The Digital Project Manager

The Retro: How to Negotiate a Raise as a PM (And Actually Get It)

• Galen Low and Kelsey Alpaio

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When it comes to getting paid what you’re worth, project managers in 2025 are facing a unique challenge: job switching no longer guarantees a big raise, and most PMs are staying put—even if they feel underpaid. So what now? In this episode, Kelsey Alpaio sits down with Mukhtar Kadiri, Pam Butkowski, and Elaina Martinez to talk real strategies for negotiating a raise where you are—with confidence, clarity, and without burning bridges.

You’ll hear honest takes on why PMs feel undercompensated, how the market has shifted, and what leaders actually want to hear in raise conversations. From mapping your invisible impact to understanding company timing cycles and navigating tough “no’s,” this panel brings practical, actionable insights for anyone ready to make the ask—and get results.

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Kelsey Alpaio:

My name is Kelsey Alpaio. I'm the executive editor for The Digital Project Manager. And today's session will focus on how to use your PM skills to negotiate a raise in 2025. And we will be speaking with some of the top voices and thought leaders in this space. Mukhtar specializes in helping people land 100-300K PM roles. With his expertise in career coaching, job search strategies, and project program management, he revamps your approach, showcases your unique value, and helps you overcome the obstacles holding you back so that you can land the role you want and get paid what you're worth. And we have Pam, a seasoned digital delivery leader and current SVP at Horizontal Digital. With two decades of experience scaling teams and driving strategy at firms like Hero Digital and Wunderman Thompson, she blends Agile Mastery with executive level insight to help PMs thrive in complex, cross-functional environments. And we have Elaina, who also works at Horizontal Digital, alongside Pam as a senior program delivery lead. She specializes in orchestrating digital transformations across UX/UI, brand strategy, agile development, data and analytics, and marketing technology. And she facilitates collaboration across high performing teams to ensure they nail the vision within timeline and budget. Let's get into our topic for today. At some point in your career, you have probably heard the advice, "If you wanna make more money, just get a new job." And for a long time that actually worked. Job hopping was one of the best ways to boost your paycheck, but that's really not the case anymore. So in 2023, the median pay bump for job switchers was 7.7% compared to 5.6% for those who stayed in their roles. Now it's 4.8% for switchers and 4.6% for stairs. So basically the same salary bump if you stay or leave. So at the same time, most project managers aren't loving their current compensation. So as I mentioned, we just released our 2025 salary guide. And according to the data we collected from 600 plus PMs around the world, 65% of PMs don't think they're paid fairly. But they're also not leaving their jobs. So about 62% of our respondents also said they're planning to stay in their current roles this year. So what do you do when the job market's shaky? You're doing great work, but your paycheck doesn't reflect it. You figure out how to grow where you are, right? You learn how to ask for what you deserve, and that is what we're here to talk about today. How to ask for that raise and actually get it. So I do wanna back up a little bit here and get our panelists perspectives on that data from our salary guide. So I mentioned, according to our report, 65% of respondents said they don't feel like they're paid fairly. And I'm wondering what are some of the factors that you think are contributing to that disconnect? Mukhtar, do you wanna get us started here?

Mukhtar Kadiri:

Yeah. I think that there are a couple of things at the risk of sounding like a politician, I think that things are getting expensive. The cost of living is rising. Wages haven't quite kept up, and I think that maybe another factor is that many people actually got jobs when, maybe a couple of years ago when the economy was a bit different, right? So I think that, on average, people tend to switch jobs maybe within three to five years. So for many people, maybe now is that time for them to switch. They came in at when the economy was quite good. Salaries were different then and now they want to actually switch and change to a different job. I think, just to, I know I ramble a bit, but I think just to quickly summarize, I think there are a couple of things in the number one wage just haven't quite kept up. Cost of reason has improved and I think many people started out, they got their jobs maybe a couple of years back when the economy was still different.

Kelsey Alpaio:

That makes sense, Pam? Yeah. Why don't you jump in here?

Pam Butkowski:

I think yes to all of that. And just to hone in on that second one a little bit more, especially in the digital space, especially in project management, the economy was a different thing a few years ago. However, for us specifically, especially over the pandemic, we saw a rise in digital project management roles and needs, right? Companies were investing in digital. They had to, when we went completely remote. We focused more on things like e-comm. We focused more on digital experiences and how to stay connected to customers, even in a completely remote world, right? And so there was a higher demand, which then meant higher salaries for digital PMs over the pandemic. Now we're leveling out, right? And so I think when we're talking specifically about how PMs. Feeling that they're being paid unfairly. I think a lot of it does too, have to relate to what we were being paid and what the market looked like specifically for our roles. A few years back, the need has started to level out a little bit,

Kelsey Alpaio:

absolutely. Elaina, what's your perspective on all of this?

