In a world that's increasingly governed by complex projects and collaborative efforts, the question arises: why isn't project management being taught in grade schools?
Galen Low is joined by Mark Burnett, CEO of Reasoning With Mark, to introduce a revolutionary idea: integrating project management skills into grade school curricula.
In a world that's increasingly governed by complex projects and collaborative efforts, the question arises: why isn't project management being taught in grade schools?
Galen Low is joined by Mark Burnett, CEO of Reasoning With Mark, to introduce a revolutionary idea: integrating project management skills into grade school curricula.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in. My name is Galen Low with the Digital Project Manager. We are a community of digital professionals on a mission to help each other get skilled, get confident, and get connected so that we can amplify the value of project management in a digital world. If you wanna hear more about that, head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership. All right, today we're doing something a bit different. We're going to be imagining a world where project management is taught to kids when they're in grade school, so that we can explore what the benefits could be, as well as some of the obstacles and, like, the not-so-wonderful consequences that may come along with it. Joining me today is Mark Burnett, CEO and founder of the Professional and Personal Development Academy, Reasoning with Mark. Mark, thanks for being here today.
Mark Burnett:Thank you so much, Galen. You guys are doing an amazing job with the DPM community. It's a pleasure for me to be here, and I'm just excited and looking forward to this conversation.
Galen Low:It's been great having you in the community. Just for our listeners, we kind of spun up a conversation about this podcast episode. We're like, Hey, Mark's here. We're talking about, you know, teaching kids project management in grade school. What do y'all think? And we got some really juicy opinions. We got some really good thoughts. We got some really good questions and we worked them into the conversation today. So I'm super excited to dive in.
Mark Burnett:I am excited as well. And yeah, really looking forward to it. And as you said, we got some juicy feedback the other day from the community as well.
Galen Low:Absolutely. And you and I actually, we've been talking about, well, project management stuff for a little while now. And, yes, this thing is something that just keeps coming up over and over again, this notion that, you know, project management is a bit of a universal skill for modern work, but also it's something for, you know, personal growth and just life in general. So, I thought I'd do something different. I thought I'd just lead with a juicy question and ask you, just outside of your work life, how has your skill in managing projects helped you?
Mark Burnett:Yeah, so Galen, you guys called me the CEO for a reason with Mark and what that really means is that just I was born and raised in Kingston, Jamaica. And so, I mean, from an early age, you know, I realized that I didn't know what the name was. But I just realized that there are some social skills that are relatable to life and just the things that you do every day, you know, like the collaboration, like talking to people, like working as a team, you know, just the way you communicate and just be kind, just having patience, things like this, you know, why I didn't know what this was called. And so here just coming up, we generally hear about, you know, you should become a lawyer, doctor and engineer. So yeah, and fast forward, I became an engineer and then I became an accidental project manager. And then I actually realized, Oh, you know, this is what I really like. This was my DNA. And this is something that comes naturally to me. So I now realize that there are a lot of youth who probably it's the same thing, you know? And so I just think, instead of saying just project managers, professional project managers, I think we're all social project managers because we have some life skills there that are relatable to the everyday thing that we do in life that will help us and help others.
Galen Low:You were telling me in the green room about a personal experience of yours. You went through some trauma. And we were talking about how that relates to project management. I wasn't sure if we could get into it here, but would you be willing to share?
Mark Burnett:Sure. Sure. So I would say Galen, the highlight of my life, I will not use the word career, you know, but I would say the highlight of my life so far, you know, was when I defied the medical recommendation to amputate my arm, you know. And to get through that, I would say terrible, complex and it was not a nice feeling, you know. To overcome that, I had to use art. And I would say the science of project management to do that. You know, I wasn't using a project charter, I was using a business case, but, you know, what I was using was just the awareness for project management, you know, just dealing with people, you know, the people poor, you know, just the way you show up each day, even though you're feeling pain in the hospital. Just the smile on your face, just keeping that optimistic mindset with the doctors. And that kind of energy also generate like this winning culture between myself and the doctors. And so every day they just find different solutions. And it was just trial and error and just experimenting in an agile and adaptive way. There were times where we had financial challenges too. Well, what I didn't realize was that for the doctors, this was a use case to help some of them in their careers, to elevate their careers as well. So the money wasn't even an issue. It was just all about applying this life skill and you know, the impact it has on teamwork and on people. And we're just growing together. It's like we're co-collaborating and we're co-creating and we're helping each other in the same space.
