What if your relationship could be transformed from a power struggle to a harmonious partnership? Join us as we unravel the complexities of marriage and relationships with Shaya Kraus, a mental health professional, and clinical supervisor at the Rambam Family Health Center. His wealth of knowledge and experience, specifically in couples counseling, and domestic violence awareness, play a pivotal role in guiding us through this journey of understanding the elements that make or break relationships.
In this engaging conversation, we delve into the importance of continuing education in marriage, the indicators of domestic violence, and the role of couples therapy in correcting power imbalances. Ishaq enlightens us on the difference between character illogical abuse and situational abuse and the significance of safety, trust, and a strong history in maintaining balanced relationships. His unique approach to couples work focuses on building attachments and creating positive connections—elements that are essential in cultivating a flourishing relationship.
We also explore the emotional development of children and the impact of parental relationships on their future attitudes and behaviors. Understanding the need to have uncomfortable conversations and destigmatize mental health struggles, we discuss the role of social and emotional learning in equipping young people with the tools to make healthy relationship choices. This enlightening conversation ultimately stresses the importance of understanding, mutual respect, and trust in relationships. Tune in to this episode and discover how to create a safe, fulfilling, and balanced relationship.
What if your relationship could be transformed from a power struggle to a harmonious partnership? Join us as we unravel the complexities of marriage and relationships with Shaya Kraus, a mental health professional, and clinical supervisor at the Rambam Family Health Center. His wealth of knowledge and experience, specifically in couples counseling, and domestic violence awareness, play a pivotal role in guiding us through this journey of understanding the elements that make or break relationships.
In this engaging conversation, we delve into the importance of continuing education in marriage, the indicators of domestic violence, and the role of couples therapy in correcting power imbalances. Ishaq enlightens us on the difference between character illogical abuse and situational abuse and the significance of safety, trust, and a strong history in maintaining balanced relationships. His unique approach to couples work focuses on building attachments and creating positive connections—elements that are essential in cultivating a flourishing relationship.
We also explore the emotional development of children and the impact of parental relationships on their future attitudes and behaviors. Understanding the need to have uncomfortable conversations and destigmatize mental health struggles, we discuss the role of social and emotional learning in equipping young people with the tools to make healthy relationship choices. This enlightening conversation ultimately stresses the importance of understanding, mutual respect, and trust in relationships. Tune in to this episode and discover how to create a safe, fulfilling, and balanced relationship.
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce conversations where we analyze, navigate, troubleshoot all stages of your romantic life. I'm your host, igor Meisterman, a divorce attorney turned relationship coach. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm really excited about this guest, ishaq Kraus, who has extensive history in the field of mental health. He also worked at an organization called the Shaolin Task Force. He also has private practice and he currently is clinical supervisor and therapist at the Ram Bam Family Health Center. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me Really excited.
Speaker 2:Maybe a great way to start would be if you could share with our listeners just kind of a little bit about your own journey, how you got into this line of work, what brings you here, what inspires you about mental health?
Speaker 1:Sure. So I was in Yashiva for a while. It came time to get out there, get a job, something at myself. The one thing that really resonated with me was, ever since I was younger, I was always the person that people would come to talk to. Friends would feel comfortable opening up about different things that they were going through and I seem to be pretty helpful in my listening. So I figured let's kind of take this to the next level. I went to social work school. I went to get my master's and my goal when I went in there was I want to be a couples counselor.
Speaker 1:I had read up on couples counseling and just like the concept of marriage it was something like I guess you could say I was always a psychological thinker and just the concept of relationships, the concept of how people interact with each other, just the idea that people even can relate to each other and connect with each other, is just so fascinated me Like.
Speaker 1:I'll give you an example. I was a weird kid and I remember at one point when I was a kid I was 5th or 6th grade I'm walking through the hallway and the thought popped into my head isn't it an amazing thing that people have this ability to use language and to form a relationship with each other, to connect with each other. It's like, theoretically you think about it very theoretically this is 5th grade me talking very theoretically we could both be speaking completely different languages that happen to have the same words and having completely different conversations, and somehow we take these funny sounds that our mouths make and we assign meaning to them. And not only did we assign meaning to them, but we run our lives based on these things. So this whole concept of relationships was really fascinating.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's really fascinating and very different from my own story, if I may add, because I began in the family courtwork system and then decided to pursue mental health. But can you share, how did you get to the point where you are now? So it was a journey.
Speaker 1:It was a journey. So, first, my first position after graduating was I was put in an outpatient mental health clinic, which was an amazing experience. I did not actually see any couples there, so it was still kind of like waiting, but it was. It was amazing. I think my youngest client that I worked with was six. The oldest client that I worked with was 78. And we had people coming in all sorts of challenges and I don't like calling them diagnoses, even though, yes, we did operate based on the DSM and all these different diagnoses but just the challenges that people were facing in life, whether it was depression, anxiety, hardship, issues, general, like the challenges that life threw at these people. And some of them I remember feeling like, oh, this person, I helped this person. Some people like, as I said, the case with everybody on their learning journey.
Speaker 1:Like some people, in retrospect there could have been a better outcome for them or maybe things that could have gone differently, but it was an amazing learning experience for me.
Speaker 1:So I had like a whole swath of different exposures in that in that setting ended up working in a bunch of schools, also into a bunch of different issues in the New York area, working with kids, mainly K to eight, but some K to 12 as well, and I ended up in a Shalom task force about four years ago and that was really my first couples based position, even though I had done some work with couples and like, just privately I've done some training, but that was like the first time that I really was immersed in working with relationships and it's really been such a it sounds funny to say it we're going to talk about an organization that's really focuses on domestic violence, but like it's just been such an amazing, fascinating experience to learn more about how people interact each other, learn more about what it means for an individual when they're interacting with someone else. It's been fascinating. I'm quite a trip.
Speaker 2:Not to me. This is one of those questions where I almost feel like I wish I didn't have to ask you, but sure for some listeners, either whether it's for themselves, god forbid or if it's for a friend or a relative, can you explain more just about what Shalom task force is, what it does, what its mission is and how does it help people in need? Okay, sure.