Elaina Martinez:

Yeah, I would echo that. I think as a PM, I think the additional cost that has been added over the course of the years for returning into the office, right? Like when we start to look at, I. Even just within the last five years being fully remote or having more of that flexibility, now companies are asking us to come back. So that is increasing just our daily, the daily grind. We're back to that pre COVID era, the cost of parking, the gas, the wear and tear, but also the physical wear and tear on us. Of that additional time. And it does take a different kind of energy from us. So I think that could also be adding to the, what's feeling taxing for us is not only the financial aspect of it, but then the physical of now I'm going into an office four to five days a week. That's extra exhausting on top of maybe some of the economic concerns with salaries, keeping up with cost of living. So I think combining those things and yeah, I can understand why that percentage is so high.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the second part of this is what makes all of that so interesting, which is that 62% number, that 62% of respondents also said they're planning to stay in their current role, despite a lot of those pressures and those feelings of not being fairly compensated. And so I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on why PMs are still reluctant to leave their jobs right now and are those concerns warranted? Elaina, do you wanna get us started there?

Elaina Martinez:

Yeah. I can understand the concerns, right? Just with the nature of the businesses that we're in, the market that we're in. I think it's probably across industries where people are reluctant to go be the new person at another company. Right now, I think for myself or for others that have been in this position, that does increase the anxiety as you're like the market's not great. I don't wanna feel like I'm starting over right now. Even if my salary isn't what I want it to be, at least I have some tenure here and you have a little, you feel a little bit safer perhaps, just staying where you are and trying to hunker down. I think one trait that I've seen across our, project management industry is that we're loyal people. I think PMs tend to get very invested in the work and the projects, and I think that tends to keep some of us in places maybe a little bit longer than we'd like to salary wise.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. Mukhtar, I know you work really closely with folks who are looking for new jobs. Are you seeing this as a trend that people are a little bit more reluctant to look for something new? Or what fears are you seeing from clients?

Mukhtar Kadiri:

Yeah, no I see that as well, but I think I'm in a bit of a different position in that like a lot of times people come to me when they've decided that they wanna find that next thing, right? I think that a lot of people, it's very understandable that a lot of people don't wanna, jeopardize their employment. They don't want to be the new person. But I still do see in this market people still making a move and it was still increasing their pay. Like just last week, somebody that we worked with. Got like a 20 K increase a couple of weeks ago. I've seen somebody get a 70 5K increase. So it's a tough market, but I think that people are still making the pay jump, yeah.

Kelsey Alpaio:

That's definitely good to hear. Pam, do you have anything to add to this as well?

Pam Butkowski:

No, again, I mean I agree with both Elaina and Mukhtar. I think that the other thing too, just to layer onto what Elaina was saying, it is scary starting something new and PMs do have a lot of loyalty to everything, right? That's just who we are at heart. But we also see what's happening on LinkedIn right now. We see what's happening in the market and we see open to work banners and we are going through just where the economy is. Not to make this the theme of the day, but where things are right now. Like it is harder to find a job than it was a few years ago. And people who like companies are going through harder times than we were over the last few years, which if you have a stable position, maybe sometimes that is not the worst thing, so I think that PMs are also feeling like something is better than nothing right now too.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. I do think the theme of the day a little bit is the economy and the market, but.

Pam Butkowski:

I don't remember my said it. I was like, I take it back that it's a theme.

Kelsey Alpaio:

It's okay. It can be the theme, even though it's a big bummer, a bummer theme of the day. But yeah, that really launches us, I think, into the meat of what we wanna get into today, which is, if you're not looking for a new job, if you're not looking to change where you're going, but you're also not happy with what you're getting paid, asking for a raise is one of the most direct paths to salary growth. But that's not to say it's easy, especially in this market, especially with our theme of the day. So Elaina, I was wondering if we could start with you. I know you have experience with this. You've asked for raises in the past and you've been successful in landing them. So in your experience, what is the right way to initiate this conversation?