Galen Low:I love that, a) because of that social thing that you said, right? Like, when, I've been thinking about this a lot, and after you mentioned it to me, I was like, okay, you know, is this a project? And you're right, right? It's not like there is necessarily, you know, a RACI chart, a Gantt chart, or, you know, all these artifacts that make it, you know, feel project management-y. But fundamentally, it's a group of people working together to do something that would be difficult to do alone. And sometimes, especially in your case, to get something done and achieve an outcome that was not really that probable. Like, you were saying, like, you were a candidate for amputation, and actually the project was to, How can we help Mark keep his arm? Which is a very discreet and clear goal, but also like complex, right? It already had the recommendation. How are we going to persevere together? How are we going to collaborate together? How are we going to sort of map out the stages? And when there is some financial or other constraint happening, time, you know, what is available medically for you, that all has to get sort of mapped out, planned, communicated, and executed. And even just like your recovery, right? Just recovering, you know, getting back on your feet. Like that's where that sort of project management, like focus towards a goal, you know, break it down into pieces. You know, it's not just you're here in the hospital and then the next day you're out, it's a journey and that has to be sort of mapped out and appreciated as an endeavor, as something that's going to be difficult. I really love that.
Mark Burnett:Yeah. That's a powerful point that you made there, Galen, because a lot of times, even one of the reasons why it's so important to teach, you know, or to come up with some kind of, I don't know if it's a formal curriculum, you know, which is a collaboration between industry experts and the teaching professionals and teaching experts. You know, why I think it's so important to introduce project management to our next generation are in grade school is, you know, life is a journey. You know, everything that we do in life is a journey. We will have our ups and downs. And a lot of times you realize why some persons, I mean, might not make it through. It's because they don't have that social awareness about themselves, the skills that they have, and just the social awareness about the challenges of life. You know, just that even awareness about people getting to know people that possibly can help them. You know, they don't even realize that they can have persons who they could consider their sponsor, like a very close friend. You understand what I mean? And even though you, there are situations, maybe you're not able to get that dream career job that you need, but then in the interim, you have some skills that you could use to earn that will create a profile that will still get you on the way to that dream job, you know? So I would say this is the reason why, because you're pretty much bringing across the awareness to project management. And also helping them to understand that this awareness is really about the journey as well, you know, just to reflect and be cognizant on this journey.
Galen Low:I want to dig into that awareness piece because I think it's a good segue. I mean, we've started off kind of with an assumption, which is that, you know, project management is not being taught to kids in grade school. But in that conversation in our community, you know, one could argue that we are already teaching an age appropriate level of project management to kids, you know, as it stands through things like group projects and presentations. So I guess the question is understanding that like what's missing from something like just doing a group assignment or like you know you got to build a strong bridge out of popsicle sticks like and then like present it to the class like what's missing from that could help increase that awareness of the skills that kids are building at that age?
Mark Burnett:I just think the ability to just bring up across how important this specialization, if you want to call it that, or this transferable skill is to making an impact on the world. Because I can give you an example of a personal experience skill, because in my early years, you know, when you hear, okay, I think you should pursue a career in engineering. At that age, someone could prove to you the impact that you will have on society, like solving problems and so forth. And so you had that drive at an early age to become an engineer. So I think it's the same thing with project management. And then even to add to this, we're now seeing where we have the, I mean, STEAM and STEM activities are being introduced in our school curriculum. So why not project management, something around project management? You know, at the Project Management Institute, there is also an arm that's called a PNIES. And they have some structured, you know, artifacts and some materials there that can be used, you know, I mean, to drive this awareness in project management as well, you know. So I just think it's that as is to bring across that awareness to the specialization or to the, this transferable skill to say that, Hey this is something that will help you to make an impact on the world. Just the same like engineering, becoming a lawyer or some other profession.
