What if you had the power to navigate the complex world of dating and marriage, even amidst challenging times? This episode uncovers authentic ways to balance personal joy and the guilt and stress of our current reality, drawing from the wisdom of Jewish discussions and expert advice. We tackle the concept of dating and the the powerful tools that can help us hold onto seemingly opposing emotions simultaneously, providing comfort and stability in an uncertain world.
Have you ever felt stuck in the middle of the dating process, uncertain about what to do next? We share the story of a bocher who experienced this very thing when he had to leave his dating journey due to reserve duty, throwing light on the complexity of love and life in times of conflict. On this journey, we also dive into the heart of emotional resilience, exploring the four stages of dating and how they can be managed in service of Hashem. We dismantle the walls around emotional vulnerability and intimacy, exposing the raw power of connection and honesty in relationships.
Lastly, we unearth the secret to maintaining healthy boundaries in dating, discussing the importance of openness and honesty with potential partners. Walking through the four stages of dating, we amplify the need for deep connections beyond the superficial, and the courage it takes to make that leap of faith in a relationship. Our conversation concludes with a heartfelt note of gratitude for those on the frontlines, guiding us through these challenging times. Tune in for a deeply enriching and enlightening journey into love and relationships, with practical insights for navigating challenging times with grace and hope.
Leorah Elin can be reached at: leorahelin@gmail.com (Shadchan and Dating coach)
Rachel Burnham can be reached at: rachel@d8gr8.com (Dating coach)
What if you had the power to navigate the complex world of dating and marriage, even amidst challenging times? This episode uncovers authentic ways to balance personal joy and the guilt and stress of our current reality, drawing from the wisdom of Jewish discussions and expert advice. We tackle the concept of dating and the the powerful tools that can help us hold onto seemingly opposing emotions simultaneously, providing comfort and stability in an uncertain world.
Have you ever felt stuck in the middle of the dating process, uncertain about what to do next? We share the story of a bocher who experienced this very thing when he had to leave his dating journey due to reserve duty, throwing light on the complexity of love and life in times of conflict. On this journey, we also dive into the heart of emotional resilience, exploring the four stages of dating and how they can be managed in service of Hashem. We dismantle the walls around emotional vulnerability and intimacy, exposing the raw power of connection and honesty in relationships.
Lastly, we unearth the secret to maintaining healthy boundaries in dating, discussing the importance of openness and honesty with potential partners. Walking through the four stages of dating, we amplify the need for deep connections beyond the superficial, and the courage it takes to make that leap of faith in a relationship. Our conversation concludes with a heartfelt note of gratitude for those on the frontlines, guiding us through these challenging times. Tune in for a deeply enriching and enlightening journey into love and relationships, with practical insights for navigating challenging times with grace and hope.
Leorah Elin can be reached at: leorahelin@gmail.com (Shadchan and Dating coach)
Rachel Burnham can be reached at: rachel@d8gr8.com (Dating coach)
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce conversations where we analyze, navigate and troubleshoot all stages of your romantic life. I'm your host, igor Meisselman, a divorce attorney turned relationship coach. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, and I'm back with my two wonderful guests, a matchmaker and a shot, and we are meeting, not well, matchmakers are shot hands, it's all good, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm not dating coach, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Also, you're stuck, I have to interrupt at this point. I'm doing so much dating coaching. I think you should just call both of us shot hands and dating coaches, like I just think it's easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think so. Shot hands and dating coaches and I'm meeting with relationship experts, call us whatever you want. Just call me a bad name and I'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so I was supposed to meet with two people who wear many hats in the world of dating.
Speaker 2:Many shades of.
Speaker 1:Rachel Borheim and Leora Eland Thank you very much for coming back on the show and, of course, we're meeting during really challenging times right now in the lives of many people, particularly Clive Sorrell, and how deeply everyone is affected.
Speaker 1:I am on many mental health WhatsApp chats and the whole day is just bombarded with discussion about where people could get resources for anxiety, stress, struggle with sleeping, struggles with just being able to be functional in day to day life, and it's amazing how even the therapists are seeking these services. It's nobody is immune from what is taking place right now in the world and, of course, life must go on, and I'd like to preface with amazing insight from the perfect sky. And question was posting him. There were families who did not want their sons to date and this is we're talking about 1850s, 1860s, 1870s because during the Russian Empire, the czar would conscript into army everyone, including Jewish boys, and so there was a fear if you go to the army, you might never come back, and so there were people who stopped making Sheduchim for their children and the question was posed to have its time what is the proper approach during these times?
Speaker 1:And of its time, brought as a proof story of Miriam and her father, anrom, in Egypt, and said absolutely, you must date as a mitzvah in the Torah to Revuto of a family, and there's a famous concept of the Khadakav Shedurah, ma'an al-Lamalak. We don't ask questions about what Hashem is doing in Shemayim. We were given the Torah and the mitzvahs and our job was to move forward and to have families, and so we're sitting here today to discuss this really fascinating topic of well, what should I be doing? I'm single. I'm really stressed out what's going on in Erzisrael.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering what's going to happen with my family, friends, whether they're sort of like directly in the front lines or in some other way close to the borders, wherever they may be, and people are struggling. People are asking these questions, you know, according to where they are in their stages of life, and so I'm really excited to have this opportunity to talk to both of you about what should be people's mindsets, what should be their approaches to going through this process, particularly in a stressful situation such as now. So maybe we could just start just very generally and maybe, if you both want to share either what you're already hearing from the singles you're interacting with or a general advice you're giving in terms of what is the healthy mindset, what is the right way to approach dating during these very troubling times.
Speaker 3:I'm going to jump in if that's okay. So, yes, this is definitely number one question on everyone's mind Do I date? How do I date? If I do, do I keep it solemn, boring, uneventful? I feel guilty. I feel so guilty. People are, you know, dying in Erzisrael. People are scared, people are unsafe. How could I be enjoying dating?
Speaker 3:So something that works very well for me when I'm feeling a lot of stress and anxiety over this topic, as most of us are, is to try to take that stress and anxiety and turn it outward as opposed to inward, and so what I mean by that is that there's a tendency to, you know, depressed, anxious, stressed out, loss of sleep, cry. None of those things are actually helping to move us forward. In the bigger picture, imagine if our army, if all of our soldiers, were depressed, crying and paralyzed in fear and pain in their beds. We would not be able to fight a war. And so the videos that we see are the soldiers dancing and singing and being besimcha and eating together and laughing, because they need to keep that, those spirits, up, they need to keep the morale high, otherwise they won't be able to fight. And, as I read somewhere, this isn't just a war of guns, it's a war of the mind. We are so in control of our mind even when we're in control of nothing else. And so what works for me is, instead of turning that pain and stress inwards and just feeling and absorbing that pain and being, you know, just kind of paralyzed in pain, to be able to turn it outwards and say what can I do to help the Jewish people, to help everyone move forward.
Speaker 3:And for me personally, what I can do is to encourage people to date, because we have lost so many beautiful homes in Klyosaral, and so now our job and my job is to help rebuild as many as we possibly can, and that means not being paralyzed in fear, not being, you know, caught in despair and depression and anxiety. That is not going to help us date, that's not going to help us keep our spirits high, that is not going to help us get married and that's not going to help us rebuild Klyosaral. And that's really what we need to do. We need to face our enemies by saying you will not destroy us and we will rebuild. And so that is what works well for me. It gives me inspiration when I'm able to see that, with that stress and pain and anxiety, everything that everyone's going through. We can really have an impact by helping couples come together.
Speaker 3:And something that I've seen is, even when couples are going through their individual pain while they're dating, sharing it with another person is very helpful. So I'll tell couples go out, discuss it, have conversations about what's going on. Don't avoid the elephant in the room. That is a great topic. Share your pain and when we're vulnerable and we share our pain, that brings people together.
Speaker 3:So I found that in the past you know whatever, it is less than two weeks being able to just drop the facade of who I pretend to be or who I posture to be and get real with real issues. People are being very open, very vulnerable. It's creating a lot of connection and it's also forcing people to realize what is really important. Is it really important that he went to this issue for who wears that hat, or he wears that color shirt or, you know, I had in mind that he should be six two and he's only six feet right or is it more important that we have a deep connection? We know our values. Family is what's important.
Speaker 3:Rebuilding rebuilding clausal is what's really important being focused on who I am as a person and who I want to become and how much better I can make myself through these times is what's important.
Speaker 3:And if I share those common goals and values, you'd be surprised how much further dating can go than when we get stuck on the minutiae.
Speaker 3:You know, eric Cistrell I'm not going to go into this, but, as we all know was very, very divided before this happened and everyone was very caught up in all of their differences. And now, since the attack, all we can focus on is our similarities and what brings us together and the actus and the love that we can share. And I think that that actually is a tremendous message for dating, because how many more relationships can we build when we don't get stuck on the minutiae and the insignificant and the unimportant and we focus on the big picture of goals, of values, of clausal, of building home, family, children. You know, seeing the good, another person. I think that that is the most important message, at least for me, that I take away from this and what I can do to contribute and obviously we all contribute in different ways, but I'm very, very pro everyone trying to get out there and date and rebuild as many families and clausal as we can.
Speaker 1:Is it you want anything to this?
Speaker 2:Or I think that I think that this time is very startling and I think that a lot of people are uncomfortable. I know myself that from my own personal experience. You know, going day to day through the regular schedule of daily activities, family yantif, shabasim, plans of going away for Shabas, if it's somebody's birthday, taking them out to eat, or there's just, there's a lot of, there's a lot of discomfort that's coming into place right now where people are having a confusion in their mind Am I allowed to be happy? Am I or should I be sad? Or how do I balance everything? Because we really want to be balanced, we want to move forward correctly, and I think that there's a few answers to understanding this discomfort. Number one is everyone's uncomfortable right now. I have a really good friend. She's a principal and she is like dynamite. She knows how to take children, parents, anyone. She comes into contact with her staff and she has a really great saying. She says get comfortable getting uncomfortable. Now, nobody likes discomfort. Discomfort is, it's different, it's not smooth, wearing your sock with the line in the wrong spot and you're like sensory issues. Oh my gosh. You know, but the truth is we know from Rebi.
Speaker 2:Dr Avraham J Torski has a clip, a video clip, on the lobster, and if I had the lobster. As he grows, he needs to shed his shell because it gets very tight on him. So what he does is he sheds his outer shell and then hides inside some racks until he's strong enough to develop a new outer shell in his new body size, which is now greater and larger than it once was. And he said, like had he gone to a doctor, perhaps the doctor would have prescribed him some medication for his discomfort and he would never be able to go through the process of the development in order to become bigger, greater and stronger. Let's start getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. We need to recognize that there's a lot of growth and a lot of change. You know, as we've been experiencing the past few years, life is going to be different. You know, moving forward with these previous experiences that we've had going on in this world, but it's part of a growth and a development.
Speaker 2:Now, that being said, we have a lot of people that don't realize that they are not alone. I actually had somebody called me up for a coaching session last week and he just said I just, I'm just down, my spirits are down, I don't feel good. I feel like I feel like I'm doing something wrong by dating. But like after a whole day of work and then getting ready and then driving an hour and a half to the girl and then I see her, it's like I'm feeling uncomfortable, like I'm not even. I feel wrong. I feel like I'm supposed to be doing this.
Speaker 2:So to that I answered him two things. Number one you are not alone. You are not the only person going through this. So I'm happy that you're reaching out for support and to have a voice, so you don't suppress these feelings and eventually feel like why am I so overwhelmed? He said why should I be? He said but you know, mr Eland, why should I be overwhelmed? I have my job, I have my family right, shouldn't I be okay? And I said are you okay? And he said no, my spirits are really. It's really hard. And I said and that's okay, call you so. All our Ravens, all of us, we all love each other like our own. We're all one in the same. Obviously, clearly, it's going to be hard on you. If you didn't have any feelings of sadness going on, I'd be very concerned that you're like getting ready for another date. Oh yeah, here we go Driving out there, it's sort of like, where's your heart? At the same time, kashem doesn't expect you to be in mourning, even though they're like our brothers and sisters, right, and we're going through it with them, not alone. You have strangers showing up to Levias, you have strangers showing up to Shibahomes and they're like I'm not a stranger, I'm your brother, I'm your sister, right. This is a loss for all of us and that's the power of Call you so and it's true. But, like you said before, there was guidelines and we need to follow the guidelines and the Torah the Torah, has the guidelines. It's a blueprint that's laid out perfectly for us.
Speaker 2:We had many years ago in Waterbury, connecticut, for those who remember, we had a very bad blackout and we lost power and everything. The Shivas were set up in New York and here and there, and we had Bahram that were in an accident and unfortunately, they were on their way back to Yeshiva, coming back home to the Yeshiva grounds, and we lost to our Bahram and it was very hard on the community and it was very hard on the families, much more so. As a community, we didn't know what to do and the rest of the Shiva, ravarn Kaufman, called together a gathering for all the women and he said the following words, which were fascinating and actually really I hope this is going to help everybody in life as much as it was able to help us here. Ravarn Kaufman said that he spoke about the mylas of these boys and then he went on to what are we supposed to do with all this information? Very hard, very overwhelming, he said. A buck went over to him and said Rabbi, I have a chasna tonight and I just, I just can't go. I'm too sad, I can't go. And he said you have an acharist to go to the chasna. He said but how could I go if I feel this way?
Speaker 2:The power of Yidd is fascinating. The power of Yidd is to be able to hold onto two seemingly opposite feelings and emotions simultaneously at the same time. I'm allowed to be happy and sad at the same time. We say Shema Kholenu. We scream out Hashem for help. We say Rifa Enu Hashem, we need you to heal Right. And then we say Maudzema naach nula Hashem, you are everything you are. This is so interesting you seemingly opposite emotions going on simultaneously. The messages I could give over to help people is that being uncomfortable, feeling like something else is going on. That's hitting your level of your happiness. That's okay, of course. You're human, you have feelings and you're not alone and a little, a little secret. Hundreds of people are going through this, especially in the dating field. That's number one and it's okay. And you're allowed to be sad and you're allowed to say okay. And now when I go on the date, I'm going to turn on my. You know I'm going to get into the mood of the focus on the dating.
Speaker 3:Even you're feeling the same thing.
Speaker 2:It's really true, it really really is true. But two things I do want to say. Number one is that my son in Yeshiva said the following. We said has Yeshiva gone? We have a son that we sent back. He's in the Yeshiva, at a town in Amasipta and he said oh, it feels like, feels like yellow. So innocently we responded oh, because you're coming home in four weeks. Like not, does mom's not? He said no, just, everyone's really a little more serious, like everyone's on their best behavior. It's sort of like no one's, no one's really. They're like you know, chilled back, typical self, it's just, you know. So that's number one. It's a very, very, very normal, you know normal thing.
Speaker 2:And the second thing that I wanted to say is that, having having this understanding of what's going on, we need to understand that not only is there a mitzvah, you know to build homes, and not only is there an understanding that the Torah is the perfect blueprint for us, with the guidelines of when we're supposed to mourn and when we're supposed to be happy, right, we need to know that there's a time and a place for everything in this world. So to this I say the following for everything that's happening in Eritrean, for the amount of homes that they broke. We are completely determined to build homes. Go out there, go date, go, continue. If you find your zivah, get engaged, get married and continue to build. Bayis naman bismcha, because this is the antidote to everything going on. The spirits are strong. The spirits are great If the chay'alim and all the videos that we're watching can be devastated and sad and super, super, super happy at the same time.
