Are you ready to transform your parent-child relationship? Join me as I host a fascinating conversation with Miriam Campbell, founder of Skills for Connection, who enlightens us on the art of fostering robust connections. Miriam's journey from being a speech therapist to a social worker serves as the backbone of our discourse, where she generously shares her insights and tools utilized to enhance relationships and communication skills among parents and children.
Our conversation takes an in-depth look at the essence of establishing a shared "bubble-double," a realm that encapsulates the interaction between two individuals. Miriam illuminates the profound impact of understanding social skills, spatial awareness, and recognizing enmeshment and self-differentiation in relationship dynamics. We also tackle the vital role of self-awareness and the significance of developing an attuned sense of our bodies to better grasp our internal experiences.
We also delved into the often-encountered resistance to child guidance and the value of recognizing the multifaceted parts of ourselves. The sensitive issue of divorce and its impact on children also forms a part of our conversation. Miriam imparts her wealth of knowledge as a therapist, providing valuable insights on how families can rebuild connection and security after such a seismic disruption. We cap off our enriching conversation by examining the intriguing gender differences in decision-making and the profound influence of the body-mind connection on personal growth. This conversation is a goldmine of knowledge for anyone seeking to enhance their personal relationships and understanding of self.
Miriam can be reached at skillsforconnection@gmail.com
Are you ready to transform your parent-child relationship? Join me as I host a fascinating conversation with Miriam Campbell, founder of Skills for Connection, who enlightens us on the art of fostering robust connections. Miriam's journey from being a speech therapist to a social worker serves as the backbone of our discourse, where she generously shares her insights and tools utilized to enhance relationships and communication skills among parents and children.
Our conversation takes an in-depth look at the essence of establishing a shared "bubble-double," a realm that encapsulates the interaction between two individuals. Miriam illuminates the profound impact of understanding social skills, spatial awareness, and recognizing enmeshment and self-differentiation in relationship dynamics. We also tackle the vital role of self-awareness and the significance of developing an attuned sense of our bodies to better grasp our internal experiences.
We also delved into the often-encountered resistance to child guidance and the value of recognizing the multifaceted parts of ourselves. The sensitive issue of divorce and its impact on children also forms a part of our conversation. Miriam imparts her wealth of knowledge as a therapist, providing valuable insights on how families can rebuild connection and security after such a seismic disruption. We cap off our enriching conversation by examining the intriguing gender differences in decision-making and the profound influence of the body-mind connection on personal growth. This conversation is a goldmine of knowledge for anyone seeking to enhance their personal relationships and understanding of self.
Miriam can be reached at skillsforconnection@gmail.com
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce conversations where we analyze, navigate and troubleshoot all stages of your romantic life. I'm your host, igor Meistelman, a divorce attorney turned relationship coach. Hello everybody, welcome back. I'm really excited to have this opportunity to sit down with Mary Campbell, who is a social worker. She also has a business called skills for connection and she focuses on working with parents and helping them work on all sorts of skills and improving their relationship with their kids.
Speaker 2:Hi, mary, hi thanks for having me here Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, so I think it'd be great to start off with if you could maybe just share a little bit about yourself. How did you get into the line of work that you do? What do you like about it? What?
Speaker 2:do you not like about it? So the reason I got into it is honestly because of listeners that are here, because I'm passionate about connection and growth, because I know that I need to do it for myself and I know that that's what we're all here for. So for somebody to tune in and listen to a podcast like this means that that's what they're also passionate about. So thank you guys for being the inspiration behind all this, because without people interested in growth, then if you want to help support growth, you need to have people, because we all work together. So that's how I got into the line. Of work is I'm passionate about connection and I really want to help kids specifically with connection, because I feel like when our kids could get the support when they're young, then they could have just a more enriched whole life and in their adulthood they're able to develop deeper relationships and all the things that we want conflict resolution and, you know, self-awareness and being able to expand to their biggest selves and when we can start helping kids when they're young.
Speaker 2:So I actually started out as a speech therapist because I wanted to give tools. I wanted concrete tools to give people to help them with communication and relationship skills, and then I quickly found I needed to address the emotional component, because we're all one big self with head and heart and mouths and muscles and, you know, air and all the pieces that make us us, and I felt like I needed more background in that. So I trained as a social worker and then I was working with kids for many years and found that they really do need to have more than two hours or, you know, the most two hours a week of therapy. They needed their parents to know what to do. So then I segued into working primarily with parents and teachers and helping them know how to naturally use these tools, so that way the child's not going to a very contrived session and navigating these tools, but actually using them in real life. So I teach parents how to teach their kids social skills and I'm loving it.
Speaker 2:A really funny thing that I really did start with my intention to work with kids. That was my intention and the irony is that through teaching parents these tools, is that parents are finding that it's actually helping them in their own relationships. So, like, which is not? I mean, it makes sense because, like, whenever you, you know, start the growth, you know process, like you can't move one part of the dance without the other, the dance just moving, and it makes sense. But it wasn't my intention and I'm. It's just so incredibly gratifying to hear parents take these tools for themselves and to when they're trying to help their child have emotional regulation and they're developing emotional regulation and they're trying to help their child have more self-awareness and understanding how their self is impacting the other and that engagement and that interaction and they're finding that it's helpful in their own relationships with their child, but even with their spouses and even with their co-workers, and it's just really beautiful to witness these beautiful parents and beautiful families.
