Enneagram 8
Bryan: Welcome to season two episode 19 of the amplified marriage podcast. Today, we are talking about the Enneagram eight. That is me,
the protector, the challenger. You're about to hear a lot about me today.
Welcome to this episode of amplified marriage. I'm Bryan I'm Natalie, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. As you've heard us say many times before, get comfy. We're so glad that you joined us today and grab your coffee or tea or ice tea, whatever it is in case you missed our last episode, which was a little bit a while ago, it's been a busy, busy summer, but in case he missed the one, it was the intro to the
Natalie: enneagram.
That's right. And kind of with a more. We're going to talk about the Enneagram, but more with a focus on marriage, right.
Bryan: Relationships. Well, and we're going to talk about how big of a deal it was when we actually figured out, oh, are our Enneagram, like three years ago, four years ago, we took the test and it actually revolutionized how we communicate with each other, how I understand her now differently than I ever have before.
And so we're.
Natalie: So many times we wish we would have had this available sooner because I really think understanding how each other works in conflict or just what makes us tick, think would have really helped alleviate or help us walk through challenges
Bryan: has been an amazing tool to help you. Figure it out and eye-opening and figuring out how, who we are, who we are, why we are the way we are and why we do the things the way we do and how that actually works in tandem with each other and how to really engage our relationship healthily and properly.
The Enneagram has been just amazing. We've taken all kinds of tests over the years, just test strength finders. Right. And so so the thing about eights are self-confident or strong. We're quite opinionated or assertive. This is me
Natalie: before you continue, though. I think we really need to say that there are right
Bryan: there's
Natalie: healthy eights, average eights and unhealthy eights, right?
And I mean, you've been across all three sections over our marriage.
Bryan: Right. And I think now I'm at my healthiest. I'm at my most mature obviously, but I've also chosen to grow as a husband, so you can mature and still be a deadbeat husband.
Natalie: Right. And some of these things, I mean, we'll get into, into details because as we go through this, it kind of seems like good grief.
What a tool like. Right. Like your, your personality or how you identify. Can be really, if you're reading it like this really discouraging.
Bryan: Right. And so I just want to do from, in Crohn's book. Cause, while we're getting back to the road, back to you, is we're getting, we're getting a lot of our information.
So here's a little bit about aids field. They must control them. Especially people sometimes being confrontational and intimidating in that way. Eights typically have problems with tempers and I've had that in the past with, with anger, with allowing themselves to be vulnerable and at their very best they're self mastering, they use their, their personality, their strength to improve other's lives, which is where I'm at now becoming heroic, heroic, magnanimous, and inspiring.
Now I'm not saying those things about me. That's what the book says. So don't be like, Hey, look what Bryan's doing.
Natalie: Anger is the dominant emotion, right? With an eight and sort of like, there's a dominant emotion and then there's the sin and the sin is lust, but not in the way that we associate lust. Right.
So it's a lust for intensity. And it's a lust for things to change. You get bored very easily. So for example, like I, it used to bother me when, in his jobs over the years, he would get to like the two-year mark and then all of a sudden get really antsy. And he used to drive me bananas because I could almost predict.
I do the TNI. And I'm pretty sure that we mentioned this in another podcast about like, I don't care where you need to find the joy for the job that you're currently doing, but you need to figure this out, whether you need to pray about it or talk with God or talk with somebody, but you need to plant your feet.
This is where you're at right now. And you need to find. What you're doing used to bother me. Well, and
Bryan: it'd be, you would say it just like that to like figure this out, find that was also later in our marriage, but like figure this out. Don't let this be the thing that breaks you out of this good job that you have because you're getting bored, doing the same thing over and over,
Natalie: or like seemingly doing the same thing over and over.
Right. I think if you if we take a healthy look over the years, I mean the jobs were not boring. Well, in my opinion,
Bryan: in your opinion says the one who likes routine and lists and tasks and yeah. Right. And so eights in and just like a brief statement. We're self self-confident, we're strong, we're assertive or protective, resourceful, straight-talking and quite decisive.
One of my biggest you've heard me say this. If you're a longtime listener, you've heard me say this. There's nothing that drives me crazy more when we're literally driving up to the Tim Horton. Drive through. She's had the same coffee. Yeah. The same coffee for the last five years. And we get to the thing and she does know what.
I'm like, I don't have, I don't even ask anymore. I know. I'm just like, no, no, you're going to have a two cream, one sugar and you're going to like it and then that's it. I just drive forward. I don't even need to ask at all.
