Later Life Lesbians - Part 2

Part Two (We recommend listening to Part One first) 
The conversation continues. Guided by the host, Beth Armstrong, three bold, funny and wise women speak together anonymously to share their stories of coming out later in life and how it has affected their lives. 

You’re married or partnered, maybe have children, a career and your identity is heterosexual, but then you’re single again and unexpectedly you fall in love with a woman. How does that work? 

Some topics included in this discussion may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Topics include: 

•  marriage equality
•  coming out
• lesbian culture / Mardi Gras
• The pink sofa / lesbian clubs
• online dating / u-hauling
• family reactions 
• discrimination / bi-phobia
• generational change
• children of gay parents coming out as straight or otherwise
• identity within gay community/pansexual 
• pronouns/categories  
• step-family dynamics/blended families
• gold star lesbians 
• patriarchy impact on marriage/domestics comparative to same-sex 
• The tragedy of Heterosexuality - book 
• pressures of representing a community 
• sharing breastfeeding
• the complexity of breadwinner/mother dynamics
• who gets pregnant, and bonding with both mothers
• post natal depression 
• Finding community/ allies
• religion 
• toaster oven concept
• male/female gaze 

Share women's wisdom worldwide  -  for everyone. 

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We appreciate your feedback and suggestions.
Contact Beth at:  beth@curveballmedia.com.au

Sound production: Unison Sound.
Producer: Luke Mynott, Beth Armstrong
Host: Beth Armstrong
Editor: Tom Herdman, Mija Healey.
Sound Engineer: Micayla Laurence, Cihan Siral.
Composer: Biddy Connor
Artwork: wisebrownfox

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Transcript

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Beth Armstrong (00 : 00) 

Warning. This episode includes a discussion that some may find triggering or distressing. If you need support, please contact Beyond Blue on 1300 Double 24636 or Lifeline on 13 Double 114 Hi, Welcome to Curveball, the club you didn't want to be part of. I'm Beth Armstrong. Sometimes in life, something comes out of left field and we're knocked sideways. Be it, cancer, miscarriage or divorce. How do we change for the better or worse by these experiences and how do we manage? This is a late-night , no holds barred black comedy discussion between three women speaking anonymously, strangers who just happened to be members of the same club. Usually, we record episodes with everyone together in a sound studio. 

Rose (00 : 49) Occasionally
 Beth Armstrong (00 : 50) 

Due to restrictions or distance, we need to record remotely. As such, you may notice small variations in sound quality. Welcome to part two of our conversation. 

Nancy (01 : 01) 

It was just this moment of like understanding, and during marriage equality, I felt like I was on a distant planet to everybody else around me. Like I actually said to everyone. When your postal votes come, I will deliver them to the post box for you because I need you to take this seriously. And it was interesting because at the time people were like starting to feel a bit left out because they were like, You're making such a big deal of this. And whenever I had, like, I had my 50th birthday at a friend's house and it was weird. It was like, I don't know if you've seen that episode of the L-word where 

Tina's with the bloke and then his friends there and her lesbian friends are there and it's all very awkward and no one knows who anyone is and you know, they play that game and they've got the thing on their head and they've got to guess who they are. And all of the straight people knew the sports stars and all that. And then all the gay people knew who Bette and Tina were, and you know what I mean? It was 

Rose (02 : 02) 

Cultural references are completely different, aren't they? And then we have another 

layer because my partner's Italian. So, of course, all the things that are relevant in LGBTIQ plus community in Australia are then completely different to what she grew up with. and what it means. We go back there and when you're talking about seeing other couples, not south, I was thinking about Italy, in the north. We always try and be very demonstrative because that's what she needed when she was younger. So we try and be like making out all the time, holding hands all the time because you know, there's young people right. In the South that is a hard no, we're definitely sisters there. So whenever we see any same-sex couples down in the South, that is so good. 

Nancy (02 : 46) 

That's the interesting thing I found during the marriage equality thing, too. Is that other women that I was talking to when I had this 50th birthday, like there's this understanding that comes with being gay. I found when I'm with other gay people, I'm so much more relaxed because they understand my world, and I have had my heterosexual friends, and I have very dear friends like my person whose house I'm in right now is a good parent to my kids, you know? And - But she said to me one day, she said, look, I feel like, especially during marriage equality, she said. I feel like I don't understand you. And I feel like I'm being blamed because I don't understand you. And I said, Well, that's not it at all. And it was the first time that I realised that people actually were feeling left out because they didn't understand that it was our time and they couldn't understand what the big deal was and all that kind of stuff. And- 

Rose (03 : 40) 

I got no space for that. If you don't understand that oppressed group's argument, you shut the fuck up. That is not your pain. Oh, boo hoo! Privilege straights. What, are sad because they don't understand why oppressed groups are mad, for fuck's sake. You know you feel left out, Jesus for real. Everyone's left out. Except you. 

