FINDING GOD ON PARK STREET

Jeth Fogg '27: Christ All The Way

• Grace Klise, STM Assistant Chaplain • Season 3 • Episode 6

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Jeth Fogg, a sophomore at Yale, shares his journey to the Catholic Church, sparked by engaging with the Church’s intellectual tradition alongside friends. From the thought-provoking texts of Aristotle and Augustine to the supportive community at Saint Thomas More, Jeff’s story is a testament to the transformative power of intellectual and spiritual exploration. We uncover how his intellectual curiosity guided him to ask questions about the meaning of life, which ultimately led him home to the Church. 

Still, as part of Jeth’s conversion process, he wrestled with what surrender to God meant, as well as how to cultivate an interior life that conforms the heart to God. The sacraments, especially Confession, are a big part of that, as is a daily Ignatian Examen. With a heart and mind attuned to God, Jeth shares how life on campus looks different these days. In his words, it’s “Christ all the way.” Thankfully, Jeth and other students don’t have to pursue Christ alone; STM exists to ensure that we have a community of faith walking together towards Christ. 

Join us as we explore the beauty of continuous learning, the importance of community, and the liberating power of a life centered around Christ. This episode promises to ignite your faith and remind you of the profound freedom found in embracing “Christ all the way.”


Mentioned in this episode: Davenport Pops Orchestra, the Ignatian Examen, the Elm Institute

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Grace Klise:

This is Finding God on Park Street, a podcast from Saint Thomas More Yale's Catholic Chapel and Center. I'm your host, Grace Klise, with Michelle Keefe as our student co-host. Thanks for joining. Jeth Fogg is excited to be Catholic and we, speaking for all the other Catholics out there, are thrilled to have him as a brother in Christ.

Grace Klise:

As is the case for many of our students at Saint Thomas More, Jeth's journey home to the Catholic Church was through the Church's intellectual tradition as well as through good literature. The books that Jeth was reading in high school and the conversations he was sharing with friends were pointing him towards beauty, truth and goodness. So it wasn't long after Jeth started at Yale that he found his way to STM and ultimately to full communion with the Church at the Easter Vigil last spring. In his own words, it was "Christ all the way.

Grace Klise:

In this conversation, Jeth gives us a sense of what he was experiencing intellectually and spiritually throughout the preparation process last year, as well as how life is different on campus as a Catholic whose life is about Christ over and above anything else, for both lifelong Catholics and those who are curious. Listening to this conversation will ignite your faith and impress upon you the freedom of life with Christ. And as we wrap up season three of the podcast, we are grateful for this reminder. Let's dive in.

Grace Klise:

Jeth, you've probably done this a million times, but can you give us the classic Yale ?

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, of course I'm Jeth. You guys know me, but I'm a sophomore here at Yale College, majoring in ethics, politics and economics, with a certificate in medieval studies, which is kind of the passion part of the whole education thing, and, yeah, I don't know involved in some things on campus. STM, is a big part of my life. I enjoy playing hockey, also in Davenport Pops Orchestra. I love playing the viola, cool.

Grace Klise:

I didn't know that about you. That's a more involved Yale introduction than I usually get from students, so that was very helpful. What college are you at? Saybrook, okay.

Michelle Keefe:

Yeah, to be honest, I didn't know that there was like a typical Yale introduction. I think for undergrads, I don't know what would it be for a grad student.

Grace Klise:

I mean I guess like name and program, but I guess like your, your Ph. D. or your grad Yale introduction.

Michelle Keefe:

I mean, it's usually just like going around a table. You're like hi, I'm Michelle Keefe. I'm a second year Ph. D. in medieval studies. And then, sometimes if you want to get more involved. It's like and this is what I'm working on, this is what I did over the summer. It doesn't feel as as neat of a presentation.

Grace Klise:

Do you feel like because, Michelle, you've been here longer than Jeth has on campus that there's many interactions between grads and undergrads, or opportunities for grads and undergrads to interact?

Michelle Keefe:

I would say at YDS I came actually during the COVID year, so during that year, no. But since being more involved, especially with STM and then also in a lot of classes, I find the undergrads have really really fascinating perspectives and like so bright and so on top of things, I mean really when I'm listening to contributions in class and it's a grad seminar and you'll have these undergrad students who are just right there with it in the conversation giving really insightful and thoughtful contributions, and so I've been really loving those spaces when you can have really productive conversations. But I would say the majority of my interaction with undergrads is actually STM, just the day-to-day, not even in the programming, but like the life of the liturgy, and then I would say that is mostly where I, as a grad student, run into undergrads.