Elaina Martinez:

It's a great question. I've also, I've had success and earlier on in my career, I've failed at this also because I didn't really have a good strategy with it. I think. The number one thing is I wouldn't spring it on your manager. I think where I have found success is that there had been some foundation of conversation about it. There had been some transparency. I think springing it on your manager or a superior is gonna catch them off guard, right? Like you should have some transparent conversations about. Where you're at and work together to figure it out as opposed to, Hey, I'm throwing this at you. It's a bit of an ultimatum. I don't think that always lands well. I think just being more transparent. Hopefully you have a good rapport with your manager to where you guys are able to start some groundwork. That's where I have had success. Pam and I have worked together in other places, and I think that was really the flow was that we were able to transparently talk about it and say, Hey, I. This is not aligned now with the workload that I have, and she agreed. We worked together to figure it out. I think where I have failed at it in my earlier career was maybe being a little bit more reactionary and not being prepared for the conversation, right? You get the sense of it's not fair, but you aren't really prepared for it. You haven't really done your homework. That's not gonna set you up to look as though you've done your homework and that you're coming with. A solution because you wanna be invested at the company. So I think just going into that with that mindset of, I wanna be here, this is what's gonna help keep me because I wanna stay and continue to add value to the team.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. And Pam, as someone who has been on the other end of that conversation, I wanna talk about the scenarios where you have said yes, where the person asking gets that raise. What are some of the things that you look for during those conversations?

Pam Butkowski:

Not feelings. That's a big thing, right? Make sure it's rooted in facts and proof. And like Elaina said, be prepared and do your research and understand and be ready to articulate the areas in which you're thriving, in which you're exceeding expectations that you're just knocking out of the park anywhere. You can point it back to a job description, to role expectations, to things that have been laid out as far as what's expected of you in your current position. And if you're showing that you're hitting all of the boxes, not just checking them but exceeding them, you're gonna be more primed. I will also say, understand your company and when is the right time to ask for these. Some companies have really dedicated windows where we do raises, where we do promotions, and it's a non-starter outside of those windows. If that's the case at the organization that you're at, just like Elaina said, start those conversations early and say, when we get to January in the raise window or whenever it is, I'm gonna wanna talk about what that number looks like. Let's start talking about it now. I know that it's August, but start doing the legwork now and start preparing for those conversations so that you're not catching your manager by surprise. In a lot of cases, the person that you're asking for a raise from is not the person who actually holds the budgets, right? They're gonna have to go have more conversations as well. So give them time and space to do that.

Kelsey Alpaio:

I agree. I think that's really great advice is just really starting that conversation super early, planting the seeds before you even really make and ask. And Mukhtar, as someone who helps PMs land high paying roles. What are some of the things that you advise your clients to say when negotiating, when asking for more money? Is there a script or certain things that you should say that tend to help people land those higher salaries?

Mukhtar Kadiri:

There are a couple of things. I think before we get to what to say, I think the mindset is very important, right? A lot of times I usually try to remind people that when you're negotiating with somebody in the company, you are on the same side and it's not like you're negotiating with a car salesperson because I think, I dunno, for some reason, a lot of times when we negotiate, we tend to adopt this adversarial type of negotiation. It's me versus you, but you want to keep that relationship, we are on the same side of the table and the thing on the other side of the table is a mutual goal. So how can we both work together to get there? So that's one of the mindset shifts that I try to inculcate in, in the people that I work with. The second is just whatever happens. Keep three things in mind. Be grateful, be excited, and be clear on what your asks are. I think no matter what happens, because negotiations can get personal. Just recently I was helping somebody negotiate and she actually got upset because I think she went in. She's been laid off. She's been looking for a job, and then she got this job after a while, and the understanding was that she applied for a senior role. They gave her an offer, but then the recruiter now got on a call with her and said, okay, you know what? We think that you don't have that many experience, so we wanted to actually put you at a junior role. This was a negotiation tactic, 'cause I do this a lot of time, but I knew it was a negotiation actic. But she took it personally and she got upset about it, which is very understandable. And then it shook about, we're able to work through that and we're able to, still help her land a very good package. But the point I'm trying to make here is if you really go into a negotiation with those three things in mind, you're gonna be grateful, be excited, but be clear. So it's because you're gonna be working with these people, so it's I'm so excited. This means a lot. I knew that you had so many other people, but thank you for choosing me. I'm so excited. This is what I'm gonna bring to the table. Just given my experience, just like what Pam and I mentioned, you mentioned the top three things that you bring to the table. Just given my experience, I can do X, I can do Y, I can do z. I believe that this is what makes sense for this role. And I think when you do it like that. A couple of things would happen. Like you, you're not gonna rob people the wrong way. And secondly, I think even as PMs, it is expected that you negotiate, right? Because that is, it's part and parcel of your job, right? You're gonna negotiate. So you've been able to display those skills, I think would also look good for you. And a lot of times when you do that, like I've never had an offer rescinded in my, years of doing this. I've never had any offer rescinded. But I think when you do it that way, like you keep your mind at it. Both of you want something that can work for both of you, and then you are grateful, you're excited, and you are clear. I think that usually results in positive results. Yeah.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Pam, did you have something you wanted to add?

