{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":27.270000000000003,"endTime":28.44,"body":"Hey folks,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":27.270000000000003,"endTime":28.44,"body":"thanks for tuning in."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":28.44,"endTime":30.810000000000002,"body":"My name is Galen Low with"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":28.44,"endTime":30.810000000000002,"body":"the Digital Project Manager."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":30.989,"endTime":33.45,"body":"We are a community of digital"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":30.989,"endTime":33.45,"body":"professionals on a mission"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":33.45,"endTime":35.46,"body":"to help each other get"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":33.45,"endTime":35.46,"body":"skilled, get confident, and"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":35.46,"endTime":38.31,"body":"get connected so that we can"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":35.46,"endTime":38.31,"body":"amplify the value of project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":38.31,"endTime":39.78,"body":"management in a digital world."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":40.05,"endTime":42.150000000000006,"body":"If you want to hear more"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":40.05,"endTime":42.150000000000006,"body":"about that, head on over to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":42.150000000000006,"endTime":45.010000000000005,"body":"thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":46.17,"endTime":49.769999999999996,"body":"Today we are talking about"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":46.17,"endTime":49.769999999999996,"body":"the plight of accidental and"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":49.769999999999996,"endTime":53.309,"body":"deputized project managers"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":49.769999999999996,"endTime":53.309,"body":"working in an agency context"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":53.55,"endTime":55.76,"body":"— you know the ones — they're"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":53.55,"endTime":55.76,"body":"the folks who got swept up into"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":55.84,"endTime":58.43,"body":"leading a project with minimal"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":55.84,"endTime":58.43,"body":"training, zero experience,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":58.589,"endTime":59.76,"body":"and limited authority."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":59.97,"endTime":61.92,"body":"And the question that we're"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":59.97,"endTime":61.92,"body":"asking ourselves today"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.809,"body":"is, how can we, as project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.809,"body":"leaders, managers, and agency"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":65.809,"endTime":69.25,"body":"operators, identify the right"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":65.809,"endTime":69.25,"body":"people to take on a project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":69.25,"endTime":72.279,"body":"manager role, and how can"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":69.25,"endTime":72.279,"body":"we better set them up for"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":72.28,"endTime":75.82,"body":"success so that our people"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":72.28,"endTime":75.82,"body":"and our agencies all benefit?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":76.16499999999999,"endTime":78.815,"body":"Joining me today in the studio"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":76.16499999999999,"endTime":78.815,"body":"is renowned agency expert,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":78.894,"endTime":82.924,"body":"author, and founder of Sakas"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":78.894,"endTime":82.924,"body":"\u0026 Company agency consultancy, Mr."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":82.924,"endTime":84.13499999999999,"body":"Karl Sakas himself."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":84.13499999999999,"endTime":85.875,"body":"Karl, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":84.13499999999999,"endTime":85.875,"body":"for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":86.224,"endTime":87.405,"body":"Galen,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":86.224,"endTime":87.405,"body":"great to be here."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":87.405,"endTime":88.595,"body":"Looking forward"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":87.405,"endTime":88.595,"body":"to helping people."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":88.735,"endTime":89.345,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":89.365,"endTime":90.845,"body":"And honestly, I"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":89.365,"endTime":90.845,"body":"love what you do."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":90.865,"endTime":92.355,"body":"I love how you help agencies."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":92.494,"endTime":94.705,"body":"I love that you've dug"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":92.494,"endTime":94.705,"body":"into the sort of project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":94.705,"endTime":96.019,"body":"management bit as well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":96.24,"endTime":99.369,"body":"And not to fanboy too much"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":96.24,"endTime":99.369,"body":"about it, but you're a name that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":99.369,"endTime":101.83,"body":"I've been wanting to have on"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":99.369,"endTime":101.83,"body":"this podcast for a long time."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":101.99,"endTime":104.899,"body":"I know you were on before with"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":101.99,"endTime":104.899,"body":"Ben, but under my watch, you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":104.899,"endTime":107.27,"body":"and I haven't had a conversation"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":104.899,"endTime":107.27,"body":"that we've put to tape."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":107.449,"endTime":108.91,"body":"So I'm super excited to dive in."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":109.089,"endTime":109.77,"body":"Great to be here."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":109.989,"endTime":110.359,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":110.52,"endTime":113.369,"body":"I thought maybe what I'd do"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":110.52,"endTime":113.369,"body":"is just start off with one big"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":113.369,"endTime":114.509,"body":"question to get us rolling."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":114.69,"endTime":117.165,"body":"And the question is this;"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":114.69,"endTime":117.165,"body":"what is the biggest benefit"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":117.255,"endTime":121.08500000000001,"body":"of an agency appointing or"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":117.255,"endTime":121.08500000000001,"body":"deputizing or maybe permanently"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":121.08500000000001,"endTime":125.305,"body":"promoting a non-PM employee"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":121.08500000000001,"endTime":125.305,"body":"into a PM role instead of"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":125.305,"endTime":127.015,"body":"hiring an experienced PM?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":127.265,"endTime":129.255,"body":"And also the flip side of"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":127.265,"endTime":129.255,"body":"that, what is the biggest risk?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":129.595,"endTime":131.565,"body":"Let's start"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":129.595,"endTime":131.565,"body":"by defining the term."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":131.574,"endTime":135.255,"body":"So I coined the idea of a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":131.574,"endTime":135.255,"body":"deputized project manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":135.255,"endTime":137.555,"body":"I've been a full time"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":135.255,"endTime":137.555,"body":"project manager in the past."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":138.025,"endTime":141.555,"body":"A deputized project manager"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":138.025,"endTime":141.555,"body":"is a part time PM who is"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":141.555,"endTime":144.135,"body":"doing that, whether they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":141.555,"endTime":144.135,"body":"want to or not, on top of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":144.135,"endTime":145.255,"body":"their other responsibilities."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":145.445,"endTime":147.575,"body":"They could be a designer"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":145.445,"endTime":147.575,"body":"who's fairly organized"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":147.575,"endTime":150.06400000000002,"body":"and now they're project"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":147.575,"endTime":150.06400000000002,"body":"managing design projects,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":150.215,"endTime":152.065,"body":"developer, writer, or others."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":152.365,"endTime":155.444,"body":"And the reason I called it"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":152.365,"endTime":155.444,"body":"deputized is you imagine like"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":155.445,"endTime":159.405,"body":"the old Western movie where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":155.445,"endTime":159.405,"body":"the mayor picks up the star and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":159.465,"endTime":162.255,"body":"pins it on someone and they're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":159.465,"endTime":162.255,"body":"like, you're in charge now."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":162.475,"endTime":165.254,"body":"They've been deputized"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":162.475,"endTime":165.254,"body":"whether they want it or not."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":165.325,"endTime":166.755,"body":"And now they have to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":165.325,"endTime":166.755,"body":"figure out what to do."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":167.275,"endTime":170.565,"body":"Go out and get the bad guy"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":167.275,"endTime":170.565,"body":"or go out and get the project"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":170.595,"endTime":171.925,"body":"where the retainer shipped."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":172.175,"endTime":173.905,"body":"So that's where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":172.175,"endTime":173.905,"body":"deputize comes from."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":174.135,"endTime":176.525,"body":"And the idea of a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":174.135,"endTime":176.525,"body":"reluctant project manager,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":176.565,"endTime":177.525,"body":"it's a bit different."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":177.525,"endTime":181.065,"body":"Although you can have some of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":177.525,"endTime":181.065,"body":"the same challenges, a reluctant"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":181.065,"endTime":185.194,"body":"PM or reluctant any role is"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":181.065,"endTime":185.194,"body":"someone who can do the job, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":185.194,"endTime":186.585,"body":"they don't want to do the job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":187.005,"endTime":187.825,"body":"They could do it."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":187.825,"endTime":189.075,"body":"It's just not what they want."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":189.215,"endTime":192.475,"body":"In hiring you ideally avoid"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":189.215,"endTime":192.475,"body":"hiring reluctant employees."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":192.475,"endTime":195.224,"body":"I have some articles on that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":192.475,"endTime":195.224,"body":"at the Sakas \u0026 Company website."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":195.514,"endTime":198.37,"body":"With deputized, the assumption"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":195.514,"endTime":198.37,"body":"is maybe they're not always"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":198.39000000000001,"endTime":201.31,"body":"thrilled about it, but they're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":198.39000000000001,"endTime":201.31,"body":"at least willing to try."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":201.69,"endTime":204.79,"body":"In an ideal world, I mean, you'd"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":201.69,"endTime":204.79,"body":"ask what are the pros and cons"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":204.79,"endTime":206.55,"body":"around deputized or reluctant."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":206.71,"endTime":210.09,"body":"Ideally, never hire a reluctant"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":206.71,"endTime":210.09,"body":"employee where they could do"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":210.09,"endTime":211.3,"body":"the job they don't want to."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":211.54,"endTime":213.029,"body":"That tends not to go well."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":213.545,"endTime":216.855,"body":"Sometimes in my client work,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":213.545,"endTime":216.855,"body":"they've hired someone who"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":216.855,"endTime":219.905,"body":"turns out to be a reluctant"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":216.855,"endTime":219.905,"body":"such and such, and we have"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":219.905,"endTime":220.915,"body":"to figure out what to do."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":221.085,"endTime":224.394,"body":"But, on the deputized side,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":221.085,"endTime":224.394,"body":"ideally, you'd have full time"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":224.394,"endTime":228.88400000000001,"body":"project managers, people who"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":224.394,"endTime":228.88400000000001,"body":"are enthusiastic about project"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":228.924,"endTime":232.63400000000001,"body":"management, committed to a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":228.924,"endTime":232.63400000000001,"body":"career in project management."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":232.874,"endTime":234.894,"body":"They're members of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":232.874,"endTime":234.894,"body":"communities like the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":234.894,"endTime":236.154,"body":"Digital Project Manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":236.38400000000001,"endTime":237.964,"body":"They see this as their job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":238.534,"endTime":242.244,"body":"So in an ideal world, you'd"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":238.534,"endTime":242.244,"body":"hire full time PMs, but where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":242.244,"endTime":245.654,"body":"deputized PMs come in, that can"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":242.244,"endTime":245.654,"body":"be when the agency doesn't have"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":245.654,"endTime":247.694,"body":"budget to hire a dedicated PM."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":248.104,"endTime":250.684,"body":"Certainly, PMs are profitable"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":248.104,"endTime":250.684,"body":"when you're billing for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":250.684,"endTime":254.644,"body":"their time, but hiring that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":250.684,"endTime":254.644,"body":"first PM can be a big leap."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":255.104,"endTime":258.884,"body":"So deputized PMs are"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":255.104,"endTime":258.884,"body":"sometimes a stopgap solution."