Enneagram in Real Life

Pain as a Spiritual Teacher as an Enneagram 7 with Samantha Mackay

November 29, 2022 Season 2 Episode 20
Enneagram in Real Life
Pain as a Spiritual Teacher as an Enneagram 7 with Samantha Mackay
Show Notes Transcript

On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Samantha Mackay, an Enneagram coach, trainer, and educator who specializes in using the Enneagram to amplify personal growth and healing. Samantha was a litigation lawyer until chronic stress and burnout lead her to evaluate what she really wanted in her life and to find the source of her pain. As a Self-Preservation Seven, she was good at ignoring her pain until her body made it clear that was no longer an option. She found the path to recovering from chronic stress and managing an autoimmune condition was to heal not just her physical body, but also her emotional, intellectual, and spiritual bodies. Her recovery journey started 15 years ago and she now supports others on their journey.


We discuss how Samantha found the Enneagram, her core type, and subtype, and how it now all plays a role in her life of personal healing, as well as coaching others to do the same. Such a fascinating episode that helps give great insight into the experience of a Self-Pres Seven.


Follow Samantha on Instagram: @individuo_coaching

Or connect with her online: www.individuo.co.nz


Here are the key takeaways:

  • Samantha’s Self-Pres Seven experience
  • Using the Enneagram in healing work
  • The importance of recognizing the need for deep inner work 
  • Giving ourselves permission to heal, what this looks like, and being patient through the process
  • Concision vs. Speed
  • How can you connect and work with Samantha?


Resources mentioned in this episode:


Want to keep the conversation going? Join me on Instagram @ninetypesco to keep learning and chatting about how our types show up in REAL LIFE! Connect with me here: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco/?hl=en

Learn more about subtypes! Download my free subtypes guide here.

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Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in real life. A podcast that will help you go beyond any grand theory into practical understanding so that you can apply the Enneagram in your day-to-day life. I'm your host, Steph Baron hall, creator of nine types co on Instagram, author of the Enneagram in love, accredited Enneagram, professional, and ennea curious human, just like you be sure to check out the show notes for more ways to apply the Enneagram and your daily life. Thanks so much for listening and now onto the show. Hello. I'm happy to be back with you this week after taking a little bit of a break for Thanksgiving. I hope you had a great week. Last week no matter where in the world you happen to be. Today, we have a really great episode because we're talking about a bit of a different side of types of it. So. We all tend to think of any gram sevens as. You know, fun, loving, or enthusiastic. And while sometimes those things are true and often they're true. Um, I think what really characterizes a seven is more about the mental stimulation and the way that they really seek wanting to try and experiment with so many different things in life that, It can be really difficult for them to slow down. But today we're talking with Samantha MCI, who is an Enneagram coach, and I'll introduce her more in a bit, but. With her experience with physical pain, she had to learn to see things a little bit differently in life. A lot of the time sevens. Do everything they possibly can to avoid experiencing pain, but Samantha's experience required her to see pain as more of a spiritual teacher and a way toward healing than to simply be another thing to run away from. So Samantha MCI is an Enneagram coach, trainer and educator, and specializes in using the Enneagram to amplify personal growth and healing. Samantha was a litigation lawyer until chronic stress and burnout led her to evaluate what she really wanted in her life. And to find the source of her pain as a self preservation seven, she was good at ignoring her pain until her body made it clear. That was no longer an option. She found that the path to recovering from chronic stress and managing an autoimmune condition was to heal, not just her physical body, but also her emotional, intellectual and spiritual bodies. Her recovery journey started 15 years ago and she now supports others on their journeys as well. You can find Samantha at her website, which is www.individual.co dot N Z. So that is. I N D I V I. D U O dot C O dot N Z. And yes, that means New Zealand. Or you can find her on Instagram at individual underscore coaching. And we talk a little bit about the name of her coaching organization. Um, and today's episode tube. So it's a great conversation and I really hope you enjoy. Oh, and you've heard Samantha's voice on this podcast before, because she interviewed me for a Truity YouTube channel as she does a lot of work with. The personality testing organization, Trudy. So I hope you really enjoyed this episode. And without further ado here, Samantha.

Steph Barron Hall:

Well, Samantha, welcome to the podcast.

Samantha Mackey:

Oh, thanks for having me. Super excited. Yeah, I think this will be fun. Um, so I have already introduced you. I know, but I just would love to hear a little bit more about you and a little bit more of your story. So tell me about yourself.

Steph Barron Hall:

Oh, and what a story it is. You know, sometimes I think that. Our own story is the least interesting because we've lived with it for so long that we forget that it could be actually intriguing or, you know, raise questions for other people. So, um, I am from Australia, grew up in Sydney. Um, but one of my big dreams in life was to live. In as many countries as possible or to live overseas. So I've spent time living in North America, particularly Canada. I've lived in London, in the uk. I've just spent 10 years living in New Zealand, and now I'm back in Australia with family for a little while and. I think being in all those places helped me get some perspective on myself. Um, I started off my career becoming a lawyer and that led to a huge bout of depression, but not really understanding why and eventually changing careers and. Moving to New Zealand really helped me leave that career behind and forced me to move in another direction into career like leadership development and, um, culture change and ultimately coaching. Um, but what I find fascinating about. My life is the thing that I'm passionate about, um, which is training and education and, and teaching people I've been doing my whole life. I started training for people when I was at university, um, running classes for other students, and I loved it. It was so much fun and it was wonderful getting students engaged in these new, um, topics like life skills, like budgeting and public speaking and presentations. I didn't know that could be a career. I didn't know that's something you could do, um, and make money from. And I think I've always held this false belief that work has to be hard and boring and you can't earn money for stuff that's fun. And I find training a lot of fun. And so it's taken me a long time to go, actually, this is what I do, this is what I specialize in, and it's okay. And, um, wonderful to make money for something that you truly enjoy doing.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. I mean that is such a mindset shift, I think, for so many of us. Like, because we grow up thinking, Oh, you know, get a good job, you know, good career, whatever, and then you'll have it made. And then realizing like, you did, Wait. This is not what I thought it was gonna be. This is not what I wanted. And I'm really curious. Yeah. Y what was the moment for you when you were a lawyer where you're like, Oh, that this is not gonna work. Like I need to.

Steph Barron Hall:

That took a long time, but I don't think I enjoyed it from the first minute. So I loved law school. I loved debating. I'm an an tp, you know, I love being inside of libraries and I just, libraries would light me up all that knowledge in one place. How exciting. But, Lawyering in the real world is a bit depressing. So one of my first legal jobs as a paralegal was working, um, on one of the large tobacco cases, um, back in the early two thousands. And so I would spend most of my time looking through old newspapers for advertising about smoking and cigarettes. And I thought, Okay, this is interesting. And then in my next paralegal work, which was more general, I just was. There isn't anything pleasurable here. Everyone's doing the same thing. There's a whole lot of command and control leadership style that really doesn't work for people. It's not a very healthy environment, and I just can't see myself doing the same thing for the rest of my life. So I tried to find something in, in the legal, you know, profession that I'd find interesting. And so I specialized in international trade and shipping law because I thought you. International global law and the World Trade Organization, that sounds fascinating. You know, what happens between countries sounds really interesting. And then I learned that basically to work in, that you had to work in boring places like The Hague and Canberra and um, I suppose it would be, you know, um, Washington, DC for you guys. And I was like, I don't wanna live in those places. That doesn't sound very fun. Um, and so it was a journey to. Try it and keep realizing that no, it didn't suddenly become exciting. And yes, I could have been great at it. I could have been a great litigation lawyer and a great barrister, but I just looked at that life and went, That's not how I wanna spend the next 30, 40 years. That's not how I can see or envision what I want my li this one life to look like. So I think I was in the legal profession in total. Um, Five years, if not, no, probably longer than that. Actually like seven to, to nine years from paralegal to when I finally left, cuz there was some paralegal lawyering. There was some lawyering, there was a range of different things in the legal industry as a whole. Um, so it took about 10 years, but each time I was doing a legal job, I was like, Hmm, what training opportunities are there? How can I train people? And they'll be like, That's not your job. You're not meant to train. But I'm like, But that's the fun stuff. How do I, how do I do that?

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. So you were like even then trying to angle to do the work you really wanted to do,

Steph Barron Hall:

Really was, Yeah,

Samantha Mackey:

So then how did you find the engram and tell us your type. I feel like you've given us some hints already, but uh, yeah. Tell us about how you found the engram and your type.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm. So I was first introduced to the engram. Maybe, I don't know, five or more years ago now, I was working for an organization of air traffic controllers in a change management contract. And one of the, the, the project managers said, This is an organization of sixes and here is some information about that. And by knowing that, that I really helped the project, and I'm like, Well, I know nothing about this system. I dunno anything about sixes, let alone the fact that there's so many multiple types of sixes and. I sort of set it aside. I mean, I took a test, I tested as a five. It didn't resonate with me, and I was like, Well, I don't really know how to use this information. And honestly, if I'd been able to use it, that contract may have gone a lot better because they were sixes through and through. And if I had known that, What I know now would've been so much more powerful back then, but I didn't. And so then a few years later, I had the opportunity to take an IQ nine test and the day before I was due to get my results, cuz it was happening in person, she was gonna hand me the report over the table with coffee. I was like, I'm not going to believe the report unless I've already decided what my type is. So I feel like that's a very powerful clue there because I was trying to equalize the power. I didn't want this report to have power over me. It couldn't tell me who I was. And so I opened up Beatrice's leadership book and I. Quickly skimmed through all the chapters and I'm like, Oh, none of these are me. And I'm like, Well, how about you slow down? What if you read more than the first page? What if you read the first few pages? What insights might that share that you've already overlooked? And so through this process of elimination, by taking some time, I was like, It's clear that you're a seven. You know, if it wasn't clear already, it's clear that you're a seven and. This is where I was at. So I put the book down, went, got my test results the next day. Yes, I was a seven. And what really resonated with me when I read that report was that motivation of a seven to move away from pain and discomfort. And at that moment, I'd been working on my, my healing journey for, oh, like maybe 10 years. And everything I'd done, everything I'd spent my money on in that time would been to release pain, to release, particularly chronic physical pain, um, if not emotional pain, although I was less attuned to that at the. But it also said I was a sexual seven, which I just took for granted. I didn't fully understand. And I sort of moved on from that and just worked with that sort of seven piece. And so then a few years later, um, I even just last year actually it was suggested, um, in one of the retreats that we attended that I might not actually be a sexual seven. I might be a self-preservation seven. And so I went and watched a bunch of videos with interviews of each of the seven subtypes. I got out the complete engram and analyzed the pages and all the subtypes, and by analyze very head type approach, I underlined every statement that sounded like me. From all three sections, and then I tallied them up in a table and it was very clear that the self-preservation had far more underlines, um, than the other two. Social had very few sexual, had a little bit more, but that's, I was like, Okay, so this. This is it. I can't deny that I'm a self-preservation seven, but of course I was slightly slash more than slightly heartbroken to not be a sexual seven because they're so much fun and they get to, you know, wear these rose colored glasses and life looks so wonderful. And I was really disappointed to not be that magical creature, um, and to face my realities a self-preservation seven. So once I got through that disappointment, I've been really able to use it as a tool for growth. Um, but yes, self-preservation. Seven social re.

Samantha Mackey:

Okay. Yeah, that, that makes sense. And I think it's so interesting how subtypes can be so clarifying in that sense. It, it really is hard for me to imagine a sexual seven mistyping as a five, but the self-preservation seven, to me it's like, oh, that, that makes sense why that could happen. And it's also so funny to. How analytical you were when you went about that, because I think that a lot of the time, that's the part of the seven that gets missed, and I actually think that it leads to some mistyping as well. where people think, Oh, this person's not a seven because they're way too organized, they're way too planned out. And I'm like, No, no, no. Like I know multiple seven two are that way. I'm like, I have never met somebody who's better with a budget. Like, and they just have specific reasons for that. Um, and I'm curious if that's been a factor in the way that you go about like, understanding yourself and understanding Engram material because you have that very um, Very curious, like the, the side of you that people would probably label as five-ish, but like very analytical, very like thorough processing. Um, maybe just a little quicker than we would expect from a five, but still very thorough.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Um, I am very analytical, although it's not, It's funny. What I analyze and what I don't. Um, so when it came to studying coaching, I almost leapt into that without thinking it through at all. But then there are some decisions where I will analyze every single option and then not even move forward with one. So I remember once when I was a teenager, I wanted to buy my mom a toaster or a sandwich maker. This is pre-internet, so I was at the mall. I went to every single shop that would sell a toast. Dose maker. I looked at all the options. I analyzed all the features and benefits. I refused to make a decision until I'd seen absolutely every possible option, which of course, then I, I think I just bought one at random after that cause I was so exhausted from this, you know, process. So. It is really interesting, and I think a lot of my growth work has been a very thought based process where it sees a thought that is incongruent, that doesn't make sense, and I'm like, Oh, let's look at that thought with curiosity and observe it and just see what's going on there. Because when I, I think about that thought, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit in, and so yeah, I often don't feel like I look like a seven. I'm not someone who, what I would call that hedonistic party animal. That's how I sort of think the, the seven is really stereotyped. And one of the things I do wish I'd done more of in my life is party. I wish I'd partied more, Wish I'd traveled more. I wish I'd done more of that, but I'm the kind of seven who loves to get lost in a book, who could re spend all month reading fantasy novels, who, um, loves to go to the theater and eat at cafes and try new foods and sometimes eats way too much chocolate and dessert, but it to. That doesn't necessarily, it's a form of glu, but it's not the glu that we necessarily think of when we think of the engram as the enthusiast or the adventure or the hedonistic person. You know, I think of them as dancing on tabletops at three o'clock in the morning, um, and going to, you know, week long RAs, and I'm like, I wish I'd done that. But, you know, I definitely didn't do enough of that in my, in my younger years.

Samantha Mackey:

That's so funny. Never too late.

Steph Barron Hall:

I'm too tired now. Too tired.

Samantha Mackey:

So I'm curious how the Engram has then impacted your own healing, because it sounds like it's just been. Almost a way of unlocking some things that you weren't able to recall or, or understand about yourself before. And then also kind of inspiring you to help others on that same journey.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm, So I really only learned about my self-preservation seven type last year. And so one of the things I've seen. Or seen through that lens is some of the shifts I've made in the previous 10 to 15 years. You know, some big. Things that didn't make sense that I've been able to see and challenge, I can now see through that lens. So one of the things, self-preservation sevens are described as as creating this good mafia or this partisan group, which I never really understood the concept of until I was able to retrospectively look at my life and so on my healing journey. I would have what I would call my support crew. And this support crew existed usually of about five people at any one time. And we're a range of different health or healing practitioners. So it might have included a physiotherapist, a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a naturopath, a therapist, you know, the list goes on. And so whenever I experienced any pain, I'd be like, Right, who is the person in my support crew best suited to remove this pain? And I would book an appointment and off I would go. And if they didn't help, I'd just move down the list and even. the acupuncturist always last on the list, but it could always solve the problem. And after a while I realized that the next stage was to be able to sit with the pain for myself and just take a minute to see, what was happening within me and that pain as opposed to dashing off to my support, grow to release it for me. And I didn't know the engram at the time, and I didn't know that that would be part of a self-preservation Stephen's journey to just accept and be with the pain themselves. And that's not something I could have done at the start of the journey. There was years of meditation and slowing down that ability to be with myself, my inner world before that shift was possible. And so I don't know if that's somewhere, if I'd even recommend a self-preservation seven, start with that sort of shift. But seeing the role that support crew or my mafia played in my, in that process and then that step to moving away for it, I can see very much the self preservation lens, Self preservation seven lens that went across the top of that. and I see all, I can see it so layered now. You know, there was a time I was like, Oh, you are using your charm and your ability to connect with people. But it's not, it's very superficial and it can be manipulative. So let's just stop doing that and see what happens. And last year I notice. That opportunism and looking for opportunities, and I'm like, What could be wrong with looking for opportunities? I mean, that is like how you get by in life. What I realized last year when I could watch it, observe that reaction in as it happened was it was trying to mask. Something, mask, boredom, mask a fear of boredom. And I was like, Oh, well if I can get paid to do this uncomfortable thing, then that makes it okay. And so being able to see that energy to, to pursue an opportunity as in real life as it happened, I could pause and go, Oh, well maybe that's something you actually don't need to do. Maybe that's something you don't want to do, and maybe you just need to give yourself permission to not do it, rather than chase that opportunity. But at the same. that doesn't make an opportunity a bad thing to pursue, but you just need to evaluate what's the motivation behind it and whether it's gonna help or hinder you, whether it's something you want or not want.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah, I think that's such a good insight because I have coached some sevens and I, I find that there is commonly that, well, why would I wanna do something different than what I'm doing? Like it seems to work. And my question is always obviously like, Well, you're here, aren't you? Like, why are you here? You know, why do you wanna do something different? But, it like chasing an opportunity doesn't feel like a bad thing. And in fact, I think most of us feel like, Oh man, I really wish that I had all of that energy that seven seemed to have to be able to do that. But I love that question of like slowing down and saying, Is this really what I want or need to do or do I need. Be a little bit bored, and see what that's like. And that, I think, for sevens feels, uh, panic inducing at times. That boredom aspect.