Speaker 1:This last point resonates very much for me. I was actually invited to give a talk in a synagogue in the in the neighborhood where I live in Phoenix and I at the end just basically there was enough questions where at the end I just said to the parents you know when you're going to be parenting, but when you engage in parenting you're, you're raising two people, your child and yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, exactly, and the more that you come to terms with that, the more you'll be successful in raising the kid. And I think I think what some people are really resonated because the focus so easily shifts into what do I have to do with the child and how do I address this child and almost kind of fall by the sideway realization that but you're an active participant in that journey and so how you're?
Speaker 1:showing up is also impacting how the child is showing up, and I saw how some people was like kind of like a light bulb moment while I think about my own participation in that kind of entire journey that's taking place yes, very much, and.
Speaker 2:I also find like it's empowering for parents to. You know, sometimes like the parent will come and they'll tell me like my child very rigid thinking, or my child's too bossy, or my child is bullying, or my child is a victim, or my child, you know, can't sit still, or my child's forgetful, whatever the skills are. And when we are in the mode of seeing our children like that, then we sort of forget our piece of it. So, like when a parent tells me my child is rigid, it's like wait, that's a little bit of a rigid statement you made, parent.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not saying it like ha ha ha, look at you, you're doing this. I'm saying it like with the most compassion and love, because my husband's Rebi Rebi and I remember him telling, telling us one time like he said, like you know, if let's say like, they say like okay, a parent has bipolar, then their kid has bipolar. It's not like oh well, because of genes, it had to happen like that, they had it because his father had it, and he's like no, no, my son doesn't have like a limited amount of cards in the deck. You know he's able to like. It's not like okay, I have five bipolar cards.
Speaker 2:Okay, any me, any mine and it's like oh, let me give this child to this parent specifically, because they're going to help each other. So, like this parent, who might have self judgment for whatever challenge they have, they get angry quickly and then they're able to see like oh, my child was born like this. Like this is the challenge that they were given and they're able to have compassion for the, for their child, because they see, like my child didn't choose to get to have a, you know, short temper. This is how Hashem made them. Oh, hashem also made me parents like this. Like they're able to have that self love because they see that their child didn't make themselves with their character challenges. Like the child was born like that. So it sort of allows them to have their own healing process. And this child now has this amazing opportunity because no one in the world will understand them like their parent, because no one else has this same type of personality, the same type of dynamic internal challenge. Like you also need to think they're stuck to be on exactly like this. Like, oh, your father also has. That he can totally resonate with you.
Speaker 2:And then it can often serve as like a trigger for the parent because like, oh, my gosh, like if they haven't yet resolved that. Oh my gosh, why am I so perfectionist that I have to have my sock on perfectly like this? Why am I so sensory? Why am I so they're able to? They they're sort of in this dynamic where, through their child, they have to confront themselves and they have this amazing process of being able to engage in this self journey of parenthood of you know what you were saying raising themselves to, to be able to help their child and, like I always say this like if Facebook or whatever could learn how to monetize love, we'd really be in trouble, like right now. They're really good at like monetizing, like desire and fear, you know. So the advertisements and stuff, but if they could monetize love, you know, like we're gonna really be in trouble.
Speaker 2:Because parents have so much love for their children, they're able to really overcome incredible obstacles within them, their own selves, to be able to support their child's like they might not have been able to address their own. You know shame that they have with their perfectionism, with their socks or whatever, but because they have this child now, they're in a situation where daily, many times a day, every time their child takes off their sock, they now get to re-engage with it and it doesn't mean that it's perfect, but they are engaged and it's just so incredibly powerful and beautiful to recognize like none of it's an accident and we are given the exact children that we need to grow ourselves, with all of their beautiful struggles and beautiful strengths and that whole process. It's just like there aren't really words magic.
Speaker 1:The word came to my mind was magic. I want to step back and ask you a question about a word you used and it might be maybe a little bit sort of a philosophical or psychological in nature, but I'm very curious to hear when you think the word connection I mean in in terms of human relationships, whether it's parent to child spouses. When you think of the word connection, can you speak a little bit more to that? What does it look like? What does it mean when we are in the state of connection?
Speaker 2:it's so funny. I actually wrote a book, a children's book, about this. It's called bubble double and it's about connection. It came about I was working with a very darling child, around seven years old, diagnosed with autism, and he struggled with greetings, which what that looked like was. He would come into a room and be very frustrated because he would talk to the person and they would sort of have no idea that they were. He was talking to them because he didn't address them and it would also mean at the end of and, and you know, in the middle of the classroom he could theoretically leave because he didn't appreciate that space. And so, you know, I was a relatively new therapist and I was doing all the things that the research shows you're supposed to do. You do role playing, you draw it out so they could have a concept, and you know, of saying hello, saying goodbye, and at the end of a really great, wonderful session went, really great, he just left, he didn't say goodbye. I was like, oh, I should quit this field.
Speaker 2:That was my very strong realization yeah, I need to stop working in this field because this doesn't work. Yeah, you know, I was doing everything right and it wasn't working. And Husham gave me this idea of because he didn't, he didn't understand that we were sharing a connected space, that we were engaging and there was sort of like this sacred bubble space that we both were inhabiting, that we both were, you know, engaging with. And so this idea of like this visualization of like a shared bubble double where I have a self and I am in my own bubble and the other is in their own bubble and they are self in their own bubble, and then we sort of have this magic, if you were saying thing that develops when the two bubbles engage, it doesn't have to be in person, or it could be on the phone, or it doesn't have to be, you know, possibly you have to be as arms like the stents. That's not true. I have to make Husham addition and engage you with somebody, you know. But it's sort of this bubble that forms around the two of the two people, the two bubbles, and that's a bubble double and that's the sort of sacred space of connection that these two people get to engage with and share space, and there are rules. That's how I teach.
