Later Life Lesbians - Part 1

You’re married or partnered, maybe have children, a career and your identity is heterosexual, but then you’re single again and unexpectedly you fall in love with a woman. How does that work?

Guided by the host, Beth Armstrong, three bold, funny and wise women speak together anonymously to share their stories of coming out later in life and how it has affected their lives. 

Some topics included in this discussion may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Topics include: 

• coming out 
• blended families 
• gay marriage 
• identity 
• religion 
• online dating/ one night stands
• love 
• heteronormative privilege
• single mother 
• identifying words and pronouns  
• sex / intimacy 
• lesbian films and television
• symbols
• discrimination  
• references to violence towards the gay community 
• self-acceptance 
• IVF
• Community

Share women's wisdom worldwide  -  for everyone. 

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We appreciate your feedback and suggestions.
Contact Beth at:  beth@curveballmedia.com.au

Sound production: Unison Sound.
Producer: Luke Mynott, Beth Armstrong
Host: Beth Armstrong
Editor: Tom Herdman, Mija Healey.
Sound Engineer: Micayla Laurence, Cihan Siral.
Composer: Biddy Connor
Artwork: wisebrownfox

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Transcript

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Beth Armstrong (00 : 00) 

Warning. This episode includes a discussion that some may find triggering or distressing. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 Double 24636 or Lifeline on 13 Double 114. Hi, Welcome to Curveball, the club you didn't want to be part of. I'm Beth Armstrong. Sometimes in life, something comes out of left field and we're knocked sideways, be it cancer, miscarriage or divorce. How do we change for the better or worse by these experiences and how do we manage? This is a late night, no holds barred black comedy discussion between three women speaking anonymously, strangers who just happened to be members of the same club. Usually we record episodes with everyone together in a sound studio. 

Rose (00 : 49)
 Occasionally due to restrictions Beth Armstrong (00 : 51) 

Or distance we need to record remotely. As such, you may notice small variations in sound quality. Again, we felt our conversation warranted two episodes, so please enjoy part one of later life lesbians. You're married or partnered, maybe have Children. A career. Your identity is heterosexual, but then you're single again and unexpectedly, you fall in love with a woman. So how does that work? Tonight's club is the later Life Lesbian Club, and I'm very pleased to welcome Rose, Nancy and Mary, who are all speaking under pseudonyms. They have chosen Mary. Why don't you tell me your story in a nutshell, and then we'll just see where the conversation takes us. 

Mary (01 : 36) 

Well, I'm 41. When I was 21 I had my first experience with a woman. I fell in love with her, and I had to completely ignore that. I didn't even have an opportunity to consider it. I was in a very cultish religion, very fundamentalist Christian. And so then I got married, and I was with my husband for 16 years until one day something happened and I made the decision to walk away from the religion, from my friends, and from my husband and I started a journey, and that was only two years ago. I started the journey of self-discovery, dating and then meeting my fiance, um, who I absolutely love and I proposed only a few weeks ago. So it's been a huge pathway, but here I am. 

Beth Armstrong (02 : 30) 

Thank you for your story. There's so much to unpack there. I can't wait to hear more. So, let's go to Nancy. 

Nancy (02 : 38) 

I had a similar start, so I'm 51 now. Um, and I came out when I was 35. I was in a very closeted fundamentalist church. Um, we couldn't dance, swear, drink anything, really. And so I was in that group for about 14 years from
 the age of 20 and I was actually in love with my best friend - now that I
 look back in hindsight, but I was so deep in the closet that, you know, it never got spoken. Um, I had a couple of situations where, um I chose to
 step out of the fellowship because I was struggling with the relationship that I had with my best friend, and she eventually ended up marrying a guy from a church in Melbourne. I was devastated, and I went overseas, and I came back a week before they were gonna get married, and I sort of moved on, and I was okay. And then they got married. And probably two years later, I started to suspect that I might be gay because I saw this show called The L Word. Lesbians will know what I'm talking about, but it's sort of - it's Lesbian 101 . Um, it was on television one night at about 10 o'clock, and I came home from work and I turned the TV on and there was these two women and I was like, Oh, my God. I had a flatmate; like she walked in and I'm quickly changed the channel, and, um but it just made me start to think
 hang on. Um, I found that really interesting. And then I used to work in the film industry, and I met a friend there, and she was out. So I started stalking her around Fox Studios because I was like, she knows things that I need to know. And then I had another friend in Queensland who had been asking questions over the years. I was sort of on this journey, so eventually I started to really suspect it. And I decided I should take myself out of the fellowship for six weeks and just sort of have a good think. And like Mary, for me to leave my church, I would be excommunicated. My whole community, everyone that I knew or my friends my whole life was wrapped up in this church. So it took me about a year in the end to decide to leave. So basically, I spoke to my best friends in the church. I explained why I was leaving. And the next day I was out of the fellowship and I stayed in bed all day because I was so devastated. Um and then I decided I better get up and go and find my people. So I went to Newtown because I heard that's where they all are. And I - So I just started my journey like that. And, um, I felt like an alien that had just landed on this planet. And I didn't know any of the customs. I hadn't had a drink in 15 years. I didn't know how to date people. 