Speaker 1:So I mean, just before I get into that, just to give you the context, give you a little bit of a framework about what the agency looks like as a whole, and then we can kind of zoom into my part of it. Pretty much anybody who's opened up Jewish publication over the past barely 20 years or so probably seen one of our ads. You are not alone. It hurts to be abused, things like that. That's an ad for our hotline.
Speaker 1:The hotline has been the flagship program of Shalom Task Force for pretty much close to since the beginning of the organization, and the hotline is basically a place where people can call in completely anonymous and they can share their concerns about whatever their relationships might be. And that's really the most important part of the fact that they have that anonymous place to just call and talk and just share, and very often it's the first time people who are going through these situations have ever actually spoken about it with anybody. In and of itself can be very powerful, but it's also a place where we can sometimes get referrals for other services, whether it's to other agencies who offer more concrete services, whether it's referrals for therapists, which very often is something that can be a tremendous support for victims.
Speaker 1:We also do have a legal department which does representation in New York, whether it's consultation or presentation in the courts that are involved with domestic violence cases, so we're able to kind of refer out. So after a while of running the hotline, there was this theme that came up that we noticed a lot of people calling in and saying I noticed that there were these issues at the beginning of the relationship. I noticed that there were these issues when we were dating.
Speaker 2:Any number of rationalizations.
Speaker 1:That's why I didn't pay attention to it. These rationalizations will make a lot of sense. I didn't want to mess things up. I didn't want to rock the boat. There was family pressure, there was social pressure. I was looking to avoid a different situation which was worse than what I thought I might be involved in time. And now, years down the road, they're married, they have kids and they feel like they're really just stuck and they wish somebody would have told them to just pay attention to actually how you're feeling, pay attention to what those feelings are actually telling you and work with that.
Speaker 1:So, based on that and that is where that's where the education department of Shalom Passwords came out and we go to a lot of different settings.
Speaker 1:We talk to high school students about relationships, about making healthy decisions and relationships about domestic abuse awareness. We have programs that we run in high schools, not just like in single classes, but we have one program right now where we have some students from the school actually creating an awareness event for domestic violence awareness. That involves, like, the entire school. There's a presentation or a project, or some can be a schoolwide project. I've spoken to Rob Bonham about these issues I've spoken to just earlier today, not earlier today, earlier this week, I spoke to a group of therapists at a local clinic. I guess you could say the mission statement of the education department is to provide wraparound awareness to the community because from what we see and this is not just talking about domestic violence this is for healthy relationships in general. The more healthy relationships are spoken about on a community level, the more willing and the more able people are to contemplate the idea of seeking help and to even, like, think of the idea.
Speaker 2:Think about it.
Speaker 1:Let's say you find this a lot with other mental health issues as well.
Speaker 1:Very frequently people describe addiction like this. It's a very isolating feeling. Depression, also anxiety all these things can be very isolating. But if you think that there's something wrong with me and it's something that no one else has experienced and can ever understand, you're much less likely to reach out. Because even if I do reach out, who's going to understand me? Who's going to really be able to do anything with this? There's no hope. But when it becomes part of the community discussion, when it just comes part of the fabric or the community that we talk about relationships, we talk about healthy relationships, we talk about abuse, we talk about supporting people and we talk about connecting with other people in a healthy way, then yeah, it's still going to be uncomfortable because at the end of the day it hurts, but it's going to be less uncomfortable when it's something that everybody knows about and talks about. So that's really the goal of the education department.
Speaker 2:I realize that this point I'm going to make might be a bit risky and maybe I'll even get some criticism for this, but hey, I guess it's my podcast, so I have a little bit of leeway to bring up something that might be somewhat controversial or even uncomfortable for people to hear.
Speaker 2:But one thing that I'm very curious to hear your take on is why is it that when it comes to such an all-encompassing, all-pervasive topic of our lives, such as building families, working on Shalom Bias, working on our relationships, parenting, I mean, these are skills that are essential and they're there with us every single day to either serve us or to put us into real and comfortable situations, and yet, when it comes to the plethora of education available in the religious Jewish world, there seems to be such a shortage of real discussion taking in the forefront of people's minds.
Speaker 2:And in fact there could be all this emphasis on the different laws of Shabbos and Koshchers and all other kinds of obligations, but when it comes to giving like a real focused effort, other than, you know, during the Shave-Evim series at a specific time of the year, the rest of the time I'm finding people are very much in cruise control slash survival mode and are not really engaging in a focused, concentrated way into what is for sure, one of the bright, biggest areas of life that we're going to have and the legacy we'll leave behind for the next generation. It almost seems like a footnote in this bigger picture, this bigger journey of our lives. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting point. It really is. I'm not sure why it's true. I agree that there is definitely a vast under-representation of education on that front.
Speaker 1:I have to give this one some thought, honestly, because, like it's a true point, there really is not that much and you'll see, you'll see everyone's around. I mean, you look on Torah and there are definitely a lot of different shiurim that you can listen to that talk about Shonbais, and I haven't listened to all of them, I can't comment on the quality of the actual content, but I would say that there is definitely an awareness of Shonbais being something of importance. You know, you talk to any Chasen teacher. There are certainly, I think, on a certain mobile, there are certain community mandates. Like you talk to a Chasen teacher and, aside from learning the Halafas that are pertinent to marriage, you're also going to get some sort of a schmooze about, you know, making sure that you're nice to your wife and making sure that the home runs in a way which is peaceful and calm.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I've heard that there are a lot of teachers who will really go like, on a more broad scale than there are some who will really go into the more nitty-gritty details, like to the point of like making sure you put the cat back on the toothpaste, and things like that, which, quite honestly, like it sounds funny, but I think there are many people who, when they're living the single life whether they're in Ishiba, they're out of Ishiba, whatever it is they're doing, it's just not really something that necessarily pops into their mind. So it's important to hold that. I think that there is definitely a lack of, I guess we could call it continuing education, so to speak. I mean, I know as a social worker and required to do a certain number of continuing education credits for every renewal period, I'm sure as a lawyer.
Speaker 1:There's also yeah most professions, I think, have something like that, and I heard this amazing line I think it was in the name of Rivershye Kron, but I could be wrong, so I apologize if it's not him but something along the lines of there's no, there's no licensing requirement to be a parent, and I think, on a very similar level there's, for some reason, there's no licensing requirement to be married. And, yeah, there should be ongoing classes, there should be ongoing discussions in the community about different things that you can do, because, like okay, yeah, like I don't. I don't feel the need to relearn first grade math because that's not changing as much as I change as a person. One plus one is always going to be equal. To that being said, life goes on.