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":259.209,"endTime":262.469,"body":"Or maybe a case where maybe"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":259.209,"endTime":262.469,"body":"there's not enough budget from"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":262.47900000000004,"endTime":266.129,"body":"clients to pay for full scale"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":262.47900000000004,"endTime":266.129,"body":"PM, but someone still needs"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":266.129,"endTime":269.139,"body":"to coordinate it, you deputize"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":266.129,"endTime":269.139,"body":"someone to get the job done."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":269.799,"endTime":272.68899999999996,"body":"I like that framing"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":269.799,"endTime":272.68899999999996,"body":"on reluctant, because I've"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":272.68899999999996,"endTime":273.35900000000004,"body":"seen that happen a lot."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":273.369,"endTime":275.56899999999996,"body":"That use case that you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":273.369,"endTime":275.56899999999996,"body":"mentioned, I've seen it happen"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":275.56899999999996,"endTime":278.97900000000004,"body":"in practice, a designer or a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":275.56899999999996,"endTime":278.97900000000004,"body":"UX researcher is deputized,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":278.97900000000004,"endTime":280.119,"body":"they're given the badge, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":280.119,"endTime":282.049,"body":"You have the con,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":280.119,"endTime":282.049,"body":"manage this project."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":282.409,"endTime":283.97900000000004,"body":"That's kind of it, like the end."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":284.72900000000004,"endTime":286.82899999999995,"body":"And I've seen some folks who"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":284.72900000000004,"endTime":286.82899999999995,"body":"are very excited about that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":286.909,"endTime":289.30899999999997,"body":"They're sort of interested"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":286.909,"endTime":289.30899999999997,"body":"in project management."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":289.34900000000005,"endTime":292.46900000000005,"body":"They are interested in"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":289.34900000000005,"endTime":292.46900000000005,"body":"contributing more in their role."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":292.669,"endTime":295.049,"body":"And it's worked out really"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":292.669,"endTime":295.049,"body":"well for that particular"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":295.049,"endTime":296.31899999999996,"body":"agency or consultancy."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":296.509,"endTime":299.499,"body":"And then the flip side being the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":296.509,"endTime":299.499,"body":"folks who are like, Oh man, like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":299.529,"endTime":302.749,"body":"I don't want to have to be a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":299.529,"endTime":302.749,"body":"project manager and a designer."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":302.95899999999995,"endTime":305.049,"body":"And even though the cost"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":302.95899999999995,"endTime":305.049,"body":"benefit is there for the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":305.049,"endTime":309.369,"body":"agency, it might actually"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":305.049,"endTime":309.369,"body":"deplete the ROI through a lack"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":309.369,"endTime":312.009,"body":"of enthusiasm and interest"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":309.369,"endTime":312.009,"body":"in actually doing the job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":312.19899999999996,"endTime":313.32899999999995,"body":"Lack of enthusiasm."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":313.32899999999995,"endTime":315.399,"body":"And you're also going to see"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":313.32899999999995,"endTime":315.399,"body":"a productivity head due to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":315.399,"endTime":319.389,"body":"switching costs, as people"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":315.399,"endTime":319.389,"body":"switch from being a PM mode"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":319.659,"endTime":323.499,"body":"to being a subject matter"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":319.659,"endTime":323.499,"body":"expert as an SME, things"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":323.499,"endTime":324.68899999999996,"body":"get lost along the way."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":324.84900000000005,"endTime":325.70899999999995,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":325.71900000000005,"endTime":328.05899999999997,"body":"And I mean, even just like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":325.71900000000005,"endTime":328.05899999999997,"body":"the training piece, the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":328.05899999999997,"endTime":330.899,"body":"scenario you described is"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":328.05899999999997,"endTime":330.899,"body":"exactly how I've seen it"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":331.119,"endTime":332.179,"body":"and experienced it, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":332.30899999999997,"endTime":333.179,"body":"Here's the badge."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":333.379,"endTime":334.48900000000003,"body":"Go, make a decision."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":334.93899999999996,"endTime":335.909,"body":"Yup, yup."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":336.09900000000005,"endTime":338.649,"body":"Of course, you want to make"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":336.09900000000005,"endTime":338.649,"body":"sure you're not hiring reluctant"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":338.72900000000004,"endTime":341.409,"body":"PMs in the first place, for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":338.72900000000004,"endTime":341.409,"body":"instance, a friend was at an"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":341.409,"endTime":344.60900000000004,"body":"agency where they hired someone"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":341.409,"endTime":344.60900000000004,"body":"who had been a designer and said"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":344.60900000000004,"endTime":347.399,"body":"they wanted to switch to project"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":344.60900000000004,"endTime":347.399,"body":"management, but the candidate"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":347.399,"endTime":351.83000000000004,"body":"didn't really get into why, and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":347.399,"endTime":351.83000000000004,"body":"they clarified that this isn't a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":351.97900000000004,"endTime":354.139,"body":"design role, this is a PM role."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":354.419,"endTime":357.799,"body":"And apparently she claimed"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":354.419,"endTime":357.799,"body":"that, Oh, yeah, understood."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":357.879,"endTime":360.71900000000005,"body":"And then day one, she was"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":357.879,"endTime":360.71900000000005,"body":"interfering with the designers"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":361.55899999999997,"endTime":363.379,"body":"and they also had to fire her."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":363.619,"endTime":366.34900000000005,"body":"And then apparently she"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":363.619,"endTime":366.34900000000005,"body":"sued the company and they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":366.34900000000005,"endTime":367.409,"body":"had to pay a settlement."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":367.97900000000004,"endTime":369.93899999999996,"body":"They could have avoided"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":367.97900000000004,"endTime":369.93899999999996,"body":"that in the first place."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":369.95899999999995,"endTime":371.769,"body":"I mean, PM is a hard job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":371.909,"endTime":374.73900000000003,"body":"I would be asking if someone"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":371.909,"endTime":374.73900000000003,"body":"has ever been a PM before,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":374.95399999999995,"endTime":376.634,"body":"why do you want to be a PM?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":376.82399999999996,"endTime":378.134,"body":"Do you know what"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":376.82399999999996,"endTime":378.134,"body":"you're getting into?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":378.68399999999997,"endTime":381.60400000000004,"body":"It's a great match for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":378.68399999999997,"endTime":381.60400000000004,"body":"the right people, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":381.60400000000004,"endTime":382.59400000000005,"body":"it's not for everyone."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":382.85400000000004,"endTime":385.014,"body":"I think in that case, if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":382.85400000000004,"endTime":385.014,"body":"the agency, which wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":385.014,"endTime":388.35400000000004,"body":"client of mine, if they had"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":385.014,"endTime":388.35400000000004,"body":"dug into the why on it, I"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":388.404,"endTime":390.45399999999995,"body":"think the candidate's story"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":388.404,"endTime":390.45399999999995,"body":"would have fallen apart."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":390.764,"endTime":393.264,"body":"And they would have realized"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":390.764,"endTime":393.264,"body":"that, I think what turned"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":393.264,"endTime":395.86400000000003,"body":"out was she was just applying"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":393.264,"endTime":395.86400000000003,"body":"for any job she could find"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":395.86400000000003,"endTime":399.20399999999995,"body":"and they hired her, but that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":395.86400000000003,"endTime":399.20399999999995,"body":"was a mistake all around."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":399.304,"endTime":401.054,"body":"No, I've seen"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":399.304,"endTime":401.054,"body":"that happen where it"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":401.054,"endTime":402.034,"body":"just appears upstream."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":402.034,"endTime":403.014,"body":"It's okay, I'm doing this."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":403.044,"endTime":403.95399999999995,"body":"What's the next step?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":403.95399999999995,"endTime":405.774,"body":"Maybe I can manage"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":403.95399999999995,"endTime":405.774,"body":"the people who do this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":406.054,"endTime":406.96400000000006,"body":"when they do projects."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":406.96400000000006,"endTime":407.784,"body":"Okay, that sounds good."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":407.794,"endTime":408.424,"body":"Off we go."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":409.004,"endTime":409.47400000000005,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":409.58399999999995,"endTime":409.86400000000003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":409.874,"endTime":410.11400000000003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":410.164,"endTime":410.624,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":410.624,"endTime":413.534,"body":"I love that sort of probing"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":410.624,"endTime":413.534,"body":"the why question when it's"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":413.554,"endTime":415.794,"body":"somebody applying for a role"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":413.554,"endTime":415.794,"body":"that doesn't actually have"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":415.794,"endTime":417.274,"body":"the experience in the role."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":417.629,"endTime":419.419,"body":"I gotta use that opportunity"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":417.629,"endTime":419.419,"body":"to zoom out a bit."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":419.60900000000004,"endTime":421.06899999999996,"body":"There's kind of a couple"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":419.60900000000004,"endTime":421.06899999999996,"body":"different paths I want to head"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":421.07899999999995,"endTime":423.32899999999995,"body":"down, but the reason why this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":421.07899999999995,"endTime":423.32899999999995,"body":"topic was really important"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":423.32899999999995,"endTime":427.149,"body":"to me was because so many of"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":423.32899999999995,"endTime":427.149,"body":"my listeners self identify as"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":427.289,"endTime":429.05899999999997,"body":"accidental project managers."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":429.289,"endTime":431.869,"body":"They were just in the right"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":429.289,"endTime":431.869,"body":"place at the right time."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":431.909,"endTime":433.929,"body":"We got"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":431.909,"endTime":433.929,"body":"deputized PM, elected PM,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":434.049,"endTime":435.504,"body":"and then the accidental."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":435.524,"endTime":436.394,"body":"The"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":435.524,"endTime":436.394,"body":"accidental, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":436.394,"endTime":437.69399999999996,"body":"And and it could"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":436.394,"endTime":437.69399999999996,"body":"be a blend of both."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":437.84400000000005,"endTime":439.904,"body":"Some of these individuals,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":437.84400000000005,"endTime":439.904,"body":"obviously, if you're listening"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":439.904,"endTime":442.21400000000006,"body":"to the podcast, they got"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":439.904,"endTime":442.21400000000006,"body":"the badge and they kept it."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":442.33399999999995,"endTime":444.58399999999995,"body":"That's actually how I got my"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":442.33399999999995,"endTime":444.58399999999995,"body":"start in project management too."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":444.58399999999995,"endTime":447.71400000000006,"body":"I was just there and I was"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":444.58399999999995,"endTime":447.71400000000006,"body":"available and I picked up the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":447.71400000000006,"endTime":448.84400000000005,"body":"badge when they threw it at me."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":449.754,"endTime":451.924,"body":"And I do see it, like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":449.754,"endTime":451.924,"body":"I mentioned at the top."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":452.169,"endTime":455.32899999999995,"body":"I do see this practice happen"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":452.169,"endTime":455.32899999999995,"body":"a lot in agencies and other"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":455.32899999999995,"endTime":457.999,"body":"organizations for those reasons"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":455.32899999999995,"endTime":457.999,"body":"that you mentioned, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":457.999,"endTime":459.95899999999995,"body":"Like sometimes it's not"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":457.999,"endTime":459.95899999999995,"body":"the right time to make"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":459.95899999999995,"endTime":461.139,"body":"a full time PM hire."