Pam Butkowski:

Yeah, just layering on a little bit there. I think all of that advice is really sound, and I think that what you said about organizations are expecting negotiations. That is absolutely true in the offer stage, when when you get a new offer to start a new position, a hundred percent true. Absolutely negotiate. We're expecting it during the raise cycle. I would say every organization is different. Some organizations are willing to negotiate and have a slush fund for those negotiations around raise windows and some they are locked and there is really no negotiating. And so I would say understand what is possible within your organization, and that's why it's so important to have those conversations early. Before any kind of a raise, cycle or window happens, because if there is no chance for negotiation, you're outta luck. So make sure you understand if that's a process or an opportunity that you have in kind of those set cycles.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Absolutely. What should you be preparing as part of that, homework before you make the ask? Is it the impact of your work industry Benchmarks? How far in advance did you start preparing? So Elaina, can you jump in here and tell us a little bit more about the prep?

Elaina Martinez:

Yeah, for sure. I'm glad you asked this because I think when we talk about homework, it can sound a little bit ambiguous in my mind and how I've done this and how I've helped my team do this is really understand your own story. I think that's the most important step is you can't assume that your manager or any superior or even your teammates can see. All of that invisible value that PMs offer every single day. We're doing so much behind the scenes that is not always out front. It's not always the sexiest work, but we're adding a ton of value that isn't gonna get talked about, right? So you have to know your story. I think taking some time, even if you did it over the course of two weeks, to just try it out. Jot down notes if you can find 30 minutes a day or do it on a weekly basis. I know that adding work on our plates is really tough. I think just getting in that habit of keeping track of that at a project basis. If it's a week over week, like really whatever level of fidelity you have time for, but get those metrics. Even if you're just jotting things down, you can go back and look at what are the themes that are emerging. I'm really good at this thing that keeps coming up in my notes, value adds. How you're resolving risks, how you're blocking and tackling, right? All of it. Just start dumping that on a, again, whatever cadence is available to you, to just start to tell that story, right? Again, don't assume anyone can see what you're up to every day. I think when we talk about the data and making a data informed ask, I could go to Pam and say, I wanna make $400,000, and I have now set us both up for a very disappointing conversation, right? I think understanding your market value tools like Glassdoor or other, DPM tools help you understand where do you fall, what is even within the realm of your seniority where you live. Like you have to show some awareness around the ask. Otherwise, it's gonna. Again, going back to that feelings versus facts, right? You wanna show that you have that awareness, you've done your homework. So I think once you have some of those foundational data points, the story emerges. Like I said, you can look back and go, I'm really killing it in this area. Start to tell the story around that. And I think too, we tend to only socialize to our managers our successes. I think one thing that as PMs we can do is socialize those successes. Really across the organization. I want Pam's boss to also think I'm killing it, right? So what is the visibility across the organization? Or if you're a PM that's embedded with creative technology, whoever you're working with, servicing the team wins, right? So it's not just your own story, but what is your entire team crushing it? Help them surface their wins. That just continues to spread. Those success metrics throughout your entire team. And then they go, wow, that project was really successful. I'm hearing a lot of people talk about it. Who led that project? Oh, led that project, right? And just having these multiple streams of where your work is getting talked about, I think is really critical. So it's not just going up to your funnel, your manager, but make your successes known. Obviously you wanna be tactful with that and read the room, but. I think it's, again, it all comes back to really knowing your story, be comfortable talking about it, and you leverage those one-on-ones. I have one-on-ones with my team, Pam, and I have one-on-ones. Those are strategic times throughout the week where I. You know, Pam doesn't want a status report rattled off to her of what I'm up to on my projects, unless there's something in particular she wants to know. That is our time for me to talk to her about where my head's at, what are the strategic things that I'm got rattling in my head, or things that I wanna run by her, or, Hey, I did this awesome thing. What do you think about it? And just get comfortable with those conversations. I think that goes a long way. And again, to the timing aspect of it. To Pam's point, sometimes there's times throughout the year where it's like end of year review, but I think doing this throughout the year and just setting that stage, again, no surprises. You shouldn't get to the end of the year and go, I expected a promotion or a raise, and have that be a surprise to your boss. So again, get comfortable with that. Know your story, know your data. Figure out how you can start to track that throughout your work. That's where that project management skill comes in is being able to do that for yourself too.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. I love that the understand your own story and socialize those wins. I feel like those are some great takeaways there. Pam, what would you add here to this prep work?