Grace Klise:

I do think that's something that STM offers campus in a really unique, beautiful way. This community of grads, undergrads, faculty and staff who especially are coming together on Sundays to worship but then are enjoying brunch or dinner together, are passing each other lectures.

Grace Klise:

There have been, I feel like, more grad/ undergrad joint events over the course of the last year or two, especially some of the holiday parties. So I do feel like that is a space where that intersection is more common versus in a lot of other spaces on campus where, kind of naturally, undergrads and grads are just doing different things and involved in different things. But how does it feel, Jeth, coming back from the summer as a sophomore a little more firmly established on campus, in comparison to maybe fall semester of your first year?

Jeth Fogg:

Sure, yeah, I think I was definitely scrambling a little bit. Last year I was in the Directed Studies program, which it's pretty intensive. I was not used to reading that much and I came in. I'm like, oh, 100 pages a day, that's nice. But I'm not in DS anymore, but I still kind of still try to be involved in the humanities in some capacity, but it's nice. I'm taking five classes this year, which is more than I'm used to, but I wouldn't say they're as intensive as DS, which is nice. I'm able to kind of engage with some more extracurriculars, which is good, and it's been great to meet the new freshmen too.

Jeth Fogg:

I know there are quite a few who are getting used to STM. I mean, I was in that position. I know what it's like, especially not necessarily being part of the Church yet, and it's difficult. I remember one night I cold emailed David and I was like hey, like well, what's this whole RCIA thing and trying to get some grounding at STM, and I couldn't be more thankful for a place that just brought me in and is a true home. I think anyone who spends any amount of time at STM knows I kind of live there. So it's been wonderful and I'm super excited, super blessed, to be here.

Grace Klise:

Yeah, and to be back as a sophomore just when you know those places on campus that are home to you and you already have a relationship with people there, it just makes the start of the new academic year so much easier and smoother and, as you said, then you're able to share that with new students, whether first years or transfer students, which is a great gift to be able to pass that on and invite people into these spaces that have become home to you. Do you have favorite spots in the Golden Center?

Jeth Fogg:

Do I have favorite? I'm a big fan of the library upstairs. I spend a good amount of time there. Dining hall is always great. I'll mooch off the snacks every day. I've been getting used to the meditation room a little bit. I've used that a little more this year. I didn't last year. Love the Chapel, obviously. Oh, the Riggs Study favorite spot in STM. Also love the garden. All of STM is great.

Grace Klise:

Yeah, it's hard to find a bad spot.

Michelle Keefe:

What are the spots you don't go in.

Jeth Fogg:

That's the question right, I don't think I have an answer for you.

Grace Klise:

That's great. We love seeing students in all corners of the Golden Center and I'm curious, talking about this transition being in your second year.

Michelle Keefe:

Right, you don't have to do all the transitions that the first years are going through. Do you already feel that sense of being able to welcome students into the STM and show them around or engage or show off sort of like, oh, this is where we do this, or that?

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, I think so. I remember last year we had this Chick-fil-A social during Bulldog Days and we had Boba and everything and I just loved that atmosphere, having the new kids come in show them around STM. And if anything like I'm even more established now and you know I don't necessarily want to be a mentor because I don't think I'm that qualified for these I want to be these kids friends and just have, you know, be someone that they can talk to whenever they come to STM. Whether it be problems, just chat about how life is.

Grace Klise:

So that's been really great. It's really, really important to have those upperclassmen sophomores included, to be able to point first years to just as peers, but role models in a way too, but, as you said, friends, in a way that the staff can't be living in the college with them and seeing them in the dining hall and walking to class. So, yeah, thank you for the role that you are playing and will continue to play. So you've alluded to this already, but you did not come into Yale as a Catholic. Like, can you take us back a little bit to when you first were maybe exposed to the faith or became a little bit more interested in Catholicism?

Jeth Fogg:

Of course. I think there's kind of a time and a point in everyone's life when they need to seriously consider the question of faith. It comes at different points, right, but I think for me it kind of came somewhere partway through high school maybe, maybe 11th or 12th grade. So I didn't go to a Catholic high school, but there are lots of Catholics at my school and my friends had a huge part in my kind of like conversion. It's funny I have four friends who are in my high school class. They're like in my Greek class and they're all in the seminary now, which is that's remarkable odds, right. I can just name drop them there's Joey, Stephen, Isaac and also Chris. They're awesome and they definitely were a huge part in exposing me to the faith, but you know, they weren't pushy or anything. So I knew of Catholicism, certainly. But I think it really just took that deep reflection from myself to kind of consider the question of faith, and it came for me through reading.