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":461.149,"endTime":464.159,"body":"Sometimes you want to give"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":461.149,"endTime":464.159,"body":"opportunities to people who"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":464.159,"endTime":467.85900000000004,"body":"have shown promise or interest,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":464.159,"endTime":467.85900000000004,"body":"but it's still a bit of a dark"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":467.85900000000004,"endTime":471.05899999999997,"body":"art, I think, and it can really"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":467.85900000000004,"endTime":471.05899999999997,"body":"send people down the wrong"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":471.08900000000006,"endTime":474.279,"body":"path and it can create stress"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":471.08900000000006,"endTime":474.279,"body":"and it can create mismatched"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":474.279,"endTime":478.23900000000003,"body":"expectations for that deputizer,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":474.279,"endTime":478.23900000000003,"body":"accidental PM, as well as"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":478.289,"endTime":479.769,"body":"business risk for the agency."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":479.799,"endTime":481.44399999999996,"body":"So, that's what really"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":479.799,"endTime":481.44399999999996,"body":"got me thinking."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":481.45399999999995,"endTime":485.164,"body":"It got me thinking, how"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":481.45399999999995,"endTime":485.164,"body":"can wise decisions be made"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":485.23400000000004,"endTime":488.634,"body":"around appointing, what you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":485.23400000000004,"endTime":488.634,"body":"call deputizing, project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":488.634,"endTime":492.21400000000006,"body":"managers in an agency context"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":488.634,"endTime":492.21400000000006,"body":"so that everybody wins?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":492.21500000000003,"endTime":495.19399999999996,"body":"And I thought I might circle"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":492.21500000000003,"endTime":495.19399999999996,"body":"back around to that reluctance"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":495.22400000000005,"endTime":498.784,"body":"piece because you had written an"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":495.22400000000005,"endTime":498.784,"body":"article and it was a framework"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":499.044,"endTime":502.014,"body":"for getting things done, but"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":499.044,"endTime":502.014,"body":"I think it applies equally"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":502.014,"endTime":503.20399999999995,"body":"well to project managers."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":503.294,"endTime":506.07399999999996,"body":"It was that trifecta"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":503.294,"endTime":506.07399999999996,"body":"between desire and"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":506.07399999999996,"endTime":508.014,"body":"competence and capacity."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":508.304,"endTime":510.35400000000004,"body":"I was wondering if you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":508.304,"endTime":510.35400000000004,"body":"could walk us through that?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":510.44399999999996,"endTime":510.884,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":510.904,"endTime":513.724,"body":"Well, imagine a Venn diagram"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":510.904,"endTime":513.724,"body":"with three circles that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":513.724,"endTime":516.864,"body":"are intersecting desire,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":513.724,"endTime":516.864,"body":"competence, capacity."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":517.024,"endTime":519.874,"body":"And this came up as clients"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":517.024,"endTime":519.874,"body":"would say, I've got a team"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":519.884,"endTime":521.654,"body":"member and they're not"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":519.884,"endTime":521.654,"body":"getting their job done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":521.874,"endTime":525.114,"body":"Or sometimes that most of my"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":521.874,"endTime":525.114,"body":"work is with agency owners."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":525.254,"endTime":527.244,"body":"They were saying, I'm"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":525.254,"endTime":527.244,"body":"struggling to get things done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":527.245,"endTime":531.234,"body":"Or, I often hear things"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":527.245,"endTime":531.234,"body":"like I want to delegate to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":531.234,"endTime":534.154,"body":"my team, but I don't trust"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":531.234,"endTime":534.154,"body":"them to get the job done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":534.7139999999999,"endTime":538.124,"body":"As an advisor, as a coach and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":534.7139999999999,"endTime":538.124,"body":"consultant, one of the things"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":538.124,"endTime":542.194,"body":"that I would then wonder"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":538.124,"endTime":542.194,"body":"is, are you not delegating"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":542.204,"endTime":544.8639999999999,"body":"because indeed the team"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":542.204,"endTime":544.8639999999999,"body":"doesn't have what they need?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":545.209,"endTime":550.079,"body":"Or is it more of the boss's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":545.209,"endTime":550.079,"body":"problem and they could,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":550.369,"endTime":552.289,"body":"they're just not trusting"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":550.369,"endTime":552.289,"body":"them, even though they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":552.319,"endTime":553.659,"body":"could and maybe should."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":554.049,"endTime":556.8589999999999,"body":"And I identified this"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":554.049,"endTime":556.8589999999999,"body":"Venn diagram, desire,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":556.8589999999999,"endTime":557.689,"body":"competence, capacity."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":557.689,"endTime":559.5989999999999,"body":"And the idea is that you"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":557.689,"endTime":559.5989999999999,"body":"need all three of those"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":559.7289999999999,"endTime":560.639,"body":"for something to get done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":560.679,"endTime":563.7189999999999,"body":"And, conversely, if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":560.679,"endTime":563.7189999999999,"body":"something isn't getting done,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":563.7189999999999,"endTime":566.209,"body":"you're probably missing at"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":563.7189999999999,"endTime":566.209,"body":"least one of them, maybe"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":566.209,"endTime":567.709,"body":"two, perhaps all three."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":567.7289999999999,"endTime":570.039,"body":"So let's look at what they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":567.7289999999999,"endTime":570.039,"body":"are and how that works."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":570.049,"endTime":572.7289999999999,"body":"So the desire is, do"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":570.049,"endTime":572.7289999999999,"body":"you want to do the job?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":573.039,"endTime":575.249,"body":"Because if someone doesn't"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":573.039,"endTime":575.249,"body":"want to do the job, it's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":575.279,"endTime":576.309,"body":"probably not going to go well."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":576.619,"endTime":577.549,"body":"That's desire."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":577.7389999999999,"endTime":579.934,"body":"Competence is, do they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":577.7389999999999,"endTime":579.934,"body":"know how to do the job?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":580.324,"endTime":581.944,"body":"That could be the job"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":580.324,"endTime":581.944,"body":"they're doing now."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":581.944,"endTime":583.834,"body":"Or if you're looking"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":581.944,"endTime":583.834,"body":"to promote someone,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":584.024,"endTime":585.504,"body":"competence in the new role."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":585.754,"endTime":588.554,"body":"We talked about, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":585.754,"endTime":588.554,"body":"are tied to being an individual"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":588.554,"endTime":591.284,"body":"contributor to the managing"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":588.554,"endTime":591.284,"body":"people or managing projects,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":591.514,"endTime":593.694,"body":"just because you're good at"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":591.514,"endTime":593.694,"body":"doing the individual contributor"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":593.694,"endTime":596.194,"body":"work, doesn't mean you're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":593.694,"endTime":596.194,"body":"good at managing others at it."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":596.694,"endTime":600.8389999999999,"body":"So competence is going to scale"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":596.694,"endTime":600.8389999999999,"body":"over time, but competences"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":600.879,"endTime":601.749,"body":"can't even do the job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":602.069,"endTime":604.419,"body":"So desire, competence,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":602.069,"endTime":604.419,"body":"and capacity is do you"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":604.419,"endTime":606.449,"body":"have time to do the work?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":606.8489999999999,"endTime":608.3589999999999,"body":"Someone could have desire."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":608.3589999999999,"endTime":609.639,"body":"They want to do it, competence."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":609.639,"endTime":611.499,"body":"They know how, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":609.639,"endTime":611.499,"body":"they don't have time."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":611.499,"endTime":612.559,"body":"They don't have capacity."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":612.7289999999999,"endTime":615.3589999999999,"body":"That happens a lot for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":612.7289999999999,"endTime":615.3589999999999,"body":"people in leadership roles"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":615.499,"endTime":618.1089999999999,"body":"where you want to do it,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":615.499,"endTime":618.1089999999999,"body":"you know how to do it, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":618.119,"endTime":619.889,"body":"you're slammed with meetings."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":620.119,"endTime":621.409,"body":"You're putting out fires."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":621.409,"endTime":623.309,"body":"There's just no time in the day."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":623.309,"endTime":625.649,"body":"You haven't made the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":623.309,"endTime":625.649,"body":"transition, as I would say, from"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":625.8489999999999,"endTime":627.5989999999999,"body":"firefighter to fire marshal."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":627.8489999999999,"endTime":631.2289999999999,"body":"You're putting out the fires,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":627.8489999999999,"endTime":631.2289999999999,"body":"not preventing future fires."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":631.419,"endTime":634.499,"body":"So if something isn't getting"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":631.419,"endTime":634.499,"body":"done, I take a look for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":634.539,"endTime":636.8389999999999,"body":"an owner who's Oh, I don't"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":634.539,"endTime":636.8389999999999,"body":"want to delegate to my team."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":636.8389999999999,"endTime":637.639,"body":"They're not going"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":636.8389999999999,"endTime":637.639,"body":"to get it done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":637.639,"endTime":638.949,"body":"I said, well, take a look."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":639.039,"endTime":640.189,"body":"Do they have desire?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":640.199,"endTime":641.309,"body":"Do they have competence?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":641.309,"endTime":642.049,"body":"They have capacity."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":642.049,"endTime":644.2189999999999,"body":"If they're missing any of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":642.049,"endTime":644.2189999999999,"body":"those, that's a problem,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":644.259,"endTime":647.039,"body":"but you can address it"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":644.259,"endTime":647.039,"body":"and make things better."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":647.119,"endTime":649.694,"body":"What I like about"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":647.119,"endTime":649.694,"body":"that lens is that, when I first"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":649.694,"endTime":651.9639999999999,"body":"looked at that trifecta, I was,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":649.694,"endTime":651.9639999999999,"body":"looking at the Venn diagram."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":651.9639999999999,"endTime":653.814,"body":"I'm like, okay, up"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":651.9639999999999,"endTime":653.814,"body":"to that individual."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":653.834,"endTime":655.2339999999999,"body":"But then I started looking"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":653.834,"endTime":655.2339999999999,"body":"at it more closely."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":655.2339999999999,"endTime":657.704,"body":"I'm like, not necessarily like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":655.2339999999999,"endTime":657.704,"body":"that thing you flagged at the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":657.704,"endTime":660.7339999999999,"body":"beginning, like reluctance,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":657.704,"endTime":660.7339999999999,"body":"which is opposite of desire,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":660.7339999999999,"endTime":661.7239999999999,"body":"I think, in my worldview."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":661.914,"endTime":664.704,"body":"So if you've identified that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":661.914,"endTime":664.704,"body":"somebody has a desire to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":664.804,"endTime":668.3439999999999,"body":"explore project management,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":664.804,"endTime":668.3439999999999,"body":"like from an, I see a role."