Speaker 2:Social skills is within this connection. It's not about you have to be, have, you know, conform to social niceties because you have to conform, or it's not that you have to, you know, please them. It's a matter of I want to connect with the other and I want to make sure that I'm making a, making a space that this, this bubble, the sacred bubble, can thrive. And in order to get into this bubble, I have to say hello. In order to leave this bubble, I'd say goodbye. You know, if I am too too far, the bubble, they can't hear me. It's practically the bubble. It's, it pops, it stretches, it's too far. If I go into somebody else's bubble space without permission you know spatial awareness, I'm in their space then it pops. This bubble it's just like the other person's, like I don't really want to be in this space with you. It's too uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 2:Um, and that's really in my mind is there are specific skills that we can learn to help us with connection. Connection is this. I think it's a spiritual thing. I really do. I don't think there's any Like. How could a person feel connected to somebody across the country, across the world? You know it's a spiritual thing. It's not space or matter. Yet there are specific things that we can do that will help build connection, and that's what I teach parents how to do for themselves and how to do for their kids, because there are skills that help us develop connection and help honor the sacred space of the shared space that we have when we're with another human Something that you were reminding me as I was listening to this description is, in my trainings, a term that's constantly brought up is this idea of enmeshment versus self differentiation.
Speaker 1:And I just find, you know, I mostly work with couples and it's interesting the way you're describing how we need to think about this is skill that even a child learning is to learn. What happens when most of us are sort of schooling, and both education and even any technical training pretty much lacks, is lacking in teaching these ideas such as there's you, there's me and that's the beginning of the story versus, you know, one of us has to win and one of us has to lose in order for me to experience aliveness or to experience connection. Versus there could be two equally honored, respected beings and through that a real, genuine connection emerges where both are celebrated, both are acknowledged, and it's interesting for me to hear you know here's where you're trying to help parents and I understand how deal with the child, and I'm mostly dealing with two adults you know often who are also happens to be parents, but they're two adults and they're essentially living out a display of lack of the skills that you're describing and I always feel like I have to sort of take them back from scratch and teach them once again what it means to acknowledge there's your space, there's my space and here's how we're going to negotiate, engaging each other space and when it's okay to enter the others space, what it's not. It's very interesting how a lot of people unfortunately it was just skipped, jumped over and they're hoping to kind of wing it and with just with kind of sheer intuition and some common sense, to kind of make their way through something as complex as a marriage and what it means to live with another human being. And I think what people often find is that it's just not enough.
Speaker 1:Relying on intuition and just kind of your own inner sense of what you, what you think makes sense, is very often at least, is just not enough. And being exposed to concepts like this, like where there's two people and therefore we have to negotiate how we engage I call it rules of engagement like how do we engage each other? Do we just assume right? Like something as simple as are you available for a conversation? Well, I'll just start talking to you. I don't even ask wait, is this a good time for you? Maybe it's not a good time. There's something as basic retired from work.
Speaker 1:Right, that's right, that's right. So it's interesting how connection could be very sort of tender, sensitive space. And on the one hand, it seems like human beings, generally speaking, crave connection. One experience connection. We feel alive when we feel the sense of connection to the world around us. And yet there's, it seems to me like this is not enough discussion, education, awareness about how that connection is formed, how it's nurtured in a healthy way. We sort of kind of kind of collide and arbitrary moments and hope that that is enough to generate connection. And I find that I'm constantly trying to explain to adults that you have to nurture the space. It can just operate in autopilot. Do you have any thoughts of your perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's sort of. It's sort of going back to what I said about, like finding that the parents are gaining from these things. And you know, I worked with the same constructs I've broken it down to still constructs because I wanted to make it something that a teacher could use in a classroom and like I have, like these worksheets that they can just, you know, all the time, be using, like how do I, you know what's her perspective, what's my perspective? And that's, with everything you're doing, a, you know, a social studies lesson. What's the north's perspective, once the south's perspective? You know what's this, this general's perspective, what's that general's perspective? You know what is this leader and that layman and whatever it is? All the components are all built in it to the fabric of our lives.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing that I find is this first step is always going to be about developing self. There isn't a way to for for a parent to be present, or for a parent to be present, a spouse to be present, another spouse, without first having found the tenderness in themselves. You can't touch another person's tenderness, you know, like, reach out, like to their sweet smile, this child smile looking at you. You know if you are rushed or stressed, but we live in a world where everyone's very rushed and stressed, so, like, what are you supposed to do so for? When we parent ourselves and when we tap into our own internal selves, you know who am I and it's like, oh, I have this intense in my shoulders, oh, I had this feeling in my stomach, you know, and like it's very concrete and we can teach our kids that very concretely. You know that very concrete thing that is universal. You know couples who are dealing with this, children who are dealing with this, co workers who are dealing with this, co workers. So everybody at our humaneness has this body that is going to giving us information about how, internally, we're receiving things. It doesn't mean how we're thinking about things, but if you tell us just even like on the most basic check, in level of like what's happening right here, oh, my breath is short, my leg is jiggling. You know even just that that simple tune in allows us to develop that skill, and so I always say this. You know, people who've listened to a lot of my podcasts know this already.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I always say that you go to you know an age-old and you ask them like, oh, do you have as much self awareness as you possibly could have. You know, like it's laughable, like they'll be like, what are you talking about? Like it's a spiritual thing. I'm a spiritual make up, so I can't ever fully know myself, to fully be self aware, like as I chained in and develop and evolve and then to say to them are you as connected with the other as possible? So, like, no matter what a person's starting point is, there's always space for growth. You know, and some people had childhoods where they were raised in ways that they are very attuned to that internal tenderness, as you say. And there's not, like it doesn't even really matter because there's no one who's done the work. When I say done, meaning not involved in done, as in completed the work. There's no one who's completed like I'm not. I grow all the time in my skills and that's my.