Speaker 1:We all change as people and if we all change as well, the information that we have been given when we first got married, or the assumptions that we come into relationships with that may have served us well, are subject to change. And unless you have a relationship which is like really super healthy and you can really just discuss all these things back and forth without any questions or problems whatsoever, you're going to have to have some way of kind of bring these out, figuring out how to kind of synchronize the new you with the new presence. You know I'm thinking all those lines.
Speaker 2:I'm realizing. Before we go further and really take even a deeper dive into this whole topic of what goes on in homes, especially when things go awry, when there's just a breakdown of a family system, I'm curious to just hear can you give us a very general understanding, maybe even like a working definition, of what is domestic violence? What is defined as violence in today's world, with microaggressions and people being hypersensitive? At which point do we say that something crosses a threshold of being so unacceptable that we could label it as domestic violence?
Speaker 1:So that's a great question and I like the textbook answer to that is like that. So the textbook definition of how we conceptualize domestic violence is that there's a pattern of behavior in which one party is using whatever power they have within the relationship to control the other one and there's the presence of fear based on that attempt to power and control. Like you think about it, in any relationship there's going to be a power balance, like for sure. Like just picture the analogy I like to use. Let's say you have a 500 pound bodybuilder whose wife is like four foot 10 and weighs 90 pounds. There's a very obvious power imbalance. It's like you know. But they have like the best relationship in the world. They're loving and caring and wonderful.
Speaker 1:So what's, what is it that makes it that that power and battle doesn't affect their relationship negatively? The answer is that there's safety. The answer is that there's trust and the answer is that there's a. There's a built up history, there's a foundation of the bodybuilder never using that power in a way which might hurt his wife. Now, if he would take that power, god forbid, and he would say you know, I'm going to use my power to control, I'm going to use it to enforce decisions and take away her ability to self direct in any one aspect of our relationship. That would be, that would be abusive.
Speaker 1:You know there are some some clinical researchers. John Gottman differentiates between what he calls character illogical abuse and situational abuse. Situational abuse is really more a matter of just not being able to regulate properly. For the most part, the abuse that we're talking about when it's an issue of power and control, that's character illogical. That's the kind of thing where a person feels it's my right to act like this, it's my responsibility to act like this, and it has really very little to do with the actual relationship. It's just that person, the abuser, having that mindset of it's okay for me to do this and therefore I will.
Speaker 1:The flip side of that Shalom by is where there's lack of communication, whether they don't have the ability to communicate properly. They have like all these, like issues that are kind of like blocking. There's no effort necessarily to have control the other one in a way which instills fear. There may be a pattern of behaviors in which they're not clicking. There's an incompatibility there. But it's not a matter of trying to control the other person by instilling fear and taking over the other person's life.
Speaker 2:Now I probably know that my focus is emogotherapy. That's the therapy work I did with my wife for about five years. It was an amazing journey, and that's the modality I very much turn to when I'm doing emog work, couples work, and so I'm very curious to know what about you? Do you find that you turn to a specific set of tools, approaches, modalities, and would love to hear more just what you found effective? Do you find different situations and need a different tool in the toolbox? Can you share more about what your approach is when you're doing couples work?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when I work with couples, I'm not a purist in any one particular modality. What I work with couples I mostly use EFT as a framework. It's Emotionally Focused Therapy. And the main focus of Emotionally Focused Therapy is that you want to build attachments, you want to be able to build a positive connection between the two. So very often what will happen in the run of the milk cup and I'm sure you've seen this in your work as well very often what will happen is you'll have one star off with one. Okay, here let's get a great example here.
Speaker 1:Somebody's wife asked them to take the garbage out. I apologize for using very stereotypical examples, but they work. Somebody's wife asked them to take the garbage out. Now she doesn't say it with any one particular like an alternation or anger or anything like that, but for whatever reason he takes that to mean can you take the garbage out? You never take the garbage out. You're always leaving the garbage there. I don't know, maybe she's asked them a few times before.
Speaker 1:So what he'll do is maybe he'll take the garbage out, but he'll kind of like stonewall her. He'll emotionally shut down, he'll withdraw. Now she senses that he's withdrawing. He's pulling himself out of the relationship emotionally, whatever that ends up looking like, and that threatens her, because she loves him, she cares for him, she wants that connection and the only way that she knows to try to get that connection back on a very subconscious level, the only way she knows to get that connection back is to actively pursue that connection. So she's actively pursuing, while he's trying to actively withdraw. The more she pursues, the more he withdraws, the more he withdraws, the more she pursues, and so on and so forth. There's just an active distancing between the two of them because they've created that cycle which leads to both of them being in a place where they can't repair.
Speaker 1:So what emotionally focused therapy is able to do is it's able to zoom in on one person's participation, understand exactly what that participation whether it's the pursuer or the withdraw, what it actually means to them, how it's helping them, and to get them to that, to an emotional state where they're experiencing all of those feelings. They're speaking not of the content, of what's putting them into those feelings, but of the process. When you ask me to take out the garbage, I feel like you're saying I don't do A, b and C and then the other part of the other spouse has the opportunity in session to meet them at that emotional point and give them whatever attachment means they needed at that point. So, whether it looks like, I certainly don't mean to reject you or your contributions to the way the House runs and I appreciate it and obviously all done in the state of honesty and authenticity.
Speaker 1:But when you have that one person who gets that emotional state and the other person is able to meet them there and give them whatever they need to feel supported, so that creates attachment, that creates a positive attachment and they're able to kind of it's not just a matter of role playing in the session, they're able to actually take that out of the session and build on that themselves. That's like obviously very much simplified, but that's the basic idea of how EFT works. There's a lot of skill-based stuff also. I know that OMAGO does a lot of scripted things. But just understanding how communication works, understanding what you want to talk about, understanding how to have an argument, these are things that I think many young people don't, many old people also honestly don't really think about. No, there's like a technique to it.
Speaker 2:There's like a technique of how to argue, of how to fight, and people sometimes For me personally, between the 12 years of doing divorce law and then spending now almost five years doing couples relationship coaching and therapy, I've definitely been going through sort of this ongoing common pattern list of what are the top triggers that put relationships into the stress, chaos and even drive them towards divorce. But I'll be very curious to hear from your work have you come to see a typical sort of common occurrences, frequently repeated events, and if you had to sort of boil it down, maybe today, to what would you say are the top three reasons that relationships experience hardship, distress and ultimately head into either therapy office or divorce lawyer's?
Speaker 1:office. So I think that there are three major ones and I'm sure if people google it you could find a bunch of different lists which are like top five, top 10, whatever. I think the top three that are pretty much consistent across the board are money, intimacy and parenting. Those are, I think, the three that are kind of like the top three that are pretty much always grounds for triggers. If anything, I would say it's even the money and the parenting maybe not as much. I think that in the Orthodox Jewish world there's a tendency to be okay asking for guidance on certain things Financing and parenting. I think people are more willing to ask for guidance, whereas in a realm of intimacy I think people are decidedly less likely to ask for guidance. So I would say that of those three, intimacy is potentially one of the top stressors in a relationship and it's kind of like you look at the intimacy factor very often that's kind of a litmus test for where the rest of the relationship is or is heading.
Speaker 2:Can you share a bit more about what is your actual sort of roadmap structure when you do go ahead and you begin working with a specific couple Meaning? Is there something that you present to them with that you start within the first session and then what winds up happening in subsequent session two, session three Is there a typical approach you like to take when you work with couples?
Speaker 1:So yeah, so the way I do it, this is part of the EFT modality. I think there are a couple other couples modalities that do it the same way or similarly. The way it works is the first session is together, the couple together, just get an idea of what they're willing to accomplish, what you just get a basic idea of who they are. The second and the third session on each one of them individually. And the point of this is there are a few points to this. One is just to get a personal history and there's no reason that the husband should have to sit through his wife's personal history. He's not for my purposes. I think he should know it, but not necessary. The other one is to screen for either active addiction or abuse. Those are both counter indicators to doing couples work.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to cut you up, but since not all listeners will be familiar with some of this terminology, you just clarify for those listeners who are not familiar with the term. What is counter indication? What does it mean when something's taking place in therapy that might be counter indication to the therapeutic process?
Speaker 1:Okay. So a counter indication means that you shouldn't do it. Basically, when we say that there's a counter indicator for that kind of work, it's like that. These are warning signs that it may not be either productive or safe on an emotional level to do this kind of work. And the reason? I'll take those two that I mentioned the abuse and addiction. There are similarities to it.
Speaker 1:So let's say you have active addiction as a presence in a relationship. So you have, let's say, the wife is a heavy drinker, let's say, and to the point where she's really addicted and something which is impacting her functioning, and it's not, and that's just what she is. She's stuck there and we feel bad for her. It's tragic that a person could be stuck in there and there's a lot of work to do to kind of be able to help her to dig out if that's the kind of work she wants to do but at the same time to be able to function as part of a couple. That's not where somebody who's in active addiction, it's not where their focus is and it can't.
Speaker 1:That kind of work is not, it's not able to be done when a person is in that kind of. When a person is in that kind of state. There's also the idea that somebody who's in, and there are a few different ideas. There's also the idea that somebody who's in active addiction is so much stuck in that addictive process that they may use the couple's counseling to support their addiction in some way, like to manipulate and to convince them to, to cajole and to try to get people along their way of thinking. In a similar sense almost there's the, the, the abusive relationship also. You can't really do couples work.
Speaker 2:Could you share with us a bit more and help all those who don't understand? Why is it that abuse in a relationship could also be counter indicative and get in the way of being able to the therapy? I mean one would think that if you have two willing participants, they should be able to work at it.
Speaker 1:So for a couple of reasons. One reason is that when you have, we can talk a little bit about just like what the, the, the profile of an abuser usually is. But, generally speaking, somebody who is abusive to his or her spouse is comes it knows how to come across as very polished, knows how to come across as very clean, very straightforward, very kind and generous potentially and there's a huge danger of presenting that way in session and getting the therapist to align with the abuser. Now, what that does is, first of all, you're not going to do any real good work if a therapist is aligned with some of you who's abusing his spouse. Secondly, what it does to the victim.
Speaker 1:Now, the victim has this mindset of like this is here's the authority, here's the professional. The professional is also saying, oh, that's the professional is also saying it's my fault. The professional is also saying, if you just do this, it'll change things and it won't, because the, the dynamic of abuse is such that again, it's not, it's not the victim. So, yeah, so that's what. One of the dangers of doing therapy is that the therapist is going to end up aligning with the abuser, which does terrible things to the victim.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious do you find just as a matter of good practice, do you want to ask at the first session both spouses and even presence of each other, or privately if there is abuse?
Speaker 1:in the relationship. So it's a good question. It's a very good question. I think it happens less often than it used to Think about it like this you're in your first session and say you're the therapist.
Speaker 1:You're in your first session with a couple and you don't know this, but one of them is an abuser and one of them is a victim. And you're asking them about what they're coming into. Fix, let's say they're coming in. They say like, oh well, we're always arguing or she never wants to. Whatever it is, he has complaints against her. And if she let's say she's the victim, she's the one who's being abused, she's not going to just come out and say it, because if she comes out and says it in session, what's going to happen when they get home? So she's not going to come out and say it in session. Abusers in general are able to hide it very well. They're very polished, they're very careful, they're very judicious about how they present their control. So it's very possible that just through an initial intake with both of them, it's not going to come across as blatantly abusive. You may see a very unhealthy relationship, but you're not necessarily going to see that kind of abuse. That's actually there.
Speaker 2:So what kind of indicators, signs, are you looking for as you're sitting there with them? What is it you're trying to observe, perceive that might indicate to you that there may be something going on here and, in fact, even possibly approaching abuse?
Speaker 1:So one of the things that you're looking for is, first of all, you're looking for just the tone of their interactions. Sometimes you'll have a couple that they can be fighting like cats and dogs, but you can sense that there's like an overall air of respect and like they really do love each other. They just can't stand each other. It's like you'll get that kind of. Sometimes you'll get like a controlling issue, like you'll ask one of the questions that look very nervously at the other one for answering. The answer itself might not be something which is like flag worthy, but the fact that one person has to check the other one before answering is something to take note of over time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes seeing this kind of relationship and this is the way we screen for abuse when we're dealing with an individual session is like gearing your questions towards the nature of the relationship, how they feel about their relationship, and if you're getting a feel that there is some sort of dynamic of power and control going on there, asking specific questions. Does he ever allow you to do this and this? Does he ever try to control it? Control it with us in this way, but asking questions that are kind of like dancing around that issue. Is there ever physical violence? Has there ever been forced sexual activity? Has there ever been financial control, Like asking, like just within the context of different behaviors? I think John Gottman actually has a screening tool that he uses, which has specific questions to flesh out your concept of fact.
Speaker 2:Can you share if you have any information you can offer us about, if there's any research studies about where abusive behaviors, patterns, personalities come from? Is there any links to childhood or any other correlations worth mentioning?
Speaker 1:So some of it definitely does come across as having been abused or having witnessed certain things as a child. In fact, terry Reel, a therapist, he's written certain some really good books. He has a book. You actually probably like this book. It's called the New Rules of Marriage by Terry Reel.
Speaker 1:So he actually has another book about male depression and it's called I Don't Want to Talk About it which is a fascinating look on how men experience depression, and he actually says that some abusive tendencies in his experience are the product of internalized depression, that they don't want to kind of like feel the depression that they have but they'll kind of like project it outwards and that projection outwards sometimes comes out as abusive behaviors. So that's like one aspect of it and like what I mentioned before, having this attitude of I deserve to act like this, I have a right act like this. That's coming from another person who's been working with abusive men for decades. He's worked with thousands of abusive men and he said that that's really the theme that comes across. Somehow they come up with this mindset of I deserve to act like this, I have a right to act like this, and it's almost. Sometimes it's a responsibility.
Speaker 1:This research is named Lundy Bancroft and that's the theme that he's noticed. So whether that comes up as being raised in a specific culture, I guess you could call it like ultimate extreme anti-feminine, feminist kind of kind of an attitude, whether it's having grown up in an abusive household, whether it's a matter of just not having picked up, for whatever reason, on balances in healthy relationships. That's, that's how it comes out.
Speaker 2:Is there any talk or initiatives being taken to educate the younger generation? Right? I mean, we are spending a lot of time discussing once people are already in committed relationships. What about starting early? What about informing our high school students, post high school, and just prepare them mentally, emotionally and just go for more education so that young adults could be more prepared going into probably the most sophisticated relationship their lives, which is a marriage?
Speaker 1:So it is something that we've been working on and one of the major programs that the Education Department does. Like, as we go into high schools and we talk to high school students, both on the boys side of the michita, the girls side of the michita, and we talk about healthy relationships. We talk about what they look like, we talk about being aware of the red flags, of what are going on in a healthy relationship or an abusive relationship might look like. We talk about the idea, and this, I think, is something that is so important and it's kind of hard to say how terribly it's impacted, I think, by culture in general. But the idea of trusting your feelings in the moment, like whether you want to look at it as part of Jewish culture as it exists right now, whether we want to look at it as part of existing within American culture as it is right now, there's such a big focus on, unfortunately, just going through the motions, on doing what you assume you need to do in order to achieve that degree of quote unquote success. That kind of thinking manifests in eating disorders. People who like assume the body image that people have to conform to it manifests in social anxieties. It manifests in a whole bunch of different things, and it also manifests in how people navigate relationship choices.
Speaker 1:It's like we're built with these feelings in us, right? You look at the neurology of it. People's emotional reactions register much faster than their intellectual reactions. So if I'm getting a feeling, I'm getting a feeling that I'm nervous about something. I may not be able to put a finger on it, but that signal is there and it's worth looking at, it's worth figuring out why I feel like that.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, many times people feel pressure to get married, go on another date, stick it out, power through, and that's with both young men and young women who are going through that process of trying to form relationships. You know whether it's a matter of what they're going to be seen as within their pure circle If I split up with this person, or what their family is going to say or what their community is going to say. So we're under a lot of pressure to not listen to those feelings, and that's really one of the things that we tell people. No, listen to the feelings. You're built this way for a reason. You're built to have these feelings and it's not there for no good reason.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the challenges I'm finding that people are facing is there's so much information out there In fact you almost want to say information overload and how are young people supposed to navigate and figure out who would be the appropriate person to speak with, who is the person with the appropriate knowledge, information that would be helpful to them and their journey?
Speaker 1:So that's the next step that we talk about. What we talk about after. We talk about the idea of acknowledging your feelings and trusting them and honoring those feelings. We talk about figuring out who you can talk to about it. One exercise that we do is we ask people to write down for themselves three people in their lives who they trust to have their best interests in life. Sometimes and fortunately sometimes people have parents who are able to do that. Sometimes people don't have them. Sometimes they'll turn to a teacher or a revenue or an older sibling or a rug or just a neighbor. People will be able to get some sort of an advice, get some sort of guidance when they're talking to somebody who they feel could really going to have their back and doesn't have their own agenda.
Speaker 2:In some ways, all roads lead to this foundational question that we need to sort of face directly, head on and really explore properly, and that is what is Shalom bias. What does it mean to have a peace in the home, harmony in the home, what does it? Look like. How do we create it? How do we work?
Speaker 1:on it.
Speaker 2:You share more about what your approach is to this topic? How do you teach it and give it over to couples?
Speaker 1:So I guess let's start with how the conceptualized, healthy Shalom bias. So in the beginning of your history as Shomah, there's this. There's one of the far shalom on the sitter, akhris. Akhris the Shalom. He asks on the first Gralchim during his Priyashma, the word say Osay Shalom, o'garay Asakval. Right, he made Shalom and created everything. So the question is, why did Hashem have to create the concept of Shalom? Why did you have to create peace and then make everything? Just make everything done. Snappering is done. So the answer that the Akhris the Shalom gives, I think, is very telling, really defines what the concept of Shalom actually is. Shalom talks about the idea that Hashem created the four basic elements earth, wind, water, fire and he used those four elements to create the entire universe. Right? So you look at those elements, they don't all coexist together. You can't have water and fire coexisting. What it means that Hashem created the concept of Shalom and then created everything was that in order to be able to use those four elements together, he had to create the concept of being able to have two opposite parts, two aspects of reality that could not by nature coexist. And creating the concept of Shalom means that now they can coexist. So now, so that's very nice for like thinking about elements and we'll take that into. Like Makas, barad and the Makas and everything that. There you go, it's great Shalom. But you want to put that into what it means to have Shalom bias. What does it actually mean to have Shalom bias? It means you have two completely separate individuals who, quite honestly, by nature should not necessarily be able to coexist and work together. And with that concept of Shalom, by using Shalom, they're able to come together. So what I take out of this is that it's not a matter of canceling yourself out in order to fit with the greater hold, and certainly there has to be some degree of compromise, but always being mindful of what you actually need in a relationship. The concept of Shalom bias doesn't mean having a quiet house. It means being able to take the individual parts that exist as independent parts and build something greater out of them. So that's the concept of Shalom bias and if you look at what marriage is through that lens, I think it really gets a massive take on what a marriage can really be. You're taking all your strengths, you're taking all your abilities, you're taking all your talents and all your strengths and weaknesses, everything and you're using your entire self, along with the entire self, that you have a person to build, something much bigger than yourself.
Speaker 1:And there's this idea that sometimes that's going to necessitate having certain uncomfortable conversations, which I think that that's something actually that the From Community I think could use some work on the idea of making people feel more okay with having uncomfortable conversations.
Speaker 1:Community really could maybe get a little bit better at it, encouraging young people to get used to having uncomfortable conversations.
Speaker 1:There's a reason they're called uncomfortable and whether it's a matter of asking a Revi to break up with a Chagrasa for you or convincing your teacher to switch your work assignment was, I don't like working with that particular girl, but there are so many growing up and this is like way before we've been thinking about marriage but growing up there's so many opportunities to acclimate ourselves to having uncomfortable conversations and becoming skilled at having uncomfortable conversations, becoming skilled at navigating conflict, that we're kind of doing a disservice to our kids if we don't help guide them through that. The thing I like to say about conflict is that conflict is a given in marriage. It's like I think John Gottman's research shows I think like 69 or 70% of conflicts will never actually be resolved. It's like over the court. And this is with the successful couples. He said he's done like decades of research in successful couples who have a great, amazing relationship. They will have the same arguments that they have when they're 20. They're going to be having with our own same argument.
Speaker 2:I can definitely attest to that. The experience I have in my work has also shown very much that successful relationships are not just couples who can resolve every single issue, but they're able to sit down and navigate around challenges, find a way to make peace with the fact that there's vows or there's significant others different from them, and they just want to celebrate those differences and enjoy each other and know where to be sensitive and how to carefully navigate towards each other. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:They've learned to navigate the conflict in a way which doesn't push each other apart and actually brings them closer together. So let's say, go back to garbage taking out husband that we mentioned before. Let's say that this is an ongoing thing he does not take out the garbage and his wife reminds him. So there are a couple of ways you could navigate that. You can navigate it by getting all upset and annoyed. You could also navigate it by like making a mutual joke out of it.
Speaker 1:So you use that conflict, you use that point of conflict to create a situation in which you're drawing each other closer as opposed to pushing each other apart. And obviously taking out the garbage is kind of a low key example. But I think even with the higher level conflicts that maybe are ongoing, there's a way to use the conflict. If you treat your spouse with respect and openness and I completely disagree with your opinion, but I respect your right to have it and I'm going to fight for your right to have an opinion that is completely opposite mine that's, using conflict to draw you closer together.
Speaker 2:Now it takes I find that one of the challenges that therapy presents and why some people do have reservations and even questions about effectiveness. Because people wonder, right, we sat there in those sessions and then we felt sometimes I went home empty handed and the question is what is it that you feel separates, you know, effective intervention versus not effective? What kind of tools, experiences need to be in place in order for it to be effective?
Speaker 1:So a big part of it is just having kind of also a script or a process or knowing what needs to be done. This is actually this is a question that comes up a lot in therapy. I'm like, okay, fine, I learned the skills, but now how do I actually do that? So part of it is actually having a script together, having an agreement of okay, this is what our process is going to be like for arguing. So, let's say, day one you come home from the session and you have that script in place and you both know that this is the process by right of actually going with that script and using that script.
Speaker 1:When a conflict comes up, you're already showing respect to the other person because you're saying, hey, I don't want to get stuck in that same rut that we've been in in the past and it over time you're going to lose the need to kind of have a script. You'll kind of own those behavioral patterns more to make it yours. You'll kind of like you'll be more comfortable ad-living if you want to use it, but it becomes yours and becomes something that it's not just a matter of like. I must be respectful to your opinion. Therefore I will say business. There's a real internalized feeling of like okay, I see that this works for and there's reciprocation also. It's not just a one-way street, it's that I'm trusting your opinion and you're also respecting mine. I'll tell you there was a great one See if I can find it here really quickly which I think conceptualizes what a safe relationship actually looks like. Just give me a second, I can see if I can try to find it here.
Speaker 2:Here we go.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to read off this quote to you. This is actually one of mine. I'm kind of proud of it. I will put into the relationship to the best of my abilities, in a way that helps you feel safe, secure, cherished and loved. I'll do this in a way which does not compromise my ability to feel the same way. So you think about that, and that's really, I think, a snapshot of what each member of couple has to have in mind when they're approaching this kind of work. It's that I want to feel safe and I want you to feel safe, and I'm going to do my utmost to make sure that you feel safe and loved and cared for, and I also need to do that with the assurance that you're going to do the same. So you have that commitment that goes a long way towards securing the relationship and clearing the ground to be able to do that kind of work.
Speaker 2:Do you find that people come in with different motivation levels, agendas, just things that are driving their behavior and drives them ultimately into our offices? You took more about what. What do you think is going on that motivates people to even seek out help in this area of life?
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, do do that. I mean, like very often, people will come into counseling because there's some kind of like an event that happens, like they realize that okay, that I can't continue though, and like this week and not this, and so there's already kind of that motivation and they're experiencing, hopefully in in this session, what it feels like to be able to share in a place which is non judgmental and non threatening, and that they're able to kind of get their feelings out and they're able to come to a point where they're able to experience some kind of respect for each other in the session and by being able to do that, they're hopefully able to bring that out of the session as well.