Galen Low:I love that. I like the awareness side of things because, you know, if I'm picking it where you're putting down, sometimes we're teaching these skills, we're not necessarily giving them all a name or putting them under an umbrella of project management. And in a lot of ways, we're framing them as, you know, survival skills, life skills, right? Things that you're going to need later on in life. But sometimes we miss a trick by not also showing kids that this is a career. Like, you know, just like you mentioned, right? Yes, you want to become a doctor or a lawyer, you can also become a project manager and you can use these skills to have an impact on the world, just like an architect, or, you know, a paleontologist, or all of these other careers that are very, you know, front and center, right? When you're in grade school, you're like, what do you want to be? Okay, yeah, there's like, there's six jobs that people want to be, and some hybrids in between. There aren't that many kids who are going to be like, yes, I'd like to be a project manager. But if they could be more aware of that, like that they could be, and what that means, then it's both. It's a life skill, right? Being able to collaborate, being able to communicate, being able to, you know, have an organized plan, build a bridge out of popsicles and test it and making sure it's okay, that meets quality, but also that could be your job. Like, that could be a career path later on as well.
Mark Burnett:Yes, definitely. And if we, I mean, just extend a little bit further on, you know, bringing across this impact, Galen. So, I mean, look at the world now. I mean, we're living in a very dynamic, I would say the world is very dynamic and it can be volatile at times. And so when you look at skills like leadership, you know, emotional intelligence empathy, you know, building relationships, and co-creating, you're looking at co-creation, you're looking at collaboration and you're looking at partnerships, you know? And so I believe to develop these skills, it all starts from the mindset and what better way to do that, but to introduce this transferable life skill project management into our grade schools.
Galen Low:I like that. And actually, I like what you mentioned earlier about like STEM and STEAM, right, and I know that kind of is applicable for, you know, a lot of a young person's life. But I'm more familiar with it as like developmental, almost before school kind of stuff and like early school. And then, you know, like when you're thinking about project management as a career, usually, you know, that's fast forward, you know, that you're in like college or beyond, you know, it's usually after school when you're considering or learning about project management as a career. And there's kind of this gap in the middle, right? Like this awareness piece that you're mentioning where we're like, okay, let's arm you with all these skills that have a name that are very deliberate and intentional. And then at least for, I think probably for the kids, it then kind of gets lost in the middle of it where it's like, okay, I'm in school now I'm learning all this stuff, but you know, I don't know that what I'm learning is, yeah, partly project management. And then it kind of resurfaces later on, there's almost this like gap in the middle of the journey.
Mark Burnett:Yes, I think it's something that we need to just look at, and I think again, it will be a collaborative effort again, you know, from the teaching experts, professionals, and the industry experts in project management. And these wonderful organizations that we have, like the PMI, the Digital Project Management community, you know, again, it's going to be a collaborative effort to see how is it that we can introduce this thing in a relatable and a digestible way to the next generation. You understand? And it's very necessary because in life, there will always be challenges and the way you overcome these challenges will define the kind of individual that you are. And I believe project management can just help us as the kids, you know, and us as human beings to develop that kind of resilient and civil mindset that will help us to make an impact day in day out.
Galen Low:I want to circle back to that, right? Like the impact of what this could do. But I wanted to look at the middle as well. Like project management is not like the most interesting thing to all people. I know that might be a surprise to some of our listeners, but you know, a lot of people think project management is very boring. And I can imagine that would be like, you know, 10x true for like, you know, a group of students in like the fourth grade. And they're like, Hey kids, we're going to learn project management. Like, how do we make it interesting for elementary school kids? How do we make it something that is like age appropriate, like, you know, are we going to be getting in there? Is what you're proposing to like, say, okay, yeah, everyone, you know, you're in the fourth grade and we're going to create a risk register or is it more abstract than that? How do you make it interesting and also useful while still like balancing that awareness of the fact that what they're doing is project management?