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":668.579,"endTime":669.949,"body":"Then that's a pretty good start."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":670.279,"endTime":672.139,"body":"But as you mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":670.279,"endTime":672.139,"body":"right, that person might be"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":672.139,"endTime":675.419,"body":"missing one or two or maybe"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":672.139,"endTime":675.419,"body":"all three of those things."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":675.419,"endTime":678.119,"body":"But if they have desire,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":675.419,"endTime":678.119,"body":"then the competence piece"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":678.449,"endTime":679.449,"body":"is kind of a split, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":679.449,"endTime":681.649,"body":"It's have you identified"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":679.449,"endTime":681.649,"body":"that they have the skills?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":682.009,"endTime":684.749,"body":"I mean, I guess, A) as an"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":682.009,"endTime":684.749,"body":"operator or as a manager, do"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":684.749,"endTime":687.259,"body":"you know what those skills"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":684.749,"endTime":687.259,"body":"are that would make them"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":687.259,"endTime":688.1089999999999,"body":"a good project manager?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":688.1089999999999,"endTime":690.7289999999999,"body":"Because I often see"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":688.1089999999999,"endTime":690.7289999999999,"body":"that get oversimplified."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":691.3489999999999,"endTime":692.929,"body":"You're good at communicating"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":691.3489999999999,"endTime":692.929,"body":"and you're organized."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":692.9789999999999,"endTime":694.309,"body":"You're a project manager now."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":694.519,"endTime":696.559,"body":"Not bad places to start, but"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":694.519,"endTime":696.559,"body":"not the whole kit and caboodle."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":696.929,"endTime":699.709,"body":"And then the capacity thing,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":696.929,"endTime":699.709,"body":"I think is like, when I look"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":699.709,"endTime":703.0989999999999,"body":"at it now, I'm like, the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":699.709,"endTime":703.0989999999999,"body":"onus is on the manager or"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":703.1089999999999,"endTime":704.9789999999999,"body":"the agency operator, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":704.9789999999999,"endTime":708.9889999999999,"body":"The agency leader to create"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":704.9789999999999,"endTime":708.9889999999999,"body":"the space and not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":708.9889999999999,"endTime":711.819,"body":"just go, Hey, we tacked on"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":708.9889999999999,"endTime":711.819,"body":"new responsibilities to your"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":711.819,"endTime":715.2389999999999,"body":"job, but you still have to run"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":711.819,"endTime":715.2389999999999,"body":"those 5, 15, 20 projects that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":715.2389999999999,"endTime":716.649,"body":"you're also the designer on."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":717.014,"endTime":717.334,"body":"Good luck."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":717.334,"endTime":717.814,"body":"Bye."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":717.894,"endTime":719.034,"body":"I think that's a huge piece."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":719.1039999999999,"endTime":720.1039999999999,"body":"That's unfair."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":720.154,"endTime":724.4839999999999,"body":"And I mean, that also gets into"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":720.154,"endTime":724.4839999999999,"body":"providing other resources, for"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":724.4839999999999,"endTime":728.3639999999999,"body":"instance, talk to an agency"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":724.4839999999999,"endTime":728.3639999999999,"body":"owner who grumbled that the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":728.374,"endTime":731.644,"body":"director of client services"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":728.374,"endTime":731.644,"body":"was making promises to clients"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":731.654,"endTime":735.244,"body":"without checking against the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":731.654,"endTime":735.244,"body":"sort of agency wide calendar."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":735.274,"endTime":736.784,"body":"And I said, okay,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":735.274,"endTime":736.784,"body":"who's in charge of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":736.784,"endTime":737.9839999999999,"body":"agency white calendar?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":738.154,"endTime":739.654,"body":"And the owner admitted,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":738.154,"endTime":739.654,"body":"well, actually, there"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":739.664,"endTime":741.154,"body":"was no agency wife."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":742.1039999999999,"endTime":742.7339999999999,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":743.209,"endTime":746.699,"body":"Problem number one, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":743.209,"endTime":746.699,"body":"you know, indeed the team"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":746.709,"endTime":749.819,"body":"should have been coordinating"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":746.709,"endTime":749.819,"body":"against the overall calendar,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":749.819,"endTime":752.039,"body":"but it is up to the owner"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":749.819,"endTime":752.039,"body":"to make sure it happens."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":752.899,"endTime":755.309,"body":"No, I appreciate that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":752.899,"endTime":755.309,"body":"sort of accountability piece."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":755.539,"endTime":757.769,"body":"And then I guess the one"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":755.539,"endTime":757.769,"body":"piece I glossed over in that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":757.799,"endTime":762.754,"body":"is that competence can also"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":757.799,"endTime":762.754,"body":"be the accountability of the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":762.754,"endTime":764.584,"body":"agency in this context as well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":764.804,"endTime":766.814,"body":"And, I was thinking through what"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":764.804,"endTime":766.814,"body":"you're saying about, okay, well,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":766.814,"endTime":770.3439999999999,"body":"yeah, it might be, you might"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":766.814,"endTime":770.3439999999999,"body":"be missing some things and that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":770.3439999999999,"endTime":773.264,"body":"might make it not a good choice,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":770.3439999999999,"endTime":773.264,"body":"but it also might make it a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":773.264,"endTime":774.794,"body":"choice that needs some support."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":774.824,"endTime":778.684,"body":"So in the event that somebody"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":774.824,"endTime":778.684,"body":"has desire and has capacity"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":778.684,"endTime":781.879,"body":"but isn't really competent,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":778.684,"endTime":781.879,"body":"what do you recommend to your"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":781.879,"endTime":784.559,"body":"clients to kind of fill that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":781.879,"endTime":784.559,"body":"part of the Venn diagram?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":784.569,"endTime":785.879,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":784.569,"endTime":785.879,"body":"ultimately they need three"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":785.879,"endTime":787.079,"body":"things for competence."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":787.079,"endTime":790.199,"body":"They need training on how"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":787.079,"endTime":790.199,"body":"to do it, knowing where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":790.199,"endTime":793.049,"body":"various resources are,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":790.199,"endTime":793.049,"body":"what done looks like."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":793.499,"endTime":796.399,"body":"For instance, a client mentioned"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":793.499,"endTime":796.399,"body":"that his team would take"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":796.509,"endTime":800.399,"body":"four hours to do things that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":796.509,"endTime":800.399,"body":"would take him 20 minutes."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":800.399,"endTime":801.4789999999999,"body":"I mean, it's a big"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":800.399,"endTime":801.4789999999999,"body":"difference, right?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":801.4789999999999,"endTime":802.909,"body":"You're like, Oh, what's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":801.4789999999999,"endTime":802.909,"body":"wrong with the team?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":802.919,"endTime":803.959,"body":"Well, I dug into it."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":804.199,"endTime":806.869,"body":"One, these are junior"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":804.199,"endTime":806.869,"body":"team members who had never"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":806.869,"endTime":807.879,"body":"done the work before."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":808.304,"endTime":809.8539999999999,"body":"He had never told them"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":808.304,"endTime":809.8539999999999,"body":"it was supposed to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":809.8539999999999,"endTime":810.874,"body":"take only 20 minutes."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":810.874,"endTime":813.044,"body":"They assumed four"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":810.874,"endTime":813.044,"body":"hours was normal."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":813.2139999999999,"endTime":816.934,"body":"And he also hadn't trained"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":813.2139999999999,"endTime":816.934,"body":"them on getting it done faster."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":816.934,"endTime":820.6139999999999,"body":"So training is important,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":816.934,"endTime":820.6139999999999,"body":"showing people how, and that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":820.624,"endTime":824.3439999999999,"body":"could be doing your own training"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":820.624,"endTime":824.3439999999999,"body":"or doing third party training"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":824.3439999999999,"endTime":827.834,"body":"from other organizations like"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":824.3439999999999,"endTime":827.834,"body":"the Digital Project Manager,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":827.8349999999999,"endTime":832.874,"body":"or, I've got my training agency,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":827.8349999999999,"endTime":832.874,"body":"PM 101 for deputized PMs."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":833.1039999999999,"endTime":835.074,"body":"You don't have to do all"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":833.1039999999999,"endTime":835.074,"body":"the training yourself,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":835.1039999999999,"endTime":837.679,"body":"but you need to recognize"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":835.1039999999999,"endTime":837.679,"body":"the need for training."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":837.869,"endTime":840.879,"body":"The second is coaching,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":837.869,"endTime":840.879,"body":"which is that inevitably,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":840.879,"endTime":842.9789999999999,"body":"training doesn't cover"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":840.879,"endTime":842.9789999999999,"body":"everything, coaching"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":842.999,"endTime":844.069,"body":"people through what to do."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":844.1089999999999,"endTime":845.879,"body":"I'm a fan of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":844.1089999999999,"endTime":845.879,"body":"Socratic method."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":846.419,"endTime":847.8389999999999,"body":"What do you think you should do?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":847.869,"endTime":849.039,"body":"I wouldn't solve that."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":849.299,"endTime":851.179,"body":"Eventually, you're going to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":849.299,"endTime":851.179,"body":"have to give an answer, right?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":851.179,"endTime":854.5889999999999,"body":"If it's just there, but, sort"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":851.179,"endTime":854.5889999999999,"body":"of an escalated approach or"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":854.7289999999999,"endTime":856.389,"body":"start, they make the three A's."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":856.409,"endTime":858.939,"body":"They make you aware,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":856.409,"endTime":858.939,"body":"then they ask for advice."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":858.939,"endTime":860.7189999999999,"body":"And then finally, you're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":858.939,"endTime":860.7189999999999,"body":"actively involved."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":861.129,"endTime":863.299,"body":"But the third thing"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":861.129,"endTime":863.299,"body":"is we've got training."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":863.309,"endTime":864.639,"body":"We've got coaching."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":864.639,"endTime":865.999,"body":"This is within competence."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":866.269,"endTime":870.204,"body":"The third thing is basically"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":866.269,"endTime":870.204,"body":"on-the-job experience, doing"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":870.204,"endTime":874.454,"body":"the job, learning along the way,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":870.204,"endTime":874.454,"body":"rather than working in a vacuum."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":874.7139999999999,"endTime":877.794,"body":"My joke as a PM was that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":874.7139999999999,"endTime":877.794,"body":"every PM, if you're a web"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":877.794,"endTime":880.8539999999999,"body":"project manager, was going"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":877.794,"endTime":880.8539999999999,"body":"to have launched a website"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":880.884,"endTime":883.644,"body":"without installing the Google"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":880.884,"endTime":883.644,"body":"Analytics tracking code."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":885.829,"endTime":890.459,"body":"And when you were hiring"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":885.829,"endTime":890.459,"body":"an experienced web PM, part"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":890.459,"endTime":892.2289999999999,"body":"of what you were doing was"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":890.459,"endTime":892.2289999999999,"body":"they had made that mistake"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":892.2289999999999,"endTime":894.009,"body":"for someone else and then"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":892.2289999999999,"endTime":894.009,"body":"would never do it again."