Speaker 2:So out of curiosity, it kind of comes up, maybe as a side point. I'm very curious to hear what do you find these young kids high school kids, post high school when you do these workshops and informative sessions with them? What kind of things did they share in terms of what they've learned growing up in their homes and how that perhaps shaped their views on marriage, relationship, etc?
Speaker 1:I like that last part. It's a lot of fun. So I'll tell you like this I am just to give a broader framework here. Very often when we have we have kids who go through our workshops they'll tell us about the things that they've seen at home and they'll tell us how they feel about what they've seen at home and how hopeless it makes them feel that this is what I've seen. And we give out these evaluations at the end of our workshops and very often we'll see people writing in the same. This is the first time they've ever actually had hope that I can actually have a healthy, solid relationship, because I've never seen one at home and I just thought this is what I'm destined for. So I think that's that.
Speaker 2:So these young kids, young adults who they had to do any of your workshops, do you find they usually fall into a specific sort of generalized category or do you find that they're different types? What are you have you been observing in terms of the types of backgrounds that kids are coming?
Speaker 1:in. It's a huge range. Well, we definitely we have some, some kids who are coming from homes that are not your stereotypical two parents home and maybe that's something that's impacted them. And we definitely have a lot of kids going through our workshops who, for all appearance, it seems to have a very functional, very nice home and a very nice family, and they might. And there are certain things that maybe these kids look at in their parents' relationship that maybe their parents aren't even aware of and say, oh, I don't really like that particular aspect and I don't really see a way to change it.
Speaker 1:So I would say like this as children, we are always like as humans, forget about us children. As humans, we're constantly learning, we're soaking up experiences from our environment, whether we're conscious of it or not, and as kids, we're doing that even more so. As children, the model that we follow for socialization and for relationships is based very much on the relationship we have with our parents and the relationships that we're seeing between parents. So it's not like a it's not like a foregone conclusion that if two parents do not get along and fight constantly, that their kids are going to be a mess. It's not a foregone conclusion at all because they're. As kids get older, there are going to be other influences on their behavior and attitudes and ideas about how relationships work. That being said, parents are the first teachers. So if parents do not get along well or forget about not getting along well, if they don't have an environment of respect for each other, then that's going to come across and it's going to be. It's going to create difficulties for their children later on, potentially.
Speaker 1:So I would say that you know, I think your Rebbe's advice not that he needs my house, but his advice is spot on yes, take care of your spouse.
Speaker 1:Part of taking care of your spouse is taking care of the family. Part of taking care of the family is being able to form a relationship with children. So I wouldn't say that it's all taking care of your spouse. I would say that you definitely have to make an effort to form a healthy relationship with your children. It's just part of their emotional development. This could sound very clinical, but part of the way we develop emotionally is by kind of trying things out with our parents. So if a parent is all in on showing his spouse respect and showing and having marital harmony which is amazing and beautiful for the world to see and they ignore their kids, then what they're doing is it's damaging for their children's emotional development and it's something that's going to end up playing forward, because the model that the children are learning is respect your spouse but ignore your kids. So it's something that kind of has to be like across the board.
Speaker 2:Do you know if there are any risk factors or indicators or correlations of what a child might have been exposed to that would play a significant role in their potential divorce once they are pursuing a relationship as adults?
Speaker 1:If I remember correctly, there is research that shows that it is one of the risk factors. Having been exposed to abuse as a child, it is one of the risk factors for both being an abuser and being a victim. Obviously, there are a lot of different aspects that are going to come into play that may impact how things go, but it is one of the risk factors.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like there is an appropriate moment or a bit too late moment in terms of when intervention should take place?
Speaker 1:So I personally have the opinion that starting these kinds of interventions whether it's education or saying, are you going to therapy, anything like that If you're starting when the guys started, when the young people are starting to date, that's already. I'm not saying it's too late, but it's late. On the one hand, we want to be sensitive to people who take that back. We want to be able to make sure that as many people as possible get into safe and healthy relationships. Now, that may mean looking at somebody's background. That may mean having a serious talk about mental health. That may mean and this is not just in terms of abuse, I think this is just in general people have to be open. People should be open to these kinds of discussions, even though it is again, it's an uncomfortable conversation potentially, but these are things that people need to be aware of and people have a responsibility to be open about these things to an extent.
Speaker 1:If a person is going out and they know that and Ashatlan knows that one side or the other has had a very difficult family situation, I don't think it's an unfair question to say I know that your family has had a difficult time. I'm wondering what you're doing to make sure that you're okay. I don't think that's an. You know. It obviously has to be phrased with tact and has to be phrased carefully and we don't want to give anyone's information away without there being a reason for it. But there will come a point where it's something that should be discussed and should be open to, which I think kind of speaks to a larger issue which also fortunately, is improving, I think, over the past 10, 20 years. But the idea of destigmatizing mental health struggles, you know. Again, I think the more we talk about these things, the more it's part of the community conversation, the more likely it is that people will be able to actually, first of all, get the help they need and, secondly, talk about it so others can help they get the help they need.
Speaker 2:Do you think we could also make the case for the fact that it's not only the lack of education and just informing young people about relationships what committed relationship will demand of them, but also, just in general, just how to train social and emotional skills, how they're developed and help people understand how to use them?
Speaker 1:I agree 100% and I think that that's also part of a bigger discussion about how we do social emotional learning in. You know, whether at schools, at home, I know like over the past few years I think social emotional learning has become more of a buzzword, even in Yeshivas. But part of what needs to be done, I think that part of this is something that parents need to be more mindful of. Part of it is integrating these things into the way we teach and the way we learn in schools. Let's say you have a second or third grader who is learning about healthy assertiveness, right. So that's second or third graders now experimenting with like oh, I don't really like something that my friend did, so I'm going to say something to him, I'm going to assert a boundary, I'm going to talk about what I'm comfortable with and what I'm not. So that's second and third grader who's successful in being able to do. That sets a precedent for, in 20 years, when they're married, talking respectfully with a spouse about what they're okay with and what they're not, and that sets a precedent.