Natalie: And then today I threw a curveball. I had a London fog, so yeah, sometimes I like to be spontaneous.
And that's me living spontaneously is making just a different story. Your
Bryan: spontaneous living is changing from two creams, one sugar. Wow. And when you did say that, it almost broke me. I'm like, I don't know what's happening right now. Up is down. Down is up.
Natalie: That's all right. You love you, you love decisive people.
And one of the struggles has been in dealing with people that aren't like you like, honestly, what
Bryan: w when you say it like that, how do you mean when people aren't like you? Because no, one's like me. I'm unique.
Natalie: Guests. Eights are very unique
Bryan: and never mind. You're not going with me, but
Natalie: you are unique. I mean, on one hand, you are fabulous at drawing out the assertiveness in you in particular, right?
And, and in other people though, of feeling not heard or not validated, and it's not like the validation is coming from you, you are just drawing out the need to stand up. For what you believe, because that's so important to what eight beliefs, right? Yeah,
Bryan: yeah, yeah. I get it. And so what is the basic need of an eight?
The basic Navy is to protect themselves and remain in control. And here's, here's a statement that I heard. I think it's Suzanne Steele who said it this way. She's like, they don't want to be, they don't need to be in control of everything. They just don't want to be controlled. And so I tend when, and so I've had to learn healthy respect and honouring attitude towards authority. Yes. Over the years, like my pastor, my lead pastors our leadership team, but our lead, my lead pastor, he's challenged me so many times over these years with thinking differently than I will, because I'm not an eight or he's not an eight, he's a three, he's an achiever.
And so sometimes our, we work really well together, but our. Decision-making process motivations are different, but the way we approach things is different. So I'm not the boss, I'm the boss in the fact that I'm, I'm the second chair I do. A lot of the guys oversee a lot of things and I lead teams. But when it comes to the overall vision of pastor Brody says, I want to do something different and it's different than I have to just be like, yep.
You're. In the closed doors, you may hear us or you'd never hear us, but I may disagree and we're going to talk about it. And because we've earned that we've built that relationship and I can trust him and he can trust me. But in public, no one will ever see me dissenting. Nope, because I've learned healthy respect and healthy honour towards my lead pastor towards my boss.
He's my boss. He's my lead pastor. He's a guy that's been pastoring me for the last few years. But it took only 20 years to be able to 17 years to be able to get to that place where I'm mature enough to be able to say to you, I will move this way with you. And
Natalie: submission to authority doesn't mean that your feelings and your concerns are not heard.
Or that you're a doormat. Right, right. It means. And so like the same thing in marriage, right. Submission doesn't mean that you're a doormat. Right. But it's not
Bryan: just for the women. The problem is that. And me, in particular, is that if I, no matter what, even if we're at that place where I'm not being a doormat, you're going to know what my opinion is because I have no problem telling you what it is.
And off sometimes I hold back. Sometimes there are just times where I just I'm feeling like I shouldn't. Launch into me being me right now. Right? Like there are times where I just feel like I needed to be restrained like Camille, who's our administrator. There's been a time or two where I and pastor Malachi, our youth pastor.
He's also an eight. He, she actually said to me afterwards, we just, we ate the administrator because it was a funny play on words, but she had some news, she shared it with us and me and Malakai immediately launched into just our opinions, how we thought about it, how we felt about it. Right. And even though she's just a messenger, she felt attacked.
And I had to go to her afterwards and be like, you know what? You're right. We do. We didn't mean to attack you. We attack the situation and the information, but you're, there's a person on the end of that. And that's, that's the danger of aids is that we have, we, we don't, I don't, they said, sorry,
Natalie: we do say in an unhealthy
Bryan: and
Natalie: unhealthy, right.
Have a hard time owning up to and taking accountability for things that they say, and the things that they do, a healthy eight has learned, like you said, the. The benefit of living a life that's submissive, submissive to authority, whether it's your boss, it's your pastor.
Bryan: And, but then, the thing that people, when you hear, when you say the word submissive, and I'm glad you used that type of word, Is that people use that word and their relationship as a negative like, oh, he's, she's submissive or he's submissive or
Natalie: not have a say, and that's not it at all.
Bryan: And it really isn't it. And actually in proper healthy submission in the marriage relationship, as well as the boss relationship or the pastor relationship or the CEO relationship and that proper. Healthy submissive relationship as me not being the main boss as be having to submit to authority. Yeah.