I didn't know what a one night stand consisted of. Like I'd never seen Mardi Gras. We weren't allowed to watch Mardi Gras, even on TV in my church. So it was a baptism of fire. So about six months in, I'd sort of gone full circle. And now I was like a real card carrying member of the lesbian people. And I met my partner online on the pink sofa, and we didn't know how to upload our profile photos. So we actually didn't even know what each other looked like. So we arranged to meet in front of the Dendy Newtown and she was wearing a T shirt that was red. She fell in love immediately she told me. It probably took me about three days. We've been together 16 years this year; we got married in New York six years ago, just the two of us and this guy that we paid 50 bucks to be our witness. And we have two boys. Um, we're actually the only same sex couple in our area and at our school. But anyway, so that's my nutshell. 

Beth Armstrong (06 : 37) 

I love it. There are so many things for us to talk about. So, Rose, let's hear your story. 

Rose (06 : 40) 

So I was married for 13 years, had three children with a guy who was the wrong guy for me, and I was absolutely the wrong wife for him. That happened because I grew up in a family that didn't really celebrate being yourself, more following the rules. So I remember being in high school, standing on the high school oval and going Oh, I think I might be gay and then thinking, No, that's not going to work. Even though I'm from a middle class family, my parents would pride themselves on being pretty left, pretty inclusive. That's been tested in the last few years. Yeah, I just decided that was not a good choice, which is really sad when I reflect on it now. So I lived the wrong life for quite a while. I got my beautiful babies out of that, Um, really suffered, did the wrong life on every level, had a big career, thought that the goal in life was to know lots of things. And then when my little one was 10 months old, my third baby, my husband left. He sat me down to tell me, and he said, I've got feelings for someone else. And my first reaction was, I've got three little kids who the fuck's got 

Rose (07 : 52) time for Rose (07 : 53) 

feelings? So, and then when he said that I was looking at being a single mom 

with three very small kids, but I just felt relieved straight away. I didn't know back then how to say this is wrong for me or I'm unhappy, so I'm going to do something about it. And then I had a few years as a single mom and I bloody loved it. I just loved not living with anyone who had different values from me. So the bar was high in terms of next part. Uh, so I dated a little bit just for fun really. 

Rose (08 : 27) So I dated Rose (08 : 28) 

A couple of guys, actually. Then I was just in a very sex based situation with a guy, and he was having ideas about what might happen next that were different from mine. And I found myself saying to him, actually, I've been living the wrong life. I definitely want to be with a woman. That's right for me. I have had those experiences in the past, and I knew that was right for me. So we stopped seeing each other. And then I went out for a drink with my best friend the week after, and I met my now wife. 

Beth Armstrong (08 : 59)
 That's so great. And so how long have you been married? Rose (09 : 01)
 We got married two
 Rose (09 : 02)
 years ago in Australia.
 Rose (09 : 03)
 So my wife's Italian.
 Nancy (09 : 04)
 Oh, nice.
 Rose (09 : 06) 

Not being in Australia that long. So we got married in Australia in a secret wedding. Just the two of us. Then we went to Italy and had a big wedding celebration. And then we also had a wedding in Australia. For the babies, the only 

one I wanted was the secret one, just the two of us. It's different when you've been through it before. 

Beth Armstrong (09 : 28) 

It's so interesting. So, like you said, you had that thought standing on the oval. I think I'm gay. How old were you standing on the oval? 

Rose (09 : 33) 

I was 15 or something, but I still wouldn't refer to myself as lesbian. It doesn't quite fit for me. I'm probably pans sexual. I don't really know. I'm in love with my wife. I don't feel like I can use that word for myself. 

Nancy (09 : 48)
 It takes a while, I reckon. Rose (09 : 48) 

Yeah, it's also because it hasn't really been a struggle for me. My wife's path has been hard, and mine hasn't been hard in those ways, so it feels a bit like a badge of honour that title as well. But I don't feel like I. 

Nancy (10 : 01) 

The word lesbian is like bosom or frock like it's like a word where you just go when you say it. So I Actually it took me a while to be able to say lesbian. I just said I was gay for a long time. 

