The Amaiz Podcast: David Gluckman talks Product & Branding

“Author of “That sh*t will never sell” and with a book title like that, you know you’re in for punchy insight from David Gluckman. As he says, “Creating brands is not a democracy”

What does that mean? Find the answer and far more in this fascinating chat with the product and brand development specialist. David takes us through his incredible experience, working through the heyday of consumer culture. Discover why words are underused and why making a statement is essential. From market analysis to formulating thoughts, David shares examples of what to do and what not to do. Don’t rush to complete market research before you listen to this. Contains straight-talking and mild swearing - just look at the book title!

Transcript

The Amaiz Podcast - David Gluckman

SPEAKERS

Jake Shaw, David Gluckman

 Davis talks about how to develop products form one word and how product and brand development is not a democracy.

 Jake Shaw  00:01

Hello and welcome to the amaze podcast where we talk to businesses large and small experts in subjects across a spectrum of business entrepreneurial ism tech, innovation, investment and finance. I'm Jake Shaw, your host. If you'd like to learn more about Amaiz, please go to www.amaiz.com 

Jake Shaw  00:23

David Gluckman  00:49

Good morning, too good to be here.

Jake Shaw  00:51

David, you started off life working in advertising in South Africa, I believe and then moved to London, where you and I know I'm potting a great deal of history here. But you ended up running your own product development agency where you developed a specialism in the food and drink sector. Is that correct?

David Gluckman  01:10

Yes, it is. I started in advertising. If you want some of the background as I was an account executive in advertising, I did it for 10 years, and I was never very happy with it. I always wanted to perform a creative function. And the only way I could do that, at the age of about 30 was to create a new job for myself, I suggested to me that we set up a brand development department, which I should run and that gave me the opportunity to exercise what creative skills I had

Jake Shaw  01:41

This was when in your career.

David Gluckman  01:43

I started in 1959. And I transferred to product development 10 years later in 69,

Jake Shaw  01:52

you have actually been in the area of brand and product development through the heyday of the consumer culture, would that be a correct assumption?

David Gluckman  02:03

Yeah, I'll accept that 

Jake Shaw  02:05

I want to sort of kind of start where you are now and then break down some of the processes that you use as a brand and product development specialist, you and I spoke about a particular peanut butter brand, you told me about how the product had used some of the terminology, and some of the kind of ideas that one would draw from coffee roasting. So take me through some of that

David Gluckman  02:28

I saw an ad for this peanut butter on LinkedIn. It's called Manilife, and Mani means peanuts in Argentinian. And I looked at the pack. And what it did was it talked about it being deep roasted for a richer flavour. And I thought here, it's making a sell to me off the package. And I hadn't even thought about peanut butter for the previous 20 years. And I was very excited to know that he has somebody actually trying to make a claim about peanut butter that I'd never heard before. So I immediately went on to Amazon spent 12 pounds on a great big tub of the stuff. And it really lived up to the expectation. And what they were doing is they were using words and I think words are so underused in product descriptions, I walked around the beer counter in a supermarket and looked at a whole host of internationally known lager brands, and none of the brands actually said anything to me try to persuade me to buy them. They talked about how they were, how they were, how they were established, whether they might have been specially brewed. But none of those things were interesting. None of them said, Hey, we have a new taste in a beer to offer you. And I think people forget about that they worry too much about being all things to all people. So therefore they don't make a commitment to making a statement of what they're about. Very important. I think in any new product development activity. 

Jake Shaw  04:02

How do you develop a product in the first place? Can you develop it out of just an idea? Or do you develop from an existing product?

David Gluckman  04:08

In my case, I get a brief somebody would come to me and say we want you to develop a new vodka or a new dog food. And you look at the market, you look at what's around, you walk around supermarkets, you might do a bit of talking to people and then you formulate a thought. I remember developing a dog food many years ago, it was actually a disaster. But it was quite a nice story. One of the things you learn about pet foods is that it's satisfying the owner. That's all important. It's what they call anthropomorphism. So in other words, you have to have something which appeals to the owner in order for them to buy it on behalf of the dog. And we developed a product which I actually made up myself it was for Quaker Oats who had a dog food called chunky and I produce the product other bits of Quaker Oats porridge Semi moist dog foods added a bit of Bovril. And then added boiling water of the smell was absolutely delicious. I remember even eating it in the presentation, but there wasn't a dog food like it. And I got very excited by the company took it to the stage of a test market. But one of the things that they hadn't taken into account was the fact that when the product was rehydrated with boiling water, you had to put it up on a shelf out of the way of the dog until it cooled down. But apparently, the aroma drove the dogs mad, and they jumped up and rip many kitchen units apart, try to get a bit so the product failed. I think it comes from developing a single thought from everything, you understand that there's no rule about understanding something, you just look at the category and you formulate an opinion. And then you develop the brand from that opinion.

Jake Shaw  05:56

You've talked to me about this in the past about people making their own observations coming up with a product idea or a brand idea without any market research. And you and I've talked about market research and you said market research is moderately useful. Could you expand upon that

David Gluckman  06:15

From about 1973, when I figured out how to do it, I did all my own market research on my brands. And I never did more than four focus groups on anything. And usually, I found that after one, you've got about 90% of what you are after, after to you filled a few more gaps. and thereafter, it was the law of diminishing returns. So I think I saved my clients a huge amount of money by getting them to spend less money on market research. It's extraordinary, really, I think, in a way market research is a denial of the expertise of the protagonist. Because what you do is you've been in the business for 10 years, or whatever it is, you've come to a conclusion about a brand. I mean, I'm always amazed how people spend a quarter of a million dollars designing a package. And then they get out and ask a whole lot of people who know nothing whatsoever about design, what they think it's ridiculous. One of the things that you've said to me in the past is creating brands is not a democracy.

Jake Shaw  07:15

What does that mean?

David Gluckman  07:16

In business and in marketing, in particular, people treat brand development is a democratic process. It's really about two people. It's the person who will Commissions the idea and the person who has it has the idea. And they become almost interchangeable because he developed a very close relationship with people for whom you develop ideas so that you both clearly understand the problem. And so that you can both see the solution when it's emerges. But as soon as you open it out to a wider group where they feel compelled to input they feel compelled to question you end up with ideas being diluted. That's why I think democracy is death to new brands. Because you're looking for consensus, you aren't looking for a particular view. I wrote a piece on LinkedIn A while back called 'Sour Cola' at the end, and I said, Well, if you were trying to compete with Coke, what would you do? You wouldn't make the same mistake that virgin made when they produced virgin Cola, which is exactly like Coke. But it wasn't because people didn't buy it. And people didn't believe it. If you're going to compete with something as big as Coke, what you have to do is be more modest in your aspirations aim for aim for the ankles, not for the heart. In other words, you can't compete with Coke on its own terms. Therefore, you have to move the goalposts. And I had the idea. Well, what happens if we develop sour Cola, as our colours are very aggressive statement of difference. And I think it's important that it may indeed be of real, real interest to say 3% of coke users. But who's going to go into the market with something that does not appeal to 97% of the potential market? That's where you have to be brave. And that's where you have to stick with what you believe in. That's why again, that's why it's not a democracy.

Jake Shaw  09:16

David, if somebody would like to get your help with developing their brand or their product, where do they find you?

David Gluckman  09:22

They can find me on www that sh*t will never sell.com that's the website for my book of the same name.

Jake Shaw  09:31

David, thank you so much for Thank you. Brilliant conversation. 

Jake Shaw  09:35

Thank you for listening. If you'd like to hear more podcasts like this, please go to www.amaiz.com and don't forget to like and share this podcast.