When that happens, there's actually freedom. There's stability. There's an honour. That can happen. There's actually more ability for me to grow because I have the support of those around me and the same
Natalie: thing and more chance for you, to step into leadership roles.
Bryan: Right. Because they're, they're like O'Brien could be trusted.
Natalie: Eights often tend to advocate for the underdog as they work to protect those, they feel are unable to protect themselves. And I think that's incredibly true, which leads me to this point here, which I thought was super interesting. They are the only number I remember. Mom, maybe you don't did we mention in our little trailer sneak peek about there being nine Enneagram types?
Bryan: Yeah.
Natalie: Of the nine, they are the only number that will be brave enough to confront bullies or people that they deem are dictators or oppressive people or whatever, like seeking to. Degrade someone else. They're the only number on the Enneagram. Who's brave enough to confront that. Whereas some of the other numbers need coaxing.
It takes years for them, to stand up for themselves in the way that they need to. We're an eight is already there.
Bryan: Yeah, that's just our natural state of ready just to head into that. Well, and it was, I was listening to a podcast just about any grams and I think, I believe it was eating cronies, like eight are the most aggressive on the scale.
Like we're aggressive are. And that's part of the issue is that I've often said is that if on my healthy I can roll over people. And so I needed, when I got married, I didn't know that I was an eight, but Natalie always stood up to me. You're a
Natalie: bull in a China shop. Right. For what an eight could be. Yeah.
If they're not careful.
Bryan: Right. Exactly. And so the being aggressive like this, I remember all like so many times I've just rolled over Natalie's feelings. Like not, not giving her space to even have a feeling that once she had a differing opinion in the mind, It was part of, it was when you're unhealthy as an eight you're insecure and you don't want to show that insecurity.
So you show it by what you think is strong and it's not strength. It's just being a bully. And so when you're an unhealthy eight, you're a bully. You're not, you're not being Hero, you're not being upstanding. You're just being a bully because you think you can. After all, oftentimes even as a healthy aide, there are times where people are having feelings, but those feelings, I actually prevent them.
From getting me, my things are done. Right. And moving forward into
Natalie: what do I need to do. And I think one of the things we need to point out is never, is it okay for someone or for you to say which he's never said, but I'm using this as an example, now you sure the whole being a bully thing off, or being bossy or being a control freak, these are not correct.
For you to stay in that place, right? Oh, I'm an eight. This is who I am taking. David. No, no, no, no, no. These are no one is one is, is typed in one category. Do you know what I mean? And how sometimes when you, when you take tests like this, then you just, well, I guess this is all that I am, right. And that's not the truth.
This is merely a, I would use it as a guide. To open your understanding of why you, what motivates you to do the things that you do, right. And use it as a tool like that versus, you know, sticking it to your spouse or your partner saying, well, this is me. Take it or leave it. No, because there's always room for growth.
Bryan: And, and, but here's the thing though, is when you say I am who I am, who I am, and I'm not going to change. When you say that you've actually now taken away any ability to change because you don't think you need to one, so you're arrogant and two, you think that you can't change. And I believe with all my heart, people can change because I'm not the same guy that I was 15 years ago.
I know you had some things you wanted to ask or statements you want to make and get my thoughts on. I
Natalie: did. I just wanted to say though. Okay, so now we're moving onto the relationship's side, move into the relationship of aids at their best. So healthy eights. Yup. They're supportive. They are playful.
They are generous in their relationships and they are high-energy people and find meaning in standing up for the underdog. Right. Which I a hundred percent agree when they're not. Operating in health in a healthy way, commonly healthy, aggressive and combative. They find it true, especially difficult to relate to thoughts of sort of the other numbers or other people.
They can be mistyped as Bossy. I mean, you've been these things. And I think I just wanted to point out this is especially true for women who are eight and we know two women in our personal circle who are eights and their intentions are often
Bryan: misunderstood. His statement that I'll make it cause I'm friends with both, but one I'm a lot closer with because she's on our team.
What, what people want in a male eight will often time reject in a female eight. So the person I'm talking about, she's very much like me and a lot of personalities and she'll say the same things and she'll be blunt, just like I am and she'll be direct. And she'll be forceful when I do it. People are like, like, it's actually like a
Natalie: lion.