Rose (10 : 15)
 I prefer queer, queer or gay. Nancy (10 : 17) 

Yeah, And it was funny, too, because this is the irony of it all. Is my two best friends have been gay. So he told me that when we were about 15, he remembers me telling him that I was in love with our other best friend and I have no recollection of that at all. And also the other friend, she was like
 me, had been through a number of churches and was married to a man. And then three years into the relationship, she realised she was gay. And we're sitting on the banks of the river in Brisbane and I just had this thought and I said, Do you think I might be gay? And she just went Absolutely. Yes. I
 was like, Okay. And then I came back to Sydney and I was so terrified by what she had said, because I knew that would mean that I would have to face 

that and lose my whole life. And my pastor said, Don't ever speak to her again. And for 18 months I didn't and then she called me on my birthday
 and I was so relieved to talk to her. I said I felt terrible that I had been put in this position. So she was actually the one that I spoke to over those three years. You know, the what if scenarios And the light bulb moment was I realised I had to make this choice. And so it was 2015. So the ANZAC Day weekend, I decided I would take my Bible and go camping for three days, right? And just try and work out my shit. So I stupidly went to a campsite on the ANZAC Day weekend, so there was, like, 1500 other people there. So I got there quite late at night, and I had to pitch my tent and the only bit of grass that I could find, which the next morning I realised, was right on the edge of a cliff. Very metaphorical. The metaphors don't stop there. So I got up the next morning and I thought, right, I'm gonna open my bible and then stuck my finger down, and I think it was like that Thou shalt not eat shellfish or, you know, it was completely unrelated. Anyway, I looked up and there was a bunny rabbit, just sort of hopping around and I thought, Oh, that's cute. So I went, I better get my camera and I started photographing this bunny. I went for a swim and I came back and the rabbit was dead under the tree and I was like, Oh, my God, I just had this moment and I went, I get it. To me, it was this kind of sign. So I dug a hole. I buried the rabbit. I put everything in the car and I started driving back to Sydney and I rang my friend up in Queensland and I said, I've made my decision, I'm coming out And she just went - finally. And then I went back to Sydney and
 I called my pastor and I said, I'm leaving for good and I still couldn't say
 the word lesbian, probably for another four years. I reckon that's why I, even now, I'm still better at saying gay than lesbian. 

Mary (13 : 10) 

My awakening, Uh, when I was 20 or 21 I had two best friends, and around that time I went to Cambridge in the UK and I did a summer school when I came back and cut my hair, I lost weight. I looked different. I was writing poetry and when I came back, one of the best friends started to really her behaviour changed towards me and she started to get very close to me and very physical. And eventually she actually said to me - so she was in the same religion. She said to me, I have something to tell you. She was really nervous. And eventually she said, I think about you at night, I dream about you. She confessed that she loved me and we would write to each other. And it was very poetic and beautiful and intellectual. It felt like we had this amazing connection. And one day her family went away and I was asked to come along and stay for the night. And she had this one single bed and she asked me to sleep in the same bed as her. And this was the big moment in my 

life because she said, Can I touch you? And so she did. And I was frozen. I didn't actually move. The next day - The next morning we look out the
 window and there was just two dogs humping each other. And she said,
 We're not any different to those two dogs and it was very sad. And then that day she proceeded to flirt with this guy that was in the group and it broke my heart. It broke my heart. I was experiencing emotions and thoughts and feelings that I could not understand because up until that point, 

homosexuality was something I observed and something I even came up
 with conclusions about - oh gay people must have had a tough life. They must have been abused and suddenly I was having these feelings and I didn't understand them when she finally said, Don't ever talk to me again like we need to end this. We can't tell anyone. She just said, I love you, but don't ever speak to me again. And my other best friend was like what's happening with you guys? I don't understand what just happened, and I could never tell her. I couldn't tell anyone. Actually, I did tell one person and it was a lesbian at work. I said, hey, I had this experience and so she tried to win the toaster or - 

Nancy (15 : 32) Toaster oven. Mary (15 : 33) 

It's a toaster oven, Okay. And she was actually the first person I ever kissed. And we were intimate. And I just said to her, I cannot be with you because 99% of my happiness is God and my faith. And then I met my husband. You have to understand that I was a really good girl. I never did anything wild, but here I was having this double life. And so I stopped that; it was really hard, actually, because we worked together. And anyway, years, went by. And now it's the winter of 2019. And I was asked to look after a vineyard in Orange for a month. My husband was meant to come with me, but he couldn't. And it was just before I was introduced to all the families around this vineyard because it was quite isolated, and I needed to know my neighbours and one lady took a real liking for me. And we had great banter and chemistry, she loved the Smiths and she'd send me songs. And it was only after a week of meeting her she messaged me one night and she said, um, have you ever been unfaithful, and I was What? What the heck, no. And I just said, What do you mean? She didn't answer for a couple of days. And I think in Orange during the day, everyone is sober. But then after six - Oh, is that an Orange thing? That sounds great. Sounds amazing. So she finally said, I'm attracted to you. I'm sorry, and I said, attractions fine that we are attracted 