Nancy (04 : 02) 

Yeah, You know, I was having a coffee on my own at this coffee shop one day, and one of the dads from school came up to me and we're mates, like, you know, our kids have been through nippers and soccer and, you know, so we know each other pretty well. And he said, Oh, you've had a pretty big week, haven't you? And I said, Yeah, you know, we got the Yes and, and he said, Yeah, I suppose it's good. And I was like, Okay, he said, Look, I just don't understand why they have to call it marriage. And I said, Well, what's your 

problem with the word marriage? He goes, Well, it's just, you know, that's sort of word is for heterosexual people, you know? And I said, Well, what if we called it garage and he goes, that would be better. And I said listen dude, you and I have always got on really well. This is something you don't agree with, but it probably makes no difference to you in your life. But it makes a huge amount of difference for me that this is the world we've now got. So let's just let this go, be kind to each other and just be mates. And he went okay. And so you're constantly on your guard, like even in this area holding hands with my partner. I'm very aware of other people's reactions because people do double-take and my appearance didn't change that much. Um, one thing I did notice the set. You guys might have found this because you do. It's not obvious - 

Rose (05 : 17)
 I'm femme presenting. Yeah, for sure. Nancy (05 : 18) 

When I came out 16 years ago, there was still this understanding in the community where, like so we didn't have. There's no dedicated club in Sydney for women, so they have these nights called Bitch and Moist and girls on
 top. But the friends that I went there with who were feminine complained to me because they said, Look, people just assume that we're straight because we don't have short hair and we're not in Doc Martens. Noone hits on us because we don't look gay. And so it was a really interesting thing because I was only out on the scene for about six months. Dating on the pink sofa was the other thing because I didn't know anything about dating and one girl.
 She lied about her age. And so when I met her, she was clearly not 35. She was in her mid-fifties , and as soon as I saw her I said, Are you 35? And she said, Look, I actually didn't put my real age. I feel extremely lucky that I met my partner the way I did. There's only a very small pool to choose from, and we call it the lesbian web of death because you pretty much can connect yourself to any other lesbian by about five people 

Mary (06 : 28) 

I have. I have to tell you my experience with dating because it was a short period of time, but very intense and very funny. So the pink sofa, the first person I meet, I end up so sorry about it. But I ended up having to ghost her because so I started to talk and I gave her my number. And she said to me, Do you want to meet? She mentioned a name and I thought, Oh, that's nice. Yes, sure, someone obviously very important to her. And she sent me about 

four photos of her toy rabbit. And I'm not even talking about a sex toy. I'm talking about a stuffed rabbit and this is my rabbit eating breakfast. This is my rabbit on the train with me, and my response was, I have so many questions, but he really wanted to meet up, and I was afraid. I'm like, Oh
 my God! So that was my first experience. And then I thought the Pink Sofa's not working for me because, like you said, it's just such a small pool. Really? And then I decided to go on. Zoe. Uh, and on Zoe I met this woman and she immediately said Yes, let's meet tonight. So we did, and we had a lovely dinner, but there wasn't any chemistry. But we were sitting there and she said to me, I can tell you are new as this . I said, how do you know? She goes, um, your nails and you're not coming close to me at all. My nails, cut your nails. I didn't even think of that. 

Mary (08 : 00) 

Beth, do we need to explain? I actually had this same thing happen the other day because I was at my friend's house. Anyway, I was sitting at the table and I said, Oh, man, my nails are getting too long. I'm just going to cut them. And I said, Yeah, it's a bit awkward, you know, to have long nails. And he goes, Why? And I said, Well, because you know, I'm gay, right? And he just had this light bulb moment and went, Oh, my 

Rose (08 : 21) 

God, What? Not hurt each other. That's why you've got short nails. I've got it. I got it. I felt very stupid. 

Mary (08 : 26) 

This is the lesbian 101 . I had no idea. And then I learned, for this lady
 said, Hey, forget about this app. Go on Her. So I went on the Her app and I met this woman who also lied about her age. You know, she was about 10 years older and very quickly, like I'm saying, in a span of three days, she said that I was her twin flame and she started calling me her woman. And, you know, you've heard of the U-haul lesbian. She was definitely U-hauling you calling me into this forever happy. We're going to get married in five days. And it freaked me out. So I thought, No, that is not working for me. And then it was I met my fiance and I said to her, Come over to my place and she said to me, You can't just invite strangers that you meet online to your house without spending some time to actually talk to them first . I didn't have that fear. So she, in true lesbian fashion, drove five hours. 

Nancy (09 : 28)
 So committed
 Rose (09 : 29)
 What a great lesbian. Mary (09 : 30) 

When she turned up, she actually what was confronting for me was I am femme and I love fashion, and I've always been attracted to femme women and she's femme, but she wore high vis in a ute. 

Nancy (09 : 47)
 I'm in. Yes, please. Mary (09 : 50) 

Her profile was basically like, if you don't like spiders and you don't like dogs and you're not leftie, you're not going to like me. So she was the militant lesbian that we read about, the environmentalist. the I'll punch you in the face if you- And so I was really like, Oh, my God, I am a little bit scared, But 

Nancy (10 : 10)
 She clearly won you over Mary (10 : 13) 

That the first time she came and she drove away and I thought, Oh, that's nice. And then within 20 minutes, I was like, Oh, my God, it hit me that this woman was going to change my life forever. 

Rose (10 : 26) 

I knew as well when I met my wife. She was the chef at the place where we met, and I had asked whether the kitchen was closed already and she came out to thank me because my husband had been a chef. So I knew that it was kind of rude to go somewhere late on a Sunday, and expect the kitchen was open. So she came out to talk, So we spoke a bit. We did definitely flirt a bit that night. And then my best friend and I left and walking down the street. I just stopped. And in that moment, something spoke to me and said, You 

have to go back in right now and tell her you want to see her again. And I did, uh, that's awesome. Yeah, it was amazing. Did she have a big smile on her face when you walked back in? Yeah, she was very happy that I had come back in and I asked her to call me, but I forgot to give her my number like an idiot. And she was like, You'll need to give me your number. We met the next day and she texted me just before we were supposed to meet. She's like, you don't know my name. I didn't know anything about - I hadn't done any of the things, but I didn't care. 