Mark Burnett:Yeah. So age appropriate, I would say there is no one size fits all. And again, the collaboration will also determine this. But from my experience, you know, in a different fast mentorship coaching programs, first, when you look at the kids and it depends on the culture. Also, it depends on the environment. We can think about gamification, because even right now, when you look at STEAM and STEM, you see a lot of kids, they are using like building blocks. So we can figure out a way or we can utilize some of those techniques and principles. And then also what we could do, like in a lot of schools, we have what you call like career day, right? And so I've never seen here in Jamaica, and I've been to a couple of career days, never seen a kid who is dressed like a project manager. Can you believe that?
Galen Low:I'm wondering what the costume would be.
Mark Burnett:Yeah. So, I mean, every situation is different, but I mean, there are many ways I believe we could approach this to make whatever we're trying to bring across transferable and digestible by the kids. So as I say, like here in Jamaica, we're big on career day. But I've never seen a kid dressed like a project manager. And we have a lot of STEAM and STEM activities. Maybe we could have like collaboration with those organizations, you know, or those activities as project management professionals, you know, and see how we could incorporate project management in those STEAM or STEM activities to show them how project management bring all those pieces of the puzzle together. You understand what I mean? Because when you're building something, it's really project management. Project management is what really allows you to achieve that outcome. So just collaboration in some of those activities as well. And like even collaborations on some of these organizations will allow us to bring this across to this kid. And I say gamification, the kids are big on games. You know, and I say you could make it like comedic too. You could write books, you know, with a lot of cartoon characters and stuff like this, you know? So there are a myriad of ways, Galen.
Galen Low:You know, it's funny because as I'm thinking about this, I know I asked the question, but as I'm thinking about it, I'm like, actually, as working adults, a lot of us are kind of figuring it out this way as well. Like if you think about it, you know, like take something like Kanban, right? It's like, okay, let's like take a bunch of colored post it notes and write down what we need to do and organize it and then move it from left to right. Like we're making these little fun games for ourselves to give ourselves this structure, this framework so that we can collaborate, right? You know, or I was thinking the other day about Lego has that, like Lego serious play, like there's these kits to help, you know, working teams figure out how to work better together. And just using that as a framework to, you know, organize, communicate, and like collaborate, but also think a bit outside the box. So in a way, like you're looking at these things that are somewhat delayed, right? Like we could actually be teaching that and like in the same way, you know, you mentioned building blocks earlier, right? Like what are the building blocks of project management? We don't have to say Kanban, we don't have to say Scrum Agile, but what are the activities and the like patterns of thought that help us get organized as a team? And are they things that we need to learn, you know, once you're out there, like, in a high stress working environment? Or are some of the things that we're doing now, with adults, things that kids could be doing, and it would be fun, right? I mean, I'd write on a bunch of sticky notes as a fourth grader, and like, you know, build a bridge, what have we gotta do? Okay, we gotta do these things, who's gonna do them? Like, what might go wrong? Like, actually, it is kind of fun and gamified in a way. I'm probably biased because, like, I do think project management is exciting, but there are a lot of things that are not risk registers and Gantt charts and project charters and all that stuff that most people outside of project management and sometimes inside of project management would, like, roll their eyes at. There's still like lots of fun collaboration and planning and doing, and, you know, feeling that gratification, like you mentioned about like the impact is that's what will make someone dress up like a project manager on career day, right?
Mark Burnett:Yeah, definitely. And I will share something with you as well, Galen. I've seen a case, and this is a personal experience with a stay at home mom of four boys. Every day she will call me and she will say, Hey, I didn't even realize before, but since we've met, I'm actually using project management to get these boys in order. And I'm actually showing them how to do things, not using those sophisticated project management terms or in terms of the old organization that is required on a daily basis to get them off the school or to get them ready for different aspects of their life, you know? And so she told me that she has realized that it's making an impact on them as well, even the way how they deport themself. You know, without even using the sophisticated terms, as you said, like a Kanban or you're in a planning phase or initiation phase, but those social skills, you know, those problem solving skills, you know, those collaborative skills. Even she told me that the boys, they have savings account, you know, and they are into investment, you know. There was a situation where I come across the oldest one and I said to him that I needed some money to borrow. And he was discussing with me, like, what is the return on the investments and stuff like that? And he was talking project management with me, you ROI, you know, return on investment. And she was talking about, so I was, all the terms and conditions, I mean, they weren't on a piece of paper, but he was just articulating that.