Steph Barron Hall:

Oh, definitely, definitely. Um, I'm doing a lot of childcare at the moment and having to manage the boredom of that and that is, uh, tough. Definitely tough.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so

Steph Barron Hall:

I love my nephew to bits, but you know, it's still hard.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. No, I, So I'm, I'm a three, but I, if I were not a three, I think I would be a seven. Like, it just feels so close to home for me. And I remember I would always be asked, like people, you know, when I was a teenager, people would be like, Oh, you seem so responsible. Can you like beer in handy? Or whatever. I'd be like, Sure. Oh my gosh. When we would just sit and like, Play whatever, like dolls or toys or whatever. I would just be like, so bored. I, I would fall asleep. It was so awful. so bad. It's like, not, not good. Um, but there can be a lot of boredom and a lot of monotony. Um, in some ways other things. It's like, I, I wish there was more boredom, but, you know, Um, so. What do you think

Steph Barron Hall:

I don't think I answered to your second question. You were asked me why did I wanna work with the engram, but we can come back to that cuz you were about to ask me a different question. So how do you, Okay. So you also asked me how has that led to me working with the engram? And so I've been on this healing journey for 15 years because I've been living with chronic anxiety and stress and pain and injury and all sorts of things, um, for this time. And I've worked with so many different healers and taken so many different approaches to it. And I spent a lot of. As one might imagine over the course of that time, a lot of money on trying to be out of pain and to sort of recover. And I've come a long way and things are a lot better and I still, I'm always still gonna be on that journey to some extent. But I think I was frustrated with how limiting some of those tools were and how you couldn't necessarily guarantee which one was gonna be the right approach for you. You didn't know what was gonna work for you and what wasn't. And when I've discovered the engram. And seeing how you can tailor it to the person to where they're at, um, to be very specific with what's going on for them. And then I can then coach them in a way that suits them. I feel like it really amplifies, um, the work. And that doesn't necessarily mean someone's gonna spend less money or less time or less energy, but it makes it feel more intentional. Like, you know, you're working on the right thing that, you know, you're putting that energy in the right place because healing is never a quick journey. Um, but I feel like there is in some ways when we know that we are working on it in the right way. Does that in a, in a amplifies it somehow, you know, it's really one of those paradoxes because you can't speed it up. It takes as long as it takes, but maybe it'll take slightly less time if you know that you're, um, purposefully approaching, um, your healing work.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. I love the analogy of the engram, that it's a map and in so many ways it does kind of give you that perspective on your client of like, this is the thing that you're probably struggling with the most beneath all of these external factors.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, seeing beneath the surface and you know, as we know from our studies with CP Engram, it's not just all the layers within the engram itself, but all of the various assessment factors that can help you pinpoint exactly where someone needs to be working on. Which I don't think just looking at the engram itself, you truly know. And I think in our studies, that's really has what's opened my eyes to the potential of the engram, because if it wasn't for. And the professional certification program, um, that we've been on. I wouldn't have known that this tool was as powerful as it was because at the surface, if you just read a book, you'd think it's just another typology system. Yes. One with more growth opportunities and more focus, but not to the depth that I now know or we now know, um, from studying it the way we.

Samantha Mackey:

Absolutely. And I think, um, that is one of the layers that I. Takes a long time to learn as well of being able to sit with a client and, and recognize, okay, I think that this is the root issue, you know, and, and then working forward from there. If you don't do that, then it really short changes all of the work that you're trying to do. I'm curious if you've reflected on your journey, if you have reflected and and seen. Oh, I think that this factor was playing a bigger role than I rec recognized at that time.

Steph Barron Hall:

Mm, definitely. I actually did a little exercise for myself. In January, going through all the assessment factors to see which was playing a biggest role. Um, so I've definitely been living from the five arrow for, for about the last 10 years, which is why I test as a five because I've been really withdrawing inwards and I now need some help almost to come out of that arrow and to embrace my qualities of seven again. And that's proving challenging in its own way. Um, I've also been working on the instinct, so really. Almost too worried about money and too worried about resources and, um, trying to control what's happening with that self-preservation instinct. And I get really stressed if you take away my ability to work and earn money, my anxiety just goes through the roof. And so that self-preservation instinct is a little bit too overactive. But I'm also saying that social repressed instinct at play, because what I thought when I was a. I had this motivating thought is I needed to do something that no one else was doing, that I had to be special. There's no point doing something that everyone else was doing. And that thought has really driven throughout my career, but you know, as a somewhat expresses a focus to be, make sure I was doing creative work. And so at times you can think, well, is Samantha a four? I mean, because that's a very, it sounds on the surface like a fore motivation. And I've really just come to realize it's actually the social repress. Fear at play because how can you be in a group where you'll like everyone else? How do you stand out when you look exactly like everyone else and you know, social oppressed, You're afraid of groups. Groups are something you can't trust. But as a coach or as an any Graham coach, there's lots of me, there is lots of other people who are coaches and specializing in the engram. How do I stand out, How do I cope with just looking like everyone else? And so, I think that desire to be completely special is driven from a fear of blending in with the group, um, where a social dominant person is quite comfortable blending well. Some of them is quite comfortable blending in with the group and working through that fear of, of specializing that a seven has, but also looking like other people because you actually can't earn any money if there's only one of you, you know, you have to. In a pretty privileged position for you to be the only person in the world doing what you do. Um, and yeah, so accepting, blending in with the group is a current challenge.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah. Like people have to have a schema almost for, for what you do and what type of work you do. And I, I actually talk about that a lot with people who, um, I do some business coaching, like one of. One or helping people map things out. Um, just because I have, you know, been self-employed for so long, um, or have had like various different businesses, um, it's not something I totally advertise, but in thinking about that, a lot of the time I, I hear people saying, Why would I do this? Like, there are so many other people doing X, there's so many other people doing Y and it's like, but they're not you, you know? Um, and so, There is that point of like having to stand out. And also at the same time, I, I love this thought that like if somebody else is doing it, it means that there's a market for it. So it's fine to also be doing the same thing as somebody else.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah.

Samantha Mackey:

I don't know.

Steph Barron Hall:

Oh no, it absolutely is. It's just there's a fear inside of me that says, Oh, no. Well, if you go into, if you walk into a room and everyone's the same, how you stand out, why will people talk to you? You know, there is a, you know, all those things that are wrapped up in that repressed instinct, um, coming to the surface and tangling and dancing with those. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really useful. And I think, um, I appreciate you answering that because there's a lot of vulnerability in those assessment factors. I think so. Um, yeah. I appreciate that. You were even answering one of the questions earlier. You mentioned this concept of giving yourself permission. Um, so whether it's permission not to do something or even I think on your side it says permission to heal. Um, what does that mean for you? Like why is that important and how do we tend to hold ourselves back from this healing process?

Samantha Mackey:

Hmm. So permission. It's, it's very difficult to hear without having permission to do so. So firstly, you have to acknowledge that you have an issue that needs addressing, and so you have to give yourself permission to even see it and to accept it and to go, Okay, this is me. I do have anxiety. Great. What do we do with that? Because if we have an. That we're not willing to acknowledge, no matter how painful it is. We can't do anything with it. We're just living in denial. And for me, I, when I was in London, I was very, very sick. Um, and I had palm sized weeping welts all over my body. I couldn't sleep due to the pain. Um, it was, it was awful. Absolutely awful. I changed the way I wore, like the clothes I wore, I was wearing bandages across my arms and legs to try and protect myself from it. It was. Truly horrendous. And yet I was still denying there was a problem. I was like, We're just gonna live with this. We're just gonna keep going on. We're just gonna keep pushing through. And some, I needed to experience more pain, um, until I could go. This, this is okay. This doesn't have to be forever, but this is an issue that you actually need to acknowledge and start to address. And so the human brain is exceptionally good at ignoring what it doesn't wanna deal with. Um, and for some people, their illnesses aren't so obvious as mine. You know, mine was staring at me in the face every day, and I still was ignoring it. There comes a point where if we wanna start healing, we have to give ourselves permission to acknowledge that we have an issue or there is something like this. Or to accept that I'm a self-preservation seven. I could have lived in denial about that for a lot longer and pretended I was a sexual seven and then done nothing with it. So there is this permission to move forward and a pushman to accept and to acknowledge, but there's also permission that we need. Break our own rules because we have so many conditioned expectations or rules from our family, from society, from from our cultural expectations and just our life experiences that we don't realize are these false beliefs or rules that are encapsulated in our psyche in how we're operating. And so we need to be able to give ourselves permission to. Hmm. This is the rule I'm trying to live by. Is that helping me? What if I just did the opposite? What would happen, and this is a very thought based approach. Obviously we're pulling out these thoughts and looking at them, but. Sometimes it's just, can I just give myself permission to move without analyzing? You know, can I just give myself permission to do something a little bit different and see what will happen? Because we know at the Engram, our attention is so focused in one space that we are just not looking at everything else. And so when we give ourselves permission, we can start to look at these other places and hold those thoughts and feelings up non-judgmentally and just look at them and ask ourselves, Can I do the opposite? The became really clear to me how important this was when I had taken, um, some time off work. I was severely burnt out, um, unable to work, and I essentially just slept for three months, part of my recovery. And during that time, I asked only one thing of myself. I said, I just want you to go for a walk every day. Just, just get outta bed. Go. You love going for a walk in the morning. You love seeing the sunrise. Just go for a walk. And the moment I ask that of. noticed myself resisting it. I started refusing to get out of bed until it was well past morning and I didn't have to go for a walk anymore, and I was like, Why? This is something you like to do. You have absolutely no other obligations right now. There is. There was no excuse. You know, you're not late for anything. What is possibly going on? That could be your body be instinctually resisting this, you know, wanting you to procrastinate. And so I sat there and I just, I thought about it and I looked at it and just realized I need to give myself permission to change my rules. And so the rule I changed first was, um, as opposed to saying, going for a walk first thing in the morning, going for a walk after you've gotten out of bed. And so I was essentially giving my body permission to rest as long as it would like. And then the second I got out of. Then to, to leave the house. And that small shift in perspective and thought processing and almost permissions unlocked it. I walked every day for the, for the next year, and so that made me realize that. A lot of our like procrastination or our struggles or our inability to move forward is tied up in these tiny little rules we set for ourselves about our expectations and assumptions about how something has to be or should be or must be. And then when we can see those and shift them even, something really simple like that, we can really unlock so much progress and healing and growth and energy within our.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Wow. That's such a simple thing, but I love that you bring such a thoughtful, and, and you know, like we've mentioned analytical to it. Um, Because I think it really does connect with a lot of people who, obviously we all have emotions and most of us need some emotional development, right? But not everyone works super well with the, like, just feel about it or just like connect to the meaning of it. Like sometimes we need a different approach. And I love that you have such a, a clear approach that you've been able to apply for your own life too. So thinking about all of these different things, cause I feel like you have such a, um, really a grounded perspective on healing and, you know, working through pain. And I'm curious, is that something that you've kind of always had a sense of, or was that. brought about by all of these really painful, like chronic illnesses and these different experiences that you ex, you had.

Samantha Mackey:

I think with anything in someone's. There was always gonna be some sort of element of family conditioning there. And so for me, I grew up in a family where we, we prided ourselves on being tough women and being strong women and having, um, high pain thresholds and being able to really take on a lot. And there was a sense of having to, you know, hard work, being really valued, um, and almost denying your own pain or, you know, whether it's physical or emotional, whatever it is. down the track, I realized, you know, the more healing I did, the more pain I feel. My, my pain threshold is a lot lower than what it used to be. You know, I used to be able to endure some pretty painful massages because I had, you know, muscles that needed, you know, fixing. And now I'd be like, Oh, I don't even know. I could handle that in the way I could before. And so part of my learning about pain was experiencing, you know, extreme pain for an extended amount of. And having to, you know, learn how to meditate through that pain and how to focus on that pain and, um, how to have a completely different relationship with that pain, um, than what I was having. But also to move away from that paradigm of having to be strong, that it was okay to be weak. Or it was okay to be sick, um, or it was okay to not be able to get outta bed. It was okay to rest. Um, it was okay to see a therapist and talk about your emotional pain, and so all of it. I think pain is a call to action for most people. You know, I think, you know, everyone's situation is unique and everyone's pain comes from a different place, but I think for most people it's a call to action, to do some inner work, to see what is out of alignment. Because even my career was causing me pain, you know, spiritual pain because I wasn't doing the kind of work that my soul wanted to. And so I actually needed to, to healing in all of my domains. Uh, spiritual, emotional, mental, or intellectual and spiritual. All of them were experiencing pain in some form, and all of them needed attention. To access those other domains. I had to start with a physical, I had to create some stability within my physical body. Not necessarily release all the pain or deal with all the problems, but create some stability before I could then start approaching, you know, the emotional or intellectual or or spiritual pain. And so it really has been a journey. Like I wouldn't have been called to shift that paradigm or that belief system about needing to be strong unless I had all this pain. That meant some days I just couldn't get outta bed or couldn't work, you know, after I had that burnout, I wasn't able to work a full five day week for two years. I simply didn't have the energy or, you know, ability to concentrate for that long. So it's a, it was really long journey back.

Steph Barron Hall:

I've heard a few stories like that recently, like, and I think we're hearing that more and more about that level of burnout, and I'm curious what was that like for you? Because I think our society just is like, What? What's wrong with you? Why can't you work more than that? and I'm curious what that was like if, if you had to deal with a lot of people kind of pushing back and saying, No, you need to work more, or does that not matter because you're a seven and not a a three

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall:

a very three question to a seven

Samantha Mackey:

No, it's, and it's a good question to ask. So I didn't receive a lot of pushback per se, because I had already had a little mafia group going. I seemed to be great at having those little mafia groups and I, in a particular group I had at the time, which was full of people doing their own thing, very entrepreneurial. Uh, a member of my group had already been through burnout, and I came to him. I had this list right here is what I'm gonna do, yoga every day. I'm gonna meditate every day. Here is my list of everything I'm gonna do to make healing happen over this time. And he's. Nah, you cannot do any of that. You can write it all down, but only do exactly what you feel like doing at the time, which was some of the most powerful advice I think I'd ever received. Do what you feel like doing in the moment. And it turned out I mostly felt like sleeping. Um, you know, I ate, I watched a little tiny bit of tv, hardly read a book at all. I mostly just slept with the occasional walk. Really, That's all I did. So I got a lot of support from the people. I actually happened to be in my immediate space, but the job I was in at the time, I was doing internal communications for a media company. And initially I loved the job and they were going through a big transformation as media companies were often to do at that time, trying to save themselves. And I worked exceptionally hard trying to help, you know, save and change and transform this organization. At the end of that period, I didn't take a break. I didn't re, I didn't say, Hey, you've been working really hard. You've been trying to save 2000 people's lives and jobs. Let's just take a few weeks to recover. Cause what actually happened at that time, I was switched to a different department with a per a manager I didn't love, and the things I didn't resonate with. And there was all this uncertainty for prolonged amount of time. And so I'd taken all this love and devotion and overwork. Driven, you know, from my descent, my defenses and my instinctual systems as we know now. And then almost just in, in some way tossed aside, um, left to languish for a bit, not given permission to take a time out, and just not really feeling like I was belonging anymore. And I just got to the point where I was like, Well, I just can't do this anymore. You know, I'm starting to hate this company where I used to love it. You know, I just hate being. And the moment I said I'm resigning, they offered me my ideal job. Although my ideal job at the time, um, they said, You can be the career, uh, the change strategist for the organization. We're gonna create a whole new job for you because you're great. We wanna keep you, you'd be great at this. And I'm like, I needed that six months ago. It's now too late. I cannot in good conscious or good faith take on this job because I'm too jaded, I'm too tired, I'm too angry, I'm too all of those things. Um, and I walked away and I think. There've been many, many pivotal moments in my, my life in terms of my career and my health. And, but this was really one, because this was like, I didn't say, Give me three months, I'll come back to you and take on that job. I didn't say Yes. I'm, that's, that's my, I said I'm, I'm committed to taking this time off. I'm done. And I thankfully just happened to have enough savings in the bank that I could take three months off and just recover. I'll never forget that moment. I'm like, Where was this ideal job six months ago? Where was this? You know, this thing. Um, so very sliding doors moment I found

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, but then it kind of unlocked that opportunity for you to go into a sense of like actual true deep level healing.

Samantha Mackey:

and. To go, What can I do? So I started my own consulting company at that point, which I know some people would think it would be much harder work than getting an actual job, but for me it was more freeing. It had the freedom to work how I wanted, where I wanted. Um, and yeah, as you know, an opportunistic self preservation seven, going again, clients actually wasn't that hard. Although I look back at it now and I have no idea how I did it, but I did it. I have no idea, but I.

Steph Barron Hall:

was gonna say, uh, can you help

Samantha Mackey:

I cannot tell you. Um, but, you know, I ran a consulting company for maybe a, I dunno if it was a year and a half, two years, I'm not sure how long it was now before I realized again, that it wasn't the right path for me. That there was a, I was like, Okay, I don't, what I offer doesn't suit the market and I don't wanna change either of those things. Um, so what's the next iteration of that? But being able to work part-time on my own terms, Was huge as part of that recovery.

Steph Barron Hall:

Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Um, On your website, you also say healing happens when we bring light and love to the darkness together. And I'm really curious as a self press seven, what has been your experience of kind of being able to see the darkness? Because again, like that's something that a lot of the time we talk about for sevens, that requires so much patience. And I, I mean, I, I feel like we're already hearing. Throughout your story, like that thread of burnout and pain in those aspects, um, was it just that you had to stare at it? Like, and that was the only way forward?

Samantha Mackey:

Mm. And it had to die. So when I talk about the darkness, I mean both the literal and figurative. So the dark, you know, the, the inside of you, you know, and you're inner work. I almost feel to me is the darkness. But also these moments would happen in the middle of the night. inside the literal darkness because there's nothing, I think for a seven, there's nothing else you can see. There's nothing else you can distract. So when you're just you and the darkness and you're in a world, it's like, Right, what's, what am I staring at? What is really going on here? And so there were many a night that felt like a dark night of the soul or what we might actually call a dark nine at the sensors. But at the time, it felt like this dark nine of the soul because. You were locked in this sort of pain and you're facing this paradigm and you're like, I just, What is the truth here? What is the truth of my current situation that I'm not seeing? And usually it was a, you know, usually seeing a part of your mask, your personality that had to die that you had to release. And it does feel like a death in a way. But on the other side of that is so much light and freedom and space and joy that you just had no idea was going to be there. But you had to see the paradigm. And accept that they could both be true at the same time. You can be weak and strong at the same time. Things can be black and white. They can be hard and soft. Like whatever those things I was facing at the time, it was going, These are both true and that's okay. And so how do we move forward in that new reality? And yeah, for me, like, and I think this, it can be what seven experience is. is, it does feel like a death of some kind because you have to face that pain and face that darkness and face that paradigm that you've been held onto for so long and go right. I'm finally looking at it. I'm looking, What am I gonna do with it? Um, but you can't enter that darkness. With anything else but love and, um, a nonjudgmental like observation of yourself. Um, because you can't shift through those paradigms with judgment. You can only shift through with faith and, um, self belief and sort of permission and trust really.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah, and it's really hard work. I love hearing it described and then when you're actually doing the work you're like, Wow, this kind of sucks. Like this sucks bit And cuz I think what's so hard about those moments is like looking back, you can see, oh, that's when I was doing that really important work. But in the actual moment it's. I am just floundering. I have no idea what's happening and everything feels like shit. Like I, I, I literally don't know how to else, to describe it. And then looking back and being like, Oh, that was, that was the moment where this became really clear for me, or, or I understood this thing about myself.

Samantha Mackey:

Mm. Yeah. I had a post-it note on my wall that said, Can you do this from bed? Because I had to give myself permission, just stay in bed so often and I'm like, Can I work from bed today? Yes I can. Because that was as much as I could do. As you, you almost battle these dragons and battle these inner dragons. Um, and. I just remembered that for a while there I had sort of, you know, how you create those little avatars of your own inner world and what you're inner child. Mine was like a little baby dragon. It was fierce. And it was like, uh, ready to go on defense, but at the same time it was really vulnerable and didn't realize half the drama that it was getting itself into. And it was like, Oh no. Oh, we should, That's too much. Let's dial that back. But yeah, little dragon, cute little dragon

Steph Barron Hall:

That's so funny. I love that image. So I know that you are now opening up for more coaching and things like that. So tell me about what you're doing now, because I want people to be able to hear where they can connect with you and what type of work you do. Um, now I.

Samantha Mackey:

Yeah, really just specializing and using. Coaching as a tool for healing and growth, um, amplified by the engram. And I think the engram is a really important piece of that puzzle. I became a coach, um, 10 years ago and have run coaching businesses before, and I used that coach, you know, those coaching skills in all aspects of my life. But I really felt that when it came to. Um, applying it to healing. And when I say healing, I don't just mean physical healing because it applies, you know, whether it's emotional, um, intellectual or spiritual, whichever domain of your life. And often it's all of them that need some attention. That coaching can come into that space and. There's lots of different types of healing out there as we know, and so I don't specialize in trauma. I'm not a therapist, but often to do a certain amount of growth work, we need to go back and attend to a little bit of healing work in some way. You cannot go forward without at going back to some extent. And so when we work with Engram, it becomes easier to acknowledge and identify what some of those, um, childhood wounds or issues that might be. That we need to go back and do some gardening on so we can more quickly move into our growth stage or whatever our, our goals or aspirations are in life. And so I find that the engram helps us do healing and growth work concurrently. And so when I'm coaching people, it's focusing on, yes, what do you want in your future, but what is it that we might need to tend to in your past that's currently inside your psyche that is holding you back in some way? Because if we can find. And work with it lovingly and gently and as it needs to be worked with, then we can create your shift. Um, I keep wanting to say faster, but, and in some ways that's true, and in some ways it's not true. And I'm trying to figure out how to navigate that paradigm because. It is both far more intentionally, it can be more speedier, but at the same time, it takes as long as it takes, you know, because people's minds are their own and they've got to go through their own journey about what's happening inside your mind when you're in a world. Um, and that's unique for everyone.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, it's more like a concision rather than speed

Samantha Mackey:

Mm. Concision.

Steph Barron Hall:

Um, so where can people connect with you? Like, I know you have your website, so can you tell us about that?