Speaker 2:My litmus test for myself isn't did I never get angry? My litmus test was I engaged in the struggle, you know, because that's really what it's about is like, am I helping my child become more themselves? Oh, are they going to be perfect when they leave our houses? Are they going to be perfect, you know, are our marriage is going to be perfect? No, but like oh, was I more self aware and more aware of. Like oh, I was feeling, you know, hurt and felt like unloved. So then I responded how come you didn't take the trash out like we're engaging in the mundane arm are stressful lives perhaps, but we're just retuning into that internal tenderness and then be able to engage more from that space. You know, as part of the process, as part of the. You know the developing concept.
Speaker 1:So the question I have for you is that I find you know this concept of personality types right, and whether you take any grams, you take any other. You know like please understand me junk hearsay approach my or breaks my or breaks yeah my thanks, my personality test.
Speaker 1:The idea, though, is that people are wired differently, and that I mean there are many dimensions and factors to discuss, but if we just sort of spliced out the personality as one feature, for example, if you take a personality type, that is its nature is it's wired for connection. A person who's very tune like fours are, for example, in that model, one through nine. A number four is, like, known as essentially almost like endowed with this incredible emotional intelligence, very easily tunes to other people, but then you could pick another number where it's like almost like incompetence in the realm of emotional intelligence. You know they're the first one to be like haha, what is somebody crying right now? Really, right, and the person can be like crying in front of their face, right? There's such a disconnect and lack of awareness, and I'm just I'm wondering how that plays out in terms of trying to, let's say, teach, guide, help. Different people of different personality types develop these skills. I would imagine the ones that are more have like proclivity towards already being able to have the tools.
Speaker 1:They'll sort of just blossom into it, and the ones who don't either might put up resistance, might even question its validity or its usefulness. And I'm just wondering if, if you, if you kind of seen any of that experience like you're sitting down with these parents and you're like, well, you know, we're going to learn more self awareness, we're going to learn more about how to tune to the, you know, to the kid, and one parent is like almost crying so excited to connect and I was like huh, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:This is like you know this is like macro physics. You know astronomy. I have no clue what you're saying right now to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm laughing because that's the heart of it. That's exactly it Like, that is like so many of so many of our children. And I'm going to talk about children not because it doesn't relate to marriages and not because it doesn't relate to mother or father, but because it's easier to critique just getting people who are not us. You know, anyone who's listening to this podcast is not a child.
Speaker 2:So yeah what I would say is one of the things that I tell parents. This is that we're not our goals never to change another human being, a person with their makeup, has a very distinct role that we need them to play in this world. You know the like. Society needs rubbles and the society also needs sticklers, and society needs people who are like why are you even talking about this and deciding like? None of it's an accident? And it would be damaging, I would say, to try and say that the other person is not, is not what they need to be.
Speaker 2:That being said, connection is harder when somebody relates to the world in a way that's different than you. Now, let's say you have two rebels relating. They might have a lot to relate to, but they might not have so much to grow from each other, in which case they wouldn't be able to be growing themselves. Because it is through our engagement with people who are other that we actually extend ourselves, because otherwise I'm just living in my life within the dimensions that I exist in and I'm born in those dimensions and I die in those dimensions, and it's not a very rich life. I'm just going to hear the echo chamber. You know that we hear in social media all the things I like will just be echoed back into my ears.
Speaker 2:Yeah does it change me? Does it grow me? Does it expand me? That's from a practical space. Aside from that, there's so much that we can actually learn from the other. The stickler, who needs things to be exactly according to the piece, has a tremendous amount to learn from the rebel and the rebel from the stickler.
Speaker 2:When we look at our children, you know our parents will tell me all the time like my child is so high energy I can't even access them at all, like they don't stay still for a second. How am I supposed to ever connect with them? And I feel their pain because they still badly want to connect to their child. And I think that it comes down to if the parent isn't high energy finding some common denominator. There's a place where you can connect to your child. So you can't. You're not going to relate to them with jumping on the trampoline, but maybe you can relate to them with unpacking groceries really quickly, Using their strength, sort of channeling, finding their self.
Speaker 2:Who are they, what is their beautiful strength and their greatness? That society needs, that I need. They have something that I don't have. How do I know? Because it's friction. Whenever there's friction, it means that there's a piece of it that I? It's too far from me? I don't, it's not within my dimensions. I am limited within my own self. But if I can reach across the abyss to reach the other, I'm going to find something that I don't have and I need. There's a part of me that needs that energy when I'm undoing groceries and I'm so tired at the end of the day, and that child can do it and I can praise this child and connect to this child's greatness where they're at. That's, I think, the first place. The first place is finding them.
Speaker 2:Your child's obsessed with video games. All they want to display the video games. Video games are the most boring thing to me. Why? What is this dumb alternative reality that's made out of pixels? Like your heartbeat is feeding fast. Like what is this ridiculousness? The amount of waste of time. Yet your child has tremendous passion about feeling successful. I can totally get that zombie. I could totally, you know, build this whole castle with all of my supplies that I've earned. Look at that sense of accomplishment, a sense of accomplishment I could relate to. A sense of accomplishment Whoa. My child loves accomplishing that feeling, that dopamine rush. I love dopamine rushes. My child loves dopamine rushes.