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":895.319,"endTime":898.6089999999999,"body":"That's why a PM is going to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":895.319,"endTime":898.6089999999999,"body":"expect higher compensation"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":898.619,"endTime":902.2189999999999,"body":"than a project coordinator or"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":898.619,"endTime":902.2189999999999,"body":"senior PM or director of PM."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":902.439,"endTime":904.499,"body":"You're paying in part"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":902.439,"endTime":904.499,"body":"from their having learned"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":904.519,"endTime":905.559,"body":"on other companies."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":906.169,"endTime":907.259,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":906.169,"endTime":907.259,"body":"no, I love that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":907.279,"endTime":909.409,"body":"And can I just say that I"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":907.279,"endTime":909.409,"body":"love that you have a course"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":909.6089999999999,"endTime":912.424,"body":"for deputized project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":909.6089999999999,"endTime":912.424,"body":"managers, because it's this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":912.444,"endTime":915.3639999999999,"body":"underserved need, I find."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":915.584,"endTime":917.134,"body":"Because it happens all the time."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":917.314,"endTime":918.304,"body":"Here's the badge."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":918.574,"endTime":919.064,"body":"Go."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":919.084,"endTime":920.0939999999999,"body":"You have desire."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":920.184,"endTime":921.384,"body":"I'm giving you capacity."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":921.504,"endTime":922.374,"body":"It'll be fine, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":922.414,"endTime":925.834,"body":"And they don't need a degree in"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":922.414,"endTime":925.834,"body":"project management at that stage"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":925.834,"endTime":927.174,"body":"in their sort of career journey."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":927.174,"endTime":928.6039999999999,"body":"And they, they don't"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":927.174,"endTime":928.6039999999999,"body":"need their PMP."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":928.784,"endTime":930.534,"body":"They don't, arguably,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":928.784,"endTime":930.534,"body":"don't even, wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":930.534,"endTime":933.2339999999999,"body":"even benefit from, a CAPM"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":930.534,"endTime":933.2339999999999,"body":"sort of training course."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":933.549,"endTime":935.789,"body":"It's more practical, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":936.069,"endTime":937.659,"body":"It's just here's what"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":936.069,"endTime":937.659,"body":"you need to know."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":938.269,"endTime":939.529,"body":"It's the basics."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":939.529,"endTime":942.819,"body":"It's kind of like a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":939.529,"endTime":942.819,"body":"friend mentioned how their"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":942.819,"endTime":945.959,"body":"boyfriend studied nuclear"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":942.819,"endTime":945.959,"body":"engineering in the Navy."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":946.2389999999999,"endTime":948.449,"body":"And the initial training was"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":946.2389999999999,"endTime":948.449,"body":"like, here are the basics"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":948.449,"endTime":949.689,"body":"of nuclear engineering."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":949.994,"endTime":953.304,"body":"This is in an enlisted role,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":949.994,"endTime":953.304,"body":"and then basically the plan"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":953.304,"endTime":955.9639999999999,"body":"was he was going to go back"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":953.304,"endTime":955.9639999999999,"body":"and get a bachelor's degree"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":956.174,"endTime":959.504,"body":"in nuclear engineering, which"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":956.174,"endTime":959.504,"body":"basically filled in a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":959.504,"endTime":962.834,"body":"theory that he hadn't learned"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":959.504,"endTime":962.834,"body":"on the more operating basis."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":962.8439999999999,"endTime":966.934,"body":"So the Deputized PM course, and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":962.8439999999999,"endTime":966.934,"body":"thanks to your persuasiveness,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":966.9839999999999,"endTime":970.324,"body":"we've created a discount code"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":966.9839999999999,"endTime":970.324,"body":"for listeners of the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":970.494,"endTime":973.019,"body":"which I think we'll share"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":970.494,"endTime":973.019,"body":"in the show notes and all."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":973.169,"endTime":977.079,"body":"But here it's more about"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":973.169,"endTime":977.079,"body":"the nuts and bolts of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":977.179,"endTime":978.899,"body":"being a deputized PM."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":979.209,"endTime":981.709,"body":"If you want the theory,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":979.209,"endTime":981.709,"body":"there's a lot more you can"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":981.709,"endTime":984.9789999999999,"body":"get elsewhere, but this is"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":981.709,"endTime":984.9789999999999,"body":"more like you got to do PM."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":985.289,"endTime":988.819,"body":"You don't need a history of how"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":985.289,"endTime":988.819,"body":"the Gantt chart was developed."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":988.939,"endTime":991.9889999999999,"body":"You just need to put"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":988.939,"endTime":991.9889999999999,"body":"out the fire right now."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":992.039,"endTime":992.759,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":992.759,"endTime":994.619,"body":"It's like actually"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":992.759,"endTime":994.619,"body":"the practicality, the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":994.619,"endTime":995.679,"body":"practical training leads."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":996.069,"endTime":997.949,"body":"The theory follows"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":996.069,"endTime":997.949,"body":"to fill in the gaps."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":997.949,"endTime":1000.9689999999999,"body":"I find so often that in"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":997.949,"endTime":1000.9689999999999,"body":"the training world, the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1000.9789999999999,"endTime":1002.009,"body":"opposite happens, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1002.029,"endTime":1002.949,"body":"Here's all this theory."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1003.169,"endTime":1003.9789999999999,"body":"Go and do the job."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1003.9789999999999,"endTime":1005.059,"body":"And they're like, Oh."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1006.169,"endTime":1006.6089999999999,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1006.959,"endTime":1007.669,"body":"Dangerous."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1007.809,"endTime":1008.649,"body":"I will"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1007.809,"endTime":1008.649,"body":"come back to that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1008.649,"endTime":1011.199,"body":"We do have a deal on that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1008.649,"endTime":1011.199,"body":"program, which I couldn't"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1011.199,"endTime":1013.829,"body":"recommend enough just because"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1011.199,"endTime":1013.829,"body":"I think it's just so useful."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1013.829,"endTime":1015.069,"body":"And there's there's"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1013.829,"endTime":1015.069,"body":"nothing quite like it."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1015.209,"endTime":1017.909,"body":"Before that, I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1015.209,"endTime":1017.909,"body":"just shift on to another idea"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1017.9789999999999,"endTime":1020.289,"body":"that you had, because I was"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1017.9789999999999,"endTime":1020.289,"body":"thinking about this sort of"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1020.289,"endTime":1023.679,"body":"trifecta of the desire, the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1020.289,"endTime":1023.679,"body":"competence and the capacity."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1023.919,"endTime":1026.8990000000001,"body":"And I was also reading through"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1023.919,"endTime":1026.8990000000001,"body":"some of your work and you had"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1026.8990000000001,"endTime":1031.479,"body":"mentioned this notion about new"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1026.8990000000001,"endTime":1031.479,"body":"rope versus wet twine as a way"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1031.479,"endTime":1033.319,"body":"of describing employee mindsets."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1033.459,"endTime":1036.419,"body":"It really resonated with"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1033.459,"endTime":1036.419,"body":"me separately from this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1036.439,"endTime":1039.039,"body":"trifecta of Hey, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1036.439,"endTime":1039.039,"body":"appoint you to do this thing."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1039.189,"endTime":1041.209,"body":"I was wondering if you could"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1039.189,"endTime":1041.209,"body":"just walk us through that idea."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1041.349,"endTime":1041.789,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1041.789,"endTime":1045.249,"body":"So this is a concept that I got"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1041.789,"endTime":1045.249,"body":"through my friend, Stan Phelps."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1045.469,"endTime":1048.979,"body":"The idea is that there's a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1045.469,"endTime":1048.979,"body":"continuum around employee"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1048.979,"endTime":1051.029,"body":"or any team member quality."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1051.459,"endTime":1055.274,"body":"At the top end, the ideal"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1051.459,"endTime":1055.274,"body":"end of things is new rope."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1055.5439999999999,"endTime":1059.2939999999999,"body":"New rope, imagine working"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1055.5439999999999,"endTime":1059.2939999999999,"body":"with rope, in Voice Scouts"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1059.2939999999999,"endTime":1061.994,"body":"I did pioneering where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1059.2939999999999,"endTime":1061.994,"body":"you build structures from"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1062.204,"endTime":1063.374,"body":"logs and rope and all."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1063.374,"endTime":1064.5439999999999,"body":"New rope is strong."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1064.914,"endTime":1067.104,"body":"In this case, those new rope"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1064.914,"endTime":1067.104,"body":"team members are going to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1067.104,"endTime":1068.704,"body":"drive your agency forward."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1068.864,"endTime":1070.0539999999999,"body":"They make your life easier."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1070.0539999999999,"endTime":1072.764,"body":"They're the 10x team"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1070.0539999999999,"endTime":1072.764,"body":"members, that maybe"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1072.774,"endTime":1074.464,"body":"even 100x team members."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1074.644,"endTime":1077.184,"body":"At the other end of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1074.644,"endTime":1077.184,"body":"the scale is wet twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1077.194,"endTime":1079.2939999999999,"body":"Wet twine is not very strong."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1079.5439999999999,"endTime":1081.114,"body":"It's, fraying already."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1081.214,"endTime":1083.7939999999999,"body":"If you have an employee"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1081.214,"endTime":1083.7939999999999,"body":"who causes drama, who's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1083.7939999999999,"endTime":1086.334,"body":"always stirring things up,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1083.7939999999999,"endTime":1086.334,"body":"they're definitely wet twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1086.5539999999999,"endTime":1089.714,"body":"Not every wet twine employee"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1086.5539999999999,"endTime":1089.714,"body":"causes drama, but if they cause"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1089.714,"endTime":1091.404,"body":"drama, they are wet twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1091.664,"endTime":1094.5539999999999,"body":"They tend to be very"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1091.664,"endTime":1094.5539999999999,"body":"unproductive, especially"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1094.5539999999999,"endTime":1097.514,"body":"relative to all of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1094.5539999999999,"endTime":1097.514,"body":"management oversight that you"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1097.514,"endTime":1101.074,"body":"need, whether you're in a PM"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1097.514,"endTime":1101.074,"body":"role or a people manager role."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1101.254,"endTime":1103.3039999999999,"body":"For instance, I worked with"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1101.254,"endTime":1103.3039999999999,"body":"a client that had hired"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1103.3039999999999,"endTime":1106.319,"body":"someone who had badgered"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1103.3039999999999,"endTime":1106.319,"body":"them into hiring him."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1106.549,"endTime":1107.759,"body":"They were in a small town."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1107.949,"endTime":1112.139,"body":"This was, pre-remote roles as"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1107.949,"endTime":1112.139,"body":"much, and they needed the hire."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1112.139,"endTime":1115.489,"body":"And finally he persuaded"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1112.139,"endTime":1115.489,"body":"them to give him a chance and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1115.489,"endTime":1116.9289999999999,"body":"they foolishly believed him."