Bryan: You're just, and sometimes if she does. People are like, whoa, what do you mean? I said it. And so I've actually been, been triggered to recognize this more often. So oftentimes I'll say it again. If you're a female eight, I would say, I think to hone in, hone in on who you are as, as being a healthy Enneagram, your approach.
Right. And that's like, there are things about my approach to sometimes are bad. Right? It's the same thing for wound, but again, yeah. Society culture applauds eight male eights that are like this. They're a certain way. They're forceful to get the job done. They're ambitious, they're direct. They're blunt and they want to get things done and they're charging forward.
And those same things in women. And it's so sad. Those same things in women sometimes are not applauded and they should be, and they should be, they should be applauded just as much in the man. Is there. That's
Natalie: Right. So eights fear being controlled and they distrust their emotions. So they tend to guard themselves in relationships and avoid the vulnerability that will expose any of their weaknesses.
And I can say for a fact, over our 20-year marriage in the early, early, earlier, but even like year 10, 11, 12 like even in those years. So when I say early, I'm not just meaning like in the first few years of marriage, that's when it was really bad, but even the 10, 11, 12, where we're sort of, the tide has changed, we still have no idea sort of the depth of what we're dealing with or why we're so irritated with each other's quirks.
Yeah. But, but you definitely were not vulnerable. And I remember. When we were, when we were pregnant with our first son, so that was 16 years ago. Someone had said to me, Hey, I really hope that you have a daughter. And I was like, well, why? Like I desire a son first. And they said because it would do your husband good to have a little girl running around so that it could bring out the softer side of your husband.
And I'm like what he is tender. And they're like, you must be the only one who sees that. Right. And that's fair. And it's so true, right? Like you're very choosy with who you are. You choose to be vulnerable with.
Bryan: Yeah, so like like in regards to that, Susan's to Beale, she's a very, very good at the pod or at Enneagram.
If you want to know more, go listen to Suzanne's to Beale and her husband actually. And they both do a really great job with this, but she said in her career of teaching Enneagram and working with Enneagram, she's asked eight, said, oftentimes she. Eight we'll have only eight to 10 close people in their entire life.
And she said, when I actually say that to eight, they're like, no, no, no, that's, that's less six, three, maybe two or four, but it's never as many. And that's, it's intentional on our part. We're kind of like a prickly bear until you get to know us. There's no soft, inner, warm, fuzzy, cuddly. There's just direct.
And, but yeah. I
Natalie: think those in your inner circle will see that vulnerability, those in your outer circle. So if you're like, what are you talking about, about a circle. If you picture yourself standing on a stage, right? Who's in the first row cheering you on, who's in the second row, who's kind of in the middle.
Who's at the back, who's in the bleachers and who's not even in there. Right? So the people that are closest to the stage where you're standing are the, are going to be the one. We'll see that vulnerability, we'll see, sort of you mess up and see you, the process of you figure that out, right. And come into a place of resolution.
That's true. So if you are married to a challenger, like I am. What were you or where did you have a relationship with a challenger? One of the things is that they like people to challenge them back. Would you agree with that? Yeah. So ACE admire strength. They will not respect you if you're not willing to stand toe to toe with them, they want others to be their equals and stand up.
They believe, which goes back to that assertive thing that we're talking about and how you draw that out of me. Do you want to know what my thoughts are? You don't want me to just piggyback on your thoughts and
Bryan: I don't, I don't want your, your filtered censored idea of what you think I want. I want what you're going to tell me.
Good, bad. The ugly. I want honesty and I want that from him. Yeah. Right now. Yes. Now that I'm healthy, I want that that's
Natalie: Right. And they'll respect you if you hold your ground with them. And once the confrontation is over it's as if nothing has happened. And that honestly is the truth in my situation with you.
Yeah. Where if there's been an issue and we've discussed it and we've. You know, but it heads about it and we've debated and we've talked and we've come to a place of resolution. It will, it will be like water off a
Bryan: Duck's back. Yeah. So much so that later, like later that week or later that day, even depending on the time of day, I guess the argument is, is that it'll come back and I will have already compartmentalize that thing.
Right. Process the issue we've walked through forgiveness. We've walked through repentance. If we've needed to, we've walked through communicating and, and responding in love to each other so much so that when you bring it back to me, I oftentimes, because I've moved on from it, I don't have a clear recollection of that because it's such an issue we needed to deal with it.