Pam Butkowski:

Yeah, I think on the other side of the table, from the leadership perspective, Elaina's exactly right. Talk about this early, talk about it often. No surprises. I'll say some of the conversations that Elaina and I have aren't even about her, right? The she'll bring things like, I know that this person on my team is going to ask for this. I know that this person who reports into me is ready for a promotion. They're feeling like they're ready or they're ready for a raise. They believe that they're under compensated and then we'll start having those conversations and strategizing about it as well at a leadership level. So when I said earlier, sometimes the person you're talking to about getting a raise isn't the person who actually makes the decision about the raise that you're getting. So those are some of the conversations that Elaina and I have about her team members too. So the earlier and like as much runway you can give to have those conversations or give space for those conversations, the better. From a leadership perspective, when we talk about do your homework and do your prep work and bring things to the table showing that you deserve this raise. The onus to give kind of tools to do that is really on leadership. I think that it's my responsibility as the leader of our project management team at Horizontal to clearly set expectations for the team on what good looks like. What does success in your role look like? And I think ask if you don't have those kinds of materials, if you don't understand what success in your current role looks like tactically, I don't mean I don't know. Know it when I see it, right? That's not what I mean. A sheet of paper that says, here are the clear expectations over a variety of different areas in your role. If that doesn't exist, ask the question. If you've never seen that, ask what's expected of you? I think the same is true for pay bans. If you haven't seen pay bans for your organization, it's okay to ask if they exist. Some organizations don't communicate those publicly, but you don't know if you don't ask, it's okay to ask the question, or it's okay to ask if you can see the pay bans for your organization. Totally fair question. The answer might be no, and that's okay, but it's okay to ask that. But if you don't have the data that you need or the tools that you need to write your own story. Ask for them.

Mukhtar Kadiri:

100%. You should get clarity on what success looks like. I don't want to add to that.'Cause sometimes, or a lot of times as US PMs, we end up coming to places where there's a lot of chaos and there's not a lot of processes, right? So sometimes instead of just, asking and waiting for you to be given that sometimes you can actually write down what you think success looks like and then get alignment from a manager. Because what I found, in my. Almost 15 years of being a PM is that a lot of times, you have to guide leadership sometimes as to what success looks like. Like they also look to you for guidance. Don't hesitate to put that on paper and then get alignment from leadership.

Kelsey Alpaio:

I've worked in a lot of vibe organizations where you don't know the pay bands, you don't know what success looks like. You don't have core competencies, you're just like going off vibes. But I love the simple advice of just ask the question because maybe those things exist and they just haven't been communicated yet. That does lead into my next question for you, Mukhtar, which is, if you don't have those things, or maybe if your role doesn't have more traditional metrics that you can point to show your value, what is the best way to find your story and tell your story and make that impact visible? Do you have advice there?

Mukhtar Kadiri:

I think that revenue is one of the easiest metrics. The other thing, just going back to what Pam and Elaina said, is just really aligning with your leadership. One thing that I like to do is I usually like to see what's really keeping my boss up at night. What is the most important thing to know? What are their frustrations, not just in with just pain, like what is really frustrating them, and I try to tie what I do to that. I'll give you an example. One time I was tasked with leading a platform migration project, right? And this was at a software company. So like platform is like just underground work, so people don't really know what we do, right? So it's like infrastructure. Even engineers don't quite know what we do, right? But this company wanted to go from a hundred million dollars a year to $400 million a year. In order for them to do that, the platform needed to be robust and needed to be able to scale, right? So where I came in was now I understood where they wanted to go, and then I put myself and our project as a piece in the puzzle for them to get to where they want to go to, right? So there was no revenue tied to my project out to the migration, but doing my project would enable them to actually get to where they want to get to. So I think sometimes we need to look for the second order effect, right? That's one example. Like it's not always easy to tie your, what you're doing to, to revenue, you also have like time save metrics, efficiency gain. But I think that one of the things that you can do is to first look at what's really important to your boss, what's important to your boss's boss, and then find a way to tie what you're doing to that.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, I love that. Figuring out what's keeping them up at night and tying your story and your ass to that. I do wanna talk a little bit more about timing, which I know I believe both Pam and Mukhtar. You talked a little bit about the timing of that ask. So are there better points in the year or project lifecycle to make that ask if you don't have specific windows? And also thinking about like the timing of just 20, 25 as a year, that has lots of absolutely wild things happening in it. How should we be thinking about timing when making this ask? Pam, can you get us started here?