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1116.9289999999999,"endTime":1119.119,"body":"And he was so unproductive."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1119.369,"endTime":1121.229,"body":"They actually put his"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1119.369,"endTime":1121.229,"body":"desk outside of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1121.229,"endTime":1122.799,"body":"agency president's office."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1122.959,"endTime":1124.789,"body":"So the president could"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1122.959,"endTime":1124.789,"body":"look out the door and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1124.819,"endTime":1126.109,"body":"see, was this guy working?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1126.309,"endTime":1129.319,"body":"And usually the answer"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1126.309,"endTime":1129.319,"body":"was no, or at least not"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1129.319,"endTime":1130.339,"body":"doing a very good job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1130.584,"endTime":1133.774,"body":"So they ultimately parted"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1130.584,"endTime":1133.774,"body":"ways before hiring me as their"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1133.774,"endTime":1137.0439999999999,"body":"consultant, but I surely would"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1133.774,"endTime":1137.0439999999999,"body":"have recommended firing him"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1137.0539999999999,"endTime":1138.384,"body":"if that had been the case."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1138.594,"endTime":1140.654,"body":"The reason why it"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1138.594,"endTime":1140.654,"body":"stood out to me was because"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1140.864,"endTime":1142.104,"body":"I see these situations."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1142.104,"endTime":1144.694,"body":"I'm glad you mentioned this,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1142.104,"endTime":1144.694,"body":"like scenario of someone sort"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1144.694,"endTime":1147.0439999999999,"body":"of badgering them to get a role."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1147.154,"endTime":1149.114,"body":"I see the same thing"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1147.154,"endTime":1149.114,"body":"happen internally."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1149.2939999999999,"endTime":1151.094,"body":"That use case that you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1149.2939999999999,"endTime":1151.094,"body":"mentioned at the top, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1151.244,"endTime":1154.229,"body":"A designer, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1151.244,"endTime":1154.229,"body":"they're appointed, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1154.229,"endTime":1154.819,"body":"They're deputized."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1154.859,"endTime":1157.439,"body":"They're like, listen, I need you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1154.859,"endTime":1157.439,"body":"to manage this project as well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1157.609,"endTime":1159.819,"body":"And if they have the desire"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1157.609,"endTime":1159.819,"body":"and they have the competence"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1159.819,"endTime":1161.939,"body":"and they have the capacity,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1159.819,"endTime":1161.939,"body":"like that might be a good fit."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1162.189,"endTime":1164.459,"body":"And then I've seen the other"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1162.189,"endTime":1164.459,"body":"thing that actually we touched"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1164.459,"endTime":1167.9089999999999,"body":"on earlier, which is I want"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1164.459,"endTime":1167.9089999999999,"body":"to be a project manager."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1167.9189999999999,"endTime":1170.369,"body":"I have the desire"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1167.9189999999999,"endTime":1170.369,"body":"and have the skills."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1170.589,"endTime":1173.359,"body":"I have the capacity or you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1170.589,"endTime":1173.359,"body":"can create the capacity for"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1173.359,"endTime":1175.939,"body":"them, but they might still"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1173.359,"endTime":1175.939,"body":"be this wet twine, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1176.234,"endTime":1177.694,"body":"They're going to create drama."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1177.834,"endTime":1180.844,"body":"They might be sort of badgering"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1177.834,"endTime":1180.844,"body":"you into deputizing them"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1180.864,"endTime":1182.224,"body":"to be a project manager."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1182.8039999999999,"endTime":1187.144,"body":"But it can be a fallacy that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1182.8039999999999,"endTime":1187.144,"body":"this person will suddenly become"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1187.224,"endTime":1189.5339999999999,"body":"new rope and won't be drama."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1189.624,"endTime":1190.744,"body":"Yeah, usually not."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1190.9189999999999,"endTime":1194.279,"body":"It is worth considering that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1190.9189999999999,"endTime":1194.279,"body":"there's new rope, wet twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1194.279,"endTime":1195.799,"body":"There's also we could"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1194.279,"endTime":1195.799,"body":"call it 'in the middle'."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1195.939,"endTime":1197.519,"body":"They're not new rope."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1197.519,"endTime":1198.449,"body":"They're not wet twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1198.459,"endTime":1201.4189999999999,"body":"But if someone is, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1198.459,"endTime":1201.4189999999999,"body":"in the middle in their current"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1201.4189999999999,"endTime":1204.059,"body":"job, and you realize they're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1201.4189999999999,"endTime":1204.059,"body":"going to be wet twine in the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1204.149,"endTime":1207.399,"body":"future job they want, don't"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1204.149,"endTime":1207.399,"body":"move them into the new job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1207.4289999999999,"endTime":1209.459,"body":"That's not going to go smoothly."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1209.6689999999999,"endTime":1213.709,"body":"And this also, I, when I onboard"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1209.6689999999999,"endTime":1213.709,"body":"new clients for my agency growth"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1213.709,"endTime":1217.254,"body":"diagnostic initial 4 - 6 week"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1213.709,"endTime":1217.254,"body":"project, part of that includes"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1217.254,"endTime":1219.944,"body":"doing a team census, where they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1217.254,"endTime":1219.944,"body":"list everyone on the team, and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1219.944,"endTime":1223.574,"body":"then they add annotated notes,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1219.944,"endTime":1223.574,"body":"including, are they new rope,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1223.574,"endTime":1224.774,"body":"wet twine, or in the middle?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1225.004,"endTime":1228.114,"body":"And from having worked"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1225.004,"endTime":1228.114,"body":"with hundreds of agencies,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1228.274,"endTime":1229.114,"body":"there's some patterns."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1229.874,"endTime":1234.974,"body":"And it's hard to grow your"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1229.874,"endTime":1234.974,"body":"agency with any wet twine,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1235.199,"endTime":1237.6589999999999,"body":"and you're certainly not going"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1235.199,"endTime":1237.6589999999999,"body":"to reach your growth goals."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1238.069,"endTime":1241.099,"body":"Something to think about if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1238.069,"endTime":1241.099,"body":"you've been struggling, make a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1241.099,"endTime":1242.589,"body":"list of everyone on your team."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1242.709,"endTime":1245.499,"body":"You can read my article on"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1242.709,"endTime":1245.499,"body":"New Rope versus Wet Twine."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1245.719,"endTime":1248.319,"body":"And if you notice a lot"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1245.719,"endTime":1248.319,"body":"of wet twine or in the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1248.319,"endTime":1250.859,"body":"middle, especially even in"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1248.319,"endTime":1250.859,"body":"the middle in leadership"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1250.859,"endTime":1253.644,"body":"roles, that is hurting"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1250.859,"endTime":1253.644,"body":"your growth, most likely."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1253.7939999999999,"endTime":1254.464,"body":"That's interesting."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1254.604,"endTime":1257.184,"body":"The one thing that kind"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1254.604,"endTime":1257.184,"body":"of got me thinking was"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1257.444,"endTime":1260.0339999999999,"body":"that in the middle bit,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1257.444,"endTime":1260.0339999999999,"body":"and then the deputized PM."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1260.094,"endTime":1264.424,"body":"And if you are somebody, a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1260.094,"endTime":1264.424,"body":"manager or an agency owner or"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1264.424,"endTime":1267.724,"body":"operator, like what are things"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1264.424,"endTime":1267.724,"body":"to look out for if somebody"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1267.954,"endTime":1271.399,"body":"is sort of not really settling"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1267.954,"endTime":1271.399,"body":"into that deputized PM role?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1271.399,"endTime":1273.129,"body":"Like when do you call it?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1273.149,"endTime":1275.119,"body":"What are some of the flags"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1273.149,"endTime":1275.119,"body":"that you should look for to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1275.119,"endTime":1277.769,"body":"be like, actually, even though"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1275.119,"endTime":1277.769,"body":"this person wanted it and"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1277.769,"endTime":1280.9189999999999,"body":"they're capable and we make"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1277.769,"endTime":1280.9189999999999,"body":"capacity for them and they're"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1280.9189999999999,"endTime":1283.604,"body":"not wet twine, but they're"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1280.9189999999999,"endTime":1283.604,"body":"somewhere in the middle, but"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1283.604,"endTime":1284.5439999999999,"body":"it's just not working out."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1284.684,"endTime":1289.414,"body":"What are some flags that might"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1284.684,"endTime":1289.414,"body":"signal that it may be time to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1289.624,"endTime":1291.484,"body":"not to take the badge away?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1291.574,"endTime":1292.174,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1292.434,"endTime":1294.2839999999999,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1292.434,"endTime":1294.2839999999999,"body":"some of it includes taking"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1294.2839999999999,"endTime":1295.344,"body":"a look at their morale."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1295.5439999999999,"endTime":1299.074,"body":"Ideally, you're doing some"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1295.5439999999999,"endTime":1299.074,"body":"sort of pulse engagement type"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1299.074,"endTime":1303.244,"body":"survey, 15Five or something"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1299.074,"endTime":1303.244,"body":"else, monitoring morale."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1303.244,"endTime":1306.834,"body":"And if you notice a drop in"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1303.244,"endTime":1306.834,"body":"morale since moving into the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1306.834,"endTime":1310.604,"body":"new deputized PM role, And then"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1306.834,"endTime":1310.604,"body":"you also there's always going"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1310.604,"endTime":1313.854,"body":"to be an initial challenge"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1310.604,"endTime":1313.854,"body":"when you start a new role."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1313.854,"endTime":1316.5539999999999,"body":"You're trying to adapt, but"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1313.854,"endTime":1316.5539999999999,"body":"ideally, they're going to revert"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1316.604,"endTime":1319.724,"body":"to their previous morale level"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1316.604,"endTime":1319.724,"body":"as they get to know the job."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1319.734,"endTime":1321.484,"body":"They're getting support"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1319.734,"endTime":1321.484,"body":"and things like that."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1321.8039999999999,"endTime":1324.624,"body":"If you're noticing, though, that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1321.8039999999999,"endTime":1324.624,"body":"it's not getting better, and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1324.624,"endTime":1327.024,"body":"if you're their direct manager,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1324.624,"endTime":1327.024,"body":"ideally, you're doing weekly"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1327.024,"endTime":1330.154,"body":"one-on-one meetings, or threes,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1327.024,"endTime":1330.154,"body":"or you might be doing monthly"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1330.154,"endTime":1333.494,"body":"skip levels if there's someone"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1330.154,"endTime":1333.494,"body":"in between as the manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1333.779,"endTime":1337.019,"body":"But, paying attention to how"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1333.779,"endTime":1337.019,"body":"they're doing, a friend works"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1337.019,"endTime":1340.9089999999999,"body":"at a large corporation and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1337.019,"endTime":1340.9089999999999,"body":"joined a new team and is a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1340.9089999999999,"endTime":1344.299,"body":"bit underwater, but has sort"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1340.9089999999999,"endTime":1344.299,"body":"of kept that to themselves."