Speaker 2:I spoke to a bacher who was in the middle of dating a girl who I set him up with, and he had to leave because he was in the reserves, because he was the head of a unit not so long ago and he had to leave America and he went back to Eritreal in the middle of dating a girl and we don't know when they'll be able to pick it up again. But I want to tell you what he said. He said he called me from the. He called me from from where he was located with his current unit and he said we are going to win, we know we are going to win.
Speaker 2:The issue isn't if we're going to win, we know we're going to win and that positivity if he, if he at sahal, you know, in places that we can't even begin to comprehend or understand what he is, the conditions of what he's, what he's going through. If he could say that, we could be okay, we could say we must have that same spirit like he has. I might not have that spirit internally, but you know what? Yes, he has that spirit. Let's have that spirit also.
Speaker 1:I'm just, I'm just processing. You said so much, so many things that like really again you could, you could make fun of for being the therapist in the room.
Speaker 1:I need to process, I constantly need to process Even this, this such amazing idea of of saying to yourself wait, what I'm experiencing right now, that's actually normal, just to even make peace with that idea. It's normal that I'm experiencing this. The challenge is is that when we live in times of peace, and on top of that we live in times of comfort, such as living in a Western world, we're just not, you know, we're not trained, equipped, conditioned to absorb such a drastic change in, you know, in our external environment. There's a reason why they call these things adjustment disorders because we're struggling, adjusting, and especially to something like war. War is a massive adjustment, it's a massive trauma and when everything is comfortable and I'm just used to my, you know, relatively smooth, flowing life, to all of a sudden be thinking, hearing, seeing that, you know, death is just just very, very deeply unsettling. But I think that you're right that that is definitely calling, especially for Jewish people to to live while holding both of those, those ideas.
Speaker 1:I was actually listening to a share last week from my right, Vera Gerchfeld was saying in the river, so so long that people very commonly, you know, try to offer explanation of with what attitude did Avram go up to bring up his son Yitzhak, you know, and one opinion will say he was going to Silva right, probably like a facilitation type of a shot, another one that saying no, there's no, depressed, maybe let's try, and he says no, no, he said there's a measure that says, while he was walking, there was a tear going down his eye and a determination in his hand and he was holding both feelings because, I said, wants us to serve him. With all of these emotions, all of these things we're experiencing right now, and I find that this is what's very much missing for people as they're going through these mindsets, the feelings you feel God gave those for a reason.
Speaker 1:We have this artillery of a mixed emotions that is sitting there waiting to be activated, right. The only question is is are we going to be in charge and we'll decide where these emotions should go, or are they going to sort of take us captives and an old son right? These waves of overwhelming emotions and people like sharing, you know, at least when they share with me, you know just almost like out of control experience. It becomes really important to be able to sort of take the time to pause, process the feelings and then reframe back into one. This is normal. It's okay to be going through this.
Speaker 1:A lot of people are going through this. And then two is this is not the way we're supposed to express serve Hashem, supposed to serve him with the old emotions that were given. And taking the time to cry is part of serving Hashem and taking the time to laugh is part of serving Hashem. One doesn't take away from the other, one doesn't minimize or reduce significance of the other is just being able to pause and say this is the human experience to experience all range of these emotions and to be able to, with our minds, to use the say, ho and das, to know how to direct which emotion at which point.
Speaker 2:Right. So it's actually fascinating because, to bring this full circle, rachel said that it's important that in terms of your feelings and your voice, to let it be outwards and not inwards, so to take that to the next level. That explains that when there is that discomfort right from within, we have to be able to identify it, come to a peace with it and allow it to surface. It has to rise to the surface. So what does that mean? So I have an understanding from Revleichter, from the Mashi'i Ch'imet near Yushalayim. Revleichter came and spoke in our community one time when there was somebody who was very sick and it was a very scary time and it hit the whole community. For those of you that are not familiar, waterbury, connecticut, is a community that's about 20-something years old, but nonetheless it's still a small community where almost everybody knows each other. So he came and he spoke and he said something fascinating. He said that a lot of times when hardship strikes Bar-Hashem, as a community, everyone comes together take upon different talkanos and different yannim to do as a unit, he said. But what's also important is to listen to yourself and to see where does it talk to me, what about my Neshama? What does my Neshama have to do to be attacking what it's feeling right now. So he said, for example, it was very humorous. He said does it talk to me in my arm? Does it talk to me on my side? Does it talk to me in my leg? And his point was pay attention to where with this person is going through this hardship that this woman is going through right now. Where does it talk to you? And for one person, a response could be she wants to have an eye and type on everything. Somebody else might choose Shmyr Talashon. Somebody else might choose Tafila, someone else might choose Amuna. Someone else might choose to be more careful in terms of their Mycena Tadaka. Someone else might choose to call their parents more often. Someone else might choose to do something very out of their comfort as Ahasah, because they really want to make some sort of carbon as a host for this person.
Speaker 2:If we would start recognizing that not only is it okay to have a voice, but the intention is to have a voice. The intention is to say where is this talking to me? What's going on in Eretz, israel? How am I going to connect? How am I going to be a person who grew from this, who, yes, right now I'm vulnerable. Yes, right now I don't feel good. Yes, right now my shell has been shed. What am I going to do so that I can come out as a person who's developed, as a Fkhs for Krali Israel and for everybody? And I think that this really connects strongly to dating because, in terms of being open, being outward, being vulnerable, allowing yourself to connect with another person, I think there's a lot to add on this and, rafa, I'd love for you to expand on this concept.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I love this. I love this idea you're bringing up and I want to focus on the getting out of our comfort zone area and me being just a practical brain, I always kind of bring things back to you know, practical application. That's just kind of how my mind always works. What can we do in dating during these times Because, yes, we are dating as we're going out there. What can we do to a enhance the way we date, be more focused and efficient in the way we date and get outside of our comfort zone? I'd love to just talk about a few examples of what we can practically do to get outside of our comfort zone. So I think we all have those switches in our brain when we go out and I meet somebody and like nobody talks about it. But we all have this switch where I go out and I see him or her and all of a sudden like no, not my look, not my personality, not my Ashkhafa, just not me, it's not my type, not for me, right? And so we politely smile on the date and we sit there and we do our due diligence, look at the time, like okay, how long do I have to sit here to call this like an appropriate mental state. Okay, two hours and one minute I'll sit there, I'll smile, behave myself, right, but then I'm out of there because you know why, in those first five seconds or that first five minute conversation, the switch was shut off. I am not interested, this is not for me, and I'm done so physically. I'm sitting there on the date, mentally, emotionally checked out.
Speaker 3:What if? What if? In a way in which to get comfortable with the uncomfortable, we were able to say to ourselves I'm sitting on the state anyway, I'm sitting in front of a boss Torah, a bent Torah. What if I just by chance decided to keep the switch on? What if I just by chance I have to sit there anyway? Right, I'm going to be here anyway, I got nowhere to go. I can't just in five minutes say hi, you're not, my look got to go, can't do that, right, that's rude.
Speaker 3:So what if I pushed myself to keep that internal switch on and say I'm just going to be open, I'm just going to get to know this person? I'm just going to say is there anything about this person that I could really respect, that I could be inspired by, that I can connect to? What if I did that? And I'm not even telling anyone that you have to commit to a second date, because you've already switched off that switch and in your mind there is no second date. But what if I just allow that switch to stay on, to be open? What could happen if I'm sitting there anyway? What if I? What could happen in terms of how I can connect to someone? What I, what good I can see in someone, what could they could see in me? And what if they did the same thing? How much could come of that when we are?
Speaker 2:actually what's the answer? But how? What if somebody really is checked out and they don't want to see?
Speaker 3:that again, we can't control someone else, what is the answer?
Speaker 2:What is the answer to how the internal switch, like you just said, what if, let's say, one side did keep that internal switch on and what if the other side also kept that internal switch on? So can you speak about the benefits of it, and is there any chance that they can or cannot be for each other, or what are other benefits by them allowing themselves to have that switch?
Speaker 3:on Sure. So, first of all, you know, everyone always asks me how do I take my relationship from, like you know, second or third date to like bringing it to the next level, to the next level? We want to be bringing it to the next level. Nobody knows how to do that and one of the major answers to that is connection. When I feel like I connect to somebody deeply, when I'm able to make myself vulnerable, open up and share things that are more personal to me, then I show you, I'm allowing myself to be exclusive in this conversation to you. I'm being vulnerable in a way that I am not with other people. That makes another person feel special, wanted, wow, they want to share this with me, and that allows connection to build. And when the other person does that for you, that really brings the relationships to the next level.
Speaker 3:So what I'm offering here is what if, even if you think this person is not for you, if I'm able to keep that switch on of saying I'm going to stay open, I'm not going to shut off the switch, I'm not going to shut off my mind and say this is not for me, I'm not continuing, I'm going to say no, like how long do I have to sit here till I get out of here? Because, by the way, a person can feel that energy when you shut off that switch. Even though you don't verbalize it, I can tell when you're staring at the out the window, when you're looking at your watch, when you're just kind of watching the pastors by, okay, you go to the bathroom three, four times, like I get it. You don't want to be here, okay, and so that does not lend itself to connection or even the possibility of seeing if there could be connection. But what if we started to open up and talk about, you know what we're going through, our pain of the vertus, the stress and the anxiety, or the family, or the soldier we know, or the people we're diving for, or the things we're working on within ourselves, right, all these things are things that, universally, everyone's going through right now.
Speaker 3:And if we can pick one area where we can choose to connect on and frankly, eric Charles is a great one because it's personal, but it's not too personal because we're all going through it it's not like, oh, this one's parents got divorced and oh, I had a sibling who passed away and I have a special needs. You know, these are not extra personal. It's kind of universally personal because we're all going through it. So if we're able to go through it together and try to see if we can connect on that, that could be like the Pesach, the opening for further connection. And so even if one side is keeping that switch off, right, I'm open, I'm going into the state open and I can tell that he's not open at all.
Speaker 3:But I have to tell you, even when that other person is not going in open and you are keeping your switch on, you're like I'm going to stay open, I'm going to be present, I'm going to really try to engage. It'll take a little bit of time, but you'd be surprised. People will come around. It's like, okay, how long do I have to sit here? And then she or he is going on. It's like, wow, you know, this is a genuine person. They're actually putting an effort into this conversation, they're actually opening up, they're actually sharing and being vulnerable, wouldn't it? I think it would be nice if I would also contribute. So you can sometimes bring that person in by leading by example and showing them that I'm going to be vulnerable first. Okay, it's always hard, like who's going to be the first one. But if the person who's conscious of keeping that switch on is going to be able to be vulnerable first, you can gently invite the other person into the conversation just by your openness and your warmness, right?
Speaker 3:How often do we go on a date and like we're in a bad mood, but the person we're with is, like, so smiley and happy and positive. We feel awkward being in a bad mood because they just have this positive effect on us. Right, so you can have that positive effect on another person even if they're shut off, and I think that that is a really, really great way to be able to build connection, and especially with something like the whole Massa Ben-Artsis role, which is personal but not too personal, to try to use this as a stepping stone to vulnerability, to connection, to openness, to getting real. There are so much good that can come in connection from getting into real conversations. Right, you know the things that I don't want to go out with someone for, because you know he has this job and not that job, because I heard that he wears this clothing and this color, not that color. This ishiva, not that ishiva. This height, this weight right, well, we can get away from the superficial and just dive deep into who this human being is that is sitting in front of us. There is so much greater potential for connection and to be able to see what is actually going on here in the relationship.
Speaker 3:There are so many couples who go out, you know, once or twice they say no and then five, 10 years later it comes back around and they get married. What happened, like what happened that first time? I'll tell you what happened. Connection was always available. Both or one switches were off in both of them and so there was no even chance. You couldn't even start. You couldn't start the conversation of trying to get to know this person. Once. They went on another time, years later, they were more mature, they were more open. They were saying I'm gonna get real, I'm not gonna focus on the superficial or that one thing I heard about them that I didn't like. Then there is so much you know potential that could come. So I think that that's a really great place to start.
Speaker 2:I really like that because it also there's two really big benefits of when people are open that I love to expand on what you said, rachel. One is that you know I've had people that have gone out. You know, many times I tend to not count dates. I've oldish, took them kind of hard that I've made and continued to do work with. I still never know how many dates they went on. It doesn't matter to me. I don't count dates. Some people do, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think that a fifth date means this and the seventh date means then and by the following, I don't know, by the 12th date, you should get engaged. That's not how I roll at all. It's much more individual based. However, what I have found is that by people holding in, not turning their switch on until they get really, really, really comfortable which is usually at a later time where they became very familiar with the person who they're dating, but they were never personal they find out at a later stage that it's not gonna work. And when I say stage, I don't mean that they entered from that stage one to that stage two, from the hi nice to get to know you, to better conversation and more emotionally connected. I'm saying that they have the timeline of comfort, they know what the person looks like, they know what they're gonna wear on the next date, they don't have a problem communicating with them, but they've actually never made that emotional bond or connection and they haven't had real conversations yet and they look in hindsight. I probably could have figured that out a lot earlier. I could have figured that out after a few dates as opposed to after many dates.
Speaker 2:I had a girl who contacted me that she was dating this boy and she doesn't really like him, but she doesn't know why. And her mother was saying no, you should go out more. You should go out more. And she said, like, what should I do? And I said, well, what bothers you about this boy? And she's like I just don't like him, I just don't connect with him. I said, okay, how do you know? She said, no, nothing's come up. I said, well, have you tried? Have you tried showing him your true colors, who you really are? Have you sat on every single date feeling like stiff and tight? Or have you allowed yourself to be comfortable within your own skin on the date? She's like well, you don't do that too early. I said, okay, but it's not early anymore. It's not the first or second date, right, it's not early.
Speaker 2:So I said, well, don't you want to find out if he is or isn't for you? She goes. So what should I do? Just go on the next date and share with him some of my passions and the things that I've done and what interests me. And I said go for it, tell him why you love your summer job so much. I want to share the following with you. Right, and that's like turning that switch on.
Speaker 2:She goes and what's going to happen? I'm like you're going to see if it was, if you felt good delivering it, and you're going to feel back whether or not it was well received or not. You're either going to connect or not connect. He might be like, oh, that's nice. And you're going to be like, all right, I'm out. Or he might be like, wow, that's really interesting. So funny. You tell me that I also had a very similar experience or had something in my life that made me feel very similar to you. Can I share that with you? And then you start seeing how you feel around that person and that opens up. You know, I call it that. That's the past hachbasuak to like, start getting to know the other person. They do find that a lot of people can. You don't have to go on 10 dates to find out what you could have found out on a 50.
Speaker 3:Can I ask you that you're saying Liora? Please do absolutely so. Another thing that tends to happen is and this is typically a girl thing so a guy will go out, he's really trying to get to know her, and girls it could be because of our more private, snistic nature are not usually first to just open up, like. First I got to feel it out, I got to see if I'm comfortable. Do I like his personality, do I like his look? Do I? I got to get comfortable in all fronts before I like open up.
Speaker 3:And something that's very classic that happens very often is the guy is like trying to get her open up, trying and trying and trying to be patient and waiting. And when is this girl going to open up? Cause I like a lot of things about her, but I feel like she's just not letting me get to see her and so they'll keep dating. And he's being patient, patient, patient. And at some point and every person has a different point the guy's like forget it, she doesn't want to open up. I'm not going to force her, I'm not going to beg her, I'm not going to, you know, there's only so much. I could chase her, you know. And so I'll just walk away.
Speaker 3:And as soon as he starts to pull away, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm here, I'm here open up, I'm here to open up. And at that time most guys are like I'm sorry, I'm out of here, like I'm done, I've been so patient, like if you didn't want to open up till now, like I just I can't keep waiting anymore, it's too much. And a lot of some guys will say okay, fine, okay, let's see, let's try. And a lot of guys will say can't have a relationship like this, where I'm begging, begging, begging for you to just let me see who you are, and I'm waiting and waiting, and waiting and you just can't. Like I can't have a future like that, I can't have a marriage like that. And even if the girl would actually open up and be able to just move forward, sometimes it's too late. It's just too late and God, and that's very sad.
Speaker 2:Very, very sad. So one of the things that I recommend to people is having an understanding of the difference between private and table talk. Personal Meaning it's not personal in a way that I can't tell anyone about that, but I wouldn't necessarily tell it to the person next to me at the bus stop, right? So there's a difference between personal and private. So personal questions or personal information is so smart to share, doesn't have to be on the first date. Again, make sure you wanna share some personal stuff and you don't feel like you know it's just the person on the other side of the table who's a complete stranger. Why would I share any of that with him? But there's also this like really nice point where you sit there and you say some personal stuff Like, oh yeah, I one time had a. Yeah, when I one time had a surgery, or you know, I broke my arm and it was crazy.
Speaker 2:That's not so personal. You know A private surgery might be if somebody had back surgery and they were depressed and couldn't move for months and until they were covered. That's not private, it's not something they're gonna share. But there's a big difference between a personal experience and a private experience. You know you don't go out with somebody and say to them on the third date, because you're trying to connect with them Like, so, why do you have a broken engagement? No, no, no, no, no, that's private. That is not a discussion unless you are worthy and you are the Zoka like to the key of my heart for me to open and share with you, and that's at a later stage.
Speaker 2:But a personal question would be, like you know, or a personal statement to share with somebody might be something like you know how a seminary and somebody might be like you know, it's so interesting. It actually wasn't like what I thought it would be and I had an okay year. That's personal, that private, that private. What was it like when you had being raised with a sibling with special needs? That's a little bit more private. And I think that people have a hard time identifying Rachel, that they're allowed to share experiences, date fun, personal things that are lighter or not going to the deepest of depths, and people do have boundary problems with that. So how can you identify or can you break down the difference between trying to connect with somebody on a more real level, on a more open level, on a more vulnerable level, with proper givulim, so that they don't say something that scares the other person away, which happens all the time, or anything else of this work. So can you give some better guidelines for breaking down?
Speaker 3:the difference. I'm going to give a couple of guidelines and then I really want to hear from Yutthak in terms of some of his. He's had a little time to process and I like hearing his responses after he's processed More like a little more time to get overwhelmed.
Speaker 3:Now that he's able to put up with Leo and I going on and on, and he's had a time to process, we want to hear from him. So I'm just going to quickly go through that a little bit. And it's very important to, yes, be able to understand personal and private, but also understand that if we don't move our conversations from just less personal to more private and more open and deeper, we cannot move that relationship forward.
Speaker 2:And so, very simple, I'm talking about before that, because a lot of the identification I want you to give over is the difference from going from table to a conversation. I went out with this nice person they're nice, I'm not interested, we have nothing in common to have figure out. If you actually do have things in common.
Speaker 3:OK, so I'm going to quickly just go through what I call the four stages of dating, because I just think that it's a helpful thing to know, and then a couple of ways in which to get there. So four stages of dating are essentially number one getting to know you. It's essentially just collecting information. Yes, you've done research on this person, but you don't know this person as a person. You just know them from just details that you've heard on paper. So, getting to know a little bit about them, their personality, what they enjoy, how they participate in conversation, their family, their job, their yeshiva, whatever it is that they're up to, just getting to know them. And that stage can last for different amounts of dates, depending on who you are. Typically it's about one to four dates, depending on who you are, and that's kind of a conversation you would have with any kind of stranger co-worker, so to speak. Just getting to know a new person Then. Then we're moving into the next stage, which is developing a friendship.
Speaker 3:Can I develop a friendship with this person? Maybe I can, maybe I see everything on paper is great and I get this a lot. He's such a great guy, but I just don't like him. Something about him I just don't like. I don't like his personality, I don't like his laugh, I don't like his look. I just don't like him. So how do I move that relationship from the getting to know you into friendship, becoming more open? Maybe throwing in some jokes, maybe allowing this person into my world where I share not private, but things that are a little bit more personal? Like you said, I broke an arm. These are some things that I enjoy doing hobbies, passions, interests, things that I'm involved with in my life, which are all components of what make you who you are, and so can I build this friendship, and a major part of that is can I enjoy this person's company, because if I got a penny for every person who wants to continue dating because it looks good on paper, I mean it's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:Papers do not get married, people get married. I never went to a wedding where I saw two papers getting married. People get married, people, people who like each other. We have to like each other. Life has many, many challenges, and if you're married, you know that. So we're not deciding if we can solve all of life's issues together, because you won't be able to. What we are deciding is would I like to go through life and life's challenges with this person. Do I like this person enough that when things come up, I would want to work them out with you, as opposed to somebody else, and personally, as somebody who had been engaged multiple times? This is not something that I recommend.
Speaker 3:If you try at home, do not be engaged multiple times for no reason, just to try this out. But since I've already done the legwork for you, ok, a litmus test for me when I was engaged because I was engaged more times than I'd like to admit was when hard things came up, because I found that when I was dating, hard things didn't really come up, because everyone's on their best behavior and it was really hard to get from a person how they would react in a hard situation. And so the litmus test for me when I was engaged because whenever I was engaged I wasn't I know this sounds horrible, my husband will forgive me I wasn't quite sure that I was going to marry that person, since I'd already broken multiple engagements. I was engaged and it was kind of like, let's see how this goes. I didn't tell that to him and I was certainly trying to make it work, but I found that the only time I could really get real with this person was during engagement, because that's when decisions came up, that's when plans came up, that's when different family background challenges came up and how can we work through this together? And each time I was engaged I came up with situations that made me realize I cannot work with this person through life.
Speaker 3:When life challenges are really intense and really real, I cannot work with this person, and that led to the downfall of a couple of relationships. And I remember dating my husband and challenges came up because you come from different families. You're spending a lot of money on a wedding, plans, details, different personality traits and I remember watching and observing myself from afar how we were working through this together and I remember saying this is the man. This is the man that I can and will be able to work through life challenges with. And so I think that that is like I said don't try this at home.
Speaker 3:But I think it's really important to focus on that, because a lot of couples I deal with are so busy worrying about well, I don't know If her mother does this in their home and I do this in my home what's going to happen when I go to them for Shabbos. You're not going to be able to solve every nitty gritty detail. Better focus on the big picture. Do I like this person enough to want to be able to move forward in any life challenges? Do I like how we work together as a team in order to deal with things that come up? So that would just be the friendship stage, ok, so just getting that.
Speaker 2:You start looking for that at level two. Level two is the friendship, the friendship.
Speaker 3:Do I like this person enough that I enjoy their company? And the only person who can tell you that is yourself, not your Shachan, not your dating coach, not your mother, father, sister, brother. No one is going to be able to tell you if you like this person enough. And usually the most test is do I want to see this person one more time? Not five times, not if I see myself marrying them. I don't want to hear any of that. Would you like to see them one more time? Was the date good enough that I would want to go out one more time? That's the only question I expect people to answer. So OK, so again.
Speaker 3:So we've gone through the Getting to Know you stage, building a friendship, which again can take between date two till 10. Everyone's different. Some people move faster, some people move slower. It depends on how scoffically what you're used to in terms of those boundaries. So I leave that open. And then after we want to move forward from the friendship stage, because not everybody that we're friends with can we actually build a marriage with, and so that's really, really important. But friendship is the healthiest foundation of a healthy marriage, and so if we have a good friendship in this relationship. Now let's see if we can move it to the next level, and the next level is emotional intimacy and the way I'm trying to.
Speaker 2:You just bridged the two, not Reim, but Reim Ha-Hu-Vam. Yes, I love the way that you just bridged level two and level three.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, ok, and so friendship is not just something that I would share with a friend, because we went from sharing with getting to know someone as on a coworker level or a stranger level to building a friendship with somebody OK, but someone who would move into category of best friend or even more than best friend, that I would share something much more personal and much more vulnerable with in that emotional intimacy phase.
Speaker 3:And the way I define that is intimacy which people only think of, physical intimacy, and that's not what I'm referring to.
Speaker 3:Emotional intimacy is exactly what it says Into me, I will allow you to see Into me. You see, if I can and create the capacity for allowing, if I can allow someone to see into me, my real heart, my real soul, my real interests, my real passions, my real struggles, my real challenges, if I can allow someone into that, then I can create really deep connection and I can really move this relationship forward. And it's usually in the third phase that, if that phase goes well for both people, both people are able to be open, vulnerable, share deeper parts of themselves, challenging parts, beautiful parts, ugly parts, parts that I might not be proud of, but I trust you enough I feel that you won't put me down, you won't make fun of me, I feel safe with you, I feel accepted, I don't feel judged. Then if I feel that I can move through that phase with you, typically mentally people will say I can marry this person. They might not be ready to do it, but mentally they'll say I can see myself marrying this person.
Speaker 2:And that's what people say, like oh my gosh, I had to come home one day from one day to go. I think this is it, it's like it's your week of light bulb moment. We've got it. Jeppe, you're not going to engage there, but they're not proposing tomorrow, they're not proposing tomorrow Right.
Speaker 3:They're mentally saying, ok, I can go from stranger friendship emotional intimacy. This is someone that allows me to feel safe with who I am. When I show my best parts and I show my less than best parts, I feel like this person can accept me. Then I move to the next phase and again, this stage can take between date 5 till 15, 20. Again, it depends who you are and what your time frame comfort is. Then I move to the next phase, which is taking leave.
Speaker 3:Ok, and that's an entire phase, because just because I know mentally and emotionally that I could actually create a good life with this person doesn't mean that I have the strength or the ability to actually take the leap. Because I'm so scared, because I'm so worried, because I had a broken engagement, because my parents were divorced, because I never saw a healthy marriage, because what if they say no to me? All the fear or all the anxiety that comes up. And so it's called the leap because it literally is a leap, and the leap is you're not going to know everything about this person. I know that doesn't sound comfortable, since we're talking about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. You will not know everything about this person. You will get married and you will find out things about this person that you didn't know, and you're going to find out things about this person that they didn't know about themselves. You know why they were never married and even if they were married, they were never married to you. So the leap is I know enough to say I have a strong foundation of a healthy friendship. I have a strong foundation of a strong emotional, intimate connection that I feel safe enough that I want to go through life with this person Whatever comes my way. I will not solve it all. Whatever comes my way. Are you willing to be vulnerable? Am I willing to be vulnerable? Are we both willing to take this leap together? Yes, then we can leap.
Speaker 3:And I'll also mention that if anybody gets stuck in any of those stages meaning when I ask people about their dating patterns and I find that like oh yeah, typically I got one, two dates and then they're over, or oh, I always get into a big partial up and like it always explodes, or I've had multiple engagements, so you can see where people get stuck along the different stages If you're not able to get through each stage, obviously you're not going to be able to get down the aisle. So working through what's getting people stuck in each phase is super, super important, because if people can never get to emotional intimacy, you're still not getting married, even if you can have a million partios and a million broken engagements, but you're so riddled with fear you're not going to get down the aisle, even if a guy's like you and you like them. You got to work through what is getting you stuck there. So that is a little bit about the four stages and moving things forward.
Speaker 3:And the way to transition from stage to stage is typically a conversation where it's clear that both of us want to move to the next level and I'd like to share where I'm at and where I might want to see things going.
Speaker 3:And it's really important to have that conversation so that we can move things to the next level, because what often happens is I'm waiting for you to make the next move, you're waiting for me to make the next move, and we're ping-ponging and no one's going anywhere. So if one side, it's always helpful if it's the guy, because the guy is kind of waiting for the girl, and I always tell the guy you are the guy. So it is important for you to try to make that next move as, like, the man of the relationship, if you want to be the man of the relationship and take that next leadership role, but the girl is going to have to send vibes that she is ready for that, Whether or not it's a certain eye contact, whether or not it's a certain openness or comfort or a body language that shows that she's ready for the next phase. That is typically a conversation that is able to transition us from stage to stage.
Speaker 1:This is a fascinating framework. I like it very much. For me personally it very much resonates and I feel like, without hearing it from you, as I was listening to you, my relationship, my dating relationship and eventually getting married, definitely went through all of these stages. I have a lot of questions and I wanted to know if I could sort of ask both of you, not as a yes or no, but if you could try to give me a relatively short responses, because I really want to ask a few technical questions. I guess I'm thinking to myself.
Speaker 1:I'm imagining if I was dating again and people out there who are dating, they just wanted to get a few very kind of grounded I don't know if it's tactical advice of how to navigate a few different situations. So the first thing I wanted to ask to both of you is and just sort of reveal I don't know if I'm a color bias, but I'm definitely in the crusade of normalizing conversations about emotions for men, because I find that there's a lot of blockages for all kinds of reasons or just struggles being able to be emotional, emoting, sharing emotions. So one question I have for you is you know, it's one thing to describe these four stages in time of peace, right, but the way we started today's episode is we're talking about now in times of war, and things become wacky and people are dysregulated, and sometimes people are not even aware to what degree they're dysregulated until they are confronted with a random situation. And also, you know, the trigger sets them off and emotion just starts oozing out of them. So I'm going to again, I'm sort of making it like light because I know we're talking about a very heavy topic.
Speaker 1:So I'll give you an example, right. So I'm a guy I'm on dating, I come to you to talk to you and I tell you, you know I'm very nervous, I'm going to go on this first date or second date and I'm nervous I might start crying While we're sitting on the date. Do you think I should not go on this date now Because it's just inappropriate or I'm misplacing my emotions essentially on a stranger, or it's a sign I'm just not ready right now to be on the date. I just need to take time, you know, to be with my feelings, and when I'm more collected, you know because I'm essentially introducing stage three of your formulation at stage one, and so how would you advise me in terms of navigating something like that?
Speaker 2:Lira, you want to go? You want me to take it. You go first, I'll go after you.
Speaker 3:So, first of all, if we're so emotional to the extent that we cannot functionally show up at work, if we can't get ourselves out of bed, if we cannot go through our day-to-day basic living skills as a functional you know member of society, yes, I do recommend that you should not be dating and you should be taking a little time to collect yourself and get back to yourself and if there is a mental health concern or issue, you should certainly be taking care of that first before you're dating. With that said, if we're going to work, if we're going about our functional daily living and we find ourselves at times, you know, crying whether or not when we're dovening, or whether or not because we heard something tragic or we saw something that was just triggering, I think that that is universal right now for everyone and I certainly would recommend that you continue to date. But I would recommend that we bring this up and there is a possibility that we can actually fast-track connection. You know, during COVID, a lot of Shadduchem happened, a lot, because people realized what was really important. You know, people are sick, people are dying, everything's shut down Like what's really important Family homes, connection, the future right and I'm really hoping. I'm really, really hoping and dovening that that will happen this time as well, where, you know, when something really intense and really really happens obviously it's not, it's not ideal, we don't, we don't ask for that but when it happens, you know, can we really focus on what's real and what's really important? And I would say, call out the elephant in the room, just call it out.
Speaker 3:Something that comes up a lot for a lot of people is I don't know how to say that, but how do I, how do I bring that up? And that's so uncomfortable, and how do I, how do I say that and do that? I just say it. Yes, you just say it, right. So here's one method that I use for uncomfortable conversations. Leora, would you like to have an uncomfortable, awkward conversation? Sure, let's do it. Okay, this is a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit awkward, but I think it's really important to bring up. You know, I'm just feeling very emotional right now about Archdstall and I find myself dovening and just crying, or I find myself seeing a video and just not being able to compose myself, or just spacing out at work because I'm just so distracted with, you know, my family, my friends, who's safe, what's going to be all of that? What is that like for you? Okay, so that kind of openness we're like this is awkward, it's uncomfortable. Would you like to have a conversation of being uncomfortable? Let's get comfortable with the uncomfortable, would you? Would you, would you be able to do that with me?
Speaker 3:And so what we've done is we've invited another person into the discomfort, into the awkward, and now that we've kind of gotten that elephant out of the room, we can actually have an open conversation, and so there is an ability to fast track the connection. I don't want to skip the stages of friendship, because I do think that that's important. So we do need to make sure that, even if we jump into connection and the deep pain that we're feeling and what this brings out in us, you know, in terms of what's going on today, we still need to make sure that there is an opportunity for us to connect as friends. And something else that's really important to mention is, even though our dates, you know, may not be as light or as happy as they used to be, or although they really can be, because we're building homes here, right, look at the soldiers. They're dancing and singing. They, they, just, they know I'm Israel Chai. That is what's important.
Speaker 3:So I want to make sure that we don't just connect on a morbid level and just kind of misery loves company and you're sad and depressed and I'm sad and depressed. Wow, we have so much in common. Let's just get married. We need to make sure that we are going back and able to actually be friends, that we can have fun together, we can laugh together, we can enjoy smiling together. We don't want to attract somebody who is just in a heavy depressed state of despair. That is not going to lead us into a healthy relationship. So we want to make sure that that we do that. But in short, I would certainly tell someone to go out and try to focus on just bringing up what they're feeling as opposed to just hiding it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm going to answer. Thank you, rafael. I'm going to, I'm going to expand a little bit, but first thing I was going to say is that emotional regulation is of, you know, utmost importance and for sure it makes sense what you're saying, that somebody should not go out of their not in a emotionally balanced state of mind. So, but once they are, once they are to answer the question about, let's say, let's say somebody's in a later stage of dating, right, not date one, two or three, but let's say they're in, let's say they're transitioning from that friendship into that emotional intimacy. A lot of men feel in general that they can't share their emotions, they can't share their feelings. I think that we have seen more men crying on these videos, on these social medias, and then, what you know, the families are going through that. Seeing men crying is not something that is looked upon as a as a problem. So men out there should know that crying does not mean that you're a loser. Women don't look at you as crying turns you into somebody that is just, I don't know, not a man, not true? So much so that actually, when we go through history, it's actually fascinating.
Speaker 2:I took a course by Dr Ronanovic years ago as an educator in the school. She gave a course on anti-bullying and she said what's very interesting is that when children who are young, when they are bullied, you could have, like a say, a second grader who comes over I don't remember if she said second grader, but we could use a second, third, fourth, fifth grader, any of them, for an example. And if somebody goes over to the girl and will hit her really hard and throw her on the ground, right, she's going to cry Because that's the development, that's a developmental stage of a developmental response that's appropriate. You know for what she, what occurred to her? And it's a boy. The same thing happens to him. He goes to his teacher and he goes, he does he that. It's sort of like there's this, there's this undertone like man up, deal with it, handle it right. But if you wanted to do a neurological study, they actually emotionally, are both going to do the same exact thing, right? So why do we let the girl cry and we don't let the man cry? Now you're dealing with this as adults, okay? And the answer is is that a man who cries doesn't mean that he's not a man? So I just want to reassure the man out there. Actually, I think one of the most attractive features for many women who are looking for healthy men, while they're looking for somebody that's emotionally in tuned and aware and has social skills and is has a popularity amongst the people that they're close with because of their goodness and their kindness and their abilities. So I would like to add that.
Speaker 2:The third thing I want to say is, regarding this fast track connection we do have to be careful about it. It is true that during COVID, a lot of people were seeking a partner, a companion. We have a lot of people who were able to look past what's not important and look for the most important things. But we also had people that rushed into relationships. I've definitely gotten quite a number of phone calls of divorces from COVID who rushed into the relationship. So I'd like to I'd like to separate the differences between COVID versus what everyone's going through now with this war.
Speaker 2:I remember years ago there was a camp that they had a funny, cute name for it. It was for children with special needs and you had, like, a lot of counselors that were so good, the guy counselors and the girl counselors, and everyone was just in this environment of love, peace and happiness, harmony, selflessness, you know. So you have a lot of stuff that happened, which is a good thing, as long as people took the time to get to know each other for real, with the right amount of time, and outside of that environment, because that environment was not going to be their marriage, it wasn't going to be their day-to-day living. It was impractical. It was very lofty, sweet and holy and very enjoyable, but that wasn't going to be the only they were really going to be living. You know, when people go out to eat, you know on dates and this and that, like we like sometimes I remind them so you know you're not going out to eat every time you have supper. It's like he will be broke. So it's sort of like, eventually you go from this like baiting, from like what can we do? What can we do? What can we do? What can we do? And eventually it doesn't matter what we do, we just want to be with each other. It doesn't matter if we're sitting in your parents' living room with your brothers and sisters playing I don't know code names with us, because we're just happy to. It's not about spending money and being out there, but there is a reality that we have to understand that there are certain things that can bring us together and we want to utilize that power correctly.
Speaker 2:During COVID, one of the biggest hardships that I have identified from broken engagements or broken marriages who are now seeking, you know, looking for their spouse is that they didn't see these individuals in social environments. They didn't see them interact with the waiter, with the person who held the door for them. There was no outside world. So they only got to know them me and you, and you and me and barely anybody else, so they didn't get to see the whole entire them. Now, with this war, you're seeing people for real. You're seeing a lot of vulnerable exposure. I mean, it is really there. People are going on dates. They're not ignoring that their insides are upside down. They're not ignoring the fact that they're not in their house today and what we do and what's our routine, and I feel so trapped. And if somebody passed away, obviously that was emotional, but you just had a lot of people going about their new lives on Zoom, without social interaction, during COVID and during this war time.
Speaker 2:We're seeing a lot. We're seeing a lot about people and I think that the way to balance it because we said about the emotional regulation and what's happening. There are going to be days that are better and there are going to be days or they're having days that were worse. Mirza Shem, we should not have any days that are worse or that are hard. But I think that the Pesuchim are our gold and it says Gila Urbina Dita the Khedva, ahava Ahva Shalva Reyes.
Speaker 2:There are two parts to a relationship and when you're dating somebody, you have to exercise both parts of the relationship Gila Urbina Dita the Khedva, excitement let's go to David Buster's and let's go out to eat and let's have fun and let's do an escape room together. And Ahava Ahva Shalva Reyes, can I talk to you about how I'm feeling? Can I let you know what my inner world is like? And men and women alike are both able to practice both sides of the relationship, so that they can ensure that we don't have repeated history of the past, where people were focused more on one component without having the connection you know in the right, exact way, and that we could. And there are those that did, but there are also those that didn't. So we validate both and, at this time moving forward, that the men should know that, yes, you were not wired like women.
Speaker 2:I never saw a man playing in first or second grade. Can we play house? I want to be the daddy who wakes up in the middle of the night helping the mommy give the baby a bottle and change the diaper and take the garbage out and go to work, and I've never, ever, ever, seen that. You know, and all you men who see your three year old son pushing a baby stroller, calm down. They like their trucks also. It's okay, you don't have to be the father was. Oh, take that carriage to my son right now. You know, like, like we just like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm sure no one knows what I'm talking about here, but the bottom line is that we are programmed to talk more, to cry more, to play mommy more, to dress up as a column, or it's spoken to us about marriage left and right, every stage of life. Keep going. You want to know what it's like in high school? Well, good, so when you get married, in your session, right Again, the boys, it's not part of it as much as it is with the girls.
Speaker 2:Is it imbalanced, you, darn tootin? Okay, so we put that on the table. Now that we know that men, we know that you have feelings. We are married to men. We understand that you have feelings and you should know that they are normal and your wife will love your feelings and she will love your inner world and she will feel very special when she becomes the person that you chose to let in, to unlock, to get inside to your heart and that she will be the safe person for you. With those inner feelings that maybe you have deep friendships, maybe you don't, it doesn't mean you don't have feelings. We know that you do and you should feel good and confident and being emotional is not a sign of weakness.