Speaker 1:And let's say, god forbid, somebody is in a situation in which their spouse or person they're dating raises serious red flags. The person who learned to be assertive and healthy is going to have a much higher degree of self-awareness than they might have had they not learned to do that in second grade. And if they have that healthy degree of self-awareness, they'll first of all be more willing to bring it up directly to the person. Which is pretty much like when you have a concern about somebody else's behavior and you know obviously we're not looking at somebody who has like a history of being abusive towards you, it's not suggested to speak directly with the person that there's a fear for safety. But if you have a concern about something that somebody else is doing, the proper thing to do is to address it to that person, because if it's between the two of you, you are the only two people who can really address the issue and you learn that stuff as kids and it filters forwards.
Speaker 2:Do you find that there could be like a mutually exclusive reality where we face where between being able to make choices and free will while at the same time being able to sort of face life as it comes at us and just say that I'm exactly what I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 2:And therefore, this is exactly what I'm supposed to endure experience. I'm supposed to be in this relationship, or could there ever be a time where I could responsibly say I'm not supposed to be in this relationship? And part of the work I have to do my start list is to actually understand better what's going on and even potentially consider walking away.
Speaker 1:So I think both can be true. I think both can be true. I think Revolta said there was a fascinating one of his vaadam that I read a long time ago.
Speaker 1:He basically spent this whole like a good couple of pages describing about how every single individual who's created has to keep in mind that you're placed in this world, in this society, in this setting, in this environment, everything you brought all sorts of like major sources to back this up, like just like accepting that you are unique, you are singular to existence and you're the only person who could accomplish what you need to accomplish in the place and time that you are. Then you use it to prove how you shouldn't complain about your dorm made. But I think the idea is like okay, we are here for a reason, we are here and this is where we are and there's a plan for us being in a situation where the reality is such. That being said, that doesn't leave us of the obligation to do what we can to try to make things better.
Speaker 1:I think that, to a large degree, having Rebeim, having people in Nishivas who are responsible for being machanik boys towards marriage and not just Rebeim either, I think, parents as well being able to focus on having discussions with both boys and girls really about how relationships work and being able to model healthy relationships and being able to parent in a way which models healthy relationship tools. I think those are all. They've certainly gotten better. I mean, we can't, like open a Shpachal magazine without tripping over some, you know, parenting course or marriage course. I think that's great and people are definitely interested, I think, in trying to improve the relationships that they have. And, that being said, I think we can always do better.
Speaker 2:There's always more that we can do, there's always like you find that in the mainstream issue of the world, there is what's in place that helps boys develop a sense of attachment and you know sort of like, as attachment theory explains, you know, the idea of creating healthy bonds, healthy connections, that then boys, as they become men, they know how to share themselves and hold space for their wives with their children.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it necessarily has to be couched in attachment theory, even though I personally, I have to love attachment theory. I think it's great stuff. What I will say, though, is that there is, I think, built into pretty much most Yeshivas that are around these days. There is built in concept of the Musser Seder, and I think, by and large, musser Seder is no longer what it used to be in Europe. When people will talk about learning Musser by us and having actual Musser groups to talk around behavioral improvement and working on me, those and things like that, I think, if we were able to bring back that concept, a Musser Vahd, an actual group of people who would sit down and say like, okay, you know what? Yeah, we're going to learn the CLC show and we're going to know it, but we're not just doing this as an academic thing that I can quote you. The wrong child left and right.
Speaker 1:We are going to look at costs. We are going to look at costs and we are going to be brutally honest with ourselves and with each other about what it takes to actually channel that particular class that we have, what it takes to actually use these different me-dos that we have in order to make ourselves into better people.
Speaker 2:I personally find it really special and really amazing when I see married men who join groups, support groups where they could explore properly their relationships, or even espouses to go to workshops or to go to therapy as a date, just to experience deeper connection of the relationship and sort of step out of their grind of the day to day life and experience true connection.
Speaker 1:I think that's beautiful, I think that's an amazing thing and the whole thing. We should have more people doing things like that. I've actually it's funny about like I've long been of the opinion that 12-step groups like Alcoholics Anonymous Style 12-step groups could very easily be adapted to. Mr Seder, whether it's initiatives, whether it's for Balabantam, like us. It's such an amazing idea like admitting powerlessness over costs, admitting powerlessness over type up, whatever it is that you want to admit powerlessness over, but the idea of actually focusing and really being introspective about the real issues that we face as human beings and being able to actually do things like that that could be so powerful to be a real game changer.
Speaker 2:Can you talk a little bit about the 12-step program and do you see its relevance overlap with Torah values and Torah Shacham?
Speaker 1:It's a very versatile program and like, if you look and if you look through like the actual Mr Sfar, you'll see that the 12 steps they really do bar. I don't know if they consciously borrowed it, but there's a lot in there that is very much in line with Jewish Muslim thinking. I think Brevetorsky actually wrote an article about how, yeah, as in it very well might have been just the idea of being able to come to that kind of realization. It's a very powerful thing.
Speaker 2:So if any of our listeners are interested to follow up by asking more questions, we'll show that's the best way to reach them to find you, so I have my email address.
Speaker 1:That's probably actually the easiest place I can go to is yykraus at gmailcom. If you're interested in learning more about Shalom Task Force programs, the best place to send that is info at shalomtaskforceorg and Shalom Task Force and me actually both on Instagram or on Facebook. I don't orgorg, yeah, so we can find us that way. I can also give you if people this is actually important that people are struggling with in their relationships so people can call and or text for WhatsApp to our hotline. We actually started the text line over the lockdown period when people were home and for many people it just wasn't safe to actually make a phone call. We were able to work in like actual texting WhatsApp capabilities. We also have a portal, so I'll give you the number for that.
Speaker 1:The hotline number is 888-883-2323. And we have if you text us outside of hours I think we're open 10 to 10, monday through Thursday and Friday. We have some. We have less hours. We think we're up from Fridays also, but if you text us not during hours, then we respond with a text that says what the hours are and the hotline also has certain hours. It's a good service and for people who need somebody to actually hear their story and give them some sort of just a space to speak, and maybe you can get some clarity about how to proceed. If that's what they want to do, then it's a great service and it's a good opportunity.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for taking this time to sit down and have this really important, profound conversation. It was really eye-opening, intriguing and really helpful. I'm sure it's going to help many listeners.
Speaker 1:Pleasure.
Speaker 2:This is so much fun. Thank you for joining us today. For questions, comments, topics you'd like to hear more about, or to try our 24 week relationship challenge, email us at relationshipreimagined at gmail.