Galen Low:I love that. And I think that's the thing, right? You can learn the fancy names for things when you're, like, in the working world and you need that shared language, but, you know, in terms of, like, age appropriateness, yeah, I mean, I don't expect all the kids on the playground to be, you know, like, making a Gantt chart in the sandbox and calling it a Gantt. But you know, like just that awareness, right, like you mentioned. Even I was thinking about when you applied to write the exam, the PMP exam with the Project Management Institute, you know, a lot of people get hung up on the experience and like the hours of experience you have in projects. And yes, that is, it's tough to accrue, but when I really like break down what the questions are, it kind of is, you know, proving or eliciting this awareness of when you've been involved in a project and what stage you were involved in. And sure, yeah, like maybe, you know, packing up and moving across the country might not count to PMI as like project experience, but you can really use that as a lens to be like, Oh yeah, like I've been in that stage, you know. I've been in initiation where we have to like, you know, come up with a concept, set goals, you know. I've been in planning when we have to like figure out a plan to do things like that awareness of, you know, what happens in each stage and what makes a project, know, actually is something that we could make kids aware of, like more foundationally, like in our education system.
Mark Burnett:That's true. That's true Galen. And to add to that, I will say, because you did ask the question earlier that, how are we going to deploy this so that it is effective and it makes a difference. And so we could even scale the awareness too. So, you know, elementary school, secondary school, pre-university, university. And so we could scale the awareness in that order. And why I say this it's also from a personal experience too. Over a decade ago, when I became PMP certified, I was invited, I think it was a, they handpicked, I would say maybe 300 persons globally. And I was fortunate to be a part of that where the PMI, they were trying to build out this, I think it was a game, but they were using like avatars, you know. And this was a way to pretty much bring across project management, well, not to bring across project management, but persons who are PMP certified without experience, this is a way how to empower their confidence and also to allow them to appreciate project management a little bit more, even without that practical work experience, you understand? And so the avatar could do everything like travel from one country to the next, you know, having a drink with a stakeholder, stuff like this. And I was fortunate enough to be a part of that.
Galen Low:That sounds really cool. I love that notion of like, you know, gamification often, you know, my mind will go to like competition and scoring and things like that, but like literally making it a game, right, to kind of build practical experience, you know, the sort of simulation level, right, kind of project management. I think that's super interesting.
Mark Burnett:So that is how we scale the awareness, you know, kids at a certain age, they use a particular game, you know, and we could do it like this.
Galen Low:You know, I'm going to use that opportunity to switch into, you know, some of the tough stuff. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate a little bit. We've been talking about, you know, yes, this should happen. Kids would benefit greatly from it. But I just want to look at the other side of the coin a little bit. We're talking about scaling and we're talking about different stages of education and how project management can be woven into that. But like, if we teach kids project management in school at that level, like, would this not essentially like decimate the profession of project management? Like right now we are specialists, right? We're on par with something like, you know, being an accountant or being an architect where it's a very specialized skill. Not everyone can be an architect. Not everyone can be an accountant. Not everyone can be a project manager. But if we're teaching it all in school, then doesn't that make it more of a general skill, like writing or math? Does it kind of flatten it out? And if so, is that good or bad?