Speaker 1:I'm going to push even harder question. Maybe you're going to tell me it's so sophisticated and it won't occur to people in their early 20s. I'm dating. Maybe I'm somewhere hovering between friendship and maybe heading towards emotional intimacy. Here we are we're in the middle of the war, I'm experiencing stuff and, by the way, I want to just quickly inject. I think you can zoom in, make two extremes. You know, somebody's like just emotionally circulated, they can't function normally. Or somebody was like totally what?
Speaker 1:I want to talk about the great scenario, because that's really where most people are gonna be and that is, you're right, I did go to work and I did perform and I went to show and I don't. It's at the end of the day when I know Need some release, and release I'm having is I'm going to date, and so finally I might, you know in some inappropriate way, or tell myself okay, here's finally where I could sort of let my guard down because I'm not interested in telling my boss or my co-worker just might be totally inappropriate setting to discuss politics, we know, whatever it may be, but the date, hey, the right, that's the environment, that right now, my world, it could be the place. So the question I have is where dating? I think it's going well, but now I'm wondering if and we can touch on it earlier but I really want you to expand on the things really moving, because I'm right now in distress, she's in distress and we are connecting around that versus there really is a good, solid foundation underneath us and I don't have to worry that I'm really sort of marching forward deeper into this relationship because of the current circumstances.
Speaker 1:You know, emotional upheaval or her emotional people. I like Howard, me right, you're the one so speak, on the front lines of dealing with them. I only get them after the whole. So you flagging for, hey, you to need to be careful. I'm concerned that the relationship is getting deeper for the wrong reasons, meaning Because you both, right now, are getting this emotional comfort out of this relationship rather than building a proper foundation of commonalities and not, you know, common vision for what you want out of the relationship. How are you flagging for these things?
Speaker 2:I think there's like two short answers which are really really short, and one of them is that it's a springboard to help you get to the other real stuff. That's number one. You're not there's. There's only so much you can connect on that level of how much we have in common about how we feel about it is well, everybody could eat everybody right now. If that's the case, because everyone is going through a lot of these feelings, it should be used only as a springboard. The deeper connection, because it's a very safe personal feeling, it's not very private.
Speaker 2:And number two is that I don't believe that you have to run towards skipping over each of the levels and each of the, each of the dating stages. It's very important to go through each and every single one, even if it might accelerate level two to go straight to level three of emotional intimacy. Be careful. Some of your stages might be shorter. But the last thing is, I think we're seeing, now more than ever, that we're really very similar. We're all Jewish. They don't care if you have a young on your head. If you don't, they didn't care with. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. That's the end of it. We have more in common with each other than we even realize we really do. We might be open to more ideas that we wouldn't have been open to. Because it's needed. We needed this to shake us up and to realize how much we have in common.
Speaker 1:That's exactly sir, I'm sorry but that's exactly what I just want to push it for me. Hello, you could pick up on. The answer is I hear what you're saying there, but the issue is what if I am using exactly that information, not intentionally, not because I know I have some bad reason for doing it, just it could be very subconscious, just you know sort of the emotions are caring a person especially a young person especially a guy who you know if you were sitting, learning and trained to be cerebral, and all of a sudden is getting hit with emotional.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm sitting with the girl on the date. I'm like you know what, right, what world's coming to an end anyway, and I'm saying just, people could catastrophize and Experience certain things that he wouldn't otherwise, when it's not time of war and all of a sudden it's yeah, I think she's good enough, yeah, I think he's good enough. So I'm just wondering what are you doing on the front lines? Because you're there with them. You know I can share with you what I would be doing if I was a shot, and I'm not. I can only tell you what they talk about after the fact that they wish were in the picture when they were on those stages. But I'm very curious to understand Right, you're listening to them and how are you flagging for? Wait a second, I'm picking up here, like I said, misplaced emotion good intention but not properly applied.
Speaker 1:how are you flagging for any of that sort of?
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna jump in here and say that I think the benefit of what we're going through right now is an ability to fast track, getting past the superficial, getting into the real. The real doesn't mean that you're necessarily. For me, the real just means that you know. What I find typically is that we think we have two people going on a date, but that's not what I see. What I see is that every time I have a guy who went on a date and didn't work out, he puts up a brick to protect himself. And every time she went on a date and didn't work out, she puts up another brick To protect herself because nobody wants to get hurt. And I see people walking around with fortresses To protect themselves. And it takes so many dates as we get older because we've all been hurt, we've all been rejected. It's painful for all of us, you know. I see them going on dates with these fortresses and no one could really get to know anyone, because everyone's trying to protect themselves, and protecting yourself is helpful in terms of not getting hurt in the future. The problem, that is, that we don't allow anybody in, and I think the benefit of what we're going through right now is claustral, is an ability to break down those barriers and break down those walls, because I could just be real with you, you could just be real with me. It's, you know, inherently a safe space where we can be open and share. That doesn't mean that you're for me, it doesn't mean that I'm for you, but I think that it will fast track our dating to like get to the real conversations sooner, and that will be helpful.
Speaker 3:One of the things that I use as a witness test is what are my deal breakers right? What are my needs and wants in a relationship? That's something that I established with somebody very, very early on. We really have to be focused on making sure that our core needs are being met. If our wants are met and our needs are not being met, this relationship will not be Sustainable long term, and so you really have to focus on making sure that those needs are being met, and we're going to need to focus on that right away so I can get to know this person deeper and faster. But we still might not have goals and values that match up we split not and I might not have a shot was a match up, we still might not have emotional. You know level of connection that will match up, but I will get.
Speaker 3:You could have connection, you could have connection but it would never work right Because other things are not in alignment right, and that's fine, but at least I'll get to know this person deeper and faster, will be more real with each other, because I think people are having less patience for all the small Superficial things and I think that this is allowed us to go deeper faster. So so you know, I think it's important that we make that very clear. We're not just pushing anyone to marry anybody. I mean, I don't push anyone to anything, but we're not encouraging anyone to just marry anyone because I'm a jew and you're a jew. That's not the point.
Speaker 3:I think that this just has the ability for us to get real sooner, you know, get rid of the superficiality, break down those barriers that kind of protect us and and in trap us, and get real with the actual components of who are we and can we actually connect in the things that we, in the areas that we really need.
Speaker 3:Because it is important to be selfish with what my needs are, because if I'm not selfish and dating and I say this very often I cannot be a good giver. I need to make sure my needs are being met in order to get. I think I will kind of end with that. This is unprecedented times and I think that people are digging deep within themselves and when we dig deep we often find the best parts of ourselves come out. And when the best parts of us come out and we're able to work on ourselves, grow, develop, connect and be open, then great things can come of it. And I really, really dive in and hope that from this matzah that we're in, really spectacular, beautiful, but in a month could be built in these times, I mean is he want you any parting words?
Speaker 2:you're good, I really think rachel made it full circle I think you went from the understanding from the beginning about what we're going through, the emotions of what we're going through, how to utilize it to keep it. Switch on allowing the vulnerability, being able to get to levels of understanding Earlier, on being real with oneself, being able to develop and grow in many multiple ways to help those you know about him and that you just discussed. I think that how you really just brought it full circle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's one of those two.
Speaker 3:You know it should be a close for all of us to try and heal the pain of claus raw, to be able to rebuild, and I also just want to personally thank you for being on this front lines.
Speaker 1:These are such important stages, the foundational stage, people's lives going into building families just want to preeminent values of the jewish people. So special that you're on those front lines helping guide people, especially through challenging times. Thank you for doing work thank you.
Speaker 2:thank you for what you do, pleasure thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1:For questions, comments, topics you'd like to hear more about, or to try our 24 week relationship challenge, email us at relationship reimagined at gmail.