Nancy (11 : 21) 

That's funny. My partner was the same, like I had this awkward situation. So in the six months that I was out on the scene, I met this girl at the coming out group who I was totally in love with, and she didn't want to be with me in a relationship but didn't want me to be with anyone else. Kind of enjoyed the attention and it became very awkward. And so when I was dating, I remember one night I would spend weekends at her place, and we were always in bed being a couple in every other way except actually being a couple. And I went out on a date one night from her house and then after the date, went back to her house and we talked about it, you know, and I stayed the night. And so when I met my wife now, this friend was still around, but she was very inappropriate. And she would always say things that you would only know about a partner. And I don't know if it's a female trait, but sometimes you have to deal with behaviours that might not happen in a heterosexual couple, because you are so close. You're women, you both have an understanding of the same things. And like now I love being gay. You know, I'm so happy with myself, and I love my partner and most of the women I meet are like trying to push their men away. Don't want to have sex with them. Yeah, yeah, and and they're surprised that we like each other, Yes, and that we're still attracted to each other. And the other thing that I was thinking when you were talking before too is that when I came out on the scene, there was some very old movies like Desert Hearts and, you know, and the L-word had only just come out. So that was the first time that lesbians were portrayed as being other than Butch Dyke lesbians with flannel shirts and glasses and very short hair and quite ample. So now I've realised that there's lesbians being portrayed everywhere. Movies, television shows. 

Um, even there is a whole genre now of young pop stars singing about their relationships and making videos of them with their female partners. And I was so excited because finally, for me, there was nothing like where I grew up in this small town. I didn't know any other gay people in the town that were out. There was nobody visible. And now young people. My friend's daughter is 10 and came out to her mum the other day, and I was like, Oh my 

God, I couldn't have imagined doing that. Mary (13 : 49) 

I feel very lucky to be coming out right now. Gosh, it is so much easier than it would have been 15, 20 years ago. 

Rose (13 : 58) 

Sometimes I think to myself if someone had whispered in my ear that day on the school over and said, You'll be okay and you can have a family anyway, you can have babies because I knew I wanted to be a mum, I wonder if someone had said you can do what's right for you, and you'll still have the things you want. I just wonder whether I would have saved myself a lot of pain. 

Mary (14 : 19) 

And even living in Darlinghurst in Sydney. Sydney is a pretty gay-friendly city. In Darlinghurst it was unique to be straight. Yeah, and going to the Mardi Gras for the first time, I felt whoa like that was - you found your people. Yeah, well, and it felt so right. That was last year. That was my first Mardi Gras. Really? 

Rose (14 : 41) 

Love to share this with you guys to see what you think, because I have never had that moment. And I still sometimes through this conversation and I still feel like I don't belong in any of these camps because I had a husband. My family. 

Nancy (14 : 55) 

Can I tell you that you do? I had a conversation with someone recently who was this woman I'm friends with at the coffee shop. Uh, there was a transsexual lady now who lives in our area, but she doesn't pass very easily. You know, you can tell that she's transwomen and anyway, she just kind of sidled up to me and she said, You know, what do you call someone like that? And I said, Well, you call her what she obviously identifies as you say, She she's a woman and she was like, But how do you know what to say? And I said, Well, don't make it a big deal. You know, it's like- 

Rose (15 : 33) 

Not very complicated. That person's a woman. Nancy (15 : 35) 

That's it. Anyway, we started talking about other things and I said, Look, people seem to really need to put labels on everything, and I've got a friend very similar to your situation that before she met her female partner, she was engaged to be married to a man, and then she came out and she didn't identify as being a lesbian because she felt that she fell in love with this person. And it didn't necessarily mean that she was gay or straight. Just she fell in love with this person. It doesn't matter how you identify it matters to you that you're happy and that you're in your space. But there are people out there exactly 

Rose (16 : 13) 

Just hard to find them. When you two were both talking about when you're with gay people, they just get it. I don't have that space. I have that with mums. You know that mum thing. But I don't have it in terms of my sexuality or my lifestyle. I don't know anybody else. 

Nancy (16 : 30) Do you want it? Rose (16 : 31) 

At the beginning, I really did. Yeah, I really wanted to talk to someone who understood stepfamily dynamics and same sex relationship dynamics and how all that works together. 

Nancy (16 : 43) 

One thing that I really learned about being gay is that there is so many colours. What's 

Rose (16 : 47) 

Going to happen is a movement away from labels. And actually maybe to more that pan. But yeah, be yourself and have sex with and love whomever you feel like 

Nancy (16 : 55) 

You know, my son. When he was about seven, he came out to us and said Mom. 

Mama, I think I'm straight. Our kids too. I know right. I said, We'll love you anyway son, it's fine you know, anyway. But what I found with my kids is my oldest son is a real alpha male, and he has always been very comfortable with himself and has never needed us to explain too much. He had his own story about us, you know, that he would tell people, and we always encouraged them both to put it in their own words, who we were and manage themselves. And we help them out if they needed it. Anyway, I remember my son came home, and he had a project, and it was your neighbourhood and your life. And the blurb that he wrote was hi, I live with my brother and my two mums, and they're not evil. They're just gay. And my mom's got an iPhone seven, you know? And so that was his take on it. Right? Um, and when gaby baby came out, I said to him, Do you want to see it? And he goes, I don't need to see it. I'm living it. You know. 

Mary (17 : 56) 

I don't know if you ladies have experienced this, but one thing I'm grateful for is the fact that I didn't have to experience lesbians telling me that I'm not, Actually, unless a les- I've heard this is what happens that if you're coming out late and you've been with men, that you're not an actual lesbian. 