Jeth Fogg:

I read Aristotle, his ethics, loved it, thought it was great. I was like, okay, this is what it's like to be a moral person. I was like, oh well, none of us are particularly moral. We all have our shortcomings, which is why we need redemption. And in 12th grade I read Aquinas' Treatise on Law, which is not explicitly a moral work but I loved its work kind of as a political philosophy and got very interested in Aquinas, read some other things. I was like, oh, this guy's awesome. And obviously Aristotle says the telos, or the end of human life, is happiness. With Aquinas it's blessedness, it's happiness in a way, with God, and God is the end of human life. Essentially I was like, okay, so what is God?

Jeth Fogg:

And senior year I read this book, Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, hugely influential for me, probably still tied for my favorite book with Augustine's Confessions. So I'm reading through the book and there's this character named Father Zosima. Father Zosima is great, but there's a chapter in there called the biography of Father Zosima or something like that. I read that and he gives just very poignant view of who God is. Of course we hold that. God is love. He says the same thing and he has a great analysis of love. And when we ought to love, he says love everything, love man even in his sin. You know, once you love everything, you'll perceive the divine mystery and things. I was like, oh, but what is love? Really, of course the highest form of love is Jesus's passion on the cross. For us and I just definitely was you know I'm drawn to Christianity and that book was very captivating for me because what's better to devote yourself to than the highest form of love that there is? So that was very attractive.

Jeth Fogg:

I think the intellectual tradition of Catholicism kind of drew me in initially. Then Dostoevsky saying you know, love, that is God, that's what we're called to do. I think that brought me all the way in. So the summer between high school and college I kind of read some Gospels, read a little bit about Church history, and I was convinced. I was like all right, I'm going to do this thing. I've waited long enough. I thought it would be better to kind of go through the confirmation process at a new place and thankfully STM has been really wonderful and funny enough, I have a lot of friends from my high school who've done the same exact thing. I think in my grade maybe four kids have converted or reverted to Catholicism, which is so, so cool and it's funny. It's not a Catholic high school, but something in the water.

Jeth Fogg:

I think it has to do with the humanities, because you know the humanities. It gets down to the central question of what does it mean to fully be a human being? What does it mean to pursue goodness, truth and beauty? And what does it mean to fully be a human being? What does it mean to pursue goodness, truth and beauty? And they did a wonderful job fostering that. I mean, I don't think any of us have a comprehensive answer of what it means to be most fully human, but I think that kind of set me down the path of inquiry. And I think we're most fully human when we feed our longing for Christ. I guess and there's a great St Augustine quote it's probably my favorite quote at the beginning of the Confessions you made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.

Jeth Fogg:

And I definitely found that in my high school life I'd work hard, do all these things, it's all good and well, but never was particularly satisfied. You know, do all these things get into Yale? Wow, how about that? But still, you know, sometimes you just feel unfulfilled, despite all the great things that God blesses us with, but ultimately he's leading us to him and you know, bless that I've been here.

Michelle Keefe:

So, praise God for all that you had mentioned that, the humanities and the medieval side. That was more of the passion. You said the passion part, and so I'm curious and now that makes a lot more sense to see sort of the intellectual tradition as mentors. Right, you're mentioning these texts and these authors and these great church figures as personal mentors, and you also mentioned your friends having a really critical role in sort of helping guide you. I'm curious who are the guides that you've been seeing? At your time at Yale? I imagine you're still turning to some of these wonderful authors and Church fathers. Have you been able to find good mentors, whether in a text or in a person, here through the STM community?

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jeth Fogg:

I mean I'm taking the Catholic intellectual tradition right now, which you know is just bringing me closer to the tradition, which is great. I love that thing. I'm a big Catholic nerd, I think, STM, I mean so many things that have brought me closer. I think the people my friend you guys know Morgan. Morgan's the best, yeah, he's awesome. We try to pray a rosary daily and he's, you know, helped to kind of draw me in intellectually but also spiritually, because there's kind of a two-part conversion that needs to happen. I was definitely drawn in by the intellectual side of Catholicism, but you can read all the theology or philosophy that you want. At some point you need to convert your will and you know that's difficult. We turn away from Christ daily and we need to keep kind of reverting, repenting and turning back. So that's a never-ending process. Let's see what else.