I hit it. I hit it face first head on whatever you want to call. And then the issue is done and I don't need to keep bringing
Natalie: it up. I admire that about you. And that's one of the areas that you've really kind of pushed me to come to that place where I do not like that. And we'll get into that on the next podcast, but it really has helped me.
It's taken me a long time. It's not, it's not been easy to get to the place that I'm at now, where I can assert myself and have healthy boundaries, but that is. You that has been really sort of the key driver in that for me anyway, with being an eight, right. Eights want the unvarnished
Bryan: don't sensor.
I was saying, and this is a pretty extreme example. I was saying at the beginning. So say we have to make a decision. We're going to buy a car. It's $5,000 and I go over the car and I look at everything. It looks fine. I drive, it seems fine. Everythings. At the moment, all is well, and you've given me everything about the car.
There's maybe there's a small tire problem where there's a rip in the seat, or there's like a mark on the dashboard. I'm a kid, you know what? I think this is a good decision. We're going to buy this car. There are no problems with it. We're going to move forward as Susan. If you give me the information afterwards and you've already, you said I've told you the truth.
There's nothing else about this car, but as soon as I hand you the money you tell me, oh, sorry. There's a fuel pump problem. I didn't tell you about that's when I met, because that unvarnished truth needed to come before I may still have bought the car. Cause I maybe I know how to fix it, or maybe I know how to get it replaced easy, but you didn't tell me in the moment and out of principle, Right.
I will want my money back. Right. And be like, I'm not working with you ever again, because you did not tell me the truth when people lie. Like I told my kids, there are two times that I get really upset when you lie to me and you don't do what I ask. And when you lie, they know they'll say this to each other, bro.
Amaris don't lie to dad. Cause you know what happens if you lie, it's worse than if you tell the truth.
Natalie: Yes. And it's true. It is worse if you. You might still be in trouble and there are consequences for whatever the situation is, but it would be far less troublesome if you just came out with the truth. So eights don't want you to protect them from the facts or coddle them by leaving out unpleasant details.
And that is very true. And you don't want to lose an eight's trust. It takes a long time to get it back, so right. Yeah. Remember the truth. It's fun to be in control. I agree. I
Bryan: agree, but it's funny. We don't need to be in control. We just don't want to be controlled. So I don't because, and this is something that we said. because an eight is the way they are.
They're their leaders, right. That's just who we are. Even when I don't want to lead, I ended up leading. And when, when I'm not leading, I just don't want to be controlled if I'm Malini. So I don't have to be in control. I just don't want to be controlled while I'm not in control. It's a weird
Natalie: thing. The weird control.
And yet, in my experience with you, maybe your experience is like, oh, he's like he or she is in control, right?
Bryan: That's it, that's a whole different that's next level. That's probably the healthy, the, or, sorry, the unhealthy, unhealthy, where they have to be in control because they, they are so insecure. And that's the thing that we're going to hide because we don't want to appear weak or vulnerable.
Right. And we'll get to that in a little bit. We'll hide that because we don't want people to see that. But we're so insecure that we have to stay in
Natalie: control. That's right. Eights are don't complain. Don't explain people. They don't make excuses and they expect you to not either. I think that's one of your biggest pet peeves is when people make excuses for their behaviours.
If you're in a romantic relationship with a Nate, you have to know who you are and you have to be independent. They don't want you to draft off their energy. They want you to bring your own. They love to debate. Yep. They love risky adventures. So
Bryan: someone told me a story about eights in particular, like, cause again, me and pastor Malakai or aids.
And so sometimes we're just, we're just barking at each other and people are like, what's happening. And we're like, But there's been times I say you're sitting at Thanksgiving and an eight, like me, gets into a discussion with say, my, my sister, who's a seven, she's an enthusiast on the, on the scale.
And the, she really loves a good debate, but sometimes we'll get into it and we're going back and forth and I'm like, that was healthy. That was great. And she's actually feeling like I stepped on her toes and she's offended and she's hurt. And I'm, I'm thinking, man, that was the best debate that I've had in months.
My sister knows how to push me and I love that. But she'll walk away feeling like, man, he pushed me too hard. I'm like, I'm feeling like she pushed me just right. I'm this is I'm walking away happy and she's hurt because eights just don't see it like that. They're like, we appreciate the challenge.
Natalie: Thrive on healthy discussions and your healthy discussions are at a decibel. That sounds like yelling so often then you're like, I'm not yelling and passionate. I'm like, well,
Bryan: And that's also genetics. Like that's not just being, and I know some eights that are pretty quiet, but that's genetic. Like my family's loud, my dad's loud. My uncles are loud. We're all pretty loud. We're just like that in general. And so I try and tone that down a little
Natalie: bit, eight state friends and partners who can keep them in check.
Right.
Bryan: And I have actually actively, in the latter part of my last five years, sought out people. Those are in my circle. I mean, outside of Natalie, Natalie will always challenge me. It's annoying, but it's, it's a thing that happens, but I've sought people that will speak truth to my life will give me feedback will be critical when I need them to be entered, to challenge me that way and just be like, just tell me the truth.
I don't care. I don't care if I like it or not. Cause sometimes like it's not that I. I want the unvarnished truth, right. About me, about the situation. It's not that there were. I can't wait for someone to say something negative about me. Right. But I can't be better as a human being if you don't tell me how I suck.
So if I suck at something and you didn't tell me, and I continued to suck on something, I'm actually going to be angrier than if you just would have
Natalie: told me. Exactly. Yep. That's true. Eights are looking for an answer to the question. Can I trust you? At the end of the day, they want to find someone with whom they can feel safe enough to relax their defences right.
And reveal their hearts because there is a tender side, there is a soft side. And then, you know, there's a whole thing of like, oh, you should feel honoured if an eight shares their deepest feelings. They, they do what they're fully capable of doing that. They just need to make sure that they can trust themselves with you.
Bryan: I like how you said that at the beginning. Can I trust me with you? That's exactly exceptionally accurate.
Natalie: Oh, for sure. A hundred percent was accurate. So, and, and also like, I mean, if you get the book, the road back to you, they'll have in here. Like who does an eight pair with, and if not a six, it does not pair with a six.
And, and here's the thing with me saying that this is kind of a guide. Yeah. Right. Don't want you to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm an eight. I can only be with a two or a four or five, the feeling types. Right,
Bryan: Right. And so why the feeling type though is because those are feelings. And an eight is is is not, it's a gut feeling.
It's a gut thing. It's a
Natalie: Right. And those feeling numbers or the heart numbers, right? The ones that lead with their hearts. The idea is that they can draw out those emotional tender connections. Right? Right now I am not a, to a four or five. And definitely or not, I can still draw that out. Right. So don't be so stuck on, you know, I can.
Date or marry someone who's these three numbers and no one else that's not at all. Like that's really taking it out of context, I think. Yeah,
Bryan: absolutely. And, and we've heard Ian, KRS-One speak about that as like, yes, this is no, but there are exceptions to everything. Like it's not that you're just launched into this and I'm going to be this particular age for the rest of my life.
So what's the next on the, do you want to ask if you're an
Natalie: eight, you need to listen and observe others before reacting and include others when making decisions. Right. And you and I, I mean, on little things we sort of know like what our budget is and things like that. So you and I are like consulting about every little thing, but we do consult.
We do have these conversations. I don't have to phone. You be like, can I buy some toothpaste? That's not at all. What's necessary. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So you are a born leader and people want to follow you, and sometimes they will go along with your plan because they feel like they don't have a choice.
Remember this, this is where you can really cross that line into being a bully. Yeah,
Bryan: I remember I just started at the church. He was like three or four months in and we had been taken, been working with the worship department and we had. We've actually been running it for quite a while. You and but I started at the church as the associate pastor.
And I remember pastor Brody, I had a bunch of changes we needed to make, so we could start streamlining how we did Sunday services and how we did worship and songs and stuff like this. And he had his advice to me. He's like, Bryan, I know that you just want to charge ahead cause that's who you are. I said, but you're not a feeler or you're not creative.
And they always call me action Jackson at the church. Cause I always want to get stuff done. But he said you need to get the feedback and the opinions of your worship leaders. And he said, because there are a lot of them were creatives and he said, you need them to be on board with you and said, just telling them what to do.
You need to bring them with you. And don't be the bully,
Natalie: which leads me to ensure. And this is whatever your job may be, where you are in a position of leading somebody. Ensure that you're clearly articulating your expectations and making others feel seen and heard that will go so far.
Bryan: So here's, here's also a shortcoming of an innate, or maybe it's just mine.
I'm not tremendously encouraging. Would you say,
Natalie: No, you're not. And so
Bryan: let me, let me get back to this. So I went to the worship leaders and we have amazing worship leaders at our church. Yes, we do. And I went to them, presented him some ideas and they were on board with it because instead of me being.