Nancy (18 : 16)
 Oh, the bisexual thing, the Mary (18 : 18) 

Bisexual thing. Yeah, the alphabet mafia. There is these expectations that we are labelled. So, Rose, you know, that would be a problem for both of us. Yeah. were to try and immerse ourselves in amongst the group. We would see this polarised. 

Nancy (18 : 37) 

You're not gold star. 

Rose (18 : 38) 

Yeah, it's not necessarily an inclusive culture, which the irony of that really gets to me. 

Nancy (18 : 42)
 Yeah, there's some women that won't date women who are bisexual. 

Rose (18 : 46) 

There's a lot of biphobia. Yeah, and I wouldn't call myself bi because I don't like the term. I much prefer Pan or queer. 

Nancy (18 : 54) 

Well, I like the idea that you don't have to. I know at the moment there's this real strong culture of people having to decide which category they fall in, and you know which pronouns and all that kind of stuff. People are so concerned about pronouns and whether you're pure and this is how you are. And this is where you fit like I know plenty of women in your situation that have had children before they've met their female partner. You know, they've had husbands, and there's always this kind of where do you fit? But I don't understand why people have to fit anywhere. Who you're with is who you love. 

Rose (19 : 30) 

That's my lived experience. But I do know that my partner and through others experiences that those labels are critical to some people because they are connected closely to be able to state who you are with pride. I like that they're there for folks for whom they make sense and they resonate. It's just that there isn't really one for me right now. Probably if there was one that really landed with me. I'd love it and wear a T shirt with it. I'm I'm so proud of my life. Lucky and I definitely wouldn't date a dude again under any circumstance. 

Beth Armstrong (20 : 06)
 I wanted to ask you about it because I think I'm divorced and I'm straight Rose (20 : 09)
 Our condolences. I'm so sorry. Our thoughts are with you at this difficult time. Nancy (20 : 13)
 We love you anyway, Beth
 Rose (20 : 14)
 Beth (20 : 14) 

Beth Armstrong (20 : 17) 

But I totally relate to the thing that you're talking about women connecting through the difficulties of their husbands or complaining about that lot at home. You know, we're in a patriarchal society, and we're in a society where women really have only very recently got economic freedom and part of the problem. I think for straight women, when they have children, then their lives are suddenly back in the home, largely responsible for the child rearing and caring and domestics and also trying to do the full-time job and have the career and be independent and know who they are. And they're just completely burned out. And this is where I have felt envy. I have thought how great it would be to be in a relationship with a woman where those patriarchal norms don't exist. So then you can say so who's doing what as opposed to what's 

Rose (21 : 04) 

Expected. That is my favourite difference. The patriarchy is not in my bed. It's not in my kitchen. It's not at school pickup, and I lived that life and thought I was like a raging feminist back then, but did all the laundry because I was at home right, So why not - had to fall to someone. That's right. That is for me, the biggest blessing all of it's a negotiation because there aren't any assumptions underneath it. It's beautiful not to have that bullshit. And my firm belief is that it's not about me and my husband. That is a societal piece. It wasn't our responsibility that that was in our relationship, and that is a bloody, complex thing to negotiate, and I don't have to do that anymore. And it's so good. Yeah, I think it's 

Beth Armstrong (21 : 49) 

That sense of not having the patriarchy dominating not only your husband, but also your own script, because it's the script that you saw your mother and father live, and there's a part of you wanting so much more. But it just is overwhelmingly coming at you. And if you've got two women in the household, it's just not there in the same way. I think straight people are truly envious of that. 

Rose (22 : 12) 

Have you read The tragedy of heterosexuality is just an examination of exactly that. The queer community, for the most part, have fulfilling relationships where they like the people they're attracted to. Straight culture is, men are stupid and useless, and women find that irritating. But charming is 

a much more intellectual examination of that heterosexual culture means people, particularly women, are missing out on being valued and adored and enjoyed the way women who love women value and enjoy and love the women that they love. 

Nancy (22 : 45)
 That's not to say though there is, we still have dysfunction, and Beth Armstrong (22 : 49)
 Obviously, homosexual relationships fail as well.
 Nancy (22 : 52) 

I had this conversation with my partner the other day. We realised that when our relationships do fail because we've got marriage equality now and it was such a big deal, if one of our relationships fails, it's like a failure for the entire gay community. Like because we've worked so hard for this, How could we let down the side? I don't feel 

Rose (23 : 13) 

Like that because I was in a marriage that failed really badly, And so I think that is less about. Do we have to now represent for the community and be
 in love forever? How about it was great if it was great, and if it ended and it should have fan-bloody-tastic, let's only be connected and committed to people when it's right for us. So for me, the biggest success of my life is 

the end of my first marriage. Let's get real and shake off those old notions of what that is and why they came about. It's interesting you should say 

Beth Armstrong (23 : 43) 

That because I saw on Instagram the other day this woman just had post saying, I am no longer going to identify as divorced. Why does a failed relationship preface who I am? She said, No, I'm just single at this idea that a relationship should be forever. Like that thing where you say this person has been married for 50 years in the sense that is a celebration 

Rose (24 : 03) 

Could have been the worst 50 years ever. Longevity is surely not the measure, and that's how I approach this marriage I have 

Nancy (24 : 10) 

Now, and it's a settlement. Sometimes I just don't know we've been together this long. We might as well keep going, Resigned 

Rose (24 : 16) 

To it? No thanks. I don't want 50 years of that. I want to want the thing I've got every day. And I wanted to be right for me and my partner. If it isn't, that's okay for me too. 

Nancy (24 : 25) 

I still 16 years in, still look at my partner and get a physical reaction. You know, like I look at her and she's beautiful and that's interesting, because when I talk about my partner, a lot of the straight women, that I'm sitting with her like, Wow, that's really nice. Yeah, 

Rose (24 : 43) 

Like it's bizarre that you would like your partner and continue to be attractive. Yeah, yeah, it's just heartbreaking. 

Nancy (24 : 50) 

After babies, here's the straight women there, like after their babies. My husband's coming at me and I just find that really upsetting, because I think I mean, we obviously we both had a child each my partner, and I, which is really convenient. Can I tell you? Did you both breastfeed? Yes, we 

Rose (25 : 09)
 Di. Two breastfeeders at once. Honest to
 Nancy (25 : 12)
 God. No, no, no. We didn't breastfeed each other's children. Friends Rose (25 : 15) 

Of ours did! They each carried one baby 1.5 years apart. And then there were two Breastfeeders available, so everybody was breastfed . But there was eight hours sleep for everybody as well. I was like the lesbians have nailed it. 

Nancy (25 : 28) 

Didn't have that, but my friends did. Their Children were five months apart so they could breastfeed for each other. Um, I guess the other thing that was really nice is that my partner and we had our first son. She was concerned about how she would connect to him because she didn't give birth to him and also because she was the breadwinner. So I was at home with both kids. So in some ways, that male-female dichotomy is very difficult for the breadwinning female. If both women have a career who gives up their career, there's always this tug that does make it harder to be gay was that both women have this connection and want to mother and be available and see everything you know. I know so many gay women that have had the same experience where the person that's a breadwinner feels like they're missing out on the mothering part. This 

Mary (26 : 24) 

Is very interesting for me to hear, because when I was married, I wanted to be a mum so badly, and I wasn't pushing myself careerwise because I'm a lawyer. So I thought, you know, I want to be a mum and I would buy all the Montessori books and then my husband finally said, I don't want to have kids and this is like eight years into our marriage and it really broke my heart and I thought, Well, if it's going to make you so unhappy, then, okay. And the moment I did that, I felt I had to shift my entire identity. I became very focused in my career, and I felt also like I lost something of myself. And so now with my partner, she wants Children really badly, and I'm excited that that's a possibility for us. But she wants me to experience it. She wants me to carry. And I said, I can't because why? So I can't because I had to delete that from myself, you know, um and I'm 41 so I'm afraid of so many things. But I felt like, Is that possible? Can I go back into this feeling of being a mum? And in our relationship, I am the breadwinner. So I am in this sort of crossroads where I want to have children so badly. But I don't want to carry because I felt like I let that go. Nancy, how old were you when you had your child? 

Nancy (27 : 46) 

My partner started talking about having kids like about 18 months in, and because I had never thought about having kids, I was quite indifferent, I thought, If it happens great if it doesn't doesn't bother me either. So I said, Look, it's too soon for me. Let's go do an overseas trip because that really fast-tracked your relationship being together 24 7. So we went and did a four-month 

trip, and we did all the things that we wanted to do that we wouldn't have been able to do easily with kids. And then we came home and I said, All right, I'm ready to get going And my partner had already started the process of IVF and made some embryos but decided that it would be better for me to go first because I hadn't thought about kids. But I was always interested in what it would be like to be pregnant, but then I actually got quite bad post-Natal depression. The decision for us to have our second child was really hard for me because I was hospitalised and I had to have ECT . And so I was really scared, actually rang my dad and said, Look, Dad, this is where I'm at. What do you reckon? He said, Look, you can't say no if your partner wants to have another child. You have to say yes. It could ruin the relationship if you don't and regrets and all that kind of stuff. So I went okay. My partner then had to be pregnant because I was such a risk. It was interesting because I know that when she watched me breastfeed , she saw that connection and wanted it and the fact that we both had it. I think it's been lovely for her to understand what it was like. Um, but the one thing that I would say is that you need to decide how you're going to involve the donor in your story because we had a known donor. We run into some problems which ended up in a court situation in law, In a heterosexual IVF situation, the donor has no rights in a same sex relationship where there's a donor. If that donor decides he wants to be involved, he can take you to court and back When we had our situation happen, the assumption was that we were already co parenting by the mere fact that we used a known donor, which was not the case at all. We were a couple that wanted to have kids and we needed sperm. And we did want someone we knew because it was important to us that they could see who this person was and know who they were. And that wasn't a question mark, but it opened up another can of worms. So a lot of our friends have decided to go with an unknown donor, which again has its problems. But for you, it's not only who's going to carry the baby, there's so many other questions, and this is what I find really frustrating with my straight friends is that they can go Oops, we're pregnant, whereas for us it's a huge decision. It's costly. And then you've got to go through all of the upset of how do you manage that in your life? And then when we had the marriage equality thing to all of this talk about how can same-sex couples offer the same thing as a straight couple can to their children, like children, need both men and women involved as parents, And 

so you're at the beginning of a very interesting journey. Mary (30 : 57)
 Absolutely. 

Rose (30 : 59) 

My thoughts briefly, just about who the baby grows in. So none of our children grew in my partner, but they were doing our school project, and the little one said I was made for Mummy and Daddy. Mummy grew me in her tummy, and Marty grew me in her heart. And it's true. And there's just this beautiful place in their life that only she can occupy that I sometimes I'm envious of. And she's got this beautiful, pure choice to be connected to them and to parent them because she wants to, and in our wedding that we did for them. She made vows to them, and I know it's probably only me that gets to see this outstanding connection. So my position is firmly who gives a shit whose body it comes out of 

Nancy (31 : 50) Exactly it doesn't Rose (31 : 51) 

Matter. What matters is who's loving that baby and why. Who keeps their commitments to that child. That's a parent. It's love that makes a family. It's love that makes a parent. 