Jeth Fogg:

Father Ryan, I remember coming to my first Mass at STM like all right, we're going to do this thing, we're going to be Catholic. I heard Father Ryan's homily. I was like wow, he's so articulate in how he speaks. I look at Father Ryan's Masses and I'm just so motivated, the intention behind it. And of course that's the same for every Mass. Mass is Mass. But you know, he's been a huge spiritual director for me. Not even just talking to him one-on-one, just listening to him speak is like wow, this guy's clearly on fire with love for the Lord.

Jeth Fogg:

And, you know, same with a lot of the students at STM. I mean David he ran RCIA for me and also someone who loves the Lord with all his heart, I can tell. And there are lots of friends at STM who just kind of brought me closer to the Church, made me think about my faith, and, honestly, friends outside of the Catholic spirit. Necessarily, I have lots of Jewish friends who ask me why do you believe? And it's forced me to kind of understand my beliefs and, and you know, grow more steadfast in it. For anyone who is, you know, questioning, oh, what, like what does it mean to be Catholic at Yale, I imagine? Do you get a bad rep? Does that happen? And absolutely not. It's amazing, it's the best thing ever.

Grace Klise:

It sounds like friends have been a big part of this ongoing conversion, different fathers and thinkers, and then how those have continued, either with your high school friends or you said you know sharing spiritual life and spiritual practices with friends here at Yale. But what have? What do those conversations look like outside of the classroom, or maybe even, you know, outside STM?

Jeth Fogg:

I think, well, they kind of initiated, they're good evangelizers, right. But they, it comes out of a place of love for them, and I think it gets back to what is the meaning of human life. You have to ask that at some point, and for me during high school, it's like, oh, I want to get into a good college, have a good family, make good money and with a good job, and that's all good and well, but ultimately you need rest. You need rest in something that you can fully devote yourself to, and it's kind of the nature of these material things to keep striving for them, keep going, keep going, keep going. But where is the true rest? And that's when I bring the Augustine quote up.

Jeth Fogg:

There's also a really great Thomistic philosopher named Joseph Pieper who wrote a book called Leisure, the Basis of Culture. That's a great one. Obviously, the highest form of leisure not laziness, but true leisure is in divine worship, and I would definitely talk to my friends about that sort of thing. They would kind of prod me a little bit and say, oh, why don't you believe that, oh, why wouldn't you believe this? And at times I could be frustrated.

Jeth Fogg:

I think a lot of Catholics have had the experience of, I don't know, reading the Gospels or reading Church Doctrines saying, oh, that's some crazy bigoted thing. But then it really takes you humbling yourself to understand that that comes from a place of love, the highest form of love. So I think, if anything, I need to dial down my own pride, and they helped me to kind of become more humble as a human being so I could accept what true love is. And I'm still staying in touch with them. Obviously they're in the seminary so I think they only get their phone one day per week, but I stay in touch when I can and it's always good to hear from them. This summer we actually formed a reading group and we called it the dumb oxen.

Jeth Fogg:

After St. Thomas Aquinas, because we all love Aquinas who doesn't? So we formed a reading group and read the Idiot by Dostoevsky and a couple other things. There's a really good book called A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Van Alken which great book would highly recommend.

Jeth Fogg:

So we did that. We made rosaries together, which I want to do with STM, by the way, if we want a promo for an event, I think we should make rosaries. So it's been a never-ending conversation with these guys and I mean I look up to them so much because I know how immature I've been, how immature many people are, but they're so patient. I look at these people and they're truly individuals made in likeness and image of God, and I look at them as role models and want to become more like them every day because they're ultimately leading me to Christ.

Michelle Keefe:

I'm assuming they're. They're still in formation.

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, two of them are in their second year of seminary and two of them are in their first year of seminary.

Michelle Keefe:

Are they diocesan?

Jeth Fogg:

Diocesan.

Michelle Keefe:

I'm excited for if, when the day day comes, when you're able to be there when they're ordained, and then for their first Masses, and to have you in their journey as well, right, like they're walking with you but you're also walking with them, and I think that that is just a really beautiful thing that would be super special.

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, and I know they're going to give such good homilies, so I can't wait for the stories.

Grace Klise:

Cannot wait. It is a real gift from God, like, truly a gift from God the people that he gives us to walk alongside us as we are stumbling and falling and trying to do this better and getting up and getting frustrated and encouraging us to return to the sacraments. I think that one of the greatest blessings of STM is that, yes, it's a place where we can celebrate the Mass and you can get free food and there are great study spots, but it also is a place where people gather and you'll likely run into someone else. Maybe you haven't met them before, but they might be Catholic. They might not be Catholic, but often people are drawn to that space because they are interested in these questions or they're seeking out some silence and quiet amidst a busy, busy campus.