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1344.539,"endTime":1347.089,"body":"And it turns out that's probably"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1344.539,"endTime":1347.089,"body":"a good match for the company"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1347.089,"endTime":1350.009,"body":"and team culture because in"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1347.089,"endTime":1350.009,"body":"the recent performance review,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1350.199,"endTime":1353.369,"body":"the boss said something"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1350.199,"endTime":1353.369,"body":"like never complains."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1354.969,"endTime":1357.719,"body":"I would rather hear"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1354.969,"endTime":1357.719,"body":"complaints from my team."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1357.879,"endTime":1359.339,"body":"I mean, I solicit that."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1359.614,"endTime":1362.994,"body":"Because if people aren't happy"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1359.614,"endTime":1362.994,"body":"at work, and there are things"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1363.004,"endTime":1366.984,"body":"you can do to improve that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1363.004,"endTime":1366.984,"body":"and you choose not to, or you"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1366.984,"endTime":1370.574,"body":"don't even ask kind of what's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1366.984,"endTime":1370.574,"body":"going on, people have options,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1370.644,"endTime":1374.494,"body":"especially if you have new"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1370.644,"endTime":1374.494,"body":"rope on your team, they can"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1374.504,"endTime":1378.309,"body":"go somewhere else, make them"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1374.504,"endTime":1378.309,"body":"feel appreciated, feel valued."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1378.529,"endTime":1381.459,"body":"So, I don't know, if you want"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1378.529,"endTime":1381.459,"body":"to retain good team members,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1381.649,"endTime":1384.209,"body":"ask how they're doing, and if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1381.649,"endTime":1384.209,"body":"they're in the wrong role, and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1384.209,"endTime":1387.029,"body":"you can move them somewhere"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1384.209,"endTime":1387.029,"body":"else that's a better fit, do it."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1387.389,"endTime":1390.399,"body":"What I love about"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1387.389,"endTime":1390.399,"body":"that is that nowhere did that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1390.4289999999999,"endTime":1394.04,"body":"kind of go into a, look at this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1390.4289999999999,"endTime":1394.04,"body":"KPI, and if the KPI is like too"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1394.04,"endTime":1398.07,"body":"low, then you just have to cut"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1394.04,"endTime":1398.07,"body":"them, which is valid as well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1398.42,"endTime":1401.385,"body":"But I think what people"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1398.42,"endTime":1401.385,"body":"underestimate as managers"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1401.405,"endTime":1404.2549999999999,"body":"is the just checking in, how"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1401.405,"endTime":1404.2549999999999,"body":"are you doing and letting"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1404.2649999999999,"endTime":1405.575,"body":"that be the sense check."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1405.605,"endTime":1409.075,"body":"Because there are cultures"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1405.605,"endTime":1409.075,"body":"where yes, it's valued if you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1409.335,"endTime":1412.415,"body":"never complain, so then no"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1409.335,"endTime":1412.415,"body":"one's going to complain and as"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1412.415,"endTime":1415.474,"body":"a result, you're never going"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1412.415,"endTime":1415.474,"body":"to get that feedback or sort"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1415.474,"endTime":1417.114,"body":"of get that understanding"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1415.474,"endTime":1417.114,"body":"of what's going on in your"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1417.114,"endTime":1418.735,"body":"business, but I do like that."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1418.905,"endTime":1421.095,"body":"To your point"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1418.905,"endTime":1421.095,"body":"about KPIs, I mean, if someone"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1421.095,"endTime":1424.385,"body":"is managing projects and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1421.095,"endTime":1424.385,"body":"everything's going over budget"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1424.385,"endTime":1427.7549999999999,"body":"and over the schedule and all,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1424.385,"endTime":1427.7549999999999,"body":"like they could have super high"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1427.785,"endTime":1431.224,"body":"morale, but if everything is off"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1427.785,"endTime":1431.224,"body":"the rails, that is a problem."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1431.274,"endTime":1433.104,"body":"Don't ignore the KPIs."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1433.344,"endTime":1436.364,"body":"Also, don't do what a client"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1433.344,"endTime":1436.364,"body":"did several years ago."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1436.364,"endTime":1439.194,"body":"They reached out and the owner"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1436.364,"endTime":1439.194,"body":"had said basically like my"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1439.214,"endTime":1440.694,"body":"book work less, earn more."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1440.724,"endTime":1443.814,"body":"The owner had said, I've"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1440.724,"endTime":1443.814,"body":"been running this for over"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1443.814,"endTime":1446.594,"body":"a decade, I'm not making as"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1443.814,"endTime":1446.594,"body":"much money, and I'm working"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1446.694,"endTime":1447.734,"body":"longer hours and all."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1447.914,"endTime":1450.254,"body":"And I found a number of"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1447.914,"endTime":1450.254,"body":"problems, one of which was"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1450.254,"endTime":1452.634,"body":"that they were regularly"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1450.254,"endTime":1452.634,"body":"going over budget by 50"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1452.634,"endTime":1454.484,"body":"to 80 percent on projects."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1454.7839999999999,"endTime":1457.764,"body":"So I talked through various"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1454.7839999999999,"endTime":1457.764,"body":"things, including levers"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1457.7939999999999,"endTime":1459.444,"body":"for delivery profit margins."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1459.6789999999999,"endTime":1462.079,"body":"Which is basically raise"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1459.6789999999999,"endTime":1462.079,"body":"prices, reduce the scope"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1462.089,"endTime":1463.769,"body":"or manage the scope."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1464.019,"endTime":1466.229,"body":"I'll be talking about dealing"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1464.019,"endTime":1466.229,"body":"with scope creep at the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1466.239,"endTime":1471.6589999999999,"body":"MYOB conference, October"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1466.239,"endTime":1471.6589999999999,"body":"2024, and also a PM-oriented"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1471.6789999999999,"endTime":1474.729,"body":"version at the Digital PM"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1471.6789999999999,"endTime":1474.729,"body":"Summit, of course, coming up."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1474.9189999999999,"endTime":1476.9289999999999,"body":"We're we'll both"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1474.9189999999999,"endTime":1476.9289999999999,"body":"be there in Austin."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1477.1589999999999,"endTime":1481.069,"body":"I've shared various advice and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1477.1589999999999,"endTime":1481.069,"body":"the client's head of operations"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1481.269,"endTime":1484.449,"body":"actually asked when I'd"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1481.269,"endTime":1484.449,"body":"said, stop going over budget."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1485.734,"endTime":1488.114,"body":"The operations heads"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1485.734,"endTime":1488.114,"body":"question was, well, how"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1488.124,"endTime":1489.444,"body":"over budget can we go?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1489.744,"endTime":1491.634,"body":"And I'm like, how much"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1489.744,"endTime":1491.634,"body":"money do you want to lose?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1492.914,"endTime":1493.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1493.5439999999999,"endTime":1494.994,"body":"That's the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1493.5439999999999,"endTime":1494.994,"body":"thing about and there is"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1494.994,"endTime":1497.674,"body":"this widespread myth and"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1494.994,"endTime":1497.674,"body":"misunderstanding that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1497.684,"endTime":1500.524,"body":"agency margins are huge,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1497.684,"endTime":1500.524,"body":"but they're really not."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1500.764,"endTime":1504.014,"body":"Typically half or"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1500.764,"endTime":1504.014,"body":"more of the revenue is going out"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1504.014,"endTime":1508.494,"body":"the door in labor compensation,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1504.014,"endTime":1508.494,"body":"including the owner and owners,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1508.774,"endTime":1510.664,"body":"as well as key team members."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1510.949,"endTime":1514.129,"body":"Just because the agency brings"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1510.949,"endTime":1514.129,"body":"in a million or 10 million or"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1514.129,"endTime":1516.549,"body":"100 million, that's not all"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1514.129,"endTime":1516.549,"body":"going to the owner's pocket."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1516.839,"endTime":1517.789,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1517.969,"endTime":1518.839,"body":"And actually, you know what?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1519.049,"endTime":1521.589,"body":"This is a really good segue"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1519.049,"endTime":1521.589,"body":"because we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1521.589,"endTime":1526.849,"body":"about the benefits and how to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1521.589,"endTime":1526.849,"body":"appoint a PM, to deputize a PM"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1526.859,"endTime":1528.019,"body":"and how to support that person."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1528.314,"endTime":1532.454,"body":"But I guess the flip side is the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1528.314,"endTime":1532.454,"body":"sort of differential in value."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1532.504,"endTime":1535.344,"body":"Like you mentioned, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1532.504,"endTime":1535.344,"body":"you're hiring a project"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1535.344,"endTime":1537.674,"body":"manager, you're paying for the"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1535.344,"endTime":1537.674,"body":"experience of where they've"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1537.674,"endTime":1539.114,"body":"made mistakes before, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1539.134,"endTime":1542.2649999999999,"body":"Making sure that, the analytics"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1539.134,"endTime":1542.2649999999999,"body":"tracking code is in there at"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1542.2649999999999,"endTime":1543.665,"body":"launch, you're paying for that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1543.825,"endTime":1545.905,"body":"When you're working with your"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1543.825,"endTime":1545.905,"body":"clients, what do you recommend"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1545.905,"endTime":1548.7649999999999,"body":"to them in terms of like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1545.905,"endTime":1548.7649999999999,"body":"when it's better from an ROI"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1548.7649999999999,"endTime":1552.075,"body":"standpoint to actually double"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1548.7649999999999,"endTime":1552.075,"body":"down and hire an experienced"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1552.075,"endTime":1554.545,"body":"project manager that can"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1552.075,"endTime":1554.545,"body":"deliver value out of the gates"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1554.865,"endTime":1556.715,"body":"instead of deputizing a PM?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1556.725,"endTime":1559.145,"body":"I mean, if we're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1556.725,"endTime":1559.145,"body":"looking at agency headcount"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1559.175,"endTime":1562.315,"body":"between 8 to 12 peoples,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1559.175,"endTime":1562.315,"body":"when you should likely hire"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1562.585,"endTime":1564.235,"body":"a dedicated project manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1564.475,"endTime":1567.565,"body":"If you're doing more"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1564.475,"endTime":1567.565,"body":"technical work, potentially"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1567.705,"endTime":1568.845,"body":"it could be even sooner."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1569.145,"endTime":1572.345,"body":"Keeping in mind that the PM"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1569.145,"endTime":1572.345,"body":"is going to be profitable by"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1572.365,"endTime":1575.285,"body":"themselves, but because they"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1572.365,"endTime":1575.285,"body":"might be building maybe 50"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1575.285,"endTime":1578.745,"body":"percent of their time or so, say"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1575.285,"endTime":1578.745,"body":"20 to 25 hours a week, they're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1578.745,"endTime":1581.815,"body":"not going to be as profitable"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1578.745,"endTime":1581.815,"body":"as a subject matter expert."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1581.965,"endTime":1584.895,"body":"However, the PM gives"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1581.965,"endTime":1584.895,"body":"you a multiplier effect."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1585.205,"endTime":1589.745,"body":"If an agency is using a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1585.205,"endTime":1589.745,"body":"mostly outsourcing model where"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1589.975,"endTime":1593.395,"body":"freelancers or other way level"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1589.975,"endTime":1593.395,"body":"agencies are doing the work,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1593.62,"endTime":1597.06,"body":"in that case a PM might be your"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1593.62,"endTime":1597.06,"body":"first employee hire, because"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1597.06,"endTime":1599.6299999999999,"body":"you need them to coordinate"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1597.06,"endTime":1599.6299999999999,"body":"all of the other activities."