Speaker 2:I can connect to my child in a common denominator, because there is a piece of connection, because at that core, even if they are one, two, three, four, five, six, nine, whatever it is at their core, they're human and there's something incredibly powerful and incredibly dynamic and incredibly rich that I can access and will need for myself, even if I need it to say, like, what is it about myself that's uncomfortable with this? Why am I so uncomfortable with this? I'm going to, I need them to exist in their space because I need to develop who I am. You know, we, I'm going to get to this part two, because part two is really why parents come to me, which is how do I change my kid? You know, but we cannot. There is no space of connection to build any skills for connection until we're actually connected Like they're. That's like further down the road is how I can, you know, work with this child.
Speaker 2:We are parents, our guide, our, our role is to guide our child. We are going to help guide them. We're not just saying you are as you are and that's it. Leave your socks on the floor for all eternity. You know, that's not. That's not who we are Like, that's not our role as parents, but we cannot connect to them to teach them any skills of connection, which one of those things is self responsibility. You know, accountability, all these things are part of self and connecting with self. But we can't do it unless we can actually see them, and I mean like see them as in what? Who are they? Who is this? You know speed? You know lightning speed child that's running around in my house, or a child that's just sitting on the couch, spaced out, that doesn't want to move, or a child that's coming home with bloody noses every day. So how so? How about? So, how about?
Speaker 1:resistance. I'll tell you what I mean. Again, it's nice I'm picturing the scenario describing and it's nice if I'm already sitting with two parents who are determined, well defined, like they. Like, they know right, this is important in their life, they want to pursue this. But what about before you? Right before you can even start impacting the child? You're right now dealing with this parent and you're noticing, or you're perceiving, one of the parents is resisting or is skeptical or is just outright disagreeing with your approach, with your, with your belief system as to how to deal with this. So there, I would imagine there has to be some prior conversation as to whether it's even possible to bring online this connection that you're describing, through which we now can make positive impact, let's, let's say, on the child or on each other, or even on ourselves. But when the, the person's energy is filled with resistance, skepticism, I mean, I would imagine that that has to be addressed before there could be movement to stage two, to influence and impact and transform somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you're 100% correct, and that really is so much of the work, because when I have two parents in front of me, usually they both didn't decide at the same moment. Oh yes, this will be a good approach for help, to help our child. Usually, one of them is more important than the other, which is just technically. You know, one of them is on my WhatsApp group and has been exposed and knows about these things. The other one doesn't. Now, what that other person is bringing the skeptical parent is protectiveness for their child is fear, which is underlying, is tremendous love. So that is where their starting point is, just like our child's starting point might be high energy, this parent who comes in and their starting point is resistance. Resistance is what we need in this dynamic, because there's something there that's sacred that they're bringing Annoying, yes, hard to deal with, yes, make things take longer, very possibly, but that is where what we're bringing to the table and that is inside of that person's resistance, is something incredibly powerful. Usually it's love of their child or fear, and usually fear comes from either history of having failed or a tremendous sense of like. I wish I could do this, but I am too even scared to be hopeful, like I'm too scared to even be hopeful, and that is something we need to bring to the table, like that. Why are you afraid to be hopeful is because what it is is so important to you. Your child's skills are so important. There's something that's even deeper, that's so important that to not have that is scary, to even hope, to wish to have that and then to maybe this person can help me. Maybe this person can't help me. And that's the same thing when our child comes and many of the kids I work with the families the child has a diagnosis ADHD, asd, sometimes no diagnosis, maybe should have diagnosis, maybe it doesn't matter. It doesn't even really matter because the diagnosis is just describing these core pieces. This child might be so overwhelmed by sensory input that they can't engage. So what is happening in your child? Your child is working so, so, so hard every minute because the light is flashing too much for them and the materials on their shirt are scratching them and the sounds like whoa, this child is a warrior. So when I relate to this child, I'm relating to this warrior that's here, and or the parent that's coming and is resistant, or the spouse that's coming and is like I can't ever work on this relationship.
Speaker 2:What you think that I'm going to be talking about, my feelings is going to help me. You're telling me looking into my body and trying to find where my body's experiencing emotions going to help me. I think I'm supposed to rule from my head. My head has always been good, been there for me, okay, good, your head has been there for you. That is a really important thing to keep in mind.
Speaker 2:We need to make sure that your head is signing off. That part of you is signing off on what you're doing, on the work you're doing, because it's always been there for you and it's been something you can always rely on. So you need to make sure that your head's on board the pieces that we have, the parts of ourselves. Each self is going to be the conduit. That's what I'm saying. The step one is always going to be self, and the self is the parent self, the spouse self, the child self, and that's where it really comes to that. We all are in this process because there's always more parts of us and it's never going to be boring. We're never going to be plateaued, even in our plateau. That's also communicating to us Stagnating Nothing's helping, nothing's working, that stagnation is communicating to us. It's just beautiful, because nothing of Hashem's creation, nothing of our experiences is something that we can't be involved in and engage with and grow with.
Speaker 1:I want to make like a 180 on the highway and ask you a question that's going to shift us into kind of a new trajectory. I'm very curious to know if you have an experience with this, and if not, it's okay. But I'm just curious if you have a perspective on what about divorced homes? Right, I mean, I have my own background I'm happy to share if it will be relevant. We know that, of course, with that again, looking up any statistics, there's enormous impact on a child's journey when the child experiences their world, their nuclear family, being torn apart or be broken down. It leaves tremendous scars and which results in all kinds of acting out and behavioral issues, etc. Etc. There's so much that kind of flows out of that explosion that takes place in the family. So I'm just very curious to also hear.