Grace Klise:

And, as you said, Jeth, those are things that, as humans, you know, made in God's image and likeness we are drawn to and we often get distracted by a lot of the other things that we think are going to satiate that longing. For you to have come upon that by the grace of God and in your own curiosity as a high school student and then coming to Yale and your first year here, saying this is something that I want to commit myself to. I just really commend you because, at at such a young age, to do that and to recognize, okay, what the world is promising me, what the world is saying is going to make me happy, I know ultimately is not going to fulfill these deepest longings. I feel like that's something that I continue to have to relearn, when you know there's a goal that I'm going after and I maybe put that at a higher priority than than it should be and realize in the end how unsatisfactory it is because it wasn't supposed to be the highest priority. So, um, just really commend you for the journey that you have been on and all of us continue to be on. I'm curious what your interior life looks like.

Grace Klise:

You've talked a lot about the writings and the conversations that you were having. You have mentioned devotion to the rosary, but how did you learn during this time to pray?

Jeth Fogg:

That's a good question. I actually had a conversation with Father Ryan about this not too long ago. That was a genuine question I had of mine. I was like, ok, so what does prayer really look like? And I had researched about what does meditating on the rosary mean, all these things, different ways to pray like Lectio Divina. And Father Ryan mentioned one thing specifically.

Jeth Fogg:

It's kind of an examination of conscience at the end of each day, but you kind of do it in screenshots, right. You look at, okay, that interaction with that person. Where did I go wrong? Where did I not disappoint God? But where did I not follow his will? Where did I do well? What can I emulate in the future? So I think doing that as the day winds down leads to a good rest, of course, and you can wake up the next day saying, okay, in these ways I'm going to try to do better than yesterday. And of course you know there are certainly nights where I'm up late in the library and I get home and I just conk out and I'm done. But I think I'm going to try to make that a more persistent part of my schedule, for sure, and something that you . before.

Jeth Fogg:

I want to comment on it a little bit, because you kind of talked about like this journey that we're all on and some of us might have the presence of mind only by the grace of God to worship him. And I'll talk to a lot of people and they'll say you know, I'm not particularly religious. And I'll think to myself you know, I kind of think you are. I think everybody's religious in some sense. If you look at the Israelites, they're certainly religious in Exodus when they worship the golden calf, but we're worshiping the wrong thing.

Jeth Fogg:

And ultimately, you know this path, it comes down for all of us keeping the hierarchy of God first, because we're going to worship something. It's either going to be God it might be mammon, which you know I see that on campus a lot too or it can be ourselves, which I think that's kind of where we revert to if we're not worshiping God, and we all fall into that. It takes the humility of mind to submit your own intentions, submit what you want and give it to God, because you know he asked us to pray the Lord's Prayer and give us this day our daily bread. We're not supposed to worry about tomorrow, because he's going to provide for us, so we don't need to worry about the next internship or the next job necessarily. Trust in God and he's going to provide which. We all struggle with that, but it's always something to come back to.

Grace Klise:

Yeah, for sure. And I think the grace of the sacraments too. Oh man, the times that I've fallen and failed and think, okay, if I just can get to confession and I know it's almost a teacher used to use this image of the plug falls out, you plug it back into the wall. Just keep plugging it back in. And at least I can rest on that, knowing how weak my will is. I can rest on that and the belief I have in the power of the sacraments.

Jeth Fogg:

I have a really good confession story if you guys want to hear it.

Grace Klise:

Yes, okay, that's a good one.

Jeth Fogg:

So in the process of getting confirmed, going through RCA, all of that, David comes up to me and says Jeth, are you coming on the retreat next week? I'm like, David, there's a retreat next weekend. And he's like, yeah, and he gives me all the information. I sign up pretty late. I'm like, all right, sure, why not? I have so much schoolwork to do but might as well go get some rest before the semester really gets going. This is last year, so I go on the retreat not really anticipating much. I have some of my friends there, not super tight with anyone, but that retreat truly changed my life. Praise be to God and to STM for having that retreat.

Jeth Fogg:

So I went and I knew that I had to go to confession because I had already been baptized. I had to go to confession to be confirmed or be in good standing. So it was kind of a spontaneous spur of the moment thing. And Father Anthony was there and he's just such a funny guy and there's not a better priest to have your first confession with. And I talked to him beforehand because we're in these small discussion groups discussing faith and whatnot.