Mark Burnett:You know, again, I would say there's no one size fit all and different strokes for different folks. But I will say it's just the way how we package and deliver the knowledge. I'll give you an example. So, you know, I'm a professional engineer as well. A lot of person don't know this, right? And when I started out, I was never doing engineering courses, but in primary school, I was introduced to science, just general science. And then when I went to secondary school, I was introduced to integrated science, I believe between seven and the ninth grade, right? And then after that was when I started to specialize in the physics, the chemistry, you know, I didn't do biology. So I'm saying that it's the same thing for project management. You know, you're not introducing them to any Kanban boards, any project charters, any methodology. But what you're introducing them to is the DNA and the mindset to solve problems and to interact with people, that people skill, which is a super poor. I mean, we can't live life without interacting with people and the know how to go about our daily life, you know, and project management really does that for all of us. You understand? And even if you look at it, you have kids that are in the formal school systems, you know, and you have kids that are out of the formal school system. But when you listen to all that appearance as to why they send their kids to the school system, it's because of the interaction. We can teach them all the things and they will get good grades at home, but why do you send them to the formal system? It's because of the interaction, that complex aspect of life, you know, teach them all to interact and to collaborate and to work as a team. You understand?
Galen Low:I like that. And actually tying it back to like the STEM and STEAM stuff, right, like the E is for engineering and like, it doesn't mean that everyone becomes an engineer. But to your point, it also doesn't mean that everyone's aware of like engineering and doesn't need to like walk this path of engineering in school, but it's just like this like increased awareness and, you know, more formal concepts around it. And then you get to the point in your educational career where, you know, you are choosing a path.
Mark Burnett:Exactly.
Galen Low:I see what you're saying now. What would the acronym be? Could it be like STEAM PM? Could it be STEAPM? Right? Like, how do we jet projects into there?
Mark Burnett:Yes, because I did something very recently, Galen. So, what I realized, you know, I saw how I became a PMP certified professional, you know, I had to have the 35 hours and I had to have the years of practical experience, right? And so when I became an authorized arm training provider, I've seen cases where I've helped someone who doesn't have 35 hours or any practical experience in project management to appreciate project management through other Agile courses. You understand? And the feedback is, wow, I'm doing this every day, but I didn't realize that I was doing a good job or I didn't realize that I actually have a skill. Okay, I can actually go to an interview and I actually can articulate the value that I'm bringing to the table. You understand what I mean? And they don't have 35 hours and they don't have 500 hours of practical experience. You understand? But I found an ingenious way how to bring that information across and allow them to pass an exam that will allow them to say that they are internationally accredited. And they also appreciate the craft. You understand?
Galen Low:Yeah, it's like as a project manager, at least, especially in my career, like I went through life and then arrived at this foreign concept called project management that was new and full of all these words I didn't understand. And I was like, okay, this is pretty dense. It's a new thing. Luckily, I had already accidentally fallen into a project management role, so I like had experience, but like, you know, that opaqueness of hitting it later on when you're like, oh, this is new and I need to understand what project management is so that I can be, you know, good at it and get confident at it. And if I'm picking at what you're putting down, you're saying, actually, if people were more aware that what they do when they collaborate with other humans, or when they're trying to achieve a goal, you know, through a plan is project management, then not as many people would feel so unconfident as they're prepping for that exam or prepping for, you know, that job interview to land a project manager role. There are a lot of people who are like, yeah, I don't know if I can do this. Like, you know, like there's lots of scary words and concepts that I might get asked about. But at the end of the day, if you can relate it back to some of your, you know, personal, just life project experience, then the rest kind of, you know, comes a little bit more easily.
Mark Burnett:I believe so. And even looking at how the teaching curriculum is built, Galen, that's project management. And even to look at how this curriculum is delivered, it's project management, preparing the kids to do their exams, that's project management.
Galen Low:I wanted to kind of just sneak this in here. This idea that, okay, we add it to the curriculum, but obviously there's going to be some give or take in terms of what you can cram into a curriculum and what teachers can teach. And I'm thinking about this idea that like, you know, not across the board, but there's a lot of schools out there teaching programming. You know, or like game development, like in, I got mostly more of a high school setting, I would say there is sort of early coding in elementary school. But, you know, given this, if you had to pit them against one another and you said, okay, we can only teach one thing in the curriculum. We could teach project management or we could teach coding, like, which would you pick and why is it project management?
Mark Burnett:I would say Galen, what I would do is I would integrate the knowledge, you know? So say, for example, you say, if I'm teaching the coding, I will just demonstrate the different skills from mapping out what is it that we're trying to achieve. We start the coding and what we achieve after completing the coding and then the value that it delivers.
Galen Low:Smart answer. Weave it in. And I think that's true. I mean, like, what you've been saying throughout is that, you know, these are essential collaboration skills, social skills, teamwork skills, you know, organization and planning skills, you know, you might not need to sit down and, like, have, you know, project management class instead of gym class. You might just be able to work it in.
Mark Burnett:Exactly. Because look at the kids, Galen, I could remember my earlier days, right? We did a lot of physical education. So we had like two sessions per week for physical education. So why not weave project management into physical education, or have at least one session or half a session for project management. Because you're not necessarily teaching a framework like the PMI or the ScrumBOK. You're just pretty much bringing across this life skill just the same way how you're bringing across the physical education. Or as you said, there are a lot of programs who are teaching the coding or the STEAM or the STEM. You know, so it's pretty much the same thing. So I believe, Galen, anything with value, once we're able to identify the value, there is always a way to fit it in our schedules.
Galen Low:Love that. Just to round things out, I thought maybe, you know, we've been imagining and discussing a world where project management is taught at a younger age in grade school, but what if we done paint that into the future? So these kids, they learn project management in school. They grow up. What's different about the workforce that grows up with project management than the workforce that we have right now? And why is it important that project management gets taught to this generation and the next generations versus you know, we've been getting by kind of just fine, like what's better about it?
Mark Burnett:Well, this is a great question, Galen. This is a great question. So, wow. I mean, first I just want to commend the project management community, the Project Management Institute, and there are other communities out there who are doing an amazing job through partnerships and collaborations and even as professionals, I think we're doing a great job. And we have come a far way, but if I should use, say, my personal experience, you know, just growing up, I didn't know anything about project management, but I did become an accidental project manager, you know, and that's when I was introduced to project management. And then I started to do the certification and formal training, right? So what I realize is like the generation now, it's like we're working in reverse. So say for example, if project management was introduced at an early age, I think in some way there would be more advocates in the community. Maybe our culture in the global project management community would have been a little bit more mature. So maybe you would have been making a little bit more impact on the businesses and in terms of like technology evolution. In terms of that collaboration and alignment, I would say we probably a little bit more progress in that regards. But I would say like right now I could see that we're kind of like working in reverse. And let me give you an example. So when I started my career, I think I was always working in an Agile way and that was in the late 90's. You know, I was always working in an Agile way. And then I believe some years after the Agile methodology was introduced, you know, I think the PMI had the traditional way of doing things, you know, and then we had the Agile. And then I think the curriculum for the PMI has been updated now with some Agile matters, you know. So what I'm saying is that if say, for example, I was introduced to project management at an early stage, even some of my projects, I would be a little bit more confident to drive the changes that I think we needed at the time, you know. So it's like I was just working in an unconscious and unofficial way as a project manager. That's what I would say.