Speaker 1:I feel like we so far are analyzing where the starting point is okay, there's a family unit, it's relatively intact, and now we're trying to do some work on strengthening the family system, building closer bonds, connections between various members within the system.
Speaker 1:But what about when the system permanently breaks, or permanently is going to redefinement or right? There's divorce and then remarriage and so now there's more people brought into the system. I'm just curious if you could speak to terms of teaching parents. I guess there have been two parents that came and said you know they want to, they want to figure out how to deal with their kid. Or just if you just yourself made any observations, I myself just kind of for years would watch all these things unfold, just kind of, first as being a divorce attorney and then now working with couples. It comes up all the time but I'm always curious to understand better and really deeper what is going on in those children as they experience themselves and their world around them when they kind of live through a traumatic event such as a divorce and end of a family system.
Speaker 2:Sorry, it's so sad.
Speaker 1:That's why I got out.
Speaker 2:This is how I think about challenges that people engage with. The work is different when a person is currently in a state of unsafety, like you don't start doing trauma therapy with somebody while the fire is still raging. You try and get them safe while the fire is still raging, you take them out of the building. You know they can't be in that space, but then afterwards they have to learn how to feel safe again and that thing that was extremely destructive fire can actually help a child learn internal tools to develop themselves, where they become makers of themselves. Now that could mean that they have to learn how to build bricks. That for another child they don't have to learn how to build bricks because their building is intact, they never had a fire. So that child will develop, know themselves.
Speaker 2:If they can heal, if they're guided in healing and if they're given the tools and the support, you know that they could build something that is really from themselves. That they'll have created their internal sense of safety, because it won't have just come naturally from having a stable building that they lived in. They had to learn themselves. You know, and it's on a very core body level Anytime you know, that trauma is stored in the body. So they have to sort of create new neurons in their brain, find safety in their physical space and their physical body, and that safety will be something that they've made. They'll be stronger because they've made it.
Speaker 2:It'll also be like scarier a little bit because they made it. They'll have to think of things that another child won't have to think about, like plumbing, electricity. How does this? How do I build this building? You know, certain senses of regulation will be much more challenging, but they will own their process. They'll own it, and when they come into their marriages and into their relationships they're going to be working really hard. But any part of their relationship that they build will be theirs. They'll have made it.
Speaker 1:It really is like now that. I'm listening to like oh man, maybe I should have asked that question.
Speaker 1:Why it's such a no, it's such a no, not me as in, like I also like, when I take it in, you just it's so hard as an adult where you know most adults already sort of experience some kind of bruising, scars, tissue meaning in our adult forms we're. It's almost like you take it for granted, you know, until the pain kind of reaches a certain unbearable threshold. So then maybe we're like okay, it is uncomfortable, so it's so easy to just overlook for a little child. Their entire resistance is being channeled through the family concept, the existence of this unit called the family, that they have these two parents and they take care of me and even if sometimes they're not doing such a good job, but the existence of the unit itself is an anchor of their world.
Speaker 1:And I can tell you that, by the way, that a lot of times I don't want to like give impression, not like majority of time, but frequently enough couples will tell me, either together or one of the spouses, that I'm staying in this relationship because of the children.
Speaker 1:I don't want, I don't want this relationship, but I don't. But I know the harm that will be inflicted on the children. I don't want that impact or harm to happen. Or sometimes both spouses will say that and they'll stick around just to avoid opposing harm to the child. And so I know that for a lot of people who listen to my type of show or it's always about relationships the children very often become this sort of a background variable that is not very much talked about in terms of things that are pressurizing relationship, stressing the relationship between the spouses, but it's very much present in the background. It really is playing an active role in what goes on in the relationship space between the adults. But it's interesting how like for some people it's like literally the defining feature of to stick around or not to break up a family or not break up children or you know I don't really know.
Speaker 2:You know every, every time I don't know. I would never. I don't know anyone's choice or space to make any of these decisions. You know that's solely in their own space to be able to figure out what they need. But there's a lot of different types of fires. The divorce is one type of fire and fighting is another type of fire and there's a lot of different. There's a lot of different things and, as I was saying before, if let's say the children become the impetus, like, okay, let's work this out because of the children, that's sort of like let me work out how I relate to the itchiness in my sock for myself, because of my child's itchiness in their sock, my relationship with my like it becomes the impetus, like it's all, it's all part of the picture, because they're all pieces that can. That are the challenging pieces. But actually the spaces for growth, like it is those conflicts that are the space for growth. Like he likes croutons, she doesn't like croutons. Every time she puts croutons in the salad. That's a place of conflict. They put different, different things. She puts croutons. For him, that place of friction became the place of connection, the actual space of friction. So let's say the child's needs, like this is very, very common, especially when you know a regular dynamic. A regular relationship has its challenges because there's two selves engaging. So like, okay, basic challenge, you know large basic challenge. But then add on let's say, a child, a child additional, and then add on a child with the diagnoses and the strain that that could put on a relationship and that, and I've seen, like the choices people have made within that. You know what happens when one spouse doesn't pick up, what is that, and then the other parent, the other spouses, left carrying the whole thing, the whole load. Or what happens when two spouses band together, or what happens. You know the choices that we make within the conflict. That's, that's the, that's where connection is. Is what are we doing within that space? What are we doing within that? The two selves? You know that's one of the core thing, one of the core.
Speaker 2:The core, I would say the core skill of relationship skills after having a self, is the perspective taking up like okay, who was the other and how do I relate to the other? And that's the part where we get to like be way bigger than we ever were, ever or we could ever possibly be without the other. I could never imagine having so much internal endurance to be able to carry the weight of taking care of this child. I never thought I would be able to have that. I never thought I'd have as much love and persistence and dedication I never would have been able to have that.
Speaker 2:Is it because the other person's not carrying the load? What does it mean that they're not carrying the load? What's going on in their world that they feel so? What? Because they can't overload, carry the load that they're leaving me alone in the dark? I know that they care about me. They told me before they cared about me but why aren't they showing up what's happening in their world?
Speaker 2:And that's like the fundamentals of social skills, like the when I say fundamentals, like that's at the core, core, core, heart of it is can I take care of myself enough, value myself enough, see my own spark enough that I have energy? And I have the desire to see the other person's spark and to see their energy. Can I is there, can I? Can I have that? Can I have enough self that I can feel safe enough in myself that I can reach beyond and access the other and understand what's the other? Where is the other? Oh, they're sleeping. Oh, I should be quiet when they're sleeping. My grandmother came from far away and she wants to give me a hug. I don't really like hugs, but I should give her a hug because, from her perspective, you know, can I do that? Oh, I want to be a loving person, I want to give to her, I will hug her. I don't like hugs, but I will hug her because I want to see the other's perspective, type of thing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to take you on the roller coaster. Here comes another wave of a totally different nature. Do you find and again I maybe I'll weigh in I do want to share my controversial perspective on this, but I'm also very curious to hear yours Do you find any differences from the work you're doing in the genders? Because what I found are two things, and the things I'm going to share now are more anecdotal than rooted in research, and I think sometimes I have moments where I'm like one day I should really take a look at some kind of a really big longitudinal study so I could like have a real research backing what I'm about to say, because I'm literally sharing only just from observing, of handling the cases and families that I've handled over the years, and the following patterns have emerged for me during moments of high, high conflict, high tension, women tended to become more rational, grounded.
Speaker 1:Men become irrational and emotional and the decisions, the quality of the decision making process that's the words I wanted to say the quality of the decision making process to me was always significantly higher in women and significantly reduced in men.
Speaker 1:Men tended to go into survival mode.
Speaker 1:Women were very much other oriented, wanted to figure out a compromise Men tended to be stubborn very much from my way of the highway and I'm wondering if you could share, or if you ever thought about that observation of sitting with parents, sort of a couple after couple after couple, and you know they're, they're sharing with you their stories or grappling with their children and sort of just how they present, as they talk about, as they struggle with it.
Speaker 1:I wonder if you noticed any sort of gender defining aspects, because the reason the reason I feel like it's important to talk about is not only like to point out the difference in genders is I feel that if we really sort of pin down and define the difference, then we can teach, educate, apply different standards, approaches to each respective gender that would allow them to be more effective, be more accessing state of connections. That's why I think it's important versus sort of one science fits all here's what everybody should be doing and to a disregard of maybe very important characteristics such as gender and how that's impacting the person's overall experience of being relational.
Speaker 2:It reminds me a little bit of like the neuroscience behind. You know, the base of our brain is where survival is in our Olympic system. Our feelings are right next to our survival states and I would make the generalization of saying that women are generally probably more emotional and in their space of survival, sort of like cut off their flow to their emotions in survival meaning it's the same survival state that might make them in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's okay, we'll delete it. It's okay, we're gonna be wrapping up and I'm gonna delete all this, it's okay. You started sharing how you find, which is very I actually find this very interesting. I never thought in those terms that the very thing that's sort of like the strength, the thing that woman leans on is, let's say, the her emotional capacity actually gets cut off, you're saying, and then she sort of becomes.
Speaker 2:I think it's survival Cerebral.
Speaker 1:But you're saying it's not a cerebral from a place of relaxed state of thinking, it's a survival cerebral. But then how will you explain the man?
Speaker 2:I think that's me. It's made of like biologics. She is in for her best state she is, and when he is in for his best state and I think that they both sort of are just trying to let's try something else. And I don't even think that, if it's a decision, I think it's like a man's job is to protect and provide. So if let's say they have to, let me buckle down on my nest and don't let anyone in, don't let anyone out.
Speaker 2:I have to protect my nest it leads to rigidity and it leads to I'm going to switch to not break next to the drill. Oh, you're home, Okay, great. Sorry, I'm not in a rush, my hair needs to be here. You have to watch her, Okay. Okay, she had reset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, but you're up there, you're frozen.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay. So basically, the way that I understand it is that when we are in our prime state, like the most, ideal is that our whole brain is in, you know, symbiotic use. Our thoughts, our feelings, our body states are all being taken into account and then, from a frontal lobe place, we make decisions and it takes into account all of it. The way Dan Siegel describes it is that you put your hand, you put, you know, tuck your thumb in to cover your fingers. Your frontal lobe is by your nails and it's hugging your whole brain. It's taking everything into account and it's making good decisions.
Speaker 2:When we're in a place of fear or danger, then our if it changes. Things are the way that things are supposed to flow, aren't flowing. So very often I'll have mothers that'll come and they're in problem solving their child. Their children will be fighting and then suddenly they're resolving all the fights. If they were in a place of centeredness and that all their had they had complete blood flow to their whole cells, then they would think, okay, I want to teach my child a skill here, this conflict, my kids are fighting, I don't want to resolve the fight for them. Yes, it will give me immediate quiet, but it's not going to give them life skills. So they're also responding from a place of lack of safety and so they're coming to conclusions. They're also out of touch, out of sync with their naturally more emotionally selves and not thinking in a balanced way by trying to problem solve, where very often I'll find the father or the man will hunker down and he's to protect his territory and he doesn't have any solutions to this. There's not anything in his mind and there's not really so much blood flow going to the front of his brain because his body sending a message of danger, danger, danger. So he's going to hunker down and protect his nest for all his worth and nothing's allowed in and nothing's allowed out, and that looks very rigid and because he's in, he's like that's his fight, her fight looks like okay, let me quickly resolve all the issues. Let me you know if I take care of all the other people around me, I'll be safe or the situation will be resolved.
Speaker 2:It's not like more caring or less caring, or more loving or less loving, it's survival. And they both look like survival. They both are fear based and when we can address our fear and address like oh my gosh, I'm going to be safe even if I have a conflict right now, and my child is going to be able to be safe. How can a child be safe through a conflict? How can I feel safe in a conflict? Oh, this is going to be the moment where I be, when I actually develop my life's mission, which is grow myself and connect. That's how I could be safe even now, even when my kids are tearing each other's hair out, even when my spouse is refusing to X, because in this space is the place where growth happens, and that's the point. So then, their safety, even in that place of lack of safety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they're great points. Do you have techniques or like? Could you share any tips or skills when you're trying to help somebody either do self regulation or just to kind of become more grounded if they're if they're just feeling off or dysregulated. Do you have any specific go to things you like?
Speaker 2:Yes, my, my favorite one is ground yourself, because we have something called mirror neurons, which are the same brainwaves that actually allow our children to learn language when they hear us saying a word and they're able to mirror back or even like a little infant. You can hold a little baby, stick your tongue out and they'll stick their tongue back out back at you. That's mirror neurons. That's how they learn about the world. We're social beings, created socially, and when we step inwards, we're going to learn. When we step inwards, the spouse is still freaking out, the kid is still freaking out. Okay, I can find internal safety. We actually, aside from us not feeling like we're losing it, we actually also provide an oasis. Someone told me I don't know if this is true, I don't know if this is research based they said up to nine feet, a person can sense the emotions of another person. I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's true or not, but you said within nine feet, yeah, within nine feet, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I don't know if it's true. I the reason why I repeat it, even though I don't know if it's true, is because it resonates like when your kids are falling apart.
Speaker 1:Maybe you're, maybe you're a four, maybe.
Speaker 2:I'm a four, then it's this it's this interesting thing to be able to ground yourself, be centered in yourself, and that actually can provide that support, that anchoring, so the other people around you have that capacity to also. Oh, there is safety in this room. Right now, I feel like everything is, you know, upside down topsy-turvy. Oh wait, I'm sensing there is this person of safety here in my presence. Okay, and to go real soon from there.
Speaker 1:It's funny You're reminding me of when I was doing my master's in marriage therapy. We had a series of classes called the body in the room and basically this this professor was essentially trying to build a case and it was happens to be looking back. I was very much sold was very convincing argument, which the idea is that what do we tend to do? We tend to sit down if that and we just start talking about the problem and we just discussed it and we assume all there was is, let's say, some intellectual blockage to clarity and if we speak it out with words, we're just going to arrive at whatever conclusion we need to arrive. And what he was basically shown us and we were practicing this and in like small groups to experience it for ourselves is, if the body is itself in a dysregulated state, if the body is holding tension, stress, some form of discomfort, and you don't bring the body into a more present, relaxed state, that directly impacts the quality of the mind, the emotion and the energy within of being able to be present, relational, holding space for the other person. And so I was so fascinated by this, I decided to experiment, and this is then.
Speaker 1:I pretty much do it every session pretty much, which is the way I start sessions with couples. Before they do what we call the model dialogue, I just have them close their eyes and we do like small meditation where I just kind of help them to breathe through the day, breathe through whatever they feel they're sitting with as they're going into the session, and the whole idea is to sort of just kind of unburden and step out even if it's temporarily step out from the sense of the pressure of my life and all the things I have to deal with. Can I just be present for the next hour? Can I just be present? And many couples have shared that the quality of the session itself, the actual interaction with their spouse was, like qualitatively different when they attempted to dialogue after centering. So we go with centering as opposed to where they sit down and say, okay, hi, nice to see you, good afternoon, okay, let's dialogue and something in that experience was missing was the chair.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, we exchanged the words, but I'm still feeling unsettled, I'm still feeling like something's off, whereas a significant contrast to situation for couples. You know, we're sitting down and before we jump into the work, just invite the body to relax and like the more this body is relaxed, the more the mind, the emotion is available, and I won't steal.
Speaker 1:Yes, I guess I was just wondering to hear if there's anything more you do in terms of either working with the body or looking at how just the body's place in the entire dynamic, how it's impacting and therefore what, if anything, to do about it. Like I said, like, just like, let's say, my session is in OB two to four minute meditation for a couple, just to breathe through their body and just let the body relax and be present. That actually sets the mind for a more, you know, available, accessible journey. So it seems like there is my body connection in that way.
Speaker 2:Yes, very much so that resonates very much. I find that a lot. I'm actually doing a training now, a film there, with somatic experiencing, but I wanted to deepen my understanding of felt sense, which somatic experience is very much like about the body and like really learning the body, and I feel like felt sense is sort of the focusing, is like the conversation between the two, and I find that very much. I find that, you know, across the board, we have two. We have parts of us, parts of us as our body and part of us as our mind, and they're just parts. You know, our soul isn't either of them, they're just, they're tools. Both of them are tools and the more that we take all of our tools and we let them all work together and communicate with each other, the more effective we are and happier and freer and available for growth.
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