Jeth Fogg:

I didn't know how to make a good confession, I didn't really know too much about it. So I talked to him beforehand about it and he's, like you know, explaining these things to me and you know I go in the confession. It wasn't really confessional, just we're in the library, like talking, and it was so good and so liberating. I just burst into tears during it and it was truly the best thing ever. And anyone who's weary of, you know, confession, I'd say just try it, you're good, you're going to feel the grace of God in there and I certainly did. And in that moment I just knew and that that was definitely one of, if not the moment, where my will was like okay, Christ, all the way. So that was great and you know, praise be Jesus, praise be STM for having that retreat.

Michelle Keefe:

Yeah, it's interesting because it is something where even you know, talking with other friends, even other Catholics who, confession is one of those things where it just feels strange or it feels like, ah, it's, it's too embarrassing, I don't want to have to do it, you know, you have to almost like drag yourself to. Am I really going to say all the all of the worst parts of me? But it's interesting because I always walk away with that sense of just that. The grace man, the grace of that sacrament, the grace of that space is so palpable and I'm so grateful. Father Anthony is a wonderful mentor and I think so many people I know and so many students have really loved his, his accompaniment in their own faith journeys and so I'm really grateful that that was, that that was an experience for you as well, which makes me actually very curious. I'm really excited. So I grew up Catholic and so, like my first Communion was very much in the context of my first grade.

Michelle Keefe:

You know, first grade we were learning and then second grade, we get our Communion as class, but to be able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist for the first time as an adult. Can you tell us about that? So the confession, Confirmation, any of the sacraments that you want to talk about Eucharist, I'm really excited to hear what was that like for you as an adult to have that moment for the first time.

Jeth Fogg:

It was pretty surreal and there's something special about kind of like, like you said, you go in second grade and you receive Communion not necessarily that big of a deal. I mean it is a big deal but you don't think of it personally as being that big of a deal. When you're that young you can't quite register it yet yeah, it's different.

Jeth Fogg:

And there's something nice about choosing for yourself, "Okay, I want this. And when you finally become a part of the church and you're able to receive communion, it's amazing. I remember Easter vigil and receiving communion was so great. But the part of the liturgy that really got me was watching some fellow students that were in RCIA with me seeing them get baptized. I started crying during that. It was my favorite thing. That was the best part of the night, because it's all great that I'm doing this, but to see other people doing it and engaging similarly and being so devoted and it's amazing.

Grace Klise:

No words. Yeah, there's a great picture of you receiving your first Communion, Father Ryan giving you the Eucharist that is hanging in the dining hall right now.

Michelle Keefe:

How do you feel when you walk into STM and you see that, I'm sure you know it takes you back to that moment?

Jeth Fogg:

Oh, it's amazing. It's definitely my favorite picture ever. I'll say that much. All my friends like to make fun of me. They're like, oh, you're the poster boy, quite literally. But I love that picture and I was talking to David and he's like man, "That's a special picture because it's special for me and I think anyone who wants to enter the church can look at that and be encouraged, because it's difficult sometimes to pursue Catholicism when you have lots of different ideologies and secularism that's in your air constantly. I mean that's pervasive in today's culture. But you're going to find a peace and a liberty that is so much fairer than anything else.

Grace Klise:

Can you talk a little bit about what that has felt like, like actually coming to know intellectually but then working to conform your will also to the reality that our true rest is in God alone, especially being a young person on this campus, inundated with ideas that are true rest, or true sense of self, comes from scoring this internship or a GPA or a salary. What has that been like? Has that really? Has that changed how you move through campus and move through your interactions, just knowing that my identity doesn't rest on these fleeting things but it actually truly rests on something that endures and is unchanging.

Jeth Fogg:

Most definitely. I find a lot of peace in that it's very easy to get caught up in the day-to-day life at Yale because I'm busy, we're all busy, and it's very easy to worry about the future and sometimes we tend to kind of value ourselves and, unfortunately, sometimes make judgments of other people's value based on what they accomplish, which is not right, because we're all dignified human beings. So, if anything, it's given me a sense of peace, and it gives me a sense of peace for other people too, where I hope they don't have to worry too much because it truly is all going to work out in the end.

Grace Klise:

Reminder that we all probably need it at various points, especially, you know, midterm season or final season. So remember that what can seem so urgent and important, really, with the perspective that faith gives us, does not mean that much at all when we remember who we are and in whose image we are made.