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1599.6399999999999,"endTime":1603.21,"body":"So, either very early, if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1599.6399999999999,"endTime":1603.21,"body":"you're a mostly freelancer"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1603.21,"endTime":1607.3899999999999,"body":"based agency, within 8 to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1603.21,"endTime":1607.3899999999999,"body":"12 people, if it's primarily"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1607.3999999999999,"endTime":1608.73,"body":"full time team members."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1608.91,"endTime":1612.01,"body":"And if you're at 15 to 20 people"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1608.91,"endTime":1612.01,"body":"and don't have a dedicated"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1612.01,"endTime":1615.145,"body":"PM, I'm not saying it's"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1612.01,"endTime":1615.145,"body":"necessarily too late, but get"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1615.145,"endTime":1617.975,"body":"on it and hire a PM very soon."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1618.165,"endTime":1620.325,"body":"I love that sort"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1618.165,"endTime":1620.325,"body":"of scale model as well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1620.5249999999999,"endTime":1623.2649999999999,"body":"And the other bit, and I"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1620.5249999999999,"endTime":1623.2649999999999,"body":"won't make you list all 42"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1623.2649999999999,"endTime":1626.295,"body":"of them, but you did have"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1623.2649999999999,"endTime":1626.295,"body":"that other article about 42"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1626.295,"endTime":1628.905,"body":"ways your project manager"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1626.295,"endTime":1628.905,"body":"saved your agency this week."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1629.115,"endTime":1631.715,"body":"And it kind of, it brought it"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1629.115,"endTime":1631.715,"body":"back to mind because there's"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1631.715,"endTime":1632.7749999999999,"body":"a sort of scale, right?"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1632.835,"endTime":1634.385,"body":"Like just like"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1632.835,"endTime":1634.385,"body":"dollars and cents."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1634.785,"endTime":1636.985,"body":"And where is it going to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1634.785,"endTime":1636.985,"body":"help your profit and help"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1636.985,"endTime":1639.465,"body":"your agency grow and deliver"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1636.985,"endTime":1639.465,"body":"more value to your clients."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1639.805,"endTime":1643.855,"body":"And then there's all of those"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1639.805,"endTime":1643.855,"body":"sort of like, \"invisible\" work"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1643.895,"endTime":1648.024,"body":"of someone's got to, be looking"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1643.895,"endTime":1648.024,"body":"at that project profitability"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1648.145,"endTime":1651.244,"body":"and minding that if it's not"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1648.145,"endTime":1651.244,"body":"you, then you need someone that"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1651.245,"endTime":1653.655,"body":"you can trust to do that, who"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1651.245,"endTime":1653.655,"body":"has a sensibility to do that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1653.665,"endTime":1656.925,"body":"Not just someone who's going"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1653.665,"endTime":1656.925,"body":"to get the tasks done, but"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1656.925,"endTime":1658.295,"body":"still be 80% over budget."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1658.425,"endTime":1661.395,"body":"That might not be the best"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1658.425,"endTime":1661.395,"body":"way for you to kind of create"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1661.395,"endTime":1664.6499999999999,"body":"a sustainable agency and then"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1661.395,"endTime":1664.6499999999999,"body":"it's okay, now we're talking"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1664.6499999999999,"endTime":1667.37,"body":"in terms of we might need a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1664.6499999999999,"endTime":1667.37,"body":"full time project manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1667.6,"endTime":1670.43,"body":"I mean, part of the"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1667.6,"endTime":1670.43,"body":"challenge of being a deputized"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1670.469,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"PM and you can do the best"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1670.469,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"you can and get the training"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1673.2,"endTime":1674.46,"body":"and coaching other support."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1674.62,"endTime":1676.6299999999999,"body":"You're trying to do two"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1674.62,"endTime":1676.6299999999999,"body":"different things at once."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1676.68,"endTime":1679.689,"body":"Typically, you're trying to do"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1676.68,"endTime":1679.689,"body":"the subject matter expert work."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1679.85,"endTime":1682.17,"body":"Or it could be something else"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1679.85,"endTime":1682.17,"body":"within the agency and you're"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1682.17,"endTime":1683.48,"body":"also trying to do the PM."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1683.67,"endTime":1687.56,"body":"That also happens if you're an"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1683.67,"endTime":1687.56,"body":"account manager/project manager."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1688.05,"endTime":1688.96,"body":"It's hard to do both."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1688.999,"endTime":1691.76,"body":"AMs are like, keep the client"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1688.999,"endTime":1691.76,"body":"happy, sell them more work,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1691.8999999999999,"endTime":1693.01,"body":"think about possibilities."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1693.039,"endTime":1695.66,"body":"PMs are more focused on,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1693.039,"endTime":1695.66,"body":"okay, this is the scope."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1695.67,"endTime":1696.77,"body":"We got to get this done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1696.78,"endTime":1699.69,"body":"Rather than, oh, maybe we"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1696.78,"endTime":1699.69,"body":"can upsell them some more."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1699.69,"endTime":1701.41,"body":"It's no, I got to get this done."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1701.56,"endTime":1705.46,"body":"And so the challenge is if"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1701.56,"endTime":1705.46,"body":"you're splitting someone to do"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1705.51,"endTime":1710.24,"body":"AM and PM, they're tending to"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1705.51,"endTime":1710.24,"body":"be good at one or the other."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1710.56,"endTime":1712.68,"body":"They're good at the client"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1710.56,"endTime":1712.68,"body":"relationships, but not"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1712.68,"endTime":1716.71,"body":"necessarily managing the details"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1712.68,"endTime":1716.71,"body":"or they're great at the details,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1716.71,"endTime":1719.58,"body":"but they're not as focused on"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1716.71,"endTime":1719.58,"body":"what does the client need that"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1719.58,"endTime":1721.05,"body":"we haven't figured out already?"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1721.05,"endTime":1722.06,"body":"We're at possibilities."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1722.25,"endTime":1725.0,"body":"Ideally, those are separate"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1722.25,"endTime":1725.0,"body":"roles and you build accordingly."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1725.17,"endTime":1729.22,"body":"But if you've got a deputized"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1725.17,"endTime":1729.22,"body":"PM, give them the tools and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1729.22,"endTime":1731.84,"body":"knowledge they need, including"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1729.22,"endTime":1731.84,"body":"knowing what they don't know."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1732.04,"endTime":1734.6589999999999,"body":"So they're not letting"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1732.04,"endTime":1734.6589999999999,"body":"budget run out the door."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1734.73,"endTime":1735.1399999999999,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1735.149,"endTime":1736.689,"body":"I love that sort of"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1735.149,"endTime":1736.689,"body":"looking at the balance."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1736.69,"endTime":1738.53,"body":"It's not going to be a"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1736.69,"endTime":1738.53,"body":"50/50 split suddenly just"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1738.53,"endTime":1739.34,"body":"because you willed it."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1739.81,"endTime":1741.66,"body":"No, that usually"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1739.81,"endTime":1741.66,"body":"doesn't work too well."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1741.86,"endTime":1742.53,"body":"Super valid."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1742.55,"endTime":1743.1,"body":"Super valid."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1743.46,"endTime":1744.845,"body":"Karl teased it earlier on."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1744.875,"endTime":1748.065,"body":"Yeah, I did bend his arm"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1744.875,"endTime":1748.065,"body":"a little bit, and I got"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1748.065,"endTime":1751.485,"body":"you all a good deal on"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1748.065,"endTime":1751.485,"body":"his course, Agency PM 101."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1751.705,"endTime":1753.985,"body":"So if that course sounded"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1751.705,"endTime":1753.985,"body":"interesting to you, Karl has"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1753.985,"endTime":1757.064,"body":"kindly offered a $100 discount"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1753.985,"endTime":1757.064,"body":"to listeners of the DPM Podcast."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1757.264,"endTime":1760.764,"body":"You can just head over to Karl's"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1757.264,"endTime":1760.764,"body":"Agency 101 PM page, I've linked"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1760.764,"endTime":1764.54,"body":"it in the show notes, and use"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1760.764,"endTime":1764.54,"body":"the discount code \"DPM Podcast\"."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1764.84,"endTime":1765.04,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1765.08,"endTime":1767.21,"body":"That'll automatically save"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1765.08,"endTime":1767.21,"body":"you the hundred dollars and"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1767.21,"endTime":1768.21,"body":"the course is on demand."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1768.22,"endTime":1770.16,"body":"So you can take it"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1768.22,"endTime":1770.16,"body":"at your own pace."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1770.16,"endTime":1772.269,"body":"You could take it"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1770.16,"endTime":1772.269,"body":"in an afternoon."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1772.279,"endTime":1775.22,"body":"You can do it an hour"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1772.279,"endTime":1775.22,"body":"a day for four days."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1775.22,"endTime":1778.239,"body":"You could do it an hour a"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1775.22,"endTime":1778.239,"body":"week over a month or so."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1778.41,"endTime":1779.27,"body":"It's flexible."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1779.27,"endTime":1779.809,"body":"It's up to you."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1779.81,"endTime":1782.19,"body":"It's modular, including"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1779.81,"endTime":1782.19,"body":"some exercises."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1782.41,"endTime":1783.6499999999999,"body":"So hope people find comfort."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1784.09,"endTime":1784.8999999999999,"body":"And I go take it."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1786.5,"endTime":1788.465,"body":"Karl, thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1786.5,"endTime":1788.465,"body":"spending the time with me today."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1788.695,"endTime":1790.645,"body":"Always love your insights,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1788.695,"endTime":1790.645,"body":"and honestly, this"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1790.645,"endTime":1791.305,"body":"has been a lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1791.465,"endTime":1793.045,"body":"Thank you,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1791.465,"endTime":1793.045,"body":"and to everyone listening,"},{"speaker":"Karl Sakas","startTime":1793.075,"endTime":1793.905,"body":"good luck out there."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1795.105,"endTime":1796.2549999999999,"body":"All right"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1795.105,"endTime":1796.2549999999999,"body":"folks, there you have it."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1796.415,"endTime":1798.494,"body":"As always, if you'd like to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1796.415,"endTime":1798.494,"body":"join the conversation with"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1798.494,"endTime":1800.924,"body":"over a thousand like-minded"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1798.494,"endTime":1800.924,"body":"project management champions,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1801.135,"endTime":1802.095,"body":"come join our collective."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1802.404,"endTime":1805.565,"body":"Head over to"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1802.404,"endTime":1805.565,"body":"thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1805.635,"endTime":1806.155,"body":"to learn more."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1806.495,"endTime":1808.295,"body":"And if you like what you"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1806.495,"endTime":1808.295,"body":"heard today, please subscribe"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1808.295,"endTime":1811.0149999999999,"body":"and stay in touch on"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1808.295,"endTime":1811.0149999999999,"body":"thedigitalprojectmanager.com."},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1811.305,"endTime":1812.805,"body":"Until next time,"},{"speaker":"Galen Low","startTime":1811.305,"endTime":1812.805,"body":"thanks for listening."}]}