Galen Low:I like that. Things that stand out to me are, you know, the working in reverse and the confidence thing, right? Working in reverse, we're we're educating professionals on something that they were probably already doing, but, you know, hadn't been something that they had been formally trained on. Like, especially us accidental PMs that just had to kind of figure it out, we were relying on skills that we learned earlier in life, but we were cobbling it all together. And just kind of making it up as we went along, turns out what we were making up wasn't wrong, right? Like, you know, we were working in, like, Agile iterations before we even knew what Agile was. You know, in some ways these things, you know, do come naturally and could come more naturally if it was something that we were, you know, more aware of. But I like the confidence piece because that really resonates with me because so many people I talk to are so intimidated by project management. Sometimes to the point where they're really actually quite turned off by the notion of project management, because they're like, I don't know, it's very opaque. It seems really complicated. It doesn't seem that necessary. I'm kind of getting by like doing work on my own over here and I'm going to go into a job interview and they're going to ask me about all these acronyms and, you know, like, I don't know, like maybe it's not for me or I'm really stressed out about this exam because, you know, I don't know if I know project management as well as I ought to. And that's such a stumbling block. And, you know, coming back to the, like the job economy question. Sure. It probably means like right now the system is almost built so that like if you get scared off about project management, then maybe that's good because it's, you know, it makes the community of project managers and the professionals, it's just a smaller group, right? Not everyone's a project manager. That's okay. But on the flip side of that, it's like, yeah, what could happen? You talk about impact, right? What would happen if everybody felt a little bit more confident and everybody who wanted to, you know, drive impact by leading projects was willing to step up to the plate and wasn't getting scared off like we could actually probably be doing a lot of good in the world. Whereas, you know, instead what happens and not in a bad way, but you know, like the reality is a lot of projects are getting run by people who aren't project managers who don't think of themselves as project managers. They're just being asked to do a thing and they're like, okay, I'll figure it out. Those are like the informal accidental project managers that don't even know that they're project managers yet. But if they did know that what they were doing was project management, and if they were more open and more aware of like what the craft entails, and that they wouldn't have to figure this out by themselves. And also that the foundation has already been laid. It's not like they're working in reverse and have to then go back and learn a thing that they're already doing. Then actually, there'd probably be more projects being run in an organized way, but more importantly, with people who feel confident about doing it. And that could take us a lot further. And that's something that I think is really interesting.
Mark Burnett:Yeah. I totally agree Galen. And just to top that off, like even now we have a big conversation. Right now there's a big conversation around AI and digital transformation. Right? And a lot of persons, they might feel that, Hey, you know, I'm not relevant anymore in the job market because of the role AI is playing in digital transformation. So, as I said before, I mean, both sides of the fence, there is the pros and the cons, right? So, for those who were introduced to project management at an early age, you find out that they would have mastered the superpower, that people power, that human power, that soul power, you know, that connection with people, building relationship, you know, working with a team, you know, understanding that the power and the strength is in our team and it's in the community. You understand? And so the technology is just an enabler versus those who would have just become accidental project managers and doing things on the fly and being introduced to all these different things that we come across on a daily basis, you know. And so some of us who have lost our jobs, it's like there is some kind of panic, you know, because we were more focusing on the domain instead of focusing on the people aspect of the craft, which is the art and the science. Because I think the art and the science of project management is really around the value that you bring to the universe, to life and how you interact with people, you know. And even right now with the PMI, you're seeing where the PMI is doing a job where it's now offering a lot of free courses to members like the Gen AI course, bringing that kind of awareness. These courses are great courses, but they are no free. You understand what I mean? To bring that awareness, you know, and even you're seeing a lot of companies and businesses now who think that, you know, if you're a PMP certified, you will be coming with a little bit more value because they are also members and they're seeing these free courses being distributed across the world to thousands of professionals. You know, and they know have this confidence that, okay, we are fully aligned. The society is fully aligned. The ecosystem is fully aligned, you know, and that's one of the, I would say the value that, you know, this early introduction of project management will bring is that it will align the ecosystem, which is the people and the value to be distributed in the different value streams.
Galen Low:By the way, I'm stealing the soul power thing. The superpower of project managers is actually around people, not necessarily, you know, some of the more AI reproducible skills that are coming to bear. Love that. Mark, thanks so much for hanging out with me today. This has been so much fun. I love this exercise. I'm interested to know what other people think, but for now, let's leave it there. I know you and I, we can talk for hours. I'll have you back on the show. This has been really great.
Mark Burnett:Yeah, this is also, I really enjoyed our conversation and I just hope the community will enjoy it as well.
Galen Low:I'm sure they will. Alright folks, there you have it. As always, if you'd like to join the conversation with over a thousand like minded project management champions, come join our collective! Head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership to learn more. And if you like what you heard today, please subscribe and stay in touch on thedigitalprojectmanager.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.