Michelle Keefe:

It's interesting to think about the freedom that comes from recognizing our limitations, recognizing that all of these other things don't satisfy, right, that we are on this journey of just constantly seeking God. Until you know, our hearts are restless, until they rest in you, right. It's that freedom and that grace that comes from being able to really wrestle with those questions. It's so liberating, brings such a joy. I think what I keep thinking about actually in this conversation is the Garden of Gethsemane. You've talked about this like conforming of your will, and that's where we see Christ's will is perfectly conformed in that moment of Gethsemane. Right, like, take this cup from me and then, okay, not my will but yours.

Michelle Keefe:

Right, there's this sense of the concurrence of the will, of the two wills of Christ really coming together, and I'm curious, cause that's that seems to have been a theme that's come out in a couple times in the way that we've talked about. I don't know you've talke d about this telos and this journey, but then the sense of like conforming the will, it feels like there's a joy in the way that you operate. Even that sense of you talked about. Your favorite moment at Mass at the Easter vigil was watching your friends get Baptized. Like you have such an other facing way about you. It's just a really beautiful witness and I'm curious if you have thoughts about this sense of the struggle that you have of conforming your will while also helping others in their journeys.

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. I could go so much and do Aquinas because I love Aquinas, but he has a really good definition of love willing the good of the other as other, as themselves. You know, not necessarily always trying to change who they are. Of course we want their actions to conform to God's will, but we're not changing who they are and I appreciate you saying that of me. But I'm not even sure I deserve that praise that much because we all stray from that. I can think of so many times where I was like, oh, why am I so stupid? Why did I do this? The Garden of Gethsemane thing is very interesting because the fruit of that mystery is like concurrence with God's will and I guess I have been meditating on that one too much.

Grace Klise:

That's fair. The really neat thing about theology and about our tradition is people you know will study this their whole lives and it's just a drop in the bucket, which is really exciting for all of us, whether we've been Catholic our whole lives or have been Catholic less than a year, that there's just so much that we can continue to explore the richness of this tradition. It is just this treasure trove that, as we go deeper, continues to expand, and so I think about that sometimes. Whether I've been wrestling with something theologically or have reached a plateau or a period of dryness in my spiritual life greater than I ever will be, and the thinking that they've done when it comes to who God is and who God is calling us to be, are there, Jeth, that, especially as a newer Catholic, that you are really excited to learn more about theologically?

Jeth Fogg:

Oh, there's so many things, so I'll tell a quick story to preempt. I went to this Aquinas reading group today with the Elm Institute and these people are so unbelievably smart. They're talking about Aquinas is, you know, summa contra Gentiles and all these things. I'm like man, I don't even know what these words mean, but I think I'm just super excited to be in an atmosphere and intellectual space with those people, because where the real fruits of learning come from is through dialogue.

Jeth Fogg:

You can read all you want, but I think from talking with people of different backgrounds, you know we all have different proclivities, things that we're good at. Just listening to everybody's speech and where they're coming from, we can gain so much from that. So again, I keep going back to the people. But, theologically, things I'm looking forward to reading about can never get too much. Augustine I'm working through the City of God right now. I struggled with it the first time I tried to read it, but going through it again, giving it another shot, there's so many theological terms that I don't even know much about, like eschatology and Christology and all these things. But, like Grace said, there's so much fruit to reap from this tradition and you know, as I keep reading. Whatever it may be, I'm just going to keep going on catholic answers. com and finding the next book to read.

Jeth Fogg:

So yeah, and you know, sometimes I found this in DS a couple of times where I'm like, oh, do I have to read this book? You know, sometimes I end up not reading the book, but it's never the case with books that concern your faith. I just enjoy reading them. I'm like, oh, let's go read the Confessions in Latin. Let's go read the Summa, speaking of which I bought the whole set of the Summa this summer--highlight of the year.

Michelle Keefe:

It's a good present for yourself, yeah.

Jeth Fogg:

So there's just so many things to kind of learn about. I learned that Aquinas has a huge set of commentaries on, you know, on the Gospels, which is really cool, so I want to start reading those a little bit.

Michelle Keefe:

Do you see a potential for possibly moving into like a theological academic space? Maybe in I'm not sure if that's something in future years at Yale or maybe even beyond Yale. It sounds like you're really taken by the texts and the tradition and these incredible sources and it feels very much like theology is just pulling you in and I'm really excited.

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, no, no, no, I'm definitely into it. I've thought about it. I think teaching would be very, very cool. I look at, uh, Carlos Eire, who teaches Catholic Intellectual Tradition. I'm like, can I be that man? When I'm older, please.