to our friends, and that's how it all works. And there was no response. And the next day she said that her husband saw the message and walked out and wanted a divorce. And I wanted to catch the next train out of Orange. I was so - I thought it was resolved because she said, It's fine. We're going to stay in our marriage and work on our marriage. But I started a correspondence with her and I did tell my husband, actually that this is what's happened,
 and what was interesting was about a year before that, I started to have a bit of an awakening of my sexuality. I found a book that had poetry written by that girl that I had fallen in love with, Um, when I was 21 so I started
 to have that awakening. But I was writing to this lady and I didn't know why I needed it to connect with this person. Why I needed to continuously take
 my phone and I was finding myself in a very, very strange place. And so we ended the communication because it was getting intense. And it was on my 14th wedding anniversary, I was sitting opposite my husband and he said to me, I'm going to tell you something that no one in our religion would ever say to another person. Number one. You don't have to be in the religion anymore if you don't want to, because he could see that I was struggling
 with obedience and he said, Number two, you don't have to be with me if you don't want. 

Rose (18 : 34)
 Wow, I love that so much. Mary (18 : 36) 

And I cried because I thought that for the first time in our marriage, I felt like he was being a friend, a real friend. It wasn't anything but a pure Let's forget about all our rules, and I thought about it and it wasn't because of
 my sexuality that I decided to leave both. It was because I needed to be true and I needed freedom. And so when I finally told him, he said, You know, if there's any man that you're with and they mistreat you I'll come and beat him up and I said it could be a woman and he went, Oh, so that was the first person that I was absolutely honest about where I said, Actually, I like women and I left the house, and that 

Mary (19 : 22) Began a Mary (19 : 23) 

Journey for me. I hadn't really been intimate with women apart from that woman at work, and so I didn't really know whether physically I would really like 

it. I don't know if that sounds weird mentally that I had a connection, but I didn't know how women had sex. I I started to watch the movies like, uh, Blue is the Warmest Colour. 

Nancy (19 : 45) 

Oh my God, that's not normal. It's not everyday sex, though, is it? Let's be honest. Did you go straight to that? 

Mary (19 : 52) 

I went with Carol - Oh, nice something tortured. I have a thing about Cate Blanchett. 

Rose (19 : 59)
 Who doesn't? That's universal mate! Mary (20 : 01) 

It is. I watched Carol and I was like, Woh, and then I just started Googling all these lesbian films and then blue is the warmest colour was very eye opening. And so 

Mary (20 : 12) I started that Mary (20 : 13) 

Pathway where I knew what I wanted. I knew my feelings, but I hadn't yet gone to that path. So I had women from my instagram account who would make connections with me, but they were mainly straight women. And then they started to get hot and steamy on the phone. And I was like, What the heck? But it was last year, just after the restrictions lifted, a beautiful young woman came to visit me. She wanted to pick my brains about interior design, and we had chemistry straight away. And that was the longest, most beautiful night I've ever spent up until that point with anyone. And I didn't realise what intimacy could be. How beautiful it could be that it didn't last five minutes. It actually had food breaks. You actually could go to the kitchen and then go back again. I mean, it was just beautiful. 

Rose (21 : 12) 

Did you also have that moment of being like I really like this? Like, Oh, yes, this is the thing that happened to me. But I like this instead of just like I'm a 

participant. Mary (21 : 21) 

That is 100% I felt because I was glowing for days. Yeah, and I thought, Damn women are fine. I love that, it was amazing. And so I've never also had a one night stand before. It was actually very much like we're just going to be together intimately this night. But, you know, we're not going to be in a relationship. It was all understood. 

Nancy (21 : 45) 

See, that's where I had the problem in the church that I was in, if you wanted to be in a relationship with someone, you had to go to the pastor and announced to him that you wanted to become official. That's what they called it going official. Um, if you were in a relationship with a man, then you were doing it with a view to marry them. And then if you broke up, you couldn't date anybody else for three months because we were all in the same church. We dated in the church, so they just wanted to make it not get too messy. So I had boyfriends in the church. But unlike the two of you, I'm a gold star. That's 

Rose (22 : 24)
 My wife too: platinum. Mary (22 : 25)
 What Does that mean? Nancy (22 : 25) 

It means I've never slept with a man. At university I had - I tried really hard to not be gay, but I just was completely unphysically attracted to men. I would just say, look, um, I'm changing my mind here, and the guy would go, Why? And I'd say, well, because Jesus says so. As soon as you say, Jesus, they're all like, sure, right? No problem. You know, um, I started to realise when I did come out, I didn't have anyone to ask what to do. So I joined this group in Newtown, and it was a coming out group for women. But I realised quite quickly that that was actually code for women who have come out and have had no experience and really need to get some. So I ended up dating three women from that group. But the first woman that I really fell for I was so nervous. It was like having my adolescence for the first time. I never felt able to have these feelings before, and suddenly there was someone 

there that I knew definitely was gay. So this was the time. So after the coming out group would finish, we would go and have coffee. And this one night we're walking back to our cars. And it was so funny because I was so nervous. And I just said to this woman, Do you want to go out sometime? And she's like, Yeah, sure, And I was okay, cool. And I said, Look, the new Star Wars movie is coming where Darth Vader dies. Like it was a big deal. So she said, Yes, I'd love to. And I was like, Okay, I went home and I was so excited. And then she came over on the weekend and we went out for dinner. And then we finally got to a session of the movie, and I was so excited and delighted that I was with this person for the first time that I
 was actually really excited about being with. I was so nervous. My hands were sweating and I just grabbed her hand and I said, Is this all right? You know, and she's like, Yeah, and then I can't remember anything else from the movie because I was so excited that I was holding her hand. Anyway, we ended up kind of fooling around. We didn't have proper like it wasn't full blown. And then I rang my friend and said, Oh, my God, I've met the girl I'm going to marry And he goes, What? And I said, Well, you know, we were together and then we kissed and we sort of touched each other and he was going, Oh, okay, that sounds strange, but all right. And then a couple of days later, I said, I haven't heard from this woman and he said, Well, you know, this is probably what we would call a one night stand. And I was like, What? We're supposed to get married now? Because in the church that I was in, if you wanted to have sex with someone, you had to marry them. So I was just like, Well, we've had sex. So that's it then, we've got to get married. 

Mary (25 : 12) 

That's amazing. Well, my one night stand, it was so important to me because up until that point I had left my marriage, left the religion. I was aware that this is what I wanted to do, but I wasn't thinking about relationships or anything like that, and I still had my wedding ring for some reason it was so hard to remove the wedding ring. But while we were being intimate, this girl said, You've still got your wedding ring on. And then with her mouth, she took it off. Symbolic. Very symbolic. I never put it back on. So there was a lot of things I lost that. 

Nancy (25 : 50) 

Hey, actually, Rose, I wanted to ask you a question, because Mary, do you have kids? Okay, so I was just wondering, Rose. So you had your wedding and all that kind of stuff. What was their reaction to you coming out? 

Rose (26 : 04)
 I didn't really come out. I just had a lady partner. You know what I mean? Nancy (26 : 07)
 Okay.
 Rose (26 : 08) 

Like, even when I told my parents I said, I want to tell you something. I've met someone. I'd love you to meet them. Um, it's a woman, and she's a chef. And they said a chef because I had been married to a chef. A 

Nancy (26 : 21) Shocking.
 Rose (26 : 22) 

What the hell? That's awesome! So no one blinked an eye in my life except one person who we're not friends anymore, sadly, but everybody else just couldn't care less. Which is quite underwhelming. I don't have a great coming out story to tell. I'm so disappointed. 

Rose (26 : 40)
 Beth Armstrong (26 : 41) 

You were mentioning earlier that your family, you felt that it wouldn't be accepted. So were you mistaken? 

Rose (26 : 43) 

Uh, it's a bit more complex in the sense that the Anglo it's not complex at al.l Their Anglo, so they only have thoughts, not feelings. So they are, like, beautifully diplomatic. They're not homophobic. They are inclusive, intellectually, 

Nancy (26 : 59) 

I think for me with my dad. So I lost my mom when I was 26, and we had a very chaotic upbringing because she was very unwell, and it really had a huge impact on the family. So I was virtually razed by my dad. So when I got involved in the church, he calls himself a recovering Catholic, and so he was actually horrified that I joined the church. He actually said to me, You know, 

I would have understood if you'd become a drug addict or like a prostitute. But why a Christian? Um, So I left the church and I came out at the same time to my dad, and I said, So, Dad, I've got something to tell you, and he's like, all right. And so I've left my church and he went bloody marvellous, you know? And he's a real ocker and surprisingly very liberal. Anyway, I said, look, there's more and I said so I've left the church because I'm gay and he was like, I'm so relieved You left that church and I was like, Did you hear what I said? Oh, I don't care if you're gay, You know, there's been gay people since Adam was a small boy, you know? And so the one thing that he said to me afterwards was, I'm really happy for you and it feels like this is the right thing for you, but I hope your life isn't sadder because of it. I hope that you find the person you're looking for. And then six months later, I presented my now wife to him. We went to stay with him up in Queensland, and he stopped my partner when she was on her way to the toilet, and he's like, you know, I just love that the two of you are together and it's just beautiful. He started crying because he had a few beers and my partner I could see she was quite desperate to go to the toilet So I just said Dad and I came out and he wept. He was so happy that I had found my person and that my life was going to be okay. And he's been such a champion for us. Interestingly, he would say things like, You know, I don't want to get buggered by someone and then he'd say, Oh, these, you know, there's so many homosexuals in the church and all that. And I said, Dad, look, you 

know I'm gay, right? And he goes, Yeah, but you're different And I said, You know my my best friend who lives in Tassie. He got thrown out of home and he lived with us for a couple of years and my dad loves him, and I said,
 You know, my best friend's gay as well and he goes, Oh, no, but he's all right and so it was quite interesting to take my partner back. Um, I grew up in a small town near Brisbane like it was very unsafe to come out there and even now, like I wouldn't have any public displays of affection because I would have got probably harassed or beaten up. It was kind of funny,
 because in Sydney, where we live now, we get a lot of people who we're the only gay people they've ever met that have kids. Us too. And so we're like the poster kids during marriage. Equality. Sometimes it would come up and 

people would go Well, you know, you're fine here, like you live happily and openly in this suburb, and no one has a problem. I said, Yeah, but what you don't realise is that every time we meet someone new, we have to come out again and we're riding on the backs of people that died, that got beaten up, that got thrown in jail. They were outed. They had their addresses printed in the newspaper. And because they did all of that, I can now live openly in a suburb outside the Newtown ghetto with my kids. So for me, part of giving back to the community was that I now need to have these conversations with people 

and educate them so that the next generations are even freeer because people understand more and they realised that it's not the big deal and all that kind of stuff. So 

Mary (30 : 43) 

The hardest for me, the hardest two people to come out to was my best friend And my mother, um, with my best friend. She was so delighted that I was leaving my husband. But then when I said that I am gay, she started to question my truth. She would say, What's happened to you? I don't understand how you become your now dressing like a man. And I was like, I'm dressing exactly the same way I've always dressed and she was questioning the feelings and emotions that I had, which was really hard to see a best friend of 26 years dismantle you in that way. 

Nancy (31 : 22)
 Do you think she felt threatened at all? Mary (31 : 25) 

No, she just was really sad because she knew that in our religion it was okay that I was leaving my husband. But if I was going to be gay, she would never see me again. And she was almost clutching at the straws. Although at one point she said, I see how happy you are, and that makes me so happy. But at the other end of the scale, she would say all this stuff about me and with my mom, she actually asked me, Darling, are you of the gay, you know, in in her accent and I said yes. And then a little while later, she said, I want you to go and get a medical check because I don't believe that you are gay. She said, I want a medical certificate. So immediately I drafted the medical certificate. I said, Dr Pandurathan has done an external and interior examination and arousal testing and certify that this person is a full lesbian. And I sent it to my mother and she went, Oh, thank you, darling. This is within 20 minutes of her asking. I don't even know how she thought that I got an appointment with the doctor. 

Rose (32 : 32)
 Or that doctors provide those sorts of certificates Mary (32 : 34) 

That I love, that you thought of that! And and then she said to me, Actually, this is an Indian doctor, go to an Australian doctor. And then that's when I realised 

she was being serious. I thought it was a joke up until this point, and I was horrified, Um, and more recently, about three months ago, she said to me, she doesn't want to know about that part of my life. I said, That's my whole life. That's me. She just calls my fiancee my friend. She does not acknowledge anything I say. It's pretty heartbreaking. I actually, at the time was living in Darlinghurst and I called her, and I really wanted to talk about my life. I wanted to talk about my fiance and she said horrible things to me, and I had to actually cut her off because it was really painful. And I've opened the line of communication again. But my sister will say, Look, don't talk about it with mum, just let it go. What she doesn't understand is that my sexuality, person I love, it's me. And if I can't talk about that, how can I be me? I'm getting emotional because I'm still going through that very difficult part of my life where I feel like I have to suppress who I am from the people I love. And even when I proposed to my girlfriend, I actually felt so sad because I thought, Who do I celebrate this with? You know, so sorry I'm getting- 

Nancy (34 : 05) 

It sounds really hard. Yeah, I think that's the thing, you know, like when I said before, every time you meet someone, you you've got to come out again and you have to deal with the reaction of everybody that you're close to. You first have to go through the horror. And it was a horror for me of coming out because it meant that everything I knew, even the God that I believed in I was going to have to walk away from. And I had a very big backlash from the people at my church. Actually, for the first few years that I was with my partner, I kept saying things to her, like, look, I don't know how long we've got together. I could get struck down at any time, But I just want you to know that I've loved the time we've had together and I don't regret a
 second, you know. So you have to be okay with yourself and accept who you are before you can then present it to other people. And in that instance, where you don't know how they're going to react or they react badly. It adds so much more depth to what you're already having to go through. You always have to deal with everybody's questions and their reactions and how they feel towards you because you aren't like them. So I kind of understand how
 you're feeling with your mum because I had a very different experience than my partner. But when we decided to have kids, her mum had this quite interesting reaction. And when she found out I was pregnant, she actually
 said to my partner, I don't know if I can love a child that's not my blood,
 but we've had some real clangers dropped from that side of the family where there's just this lack of thought or anger or just not understanding that it is completely normal for us and that it isn't different. We have the same relationships 

we have to raise our kids. We have to go shopping and do the Washing. Like, there's no difference except that we just happened to be attracted to women. That's it. 

Rose (36 : 17) 

Yeah, I really relate to that, Nancy. Especially in terms of the things that I found sad, which is that people reveal themselves to you in a way that I'd have to like them less. They've revealed a part of themselves that I'm like Oh, gross. I didn't know that was there. I don't like you anymore. It's such a grief and to be frank, that's happened mostly for me with the boomer generation. I took me about a year, I think, to learn some handy rules for myself about don't talk to them about it. Don't answer their questions. Don't hope that they'll get that they'll get it. Just 

Nancy (36 : 34) Let it go, Rose (36 : 35) 

Which has been really sad for some relationships with my family and one very close friend. But in terms of the kids and the way people can assume that our lives are quite different just what you were talking about before the thing I find its most weird is that people sexualise it so much so - 

Nancy (36 : 51) Straight off that bat. Rose (36 : 53)
 This is a sexual topic. Rose (36 : 54) 

It's not a sexual topic anymore than your relationship is a sexual topic. It's such a reductive - dismissive - simple and lazy way to explain a relationship and a connection. And so that's the thing I find really weird. 

Nancy (37 : 09) 

I've had two conversations in the last couple of days, one with a neighbour up the street. We didn't know each other particularly well, but I was just talking a bit about, you know, how I met my partner and all that sort of stuff and she actually said to me, How do you know that you're gay if you've never 

slept with a man? And I was like, Well, how do you know you're not gay? Have you ever slept with a woman like you would never hear a conversation like that in the heterosexual world, whereas with us I have had so many people. Luckily, I'm very open to discussing things. But the way we have to explain things, I've had people say to me, God, how did you feel about sleeping with a man to have your children? It's like, Well, we did IVF. 

Rose (37 : 55) 

It's like you're family is public property. Reminds me of when I was pregnant. Pregnancy is public property. People are going to touch it. They're going to tell you their opinions about it. And it feels the same, that because it's a less common family structure that people are entitled to have their curiosities and put them to me. I used to work in equity and inclusion, so I used to be like, Yeah, I'm going to walk the talk and educate. And now I mostly don't unless they're young people. You know who you can be like, Yeah, this works great. This is fab. If this is where you're headed, it's brilliant. Let me talk you through or we're here for you or whatever. But most of the time, especially with our school community, I mostly don't feel like it's a great opportunity 

for education. I feel more like if you're not sure how lesbian couples have babies, you can google that. And also I don't know if you guys have had this, but they're like women who kind of fetishise the whole situation because maybe they're not steady exactly in their hetero marriage. 

Mary (38 : 52) 

Oh, yeah, That's why I had to go online dating even though I'd come out. I was not taking that step to actually meet anyone because I didn't want to necessarily meet someone. But it was these straight women confusing me with their affection or their curiosity, or, but I thought, you know what I'm doing online dating, and that was a whole different story. But my first dating app was the pink sofa. 

Rose (39 : 18) 

For me it's more like married heteros and the wives are like, but is it really good? Uh, you know, maybe like yes, wives are superior to husbands I've tested both models. It's more there's like - 

Nancy (39 : 30) 

You feel like you're being prodded and poked - definitely - you might have had this situation too, having had kids. At our school we have a trivia night every year, and we had to go dress fifties style, right? So I got us these huge beehives 

and we dressed up. And as the night loosened up, my partner and I were dancing on the dance floor, and within 10 minutes I had two of the father's swing me away from my partner and say, I'm going to turn you tonight. And I was like, this is my wife. Like in no other situation would you say this to somebody else's wife? And you know, there's always this sort of situation. If we go to someone's house - I know what you're gonna say. Traditonally, the blokes go to the barbe- 

Rose (40 : 16)
 And which one is? Nancy (40 : 18)
 Which way do you go? Rose (40 : 19) 

People always a assume my partner will go to the barbecue with the dudes, and I will go in the kitchen and bitch about husbands with the women. Yeah, yeah. So we often don't feel like we fit. 

Nancy (40 : 29) 

We, one time we went to this it was like a soccer team break up and all the guys were standing out and I was like, actually, I want to go talk to them, but I'll stay here because my partner is quite shy. So all the mums started talking about Magic Mike. Oh, 

Rose (40 : 44) 

Yeah, so awkward, because you're like, I'm not into that. 

Nancy (40 : 47) 

Yeah, They said to me, You've seen it. I'm like, Well, no, because I'm gay and they're like, But it's such a great 

Rose (40 : 54) Movie.
 Nancy (40 : 55) 

Both of us are just sitting there. And then we had another situation where one of our neighbours, this is when 50 shades of grey came out she was talking 

about oh my god, this is a great book and she goes, Oh, look, I'm going to lend it to you because, you know, it's such a great read. And I'm like, But you know, I'm gay, right? And she's going, Yeah, but it's such a great book like let me lend it to you. And I said, No, you're not understanding. I don't want to read about this dysfunctional relationship 

Rose (41 : 22) 

With quite vanilla sex. Let's be honest, you're pitching that to the queer community. ho hum. 

Nancy (41 : 25) 

But she got that. But then Why don't I lend it to your partner? I just went, Okay. I took the book home. Hey, our neighbour thinks that you would enjoy reading this. Yeah, There's always this sort of awkwardness, I guess, because once people get on the line of how did you come out? And it's taken over entire parties. Yeah. Suddenly everyone's goes silent and wants to hear all the details of how you got together and how you met and all that. 

Rose (41 : 55) 

Like you're in a zoo, right? Yes. We're genuinely not a spectacle. We're just normal folks doing normal stuff. And we're just lucky enough to have partners we just bloody adore. So I get that spectacle, particularly in the sort of life that I lead, very heteronormative community around me. I know that being in love and liking your partner is a spectacle. But I really don't like that sort 

of, Um Well, tell us all about it. It's weird, but I do want to ask you both something. Did you notice? Having been straight presenting for a time and then being queer, presenting in terms of how you live? Did you notice a loss of heteronormative privilege? Because I did so much like access to literature that reflected the sorts of things that were happening in my life. Connecting with the school moms combo, which is largely I hate my husband, aren't husbands crap, which I couldn't connect with any more talking about, even with my very closest friends. Just feeling distance just yeah, that's all this stuff we don't have in common anymore. Um, even like going to a GP, you know, all these little tiny losses that I had. 

Beth Armstrong (43 : 08)
 So how did that change with your GP? Rose (43 : 10) 

Oh, like when you have a same sex partner, they ask you all sorts of weird stuff like, Are you pregnant and then, like, Are you sure? 

Nancy (43 : 18)
 Because that's miraculous. Deeply sure. Mary (43 : 20) 

It feels like for me, I've experienced it where there is no acknowledgement in a public space that I am with my partner. For example, I decided to spice
 up my life and leave Sydney and moved to a country town. So I live in regional New South Wales, and we were standing in line for vaccinations just a couple of days ago, and, you know, when a man and woman stand 

together, it's assumed that they are husband and wife. I'm standing with my partner and it's just the single friends. So when it comes to that part of the line where you're having to give your information we're separated. It's not intentional, but it's something that is going to be missing because it's not what I had problems with my husband. 

Rose (44 : 08) 

Yeah, it's the same with them when you're filling out forms for parents. 

Nancy (44 : 10) 

Yeah. 

Rose (44 : 11) 

Mother, father and we have three parents in our family, but even just be able to fill in a form without having to explain to a receptionist, 

Nancy (44 : 19) 

And you always get them going. Oh, sorry, I just assumed. And you're like, Well, you shouldn't You 

Rose (44 : 24) Shouldn't assume Nancy (44 : 25) 

The one thing that I find where we are. We've got no other couples that are in our situation. So if we do have a sighting of another lesbian, Oh, my God, 

Rose (44 : 36)
 Us as well, us as well, Nancy (44 : 37) 

Yes, that's it. Like we had a couple one day. This never happens, two girls walking down our street hand in hand, and we were in the car. My partner saw them at the exact same moment as me. And she goes, Don't pull over and I was like, I have to find out where they're from. We pulled up next to them and I went, Hi. Um, I just wanted to say hi. And this is my partner. Can I ask, You know, what are you up to at the moment? And they said, Oh, we've just been to have a look at a house in this street. I'm like, it's a great street. You would love it here. So friendly. Um, And then another time, I was in a coffee shop, These two girls just really affectionate with each other. And I walked in with a friend of mine and both of us just went, Oh, my God. 

And I went up, I'm so glad to see you guys. Thank you for being there like, Oh, my God. Are you guys together? And I said No, my wife is not here, but but she has a wife too like, you know? So it was just this moment of, like, understanding. 

Beth Armstrong (45 : 38) 

And that concludes, part one. We'll be publishing part two shortly. Thank you for listening. And thank you to these extraordinary women for sharing their stories. If this episode has brought up distressing feelings and you need help, please call Lifeline on 13. Double one, Double four or beyond Blue on 1300 Double 24636. Sound production by unison with Thanks to Luke Mynott, Tom Herdman and Cihan Siral. Music by Biddy Connor and I'm Beth Armstrong. For more episodes, go to curveball media dot com dot au. Thanks for listening. Please review us on your preferred platform as it helps us reach more listeners. 

Gglot (46 : 18) Transcribed by Gglot.com