I approached them with it and said, Hey, this is what I think that we need to do moving forward. This is why, and they supported it. And we've just seen growth and maturity in them ever since. And I was like four or five years ago. We have great leaders on our team. But that was me being a bully now or not being a bully.
I could have bullied them and been like, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. And I'd probably have, honestly, in the last few years done that exact thing. Right. No, but I could have done that, but I haven't because I've had to learn over the years how to be healthy, moving in that direction.
Natalie: Right. That's right. And there is wait, there's no iron team. There really isn't any good leader. If, if, if you look behind you and no one's following you, right. I think that's a prime opportunity for you to really like self reflect. Well, and your style of
Bryan: leadership. Right. And also looking, looking. To others, because you're not the, you don't, you're not the smartest person in the room.
So even, even in your marriage, even in your relationship or your husband, whoever you are, whether or not you're any one of the numbers or your desk or strength or whatever test you're doing, you don't need to be the smartest one in the room. You don't need to have all the best ideas. And one of them, the reason I'm the leader I am now is one people challenge me.
Right. But the reason I am the leader is that I have smart people in the right positions. I have the right people in the right place that know how to do certain things. I can't do it, all those things. I'm definitely not the smartest guy on the team. Right. And that's okay. And you have to be okay with, even in your relationship, your wife or your husband is going to have good ideas and they're going to have a better idea than you.
And it's okay. Sometimes my 16-year-old, my 15 years, my 14-year-old, my 12-year-old, have better ideas than I do. And you can't be so insecure as a leader, as a husband, as a pastor. A boss that you can't take those ideas because, and take those ideas in you and say, Hey, and then give credit for that. Like, that's not me.
Like people say that to me, they're like, oh, that was great. It's not mine. I wish I could take credit for that, but that's not mine. That's
Natalie: Right. Right. So if you, to recap, if you love an eight, eight needs to be met on their level, right. So honesty straightforward. Communication.
Bryan: The other, other things too straightforward communication is I will be straightforward and communicate clearly with people.
But I will also approach people as a manager, as a boss, even as a husband, as a brother I'll approach people where people are at
Natalie: right now. So one of the really key things is that. Our pastor wanted for his team that he was working for was for all of us to do the Enneagram test so that when it came time to resolve conflict or to be able to approach being able to accept someone else's idea, that could be really challenging knowing what the team's numbers that he was working with really help in having those kinds of conversations where you know, how you need to.
Someone you can't approach a six like you would approach another eight. I
Bryan: can approach you the way I would approach the pastor
Natalie: Malachi, Right. And so I think being able to recognize that, like, these are tools that we can have in our toolbox, in leadership roles in general, whether you're working for a company or whatever, it doesn't necessarily have to be in a church.
Eights, you can't force them to be vulnerable, but you can create a safe space for them to be able to express themselves, earn the respect of an eight. And you might find yourself in an incredibly deep and stimulating relationship. And I think that that's a hundred percent true.
Bryan: Right. What did we learn today from how, if you have an eight in your life, how you approach an actual healthy eight, right.
Natalie: I think having clear, defined. Expectations clear,
Bryan: defined expectations, speak to them, challenge them, like them into their feed, like be honest and open and direct with them. I hate it. When people beat around the Bush, it's, don't beat around the Bush, beat around the Bush with most dates. I don't know of any eight.
That's like, yeah, please tell me a story. I just want the facts. Like my emails are bullet points. Like this is what we're doing. They're not two-page letters. Right? So clear to find expectations. Communicate with them the way they would be, what you, you would want the way they want to be communicated with while that was hard
Natalie: and create a space for them to express
Bryan: themselves.
Right. And eights we'll advocate. We'll fight for you. We'll go to war for you for your whole. You're whole life once you've they've, they, they feel they can trust you and you trust them. We will go to war to the ends of the earth to make sure that you're good, that you're galvanized, that you're supported, that you're loved and you're cared for, but you got to get to that little place.
And so it takes a little bit of work.
Natalie: It takes a lot of work. And I think with any of the numbers, it takes a lot of work to get to that place. But Hey, if you're married to, or you're in a relationship with Nate, it is worth it. Yeah,
Bryan: absolutely. It is. And so we are so glad that we'd be able to do this with you.
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And as you have heard us say many times before we believe that marriage can be reset recharged.
Natalie: Thanks for listening.