Jeth Fogg:

Um, David told me. He said you know, if you're not careful and you keep reading all these things, you're going to become a priest just like your friends he said your girlfriend's not going to be too happy about that one.

Jeth Fogg:

But yeah, I definitely would consider that in the future if it's in God's plan for me. Right now, I'm definitely interested in law school just because I like writing. It's probably what I'm good at, compared to other STEM things. I'm not good at STEM. Never come to me with a science question. But yeah, if that door opens, I'd be happy to take it up.

Grace Klise:

We'll see what God has in store. Well, we're so grateful that you came to STM, found STM, and we are all really truly graced by your presence and your zeal especially. I'll speak for both of us as cradle Catholics. The RCIA process and the Easter Vigil of new people coming into the Church or coming into full communion with the Church is just one of the highlights of the year and I think for me, it really reminds me of the gift of our faith that I can take for granted, because it's always just been a given, and it lights a fire under me in a new way.

Grace Klise:

Every spring, I think, across the city, dozens of people coming into the church and saying yes, yes, Lord, this is where I want to be and you are the one that I want to be pursuing. So again, just commend you for taking that step, because it does require courage. Curiosity, yes, but also courage, and praise God for the community of friends and saints and Church fathers who have been accompanying you along the way.

Michelle Keefe:

Truly, if I can jump in. I mean, that's one of the reasons when people ask me why I'm Catholic or what is it I love about the Catholic faith, particularly there's a couple answers, but for sure it's the communion of saints. Like to have such a cloud of witnesses, both living and who have, who are currently in heaven. Right, these, these people who are constantly with us, guiding us, helping us in this journey. Like we are constantly being accompanied by so many more who have gone before us and who are currently with us, and I just, I am just so I love that. That's been your entrance into the Church. Like you have been surrounded by witnesses and they have been walking with you and I'm excited to imagine they will continue walking with you, you know, and that's-.

Jeth Fogg:

They're rooting for us. They're rooting for all of us.

Michelle Keefe:

And you're walking with them, like, I think that it's just a really, it's a really cool part about being Catholic, I think, when we really we look to these mentors and we walk with them and we are them and we are Church together. Right, we are Church.

Jeth Fogg:

Yeah, and yeah, that's interesting because you know Christ kind of. He takes away all of our sins so that we may become like him. Sometimes it's difficult to look at him and say, okay, how does that fit into my life? We're living in a much different day and age than first century Palestine, but that's why I love the saints so much, because there are these Christ-like figures who I can look towards and say, oh, you know Aquinas as a scholar blessed, Carlo Acutis and you know, closer to today's day and age.

Jeth Fogg:

So, yeah, that's something very special about the Catholic faith that I appreciate.

Grace Klise:

So our final question, Jeth, for all guests this season is where do you find God on campus?

Jeth Fogg:

Sure, I think I have two kind of answers for this one. The first one I think God is implicit in beautiful things. Beautiful things point towards God and if you look at Yale's campus, look at Sterling, look at Harkness, beauty is everywhere. I think, the environment. If you walk up Hill House Avenue and see St Mary's on the right and walk across anywhere in Yale's campus, walk across anywhere in Yale's campus, there's something deeply salient and effect on the soul that studying and living in a beautiful place has. I like studying in beautiful places. Bass Library gets a lot of grief because people don't like studying there.

Jeth Fogg:

That's why I go to Sterling, right up above and you know, studying in this place that truly looks like a cathedral. I think that just helps direct me towards God. And I think the second, probably more important, answer is the people. We've talked about it a lot. I find God in the people here and my friends because they captivate me intellectually and you know we draw each other in, we pray the rosary together, all of these things and also at STM. God is so present with STM, with the tenets of, you know, study, pray and act. I see that all the time. I went to my first undergrad council meeting and you know seeing everyone's so enthused about, you know, events that are going to go on, or now the weekly rosaries that are going to happen at STM. It's super exciting. I'm so excited for the STM community and for it to shine across Yale this year.

Grace Klise:

Thank you, Jeth, and thanks to everyone who listened. We'll see you next time on Finding God on Park Street. If you enjoyed listening today, please share this episode with a friend or relative and leave us a rating and review so more people can find our podcast. The producer of this podcast is Robin McShane, director of Communications at STM. Sound mixing and editing are by Ryan McEvoy of Yale Broadcast Studio and graphics are by Mary Lou Cadwell of Cadwell Art Direction. We hope this podcast encourages you to seek God today and every day. You are in our prayers. I'm your host, Grace Klise, with Michelle Keefe as our student co-host. Thanks for joining.

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