80499999999995,"body":"That's a good point."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":363.80499999999995,"endTime":366.235,"body":"I guess the reality is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":363.80499999999995,"endTime":366.235,"body":"it's not going to be easy"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":366.67499999999995,"endTime":367.764,"body":"no matter where you go."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":368.07399999999996,"endTime":369.855,"body":"I think there's a quick"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":368.07399999999996,"endTime":369.855,"body":"fix to relieving stress"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":369.855,"endTime":372.494,"body":"by just switching to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":369.855,"endTime":372.494,"body":"in-house or vice versa."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":372.919,"endTime":375.029,"body":"Let's yeah we'll"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":372.919,"endTime":375.029,"body":"push on to the next."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":375.029,"endTime":377.71900000000005,"body":"So this is another question"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":375.029,"endTime":377.71900000000005,"body":"that actually came in from"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":377.95899999999995,"endTime":380.369,"body":"one of our members who"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":377.95899999999995,"endTime":380.369,"body":"submitted it ahead of time."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":380.72900000000004,"endTime":384.48900000000003,"body":"So they were wondering this"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":380.72900000000004,"endTime":384.48900000000003,"body":"member, what comes after"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":384.80999999999995,"endTime":385.94899999999996,"body":"digital project management?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":385.98,"endTime":389.30999999999995,"body":"If we've topped out as a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":385.98,"endTime":389.30999999999995,"body":"senior at our company or"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":389.30999999999995,"endTime":391.70899999999995,"body":"our agency, whatever it"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":389.30999999999995,"endTime":391.70899999999995,"body":"is, what else is out there?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":391.86,"endTime":394.31899999999996,"body":"And then maybe we can"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":391.86,"endTime":394.31899999999996,"body":"speak to how skills"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":394.31899999999996,"endTime":397.23,"body":"from PM are transferable"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":394.31899999999996,"endTime":397.23,"body":"to some other paths."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":397.62,"endTime":402.16999999999996,"body":"I love this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":397.62,"endTime":402.16999999999996,"body":"question because there is a, you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":402.16999999999996,"endTime":405.17999999999995,"body":"mentioned this at the beginning,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":402.16999999999996,"endTime":405.17999999999995,"body":"Michael, about It's okay to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":405.19000000000005,"endTime":408.20000000000005,"body":"be a really strong senior for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":405.19000000000005,"endTime":408.20000000000005,"body":"your entire career, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":408.21000000000004,"endTime":411.01,"body":"It's okay to be a project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":408.21000000000004,"endTime":411.01,"body":"manager for the entirety"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":411.01,"endTime":413.59000000000003,"body":"of your professional life,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":411.01,"endTime":413.59000000000003,"body":"if that's what you want."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":413.61,"endTime":416.40999999999997,"body":"And there is this pressure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":413.61,"endTime":416.40999999999997,"body":"to keep climbing a ladder"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":416.40999999999997,"endTime":418.96000000000004,"body":"and keep growing and keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":416.40999999999997,"endTime":418.96000000000004,"body":"getting a new title, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":419.31500000000005,"endTime":420.80499999999995,"body":"But that doesn't have"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":419.31500000000005,"endTime":420.80499999999995,"body":"to be the only path."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":421.025,"endTime":424.245,"body":"And so we actually, at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":421.025,"endTime":424.245,"body":"Hero, I love this question"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":424.245,"endTime":428.58500000000004,"body":"because one of the options"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":424.245,"endTime":428.58500000000004,"body":"here is to just stay there,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":428.58500000000004,"endTime":429.525,"body":"if that's what you like."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":429.655,"endTime":431.95500000000004,"body":"If you're happy with what"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":429.655,"endTime":431.95500000000004,"body":"you're doing and you really"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":431.95500000000004,"endTime":434.69500000000005,"body":"want to stay in the weeds,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":431.95500000000004,"endTime":434.69500000000005,"body":"running projects, you want"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":434.69500000000005,"endTime":436.115,"body":"full control over everything."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":436.5,"endTime":436.91999999999996,"body":"Do it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":437.41999999999996,"endTime":437.94000000000005,"body":"Stay there."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":438.24,"endTime":441.69000000000005,"body":"I have a couple senior"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":438.24,"endTime":441.69000000000005,"body":"PMs on my team who that's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":441.69000000000005,"endTime":442.53999999999996,"body":"exactly what they want."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":442.54999999999995,"endTime":446.39,"body":"They have no desire to move into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":442.54999999999995,"endTime":446.39,"body":"managing it like HR management,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":446.40999999999997,"endTime":448.88,"body":"not project management,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":446.40999999999997,"endTime":448.88,"body":"managing a team of people."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":449.13,"endTime":450.509,"body":"They don't want to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":449.13,"endTime":450.509,"body":"move into leadership."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":450.53,"endTime":453.08000000000004,"body":"They don't want the stress"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":450.53,"endTime":453.08000000000004,"body":"that comes with not only"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":453.08000000000004,"endTime":455.07899999999995,"body":"running projects, but also"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":453.08000000000004,"endTime":455.07899999999995,"body":"helping run the company."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":455.48,"endTime":457.58000000000004,"body":"And they want to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":455.48,"endTime":457.58000000000004,"body":"stay seniors forever."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":457.77,"endTime":460.45000000000005,"body":"And so there are ways to keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":457.77,"endTime":460.45000000000005,"body":"challenging yourself and keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":460.45000000000005,"endTime":462.5,"body":"growing in that role too, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":462.52,"endTime":464.19000000000005,"body":"So you can become a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":462.52,"endTime":464.19000000000005,"body":"SME in certain areas."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":464.19000000000005,"endTime":466.28,"body":"I have one person who"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":464.19000000000005,"endTime":466.28,"body":"wants to stay a senior PM"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":466.28,"endTime":468.54999999999995,"body":"forever and we're turning"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":466.28,"endTime":468.54999999999995,"body":"them into kind of like our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":468.54999999999995,"endTime":470.09000000000003,"body":"healthcare delivery SME."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":470.65,"endTime":472.07899999999995,"body":"So there are ways to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":470.65,"endTime":472.07899999999995,"body":"grow even if you want"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":472.07899999999995,"endTime":473.19000000000005,"body":"to stay in the weeds."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":473.66999999999996,"endTime":475.54999999999995,"body":"From there, there are a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":473.66999999999996,"endTime":475.54999999999995,"body":"couple different paths."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":475.94000000000005,"endTime":478.47,"body":"There's obviously like the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":475.94000000000005,"endTime":478.47,"body":"program management path."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":478.78,"endTime":482.1,"body":"Moving into managing larger"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":478.78,"endTime":482.1,"body":"engagements, multi-work"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":482.12,"endTime":485.40999999999997,"body":"stream programs, or a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":482.12,"endTime":485.40999999999997,"body":"portfolio of clients."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":485.75,"endTime":486.55999999999995,"body":"So there's that path."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":486.57000000000005,"endTime":489.54999999999995,"body":"There's also the operations"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":486.57000000000005,"endTime":489.54999999999995,"body":"path, moving more into delivery"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":489.54999999999995,"endTime":492.02,"body":"operations, reporting, tools."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":492.44000000000005,"endTime":495.12,"body":"At Hero, our delivery operations"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":492.44000000000005,"endTime":495.12,"body":"team is also responsible"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":495.12,"endTime":498.21500000000003,"body":"for overall delivery help"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":495.12,"endTime":498.21500000000003,"body":"of the entire organization."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":498.21500000000003,"endTime":499.69000000000005,"body":"They run our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":498.21500000000003,"endTime":499.69000000000005,"body":"retrospective committee."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":499.96000000000004,"endTime":502.72,"body":"They are constantly running"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":499.96000000000004,"endTime":502.72,"body":"reports and finding themes"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":502.72,"endTime":507.01,"body":"and common pitfalls in big"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":502.72,"endTime":507.01,"body":"day delivery across all"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":507.01,"endTime":508.39,"body":"of our practices, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":508.39,"endTime":511.47,"body":"Dev, creative, data,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":508.39,"endTime":511.47,"body":"everybody, like where are we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":511.47,"endTime":512.42,"body":"falling down consistently?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":512.42,"endTime":515.57,"body":"How can we up level our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":512.42,"endTime":515.57,"body":"processes in delivery to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":515.57,"endTime":516.67,"body":"catch those things in advance?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":516.71,"endTime":519.11,"body":"So our operations team"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":516.71,"endTime":519.11,"body":"actually does that."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":519.11,"endTime":520.67,"body":"That doesn't even sit"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":519.11,"endTime":520.67,"body":"within project management."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":520.68,"endTime":521.98,"body":"So that's an option as well."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":522.34,"endTime":525.66,"body":"And you can see how our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":522.34,"endTime":525.66,"body":"skills as project managers"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":525.88,"endTime":528.49,"body":"directly correlate into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":525.88,"endTime":528.49,"body":"the operation side, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":528.54,"endTime":532.19,"body":"Process improvements, risk"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":528.54,"endTime":532.19,"body":"identification mitigation, like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":532.2,"endTime":534.42,"body":"all of these things are things"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":532.2,"endTime":534.42,"body":"that are just ingrained in us."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":534.8,"endTime":536.05,"body":"And so that's another path."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":536.27,"endTime":539.1899999999999,"body":"I think our skills are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":536.27,"endTime":539.1899999999999,"body":"transferable to a lot of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":539.6,"endTime":542.27,"body":"places, the last of which"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":539.6,"endTime":542.27,"body":"that I want to highlight"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":542.29,"endTime":543.43,"body":"is quite there with us."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":544.0699999999999,"endTime":547.36,"body":"There are especially in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":544.0699999999999,"endTime":547.36,"body":"the more senior realm"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":547.68,"endTime":551.14,"body":"when we get to like client"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":547.68,"endTime":551.14,"body":"partner level at an agency."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":551.43,"endTime":553.52,"body":"Some of the best client partners"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":551.43,"endTime":553.52,"body":"I've ever worked with came"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":553.52,"endTime":555.88,"body":"from delivery because they"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":553.52,"endTime":555.88,"body":"understand the challenges that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":555.88,"endTime":559.5799999999999,"body":"we're facing and they understand"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":555.88,"endTime":559.5799999999999,"body":"how to work with clients to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":559.8,"endTime":564.1,"body":"like best set up long term"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":559.8,"endTime":564.1,"body":"enterprise level engagements"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":564.3199999999999,"endTime":567.42,"body":"in a way that is going to help"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":564.3199999999999,"endTime":567.42,"body":"the delivery team actually"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":567.42,"endTime":568.48,"body":"deliver them successfully."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":568.52,"endTime":570.3299999999999,"body":"So, I think there are a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":568.52,"endTime":570.3299999999999,"body":"number of places you can"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":570.3299999999999,"endTime":572.925,"body":"go after you've capped"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":570.3299999999999,"endTime":572.925,"body":"out as a senior PM."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":573.125,"endTime":574.935,"body":"We actually"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":573.125,"endTime":574.935,"body":"had an article on this recently"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":575.3149999999999,"endTime":578.0849999999999,"body":"at the DPM or our editor put"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":575.3149999999999,"endTime":578.0849999999999,"body":"it together and talked about"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":578.115,"endTime":581.0849999999999,"body":"some of the other jobs you"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":578.115,"endTime":581.0849999999999,"body":"can apply to or look into"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":581.3149999999999,"endTime":583.4549999999999,"body":"if you're looking to get"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":581.3149999999999,"endTime":583.4549999999999,"body":"out of DPM using the skills"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":583.4549999999999,"endTime":584.765,"body":"that you acquired here."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":584.765,"endTime":588.725,"body":"So maybe I will link that in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":584.765,"endTime":588.725,"body":"the chat after this, just to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":588.725,"endTime":591.525,"body":"give people an idea of some of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":588.725,"endTime":591.525,"body":"those jobs that are out there."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":591.8349999999999,"endTime":594.025,"body":"But one question I had, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":591.8349999999999,"endTime":594.025,"body":"actually had that came up during"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":594.025,"endTime":596.805,"body":"that was for the people who"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":594.025,"endTime":596.805,"body":"stay in that role and who are"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":597.275,"endTime":599.915,"body":"just, remaining project managers"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":597.275,"endTime":599.915,"body":"or senior project managers."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":600.25,"endTime":601.92,"body":"One question you might"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":600.25,"endTime":601.92,"body":"have is, how do you have"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":601.92,"endTime":603.26,"body":"that salary conversation?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":603.26,"endTime":606.3399999999999,"body":"Because at the same time as yes,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":603.26,"endTime":606.3399999999999,"body":"I want to do this job forever."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":606.54,"endTime":609.4599999999999,"body":"It's a little bit more difficult"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":606.54,"endTime":609.4599999999999,"body":"to have that conversation about"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":609.4599999999999,"endTime":612.98,"body":"compensation when you're not"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":609.4599999999999,"endTime":612.98,"body":"gaining more responsibility"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":612.98,"endTime":614.0899999999999,"body":"or, climbing the ladder."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":614.4399999999999,"endTime":614.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":615.05,"endTime":617.78,"body":"I think having an open"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":615.05,"endTime":617.78,"body":"conversation about pay bands"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":617.87,"endTime":621.0899999999999,"body":"with your manager, with HR"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":617.87,"endTime":621.0899999999999,"body":"is the first step, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":621.1,"endTime":623.9,"body":"Understanding where you are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":621.1,"endTime":623.9,"body":"in the pay band of your role."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":624.15,"endTime":626.35,"body":"There is a pay band or there"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":624.15,"endTime":626.35,"body":"should be a pay band for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":626.35,"endTime":628.26,"body":"every role in an organization."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":628.6,"endTime":631.17,"body":"You may not even realize that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":628.6,"endTime":631.17,"body":"you're in the bottom 10% of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":631.17,"endTime":633.9,"body":"it and you have a lot of space"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":631.17,"endTime":633.9,"body":"there to grow, even in the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":633.9,"endTime":635.56,"body":"same role and a lot of room."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":635.5899999999999,"endTime":637.92,"body":"Now, if you're at the top of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":635.5899999999999,"endTime":637.92,"body":"the pay band, then you can"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":637.92,"endTime":641.55,"body":"start having conversations about"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":637.92,"endTime":641.55,"body":"like variable compensation."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":641.55,"endTime":643.61,"body":"And if you're making the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":641.55,"endTime":643.61,"body":"commitment to stay at this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":643.61,"endTime":647.3299999999999,"body":"company and provide value in a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":643.61,"endTime":647.3299999999999,"body":"really exceptional way, but stay"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":647.3299999999999,"endTime":649.8199999999999,"body":"in this role, because you don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":647.3299999999999,"endTime":649.8199999999999,"body":"want to move up into another"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":649.8199999999999,"endTime":652.5,"body":"title, you can talk about"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":649.8199999999999,"endTime":652.5,"body":"different bonus structures."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":652.53,"endTime":655.3299999999999,"body":"You can talk about have"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":652.53,"endTime":655.3299999999999,"body":"variable comp measured around"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":655.3399999999999,"endTime":656.85,"body":"your KPIs and delivery."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":657.0699999999999,"endTime":659.9399999999999,"body":"In a lot of cases, organizations"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":657.0699999999999,"endTime":659.9399999999999,"body":"will be, and because we do,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":659.9399999999999,"endTime":661.53,"body":"I can speak really candidly."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":661.53,"endTime":664.87,"body":"I love when my team members"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":661.53,"endTime":664.87,"body":"want to stay at that senior"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":664.87,"endTime":667.73,"body":"level because that's the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":664.87,"endTime":667.73,"body":"hardest role frankly to keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":667.74,"endTime":668.88,"body":"people in for a long time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":669.0899999999999,"endTime":671.0,"body":"When you hit a senior level,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":669.0899999999999,"endTime":671.0,"body":"you're close to moving to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":671.0,"endTime":674.15,"body":"a program role and people"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":671.0,"endTime":674.15,"body":"want to move quickly."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":674.24,"endTime":676.05,"body":"And so I love when people"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":674.24,"endTime":676.05,"body":"want to stay there because"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":676.05,"endTime":678.1899999999999,"body":"that is one of the most"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":676.05,"endTime":678.1899999999999,"body":"valuable roles on the team."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":678.41,"endTime":681.92,"body":"You can deliver really hard,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":678.41,"endTime":681.92,"body":"complex work and I can trust"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":681.92,"endTime":683.04,"body":"that you can do it flawlessly."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":683.35,"endTime":685.05,"body":"So I love when people stay"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":683.35,"endTime":685.05,"body":"there and so I will go out"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":685.05,"endTime":688.5,"body":"of my way to come up with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":685.05,"endTime":688.5,"body":"compensation packages to give"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":688.5,"endTime":691.37,"body":"you extra bonuses, like ways"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":688.5,"endTime":691.37,"body":"that might not be tied to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":691.37,"endTime":694.4399999999999,"body":"actual salary because of pay"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":691.37,"endTime":694.4399999999999,"body":"band limitations, but ways"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":694.4399999999999,"endTime":697.4599999999999,"body":"to keep you incentivized and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":694.4399999999999,"endTime":697.4599999999999,"body":"make sure that you're still"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":697.5699999999999,"endTime":699.66,"body":"appropriately compensated for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":697.5699999999999,"endTime":699.66,"body":"the value that you're bringing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":699.9499999999999,"endTime":700.79,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":699.9499999999999,"endTime":700.79,"body":"that's a great point."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":700.79,"endTime":702.02,"body":"Yeah, and I appreciate"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":700.79,"endTime":702.02,"body":"you diving into that."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":702.11,"endTime":703.5699999999999,"body":"So yeah, we're going to talk"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":702.11,"endTime":703.5699999999999,"body":"about what are some ways"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":703.875,"endTime":706.675,"body":"I can show my expertise in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":703.875,"endTime":706.675,"body":"project management when we"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":706.675,"endTime":710.915,"body":"don't have actual work to show"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":706.675,"endTime":710.915,"body":"like creatives or devs do?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":710.915,"endTime":713.0649999999999,"body":"And this is another question"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":710.915,"endTime":713.0649999999999,"body":"that came in ahead of time from"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":713.0649999999999,"endTime":714.415,"body":"one of the members as well."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":714.805,"endTime":715.4449999999999,"body":"I love this."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":715.5649999999999,"endTime":715.885,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":715.885,"endTime":717.355,"body":"So we don't have portfolios."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":717.735,"endTime":720.1949999999999,"body":"We can't show like we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":717.735,"endTime":720.1949999999999,"body":"built this website, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":720.2049999999999,"endTime":722.545,"body":"There is no code review"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":720.2049999999999,"endTime":722.545,"body":"for project managers."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":722.8249999999999,"endTime":725.685,"body":"We show our expertise"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":722.8249999999999,"endTime":725.685,"body":"in our quality of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":725.685,"endTime":726.515,"body":"delivery through data."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":726.865,"endTime":729.485,"body":"So if we can, if you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":726.865,"endTime":729.485,"body":"interviewing somewhere, you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":729.485,"endTime":734.93,"body":"want to prove your value, I keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":729.485,"endTime":734.93,"body":"a, like a log that I did when"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":734.93,"endTime":736.0799999999999,"body":"I was a project manager too."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":736.0799999999999,"endTime":738.0699999999999,"body":"I kept my delivery KPIs."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":738.35,"endTime":740.87,"body":"Every time I finished a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":738.35,"endTime":740.87,"body":"project, I said, here's my"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":740.88,"endTime":742.1999999999999,"body":"final budget performance."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":742.2099999999999,"endTime":743.77,"body":"Here was my final"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":742.2099999999999,"endTime":743.77,"body":"timeline performance."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":744.01,"endTime":745.8199999999999,"body":"Here was how we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":744.01,"endTime":745.8199999999999,"body":"managed scope creep."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":745.8199999999999,"endTime":748.13,"body":"Here are how many risks"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":745.8199999999999,"endTime":748.13,"body":"identified and mitigated before"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":748.13,"endTime":749.5,"body":"they became actual problems."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":749.54,"endTime":752.1,"body":"Like I had my own personal"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":749.54,"endTime":752.1,"body":"KPIs that I kept track of."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":752.4399999999999,"endTime":755.3199999999999,"body":"So that if I was interviewing,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":752.4399999999999,"endTime":755.3199999999999,"body":"or if I was asking for a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":755.3199999999999,"endTime":757.9499999999999,"body":"raise, or if I was up for a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":755.3199999999999,"endTime":757.9499999999999,"body":"promotion, I could be like,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":757.9599999999999,"endTime":759.8349999999999,"body":"here is my track record."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":760.285,"endTime":763.555,"body":"And you can put those in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":760.285,"endTime":763.555,"body":"your resume too in ways like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":763.555,"endTime":767.9549999999999,"body":"saying 98% of my projects"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":763.555,"endTime":767.9549999999999,"body":"finished on time and on budget."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":768.515,"endTime":771.0749999999999,"body":"And so we do it through metrics."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":771.295,"endTime":774.405,"body":"We like to think of ourselves"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":771.295,"endTime":774.405,"body":"as, I like to say that my brain"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":774.405,"endTime":775.645,"body":"works in a spreadsheet, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":775.725,"endTime":777.785,"body":"Every time I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":775.725,"endTime":777.785,"body":"it is in spreadsheet mode,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":778.2049999999999,"endTime":780.915,"body":"but we are more exceptional"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":778.2049999999999,"endTime":780.915,"body":"storytellers and we give"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":780.915,"endTime":781.8349999999999,"body":"ourselves credit for."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":782.2049999999999,"endTime":784.265,"body":"If you're trying to prove"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":782.2049999999999,"endTime":784.265,"body":"your value or show your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":784.265,"endTime":786.5699999999999,"body":"expertise, storytelling."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":786.93,"endTime":789.8,"body":"Think of really good"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":786.93,"endTime":789.8,"body":"examples of I was thrown"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":789.8,"endTime":793.89,"body":"this curveball and this is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":789.8,"endTime":793.89,"body":"what I did with it, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":794.16,"endTime":797.8299999999999,"body":"A client called me one day and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":794.16,"endTime":797.8299999999999,"body":"told me that I, we needed to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":797.8299999999999,"endTime":799.76,"body":"change the scope drastically,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":797.8299999999999,"endTime":799.76,"body":"but I couldn't change the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":799.8,"endTime":800.64,"body":"timeline or the budget."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":801.11,"endTime":801.55,"body":"What did I do?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":802.03,"endTime":805.12,"body":"And keep that record of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":802.03,"endTime":805.12,"body":"things where you're like,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":805.13,"endTime":807.98,"body":"God, I'm really proud"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":805.13,"endTime":807.98,"body":"of what I just did here."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":808.26,"endTime":809.86,"body":"If you close your laptop at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":808.26,"endTime":809.86,"body":"the end of the day and you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":809.86,"endTime":811.3199999999999,"body":"like, man, I had a good day."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":811.75,"endTime":814.3199999999999,"body":"I just did this and this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":811.75,"endTime":814.3199999999999,"body":"and this, write it down."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":814.8399999999999,"endTime":818.0,"body":"And then also think of the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":814.8399999999999,"endTime":818.0,"body":"things that your personal"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":818.12,"endTime":819.61,"body":"PM branding, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":819.68,"endTime":822.8299999999999,"body":"I think all of us have"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":819.68,"endTime":822.8299999999999,"body":"specific, like little tactics"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":822.8299999999999,"endTime":825.49,"body":"or things that we do that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":822.8299999999999,"endTime":825.49,"body":"are just individual to us."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":825.5,"endTime":826.8299999999999,"body":"Things that we've"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":825.5,"endTime":826.8299999999999,"body":"learned along the way."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":827.06,"endTime":830.13,"body":"Little tactics to help us"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":827.06,"endTime":830.13,"body":"out in tricky situations."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":830.55,"endTime":831.4,"body":"Make note of those."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":831.67,"endTime":831.9499999999999,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":831.9599999999999,"endTime":833.15,"body":"Identify what those are."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":833.15,"endTime":836.76,"body":"For me, I have two major ones"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":833.15,"endTime":836.76,"body":"that I go to every time I talk"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":836.77,"endTime":839.18,"body":"about, like, why do you say"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":836.77,"endTime":839.18,"body":"you're an expert in delivery?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":839.18,"endTime":841.41,"body":"I can be like, well, these are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":839.18,"endTime":841.41,"body":"things that happen all the time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":841.4399999999999,"endTime":842.27,"body":"This is how I deal with them."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":842.56,"endTime":843.8199999999999,"body":"And they are rinse and repeat."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":843.92,"endTime":844.29,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":844.72,"endTime":847.92,"body":"One of mine is, I actually"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":844.72,"endTime":847.92,"body":"put this in the Slack the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":847.92,"endTime":849.37,"body":"other day when we were"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":847.92,"endTime":849.37,"body":"talking about scope creep."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":849.73,"endTime":852.49,"body":"I talk about the triple"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":849.73,"endTime":852.49,"body":"constraint or the iron triangle"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":852.5,"endTime":854.3299999999999,"body":"in every kickoff with a client."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":854.5899999999999,"endTime":856.36,"body":"And I tell them, I can't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":854.5899999999999,"endTime":856.36,"body":"give you all three."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":856.42,"endTime":857.0899999999999,"body":"Wish I could."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":857.13,"endTime":857.67,"body":"Love you."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":858.14,"endTime":858.92,"body":"Can't do it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":859.4499999999999,"endTime":860.79,"body":"I need you to prioritize."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":861.01,"endTime":862.4,"body":"I need one, two, and three."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":862.4,"endTime":863.64,"body":"Tell me which is the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":862.4,"endTime":863.64,"body":"most important, which"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":863.64,"endTime":864.35,"body":"is the least important."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":864.36,"endTime":866.04,"body":"Whatever you put in third"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":864.36,"endTime":866.04,"body":"place, I get to all."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":866.4599999999999,"endTime":867.6999999999999,"body":"And we're not going to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":866.4599999999999,"endTime":867.6999999999999,"body":"fight about it anymore."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":868.0899999999999,"endTime":869.9399999999999,"body":"And that's one of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":868.0899999999999,"endTime":869.9399999999999,"body":"my little tactics."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":870.01,"endTime":872.2099999999999,"body":"And I promise if somebody,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":870.01,"endTime":872.2099999999999,"body":"if I were interviewing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":872.22,"endTime":873.77,"body":"a project manager, and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":872.22,"endTime":873.77,"body":"they were to say that to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":873.79,"endTime":875.86,"body":"me this is how I mitigate"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":873.79,"endTime":875.86,"body":"the risk of scope creep."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":876.0,"endTime":877.26,"body":"I make them prioritize."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":877.9,"endTime":878.4399999999999,"body":"I'd hire that person."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":878.5899999999999,"endTime":881.55,"body":"I'd be like, that is a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":878.5899999999999,"endTime":881.55,"body":"soft skill or a personal"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":881.55,"endTime":883.35,"body":"tactic to be on my team."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":883.89,"endTime":884.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":884.13,"endTime":887.145,"body":"I love those ways of getting"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":884.13,"endTime":887.145,"body":"like writing that journal in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":887.145,"endTime":891.175,"body":"a way of kind of your wins in,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":887.145,"endTime":891.175,"body":"in, in the ways that you excel."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":891.505,"endTime":893.0849999999999,"body":"And I think that it's an"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":891.505,"endTime":893.0849999999999,"body":"important thing to do it in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":893.0849999999999,"endTime":895.555,"body":"the moment too, because maybe"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":893.0849999999999,"endTime":895.555,"body":"you're the kind of person"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":895.555,"endTime":898.035,"body":"who can like retroactively"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":895.555,"endTime":898.035,"body":"look back and remember every"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":898.035,"endTime":898.895,"body":"little detail about it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":898.925,"endTime":901.095,"body":"But I find that having a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":898.925,"endTime":901.095,"body":"little like notebook next to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":901.095,"endTime":904.605,"body":"me or Word again, or like a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":901.095,"endTime":904.605,"body":"spreadsheet open or whatever it"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":904.605,"endTime":907.435,"body":"is, just allowing you to take"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":904.605,"endTime":907.435,"body":"some notes in the, in while"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":907.435,"endTime":909.005,"body":"it's happening, just to make"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":907.435,"endTime":909.005,"body":"sure that you get everything"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":909.305,"endTime":910.305,"body":"or written down accurately."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":910.525,"endTime":911.045,"body":"For sure."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":911.0749999999999,"endTime":914.67,"body":"I actually was leading a women"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":911.0749999999999,"endTime":914.67,"body":"in leadership event yesterday,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":914.77,"endTime":918.9,"body":"and somebody used the term 'brag"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":914.77,"endTime":918.9,"body":"a log' for that log that you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":918.9,"endTime":921.5799999999999,"body":"keep of like your successes were"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":918.9,"endTime":921.5799999999999,"body":"like, yeah, I write them in a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":921.5799999999999,"endTime":923.41,"body":"brag a log and I am stealing it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":923.42,"endTime":924.78,"body":"That is a great word."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":924.9,"endTime":925.9399999999999,"body":"That's fantastic."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":925.97,"endTime":926.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":926.02,"endTime":927.05,"body":"A brag a log."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":927.05,"endTime":927.65,"body":"That's amazing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":927.65,"endTime":928.85,"body":"A brag a log."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":929.11,"endTime":929.5699999999999,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":929.5699999999999,"endTime":929.87,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":929.87,"endTime":931.67,"body":"Let's move on to the next here."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":931.67,"endTime":934.65,"body":"So this one's a little bit"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":931.67,"endTime":934.65,"body":"more vague, but I don't"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":934.65,"endTime":936.0799999999999,"body":"know how we want to approach"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":934.65,"endTime":936.0799999999999,"body":"this one, but we're going"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":936.0799999999999,"endTime":937.42,"body":"to just jump into it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":937.62,"endTime":939.0,"body":"How do we move up"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":937.62,"endTime":939.0,"body":"to the next level?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":939.02,"endTime":941.5799999999999,"body":"So this is somebody who's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":939.02,"endTime":941.5799999999999,"body":"probably already in their, in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":941.5799999999999,"endTime":944.38,"body":"a PM role and they're looking"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":941.5799999999999,"endTime":944.38,"body":"to get up to the next one or"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":944.38,"endTime":945.6999999999999,"body":"maybe senior PM and onward."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":946.17,"endTime":948.0,"body":"Know"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":946.17,"endTime":948.0,"body":"what is needed to move"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":948.0,"endTime":948.6999999999999,"body":"to the next level."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":948.72,"endTime":950.76,"body":"That truly like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":948.72,"endTime":950.76,"body":"that is the secret."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":951.01,"endTime":953.1899999999999,"body":"A lot of organizations"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":951.01,"endTime":953.1899999999999,"body":"make it very vague, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":953.42,"endTime":954.885,"body":"We'll promote you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":953.42,"endTime":954.885,"body":"when you're ready."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":955.155,"endTime":957.435,"body":"If that is the answer"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":955.155,"endTime":957.435,"body":"you're getting, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":957.435,"endTime":958.475,"body":"what more I can tell you."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":958.475,"endTime":959.865,"body":"You're just not there yet."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":960.055,"endTime":960.795,"body":"That's not good enough."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":961.2149999999999,"endTime":965.095,"body":"And so you have an opportunity"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":961.2149999999999,"endTime":965.095,"body":"in those situations where like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":965.105,"endTime":967.165,"body":"you're not quite sure how to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":965.105,"endTime":967.165,"body":"move to the next level or you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":967.165,"endTime":969.515,"body":"don't know what's expected"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":967.165,"endTime":969.515,"body":"of you to move from a PM to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":969.515,"endTime":972.375,"body":"a senior PM or to move from a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":969.515,"endTime":972.375,"body":"senior PM to a program manager."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":972.475,"endTime":975.4549999999999,"body":"If that hasn't been defined"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":972.475,"endTime":975.4549999999999,"body":"at your organization, that's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":975.4549999999999,"endTime":976.915,"body":"an opportunity for you."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":977.235,"endTime":979.395,"body":"That's an opportunity for you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":977.235,"endTime":979.395,"body":"to step in and say, hey, why"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":979.395,"endTime":980.4549999999999,"body":"don't I help you craft this?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":980.985,"endTime":982.935,"body":"Why don't I work with you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":980.985,"endTime":982.935,"body":"and we'll write it down"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":982.935,"endTime":984.915,"body":"because I can't be the only"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":982.935,"endTime":984.915,"body":"person feeling like this."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":985.485,"endTime":991.73,"body":"I'm a huge believer in moving"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":985.485,"endTime":991.73,"body":"up the ladder or growing your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":991.73,"endTime":995.4,"body":"career is a lot about right"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":991.73,"endTime":995.4,"body":"place, right time, being in the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":995.4,"endTime":996.6999999999999,"body":"right place at the right time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":996.6999999999999,"endTime":999.16,"body":"But then the third piece of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":996.6999999999999,"endTime":999.16,"body":"it is taking action on it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":999.615,"endTime":1000.025,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1000.2049999999999,"endTime":1002.785,"body":"One of my like close"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1000.2049999999999,"endTime":1002.785,"body":"friends in my professional"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1002.785,"endTime":1005.295,"body":"network she calls it,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1002.785,"endTime":1005.295,"body":"'see a need, fill a need'."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1005.685,"endTime":1006.925,"body":"If you see a need, fill it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1007.395,"endTime":1009.015,"body":"And that's how she"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1007.395,"endTime":1009.015,"body":"built her entire career."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1009.015,"endTime":1011.795,"body":"And now she is running, she's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1009.015,"endTime":1011.795,"body":"the global head of strategy"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1011.795,"endTime":1013.275,"body":"for a large trust company."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1013.625,"endTime":1017.615,"body":"And she filled her, she"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1013.625,"endTime":1017.615,"body":"managed her entire career or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1017.615,"endTime":1019.865,"body":"grew her entire career just"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1017.615,"endTime":1019.865,"body":"by seeing a need and feeling"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1019.865,"endTime":1022.985,"body":"a need, just making herself"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1019.865,"endTime":1022.985,"body":"invaluable at every point."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1023.1949999999999,"endTime":1025.9750000000001,"body":"So if you aren't sure how to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1023.1949999999999,"endTime":1025.9750000000001,"body":"move to the next level, and if"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1026.205,"endTime":1029.525,"body":"your company isn't giving you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1026.205,"endTime":1029.525,"body":"that clarity on what's expected"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1029.525,"endTime":1032.575,"body":"of you, that is you seeing a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1029.525,"endTime":1032.575,"body":"need and you can help pill it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1032.795,"endTime":1035.575,"body":"If one of my PMs were to come"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1032.795,"endTime":1035.575,"body":"to me and say, I'm not really"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1035.575,"endTime":1038.695,"body":"sure what's expected of me to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1035.575,"endTime":1038.695,"body":"move to a senior PM role, and I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1038.695,"endTime":1039.945,"body":"didn't have that written down."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1040.25,"endTime":1043.13,"body":"If they were to say, my"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1040.25,"endTime":1043.13,"body":"instinct would be to say, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1043.13,"endTime":1044.19,"body":"shoot let me work on that."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1044.3600000000001,"endTime":1045.7,"body":"I'll work on that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1044.3600000000001,"endTime":1045.7,"body":"and I'll roll it out."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1045.9,"endTime":1047.3999999999999,"body":"But if they were to say,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1045.9,"endTime":1047.3999999999999,"body":"why don't I help you?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1048.01,"endTime":1049.05,"body":"Let's sit down together."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1049.23,"endTime":1051.58,"body":"I'll do the work of writing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1049.23,"endTime":1051.58,"body":"it all down, organizing it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1051.61,"endTime":1054.06,"body":"I can even have some of the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1051.61,"endTime":1054.06,"body":"conversations with HR to make"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1054.06,"endTime":1056.31,"body":"sure that it's comparable"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1054.06,"endTime":1056.31,"body":"across other disciplines."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1056.31,"endTime":1057.1499999999999,"body":"I'll take that."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1057.43,"endTime":1058.69,"body":"I'd be so grateful."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1059.1499999999999,"endTime":1061.08,"body":"And then I would know that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1059.1499999999999,"endTime":1061.08,"body":"that person has the initiative."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1061.08,"endTime":1062.7,"body":"They're taking the reins."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1062.7,"endTime":1065.32,"body":"They have the drive to keep"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1062.7,"endTime":1065.32,"body":"moving forward, not just for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1065.32,"endTime":1067.03,"body":"themselves, but something"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1065.32,"endTime":1067.03,"body":"that's going to help the whole"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1067.03,"endTime":1068.23,"body":"organization moving forward."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1068.575,"endTime":1069.835,"body":"I didn't"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1068.575,"endTime":1069.835,"body":"think that last point there"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1069.835,"endTime":1073.445,"body":"is a big one where it's like"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1069.835,"endTime":1073.445,"body":"you're moving from that idea"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1073.445,"endTime":1075.605,"body":"of focusing on kind of what's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1073.445,"endTime":1075.605,"body":"on your plate and what's in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1075.605,"endTime":1079.465,"body":"front of you to how can this"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1075.605,"endTime":1079.465,"body":"affect the organization at"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1079.465,"endTime":1083.5049999999999,"body":"a bigger scale to be better"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1079.465,"endTime":1083.5049999999999,"body":"across maybe not just do even"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1083.5049999999999,"endTime":1085.375,"body":"your department, but across"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1083.5049999999999,"endTime":1085.375,"body":"the departments as well."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1085.695,"endTime":1088.085,"body":"Because it shows that you're"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1085.695,"endTime":1088.085,"body":"taking that initiative and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1088.615,"endTime":1090.825,"body":"looking to make a bigger impact."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1091.065,"endTime":1093.185,"body":"And then yeah, so we had"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1091.065,"endTime":1093.185,"body":"another question come"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1093.185,"endTime":1095.455,"body":"in from the chat again."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1096.215,"endTime":1099.25,"body":"So this one came in from one of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1096.215,"endTime":1099.25,"body":"our members in the chat here."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1099.25,"endTime":1103.04,"body":"So I want to circle back"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1099.25,"endTime":1103.04,"body":"on DPM to client services."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1103.28,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"What are some ways to hone"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1103.28,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"your client strategy skills?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1106.86,"endTime":1110.37,"body":"And bonus, if we can"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1106.86,"endTime":1110.37,"body":"recommend a course or a book."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1110.54,"endTime":1112.08,"body":"Course or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1110.54,"endTime":1112.08,"body":"book, I have a ton of them."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1112.08,"endTime":1114.02,"body":"And so I can actually"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1112.08,"endTime":1114.02,"body":"put things in Slack."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1114.1299999999999,"endTime":1115.46,"body":"I'll put things in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1114.1299999999999,"endTime":1115.46,"body":"Slack afterwards."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1115.59,"endTime":1117.29,"body":"I'm going to pull a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1115.59,"endTime":1117.29,"body":"couple of resources down."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1117.705,"endTime":1121.495,"body":"But ways to hone your client"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1117.705,"endTime":1121.495,"body":"strategy skills, make friends"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1121.545,"endTime":1124.845,"body":"with people in client services,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1121.545,"endTime":1124.845,"body":"ask to come to all the meetings."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1124.845,"endTime":1127.725,"body":"If you're working in like an"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1124.845,"endTime":1127.725,"body":"agency where there's a really"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1127.725,"endTime":1130.0249999999999,"body":"clear separation between"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1127.725,"endTime":1130.0249999999999,"body":"client services and project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1130.0249999999999,"endTime":1133.2749999999999,"body":"management, and if you're more"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1130.0249999999999,"endTime":1133.2749999999999,"body":"of an internal function, like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1133.2749999999999,"endTime":1135.665,"body":"the client services team takes"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1133.2749999999999,"endTime":1135.665,"body":"everything to the client, you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1135.665,"endTime":1136.915,"body":"are running the team internally."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1137.105,"endTime":1138.405,"body":"Ask if you can cross that line."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1138.75,"endTime":1141.41,"body":"Ask if you can come shadow,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1138.75,"endTime":1141.41,"body":"if you can be a fly on the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1141.41,"endTime":1144.56,"body":"wall, make friends with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1141.41,"endTime":1144.56,"body":"people in client services."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1144.77,"endTime":1147.44,"body":"If you're in an agency like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1144.77,"endTime":1147.44,"body":"the one that I've been at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1147.44,"endTime":1150.1399999999999,"body":"where project management is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1147.44,"endTime":1150.1399999999999,"body":"really leading the client"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1150.1399999999999,"endTime":1153.46,"body":"conversations, we're driving"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1150.1399999999999,"endTime":1153.46,"body":"the delivery strategy."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1153.83,"endTime":1154.37,"body":"Speak up."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1154.56,"endTime":1156.95,"body":"If you see something where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1154.56,"endTime":1156.95,"body":"you're like, God, we should"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1156.96,"endTime":1159.1499999999999,"body":"not be building this thing the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1156.96,"endTime":1159.1499999999999,"body":"way that we're building it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1159.16,"endTime":1160.86,"body":"I don't understand the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1159.16,"endTime":1160.86,"body":"value this is going to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1160.86,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"bring to the business, like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1160.86,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"to our client business."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1163.67,"endTime":1166.76,"body":"Say something and say it"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1163.67,"endTime":1166.76,"body":"to your client, like your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1166.76,"endTime":1169.1299999999999,"body":"client service partner and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1166.76,"endTime":1169.1299999999999,"body":"then going together, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1169.1399999999999,"endTime":1171.84,"body":"Say, Hey, I really don't think"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1169.1399999999999,"endTime":1171.84,"body":"like these were the objectives"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1172.1399999999999,"endTime":1174.42,"body":"that the client mentioned at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1172.1399999999999,"endTime":1174.42,"body":"the beginning of this project."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1174.42,"endTime":1176.2,"body":"I don't think that this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1174.42,"endTime":1176.2,"body":"is going to meet them."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1176.2,"endTime":1178.49,"body":"Say something and approach"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1176.2,"endTime":1178.49,"body":"the client together about it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1178.835,"endTime":1181.375,"body":"If you're interested in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1178.835,"endTime":1181.375,"body":"crossing over into client"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1181.375,"endTime":1183.2549999999999,"body":"services, stop passing the ball."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1183.485,"endTime":1187.415,"body":"Carry the ball together,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1183.485,"endTime":1187.415,"body":"make your friends and be a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1187.415,"endTime":1188.7549999999999,"body":"team in front of the client."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1188.975,"endTime":1192.355,"body":"You'll pick up on some of those"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1188.975,"endTime":1192.355,"body":"like client strategy, you'll"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1192.355,"endTime":1197.035,"body":"pick up on like how they have"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1192.355,"endTime":1197.035,"body":"outcome-based conversations,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1197.035,"endTime":1200.415,"body":"not output-based conversations,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1197.035,"endTime":1200.415,"body":"value based delivery."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1200.605,"endTime":1202.425,"body":"You'll start to pick up on"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1200.605,"endTime":1202.425,"body":"it over time, but the biggest"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1202.425,"endTime":1204.415,"body":"thing is just to surround"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1202.425,"endTime":1204.415,"body":"yourself with people who"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1204.415,"endTime":1205.215,"body":"are already in the role."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1205.725,"endTime":1206.965,"body":"I feel like"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1205.725,"endTime":1206.965,"body":"one thing you mentioned there"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1206.965,"endTime":1209.725,"body":"was almost like that, came"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1206.965,"endTime":1209.725,"body":"back to that see something."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1210.34,"endTime":1211.47,"body":"Say something in a way."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1211.47,"endTime":1211.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1211.79,"endTime":1212.79,"body":"See a need, feel a need."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1213.02,"endTime":1213.6299999999999,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1213.02,"endTime":1213.6299999999999,"body":"that's what it was."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1213.6299999999999,"endTime":1214.1,"body":"Yeah, you said it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1214.24,"endTime":1215.8799999999999,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1216.21,"endTime":1219.1,"body":"Yeah, like if you see something"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1216.21,"endTime":1219.1,"body":"going on in your project and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1219.1,"endTime":1220.77,"body":"it's just not sitting well"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1219.1,"endTime":1220.77,"body":"with you, but it's not your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1220.77,"endTime":1221.85,"body":"job, that's not a thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1222.35,"endTime":1223.25,"body":"That's not my job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1223.25,"endTime":1225.1,"body":"It's not a phrase that we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1223.25,"endTime":1225.1,"body":"have in project management."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1225.21,"endTime":1226.3,"body":"Everything is our job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1226.48,"endTime":1229.04,"body":"I've told the CEO of our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1226.48,"endTime":1229.04,"body":"company this last week."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1229.29,"endTime":1231.3,"body":"I said listen cause we were"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1229.29,"endTime":1231.3,"body":"having a conversation about"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1231.3,"endTime":1233.8899999999999,"body":"some issues in delivery and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1231.3,"endTime":1233.8899999999999,"body":"gaps in what we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1233.8899999999999,"endTime":1236.51,"body":"do to fill them and common"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1233.8899999999999,"endTime":1236.51,"body":"pain points and whatever."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1236.84,"endTime":1239.06,"body":"And I kept speaking"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1236.84,"endTime":1239.06,"body":"up in the room."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1239.07,"endTime":1241.01,"body":"It was our whole"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1239.07,"endTime":1241.01,"body":"executive leadership team."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1241.01,"endTime":1242.74,"body":"And I kept saying, well,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1241.01,"endTime":1242.74,"body":"we, we could do that."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1243.05,"endTime":1244.05,"body":"We should do this, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1244.06,"endTime":1245.12,"body":"This would be a solve."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1245.43,"endTime":1247.56,"body":"And somebody finally said"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1245.43,"endTime":1247.56,"body":"to me it's not your job"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1247.56,"endTime":1248.6299999999999,"body":"to solve every problem."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1248.8899999999999,"endTime":1251.75,"body":"And I said, no, no, it's not"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1248.8899999999999,"endTime":1251.75,"body":"my job to solve every problem,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1251.75,"endTime":1253.91,"body":"but it is my job to make sure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1251.75,"endTime":1253.91,"body":"that every problem gets solved."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1254.395,"endTime":1257.245,"body":"And everybody just sat back"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1254.395,"endTime":1257.245,"body":"and they were like, crap,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1257.675,"endTime":1258.815,"body":"Pam is getting glossy again."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1259.2549999999999,"endTime":1262.035,"body":"But that's what we say on"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1259.2549999999999,"endTime":1262.035,"body":"my team, on every project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1262.035,"endTime":1263.235,"body":"management team I've ever led."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1263.405,"endTime":1265.095,"body":"It's not our job to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1263.405,"endTime":1265.095,"body":"solve the problems."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1265.095,"endTime":1266.475,"body":"It is our job to make"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1265.095,"endTime":1266.475,"body":"sure they get solved."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1267.36,"body":"It's so important."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1267.36,"endTime":1269.99,"body":"And I think that, I mean, a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1267.36,"endTime":1269.99,"body":"lot of people just fall into"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1269.99,"endTime":1273.42,"body":"that kind of like bystander"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1269.99,"endTime":1273.42,"body":"mindset where you think,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1273.42,"endTime":1274.92,"body":"you sit around the table"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1273.42,"endTime":1274.92,"body":"and think that somebody"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1274.92,"endTime":1276.77,"body":"else might say something and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1274.92,"endTime":1276.77,"body":"there's nothing wrong for"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1276.77,"endTime":1278.73,"body":"a person to just speak up."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1278.76,"endTime":1281.49,"body":"And that's something that I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1278.76,"endTime":1281.49,"body":"learned more and more as I get,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1281.73,"endTime":1285.49,"body":"through along my career, is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1281.73,"endTime":1285.49,"body":"that people who simply just say"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1285.49,"endTime":1289.29,"body":"things and speak up are often"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1285.49,"endTime":1289.29,"body":"the ones, who get prioritized."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1289.53,"endTime":1291.37,"body":"And again, it's not"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1289.53,"endTime":1291.37,"body":"as simple as that."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1291.37,"endTime":1293.95,"body":"And it's also that action point"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1291.37,"endTime":1293.95,"body":"that you mentioned earlier."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1293.95,"endTime":1296.6,"body":"It's like saying something, then"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1293.95,"endTime":1296.6,"body":"also doing something about it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1296.77,"endTime":1298.8,"body":"But yeah, it starts, it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1296.77,"endTime":1298.8,"body":"starting, it starts with"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1298.8,"endTime":1302.36,"body":"that, starts with vocalizing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1298.8,"endTime":1302.36,"body":"it to make sure that it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1302.8,"endTime":1305.86,"body":"a problem that's been made"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1302.8,"endTime":1305.86,"body":"aware, and then ideally"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1305.86,"endTime":1308.08,"body":"having a plan to, attack it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1308.3799999999999,"endTime":1308.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1308.98,"endTime":1312.57,"body":"I do think it's also, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1308.98,"endTime":1312.57,"body":"a lot of people who are in our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1312.57,"endTime":1315.66,"body":"role are type A extroverted."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1315.66,"endTime":1319.35,"body":"Like we see solutions"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1315.66,"endTime":1319.35,"body":"very easily and we tend"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1319.35,"endTime":1321.68,"body":"to just we see a stage"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1319.35,"endTime":1321.68,"body":"and we jump on it, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1321.68,"endTime":1324.0049999999999,"body":"We're like, gimme the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1321.68,"endTime":1324.0049999999999,"body":"spotlight, making sure that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1324.0049999999999,"endTime":1326.575,"body":"the right person is on the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1324.0049999999999,"endTime":1326.575,"body":"stage and in the spotlight."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1326.575,"endTime":1328.0149999999999,"body":"It's not always us, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1328.185,"endTime":1330.875,"body":"I would love to be under"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1328.185,"endTime":1330.875,"body":"a spotlight and on a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1330.885,"endTime":1331.795,"body":"stage at all times."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1332.0249999999999,"endTime":1332.855,"body":"Just love it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1333.435,"endTime":1336.565,"body":"But it's also our responsibility"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1333.435,"endTime":1336.565,"body":"to make sure that like we're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1336.565,"endTime":1339.585,"body":"creating the space for other"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1336.565,"endTime":1339.585,"body":"people to use their voice too."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1339.685,"endTime":1341.665,"body":"It can be really easy for us"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1339.685,"endTime":1341.665,"body":"to dominate a conversation"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1341.665,"endTime":1343.695,"body":"and take over and say, this is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1341.665,"endTime":1343.695,"body":"exactly what we're going to do."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1343.705,"endTime":1344.625,"body":"I don't want to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1343.705,"endTime":1344.625,"body":"hear anything else."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1345.03,"endTime":1347.61,"body":"But other people have really"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1345.03,"endTime":1347.61,"body":"good ideas and making sure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1347.61,"endTime":1349.3999999999999,"body":"that they have a space"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1347.61,"endTime":1349.3999999999999,"body":"to speak up is important."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1349.66,"endTime":1350.1499999999999,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1350.27,"endTime":1351.85,"body":"A couple more questions"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1350.27,"endTime":1351.85,"body":"coming in from members"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1351.85,"endTime":1352.79,"body":"here, which is amazing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1352.8799999999999,"endTime":1353.25,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1353.53,"endTime":1355.37,"body":"Yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1353.53,"endTime":1355.37,"body":"really is awesome to see."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1355.37,"endTime":1356.96,"body":"So we're going to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1355.37,"endTime":1356.96,"body":"jump through it out."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1356.98,"endTime":1359.19,"body":"These are, I'm sad, I don't"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1356.98,"endTime":1359.19,"body":"have time to trim these down."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1360.77,"body":"So they're a little wordy,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1360.77,"body":"but we'll go through it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1360.97,"endTime":1362.35,"body":"And this one actually"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1360.97,"endTime":1362.35,"body":"has a bit of backstory."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1362.35,"endTime":1363.69,"body":"So I'm going to read"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1362.35,"endTime":1363.69,"body":"a little bit more from"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1363.69,"endTime":1365.6299999999999,"body":"the chat here before"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1363.69,"endTime":1365.6299999999999,"body":"heading into the question."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1365.8799999999999,"endTime":1368.86,"body":"So this is a person who's new to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1365.8799999999999,"endTime":1368.86,"body":"project management and they're"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1368.86,"endTime":1370.17,"body":"trying to transition into it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1370.45,"endTime":1372.67,"body":"I've always been an"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1370.45,"endTime":1372.67,"body":"unofficial project manager"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1372.67,"endTime":1375.72,"body":"in previous jobs where I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1372.67,"endTime":1375.72,"body":"managed teams, supervised"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1375.72,"endTime":1378.19,"body":"employees and budgets, and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1375.72,"endTime":1378.19,"body":"I have enjoyed doing that."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1378.8,"endTime":1380.71,"body":"However, I have been having"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1378.8,"endTime":1380.71,"body":"some difficulty landing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1380.71,"endTime":1382.79,"body":"work because my computer"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1380.71,"endTime":1382.79,"body":"skills are not up to date."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1383.215,"endTime":1386.405,"body":"I'm not familiar with"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1383.215,"endTime":1386.405,"body":"SQL, Tableau, or Power BI."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1386.5149999999999,"endTime":1389.215,"body":"And just for the record, neither"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1386.5149999999999,"endTime":1389.215,"body":"am I with any of those things."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1390.785,"endTime":1392.545,"body":"Software is something I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1390.785,"endTime":1392.545,"body":"can learn, however, is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1392.545,"endTime":1395.225,"body":"there a good strategy to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1392.545,"endTime":1395.225,"body":"consider when job hunting?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1395.7749999999999,"endTime":1396.2649999999999,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1396.605,"endTime":1398.635,"body":"Tools either."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1400.605,"endTime":1401.175,"body":"None of them."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1401.575,"endTime":1404.295,"body":"I think, I'm trying to figure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1401.575,"endTime":1404.295,"body":"out how to word this because it"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1404.365,"endTime":1405.925,"body":"might come off very nonchalant."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1405.925,"endTime":1407.415,"body":"Do you even want to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1405.925,"endTime":1407.415,"body":"know those tools?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1407.825,"endTime":1410.595,"body":"Do you even want to be that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1407.825,"endTime":1410.595,"body":"technical and that ingrained?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1410.855,"endTime":1413.285,"body":"If not, if you're like,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1410.855,"endTime":1413.285,"body":"God, I have no interest in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1413.285,"endTime":1415.7549999999999,"body":"getting to know Tableau, that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1413.285,"endTime":1415.7549999999999,"body":"role might not be for you."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1416.075,"endTime":1419.695,"body":"I think there are different"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1416.075,"endTime":1419.695,"body":"tiers of tools that project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1419.695,"endTime":1420.595,"body":"managers use, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1420.605,"endTime":1422.475,"body":"Like a baseline, you got"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1420.605,"endTime":1422.475,"body":"to know how to use either"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1422.475,"endTime":1423.595,"body":"Smartsheet or MS Project."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1423.955,"endTime":1425.625,"body":"You've got to know"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1423.955,"endTime":1425.625,"body":"how to use JIRA."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1425.955,"endTime":1428.945,"body":"You've got to know Excel or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1425.955,"endTime":1428.945,"body":"Google Sheets or whatever"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1429.0049999999999,"endTime":1430.175,"body":"spreadsheet program, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1430.225,"endTime":1432.182,"body":"But if you know how"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1430.225,"endTime":1432.182,"body":"to use Confluence and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1432.182,"endTime":1435.8899999999999,"body":"JIRA, and Smartsheet and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1432.182,"endTime":1435.8899999999999,"body":"whatever spreadsheet you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1435.8899999999999,"endTime":1438.6,"body":"use as an organization,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1435.8899999999999,"endTime":1438.6,"body":"you could do this job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1438.6,"endTime":1441.71,"body":"Doesn't matter what technology,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1438.6,"endTime":1441.71,"body":"what platform, what whatever"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1441.75,"endTime":1443.71,"body":"the rest of the team is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1441.75,"endTime":1443.71,"body":"doing, you can do this."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1444.16,"endTime":1445.33,"body":"And so that's an MVP."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1445.37,"endTime":1446.98,"body":"Everything else is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1445.37,"endTime":1446.98,"body":"like a nice to have."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1447.61,"endTime":1449.5,"body":"And so if you don't want"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1447.61,"endTime":1449.5,"body":"to get to know these tools,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1449.54,"endTime":1452.25,"body":"that's, I can tell you, that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1449.54,"endTime":1452.25,"body":"is way too technical for me."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1452.71,"endTime":1455.28,"body":"I've been working in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1452.71,"endTime":1455.28,"body":"technology my entire career"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1455.28,"endTime":1458.24,"body":"and I, there's no way I'd be"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1455.28,"endTime":1458.24,"body":"like, I think I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1458.24,"endTime":1460.17,"body":"wake up today and learn SQL."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1460.18,"endTime":1460.51,"body":"Nope."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1461.095,"endTime":1463.615,"body":"I don't want to because I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1461.095,"endTime":1463.615,"body":"want to focus more on problem"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1463.615,"endTime":1468.125,"body":"solving, on conflict resolution,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1463.615,"endTime":1468.125,"body":"on delivery strategy, and that's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1468.125,"endTime":1469.2749999999999,"body":"how I've been my entire career."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1469.585,"endTime":1472.935,"body":"Not just as the leader of a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1469.585,"endTime":1472.935,"body":"delivery organization, but"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1472.935,"endTime":1476.5149999999999,"body":"when I was a PM, I had no"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1472.935,"endTime":1476.5149999999999,"body":"interest in understanding the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1476.5249999999999,"endTime":1479.315,"body":"ins and outs and like all of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1476.5249999999999,"endTime":1479.315,"body":"the details of the technology."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1479.545,"endTime":1481.475,"body":"I didn't understand the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1479.545,"endTime":1481.475,"body":"risks that came with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1481.475,"endTime":1483.385,"body":"it, I had to understand"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1481.475,"endTime":1483.385,"body":"high level dependencies"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1483.71,"endTime":1484.59,"body":"of the technologies."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1484.6299999999999,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"But if you don't want to be that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1484.6299999999999,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"technical, you don't have to be."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1488.56,"endTime":1491.36,"body":"You can find a role where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1488.56,"endTime":1491.36,"body":"Smartsheet is good enough."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1491.67,"endTime":1493.91,"body":"Yeah, but"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1491.67,"endTime":1493.91,"body":"that's a really great summary."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1493.91,"endTime":1496.5,"body":"And I think that I mean, a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1493.91,"endTime":1496.5,"body":"lot of people in the chat are"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1496.53,"endTime":1498.99,"body":"mentioning as well that they,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1496.53,"endTime":1498.99,"body":"I don't, not a single person"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1499.0,"endTime":1501.85,"body":"has mentioned that they use"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1499.0,"endTime":1501.85,"body":"those tools at this time."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1502.29,"endTime":1505.27,"body":"So I think it just goes to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1502.29,"endTime":1505.27,"body":"show that unless the role is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1505.27,"endTime":1507.27,"body":"specifically asking for it,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1505.27,"endTime":1507.27,"body":"but then I feel like it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1507.28,"endTime":1510.155,"body":"maybe not a true PM role."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1510.155,"endTime":1512.135,"body":"And it sounds like it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1510.155,"endTime":1512.135,"body":"a bit of a hybrid that's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1512.195,"endTime":1515.085,"body":"maybe asking probably"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1512.195,"endTime":1515.085,"body":"too much of you as a PM."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1515.415,"endTime":1516.495,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1515.415,"endTime":1516.495,"body":"there's also a difference"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1516.495,"endTime":1519.365,"body":"between a DPM and a TPM."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1519.845,"endTime":1523.035,"body":"This feels more like a technical"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1519.845,"endTime":1523.035,"body":"project management role."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1523.345,"endTime":1526.19,"body":"A DPM role is you don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1523.345,"endTime":1526.19,"body":"have to be that technical."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1526.55,"endTime":1528.46,"body":"So there is a separation"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1526.55,"endTime":1528.46,"body":"there a little bit too."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1528.74,"endTime":1531.43,"body":"I have a role open on my"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1528.74,"endTime":1531.43,"body":"team right now for a TPM"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1531.49,"endTime":1534.91,"body":"because that person needs to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1531.49,"endTime":1534.91,"body":"run the whole CICD pipeline"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1534.94,"endTime":1536.71,"body":"for a large scale client."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1536.8899999999999,"endTime":1538.24,"body":"That's something that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1536.8899999999999,"endTime":1538.24,"body":"nobody on my team has the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1538.24,"endTime":1539.34,"body":"technical expertise to do."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1539.695,"endTime":1540.385,"body":"And that's okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1540.645,"endTime":1540.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1540.875,"endTime":1543.645,"body":"I think another great point"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1540.875,"endTime":1543.645,"body":"too is I mean, using some of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1543.645,"endTime":1546.055,"body":"these tools might be something"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1543.645,"endTime":1546.055,"body":"that you can delegate to people"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1546.2749999999999,"endTime":1548.535,"body":"on our team that are, that"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1546.2749999999999,"endTime":1548.535,"body":"work with that tool or that"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1548.535,"endTime":1549.725,"body":"are specialists in that tool."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1549.985,"endTime":1553.315,"body":"Because I mean, not only is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1549.985,"endTime":1553.315,"body":"that, their field doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1553.315,"endTime":1556.475,"body":"that they will be able to take"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1553.315,"endTime":1556.475,"body":"on a lot more easily and with"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1556.535,"endTime":1558.0,"body":"a lot less kind of headwinds."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1558.24,"endTime":1559.85,"body":"But also delegation, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1558.24,"endTime":1559.85,"body":"mean, we're having this"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1559.86,"endTime":1562.81,"body":"talk about, moving up and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1559.86,"endTime":1562.81,"body":"looking at getting to the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1562.81,"endTime":1564.35,"body":"next level in your journey."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1564.44,"endTime":1566.56,"body":"Delegation is also a really"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1564.44,"endTime":1566.56,"body":"important skill to have"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1566.57,"endTime":1568.61,"body":"for somebody who's senior,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1566.57,"endTime":1568.61,"body":"because he needs to know"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1568.99,"endTime":1570.17,"body":"when is this a task for me?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1570.17,"endTime":1572.26,"body":"And when is this a task"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1570.17,"endTime":1572.26,"body":"for somebody else so"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1572.26,"endTime":1574.67,"body":"that I can focus the, the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1572.26,"endTime":1574.67,"body":"more important things."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1575.415,"endTime":1577.615,"body":"Yeah, I will say"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1575.415,"endTime":1577.615,"body":"that if there's one tool that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1577.855,"endTime":1581.635,"body":"felt too technical for us a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1577.855,"endTime":1581.635,"body":"couple of years ago, and now we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1581.635,"endTime":1584.225,"body":"need to start adopting it, it"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1581.635,"endTime":1584.225,"body":"is everything in the AI realm."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1584.7649999999999,"endTime":1587.785,"body":"We need to start automating"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1584.7649999999999,"endTime":1587.785,"body":"our project reporting."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1587.895,"endTime":1590.5049999999999,"body":"Like clients are starting"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1587.895,"endTime":1590.5049999999999,"body":"to ask for it, even in RFPs."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1590.545,"endTime":1593.915,"body":"Like, how do you leverage AI in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1590.545,"endTime":1593.915,"body":"every facet of your delivery,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1594.115,"endTime":1596.245,"body":"even down to project management?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1596.695,"endTime":1598.815,"body":"So that's the one tool that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1596.695,"endTime":1598.815,"body":"we've got to start wrapping"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1598.815,"endTime":1600.995,"body":"our heads around and figuring"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1598.815,"endTime":1600.995,"body":"out how to introduce them"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1601.0149999999999,"endTime":1602.875,"body":"into project management"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1601.0149999999999,"endTime":1602.875,"body":"in a more mature way."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1603.245,"endTime":1604.0249999999999,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1603.245,"endTime":1604.0249999999999,"body":"very good point."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1604.285,"endTime":1605.915,"body":"All right, let's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1604.285,"endTime":1605.915,"body":"jump on to the next."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1605.915,"endTime":1607.655,"body":"This is another question"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1605.915,"endTime":1607.655,"body":"that came in from the chat."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1607.875,"endTime":1609.5049999999999,"body":"These are fantastic, by the way."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1609.855,"endTime":1610.905,"body":"So we're going to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1609.855,"endTime":1610.905,"body":"go into this one."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1611.145,"endTime":1613.395,"body":"How can I speak about my"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1611.145,"endTime":1613.395,"body":"experience when I don't have the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1613.395,"endTime":1614.915,"body":"job title of project manager?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1614.955,"endTime":1617.495,"body":"I've worked on many projects"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1614.955,"endTime":1617.495,"body":"in my consulting business and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1617.495,"endTime":1620.715,"body":"previous jobs, but I don't have"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1617.495,"endTime":1620.715,"body":"the experience managing budget"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1620.735,"endTime":1625.095,"body":"or the formal, in quotation"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1620.735,"endTime":1625.095,"body":"marks, framework in PM work yet."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1625.605,"endTime":1626.815,"body":"Then"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1625.605,"endTime":1626.815,"body":"you're a project manager."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1627.685,"endTime":1631.725,"body":"If you have experience working"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1627.685,"endTime":1631.725,"body":"on projects, consulting"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1631.735,"endTime":1633.305,"body":"on projects, you're a PM."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1633.895,"endTime":1636.7549999999999,"body":"Maybe just without the title"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1633.895,"endTime":1636.7549999999999,"body":"and talk about it like that."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1636.915,"endTime":1640.685,"body":"You can say that wasn't an"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1636.915,"endTime":1640.685,"body":"official title in like in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1640.685,"endTime":1642.855,"body":"the organization that I was"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1640.685,"endTime":1642.855,"body":"working with at that time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1642.855,"endTime":1643.055,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1643.055,"endTime":1644.7749999999999,"body":"That wasn't the title that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1643.055,"endTime":1644.7749999999999,"body":"I held, but here are the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1644.785,"endTime":1645.925,"body":"things that I was doing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1646.185,"endTime":1648.845,"body":"In my first project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1646.185,"endTime":1648.845,"body":"management role that I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1648.845,"endTime":1650.835,"body":"interviewed for, it was for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1648.845,"endTime":1650.835,"body":"a company called Nerdery."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1651.215,"endTime":1653.645,"body":"I still you know how there are"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1651.215,"endTime":1653.645,"body":"like some things that stick with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1653.645,"endTime":1656.305,"body":"you where you feel like they're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1653.645,"endTime":1656.305,"body":"really embarrassing and you made"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1656.305,"endTime":1658.405,"body":"them like these decisions or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1656.305,"endTime":1658.405,"body":"these things that you tell like,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1658.805,"endTime":1661.795,"body":"well, 15, 20 years ago, and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1658.805,"endTime":1661.795,"body":"they're just stuck in your brain"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1661.795,"endTime":1662.7549999999999,"body":"and you think about them a lot."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1663.075,"endTime":1664.215,"body":"This is that moment for me."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1664.615,"endTime":1668.435,"body":"I had previously been a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1664.615,"endTime":1668.435,"body":"traffic manager, and that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1668.435,"endTime":1673.395,"body":"was the most like applicable"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1668.435,"endTime":1673.395,"body":"role to or like relevant"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1673.395,"endTime":1675.815,"body":"role that I had previously"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1673.395,"endTime":1675.815,"body":"held to project management."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1676.105,"endTime":1679.495,"body":"And so I was applying to Nerdery"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1676.105,"endTime":1679.495,"body":"for a project manager role."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1679.675,"endTime":1682.335,"body":"I didn't move into my"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1679.675,"endTime":1682.335,"body":"first PM role at a company"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1682.335,"endTime":1683.245,"body":"that I already worked for."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1683.245,"endTime":1684.475,"body":"I applied to it blindly."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1684.915,"endTime":1687.465,"body":"And when I was interviewing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1684.915,"endTime":1687.465,"body":"with them, they said,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1687.465,"endTime":1690.145,"body":"well, how many projects"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1687.465,"endTime":1690.145,"body":"can you run simultaneously?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1690.145,"endTime":1691.975,"body":"What is the most that you've"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1690.145,"endTime":1691.975,"body":"been able to handle at a time?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1692.245,"endTime":1695.695,"body":"And I, because I was a traffic"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1692.245,"endTime":1695.695,"body":"manager previously, which like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1695.705,"endTime":1698.7649999999999,"body":"in old school agency days,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1695.705,"endTime":1698.7649999999999,"body":"if anybody is a dinosaur,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1698.7649999999999,"endTime":1701.7649999999999,"body":"like I am, like I ran around"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1698.7649999999999,"endTime":1701.7649999999999,"body":"with job jacket all day long"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1701.7649999999999,"endTime":1704.995,"body":"at an agency and marked them"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1701.7649999999999,"endTime":1704.995,"body":"up, marked up print ads with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1704.995,"endTime":1707.78,"body":"my red pen and then gave"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1704.995,"endTime":1707.78,"body":"them back to the designers."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1707.78,"endTime":1708.145,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1708.465,"endTime":1711.945,"body":"So I, like an idiot said,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1708.465,"endTime":1711.945,"body":"running 95 projects right now."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1712.085,"endTime":1714.205,"body":"No, they're 95 print ads, Pam."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1714.79,"endTime":1715.69,"body":"95 print ads."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1716.24,"endTime":1717.97,"body":"And they were like, what?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1718.19,"endTime":1721.8899999999999,"body":"And I was like, yeah, like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1718.19,"endTime":1721.8899999999999,"body":"I have 95 job jackets that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1721.8899999999999,"endTime":1723.1499999999999,"body":"I'm running around with."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1725.12,"body":"And they were like, no"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1725.12,"body":"ma'am, that's not a project."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1725.93,"endTime":1730.2,"body":"But I still talked about"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1725.93,"endTime":1730.2,"body":"how I need to, like in that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1730.2,"endTime":1732.83,"body":"situation, I needed to set"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1730.2,"endTime":1732.83,"body":"expectations with the designers."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1732.83,"endTime":1734.09,"body":"I was building"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1732.83,"endTime":1734.09,"body":"out the timelines."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1734.12,"endTime":1736.41,"body":"I was providing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1734.12,"endTime":1736.41,"body":"feedback on their work."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1736.41,"endTime":1738.08,"body":"I had to go to creative"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1736.41,"endTime":1738.08,"body":"directors and tell"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1738.08,"endTime":1740.62,"body":"them like, this looks"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1738.08,"endTime":1740.62,"body":"like crap, do it again."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1741.165,"endTime":1744.135,"body":"And I was, I still leaned"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1741.165,"endTime":1744.135,"body":"on the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1744.145,"endTime":1746.685,"body":"skills that were required"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1744.145,"endTime":1746.685,"body":"just at a smaller scale."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1747.085,"endTime":1747.835,"body":"And I got the job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1748.295,"endTime":1751.185,"body":"That experience ended up"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1748.295,"endTime":1751.185,"body":"like the 95 job jackets"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1751.195,"endTime":1754.365,"body":"also meant that I can handle"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1751.195,"endTime":1754.365,"body":"20 projects with ease when"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1754.365,"endTime":1755.495,"body":"I got into agency land."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1755.495,"endTime":1758.375,"body":"And I ended up being the place"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1755.495,"endTime":1758.375,"body":"where like they threw the little"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1758.375,"endTime":1761.165,"body":"guys at me because I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1758.375,"endTime":1761.165,"body":"cracking under the pressure of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1761.435,"endTime":1763.705,"body":"a ton of different clients at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1761.435,"endTime":1763.705,"body":"once the way that other people"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1763.705,"endTime":1765.405,"body":"were because I'm 95 job jacket."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1765.7749999999999,"endTime":1768.5249999999999,"body":"And that was what they saw"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1765.7749999999999,"endTime":1768.5249999999999,"body":"in the interview, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1768.5249999999999,"endTime":1770.915,"body":"Like she can handle a bunch"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1768.5249999999999,"endTime":1770.915,"body":"of competing priorities."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1770.925,"endTime":1772.565,"body":"She can manage, even"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1770.925,"endTime":1772.565,"body":"though there are only"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1772.575,"endTime":1774.985,"body":"three day timelines for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1772.575,"endTime":1774.985,"body":"these print ads, she's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1774.985,"endTime":1776.335,"body":"building 95 of them at once."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1776.855,"endTime":1780.295,"body":"So find things like that,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1776.855,"endTime":1780.295,"body":"where you can say, this is a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1780.295,"endTime":1784.315,"body":"skill set in project management"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1780.295,"endTime":1784.315,"body":"that I know I'm going to need"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1784.315,"endTime":1785.555,"body":"to have, and I can do it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1785.555,"endTime":1788.105,"body":"And I have experience and I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1785.555,"endTime":1788.105,"body":"have proof that I can do it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1788.605,"endTime":1789.845,"body":"So it's a long winded story."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1789.865,"endTime":1794.405,"body":"I think it is"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1789.865,"endTime":1794.405,"body":"so important because I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1794.785,"endTime":1797.085,"body":"yeah, like these are the stories"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1794.785,"endTime":1797.085,"body":"that we're all living through."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1797.085,"endTime":1798.905,"body":"I mean, like you said,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1797.085,"endTime":1798.905,"body":"we all have the stories"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1798.905,"endTime":1801.725,"body":"of the moments where they"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1798.905,"endTime":1801.725,"body":"stick with us forever."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1801.725,"endTime":1803.455,"body":"And they're like those"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1801.725,"endTime":1803.455,"body":"little subtle reminders"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1803.455,"endTime":1806.915,"body":"about what we need to work"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1803.455,"endTime":1806.915,"body":"on or we need to improve."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1806.915,"endTime":1809.7549999999999,"body":"And maybe how it's just the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1806.915,"endTime":1809.7549999999999,"body":"lessons that we learned and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1809.7549999999999,"endTime":1810.735,"body":"how to get to where we are."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1810.985,"endTime":1811.675,"body":"Funny story."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1811.705,"endTime":1813.135,"body":"I cannot believe"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1811.705,"endTime":1813.135,"body":"Nerdery hired me."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1813.165,"endTime":1816.5249999999999,"body":"So they also, as a part of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1813.165,"endTime":1816.5249999999999,"body":"that interview process, you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1816.5249999999999,"endTime":1817.785,"body":"take an assessment, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1817.785,"endTime":1820.2549999999999,"body":"There actually was a project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1817.785,"endTime":1820.2549999999999,"body":"management like test thing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1820.2549999999999,"endTime":1822.405,"body":"that you take as a part"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1820.2549999999999,"endTime":1822.405,"body":"of the interview process."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1822.785,"endTime":1826.635,"body":"And I had to Google the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1822.785,"endTime":1826.635,"body":"difference between front end and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1826.675,"endTime":1830.055,"body":"back end because I had no idea"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1826.675,"endTime":1830.055,"body":"when I was taking that test."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1830.205,"endTime":1831.735,"body":"I had no idea."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1831.745,"endTime":1833.685,"body":"I was like, isn't it just code?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1834.175,"endTime":1835.465,"body":"The front end."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1835.865,"endTime":1837.5249999999999,"body":"I have no idea how"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1835.865,"endTime":1837.5249999999999,"body":"I got a job there."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1837.935,"endTime":1839.735,"body":"Well, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1837.935,"endTime":1839.735,"body":"it worked out well as though."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1840.235,"endTime":1841.535,"body":"It worked out."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1841.715,"endTime":1842.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1842.305,"endTime":1844.205,"body":"I mean, now you know the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1842.305,"endTime":1844.205,"body":"difference, which is important."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1844.315,"endTime":1845.305,"body":"I do."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1846.445,"endTime":1846.685,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1846.685,"endTime":1847.045,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1847.045,"endTime":1849.725,"body":"We're going to jump to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1847.045,"endTime":1849.725,"body":"another question that"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1849.725,"endTime":1850.935,"body":"came in from the chat."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1851.095,"endTime":1852.0049999999999,"body":"This is amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1852.0049999999999,"endTime":1852.735,"body":"Keep them coming."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1853.135,"endTime":1853.625,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1853.665,"endTime":1854.915,"body":"This one, here we go."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1855.0249999999999,"endTime":1858.07,"body":"Do you ever see roles that are"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1855.0249999999999,"endTime":1858.07,"body":"a mixture of digital project"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1858.11,"endTime":1859.66,"body":"management and digital design?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1860.07,"endTime":1863.27,"body":"If so, how do you suggest"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1860.07,"endTime":1863.27,"body":"highlighting both skill sets in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1863.27,"endTime":1867.03,"body":"my resume or in the interview"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":1863.27,"endTime":1867.03,"body":"to land this type of role?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1868.1,"endTime":1871.51,"body":"Okay, so you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1868.1,"endTime":1871.51,"body":"gonna see hybrid roles like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1871.51,"endTime":1876.1,"body":"this in smaller agencies"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1871.51,"endTime":1876.1,"body":"or in-house where there is"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1876.1,"endTime":1877.61,"body":"you need to combine roles."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1877.95,"endTime":1883.32,"body":"I haven't seen hybrid roles like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1877.95,"endTime":1883.32,"body":"this at larger scale agencies"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1883.53,"endTime":1886.48,"body":"because there is enough work"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1883.53,"endTime":1886.48,"body":"to silo it off and have just"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1887.22,"endTime":1888.79,"body":"project manager, just, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1889.42,"endTime":1892.22,"body":"The one role that I am seeing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1889.42,"endTime":1892.22,"body":"quite a bit of crossover"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1892.43,"endTime":1896.48,"body":"between project management"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1892.43,"endTime":1896.48,"body":"and like more of the more"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1896.48,"endTime":1899.25,"body":"with like more on the creative"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1896.48,"endTime":1899.25,"body":"side is around content."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1899.58,"endTime":1902.23,"body":"So quite a few people on"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1899.58,"endTime":1902.23,"body":"my team are helping with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1902.6,"endTime":1903.79,"body":"some content strategy."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1904.6499999999999,"endTime":1906.78,"body":"We'll help with site"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1904.6499999999999,"endTime":1906.78,"body":"audits, we'll help with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1906.87,"endTime":1908.5,"body":"developing tachronomy."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1908.85,"endTime":1911.76,"body":"And then all the way"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1908.85,"endTime":1911.76,"body":"through, we're doing less"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1911.81,"endTime":1914.8799999999999,"body":"content creation, but a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1911.81,"endTime":1914.8799999999999,"body":"lot of content offering."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1915.26,"endTime":1919.05,"body":"And so I'm seeing a lot of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1915.26,"endTime":1919.05,"body":"crossover in the content arena."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1919.26,"endTime":1923.8899999999999,"body":"I actually haven't seen a lot"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1919.26,"endTime":1923.8899999999999,"body":"in like actual design, but that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1923.8899999999999,"endTime":1924.8,"body":"doesn't mean it's not out there."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1925.3999999999999,"endTime":1926.98,"body":"I've worked at larger agencies."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1927.03,"endTime":1930.125,"body":"I spent quite a bit of time"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1927.03,"endTime":1930.125,"body":"at Wunderman Thompson and at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1930.545,"endTime":1933.635,"body":"Hero Digital right now, which"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1930.545,"endTime":1933.635,"body":"is my team is 85 people on the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1933.635,"endTime":1936.345,"body":"delivery side, like they're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1933.635,"endTime":1936.345,"body":"a little bit larger scale."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1936.725,"endTime":1938.0149999999999,"body":"Again, it doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1936.725,"endTime":1938.0149999999999,"body":"it's not out there."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1938.045,"endTime":1942.735,"body":"I would say no matter what,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1938.045,"endTime":1942.735,"body":"very few people are solely"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1942.735,"endTime":1946.195,"body":"project managers and don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1942.735,"endTime":1946.195,"body":"cross into other fence."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1946.5249999999999,"endTime":1950.0049999999999,"body":"I like to say that all of, for"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1946.5249999999999,"endTime":1950.0049999999999,"body":"project managers, when we're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1950.235,"endTime":1952.845,"body":"moving forward in a project,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1950.235,"endTime":1952.845,"body":"we are on a four lane highway"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1952.845,"endTime":1954.135,"body":"with dotted lines between them."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1954.145,"endTime":1955.915,"body":"Like we need to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1954.145,"endTime":1955.915,"body":"cross into creative."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1955.945,"endTime":1957.045,"body":"We need to cross into QA."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1957.045,"endTime":1959.175,"body":"We need to cross into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1957.045,"endTime":1959.175,"body":"development, cross into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1959.175,"endTime":1960.785,"body":"client services and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1959.175,"endTime":1960.785,"body":"come back to our lane."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1961.3799999999999,"endTime":1963.97,"body":"And so you, no matter where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1961.3799999999999,"endTime":1963.97,"body":"you work, how large of an"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1963.97,"endTime":1968.12,"body":"agency or a company that you're"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1963.97,"endTime":1968.12,"body":"at, you do have skill sets"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1968.12,"endTime":1970.57,"body":"across in other disciplines,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1968.12,"endTime":1970.57,"body":"whether it's creative or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1970.57,"endTime":1973.24,"body":"QA or client services or"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1970.57,"endTime":1973.24,"body":"development or whatever."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1973.6499999999999,"endTime":1975.78,"body":"And there are absolutely"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1973.6499999999999,"endTime":1975.78,"body":"ways to highlight those."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1975.83,"endTime":1980.095,"body":"You can say that you, for me"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1975.83,"endTime":1980.095,"body":"I, I've, I spent, I served"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1980.095,"endTime":1983.995,"body":"as the QA lead on one of the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1980.095,"endTime":1983.995,"body":"largest projects I ever ran."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1984.375,"endTime":1988.735,"body":"It was like a $6 million project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1984.375,"endTime":1988.735,"body":"and I was like deep in QA."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1989.475,"endTime":1990.725,"body":"Better bet that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1989.475,"endTime":1990.725,"body":"that's on my resume."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1990.725,"endTime":1991.715,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1991.7649999999999,"endTime":1996.105,"body":"Ran QA for a $6 million web"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1991.7649999999999,"endTime":1996.105,"body":"native android and native iOS"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1996.105,"endTime":1998.785,"body":"application for one of the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1996.105,"endTime":1998.785,"body":"largest companies in the world."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1999.095,"endTime":1999.555,"body":"Yup."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":1999.975,"endTime":2000.725,"body":"That's on my resume."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2000.915,"endTime":2002.7549999999999,"body":"You can just call it out"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2000.915,"endTime":2002.7549999999999,"body":"and see what it is, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2002.7549999999999,"endTime":2005.345,"body":"If you're doing design"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2002.7549999999999,"endTime":2005.345,"body":"work, put it on your resume."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2005.355,"endTime":2006.845,"body":"You don't need to say that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2005.355,"endTime":2006.845,"body":"you did it through the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2006.845,"endTime":2007.795,"body":"lens of project management."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2007.825,"endTime":2009.7649999999999,"body":"No, you're just doing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2007.825,"endTime":2009.7649999999999,"body":"it and that's okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2010.135,"endTime":2010.675,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2010.675,"endTime":2011.0049999999999,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2011.355,"endTime":2013.165,"body":"I think you landed"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2011.355,"endTime":2013.165,"body":"that one perfectly."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2013.165,"endTime":2014.735,"body":"I'm having, I have nothing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2013.165,"endTime":2014.735,"body":"to add to that one."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2015.095,"endTime":2015.985,"body":"No, but that's a good point."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2015.985,"endTime":2016.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2016.085,"endTime":2017.875,"body":"Just throw it on there,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2016.085,"endTime":2017.875,"body":"if it's any kind of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2017.875,"endTime":2019.285,"body":"relevant information."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2019.985,"endTime":2020.175,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2020.175,"endTime":2022.815,"body":"Let's move on to the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2020.175,"endTime":2022.815,"body":"next question here."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2023.045,"endTime":2026.085,"body":"What can PMs do beyond"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2023.045,"endTime":2026.085,"body":"managing projects?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2026.085,"endTime":2027.715,"body":"This actually ties in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2026.085,"endTime":2027.715,"body":"really well with the last"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2027.715,"endTime":2028.605,"body":"question, I think so."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2028.805,"endTime":2030.475,"body":"We'll get into this one."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2030.945,"endTime":2031.575,"body":"Everything."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2032.605,"endTime":2033.5049999999999,"body":"All"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2032.605,"endTime":2033.5049999999999,"body":"right, next question."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2033.545,"endTime":2034.645,"body":"Okay, let's move on."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2035.095,"endTime":2035.2749999999999,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2035.325,"endTime":2037.815,"body":"Really, I mean, I talked"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2035.325,"endTime":2037.815,"body":"about the highway, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2037.815,"endTime":2038.835,"body":"just full of analogies."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2038.885,"endTime":2040.2549999999999,"body":"My team hates this."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2040.865,"endTime":2043.665,"body":"We have a closet full of hats."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2044.305,"endTime":2048.335,"body":"And like for more junior"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2044.305,"endTime":2048.335,"body":"PMs, the hats are today I'm"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2048.335,"endTime":2050.995,"body":"putting on my tactical project"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2048.335,"endTime":2050.995,"body":"management hat, and I'm going"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2050.995,"endTime":2053.645,"body":"to build a timeline today,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2050.995,"endTime":2053.645,"body":"like tomorrow, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2053.645,"endTime":2055.585,"body":"put on my strategic product"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2053.645,"endTime":2055.585,"body":"management hat, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2055.585,"endTime":2058.775,"body":"going to poke holes in our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2055.585,"endTime":2058.775,"body":"overall delivery plan, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2058.8250000000003,"endTime":2062.6150000000002,"body":"The hat might change in how"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2058.8250000000003,"endTime":2062.6150000000002,"body":"broad they get throughout"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2062.6150000000002,"endTime":2064.415,"body":"the course of your career,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2062.6150000000002,"endTime":2064.415,"body":"but when you become a little"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2064.415,"endTime":2068.105,"body":"bit more senior, the hats"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2064.415,"endTime":2068.105,"body":"become today I'm in QA, today,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2068.295,"endTime":2069.8450000000003,"body":"I am doing a code review."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2070.295,"endTime":2072.655,"body":"Today, I'm going to go"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2070.295,"endTime":2072.655,"body":"sit down with my design"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2072.6650000000004,"endTime":2074.355,"body":"team and I'm going to act"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2072.6650000000004,"endTime":2074.355,"body":"as a creative director."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2074.355,"endTime":2076.485,"body":"And I'm going to say that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2074.355,"endTime":2076.485,"body":"the homepage design that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2076.485,"endTime":2079.0550000000003,"body":"they're about to go and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2076.485,"endTime":2079.0550000000003,"body":"present to the client cannot"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2079.0550000000003,"endTime":2081.885,"body":"happen for this reason, this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2079.0550000000003,"endTime":2081.885,"body":"reason, this reason, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2081.895,"endTime":2086.2850000000003,"body":"Like the hats get more broad the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2081.895,"endTime":2086.2850000000003,"body":"further you get in your career."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2086.645,"endTime":2088.6650000000004,"body":"We do everything,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2086.645,"endTime":2088.6650000000004,"body":"and that's okay."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2089.005,"endTime":2091.177,"body":"I mean, I said this already,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2089.005,"endTime":2091.177,"body":"like it's not our job to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2091.177,"endTime":2092.405,"body":"actually solve all the problems."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2092.405,"endTime":2094.145,"body":"It is our job to make sure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2092.405,"endTime":2094.145,"body":"that they're all solved."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2094.375,"endTime":2097.235,"body":"Sometimes that means stepping"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2094.375,"endTime":2097.235,"body":"into somebody else's lawn and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2097.235,"endTime":2098.0950000000003,"body":"putting a stake in the ground."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2098.4550000000004,"endTime":2100.6150000000002,"body":"Because if we don't speak up"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2098.4550000000004,"endTime":2100.6150000000002,"body":"and we see something wrong,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2100.925,"endTime":2101.695,"body":"we're not doing our job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2102.085,"endTime":2106.195,"body":"So we do everything tactically"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2102.085,"endTime":2106.195,"body":"outside of projects."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2106.7450000000003,"endTime":2108.6650000000004,"body":"We should be helping with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2106.7450000000003,"endTime":2108.6650000000004,"body":"things like resourcing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2109.2050000000004,"endTime":2112.3650000000002,"body":"We see everything that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2109.2050000000004,"endTime":2112.3650000000002,"body":"happens within a company"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2112.3650000000002,"endTime":2113.4150000000004,"body":"or within an agency."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2113.545,"endTime":2114.8450000000003,"body":"We can help with resourcing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2115.155,"endTime":2117.585,"body":"We can help with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2115.155,"endTime":2117.585,"body":"account planning."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2117.92,"endTime":2120.61,"body":"We can help with"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2117.92,"endTime":2120.61,"body":"financial management at"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2120.61,"endTime":2122.11,"body":"an organizational level."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2122.3700000000003,"endTime":2126.8700000000003,"body":"I look at our margin reports"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2122.3700000000003,"endTime":2126.8700000000003,"body":"for every client and a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2126.8700000000003,"endTime":2129.25,"body":"roll up for our entire"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2126.8700000000003,"endTime":2129.25,"body":"organization every week."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2129.52,"endTime":2132.8,"body":"I need to know what our gross"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2129.52,"endTime":2132.8,"body":"margin trends are for the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2132.8,"endTime":2135.1200000000003,"body":"entire company, even though I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2132.8,"endTime":2135.1200000000003,"body":"just run project management."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2135.51,"endTime":2137.0150000000003,"body":"Because that's in our skill set."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2137.0150000000003,"endTime":2138.275,"body":"We run budgets for a living."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2138.6150000000002,"endTime":2140.565,"body":"We can help do that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2138.6150000000002,"endTime":2140.565,"body":"for the company."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2141.215,"endTime":2144.7850000000003,"body":"I actually, I think one of our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2141.215,"endTime":2144.7850000000003,"body":"biggest value adds that we bring"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2144.7850000000003,"endTime":2147.895,"body":"to any company, like I said,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2144.7850000000003,"endTime":2147.895,"body":"it's the problem solving thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2148.125,"endTime":2152.0150000000003,"body":"I do an intro to delivery"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2148.125,"endTime":2152.0150000000003,"body":"management for all new hires."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2152.025,"endTime":2155.2450000000003,"body":"Like I'll sit down with every"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2152.025,"endTime":2155.2450000000003,"body":"new hire at Xero and tell them"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2155.2450000000003,"endTime":2157.375,"body":"about our organization, tell"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2155.2450000000003,"endTime":2157.375,"body":"them about what we do as a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2157.375,"endTime":2158.565,"body":"department or as a practice."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2158.675,"endTime":2160.335,"body":"And at the end, I always"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2158.675,"endTime":2160.335,"body":"end it the same way."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2160.4150000000004,"endTime":2164.8450000000003,"body":"I say it is my team job to know"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2160.4150000000004,"endTime":2164.8450000000003,"body":"everything about this company."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2165.105,"endTime":2167.485,"body":"It's my team's job to know"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2165.105,"endTime":2167.485,"body":"where all the bodies are buried"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2167.485,"endTime":2170.675,"body":"and we need to know where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2167.485,"endTime":2170.675,"body":"to go to get information."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2171.425,"endTime":2174.3050000000003,"body":"So if you are onboarding into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2171.425,"endTime":2174.3050000000003,"body":"this company, if you, a new"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2174.3050000000003,"endTime":2176.7850000000003,"body":"employee have no idea where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2174.3050000000003,"endTime":2176.7850000000003,"body":"to start you don't know who"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2176.7850000000003,"endTime":2178.605,"body":"to talk to for benefit stuff."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2178.8450000000003,"endTime":2181.465,"body":"You can't get JIRA"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2178.8450000000003,"endTime":2181.465,"body":"access to save your life."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2181.715,"endTime":2183.755,"body":"You don't know where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2181.715,"endTime":2183.755,"body":"files are saved."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2184.2250000000004,"endTime":2186.1650000000004,"body":"My team will tell you where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2184.2250000000004,"endTime":2186.1650000000004,"body":"to go because that's our job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2186.4750000000004,"endTime":2189.8650000000002,"body":"And even just like planting"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2186.4750000000004,"endTime":2189.8650000000002,"body":"that feed about everybody"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2189.8650000000002,"endTime":2192.63,"body":"in the company should go to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2189.8650000000002,"endTime":2192.63,"body":"project management as the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2192.63,"endTime":2196.07,"body":"center repository for all"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2192.63,"endTime":2196.07,"body":"information makes us invaluable."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2196.4300000000003,"endTime":2199.0400000000004,"body":"I've got project managers who"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2196.4300000000003,"endTime":2199.0400000000004,"body":"are being approached by managing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2199.0400000000004,"endTime":2201.5600000000004,"body":"directors saying, Hey, I don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2199.0400000000004,"endTime":2201.5600000000004,"body":"know where to go for this thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2201.5600000000004,"endTime":2203.07,"body":"And the PM is well,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2201.5600000000004,"endTime":2203.07,"body":"let me help you."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2203.4950000000003,"endTime":2206.1850000000004,"body":"Like we're becoming"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2203.4950000000003,"endTime":2206.1850000000004,"body":"absolutely invaluable as"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2206.255,"endTime":2208.605,"body":"leaders in the company, just"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2206.255,"endTime":2208.605,"body":"because we're speaking up."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2209.025,"endTime":2209.295,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2209.3050000000003,"endTime":2213.605,"body":"The PM really is the hub of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2209.3050000000003,"endTime":2213.605,"body":"the wheel announces the spokes"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2213.605,"endTime":2216.2850000000003,"body":"and all questions can really"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2213.605,"endTime":2216.2850000000003,"body":"go through the PM because yeah,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2216.2850000000003,"endTime":2217.6150000000002,"body":"we, we deal with everyone."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2218.045,"endTime":2218.3450000000003,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2218.385,"endTime":2220.905,"body":"Well, we had another question"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2218.385,"endTime":2220.905,"body":"come in and I think this"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2220.905,"endTime":2223.1650000000004,"body":"one came in from another"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2220.905,"endTime":2223.1650000000004,"body":"member of the chat here."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2223.505,"endTime":2228.26,"body":"If we're feeling stale in DPM"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2223.505,"endTime":2228.26,"body":"land, including doing most other"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2228.26,"endTime":2231.09,"body":"digital roles, what are your"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2228.26,"endTime":2231.09,"body":"thoughts about transitioning to"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2231.17,"endTime":2232.7000000000003,"body":"other roles or even industries?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2233.44,"endTime":2235.3300000000004,"body":"I said this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2233.44,"endTime":2235.3300000000004,"body":"earlier about the tools thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2235.76,"endTime":2237.5,"body":"When I was like, you don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2235.76,"endTime":2237.5,"body":"want to use those tools."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2237.5,"endTime":2238.9300000000003,"body":"Is that something that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2237.5,"endTime":2238.9300000000003,"body":"you're interested in?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2239.7200000000003,"endTime":2243.735,"body":"I would suggest pushing back"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2239.7200000000003,"endTime":2243.735,"body":"rear desk, looking at your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2243.735,"endTime":2247.135,"body":"entire role holistically and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2243.735,"endTime":2247.135,"body":"figuring out what you like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2247.3250000000003,"endTime":2248.2250000000004,"body":"and what you don't like."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2248.445,"endTime":2250.525,"body":"Hone in on these are the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2248.445,"endTime":2250.525,"body":"things that I could do every"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2250.525,"endTime":2251.715,"body":"day, day in and day out."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2251.9350000000004,"endTime":2253.395,"body":"I could do this as"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2251.9350000000004,"endTime":2253.395,"body":"a full time job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2253.755,"endTime":2255.045,"body":"And then figure out"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2253.755,"endTime":2255.045,"body":"that first thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2255.4550000000004,"endTime":2257.885,"body":"But I think we've all"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2255.4550000000004,"endTime":2257.885,"body":"gone through ruts where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2257.9150000000004,"endTime":2259.6850000000004,"body":"we were burned out."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2260.175,"endTime":2261.5550000000003,"body":"We don't know if we"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2260.175,"endTime":2261.5550000000003,"body":"want to do this anymore."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2261.5550000000003,"endTime":2263.605,"body":"We're tired, like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2261.5550000000003,"endTime":2263.605,"body":"it feels repetitive."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2263.605,"endTime":2266.425,"body":"How many more"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2263.605,"endTime":2266.425,"body":"timelines can I build?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2266.545,"endTime":2266.8650000000002,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2266.925,"endTime":2268.0550000000003,"body":"We all hit these ruts."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2268.655,"endTime":2272.5400000000004,"body":"And in some cases, pushing"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2268.655,"endTime":2272.5400000000004,"body":"back and saying, what do I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2272.5400000000004,"endTime":2273.6400000000003,"body":"actually like about my job?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2273.94,"endTime":2276.77,"body":"What are the aspects"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2273.94,"endTime":2276.77,"body":"of my role that I love?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2277.38,"endTime":2281.05,"body":"Pulling those apart from the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2277.38,"endTime":2281.05,"body":"mundane feeling stale, the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2281.05,"endTime":2284.7400000000002,"body":"things where you're like, I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2281.05,"endTime":2284.7400000000002,"body":"am so exhausted by this crap."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2285.27,"endTime":2287.23,"body":"Pulling out the pieces that you"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2285.27,"endTime":2287.23,"body":"love and then figuring out if"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2287.23,"endTime":2290.6400000000003,"body":"there's a way to just do those"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2287.23,"endTime":2290.6400000000003,"body":"as a job is where I would start."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2291.155,"endTime":2293.835,"body":"There are other industries"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2291.155,"endTime":2293.835,"body":"and like roles for sure that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2293.835,"endTime":2296.175,"body":"you can move into, like moving"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2293.835,"endTime":2296.175,"body":"from agency to consulting"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2296.175,"endTime":2297.315,"body":"is a really easy transition."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2297.8450000000003,"endTime":2301.8450000000003,"body":"I actually, I went through this"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2297.8450000000003,"endTime":2301.8450000000003,"body":"when I left Wunderman Thompson."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2302.2650000000003,"endTime":2305.835,"body":"I left Wunderman Thompson in"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2302.2650000000003,"endTime":2305.835,"body":"2020 as the head of product"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2305.835,"endTime":2309.2850000000003,"body":"management for the Midwest"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2305.835,"endTime":2309.2850000000003,"body":"region of Wunderman Thompson."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2309.625,"endTime":2311.8650000000002,"body":"And I was feeling"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2309.625,"endTime":2311.8650000000002,"body":"a little bit fail."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2311.945,"endTime":2314.9750000000004,"body":"I was feeling like I've been"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2311.945,"endTime":2314.9750000000004,"body":"running PMLs for a while."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2315.4750000000004,"endTime":2319.355,"body":"How many more SOWs"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2315.4750000000004,"endTime":2319.355,"body":"can I review, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2319.715,"endTime":2321.565,"body":"That I pushed back and I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2319.715,"endTime":2321.565,"body":"said, what do I really like?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2321.8250000000003,"endTime":2323.0550000000003,"body":"And I said, I like"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2321.8250000000003,"endTime":2323.0550000000003,"body":"solving problems."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2323.565,"endTime":2326.795,"body":"I like stepping into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2323.565,"endTime":2326.795,"body":"a mess and fixing it."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2327.065,"endTime":2331.2450000000003,"body":"I like coming into"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2327.065,"endTime":2331.2450000000003,"body":"like a tangled web of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2331.2450000000003,"endTime":2333.795,"body":"delivery and saying,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2331.2450000000003,"endTime":2333.795,"body":"let's introduce insanity."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2334.085,"endTime":2335.0550000000003,"body":"So I went into consulting."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2335.6000000000004,"endTime":2336.8100000000004,"body":"I said, I think"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2335.6000000000004,"endTime":2336.8100000000004,"body":"that can be a job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2337.15,"endTime":2339.92,"body":"I could just be this expert"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2337.15,"endTime":2339.92,"body":"in delivery consulting."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2339.92,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"I can go to organizations"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2339.92,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"and tell them how they"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2342.8900000000003,"endTime":2344.48,"body":"should be up leveling and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2342.8900000000003,"endTime":2344.48,"body":"maturing their delivery"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2344.48,"endTime":2345.5600000000004,"body":"tactics and their practices."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2346.01,"endTime":2351.19,"body":"And I went into consulting and I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2346.01,"endTime":2351.19,"body":"was so bored because it was all"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2351.19,"endTime":2354.1000000000004,"body":"at my pace and it's there wasn't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2351.19,"endTime":2354.1000000000004,"body":"anything pushing me and I didn't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2354.1000000000004,"endTime":2355.42,"body":"get thrown any curveballs."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2355.4300000000003,"endTime":2358.11,"body":"Like I was the expert"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2355.4300000000003,"endTime":2358.11,"body":"in everything and that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2358.11,"endTime":2359.0800000000004,"body":"was no fun either."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2359.4700000000003,"endTime":2361.2400000000002,"body":"I wasn't challenged anymore."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2361.2400000000002,"endTime":2363.7200000000003,"body":"So I went back to agency"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2361.2400000000002,"endTime":2363.7200000000003,"body":"because it turned out after"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2363.7200000000003,"endTime":2365.65,"body":"I left, the thing that I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2363.7200000000003,"endTime":2365.65,"body":"really liked was chaos."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2367.21,"endTime":2370.3300000000004,"body":"And so now I'm back and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2367.21,"endTime":2370.3300000000004,"body":"I'm never leaving, but"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2370.3300000000004,"endTime":2371.25,"body":"it's okay to take breaks."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2371.32,"endTime":2373.25,"body":"It's okay to try something"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2371.32,"endTime":2373.25,"body":"new and decide you don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2373.25,"endTime":2375.8100000000004,"body":"like it, figure out what"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2373.25,"endTime":2375.8100000000004,"body":"you like and focus on that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2375.9500000000003,"endTime":2376.7000000000003,"body":"and try something else."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2377.21,"endTime":2377.7900000000004,"body":"That's amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2377.8,"endTime":2380.55,"body":"And I think like taking the time"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2377.8,"endTime":2380.55,"body":"to do that is an important step."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2380.88,"endTime":2384.3,"body":"And obviously there's a bit"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2380.88,"endTime":2384.3,"body":"of hesitancy when you're"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2384.3,"endTime":2386.34,"body":"looking at something like"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2384.3,"endTime":2386.34,"body":"that, because maybe you're in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2386.34,"endTime":2389.2200000000003,"body":"a role where you've got things"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2386.34,"endTime":2389.2200000000003,"body":"comfortable, you've got a"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2389.2200000000003,"endTime":2391.5800000000004,"body":"good salary, maybe you've got"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2389.2200000000003,"endTime":2391.5800000000004,"body":"good at working at it, or it"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2391.5800000000004,"endTime":2393.59,"body":"is, and you're a little bit"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2391.5800000000004,"endTime":2393.59,"body":"hesitant to throw that away."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2394.03,"endTime":2396.61,"body":"I mean, this is, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2394.03,"endTime":2396.61,"body":"encouraging anybody to go and"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2396.61,"endTime":2398.46,"body":"quit their job, but I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2396.61,"endTime":2398.46,"body":"just saying as long as you've"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2398.63,"endTime":2402.635,"body":"taken the reasonable steps, you,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2398.63,"endTime":2402.635,"body":"you will be fine on your feet."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2402.9150000000004,"endTime":2405.445,"body":"There are PM jobs out there,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2402.9150000000004,"endTime":2405.445,"body":"especially for somebody"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2405.445,"endTime":2407.295,"body":"who has the experience."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2407.965,"endTime":2410.4550000000004,"body":"And so sometimes it requires,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2407.965,"endTime":2410.4550000000004,"body":"just taking a step back, like"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2410.4550000000004,"endTime":2412.8650000000002,"body":"you mentioned, and just looking"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2410.4550000000004,"endTime":2412.8650000000002,"body":"at things and then figuring"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2412.8650000000002,"endTime":2416.155,"body":"out, do I need to try something"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2412.8650000000002,"endTime":2416.155,"body":"new for a little bit, test the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2416.155,"endTime":2419.375,"body":"waters, and then reassessing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2416.155,"endTime":2419.375,"body":"once you've had that time."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2420.0550000000003,"endTime":2423.855,"body":"Sounds I mean, going from"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2420.0550000000003,"endTime":2423.855,"body":"Wunderman Thompson to consulting"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2423.905,"endTime":2427.15,"body":"really figure that out and so we"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2423.905,"endTime":2427.15,"body":"were able to get back into it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2427.84,"endTime":2431.0600000000004,"body":"And I think the lesson is you"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2427.84,"endTime":2431.0600000000004,"body":"didn't have to start, lower"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2431.0600000000004,"endTime":2434.0400000000004,"body":"down the ladder again, obviously"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2431.0600000000004,"endTime":2434.0400000000004,"body":"you just went back to a similar"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2434.0400000000004,"endTime":2435.15,"body":"position that you had before."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2435.73,"endTime":2438.9500000000003,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2435.73,"endTime":2438.9500000000003,"body":"it was a lot of, again, right"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2438.9500000000003,"endTime":2440.88,"body":"time, right place or right"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2438.9500000000003,"endTime":2440.88,"body":"place, right time, right?"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2440.94,"endTime":2442.61,"body":"It's not like I woke"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2440.94,"endTime":2442.61,"body":"up one day and said,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2442.61,"endTime":2443.38,"body":"Hey, I think I'm bored."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2443.38,"endTime":2444.67,"body":"I'm going to go into consulting."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2444.6800000000003,"endTime":2445.6200000000003,"body":"It took a long time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2445.8700000000003,"endTime":2448.61,"body":"It took a while to find the"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2445.8700000000003,"endTime":2448.61,"body":"right place, find a place where"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2448.61,"endTime":2450.86,"body":"I was going to have autonomy,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2448.61,"endTime":2450.86,"body":"where I could focus on being a"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2450.86,"endTime":2453.6800000000003,"body":"firefighter, where I could do"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2450.86,"endTime":2453.6800000000003,"body":"more of the strategy, where I"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2453.6800000000003,"endTime":2455.07,"body":"could stay in a leadership role."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2455.1200000000003,"endTime":2455.88,"body":"That takes a while."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2455.88,"endTime":2458.545,"body":"And then when I realize that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2455.88,"endTime":2458.545,"body":"consulting wasn't a fit,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2458.9550000000004,"endTime":2462.815,"body":"that took a while too, to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2458.9550000000004,"endTime":2462.815,"body":"find the right place to move"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2462.815,"endTime":2464.065,"body":"on and go back into agency."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2464.405,"endTime":2465.525,"body":"Doesn't happen one night."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2465.545,"endTime":2469.645,"body":"Don't, the biggest piece of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2465.545,"endTime":2469.645,"body":"advice especially in the economy"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2469.645,"endTime":2471.875,"body":"and the state of the world"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2469.645,"endTime":2471.875,"body":"that we're in right now, don't"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2471.875,"endTime":2472.9750000000004,"body":"flip a table and quit your job."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2473.425,"endTime":2474.065,"body":"Take the time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2474.7650000000003,"endTime":2476.605,"body":"Take the time to"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2474.7650000000003,"endTime":2476.605,"body":"find the right thing."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2477.025,"endTime":2479.005,"body":"I mean, y'all we're PAMs."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2479.085,"endTime":2482.145,"body":"We can handle any kind of"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2479.085,"endTime":2482.145,"body":"pain for six months at a time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2482.155,"endTime":2483.5350000000003,"body":"Like we can do this."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2483.86,"endTime":2485.9700000000003,"body":"Even if you hate your"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2483.86,"endTime":2485.9700000000003,"body":"job, don't rage quit."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2486.1600000000003,"endTime":2489.32,"body":"Not right now in this market,"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2486.1600000000003,"endTime":2489.32,"body":"but power through and then find"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2489.32,"endTime":2490.01,"body":"something that's right for you."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2490.44,"endTime":2490.5800000000004,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2490.5800000000004,"endTime":2493.5800000000004,"body":"The other term that I love that"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2490.5800000000004,"endTime":2493.5800000000004,"body":"I heard was like moonlighting."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2493.69,"endTime":2496.34,"body":"So basically, yeah, just hang"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2493.69,"endTime":2496.34,"body":"off the side of your desk"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2496.3500000000004,"endTime":2500.07,"body":"for a bit to see, okay, if"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2496.3500000000004,"endTime":2500.07,"body":"maybe I'm feeling stale here,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2500.07,"endTime":2501.0800000000004,"body":"maybe that's not for me."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2501.3900000000003,"endTime":2503.7200000000003,"body":"Well, what is it that thing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2501.3900000000003,"endTime":2503.7200000000003,"body":"that you might do otherwise?"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2504.07,"endTime":2507.13,"body":"And spend some time doing"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2504.07,"endTime":2507.13,"body":"that on the side, where"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2509.52,"body":"you can maybe volunteer in"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2509.52,"body":"that space or get a little"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2509.52,"endTime":2510.53,"body":"bit of time in that space."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2510.8500000000004,"endTime":2514.78,"body":"And then, yeah, over the course"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2510.8500000000004,"endTime":2514.78,"body":"of three, six months, whatever"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2514.78,"endTime":2517.9900000000002,"body":"it is, feel it out and see"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2514.78,"endTime":2517.9900000000002,"body":"what, what feels more right."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2518.3500000000004,"endTime":2521.19,"body":"And then, constantly"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2518.3500000000004,"endTime":2521.19,"body":"evaluate and assess what"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2521.4300000000003,"endTime":2522.4700000000003,"body":"you think is right for you."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2522.4700000000003,"endTime":2524.5400000000004,"body":"I think it's a big"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2522.4700000000003,"endTime":2524.5400000000004,"body":"first step to take."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2525.07,"endTime":2525.4100000000003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2525.5800000000004,"endTime":2527.9100000000003,"body":"I think I mean, you're all"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2525.5800000000004,"endTime":2527.9100000000003,"body":"already doing this cause"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2527.9100000000003,"endTime":2530.96,"body":"you're here, but also just"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2527.9100000000003,"endTime":2530.96,"body":"building a network too."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2531.755,"endTime":2534.1150000000002,"body":"Understanding what it's"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2531.755,"endTime":2534.1150000000002,"body":"even like in other roles"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2534.1150000000002,"endTime":2535.695,"body":"and under other industries."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2536.3650000000002,"endTime":2538.5550000000003,"body":"I've had three networking"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2536.3650000000002,"endTime":2538.5550000000003,"body":"breakfasts in the last"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2538.5550000000003,"endTime":2542.675,"body":"week, like in really"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2538.5550000000003,"endTime":2542.675,"body":"different industries."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2543.1650000000004,"endTime":2547.1650000000004,"body":"I mean, I talked about that"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2543.1650000000004,"endTime":2547.1650000000004,"body":"person earlier who runs global"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2547.1650000000004,"endTime":2549.4950000000003,"body":"strategy for a trust company."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2549.4950000000003,"endTime":2551.835,"body":"Like she works in finance"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2549.4950000000003,"endTime":2551.835,"body":"that has nothing to do"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2551.835,"endTime":2553.9550000000004,"body":"with what we do, but our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2551.835,"endTime":2553.9550000000004,"body":"challenges and the woman"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2553.9550000000004,"endTime":2554.7650000000003,"body":"in leadership are the same."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2555.3050000000003,"endTime":2560.065,"body":"And our we both have kids"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2555.3050000000003,"endTime":2560.065,"body":"at varying stages in life."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2560.835,"endTime":2563.775,"body":"They're like ages and their"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2560.835,"endTime":2563.775,"body":"challenges are the same and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2563.775,"endTime":2566.2050000000004,"body":"like how we navigate those"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2563.775,"endTime":2566.2050000000004,"body":"while we're navigating our"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2566.255,"endTime":2568.815,"body":"professional lives, build"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2566.255,"endTime":2568.815,"body":"your network of people who"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2568.815,"endTime":2571.315,"body":"are going to help you figure"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2568.815,"endTime":2571.315,"body":"out what you want to do and"},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2571.315,"endTime":2572.005,"body":"help you get through it."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2572.3450000000003,"endTime":2572.885,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2572.945,"endTime":2576.2050000000004,"body":"I'm going to summarize"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2572.945,"endTime":2576.2050000000004,"body":"everything today with a quick"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2576.425,"endTime":2578.835,"body":"takeaway that I think wraps up"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2576.425,"endTime":2578.835,"body":"a lot of the conversation, which"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2578.835,"endTime":2580.1150000000002,"body":"is look at what interests you."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2580.4750000000004,"endTime":2582.145,"body":"Look for the gaps, solve them."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2582.6850000000004,"endTime":2585.4750000000004,"body":"And I think that if you take"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2582.6850000000004,"endTime":2585.4750000000004,"body":"away anything from today, that's"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2585.525,"endTime":2587.7450000000003,"body":"some topics that we touched on"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2585.525,"endTime":2587.7450000000003,"body":"through many of the questions."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2587.9750000000004,"endTime":2591.405,"body":"I want to take a second to thank"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2587.9750000000004,"endTime":2591.405,"body":"Pam for her time to go through"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2591.405,"endTime":2594.105,"body":"all these questions where we"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2591.405,"endTime":2594.105,"body":"just pepper her with all sorts"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2594.105,"endTime":2597.2250000000004,"body":"of different questions about"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2594.105,"endTime":2597.2250000000004,"body":"careers and where we can go."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2597.505,"endTime":2599.5350000000003,"body":"And Pam, thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2599.755,"endTime":2601.0550000000003,"body":"Everyone really"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2599.755,"endTime":2601.0550000000003,"body":"appreciates your time."},{"speaker":"Pam Butkowski","startTime":2601.255,"endTime":2602.1650000000004,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2603.9950000000003,"endTime":2605.505,"body":"I hope you"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2603.9950000000003,"endTime":2605.505,"body":"enjoyed our Member Event on"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2605.505,"endTime":2606.655,"body":"career planning with Pam."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2607.065,"endTime":2609.7050000000004,"body":"She has a lot more knowledge"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2607.065,"endTime":2609.7050000000004,"body":"and insight to share with you."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2609.945,"endTime":2612.335,"body":"So come chat with us in the"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2609.945,"endTime":2612.335,"body":"Slack channel, along with"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2612.335,"endTime":2614.5350000000003,"body":"our entire community of"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2612.335,"endTime":2614.5350000000003,"body":"digital project managers."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2614.9350000000004,"endTime":2617.155,"body":"You can learn more about"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2614.9350000000004,"endTime":2617.155,"body":"membership on our website at"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2617.275,"endTime":2619.9750000000004,"body":"thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership."},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2620.545,"endTime":2622.3250000000003,"body":"Until next time,"},{"speaker":"Michael Mordak","startTime":2620.545,"endTime":2622.3250000000003,"body":"thanks for listening."}]}