Nancy (32 : 03) 

Mary, can I ask you, is your issue that you feel like your partner wants this for you? And you're not quite on the same page? Would it bother you to let her carry the child? Would 

Mary (32 : 16) 

I actually feel like he wants children so badly, but she doesn't want to carry that. She's afraid of it. And she feels like she wants that shared between the both of us that we both have that experience. And I guess for me, I just had this assumption that I wouldn't be the one because I was older. And so, um, I think that to be a mum like to actually carry I probably had a yearning much more than she does. But she loves children. She wants to have a family. She's actually seven years younger, so we are at different places in our life, you know, the body and where we are mentally. So it's so early at this stage. 

Nancy (32 : 56) 

I think Rose has a very important point and that it sounds to me like your partner 

isn't keen on getting pregnant. But perhaps the language should be around that, you know, this is just where they start. But you've then got a lifetime of what happens next. You know? So and I had the opportunity. So my partner cut the cord of my son. I got to cut the cord of her biological son, but I got to hold our second boy, and I felt so immediately connected, even though I didn't give birth to him. He was mine from the minute he came out, and I spent an hour just staring at him, holding him while we waited for my partner to come out of recovery. And I've always felt exactly the same way. And my partner has said the same thing as soon as that baby comes out, he was hers. You know, I wanted to say 

Beth Armstrong (33 : 51) 

A friend of mine has joined your club, and, um, she's very 

Rose (33 : 56) 

New to the scene, 

Beth Armstrong (33 : 57) 

And it is difficult when you've lived a whole life because she's, you know, midlife to feel like, oh, do you put a flag? 

Rose (34 : 05)
 Exactly how rainbow are you?
 Nancy (34 : 08)
 As rainbow as you feel? So what's
 Beth Armstrong (34 : 12)
 Your advice? What's your top tips to women that are joining your club? Rose (34 : 16) 

If it's blended families with same sex relationships as the new aspect, call me because I really want to chat. It's hard to find us and there's a lot to navigate in the beginning. So, yeah, that would be my top tip. Find someone and I'm here for it. 

Nancy (34 : 34) 

Just on what you were saying there on the Pink Sofa, you used to be able to 

state whether you want a friendship or an open relationship or single or whatever. There would be women on that sofa that would be able to fill that conversation point. Yeah, I would direct people towards something like the pink sofa is great because it's just women. So 

Beth Armstrong (34 : 56)
 The pink sofa is a dating app Nancy (34 : 58) 

For women only. Yes, but it's not just a dating site. It's also if you want to make friends because it is hard to connect with other gay people because it's not obvious a lot of the time who's gay and who's not. So you know, it's like saying to someone, Are you pregnant when they're not? You know, it's awkward, you know? So the good thing that things like the pink sofa feel is that if you want to find other parts of the community, you can state in your profile what you're looking for. 

Rose (35 : 26)
 That's a good idea. Nancy (35 : 28) 

Probably my tips for your friend would be to be kind to herself and just ride the wave. Don't have any expectations about you know what you've got to do or who you've got to be I was very lucky because I had no support. Initially, there was no one walking next to me, and I really relied on the kindness of strangers. And I had a lot of women that I met in that first six months that are still my closest friends. Now, I was out one night at a night called Girls on top. My friend in Queensland said, You gotta go to stuff and so I did. And it was really scary because I didn't. I had no one with my back, but then when I got in there this one night, this couple saw me because I got scared by this butch dyke in the other room. So I went into this other room and one of them started talking to me and she said, Have you been here before? And I said, No, this is actually my first time and and then I broke down and started crying, and she was there with her partner and a friend. They came down and sat next to me like it's okay and and then we went and had coffee, and then I offered to drive them home because I wasn't a drinker. at that point, and I lost my keys and they took me home to their house. I slept on their couch and they are still friends with me. To this day, they were like my lesbian godmothers. So the best thing that happened to me was that I was open and I asked for help. So be brave and find those people 

and let them be kind and help you on your journey. 

Rose (37 : 02) 

I want to add a second tip that I think if you've got an existing life that works with your new life, there's a different sort of adjustment. You need your people to adjust, and you need to help them because it's not a whole new community. You've probably got all the best friend spots field and the couple friends spots field, and hopefully not many of those will disappear as a result. So for me, it's been more a process of saying, Oh, my existing relationships needed some adjustment and I had that realisation that I was disconnected from my closest relationship, So she might also feel a bit of 

Nancy (37 : 38) Grief and
 Rose (37 : 41) 

That new community sounds beautiful. You still friends with them today? There wasn't a gap for me. I didn't reach into a new community. It was more like my existing community needed to adjust. What about you, 

Beth Armstrong (37 : 53)
 Mary? Because you're very fresh up. What's your thoughts? Mary (37 : 56) 

I have to say that Rose and Nancy both talked about something so important and has helped me. It's finding your tribe. It's finding a new family for me. In many ways I had to and finding the old family who are willing to stick by you and almost create the bond again. Yes, you know. So for example, my sister, she's a big supporter. We actually have a stronger relationship because I've left the religion than we had before. But it's almost like we have to get to know each other. And this new person and Nancy, you found sort of like parents. In a way. I had these neighbours in a place that I lived in before I came here. You know, they're straight, but they treated me with love and acceptance, and I embraced them. So, you know, when I said I proposed and then I was like, Who am I going to tell? What's amazing is right after that, I came out and I shared my joy with my followers. So I have a big instagram account and I had all this love and all the support. And there are people coming out of the woodwork who were friends who had always been there. But suddenly they were like, we're here for you. And so I think that what happens 

is do you find new people? You find a new trial, even your old tribe becomes a kind of a new tribe and talk about it and be vulnerable and get professional assistance. Because I definitely had to because I was also leaving what I call a cult. Yeah, 

Nancy (39 : 29) 

My partner calls mine the cult too. 

Mary (39 : 30) 

Yeah, yeah, because I was in there for 30 years of my life. But yeah, I would definitely say it's people finding your allies that help the process. 

Nancy (39 : 40) 

Yeah, I find it really interesting because there's not many people in my situation like you're one of the first people that I've talked to that's come out of a very fundamentalist church that was very much your entire life and interestingly, my closest friends, some of them gave me a really hard time when I left. Others were more understanding, but they've all since left the church and re-contacted me and ironically, my last boyfriend in the church. He came out 18 months after, so we're still best friends. But anyway, you know those people will come out. The ones that really matter will eventually come back to you. They'll find you again, which is a really lovely thing that I was able to experience. 

Mary (40 : 25)
 Nancy (40 : 26)
 Rose (40 : 28)
 Beth Armstrong (40 : 28)
 Could any of you imagine having a heterosexual relationship again? Rose (40 : 29) 

Never. Never. No way. Mary (40 : 32)
 Nancy (40 : 34) 

Actually, I can add one thing to this conversation because two of my friends were 

both identified, I guess, as being bisexual. And then they had this really
 weird moment where they were like, Well, I want to have kids. Do I go for a male partner or do I go for a female partner? And I watched them both navigate this, and in the end, both of them said that they were attracted to men, but they fell in love with women. So I actually spoke to one of the friends last night and she said, now there's no way she would go back to a male relationship. It's just too far from her now, So 

Rose (41 : 08) 

Never, the closest I would ever come to identify as a lesbian is when you ask me if I'd ever have a male partner. No, definitely. Absolutely. No way 

Nancy (41 : 17) 

Can I just say, as a gold star, I've had a few straight women say to me, You know, like, How do you know I'm like, Well, I never had any physical attraction at all. I didn't mind kissing men, but I look back in my life and I've always been attracted to women, even in year two. Veronica Andrews, who was our student teacher 

Rose (41 : 37) 

Yes that's so relatable, And I didn't know that the way I felt about men sexually wasn't attraction. That was conditioning. I didn't know until I was with 

Nancy (41 : 47) 

Women. It's fucking great. I got to tell you, when you hit that sweet spot. What do you call it? The U Haul? 

Mary (41 : 53)
 What's the U Haul
 Rose (41 : 55)
 Stereotype Lesbians moving with each other on Nancy (41 : 57)
 The third day? Second day?
 Beth Armstrong (42 : 00) 

I thought the U Haul must have been enticing other Nancy (42 : 02)
 Women to the That's the
 Mary (42 : 03) 

Toaster oven. You 

Nancy (42 : 06) 

Get a toaster oven if you can convert someone else to becoming a lesbian. 

Rose (42 : 10) 

Nancy (42 : 12) 

Rose (42 : 12) 

So are any of you toaster ovens? 

Mary (42 : 14) 

Yes, no. 

Rose (42 : 16) 

I try so hard. Everyone's getting a copy of the tragedy of heterosexuality. My little sister is Single at the moment, I'm like, Come on, come 

Nancy (42 : 23) 

On. There was one thing that happened to me a couple of times when I first came out with friends that I was friends with before one of them, you know, we're at the pub, and I said, I've got to tell you something, and she's like, Okay, And I said so it turns out I'm gay, and she just went all right, Good on you. I'm so thank you for telling me. And then there was this kind of pause, and she goes, um, can I just ask you a question? And I was like, Sure, and she goes, Well, were you ever attracted to me? 

Mary (42 : 51) And
 Nancy (42 : 52) 

I said to her, Look, you know, this is a really loaded question, because if I say yes, then it's gonna be weird. And if I say no, then it's gonna be weird. So I was like, Look, you know, do you fall in love with every man you see? And she went well, No. And I say the same thing, but yeah, I think everyone should be gay. Just because I'm having a great time. 

Rose (43 : 11) 

I want it for everyone. Me too. And Beth, just quickly on the sex thing. I don't really talk about it much, but early on, my aunt and my mom are having a chat. Like what? What goes on? What do you do? And I said, everything that goes on in your bedroom that isn't a penis in a vagina. And they were just blank. And I was like, Oh, you're having bad sex. Oh, you can't think of anything else. Oh, my gosh. 

Mary (43 : 37) 

Can I just say my answer to that would be everything that made me come and have an orgasm in my marriage is what lesbian sex is about. All the things that are 

Rose (43 : 47) 

Fantastic is what we're doing all the time. What are you doing in your sex your weirdos? I was honestly like, Why can't you comprehend what we're doing? Like for me now? I'm just like all the straights are revealing their shitty sex lives. When they're like what? I don't understand. I'm like you just revealed crappest sex of all time, mate. Honestly, there are few sexual acts that can only happen with a man and a woman or a woman and a woman or a man like everyone can get on board with nearly everything so everyone can have all the sex if you 

Nancy (44 : 17) 

Tweak it. You know, Actually, Beth, this is a question I wanted to ask you because this came up in a few conversations when the mums all get together from school, a lot of them have said to me that they have had very few, if any, orgasms with their husbands. And I was so first I was like disbelief. And secondly, I was like, Oh, my God, like that is so not a part of my world because it's, I mean, you've still got to work out what works for your partner and what works for you and all that sort of stuff. But there's so many 

women missing out on what truly mind-boggling sex is because they don't talk about their bodies and what they want. It seems to be more about the men, 

what they need to get done instead of a 

Rose (45 : 06) 

Big topic. This is massive. When you're in the like, let's all hate the husband's chat, and I'm feeling all queer because I like my spouse. They're talking about how they don't let their husbands look at their vulva. And I'm like, 

Nancy (45 : 20)
 But how are they meant to learn what to do Rose (45 : 23) 

With it. He Should love that, he should find that the most enticing, miraculous, beautiful sight he's ever seen. And if he's not saying Oh babe, I really want to know what can we do to make that comfortable for you? And if you're not being like, appreciate the pussy, what's happening there? What is your sex if he's not allowed to look at your 

Mary (45 : 41) 

Vulva? But 

Nancy (45 : 42) 

That's a big conversation, because that's what I realised with my straight friends. They don't talk about what they like, 

Rose (45 : 49)
 I can tell you from the past from my straight life they don't know what they Nancy (45 : 52)
 Like. They're unable to explore it.
 Mary (45 : 54)
 Basically no patriarchy and great sex - lesbianism. I
 Nancy (46 : 02)
 That may
 Rose (46 : 03) 

Be really
 Beth Armstrong (46 : 05) 

Actually men, straight men would love to sit down and talk to lesbian women. Or maybe the wives want them to sit down and talk to lesbian women. Really? 

Rose (46 : 14)
 Yes, but they also can be pretty gross when they do Nancy (46 : 17) 

That. Yes, I had a few experiences where because I have a lot of male friends When I first came out, one of my friends said to me, I love the fact that we're now going to be able to talk about women and I was like, No, 

Rose (46 : 30)
 Because we don't objectify them, you disgusting gross straights. Nancy (46 : 33) 

I don't want to do to women what you want. It's a different thing. It's like the male and the female cannot meet on this, but they can be more educated. Um, if look, I'm happy to run a class, you know, lesbian sex 101. 

Rose (46 : 50) 

But also there's the impact of the male gaze, right? That was something else that I just noticed so much when I was living a different life. The male gaze and the way lesbian culture can co-opt that, but often is like the ultimate rejection of the male gaze, obviously deeply in love with my partner, but also the politics of women loving women and how we can subvert the male gaze, or how even the straight dudes want to engage with you about women from a male gaze. Patriarchy perspective. But women are loving women. The way I do that is not That is not the way the stereotypical straight male is loving a woman. 

Mary (47 : 32) 

When I first started dating my partner, there was this older gentleman who I had met during work at one stage. And we talk about food and and I thought he was just interested in talking about - I was so naive. Okay, He loved 

food. So he said I would love to go out to a Sri Lankan restaurant in Sydney with you, and he kept asking me for, like, a year and a half, and it eventually and I said to him, Okay, sure. Fine. And I told him that I'm dating my partner and he spent the whole night trying to convince me that he can turn me. He made it very awkward for me. He said, Why don't you bring her? Both of you come to my place, Okay. And then he tried to kiss me. Oh, my God. I was just like, what have I done? Why would I think that having dinner with a man would just be having dinner with a man? And he did not respect. When I was with my husband. Yeah. He would respect you. He did. He never spoke about me like that. And completely change. That's because 

Rose (48 : 34) 

He respects you as another man's property, but not as an agent of your own. Exactly. 

Mary (48 : 38) 

It was the most horrifying night of my life, but I learned a lot about men that night. 

Rose (48 : 44) 

I'm glad you learned it in one night. Like good job, you fast learner. I like it. I'm 

Mary (48 : 49)
 Jealous. Okay,
 Beth Armstrong (48 : 52) 

Well, people can get in touch with me to get your consultation For other later Life lesbians might that want to talk to you. You're going to hold classes for straight men who want to learn how to love 

Nancy (49 : 02) 

A woman from women's gaze. Actually, I take that back. I'd rather run a class for straight women 

Rose (49 : 08)
 On how to love themselves and know what they like 

Nancy (49 : 11) 

Getting the women to say what they want, you know? Amen. 

Rose (49 : 15) 

Okay, 

Beth Armstrong (49 : 20) 

So I'm going to say thank you very much to Rose, Nancy and Mary. I can't tell you how excited I was about speaking to you tonight, 

Nancy (49 : 30) 

And I feel 

Beth Armstrong (49 : 31) 

Very grateful for how honest you've been. So thank you for sharing your stories. 

Rose (49 : 35)
 Thanks, ladies. I've loved hearing us.
 Mary (49 : 37)
 Maybe
 Beth Armstrong (49 : 39)
 We can do a part two
 Rose (49 : 40)
 Sealed section. I'm happy to do a part Two R-rated
 Nancy (49 : 43)
 You might need to change our names again. To like Tanisha and Rozonda and Rose (49 : 48)
 Lola. Yeah.
 Beth Armstrong (49 : 52) 

Thank you for listening. And thank you to these extraordinary women for sharing their stories. Yeah. Mm. If this episode has brought up distressing feelings and you need help, please call Lifeline on 13. 11 , 44 or Beyond. Blue on 1300. Double 24636. Sound production by unison with thanks to Luke may not Tom Herdman and Shihan Sorrel Music by Betty Connor and I'm Beth Armstrong. For more episodes, go to curveball media dot com dot au. Thanks for listening. Please review us on your preferred platform as it helps us reach more listeners. 

Gglot (50 : 29) Transcribed by Gglot.com