Pam Butkowski:

We've already talked quite a bit about understanding when your organizations give out raises, if that's standardized, if there is opportunity for raises, ad hoc or not. So I won't drain that one anymore 'cause we've already covered it. I think there are some other timing considerations though for sure. I'll speak specifically for the agency space because. If your pipeline is dry, if you're not winning a lot of work right now, if people are stressed about revenue and sales, probably not the right time to ask for more money. If you are coming off of a bunch of big wins and the forecast is looking good for the year, and you specifically contributed to those wins in any way, that is your moment. But read the room if we're stressed about forecast or revenue for the rest of the year. Not only, and I'll be totally blunt here, not only are you probably not gonna get a raise if you ask for it, you're gonna get a little bit of a reputation of not being able to read the room. So I think it's really important to understand not only, yes, where you are in relation to other salary benchmarks, what the value that like build your story, but knowing the right time and place to tell your story is really important.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Yeah, absolutely. Specifically about if your company does have those timing windows, but because of, I don't know, layoffs or shifts in the organization, you're asked to take on more responsibility. Is that an appropriate time to ask for a raise or should you wait for that next compensation review window?

Elaina Martinez:

That's a tough one, but it's also a really likely scenario right in the landscape that we're in. I would consider that. A soft open for let's at least have the conversation, right? A layoff has occurred or the company's going through a tough time. I think just laying that groundwork and making me ask to understand, is this additional responsibility going to lead me to a promotion, a raise? Help me understand that. But I think too, something for us to think about is what are the alternate asks, right? If the financials are, it's not the right time for that. There might be some other creative conversation you can have with your manager to say, I know that right now is not a good time in the finances. Can we talk about. Maybe suggest some things for a better work-life balance for yourself. Hey, I'd like to work from home one extra day, or Let's get creative with how we negotiate at least those interim solutions. If it's not the right time to talk about monetary value, maybe it's an extra PTO day. Something like, what can you think of that is going to help improve the quality of your life in that short term, I think is important for us to. Get a little bit creative in our asks.'cause your boss might be like, heck yeah, I can give you eight hours, another eight hours of PTO. No problem. Or just give them some alternate things to say yes to.

Kelsey Alpaio:

I love that advice and it leads in perfectly to this next part of the conversation, which is what if you do get a no. and Mukhtar, if the answer is not right now, what should you try to do next? Do you try again in six months? Do you just try to start making moves? Elsewhere and trying to get that higher salary somewhere else. Are there other things that you should be asking for? Do you have thoughts there?

Mukhtar Kadiri:

Yeah, no, for sure. I think Elaina made such a good point. I usually tell, like the people that I work with, that there's so many things that you can ask for. Don't just fixate on salary, right? So for example, it could be. PTO like Elaina mentioned, it could also be things like maybe l and d budget, right? Because sometimes what happens is that there's a different budget for salary and a different budget for other things, right? It could be even your title.'cause sometimes getting that title is setting you up for the next level and for maybe even your next career outside of the company. I think to answer your question, if you get a no, I think it depends on the kind of no.'cause we all know there are different types of, no, there is no way. They're just stringing you along. I. And then there is a no where it's okay, look, really my hands are tied. I'm gonna fight for you. And I've had both, scenarios. So I think if it's the know where it's okay, maybe now is not the right time, then you can see if there are alternatives. Okay, besides pay are the other things that we can do right now. If it's a nowhere they're stringing you along, then I think that you have to make that decision. And like in my case, I can give an example of where it is. Like I was asking for a raise. Every time I was exceeding expectations, I was at the highest. I had the highest score, but then there was always, one story or the other. I even tried doing lateral moves. I even tried doing downward moves and then, still nothing. And then I decided I was gonna go external and even before I went external. Like I think one thing that maybe you know, the audience will relate to is that even someone in the courage to ask for a raise like that takes a lot. So to now be met with a rejection like that could affect your confidence, right? So you need to prepare mentally. So you can imagine doing this several times in a four year period and still not getting the raise. So I think at some point you need to draw the line somewhere and say, okay, I think if this is not working, I really love this company. I believe in the mission, but I need to take care of number one. So that's what happened. And then when I went externally, the market started to confirm my value, and then my confidence started to increase again. And one thing led to another and then. I ended up getting, landing another company with a significant raise, which was about 60,000. So I think it's fine, but to stay in your company. But when you know if it's the know that they're just stringing you along, I think at some point you have to make the decision on moving to another place.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Absolutely. So I wanna get into some questions from the audience because we have some awesome ones today. This one from Diana, I think is really pertinent here. How can I even think about talking to my boss about a pay raise when our department staff was slashed and doesn't look like it's going to get better? I do much more than PM work, so it can get frustrating as I know I have earned it. I have built my case. Pam, can you jump in here and tell Diana a little bit about how to approach this?

Pam Butkowski:

I have two thoughts. The first one is the crappy one, and the second one is productive. Is now might just not be the time based on your org. Again, going back to reading the room if your PM team was just slashed, the company's going through a tough time right now, there is a very good chance that leadership might say, you should just feel lucky to be here right now, which is the crappy thought right now. The more productive thought. I would say if you are doing things that go much beyond the expectations of a PM, maybe there's a conversation to be had there, not just about money, but about role, about I'm taking on client service or account management responsibilities, or I'm taking on BA responsibilities, or whatever it is, and maybe there's some kind of a hybrid role that you could move into that then has salary that accompanies it. But. I would say think creatively about the actual work that you're doing, and don't say, I'm doing a lot more than what's expected of me. Instead say, I'm taking on these responsibilities from this department and I wanna talk about a hybrid position. If this is gonna stay this way, long term, right? At a minimum, that opens up a conversation for, no, this is a short term thing, and then it's gonna go back to normal. And then you know that's what's gonna happen in the future. If it is gonna be a long-term thing, then you have a door open to talk about your role progression and what this means for your title and your compensation long-term.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Elaina, do you have anything to add there as well?

Elaina Martinez:

I would echo what Pam said. I think unfortunately people are gonna hear some nos and like we have talked about the nos suck. I think from there it's thinking about what your game plan is gonna be after. What are you gonna do when you hear the no. Even if this hybrid title approach doesn't quite work out, what can we do next? And I think it's just a very real conversation to have with yourself about what is the line. How long can you go without this being addressed, especially if you're doing the work of more than one person. We wanna stay where we are, but you gotta take care of yourself like Mutar said, and just have a very transparent conversation with yourself about how long you're willing to wait for that. And it might just honestly be the time to start making those small steps towards a different role outside of that organization. So that's the bummer element of it, is it might just be time to start. Prepping to leave, which nobody loves the job hunt, but it could just be the reality, unfortunately.

Mukhtar Kadiri:

If I can add to that I think, you know what Pam and Elaina said are spot on. Maybe it's not even just waiting until you get the know, you can just start maybe just keeping your options open from right now and, still working the internal angle because you never know. Just keeping your options open and as somebody who. Is very engaged in the LinkedIn community. I think we have a fantastic PM community on LinkedIn. So you can just start contributing to the conversation. And I think that now that you have this additional responsibility, like there's more than you can actually contribute, right? So I think that this can possibly even set you up for that next big thing outside of your company. Not saying that you should move, but I'm saying you know, don't need to wait until you get a no to start exploring options outside.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Okay. We have another great question from Evan that I think does tie into this a little bit. Evan says, I'm in a contract role, but conversion has been dangled a few times when I pulled on this string. However, with multiple directors and senior managers, all answers have been exceedingly meial and dead ends. Sorry. I have another year on my contract, and the cost of living has already gone up so much. It feels like I'm being shut out. Would love a hot take.

Mukhtar Kadiri:

Just speaking from experience, I know I can be cynical sometimes, but I feel like you should just keep your options open. You can still continue to pursue that internal angle, but I think that, you should still consider the external option. I. For me, what that would do for me is that it would also just increase my confidence because like I mentioned before, it's like just that constant dangling something, it could just feel like gaslighting, and it's like I think that, just considering the external option too is something that I would do to just keep my sanity, but that's my take.

Elaina Martinez:

One thing I would just add to that, I've done contract work and consultant work in a past life. Actually, horizontal has a recruiting side of the house, and I actually was a consultant for them years ago. One of the things that was critical for me in the contract work was making sure that the rate that I was asking for really helped account for the lack of the benefits, the lack of PTO. It might be a position where you're locked into a rate at this point, maybe something to consider for your next run is what is the rate? Needed in order to help bridge those gaps between the lack of PTO and benefits so that you can stay comfortable, stay competitive if you continue to do contract work, as opposed to relying on the FTE, which sometimes just doesn't always convert.

Pam Butkowski:

The only thing that I would add to that is really understand, understand reflecting why you want to be converted to FTE if it is purely for pay, probably the wrong reason. The reality is that you likely will get more contracting if you are doing it consistently because the company doesn't carry the burden of benefits or paying time off or right. All of those things. If it is for security, that is a different thing for long-term job security. Absolutely. You should be continuing to fight for it. So I think understanding why you want to convert to FTE is a really important clarification and something that you should reflect on. Sometimes converting to FTE does not make you more money. It makes you a little bit less, but you get the security, you get benefits, you get paid time off, you get all of the benefits that you wouldn't get as a contractor. So understand why you're asking for it.

Kelsey Alpaio:

Great. Thank you for that insight there. And this is a great question from Karen that I think would be good for you, Pam. I have been concerned before about asking for a raise because they may think I'm leaving. Is that even a real concern? Have you ever had that thought when someone comes to you asking for a raise that you think they're on the verge of leaving?

Pam Butkowski:

Yep. Frankly, that's my first thought. So it's important to say I am not in a place where I'm looking. I am not unhappy here. However, I am always going to advocate for myself. Make sure when you have that conversation I don't want people to not have that conversation because the first thing I'm gonna think is that you're leaving. Just start the conversation with, I'm not looking, I'm not planning to leave. I love it here. However, I need to advocate for myself and so I'm gonna ask the questions and we're gonna have a conversation about it. I just need to hear it that you're not leaving. That's all I need. But if you don't say that and you don't make it clear what your intention with the conversation is, or what the alternate options are for you, if it doesn't go the way that you want it to go, we are gonna assume the worst. I wish I could tell you we didn't, but we will. So just be clear about what your intentions are and what happens if you don't get what you want.

Elaina Martinez:

I think it's important in that scenario to, like Pam is saying, to be very clear, right? I've been on both sides of this, and I think as a manager, when someone is come to me and delivering a ultimatum, or it's in the spirit of, like Akhtar was saying at the beginning, it's not we're on the same team. It's more of an us versus them. That just changes the nature of the conversation and I think puts everyone on their back heel and I don't know that's what you want. I think coming into it, being collaborative, being willing to get creative about what those solutions are gonna be is going to put everyone at ease and then is probably a quicker path towards you getting some success in the conversation, whether that's monetary or otherwise. So it's a lot to do with how you approach that. I think just being very prepared for what that's going to mean afterwards. Again, just get very clear on your intentions.

Mukhtar Kadiri:

Just to add to what Pam and Elaina said, like one of the, I think one thing that has really helped me is always addressing the elephant. How this came up for you. Okay, I don't want 'em to think this extend that exercise. What else do you think will come up for them? What are some of the fears? And Chad can very good with this. So just name the elephant, like address all of that. So whatever you think that they're gonna think, I'm not trying to leave. I'm really happy here. All of that, just name that and express that. And I think that, that really helps you to communicate well.

Pam Butkowski:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that maybe we haven't talked about much and now feels like the right time before we close really understand what you're asking for. If you're asking for a raise and you don't get it, then what, what is your next option? Do you need to start looking for something else? And the answer might be different for everyone, right? Like sometimes you'll wanna if it's a no, you'll wanna say, what does the runway look like? What could I have done differently to make this a yes? Today, it's okay to ask those questions, right? If you, and I can't say this directly enough, if you tell your organization that if you don't get a raise, you are leaving and then you don't leave, that will be your reputation. The worst thing you can do in any request for compensation is make empty threats. That's not helpful to you. It's not helpful to the org. We've hammered on this, and so I'll just drive it home, be collaborative, work together to find a solution that gets both you and your org to a place that makes everybody happy. Don't make empty threats and don't come in defensive. It's not gonna end well.

Kelsey Alpaio:

I love that. I think that's a great place to end here. Thank you to our panelists for volunteering your time today. Panelists, this was so much fun, so insightful. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us here today.