Samantha Mackey:

you can find me@individual.co nzs. That's I N D iv id uo. And that means individual ngo. So it's together. Alone or alone together. Because for me that is what a healing journey is. And sometimes when you have to do it alone, but you're never truly alone and it's sometimes you need to do it with someone else. Um, and it's. Just part of that journey. So I have a few courses available, um, one called Permission to Heal, which is all about how you can go into your inner world and look at, um, your feelings and the thoughts associated with your illnesses and some of the unmet needs that are contributing to them. And the point of that is to help you decide who is the practitioner you best need to work with, so you don't need a support crew of five. Who is just the one person or the one type of person who's gonna unlock the most shifts for you? Right now I have a course on procrastination, but procrastination isn't about productivity. It's about healing. It's a call to look at some of that inner conditioning and fear that we have in order to create flow within our system Again. And then I have a course on grieving because we have so much untended to grief that needs dealing with no matter what our type. And what I wanna do is give people the ability to look at grieving from so many different points of view. It doesn't have to be about crying, it doesn't have to be about feeling sad. There is so many different ways to approach grieving, but only that we need to approach our grief, not just. The death of, you know, loved ones, but changing jobs, getting sick. Um, we get grief from so many different things in our life, and if we have that ability to approach it more tenderly and lovely whenever it arises, that is like a skill set we need for life. Um, and so I have those three courses available, but really it's, it's all about, you know, creating space and new perspectives to shift whatever you need to shift with your, your growth plan and your life at the.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, I love it. I'm going to put those in the show notes so that everyone can make sure to check out your site. okay, so. My final two questions that I ask everybody. Um, tell me about a book that has helped you refresh you or shaped you in the last year.

Samantha Mackey:

Mm. And I've read a lot of books. Uh, I read about a hundred books a year, so my goal is always to read less books, and I often fail at that. But the book that really shaped me the most, I know Gluttony in Action. Um, the book that shaped me the most was one I read last year, and I took six months to read it deliberately. I deliberately read it really slowly, and it's a book called Flight from Intimacy. And it's about Counterdependency. So you've undoubtedly heard about codependency, but not many people have heard about Counterdependency and I certainly hadn't until Bee was Chestnut, said that this is probably something I'm dealing with. And um, I went and found a book and there's not actually not that many books on it, and. This book talks about how ideally we'll experience a psychological birth at the age of three years, and that in that three years, there's a whole range of processes that we need to experience and complete in order to, um, have that psychological birth, which as you can expect, as imagine, which as you can imagine, most of us don't get to complete that psychological birth. And so of all those processes and the book outlines all of them. And so let's just say right now there's 30 of them. There's some that you don't complete that move towards codependency, and there are some you don't complete that moves toward Counterdependency and. I just found this fascinating because for me, I've always pushed against myself. It's been very hard to, um, move towards things unless something's pushing me from a different direction. And so things can be really confusing in my inner world because I never am moving in a single direction. There's always multiple directions and forces coming into play there, and so I found reading that. Truly fascinating to see the differences between CO and Counterdependency. And then just to understand all these processes that you needed to complete in those first three years, and then how to go back and complete them. Um, one of them, one of the ways that you complete one of the process, I can't, which, which one is you get to sleep naked. And I'm like, Oh, that's easy. I can do that. I can sleep that again. Um, and that was a great way to complete that process. There's another process where you have to get someone to hold. like, you're a baby. And I'm like, Oh, we'll have to work up to that one. I'm not ready for that one yet.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah,

Samantha Mackey:

Um,

Steph Barron Hall:

I can imagine.

Samantha Mackey:

yeah. But the book was really great at helping identify for me some of the things that happened in my childhood that needed to go back and to do attend to. So I think I had a lot of feeding trauma when I was a newborn, and so I went and saw a few different types of people to help release that trauma, sort of in sort of psychologically and spiritually in some sort of, you know, stuck inside my mouth, my relationship with food and things you. Being in that sort of space, and I wouldn't have known about some of these things or remembered some of these things in childhood unless I'd read this book. So I highly recommend this book. Highly recommend.

Steph Barron Hall:

Okay. What's the name? Flight from Intimacy. Okay, cool. We'll, I'll link that in the show notes. And then final one, what is a piece of advice that has really stuck with you?

Samantha Mackey:

Well, I. I think I said a piece of great advice earlier in the, in the podcast, but I cannot remember what it was. So, um, I'm gonna go with the one I wrote down, which I have to remind myself what it was now cuz my brain's fired. Oh. There's a great piece of advice that one of my therapists gave me at one time. And she was like, How you approach one thing in life is how you approach all things in life. So if you see yourself butting up against a brick wall in one aspect, look for that in other, other domains or other spaces and use that to try and find a pattern. When you can find that pattern, you can then have a sense of what is happening at a deeper level. So right now, the one I'm starting to notice is not wanting to disturb people. And it can be silly things like, Oh, I won't put the TV on at night because that might disturb people. Or I won't exercise in the morning because the noise might disturb people. Or I won't advertise really strongly of my business because I don't wanna disturb people and. Those things, you know, all from slightly different domains. And so how is, where is that desire to not disturb people coming from, you know, where is, what is that it? What's happening there? And so I find that piece of advice useful. Cause if I start to see one thing in my life, I'm like, right, let's try and see it elsewhere and try and connect the dots.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, that's such good advice. I've heard things like that before, but I really like that framing of it, of like looking for where is that blockage elsewhere? Because that one, it's more actionable, but two, it's not so like final. It's like we can problem solve this. Let's check it out instead of shaming, which is how I've typically heard a similar piece of advice described.

Samantha Mackey:

Oh yeah. See, and shame just doesn't help anyone. We can't move forward with shame. Shame keeps us stuck. I think a lot of the giving yourself permission is to release shame, is to release judgment and just look at something without those things and just see what's the truth behind it when we take away the feelings of guilt and shame and um, judgment.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah, absolutely. I really like that advice because it is so practical, like, and I think a lot of the things that you've shared today, you've shared a lot about. Uh, some really deep and vulnerable things, but also the practicality of it, of approaching it with a really practical lens. Um, and I just really appreciate that. So I'm really grateful that you were able to come on the podcast and share about the self preservation seven with us. I think that a lot of people will really resonate and also we'll start to see different sides of the seven than they would've otherwise been able.

Samantha Mackey:

Mm. Thank you. Thank you. Well, so much for having me and asking such wonderful questions. You definitely got me thinking, which I always appreciate. Um, but it's, it's sometimes scary to say these sides of our stories and so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do so.

Steph Barron Hall:

Yeah. Thanks so much.

Samantha Mackey:

Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify