How Your Enneagram Type Influences Your Money with Khara Croswaite Brindle, Financial Therapist, and Hannah DeGroot, LPC

This week on Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews co-authors Khara Croswaite Brindle, certified financial therapist, and Hannah DeGroot, LPC and Certified Enneagram Coach. Khara (SO3) and Hannah (SP3) share insights from their book, Your Enneagram and Money: Transforming Enneagram Edges into Financial Freedom. They delve into how each Enneagram type approaches financial beliefs and challenges, emphasizing that money is an emotional topic often overlooked in traditional financial approaches. The conversation highlights the importance of self-awareness regarding money beliefs and offers practical, type-specific tools for achieving financial wellness.

The book is out now! Your Enneagram and Money: Transforming Enneagram Edges into Financial Freedom: You can grab a copy of the book here.

Find the full show notes here: https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/how-your-enneagram-type-influences-your-money

🔗 Connect with Khara and Hannah!

📷 Khara’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kharacroswaite/

📷 Hannah’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/method.and.mind/

🔗 Connect with Steph!

💻 Website: https://ninetypes.co/

📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco/

🎥Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall

Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.

Transcript

Khara: 1:47

financial trauma or inherited trauma is a big part of that. So the whole financial therapy practice is like, where's the money healing? We usually tend to start there of like, what is the money belief that's dictating your behavior? Is it even yours to hold? And so sometimes it's that self-awareness of like, oh, that's mom or grandparent or first boss, and that's not mine to hold. And then that changes everything. But if there's no awareness, there's no change.

2:17

Hello and welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron Hall, and on today's episode, we are doing a deep dive into the Enneagram and money. Now this is somewhat of a hot topic and something I've actually been asked to speak on before. Personally, I don't typically do that because I'm not an expert in finances. However, I have paired up with other financial experts in the past, which has been really useful. And on today's episode I have a couple of people on who are really able to. Speak on both money and the n agram with expertise. So today I am joined by Kara Crossway Brindle. And Hannah Deru. Kara is the published author of eight books who is passionate about turning pain points into possibilities. This means she loves talking about topics others wish to avoid, like leadership, trauma, client loss and money shame. As a social Enneagram type three, wing two perfectionist, certified financial therapist and serial entrepreneur who specializes in working with helping professionals. She is the co-author of the book, your Enneagram and Money Transforming Enneagram Edges Into Financial Freedom. We also have Hannah DeGroot. Hannah is a licensed professional counselor, certified Enneagram coach, executive coach, and co-author of the book, your Enneagram and Money Transforming Enneagram Edges into Financial Freedom. In her practice, she uses the Enneagram to help individuals find passion, motivation, and fulfillment in their personal and professional lives. So on today's episode, we talk about their process working together because as you heard, Kara is a social three and Hannah is a self-preservation three. We talked a little bit about partnership. When you share a type, and this is something that I've seen in same type pairings in other areas, but I think that when you're working with somebody of the same type, often the thing that you'll need to work with the most and the thing that you'll notice the most is your differences when it comes to subtype, um, or even subtype sequence stacking. A lot of the time those things are more glaringly obvious than they would be in different type pairings. And because they're both threes. We talked about super practical things because I think that's one of the things that threes often gravitate toward and are really good at, is asking the question. So what, so we have all this information, so what do we do with it? Wanting to make things really practical. And that's what we did today. So we talked through all nine types and little tips about money and, and how to have more financial wellness in general. Both from their perspective. And then they also asked me to share a few things that I've learned, um, over the years just from things that I've noticed. So You can find links to purchase their book, which is called Your Enneagram and Money, the show notes, and you'll also find links to their Instagram pages and all their other info that you will need to connect with them and learn more from these two. Super helpful and practical Enneagram threes. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Hannah and Kara.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:28

Well, Kara and Hannah, welcome to the podcast.

Khara: 5:31

Thank

Hannah: 5:31

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 5:34

Yeah. Um, I'm excited to talk about this topic of the Enneagram and money because it comes up a lot and I'm not a financial expert. I've been asked to write on this, believe it or not, before, and I, I actually partnered with a different, like financial planner person on that and. That worked well because I'm like, I am not qualified to give any sort of insight. But the thing I will say where I think it pairs really nicely, and I'm excited to hear you both talk about this today, is our motivation comes out everywhere, right? So money is like such an emotional thing. I think. We don't think of it that way, but it is. So I'm really excited to chat about that.

Khara: 6:16

I love that you said emotional, because that's like the corner Soto financial therapist right now is like, money's emotional. We're shouting it from the rooftop, so. Happy to dive into that and have listeners get something from that. Feel validated.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 6:27

Yeah, for sure. Before we get there, let's start with an introduction to your background and you found the Enneagram.

Khara: 6:35

Yeah. Hannah, you wanna go first since you've been in this longer?

Hannah: 6:38

Yeah, sounds good. Um, well, yeah, first and foremost, I am a mom. I have two little boys who are four and two. I'm also a licensed professional counselor. I have a private practice in Denver, Colorado. I also work with a coaching group called Uncaged Clinician. Um, I do professional development coaching for them where we help healthcare entrepreneurs start their own private practices. So a lot of. Physical therapists, occupational therapists, nurses, um, who wanna get out of corporate healthcare and be on their own. Um, so we talk a lot about money with a lot of those clients. Um, and then I found the Enneagram through, um, a friend in college that was back in 20 12, 20 13. And, and then afterwards, kind of like immediately. Was fascinated by it, um, resonated with it and then kind of forgot about it honestly, and went through my graduate program for counseling and nobody talked about the Enneagram, which I think is such a disservice. And I think the reason being was that it's not empirically validated. And so a lot of the grad school programs don't see it as a legitimate therapeutic, um, modality or, you know, something to use in therapy. But I had some friends who were, um, who were using it. In their, in their studies. Um, and then, yeah, I kind of, during COVID, I went on this quest to better understand the Enneagram was just really, really interested in it again. Um, and that's when I found B iRANO, um, their podcast and understood the subtypes. And then that's what really got me fired up about the Enneagram. And now I use it in my practice.

Khara: 8:18

Um, in contrast, let's see, I think I found the Enneagram around the same time, 2012 ish. Let's see. I went to a training on it and the way they set up the training is they brought people in to interview on each of the types. And that was so powerful to have them just like, do an informal interview. Tell us about your life, tell us about your work. And when they got to the threes, he started off with all of his accolades. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is such a powerhouse person. And then they said, what about your personal relationships? He's like, oh, I've been divorced twice. And that hit me in the gut so hard. I was like, oh my God. I like, like em, like I embody this person and then oh my gosh, here's this like growth edge. And so I loved that kind of training of like, it really stuck, it felt very emotional just to watch these folks like share their story. Um, and I had been told, if you find your right Enneagram, it'll have this visceral reaction in your body. So I knew I was a three. It was very clear at that point'cause I was nauseous. I wanted to curl over and like hide when he told me and everyone in the room, this is my life. And so. I didn't do much with it. Um, I'm a mental health therapist also here in Colorado. So Hannah and I had connected on this book of Enneagram and Money and it really came back into play in my own burnout recovery. So that was 2018 where I got burnt out in the mental health profession and started looking at that three again of like, oh, is this like inevitable for threes when it comes to this type? And so started calling that out a little bit more, made it more casual with my colleagues. And lo and behold, I wrote a blog on Enneagram and Money, um, back in 2023. And everyone was like, oh my gosh, this is so relevant. And then I cold called Hannah and said, Hey, you don't know me, but do you wanna write a book on this?'cause I don't have the coaching when it comes to the Enneagram. I have just like this nerd out interest in it. And lo and behold, she said yes. And here we are talking about it and having this book be a bestseller now. So really excited to be here about it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 10:02

Yeah. That's so awesome. So two threes, um, working together. Tell me a bit about any aha moments. Like, it sounds like, Kara, for you it was immediate that you knew you were a three, but Hannah, was that clear for you?

Hannah: 10:17

Okay. So it's been, it's been such a process for me in finding my type and something that's kind of even like embarrassing in some ways because it was like, I was so involved with the Enneagram and was actually teaching the Enneagram and using it in my practice already, and. Still kind of behind the scenes having this. Uh, this unsettled feeling about what my type really was and Bea and Uranio were so, so helpful in helping me figure it out. But kind of like I said, back in college, even my friends immediately were like, you're a three. And I very much felt that. Um, and then I think, I think because of going to grad school, honestly, and being around so many people who were just a little bit. I, I don't know if there were a ton of threes in my counseling program, to be honest. Um, and so I think that, you know, identification piece of like, oh, well, maybe I'm more of a two or a six, or, you know, kind of identifying more with either Yeah, either of those types. Um, and then I, so when I first, I didn't go to be in Irania program right away. I. First went to a different program, I won't say the name here. Um, because my experience with them was they took a, they gave me an assessment, I took a test and it told me I was an eight. and. Yeah, it was one of those things that I was like, oh, that's interesting. I've always thought I was a heart type. I've always felt like a heart type always resonated with, you know, the type three or maybe if anything, like a two. Um, and they were like, oh, well that's interesting, but you're an eight. And there was just no conversation about it, which kind of set me on this path of, okay, well maybe I'm a body type and what does that look like? And there were definitely some things that resonated with the eight. But there was a lot, especially around the image piece that I was like, I wish that I didn't care about what people thought of me, but I, I just do. Um, and so I kind of knew I couldn't be an eight. And then Seth, I don't know if you remember this, but I actually came to you for a typing interview as well.'cause I was in that process of, I have no, I feel so lost because I was solid in my type and now I am not. And. Yeah, I was just really confused. And I think very rightfully so, at the time you were like, I'm hearing a lot of six in you. And then. Yeah, looked more into six and was like, yeah, I could totally see so much that resonates with the type six. And then I went to work with B iRANO and they helped me see that I was very much kind of stuck in my era to six. Um, at the time, because of C-O-V-I-D-I had had my first baby around that time. And then my self instinct I think was just off the charts. Um, and then I think also just. Family and, uh, personal background kind of set me up to be more in that arrow line. Um, and so it was super interesting working with them because they were like, you actually, I don't know if a lot of people who know the Enneagram know about this, but they were like, you actually need to do some ego restructuring. Um, you need to actually be more like a three. You need to identify more with the positive sides of the type three. Um, because I think for so long. I maybe had some negative sides, and again, like very much in my ear to six. And so kind of for the next six months after that process with them, did some ego restructuring. And yeah, have felt a lot more at home in my type, and so it feels great. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 13:34

Yeah. Um. I think that's such a good example of like one, it's, it's really not helpful for somebody to be like, well, the assessment says this, so you're just this. Um, you know, I, I've been through some of those trainings as well where they're like, our assessment is 97% accurate. And I, of course, I think this is a thing about sexual threes, I think we're a little bit more contrarian than some of the other threes. And so I was like, that's not my experience. And they're like, well, you're wrong. And I was like. Okay. I mean, I don't know, like, you know, but I kind of was like, I don't like that. But it's not helpful because it's confusing, especially if you are another referencing type. So two, three or nine, or actually six sixes are not necessarily other referencing, but they do get really confused, um, on their type. So I think. That's like a good indication for you where you're like, oh, maybe I am a three after all, because I was so convinced by them just telling me that. And even like other professionals don't always get it right, like obviously like I saw something different. Right. And I think that's the power of working with people who've worked with the Enneagram for so long and, um, the ego restructuring piece is so important. So, and then you resonate most with self pres subtype,

Hannah: 14:53

Yes, definitely.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 14:55

and that also makes a lot of sense. Like I see a lot of self pres threes overlapping with eights and sixes and things like that.

Hannah: 15:02

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that the thing that really clued me into, I, I just can't be a six and ironically, because this process was so confusing for me, but typically, especially in a work setting, I'm very. Decisive. Like I'm very easily able to make a decision and go for it. Um, and so that, that part of the six just didn't resonate at all. And then my coach with CP Enneagram helped me figure out, like all of the fear that I was feeling was, yeah, just tied to the self pre, it wasn't this general fear, um, or this general skepticism. It was really more of a worried about my kids' safety, worry about, you know, the health crisis that was happening in our country, that kind of thing.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 15:42

That makes so much sense, that context. And so Carrie, you resonate most with the social,

Khara: 15:48

I do. Yeah, actually, Hannah was the one to give me that language. So I had done the basic training with this other group, and it came back into my personal life as premarital counseling, where they had us do the Enneagram again. And then we talked about like our family system and how we thought they would look like, what their types might be. And that was really insightful on a personal level. Excuse me. And then I met with Hannah and she's like, so tell me what you know about subtypes. And I was like, zero. Nothing. I know nothing about subtypes. So she's like, listen to this podcast, read this book.'cause I had just enough information by PlayPlace say, to be dangerous, but not enough to like really go into the weeds with all of the subtypes. So once you reflected, here are the three subtypes. And she's like, I think just from how you're interacting with me on this first call, you're social. And I was like, well, tell me more about that. And she rattled off some things. It's like, oh yeah, that's pretty obvious. So unlike Hannah's journey, mine felt very straightforward and like a, there's no questioning. It was like, this is what it is, for better or worse, especially that visceral, nauseous reaction the first time it came around. And then when she gave me that context, I was like, okay, I feel validated, I feel seen, and I still know what I need to work on.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 16:54

Yeah. What? I love that. It's such a good example of how so often what we're we hear about type three is the social three. So like it makes a lot of sense and I actually was so excited to chat with you today because I very rarely come across social threes

Khara: 17:11

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:12

that are doing inner work.

Khara: 17:14

How

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:14

So if you're out there, you're a social three and you're doing inner work. Let me know. I wanna chat. But, um, even when I was writing my book, I had a really hard time finding a social three to interview because it's, you just get, you do everything so well. You're like, this is working. You know, it works until it doesn't. Right,

Khara: 17:33

Exactly. That's where my head just went of like, until it doesn't, and then you crash.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 17:37

Yep, yep. So what was it like with the two of you then working together on this book? You know, a lot of the time. We look to other types for balance, but you're the same type. So how did that work for you?

Khara: 17:52

I, I think one memory that stands out as Hannah said, like, okay, you're social. You're gonna wanna do all these interviews and all this marketing. You're gonna have a, a blast. And she's like, I don't wanna do all that. When we first came together, she set this like really healthy boundary of like, that's not who I am. I don't wanna be in front of screen. And doing all these like, marketing things. Um, obviously we were aligned on our goal, but it just felt like she was like, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna have that spotlight on me. Where I was like, yep, I've done this for years now, no problem. And so I appreciated her transparency of where her limit was so that we could kind of figure out how they wanted to coordinate on the book itself. But probably not surprising to listeners. Two, three is we knocked this book out in five months. Like we were like on it. We were writing, trying to write consistently every week, and it's not meant to be a hefty book that people can't finish. So it was meant to be bite-sized chunks that people could either go to the chapter they wanted or the whole thing cover to cover. And so overall, when we went to our publisher and said, Hey, we have this call to have it done by this time, they're like, oh, that, that's, that's pretty fast. Are you sure? And as someone who's written other books, I was like, yep, I'm sure this is my track record, four to five months to write a book. And Hannah's like, okay. So she had to trust me in that.'cause this is her first published book. And so I think that dynamic really played out of like, yes, we're both threes we're both go getters. And I was like, I'll be the one to do some of the marketing and social stuff and kind of take that lead from that experienced author place. Whereas Hannah, this is the first time author experience

Hannah: 19:14

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:15

can be harder than the writing.

Hannah: 19:16

Yes. Yeah. And it just as a self risk three, it just feels so weird. Like, I know it's really normal to, like, people have their own books and their background on calls and like that part feels so uncomfortable for me. So it's been good, um, to more get outta my comfort zone. But yeah, like Kara said, I think that's probably the biggest. Differentiator between the two of us. Um, yeah, and I think it comes through in our writing too. Like we are, we get to the point we're very practical. It's, we want you to take action on, like, don't just learn about what, how your relationship with money is. Go do something about it. Um, and so I think it really comes through in our book just how we wrote as threes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 19:56

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm curious, we talked about this a little bit at the top of the show, but also I want to dig a little bit deeper and probably hearing from you, Kara, how does Enneagram complement financial therapy in helping people transform their money mindset? Because it feels like a really natural fit. But you have all this expertise and I wanna know more about from your perspective.

Khara: 20:20

Yeah, so there's about 120 certified financial therapists in the US and so I'm one of those folks, and I started that journey and the pandemic burned out for the second time in my mental health career of like, oh, cool, here we go again. And so I was looking for something different. And so when I went into my training to be a financial therapist, they kept saying, money is emotional. Money is emotional. Like it's 90% emotion, 10% logic. This is why people can't move forward with their other financial professionals, that it's not as simple as follow a budget, that it's not as simple as invest or whatever that may look like depending on the professional they're working with. And so I started to realize that money was relational and I was like, it's makes so much sense that we would look at the Enneagram to inform us on our spending, saving, earning potential. From that relational lens. I mean, I'm someone who loves attachment theory and things like that. So this all kind of blended together to make that possible. And as soon as I started describing it that way, people were like, yeah, I have a relationship with my money. It might be a toxic relationship with my money, or an avoidant relationship, or an anxious relationship, but that language, like you said, was already there. We just had to put the Enneagram lens to it. And now at the time of this recording, we have other folks starting to write books that look very similar to our book because I think people want this information. So it's really interesting in like the timing of like wrote the blog that took off, came to Hannah, wrote the book. I was like, huh. Now everyone wants to know about it, including some of those news channels who are putting out articles themselves.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 21:43

Yeah. What are some of the common money challenges that you are then able to highlight? Like is it based on Enneagram type? Is it based on money, relationship, or background?

Khara: 21:56

Yeah, so the book is kind of structured in two ways. Part one looks at the Enneagram and the assumption is the reader knows something about the Enneagram to pick up this book.'cause we're like, we don't need to rewrite the wonderful books out there about what is the Enneagram. And so the first part of the book is taking all. All nine types and the subtype saying, here are some common beliefs about money. And so we normalized from a bunch of interviews that we did with under earners in our networks and said, tell us what you look like with your money. What does it look like to spend your money? What's it look like to save your money? Do you feel like you're earning enough money? And so our audience truly are under earners, which tend to be more women focused. Um, and were like, tell us what's going on there. So that informed our chapters on all nine types. And then part two of the book is, how do you save your money from your Enneagram? Edges, as I call them. Um, how do you spend your money with that in mind? And then how do you earn more money? So the last three chapters are very much the financial therapy with the skills and tools that I teach people every day.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 22:52

Did you incorporate the subtypes?

Hannah: 22:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it. It took a lot of like digging and thinking and all of that, but I just, as we were talking about the book originally, we talked about having nine chapters of on the Enneagram, and I just kept telling Kara, I just don't think I can do it. I, I, because the counter types and because of the subtypes, you can't, I mean, we could generalize to a certain extent about, you know, our core motivation and core fear and things like that. Um, but really when you're thinking about how specific the subtypes. Uh, or the instincts influence, um, the types. I just couldn't leave them out. Um, because I don't know, like for, um. I'm trying to think, like for example, like the Type six is gonna be really, wanna be really responsible with their money and might be really risk averse, but then the sexual subtype of the six, they might be willing to take more risks and they might actually, um, have more trouble saving because of that. And I just think that's lost if when you're just generalizing, you know, by Enneagram type instead of by subtypes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 23:56

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear a brief rundown of how each type might approach their relationship with money. Um, and if you're, you're willing to share a practical tip, that would be great as well. And if you want to as well speak to any of those like little differences,'cause I do think that's really important. And I think especially with money, it feels really clear.'cause I like look at myself versus somebody who's self press dominant. It's very, very different. Um, so I'd love to hear more about that.

Hannah: 24:26

Yeah, for sure. Um, and yeah, just like I said, these are generalizations, so if we don't cover all the subtypes, that's why we have the book. Um, and so yeah, if you, if you don't resonate with this right away, it might just be because, um, your instinct is making you kind of show up a little bit differently or of course, like we all have different. Financial trauma and financial histories. And so that's gonna influence all of this as well. But just as a, as a general, we'll start with eights as we do. Um, and so we all know that eights can be very controlling. Um, they like to, um, do things their way. They like to, um, they don't wanna ever feel vulnerable or out of control in that way. And so that's gonna translate to their relationship with money as well. Um, and so the, the belief that Eights have about their money is that. They'll do what they want with their money. Um, and I think that can kind of set them up to, um, to be financial gatekeepers to use Kara's term. Um, where they are really protective about the way that they wanna do it, and they're not as willing to coordinate with a partner or ask for help when it comes to money. Um, they might feel. Really excited when they have a lot of money, but they, again, with that era to five, they might feel really avoidant, um, if they don't have a lot of money, um, which can obviously influence how yeah, how they relate to it. Um, yeah. Kara, do you have anything else that you wanna add?

Khara: 25:49

Yeah, I was just thinking when we did our interviews, eights were one of the first people to slide into our inbox when we made the call to action of, Hey, who wants to talk to us about their money? And we had aches like, yep, let's come in here and talk about it. Especially if they're in a place of feeling like they had money. I think they were happy and, and, um, joyful to share that. So the exercise we named in the book, one of many, but I think a, a theme for eights throughout was how do you relinquish some of your control? How do you like ease up a little bit like as a three, I'm also a control freak, so I'm not saying like go buck wild and like release it all and surrender. I think that would cause a lot of people some panic. Um, but the exercise I wanna call out is money as a partner. So we actually look at like the EFCT conflict cycle from a couples. So it's like a, uh. Infinity symbol for those folks of thoughts, feelings, behaviors, impact a response in the partner, right? So if money is the partner, when you have a thought about money, how does money then show up in your life? It's a little bit of like mindset shift there. Um, but then also with true partners, like people, how do you invite them in to some of your money work? Are they doing a money meeting with you? Are you asking them for input on some money decisions? So we had a lot of that throughout the book for eight. So like, how do you invite people in, whether it's a partner or intimate partner, spouse. Or a professional coming in and helping advise you on your money, which feels very different than that. Control. Control where they might be initially.

Hannah: 27:07

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:08

Yeah, absolutely. Something I've seen.

Hannah: 27:11

Yeah, I wanted to ask you two, Steph, like please, I would love to hear your thoughts on this too as an Enneagram expert, if you have any additional thoughts as we're talking about it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:18

I don't, I don't work specifically with money, but it does come up a lot with eights. And I, um, in my book, I, so for my book I did the same thing.'cause I was like, I have to have real people, you know, uh, talking about this. And I worked, I, I interviewed a guy who was a therapist, um, and we talked a lot about how therapists don't get any training, but it's running a business and you have to know how to do that. And he was a self press eight. And so he was so like. Looking at his, um, projected revenue and expenses like multiple times per week, and that was just how he dealt with it. And that is something I see a lot with

Hannah: 27:55

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 27:55

Yeah.

Hannah: 27:57

Um, okay, so nines, um, we know that nines don't love conflict and money can feel like conflict, especially in relationships. Like we could have conflict with our own relationship with money, but then in the context of a partnership, it's one of the, the main things that couples fight about, right? Um, and so I think for a lot of nines it's easier not to talk about money. Um, and so their belief. Is that money upsets people so we don't have to talk about it. Um, we don't have to go there. And so I think, and then also because of the passion of the nine, I think it sets them up to maybe not know what they need or what they really want, um, in their relationship with money. And so it just feels easier to avoid it altogether. Um, I think they can feel really stressed or frustrated. By money. Um, they can struggle to move on big purchases either because yeah, they don't know what the right decision is or because, um, it feels like a big commitment that can feel really daunting. Um, I think also we see this, um, in the therapy world. Nines have a hard time charging what they're worth. Um, and I think that especially like for no-show fees and for if people owe them money, like they're not. It, they struggle. It, it takes real effort to enforce those boundaries, um, and to go and to ask and, and tell somebody, Hey, you owe me money.

Khara: 29:22

Yeah, so the exercise, no surprise for them is loud budgeting, which is a term that came out I think early January, 2024. Um, and by concept it's setting a boundary of like, I will pay for this, or, no, I won't pay for that. This isn't a priority. So in our, our workbook on this topic, we were like, okay, what are the sentences you can like draft right now to sound like you are feeling self-assured so you can feel more confident when you deliver that? Can you anticipate a scenario like going out to eat where someone's like, let's split the bill, but they had a drink and dessert and you didn't, and like, are you okay with that? So it aligns to the value-based spending that's throughout the book of like what's valuable to you. Um, but also encourages them to practice ahead of time. How do I have a voice in this? How do I say, no, thank you. This isn't a priority. Versus yes, I'm all in because they tend to blend so much with the people around them that they don't have a voice. So this is a big growth edge for them.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:13

Yeah, for sure. The only other thing I've seen that I would add is, um, when nines spend a lot on things that give them comfort,

Hannah: 30:22

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:23

um, I've seen that a lot

Hannah: 30:25

Yes, we talk about that with the self Pres nine specifically.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:28

Yeah,

Hannah: 30:29

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 30:29

for sure. what about once.

Hannah: 30:32

Um, well this won't come as a shock, but ones believe that there's a right way to spend money or to save money. Um, they might have unrealistic expectations for themselves in regards to money. I think it's especially hard since we wrote our book for under earners for um, ones who are under earners because it might mean that they have some debt. And I think for ones there's a lot of guilt and shame. Um. Around debt. I think for a lot of people it can, but I think specifically for ones, um, they might, yeah, I think their inner critic can come out a lot in their relationship with money. Um, and then, yeah, specifically for the, the social. Um, or the sexual subtype, sorry. I think for the self present and the social subtype, it's a lot more about like, I need to figure out my relationship with money. Whereas the sexual subtype with, with ones might be more focused on, um, how other people are spending money, especially if they're in a partnership. Um, or we talk about this in the book, that they might not really take ownership of the fact that they're in the money situation that they're in. Um, that that can be a real blind spot.

Khara: 31:41

Mm-hmm. So the exercise for them is actually a really popular exercise I do for every client, regardless if there are any cramp type. Um, but it's a word association to help look at that black and white thinking. That's so common for ones to be like, it's this or this. There's the right way, there's the wrong way. And so word association for folks that are listeners who are like, I don't know what you're talking about. It's just what comes to mind when I say one word. And so in the financial therapy lens, it might be a word like savings, debt, credit card, wealth, and watch them have all sorts of narratives and judgment show up that really inform us. How to help them, how to help them grow from maybe this black and white thinking that's holding them back to a different place, whether that's mindset or behavioral changes with their money. Uh, and so ones really shine when I do this exercise'cause they're like, well I definitely have thoughts and they're very much opposites of each other. Uh, which then when we point that out, that leads to some self-awareness of what do you wanna do with this information now that you're aware that you have these really charged beliefs about money?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 32:39

Yeah, I could imagine ones having a hard time recognizing the emotional part of it because they're like, it's just numbers. Like it should be black and white. I shouldn't be feeling so much about this. And so they don't allow themselves to explore that.

Khara: 32:53

That's right. Yep. Lots of shoulds.

Hannah: 32:55

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 32:56

of shoulds. How about twos?

Hannah: 33:00

Yeah, so for twos, um, they believe that they must give their time or money. So it doesn't always have to be, I'm donating to all of these organizations, or I'm paying for meals for everybody. Although it can look like that sometimes. But I think for a lot of twos, especially twos who are under earners, it's more of this idea of noble poverty, which is a financial therapy term. Um, meaning if I, um, sacrifice. For if I sacrifice money, then I, I kind of feel like a pride in that. Um, and I, I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. And so yeah, I think that shows up a lot for, for especially the social too in the, in the Noble poverty, um, piece. Um, I think again, talking about therapists, since that's what we are, and we work with a lot of therapists, I think twos find it really hard to charge people to charge what they're worth. I think, um, they. Are more comfortable charging insurance or an entity over charging a person that feels a lot safer and less personal. Um, they might struggle, um, to raise their rates, things like that.

Khara: 34:05

Yeah, and so for our twos that we interviewed, they kept checking in, is this okay? Is this what you wanted? It was like very clear. There were a two even in how they showed up when we interviewed them online. And so the exercise for them is looking at true attachment styles with money to like have the language of secure attachment, anxious or avoidant attachment. And we have some reflection questions for them to potentially journal on of like, if money could respond to you and reassure you, what could it say? Right? So like really giving it that personification of like, if this was a person or a true relationship, how would this benefit you? Coming from anxious attachment, it's gonna look really different than the securely attached person saying Money is truly my partner and I'm feeling secure in that. The anxious is gonna look more like, um, Dr. Stan Tonkin's image of like an ocean wave crashing over us and then receding. And so that itself can be really disruptive to the, the Enneagram two's nervous system of like, oh my gosh, I'm like flooded, and then I'm receding. And that itself can be pretty impactful to say the least.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:02

Yeah, I like this concept of money as like a relationship or like a partner, and that feels like a distinctly heart type way, like lens of looking at it, but it also feels very practical.

Hannah: 35:15

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 35:16

think that it's normal? Like, like have you encountered that elsewhere, or was it just the two of you were like, no, it feels like a relationship.

Khara: 35:24

Yeah, I mean in the financial therapy world, we have a couple colleagues that really have spoken to like attachments specifically, and they're like neuroscience and doing all the things with that. And so, um, you know, this is not new to me because I've worked with them and, and actually call them out and represent them in the book of like, here's someone else doing this awesome work, and here's his quiz on attachment styles with money. Um, so I think that's part of it. I think with money and relationships, I don't think that, like you said, that's new. It's just having new language for it or like calling back language that was out there for a while, maybe got kind of put back on the back burner and now is coming back into the fold. And as Jen Cis narrow, she has a book, you're a Badass at Making Money, she also talks about money as if it was an entity. Like she has people write Letters to money, which is echoed in one of our exercises here shortly of like, let's personify it, let's make it. A, a partner in this and maybe it's an abusive partner, frankly at first, but like there are things we can do to transform that over time, which is truly the embodiment of financial therapy is like progress. We make progress.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 36:26

Right. Yeah. So good, so practical. Okay. What about threes?

Hannah: 36:31

Yeah, threes. Um, the belief that a lot of threes have when they approach money is they money equals success. Um, I think a lot of threes believe that their self-worth is somehow tied into their net worth, um, which can feel really challenging. I think a lot of threes. Money's important for threes just across the board. No matter what subtype you are, either you are worried that you don't have enough all the time or you want more of it, um, or you're just, you're thinking about it whether you kind of want to or not. Um, I think that especially for self pres threes, there is that idea that there's never enough money, um, and that that is like, so it shows up in my relationship with my husband, um, that is. My approach is just, yeah, this scarcity mindset. And some of it is kind of, um, experiences that I've had growing up, but a lot of it comes from the self pre, um, and, and feeling like I, yeah, need to stockpile work harder, even though like all from all accounts, um, we're okay. Um, and then I think some threes can see debt specifically as a failure and that can feel really shame inducing.

Khara: 37:43

Mm-hmm. As a social three, absolutely I can, I can confirm that. Um, for the exercise, it's warning signs with money, which from someone who's come from professional burnout, one and a half times I couldn't help myself. I be like, what's the actual warning sign that things are going downhill? So we look at like, what are the triggers? What's the internal stuff that's happening? How is your relationship shifting? Right? So even for a three saying, Hey, I've got all these accolades. I've done all this. Successful things in my business, the relationships are usually what suffer first, because we're in workaholic mode, at least I was at one point. Um, so warning signs, we just have like a little exercise for them to look at, okay, what does this look like relationally, spiritually, what does it look like mentally when it comes to my focus? Um, and it gives them just, again, some more language to say, do I, am I even self-aware enough to know that things are landsliding in a direction I don't wanna go? And from there there's pointed questions at the end of like. What do you want from others, which feels vulnerable for a three who's like, oh, I'm not doing well, and now I have to lean on relationships that maybe have felt neglected up until this point. Um, so lots of growth edges in that exercise for threes that were inspired by my own burnout recovery, but also from that financial lens, I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 38:53

Yeah, for sure. That makes a lot of sense. And I think it's very classic three to have these cycles of burnout. Um, I've done it, you know, you've done it. We've all done it. but I think what's really interesting is one thing that I tell people about figuring out their subtype is looking at the evidence. How does it show up in your life? So this is just like a quick little story about myself, but when I was trying to figure out my subtype, I had a really hard time, um, because everything I had ever read about, like the sexual subtype was like, oh, you just wanna look like a Barbie. You wanna get all this plastic surgery or whatever. That's totally fine for other people. But, um, the way that I was raised, like contextually, there was a different. Image of what was like natural beauty kind of thing. Um, and so I didn't, I really didn't resonate with this Barbie concept

Hannah: 39:45

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 39:45

and, I then I started looking at my money. I was like, what do I spend money on? Yeah, maybe I'm not, you know, dressing like a Barbie. Maybe I'm not wearing heels every day. Especially not after the pandemic, but like looking at, oh, where do I spend money? Okay. Ulta, Sephora, um, like haircare, like all of these beauty products. And I was like, okay, there, it's right. Like that's a really good indication. And it like, totally told on me, um, of like what I valued over a lot of different things. Um, and I thought that was really interesting. Um, and like a different lens on how to find your subtype maybe?

Hannah: 40:26

That's awesome.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 40:27

Yeah. Um, okay. How about type four?

Hannah: 40:30

Yeah. So, um, fours, fours is another type where the subtypes are gonna make. People show up differently in their relationship with money. So the, the belief for four was hard to be super specific about, but, they believe that money is like, bad or corrupt. Um, like it's, it somehow makes you inauthentic. Um, but then, and at the same time, they also. Or a little envious of people who have more money and who seem really happy, and so it feels like something's missing. Um, and so, yeah, I think that depending on the subtype, um, they can either feel like, yeah, they don't have enough money and others do. Um, I think some floors are really, really specific about how they spend their money. Um, and they're willing to spend a lot of money on things if it's really important to them. Um. Obviously they wanna feel really understood, um, in their money choices. So I think that that can create some conflict with a partner if, um, the partner doesn't understand, or family even for that matter. Um, and then force have a lot of feelings about money in general. I think just they're aware of all of their feelings, the anxiety, the stress, the excitement about it, the, um, any like grief or shame that comes up over it. So I think that that makes it. Difficult for fours to interact with money because it's, there's so much there.

Khara: 41:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even our interviews with the fours, as Hannah alluded to, there was like two different camps of fours. Like it was just like, wait, there is no generalized. One way to look at money. Uh, we had some people who were like, I wanna buy things that are of value and or unique and personalized. And then there are people who are like, I wanna get rid of this money as fast as possible subconsciously.'cause I don't wanna hold onto it because it's corrupt. And so the exercise that we already kind of left a breadcrumb around was the steer money letter. So we take it a step further than Jen Sisnero, which is her letter writing exercise is like. up with it. We have that aspect, but we also name like, what if it's abusive? What if it's an anxious attachment? What if it's avoidant attachment? And so not just are we writing a letter to money, maybe getting out all of those charged emotions. The second part of our exercise is what will money say back to you? How will they write back? Will they apologize saying, I thought I was being helpful, but now I realize I was being hurtful. Will they continue to be abusive? I mean, I think that for therapists, we nerd out over that of like, let's see, like what is your internal narrative going to say? The money is gonna respond. How are they gonna respond? Um, and so far as. As people, well, we have a lot of force in in therapy. A lot of people who are therapists are forced. Um, I think that they'll love this exercise because it feels so deep. It's not surface level, it's not everything's fine. It's like, no, let's great. Go straight at the charged emotion and allow it to have a space. So all the exercise that we've named so far are best done handwritten, so that there is that brain body connection to the emotion. And so far it's been fascinating to see what people are saying that they wanna write about and how money responds.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:26

Yeah, so interesting. Um, yeah, I, the only thing I have to add is like, I've seen forests who do have a lot of resources and they do have like that good, you know, nest egg still feeling like, well, if only I were,

Hannah: 43:42

Mm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:43

you know, wealthier than I would do this. And not always looking at like, oh, actually you could do that if you want to, you know? Um, but the, the old relationship still exists. Yeah.

Hannah: 43:57

absolutely.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 43:59

Those old narratives though, they're so sticky. I think that's true for all of us.

Hannah: 44:02

Yes.

Khara: 44:04

We do talk about that pretty blatantly in the book, as we call them, money, beliefs, and some of those beliefs you wanna shed or get rid of, of like, these aren't mine to hold. But as Hannah named earlier, like financial trauma or inherited trauma is a big part of that. So the whole financial therapy practice is like, where's the money healing? We usually tend to start there of like, what is the money belief that's dictating your behavior? Is it even yours to hold? And so sometimes it's that self-awareness of like, oh, that's mom or grandparent or first boss, and that's not mine to hold. And then that changes everything. But if there's no awareness, there's no change.

Hannah: 44:35

Mm-hmm. And that's where the relationship piece, like I think we have to look at it as a relationship because all of our, I mean, I'm sure we can all think back and think of early experiences that we had with money, and that's kind of the start of that relationship. And then it continues and it might, you might even take it on. Your parents' relationship with money or how they related to money. And so, yeah, like Kara was saying, it takes a while to undo, um, or to rewire some of those beliefs because that relationship has been in your life for however long you've been alive and aware.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 45:05

Yeah, for sure. Okay. Tell us about fives.

Hannah: 45:08

Yeah. Okay. So, um, the belief that we said for, for fives, or that we heard from fives is that they need to master money. They want to, um. Um, they want to be really, obviously, competent with it. Um, they don't wanna ask a lot of people for help. It almost feels like this thing that, like, I have to figure this out, but I don't want anyone else to be a part of this process. Um, and so they can isolate themselves in their relationship with money. And then the scarcity piece is really interesting with fives because. A lot of them, uh, worry that they don't have enough money as one of those resources that always can feel scarce, like time, money, energy, things like that for fives. Um, so money's included in that, but at the same time, there's also this belief for some fives that, but I don't really need much either. Um, and so it's not necessarily a noble poverty, uh, influence, but it's this idea of. I, I can get by with nothing. And that's kind of how the scarcity shows up for them. Um, and so it's really, yeah. It's interesting to talk with fives about money.

Khara: 46:11

Yeah, and so our exercise is the money barometer for fives, which is asking them to think about money that lands on their account with no purpose and. Go up from there. So it might be like$500 that is gifted to you, no strings attached, no purpose, and watch what shows up for them. And there's always a natural place where people toggle between, this is fun money. Hooray. I can do what I want with it to, oh my gosh, I have to be really responsible or like adulting with my money. And so regardless of Enneagram type, when I provide this exercise to clients, there's a place somewhere in the numbers that changes from. Responsibility to fund or vice versa. And so fives, because they're moving between scarcity and I am well resourced, or I am mastering money, I think this shows up really nicely for them of like, huh, what's going on there? Are you aware of why that number changed for you? Um, what it brought up for you of like scarcity versus abundance or I have plenty of money versus, Nope, there's still not enough. And so that's one exercise that fits really well for that type.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:09

Yeah. I mean, that, that resonates for me too. Um, the only thing I've seen with fives is, the, the idea that money's a social construct and so it's like meaningless and they break it down into disparate parts. And you know, Hannah, like what you were, you were saying, it's like, well, nobody actually needs money because it's actually all made up anyway. Becomes

Hannah: 47:28

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:29

like a real black hole.

Hannah: 47:31

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 47:32

Yeah. So sixes.

Hannah: 47:34

Sixes. Yeah. So yeah, this is one where I think sixes get really stereotyped into, like money is just anxiety. Um, and I think it's, it's so much more than that for sixes. Um, I think they feel a great responsibility and a pressure, um, when it comes to money, and obviously it is related to. Security in our world. Um, and so I think for them it can be this means of, okay, if I have enough, um, that I'll feel secure. I think a lot of sixes on a positive side are like, they're thinking about the future and they are thinking about investments and things like that. Um, but it's hard or it's difficult for under earners specifically. Um, because. They also are more likely to stay in a job if it is secure. And so even though they're not making enough money, it's not about the money that's giving them security, it's the job security. And so then they end up setting themselves up for, um. Yeah, to not be as successful financially, which can be really difficult. And then again, like I mentioned earlier, I think specifically with the sexual subtype, um, they can be more risk-taking when it comes to money. Um, and so they might have a harder time saving and hanging on to money. They might be a little bit more impulsive with their decisions about money versus the self pre very much the self pre and then the social who are gonna be, wanna be really responsible, um, or might, might even, um, hesitate to make purchases.

Khara: 48:59

Oh, I'm married to a self pre six, so every time Hannah talks about sixes, I'm like, Ugh, this is my life. Um, and so because we were focused on under earners, of course, if people work for someone else, this might show up as like security and stability from like a 401k of like, oh, that's being invested in, or they're matching it. So this is why I'm staying in a job that I hate. Which is my spouse. Um, but if you work for yourself, the tool that we named Four Sixes is a paid time off account, A PTO account of like, Hey, if we all work for ourselves, whether we're, um, a therapist or somebody who's a small business owner. It feels kind of radical to be like, why didn't I think of this sooner of, oh, I should pay myself to take time off so I cannot burn out so I can have a healthy work life balance so I can feel secure of like if I got sick for a month, I'm covered. So for sixes, this really helps them feel safe of like, I have this money set aside just in case something hits the fan, whether it's me, my child, whoever is sick, that we can somehow have money funneled back into the account that's lost. And so. As a financial therapist and mental health therapist, this was life changing for me. I'm not a six, I'm obviously a three from our conversation, but I think for anyone listening, a paid time off account is a big deal if you work for yourself.'cause it gives you that self permission to take time off for lots of reasons I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 50:15

Yeah, absolutely. That's such a good idea. Um, and I, so I work a lot with corporate and this is something I see where I see a lot of people who are high earners. They have been promoted over and over and over, and a lot of the time those people have moved companies a lot. And I see a lot of sixes who just, it's like kind of the old way of working, right? Where you get into a company and you're in that company your entire life and you get the retirement watch and then you go off and you know, and, and that's just not how it works anymore. You're not as rewarded for the quote unquote loyalty, but the sixes are. Very much like better the devil, you know, than the one you don't concept. Um, so I think that that will really resonate with a lot of sixes. Okay, finally, last but not least, sevens.

Hannah: 51:05

Yeah, sevens, um, so their belief with money is that money can make you really happy, or like, when I spend money, I can be really happy and experience freedom with that. Um, they, I. I think are more inclined to see the positive sides of money. So they might not even recognize from the beginning that they, that there is any sort of like fear or anxiety or any of that. Maybe the self pre a little bit more, um, with money, um, they see money as a means to experience more. And I think that they can be very, even though they're very future thinking in a lot of ways, I think when it comes to money, specifically the instant gratification or like the immediate excitement and um, and freedom that comes with making money choices in the here and now. I. Sometimes is more of a priority than thinking about the future when it comes to money and saving, um, and subtype differentiator here. I think with the self pre seven, they are gonna be a lot more concerned about all of that. I, it's, it's funny, one of my really good friends is a self pre seven and she, I've never met anybody who loves a, a deal more than. This person. I mean, yeah, it's really fun to talk about. Um, and so I think, I think the self pre is going to be more, um, intentional and aware of money purchases where maybe the other two, um, yeah, just see it as a means to, to experience more. I.

Khara: 52:29

Mm-hmm. So the tool for sevens gives them a little bit more structure with the assumption that the majority are struggling to see the future or plan for the future. That they'd much rather spend money in the here and now. And so we call it the fill your bucket funds. And it comes from this values based spending lens of like, people spend money on what's important to them, which Stephanie, you named earlier of like, well, if it's important then we're gonna buy it. Um, and so it's a, it's a framework of. And this is like the accounting language, right? But like you have your income coming in minus your expenses and whatever's left over. Do you then have the green light to spend as you wish? Right? So the structure for a seven is I have to know what's coming in and I have to know my expenses before I get the green light to do anything with this extra money. If there's nothing left over month to month and we're not spending that money'cause it's already allocated for the things that. Aren't they exciting to a seven? Um, so it gives people outside of Enneagram sevens, it gives people a framework in general, but I think for sevens, it anchors them in a little bit, grounds them a little bit to be like, do I even have money left over to put towards something that brings me joy? And if not, are there other ways to have that, like dopamine hit, if you will? That's not spending, if there's not money that month.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 53:36

Yeah, that's so good and so helpful in that discipline can be so challenging because self-imposed limitations are not fun. But I've also seen so many sevens who like, they derive their sense of freedom, and I think they're more so the self pre sevens, but they derive a sense of freedom from. The nest egg, right? So it's like in the here and now, I'm just gonna pinch pennies and, and maybe sometimes more pinch, pennies for family, more so than themselves perhaps. Um, but so that they can spend later. Um, but they love to wheel and deal.

Hannah: 54:13

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:16

It's very interesting to go to a car dealership with a self. Press seven.

Hannah: 54:20

Yes. It's so nice to have a friend who's a self press seven.'cause I, I mean, I love deals too, as a self press type, but not to the extent that my friend does. And so I'm always like, Hey, is this a good price? Or like on Facebook marketplace? Well, what's a good price for this? And she's always right. She's just, no one knows the marketplace better than this girl.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 54:37

Yep. Yep. So do you have any advice for people who are just beginning, maybe they listen to all that and they're like, wow. I mean, that was a lot. How do I even start with my relationship with money?

Khara: 54:50

Yeah. Hannah, you wanna go first?

Hannah: 54:51

Yeah, I mean my biggest piece of advice is just don't avoid it. I think a lot of us can be very avoidant for whatever. Obviously we've listed off a lot of reasons here, um, that people might struggle with the relationship with money, but, I always tell people in my therapy office, I want you to feel uncomfortable, but I never want you to feel unsafe. Um, and so this idea of getting really uncomfortable with your relationship with money and knowing that that's leading you towards growth, um, but if it feels unsafe, bring someone else in, get other resources. There's a lot out there. Um, so yeah, improve your own relationship with money before you even try to improve it in your marriage or in your partnership or whatever.

Khara: 55:28

Yeah, I love that. Like, doing yourself work first. Um, I think to piggyback off what Hannah just said, of like the resources, the one thing I'm cautioning everyone in my financial therapy hat when I'm wearing that one, is. Um, to avoid extremes when it comes to save it all, spend it all right, like neither of those extremes is healthy. We want something in the middle. And so when it comes to the resources being mindful or at least curious of like where do they stand? If they're saying Only save only save only save. It's probably not a resource if financial therapist is gonna subscribe to, if I'm being honest.'cause that's not how we show up in our work. And so. Because there are so many influencers and financial resources out there, I encourage any listeners to just like come at them with curiosity of like, what agenda do they have? What are they trying to sell you versus your own personal growth of like choice in the matter. If anyone's on the extreme of spend or save, I would say caution. Caution on those ones.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:21

Yeah, that's good advice. The balance is so important. Um, where can people connect with you and find your book?

Khara: 56:28

Yeah, I mean it's, it's everywhere. Books are sold as lots of authors like to say. Um, of course we love reviews, so if people do get a chance to check out the book and it was meaningful to them, we'd love to see reviews on Good Reads or Amazon or any of those places. Um, and then Hannah and I are both on Instagram. That's where we're tagging most of our book stuff'cause we're on a little book tour here in Colorado right now at the time of this recording. So. We'd love to meet people in person sometime in the future if they are happen to be in our state. But if not, reach out.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:54

Cool.

Hannah: 56:55

Yeah, and on Instagram, I'm at Method in Mind. That's the name of my business.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 56:59

Cool. I will tag you both in the show notes

Hannah: 57:03

Thank you.

Khara: 57:04

Thank

Stephanie Barron Hall: 57:04

of course the book as well. Um, I know a lot of people will be really excited to read it after listening to you talk about it. Um, I have two last questions that I ask everyone. So the first is, tell me about a book that has really inspired, shaped, or refreshed you in the last year.

Hannah: 57:22

Yeah. Um, I actually have a couple, it's hard to narrow down to one, but first is, um, a book called Habits of the Household by Justin Whittell Early, um, and it's all about how like spiritual disciplines can shape how you parent, how, um, yeah, just how you live your life. I think the Enneagram is such a good example of. We can do a lot without intention. And so this book has just taught me to be more intentional about the way that I approach dinners with my family and, and things like that. Um, so it's been great. And then my other one, this is so self pre, but there's a book called What to Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking by Caroline Chambers. And it has changed my cooking game with my family just as, yeah, my husband and I both have multiple businesses and, um, with a two and a 4-year-old, it's, it's just sometimes the last thing that I'm thinking about. So, um, for anybody who is looking for some inspiration in that area, she is a busy mom and she just gets it.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 58:15

Cool. Love that.

Khara: 58:17

Yeah, for me there's a book called Circle of Influence that was really a powerful like leadership business side of me that was like, oh, I really like this idea. Um, his concept is like. When you die, there'll be 80,000 people in this metaphorical arena. What response do you want them to have as you walk into it? Do you want them to be cheering you on going, oh my gosh, we made such an impact, or do you want them booing you from the stadium? So it makes me think of Brene Brown, of like who's in, who's in the arena with you. Um, but just really interesting framework there of like, we don't really even realize how much we impact other people. So of course as a social three, that gives me some comfort of like, oh, what I'm doing makes a difference.'cause I'm a three wing too, so I still have that therapist. Uh, brain. And so that's one of them. But the one of course that your Ennea, Enneagram enthusiast will love is the path between us. I got that for Christmas and I was like, this is amazing. I feel like this is a roadmap to connect with anyone on their Enneagram type. And it literally had like a playbook in the end, at the end of each chapter of like, if you're a three, this is what you need. If you are connected to a three, this is what they need. And I thought that was just genius how she set that up.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 59:20

Yeah. Cool. Love it. Okay, so two great books from both of you. Um, finally tell me a piece of advice that has really stuck with you.

Hannah: 59:30

Yeah. Carrie, go first.

Khara: 59:32

Yeah, I mean, just from the burnout lens that I keep talking about apparently today, that's on my mind. Um, is the question, is this busyness or productivity?

Stephanie Barron Hall: 59:41

Hmm,

Khara: 59:41

So obviously, um, depending on who's listening and what shows up for them, some people are like, aren't they the same? And it's like, they're very different for people who've done that self work. Of busyness is I'm just doing it to feel like I'm moving things forward or moving the needle, whereas productivity is actual evidence that this was moving the needle. Busyness leads to burnout. Productivity does not, in my experience, I.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 1:00:02

Yeah.

Hannah: 1:00:03

Yeah. And I had a professor in grad school who, um, introduced this concept of, what's your reasonable best? And I loved that so much, and I've kept it with me all of these years of, um, you know. With the, the capacity that you have right now, the skillset that you have, the experience that you have, how can you show up in your reasonable best, not the best that you think that you should be? Um, and so I think it's this idea of just giving yourself grace to, to show up authentically, um, but still show up with excellence.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 1:00:34

Yeah, that's so good and so good for threes because I think we have a lot of ideas about our unreasonable best, like in a vacuum, in an ideal world, like, you know, looking back on our day, seeing all the inefficiencies, so

Hannah: 1:00:51

Yeah. Or even compared to last, to like last year's capacity versus like, okay, well now we're a mom and we can't do some of those things. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall: 1:01:01

Yeah, that's, that's a big one. Okay, great. This has been so great to chat with both of you, and thank you so much for bringing so much insight and, and practical words for our listeners. I am really excited to check out your book. Of

Hannah: 1:01:17

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Steph Barron Hall: 1:01:19

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify