Enneagram in Real Life

The Enneagram of the Soul and Contemplation with Rev. Nhien Vuong

• Stephanie Hall • Season 4 • Episode 18

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This week on Enneagram in Real Life, Stephanie Barron Hall interviews returning guest, Rev. Nhien Vuong. In this episode, Nhien and Stephanie dive deeper into Nhien’s book, The Enneagram of the Soul: A 40-Day Spiritual Companion for the 9 Types. They discuss key concepts, including the transformative power of integrating the Enneagram with contemplative practice. They explore the idea that you are not your type, but rather your type is a gateway to greater self-awareness and spiritual freedom. The conversation emphasizes the importance of moving beyond simply self-describing to actually doing the inner work and practicing self-compassion. Nhien also breaks down conscious communication (from her book) for each type. 

Read more in Nhien’s book! Grab a copy of The Enneagram of the Soul here. 

Contemplative Enneagram Certification Program: Click here to learn more and get on the Waitlist

Find the full show notes here:  https://www.ninetypes.co/blog/the-enneagram-of-the-soul-with-rev-nhien-vuong


🔗 Connect with Reverend Nhien Vuong!

📷Nhien’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolvingenneagram/

💻Nhien’s website: https://evolvingenneagram.com/

🎥Youtube: www.youtube.com/@evolvingenneagram



🔗 Connect with Steph!

💻 Stephanie’s Website: https://ninetypes.co/

📷 Stephanie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ninetypesco

🎥 Stephanie’s Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@stephbarronhall


Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.

Nhien Vuong:

first we find the Enneagram, we're like, oh my God, this seems like me. Like this is describing my behavior. but we start to realize that actually It's a strategy, that I adopted early on that I've now come to feel that like this is me. so understanding that I am not my type is actually the beginning of opening to the fullness of who I am that is outside the construct of three, And so, so this journey is about recognizing there are things behind that shell of personality for all of us, right? But how can we embrace that as a part of welcoming your true, authentic self,

Welcome to Enneagram in Real Life, the podcast where we explore how to apply our Enneagram knowledge in our daily lives. I'm your host, Stephanie Barron Hall, and on today's episode, I'm joined once again by Reverend. If you've been listening to the podcast for a few months, you might have heard my episode with Ian back in the spring, but on this episode I wanted to do a deeper dive on her book, which is called The Enneagram of the Soul, A 40 Day Spiritual Companion for the Nine Types With A Forward From the One and Only Russ Hudson. So Nen is an internationally accredited Enneagram professional with distinction, a certified Somatic Enneagram facilitator and the founder of Evolving Enneagram. She's been studying the Enneagram since 2002, teaching it since 2007, and training other Enneagram professionals since 2017. She holds a Juris doctor from Stanford Law School, a master of Divinity from Unity Institute and Seminary, and a Bachelor of Arts and Philosophy from uc, Irvine. Born in wartime Vietnam and raised in the United States. She comes from a family of refugees who built their lives from the ground up. N spiritual companions, individuals from diverse backgrounds from around the world. She regularly offers scholarships for evolving enneagrams of many transformational programs and donates her time to various nonprofits and the incarcerated. Her extensive experience in pastoral care, community building and conflict resolution help to foster a world where everyone belongs. So make sure to check out her book. It's called The Enneagram of the Soul. On today's episode, I chose a few passages that I really liked. I wanted to get a, a deeper dive in the book, and then I, chose a few of the sections, which you'll hear a little bit more about as we discuss, but that I really liked and wanted to talk more about, and. When I tell you I, the amount of passages I pulled out, I was really optimistic as a classic three, about how much we could get through in this short amount of time that we had. But this will be a very practical episode for you. So it's full of lots of helpful information. Background on using the n Agram for personal transformation and just some really helpful tips, um, for each of the types. I also wanted to share with you that Nian is starting Her own practitioner training. So this is called the Contemplative Enneagram, and it's a practitioner training and certification program, and it starts September, 2025. Now, like I mentioned, Nan has been teaching the Enneagram For nearly 20 years. And so she's a really good person to learn from, to learn both the theoretical side of this tool as well as the practical side. she a accredited by the International Enneagram Association and she. Has developed a five module training. Um, so it starts September 12th, 2025, and it ends, the fifth module will end, in September of 2026. you can find all of the information for this training on evolving enneagram.com. but I'll link all of the info that you'll need, in the show notes as well, just in case you wanna check it out. Um, if you're interested in that at all, definitely check out contemplative Enneagram because I think that she, I is an excellent guide and resource. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Yan Wang and Our discussion about her book Enneagram for the Soul.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Well, Reverend Nin vg, welcome back to the podcast.

Nhien Vuong:

It is so great to be here.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I'm so happy to have you back now that I've finally gotten to read your book. and we've just been chatting about, you know, different takeaways and everything and, and truly I think that if we could go step by step through the entire book, that would be ideal. Um, but turns out some of us are gonna have to read it instead of having you walk us through it instead. but I'm just excited to talk about some of these topics today.

Nhien Vuong:

yeah. Yeah. It's such an honor. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

so I'm wondering if to start out, we could talk a little bit about the structure of the book. I think that. We did talk about this last time, but if you can just describe again, you know, part one, how you structured that, and then part two.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. Yeah. So I opened the book with, first an intro, then an Enneagram primer, a really brief, like how to use this book. Um, and then I launch into nine principles, nine practices, nine prayers, and then there are 40 activations. So really like invitations to explore, uh, reflections or practices that help you to. Break free of the fixation of type. And, and there's also an appendix that includes things like, you know, if you're new to the Enneagram, you know, go look at these resources. But also, uh, an Appendix B is, um, about if you want to build contemplative Enneagram community around the book. And so that's how the book is laid out. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I really liked it because it was both an agram type specific and then in some spaces it wasn't, it was like, these are just general practices like, for example, centering prayers, you know, things like that, that are helpful for all of us to get to know. Sure.

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, for two reasons. One is first, that that was very intentional, like even as a quote Enneagram expert, like that whole idea that people make the, the Enneagram, the end all be all like, I think is the wrong focus, right? Like that, that we make, that like, we start to worship the Enneagram, if you will. And, and including the practice is like, well, actually now that you know the Enneagram, how are we applying it to our transformation, to our healing, to our, you know, like what I hope is our, our desire for greater love and peace in the world. And without the practices, the Enneagram is just a map you're looking at, right? Or I say in the book, just the menu you're reading without eating like the food, right? So yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. Um, yeah, I really like that too because, you know, you touched on it in one, one of the principles, but, um, it works if you work it, that concept. Um, and, you know, it's, it's inviting us into that work of not just describing ourselves. And that's actually something that I've emphasized as well. And admittedly, I've been accused of being. A bit of a three about it in the sense of how, I think as threes we want, like, um, you know, anytime there's a, a concept introduced to us, we ask, okay, so what, like, what do I do with this? And of course that can have some negative implications at times, but it's also one of the gifts that we can bring into this work of, of saying like, okay, like let's actually talk about how we're gonna make this happen in daily

Nhien Vuong:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was very struck by how it is both the, the, um, fixation and the gift of the three that we like things to be pragmatic, you know, and have outcomes, right. Like visible, tangible outcomes. And, you know, and, and I think a part of what I talk about in the book is that these qualities of all of our types. Are not bad, they're all gifts. It's just that we overdo them. Right? It's that, and, and it's not just that we overdo them, but we don't realize when we are trapped by them, uh, we don't realize that we're not acting out of a place of freedom. So it's not about like, I mean, to me the three's effectiveness in the capacity to get things done. I like to tell people like, you know, there's sort of a negative connotation now to the idea of, uh, um. Even productivity in the world, right? Like producing. And I'm like, well, but if you hire someone to do your fence, to build your fence, like you want them to finish, like you want the outcome of a fence, right? So just because our culture has, um, has unhealthy threeness in it, where the threeness is competitive at the expense of relationality and things like that, that people equate productivity with something very bad now. So it's kind of interesting to, to, and for all the types, right? There's a way in which all the types can be mis, mis uh, construed because people, uh, especially when people experience the unhealthy aspects of that number, and it's highly visible in the world and in America, threeness is highly visible, you know? So, yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that framing and I think it's a perfect, um, segue into the first topic I wanted to discuss, which is one of the principles. You are not your type.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Tell me more

Nhien Vuong:

that enough.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah.

Nhien Vuong:

so right here's a book, and everyone's like, oh, I wanna learn my type. And I'm like, chapter one, you are not your type, you know? Right. And, and so what I mean by that is that whenever we start talking about the Enneagram, and even I do this, I'll say, I, I am a three, right? As a shortcut though, I don't actually mean that I am a type three, and I try not to use that language anymore, but it's more of like, I lead with type three or my, my home base, or I default to type three, or even I'm fixated at type three or 0.3 on the Enneagram to understand that part of, at least from this spiritual perspective, it's not everybody's perspective, but that the idea is that, oh, first we find the Enneagram, we're like, oh my God, this seems like me. Like this is describing my behavior. But, but we start to realize that actually it's a. It's a strategy, uh, that I adopted early on that I've now come to feel that like this is me. so understanding that I am not my type is actually the beginning of opening to the fullness of who I am that is outside the construct of three, you know, outside. How the three, uh, persona would actually limit my being. You know? And so there are some ways, like we talked about doing right, of, of accomplishing versus like being, and if I'm called to like just enjoy and appreciate my sheer existence, like that's whoa for a three, right? Like really, I don't have to be productive or purposeful right now that I can open to that. The threes type structure is like, no, you can't. Like, you just can't. Like, and, and so the idea of recognizing that I'm not just, I'm not a three at core, right? I fixate there, but there are parts of me that just wanna like sit and wonder at the world, right? That there are parts of me that, that there's this wholeness of being that. I might want to express that maybe people don't admire, they're things that like aren't cool or aren't popular, but, but they're authentic aspects of my being and I no longer want to shame them or push them down. Or hide them. And so, so this journey is about recognizing there are things behind that shell of personality for all of us, right? For D like for the, for the nine, it might be the opposite. The nine might be like that desire to shine is like what's hidden. You don't even know you have it. You don't even have permission to know that you have it. Right? That very opposite for eights in the beginning before they find the Enneagram. Like they don't feel like there's weakness or vulnerability within themselves. Right. That that's even hidden from themselves and they're like, IM an eight. I'm strong like this. As opposed to recognizing, actually the eight persona only identifies with the strength and the power in you, and then shuts the rest out. Right? Yeah. But how can we embrace that as a part of welcoming your true, authentic self, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong:

Um,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. And, and I think the very next principle says it well as, um, your type is a gateway to spiritual freedom,

Nhien Vuong:

yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

um, which I think is what you're, you're describing and, you know, elsewhere in, in this section, I really liked the, the comparison of like, for example, for type one where you say no amount of perfecting or correcting can ever get us the experience of divine perfection.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

And you have one of these short adages for each type. and it really is highlighting how our types are trying to craft something really good, right? Like trying to craft the experience for threes of intrinsic worth. We don't know how, and so we hustle. And that's how we think we're gonna get it. And then we have to realize that's not how we get it.

Nhien Vuong:

Right. And not only not how we get it, but it's like the further we go in that direction, the further away we get from that sense of worth. Because it's almost like that that whole, like the foundation or the premise was wrong, the premise that we weren't inherently worthy, but we can earn it just after this goal. You know? Like I'll be, I'll be worthy after this thing I do. Right. Or this thing I achieve whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. And I, and. And, and why is it spiritual? From my perspective, it's this idea that we each lost one facet of this wholeness, right? And like you described the one holy perfection, and we're like, oh shoot, it's lost. And the one's like, oh, well I will make it happen. I will notice what is wrong with the world and I will correct it. And then we will have a perfect world. Like, but it doesn't matter. I keep correcting and correcting it, but all I can see are the flaws of the world. Same thing with three. It's like, oh, I'm adding value. I'm adding value. Surely I will be valuable now. You know? Like if we're like, Nope, we are getting further away. Actually, it's like, because we get further away from where it actually is within ourselves, within our own being. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Well, and I think the thing that we want the most when we're going at it from that kind of, I don't wanna say wrong, like I understand why we do it, right, but from the wrong direction. It's elusive. Like I think of sixes and certainty, you know?

Nhien Vuong:

Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, A Course in Miracles, which is a wisdom tradition that inspires me, says the ego's mantra is seek, but do not find. I was like, oh, that explains my life. You know? So, know, like, oh, okay. And that's exactly, and again, not making it bad, it's just like, it's a misguided is kind of how I see it just misguided. It's like we, you know, we're like, keep it up, you know, it's out here. And I was like, no, it's not actually out there. And, and the paradox is once I have it in here, I, I could probably end up creating better value in the world out there coming from the place of my wholeness than the place of my striving. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I think one thing I see along these lines a lot is when people are like, well, I'm just this type, so, you know, deal with it. and I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I think a lot of us, especially whether that's. Social media, online, or it's in the workplace, it can be really difficult to have some of these con deeper conversations that we need to have. So we're a little bit defensive. but you talk about that a little bit in do not weaponize the Enneagram, this principle

Nhien Vuong:

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

actually this principle says thou shalt not weaponize the Enneagram, which I appreciate. Um, just like the commandment, you know. Um, and, and one of the first things you say in this chapter is, um, I'd rather you not know the Enneagram than apply the Enneagram without compassion.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

And I'm wondering if you have some sort of, you know, story or experience that really drew you to, to drill this point home because it feels very visceral to me.

Nhien Vuong:

So, so I mean, I would say that maybe the first few years of my own application of the Enneagram, so we really do receive things at the level of our current consciousness. And I know when I first met the Enneagram, I was actually not even on a spiritual path at the time. And so I remember the, that, that sense. And again, tricky because we talked last time. Hm. Um, about how I thought I was a one, but just like the self criticalness was like, well, here's another thing wrong with me. Here's another thing I have to fix about myself. And that's exactly that kind of striving. It's like it just moved me further. I mean, it just kept a sense of inner peace and wholeness further and further away. And there were now an infinite number of reasons given by the Enneagram why it wasn't okay yet. You know, like why I had to keep working on myself, right? That sense of like working and improving, whether it's correcting or the growth mindset of the three improving. And then I saw it in other people where it was like I could see probably more easily, at least earlier on. How others hurt themselves. Actually, with that same mentality of this, I've already not felt good enough all my life, and now the Enneagram is here and I wanna be a better person and look at all the ways I'm not evidencing all the higher levels of this Enneagram type. Right? So that's maybe a part of the journey, like, like a part of us meeting it. And that's why for me as a, as a teacher and a facilitator. Really emphasizing compassion early on, uh, because many people don't even believe it. They're like, sure you're right. Uh, but it starts to seep in over time. But yeah, hearing people use the Enneagram teachings to be like, oh, this is another reason I'm defective, is painful. And then I was also doing couples work, you know, so, so I had my own visceral like ahas around, you know, like, oh, I'm starting from the wrong standpoint. Like, it's a gentle like perspective. But then also in couples work, in relationship work, I, I worked with families as well, and because I'm a minister, I also like communities. I'm seeing people interact and they're like, yeah, because so and so is an eight, you know, I'm like, oh, you know, kind of how, you know, it's like they've already got such a bad rap in the world, these poor eights, you know, I have a lot of compassion for how eights get. Treated. I mean, people will talk in communities about those aids in a way we don't hear about many other types. Right. You know, as if like they're so tough they can handle it. And I'm like, I'm like, first of all, you are doing to others what you say you never want people to do to you, which is put you in a box. So Right. And it is so like there's no room for that person to be anything other than that. And you take all the evidence that supports OC C and then you. Lock it up. And so that hurts both sides. That hurts your own ability to receive the giftedness that that person is, who's happens to identify as an eight, is offering you because you can't even see it. You can't receive it, and then the other person feels further damned and they're probably gonna be more when that rejection stance double down, as you said, that reaction, you know, when we could probably hear it from AIDS of like, this is just my type, like deal with it. It's like almost like if people first believe and and really feel and know that they are accepted as they are in this moment. With their egoic self shining through. Like if I came to you and I was like, yeah, I, you know, I'm caring about, like, I'm worried that I don't look good today. And it's like, if you were like, well, well don't be such a three. I was like, God, that'd be so hurtful. Right? But if you're like, Aw, because she's a three, she might be a little bit more sensitive to that. Right? Like that compassionate view will actually help me get over it to where it's like, oh yes, I'm okay. And that healing is diff, you know, it's like, oh, then maybe I will be less self-conscious. Right? And so, yeah, so supporting ourselves and supporting others by first recognizing how much, despite the fact that we tend to say, oh, I'd hate for someone to put me in a box that we are doing it. Often when we're like, you're such an eight, you're such a nine, you're such a two, that kind of thing. And so being aware of how we might do it, and again, compassionately letting it go to realize, Hey, I probably do it because, you know, just like my dad used to say, you're so spoiled. You know, kind of like, like there were these things that we, these, um, violences that we recreate right from, from our backgrounds. Yeah. So, Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. And I like that you started out with self-compassion when talking about that because that is a huge blind spot for me, and in fact, a big a, it's something I really struggle with. And I think using the Enneagram and community has helped a lot where people are like, you know, I'm listening to you and you're actually being really hard on yourself. Like, I have very little awareness of that, um, on my own. And so I think that's so helpful. and such a big part of it too. And I think, you know, when I'm teaching the Enneagram and corporate and stuff, I see a lot of people, not so much weaponizing it against other people, but using it to defend their, their actions. where it's like, well, I'm just gonna keep going and, you know, not take a break ever because I'm a three and that's what I like doing.

Nhien Vuong:

Mm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

You know, from the outside, I am watching a person who is like on the brink of burnout

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

and I can see a crash in bird coming, but they aren't willing to look at that. Right? So that can be a challenge. And the thing I always talk about is we're using the N agram to understand each other a little bit more, understand ourselves, but understand each other a little bit more, so that you can be like, oh, I could imagine why this would be difficult for this person. I'm sitting across from. I can imagine why, at the end of this onsite, this five I'm sitting next to is totally drained when I feel thrilled and exhilarated as a seven. You know what I mean?

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that you're doing that.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

taking.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes, exactly. Yes. And, and so to whatever extent we do box in, I like to, so in philosophy, which is part of my background, my undergrad is in philosophy. There's this idea called bracketing. You put something in brackets. It's not like, like, maybe I don't even know what your type is, but I kind of just put it in brackets. It's like, I imagine maybe, and if I assume this, I might be more compassionate. Like, that's how I apply the brackets of like, I don't know what this person's type is. I, but I imagine if they are a type eight, then, then there's a reason why. Whereas before I was like, why are you so blustering coming into this room? Like, you know, and now I'm like, oh, it's a defensive, you know, stance in a way. It's like to, to like, hey. Claim the space, nobody else control me. You know, like that kind of energy. And now I have more compassion for it because where does it come from? There's this armor protecting this tenderness and vulnerability inside, right? Because I know that to be true of aids, you know, just because you are not showing it. Like, I don't need to wait for Nate to show me their vulnerability, for me to know it's there and right. And so like, I can hold it tenderly, even if the outside is a little bit gruffer than I might be, right? Yeah. Yeah. So,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I'm wondering if you can also talk a little bit about the importance of community as you're doing this work. cause I think that's a big emphasis throughout this book, but also, um, something I've heard you talk about elsewhere too.

Nhien Vuong:

yes, yes. It is a huge emphasis, uh, like in my life. It's funny because I, I might have shared last time I used to think I was like the, I believe like sincerely that I was the loneliest person. In the world. And the problem is I didn't have people to ask. You know, so like, I, like I couldn't check to see if my facts were accurate or anything, but that like absolute sense of isolation in the world is so different from the world I inhabited. The world hasn't changed, right. But from the world I inhabit today. Um, so it's kind of ironic, but probably in some ways perfect. That I really teach community and, and and mirroring. And in my book I quote Harville Hendricks, who teaches this Imago theory of Relationship. And he says basically we are born in relationship. We are wounded in relationship and we can be healed in relationship. And so this idea that, um, that yes, we come together and we might rub each other, uh, well, we will inevitably rub each other. I, I should say, like there are pieces of that that reveal to us where we're still wounded, you know? And if we're willing to kind of be with that and, and hold our truth in that, bring compassion to the whole space, something changes. And so it's like my, it's like I live in a different universe now because of doing work in community. And I would say that, uh. Abby Robbins wrote a book called The Conscious Enneagram, where they talk about SGA, essentially, which is spiritual community. And so I wanna do a shout out, you know, to that, but really, uh, understanding like there's an, there's a difference between community that comes together based on affiliation. Meaning, oh, you're all mothers, so you're in a community, um, or you like golf so you're in a community versus like intentional or conscious community. And so what I really mean is like conscious community where we might not have everyday things like that are similar, you know, like we might not even be friends if we had like met each other, but. We grow to become family because we're connecting with the shared intentionality around awakening or growth, whatever it is for that specific community, right? And, and so that shared, it's almost like we share the questions that we ask of life. Not the answers necessarily. Right. And, and so that space creates a different kind of bond that I find to be deeper and healing. And again, allows space for us to be different, to find our own answers. But maybe we're joined together because we're asking like life the same questions. Like what is the meaning of life? And those kinds of questions like, what's the purpose of my existence? You know, is love the fabric of the universe. What is truth? Like, these are the kinds of things I care about. And, and so joining in community that cares about these questions has been healing and meaningful. And I find people say exactly this in our communities that I feel like I'm family with people I would've never been friends with, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, it's so interesting, um, too, because I have a number of these communities that are, more so Enneagram specific and. Just having like so many different generations in one room, um, and talking about the same topics. It's fun to learn, from people who've been there. And it's also fun to be like, yeah, I guess you never really do feel like you've got it all sorted, do you? And as I think, uh, you know, as, as my type, I'm like, I, I need that reminder.'cause like I have this concept that the, the finish line is achievable and it's like, oh no, I have to look at that differently. Um, and, and that's, I think a gift as well.

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah, for sure. So, nice. Absolutely. Yeah, for me, um, and it's a daily practice reminder. It's not like, I mean, we understand type as default, so as long as I've been on this journey, I have to remind myself, oh. Pay attention, receive the joy. You know, like, like, like it's funny, I like, I have to coach myself and so, oh, okay, I'm here. This is the moment, this is my life. Like, where am I rushing? I mean, even like today I was like, you know, your practice is when you're walking, like, why do I need to walk quickly down the stairs to wash my dishes? Like, where am I going? You know, just like, I'm like, why don't I just enjoy that? Like, I have these beautiful like hardwood floors. It's a old crickety house and like, but I love it. It's like, has character and all these plants, you know, it's just like, this is my life today, like today. And yes. So that's very much a, a, an ongoing part of my practice to remind myself to be here now and enjoy the journey. yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

it's interesting that you point out like the, the speed walking situation because in the last year in particular, I've had some significant health challenges that have required me to. Or, or force me to be slower because I'm not physically able to, um, move as quickly. And, you know, for example, for most of our relationship, my husband and I, we go for a walk. He's, he's quite a bit taller than me. and he has to run every few steps to like, keep up with me walking. And recently we were out for a walk and, um, you know, I'm moving at my glacial pace now.

Nhien Vuong:

Oh

Stephanie Barron Hall:

is like, I never thought we would just go out for a nice stroll, like just walking really slowly. And, um, it's, it's, it's interesting, like it does change your perspective a lot.

Nhien Vuong:

yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. First of all, I'm sorry about your health issue. You know, like I feel like in some ways it's like even extra compassion for the three, having to slow down, you know, like what that does. Like there's discomfort there. Right. Like, and my like, like I remember I used to teach that like if threes aren't ahead, they feel behind, right? Like, so much less actually being behind. I'd be much less like, oh my gosh. So just a lot of compassion for what's, uh, bound to have come up for you, just in the midst of that. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, for sure. Really challenging, but, you know, this is how we learn. and I think I noticed that as well, um, in these prayers that you wrote.

Nhien Vuong:

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

So you wrote the nine prayers for each of the types, uh, or one for each of the type.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

And I'm curious if you can share anything about that process or if you just wanna share like what. Message did you want each type to receive with these?

Nhien Vuong:

Oh wow. Um, so, okay. My process is that I think, so I've led these weekly contemplative Enneagram groups for, we're in our eighth year now, so I sit and I listen to people. I mean, we have five groups, so I'm listening to people share about their lives and. I do see that more and more like what, like used to be a very judgmental lens on everything in my existence is like this awe, you suffer needlessly. This feeling of like, we suffer needlessly in nine different ways. You know? And I think in some ways the prayer is like, because we don't do crosstalk, the, the prayer is my response to each person, you know, around the circle. It's like, oh, this is the gift I wanna give you the knowing of this, you know? Um, and that you need, I mean, and probably we all need all nine prayers, you know, but just a little bit more honed in for like, awe. So it's, it, it's like, um, I wanna say that I wrote this book, but my community lived this book. You know, this is from people's real lived experiences that I draw and, and. Yeah, so I think maybe like, I can almost like picture certain people in, in our community as I read it, you know, it's like, oh, it's for you, it's for you. And of course the Enneagram three is, is for me, but there are other threes in our community. In fact, it's kind of funny, someone's in our Monday group, it's like, I've never seen so many threes meditating. It was hilarious. That happens to be the largest group of threes in our Monday group. So if you wanna join, so, you know, contemplatives and, and it is funny, but like, yeah, we've, it, it's a challenge. Usually they come during their like sabbatical and then they leave when they're back at work. But the those who stay, it's like they get it on a certain level, but there's still the suffering that continues. Right? There's a default to this. Not enough and, and, um, growth mindset, right, which is not actually healthy for a three to, to have that growth mindset as the beginning. So, yes. So I'm just looking at the book now. So that's, so that's the process behind the prayers and Yeah. So I hope people receive them. The part of me is like, these are, I'm, I'm actually authentically and this is something I'm letting be shown more. I'm authentically a really corny person. Like the real me is like, I'm cheesy, you know, and like these prayers, I was like, oh, people might think these are super cheesy, but I'm like, screw it. You know? Like, I love this and this is my heart and this is what I wanna give, you know? So, so yeah, I have a, I have a huge like, kind of corny, very idealistic streak in me. And this is, yeah, this is that gift.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. I love that. I, what I like about these prayers is

Nhien Vuong:

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

you do talk before this about the concept of prayer more generally because this, this part of the book comes after the practices in which you have centering prayer and these different things that are contemplative practices, but um, are not necessarily tied to any religious.

Nhien Vuong:

Hmm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Practice or, or spiritual, what, what's the word? I'm, tradition. That's the word I'm thinking of. but kind of got the sense too that, you know, these are indicated for this specific types, but also we all have these different struggles. And, and like for me, for example, I see a lot of gluttony in myself. So type seven in the sense that I'm like, I just have a million ideas and I wanna try them all. And sometimes what can be challenging about that is to limit myself to, to like take on a practice of limiting myself. So then I'm like, oh, then the seven prayer might be a really good one for me. You know what I mean? Um, I don't know if that was how you intended them, but it feels like they could, we could learn something from each of them.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. well, you're actually speaking to a part of what's different. I mean, maybe it's not unique, but it's rare that a book has activations or invitations, devotionals for all nine types, you know?'cause you find them for one. But part of this work I've been doing in community is I realized, I was like, first of all, oh. If you put the other person's next to yours, they might read it, you know, and then people were saying, oh, this has really helped me have a perspective on essentially the suffering of another number. So I really realized that. And then, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but for those of us who don't believe, like the Enneagram is just about personality, we recognize it as a map of consciousness. That within, um, that within my wholeness contains all points on the Enneagram and certain ones, you know, I don't believe we're all equally all points. And so it's not like we're all types. I have a thing about that I don't believe we're all types. We have one type and yet we can express the dynamism of, of our humanity, right? Qualities that are more typical of seven, right? Um, and so by having it all in one place, not just a book, only on sevens, a book only on ones or threes, like we get the benefit of. The way that we interact with all the points and thus even more of an invitation into wholeness. Right. So that's like, yeah.'cause we can also feel the ones we're like, Ew, you know, like, like not so much. Right. As well as the ones like we overdo and we're like, yeah, I need that prayer. Like, you know, like how many threes need the one stuff too, you know, like is it's right. And I will say that I've always held the sexual, so for those who have, oh, we haven't talked about our types, uh, today, you know, if, if it's okay just that both of us identify as sexual threes, but with the, with you being self pre second and me being social second, but that I've always connected that. To, to, to energy with seven ishness, you know that? Yeah, yeah. That, that, that's kind of how I try to describe it to people. Like I connect it with this. It's like making, uh, choices. Having choices, you know, that, that kind of thing. And that like sort of boundless energy that doesn't like know about conservation or management of energy. Right. Yeah. So the sexual dominant instinct. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, I think that those overlays are so interesting too, of just recognizing like, oh, you know, maybe the self pre six might seem a bit more like this versus, you know, the sexual six, maybe they need to also read the eight prayer.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

know what I mean? Or the, you know, the social one needs to read five and six or, or whatever else. I'm wondering if we can move into a couple of the, um, activations. So the activations are a 40 day journey to walk us into having some sort of, you know, transformation is my sense. How would you describe them?

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly it. Accept that, and, and this might be my sexual instinct coming. I was like, I want people to choose their own adventure. You know? Like, it could be 40 weeks, you don't have to do 40 days, you know? Um, and for some people, uh, there's this notion, I, I call it dowsing, which is you open the book to like, whichever, you know, page. So I wanna say I'm very open and, and like trusting that whatever, like your inner wisdom, like inviting that to guide you on the journey and not like prescribing a certain route for you. But the idea of like, why did I choose 40, uh, 40, the number 40. Has spiritual, like symbolism across many of the world's religious traditions, religious and spiritual traditions. That for me, for my unity background, has meant like completion. And, and when I say that, it's like maturation and the, uh, from a unity perspective, there's this notion of like, you know, Jesus going out into the desert for 40 days. You know that for me, I equate that with the Buddha sitting under the tree, you know, to say, I will sit here as long as it takes. That's how committed I am. So the symbolism of 40 isn't necessarily like, oh, it's 40 days, or, but it's the symbolism of like. I care about this, this is the most important thing. When I make it the most important thing. You know, when I devote myself completely or wholeheartedly, then the gifts arise. So, so that's the basis of like choosing 40 of the activations that I wrote to put in this book. And yes, these, um, these are designed to sometimes gently like affirm you and other times, and probably more often it's like kind of just to wiggle like that little, the way the type is so firmly embedded and just like a gentle, how about this? You know, how about this? It's like, whoa, that, you know,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah.

Nhien Vuong:

I didn't think of it that way. And just to kind of budge the way the type is so entrenched in us, right? Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, but I did wanna mention briefly that day four is about freedom from your inner critic. And I really liked that because I have done so many typing interviews with people, and it's extremely rare. I've met two people who say, oh, I don't have an inner critic at all,

Nhien Vuong:

Mm.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

but we, we put that in like firmly in the type one camp a lot of the time. And so it can be confusing. And so I like that you, brought that up for each type of, of these different paths.

Nhien Vuong:

Mm. Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I'd love to chat a little bit about day 15, which is conscious communication.

Nhien Vuong:

Oh, okay. Let me flip to that page. So,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm. So for those of you at home who are following along with your book, it's on page 1 29 and the activation here by type. And I should mention that each of the activations has, um, something for each type,

Nhien Vuong:

yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

which I really liked. I liked this because it's about, like you were saying, it's like wiggling the tooth a little bit, you know what I mean? Like changing, How we naturally go about doing things to see what else, what other awareness it can bring up. So I'd love if you would touch on each type briefly and what was so salient for you about these different words, like for example, with type one condemning to encouraging.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes, yes. Well, so our language, you know, sort of that outer expression can reveal of course, like what's actually inside. But when we are so used to it, like we can't see that. So to name it, to, to just bring light to this idea that, do you realize ones, that ones who want to be so good, you know, that you're like condemning each moment by how you talk. You know, just like, oh, did you know? Right. And, and then inviting that shift in, in, in this idea that like, I believe ones actually wanna be encouraging. They wanna be good and helpful people in the world. Right? So picking words like that to where it's like, oh yeah. So the shift for ones is to watch how condemnatory they are in their languaging in a way that can actually disrupt the thing that they're wanting to draw forth, right? And then inviting languaging. That is encouraging. And re, and I'll add the, the extra piece to it is everything I do, even like nothing I do or offer here relationally isn't also for the person. Right? So inviting the one to do that, also invite the one that was like, oh, then I have to look for what's, what's positive. I have to look for that. I know. No, now I get to look for that from, so the term condemning to encouraging. And so maybe in yourself as well, you can notice the self-talk of condemning to encouraging. for the two, uh, complaining to requesting, Ooh. So I mean, yes, average health, you know, twos to maybe unhealthy twos don't even realize, but it's their way of saying, look at what I did. Oh, it was so hard. I'm so tired. You know, it's like other people are just like, God, did you hate life? And the two doesn't know that they're necessarily like, being so negative, but that's the, oh, if I can't actually ask for someone to appreciate or notice what I need, I'll just complain about how hard it was. And maybe they will notice, right? That, that I, I worked so I gave so much, I sacrificed so much. And so, so often too, don't realize their complaint. Right. That, that, um, and so moving to the empowered position of the two, actually recognizing I have a need for affirmation or appreciation, and instead of going backward and around and manipulating to get it, I will empower myself to ask for it. You know, and, and so just real, it, it forces the two to be like, I have needs, right? As opposed to, oh, no, no, all of you. You know, like, am I overly like dramatizing? Like you feel it, right? Like that energy, right? Yeah.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Well, and I think there's also a, a sense where twos do this when it's like, oh, I just wish that I knew how to use my new computer, or whatever it is. And it's a way of trying to get somebody else to be like, oh, I'll show you.

Nhien Vuong:

Right.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

That's so much more comfortable than saying, Hey, will you show me how to use this? Um,

Nhien Vuong:

Directly asking for help. Yeah, that's like empowered twoness.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong:

So, oh no, we can pick on ourselves now. So for the type three, um, moves from curated to candid, and I mean, that's obvious, so we know what that means. So, so, but the unconscious three, and I would say. Myself for like, not even knowing I'm, I was a three for years. That curating is so subtle. It can happen so quickly. You don't know, you've just adjusted.'cause like, oh, this room is full of like a different kind of people. Like suddenly I'm talking a little differently with a little different accent. It's like ridiculous. Like, like this, you know? And again, it's not bad or wrong, but if I don't recognize it, then I'm living unconsciously then. Then it's like, like, and then I wonder, oh, I'm now friends with all these people. I don't even like, like, because they thought I was like, like them, right? Like, so just making these choices where it's like, I wanna be conscious. It's skillful to adapt. Two situations, but to do it unconsciously, we abandon our truth, our authenticity, right? So moving from curated to candid, uh, candid, even saying it feels like, oh, are we so wide open? And we, so like, oh, we might say stupid things, right? Like, we might be messy, we might be silly. Or, you know, and more and more making space for that. And of course the paradox is from the outside, it's adorable to watch threes be spontaneous and like real and natural. You could feel the difference there, the energetic difference. Um, but from the inside it's like, uh, uh, like the inside is like, let's be careful here. You know, like, we wanna look cool, like, so, right.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

totally. I mean, I was just thinking this the other day because, um, I had friends over who've never been to my house before, and I, I'm the type of person who wants to clean it to where it looks like nobody's ever lived there. However, I am physically not able to do that right now. So it's like, well, this is just the way that it is, and like learning to accept that, um, and to learn how to like. It doesn't mean that I'm less hospitable if it's not like, you know, the front yard is perfectly weeded, for example. You know, it's challenging.

Nhien Vuong:

yes, absolutely. And at the same time, um. I, I don't know about for you, but for me, um, those are the moments, right? That like, I have felt the most loved. Like when I can let people see me when I'm not like, ready to be seen, or like my house or my, whatever it is, is not my PowerPoints or not ready to be seen, and they see it and there's something about, oh, like, I really believe, like, they're not gonna come back the next time because, well, they're, I screwed it up because it wasn't perfect. You know, like, you're back, you still like me. Like, this is crazy. You know? And that has been like some of the most healing times at times when I, I, I made a mistake or did something below par and I wasn't like a bandage, you know, like so extreme. But there's a part of me that's like, oh. Like if I'm just myself, like, that's not enough here, right? Yeah. all right. Oh, I'm sure fours don't love this, but so fours go from wet and windy the, the sadness, the expression, like, do you see the sadness and the depth of this, you know, kind of to cut and dry. So the move, it is kind of a move from the four to the one energy of like. Principled matter of fact. And the gift in this is, okay, watch for how long-winded melancholic and metaphoric you can be in conversations, right? There's this sort of spiraling in this self-referencing that the fork can do at its own peril, right? Not realizing, oh, you may have lost connection with the rest of us by the time you are, you know, lost in your own thing. And then for fours who say they value authenticity so much, we recognize that the truth of the type structure is that the four inside it's being over does dramatizes the negative feeling. So actually it's not. Fully authentic. It's dramatized, it's exaggerated. And so recognizing that, I think fours are motivated to be like, oh, what part of it is real? As opposed to, I took it and I ran with it. Right? So this will help you stop running with it in a way that hurts you as a four. And then moving into the cut and dry is going, okay, what are the facts here? Right? Versus like, what is my story about this that I'm drawing out? Yeah. So again, the outer work of communicating like that helps with the inner work of like noticing for yourself.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah, I like that each of these are, um. Actually accomplishing what the goal is. You know, if, if the goal is clarity, which I do think that fours want to convey often clarity of thought,

Nhien Vuong:

yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

this is like a way that they can do that.

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah, that's, it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, the idea that this is actually moving towards skillfulness in connection for all, all the types, right? Yeah. So for the five, from cross five, so no, you look cross to caring, right? Yes. You did that expression very well. Like you say, I hope people see you on video. It's sort of like that, like a little bit of disdain. Maybe add to that, you know, for the fives, and again, we're making a little fun here of all the numbers, but watch for how you spontaneously challenge new information. Like there's this jumping on, right? Um, either with cold containment or cross confrontation. That's what happens, right? And so a lot of fis there would just be like the, this cross-examination of people when. They forget that like maybe that person's telling you that story to connect with you. Like, they're like, oh, not just like, they just don't wanna interact on an information level where I'm going to scrutinize their sources for this. You know, I'm thinking specifically of a couple where the is so cliche, but the man's a five and the woman's a two. Right. You know, and she's sharing something and he's jumping on, well, where did you read that? Where did you, I was like, she can't even get her story out to see why this matters to her. By the time he's like, checking the sources and, and, and battling like the ideas and, and the credibility of the ideas before she can communicate. Well, the whole point was like, what came up for her right around this. And so from cross to caring.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong:

Yeah. So then for sixes moving from concern. To confidence, um, and then watch for how your care and compassion can come across as overweighty concern or outright contrarians. So a lot of times, um, I mean we could take this in many ways, like six energies always in many ways. It depends, right? But. Uh, this, even this expression of care from sixes can feel like it's always, it's a worry energy that actually, like, I'm like, I think I feel worse now. Like, not better. Right. Like that, that you were trying to show your care by expressing how concerned you are about this situation. And I was like, now I feel just defeated about it and like, right. And so just noticing how care gets expressed as concern and really moving the languaging to understand, oh, like there could be words like, I value you, you know, I want you to thrive. That's very different, uh, than, oh my God. Like, are you really, did you, that happened to you? Just Exactly. I love your facial expressions by the

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I mean, this one in particular hits home because I am married to a six and you know, sexual three is very much like, you know, I want you to think that I'm awesome and a a six asking like anytime I would be like, oh my gosh, look at this new thing I'm gonna do, asking all these questions.'cause what he's trying to convey is like, I care. I'm afraid how devastated you're gonna be if this fails. So I wanna make sure that it doesn't, right. That's what he's trying to convey. And then I am over here like, so you think I can't do it? Right. And not knowing he was a six for a long time. Then knowing that, having that information, that's why, you know, I think the Enneagram can be so helpful because it's like, oh, I see what's happening. Like, you know, and so I can take, take that step back and be like, oh, I see what you're doing now. Right. But before I was like, oh my gosh, this is awful.

Nhien Vuong:

right, right. 100%. So, um, one example I have as a minister is whenever I had a new idea, there was a six. That like, oh, now I realize, oh, if you are poking at it, it's because you want it to work and you're poking at it to see if it will stand. Like, so you're trying to buy in. I did not know that in the beginning. I was like, ouch. Burst the bubble. Right? Like burst the bubble. And, but, but when the sixth knows this is happening, just like with the one energy about condemning, you know, versus encouraging. It's like, okay, maybe you wanna lead with something encouraging. Like that's an exciting idea.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

sure.

Nhien Vuong:

right? Like, and then you might add a few things about, Hmm. In order for your idea to go, well, have you considered these potential pitfalls? You know?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

it turns out we haven't, so we need that.

Nhien Vuong:

So, so that's very cool. Yeah. So, all right, we have three more, Oh my goodness. For the seven, and maybe this is not exactly about languaging, but like an the way they connect with people, it's like sampling, moving from sampling to savoring and of course that kind of has this food analogy to it, but like sampling right? This, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and it's jumping. It's jumping. You know, even in conversations it's like, I know sevens. Who, who interrupt their own sentences constantly. Like they were like, oh, and they've explained to me, oh n my mind, I was already onto another idea. So, so like I got bored. The one I started, I'm like, hard to connect with you, you know? And then savoring, it's like, can we be with this one for now? Let's enjoy this while it's here. What a great, even if it's an idea, like it's something you're sharing, why not here? Why not now? And that that atmosphere of like being with it in the way that savoring just has time in it, right? It's a sense of time. And of course seven's love it because it's like a pleasure thing. So it's like we're moving towards something you want, you didn't know that the way you were doing it before. You never land on like what you're wanting to do, which is like be satisfied, right? Yeah. So then for eight, the eight moves from blunt to. Discerning, oh, I could talk at, at length about this because how many eights are like, I'm just being honest, you know, like, I was like, unskillfully. So in a way that sabotages the very thing you're seeking. Right? And, and it is, there's the guise when we talk about the bluntness of eights very similar to, well, I'm an eight so I, I can do that, you know, kind of energy and not realizing that. You can still be completely honest, but has some wisdom and discernment in the execution, right? Of how you communicate something. It's more subtle. And subtlety is something that is helpful for a right, like,'cause in, in subtlety there's slowing down, there's, there's a nuance. I, I like to think of it as this, like, almost like why do eights need a push to feel something? You think about like a scab that is like, it's scabbed over the skin thick, so you almost like you need more in order to even feel like it's that idea, right? So it's like somehow by practicing these things that are related to subtlety, then eights don't need to push against something all the time to just feel a little bit of something, you know? And so bluntness to that discernment,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

I've seen this so much in eights who've really done their work where you really get that sense where they don't have that same, I mean, they're still very much eights, but they have like that discernment of like, not saying everything that comes to mind. Um, and you know, I, I actually like that about eights, that they say everything that comes to mind. Um, but I can appreciate the discernment in, in my eight friends too, who've done a lot of their own inner work and have more of that subtlety. Mm-hmm.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. I mean, I love the, you know, what you see is what you get aspect of eights for sure. And I do think some of that bluster though, they were like, yeah, this is it. I was like, it actually isn't. Authentic because it hides something behind it as well. So that gentle discernment also helps expose some under this layer beneath that is perhaps more tender. Right. And, and adorable, you know, to, uh, in my view, and oh, by the way, I use that word and, and it was like my dear friend who's one of the healthiest eights I know, she's like, I don't love that word yet. Like, adorable. I mean, you know, I was like, I know, but you know, but you are so, so it's, it's cute. And then finally, um, for the nine, uh, toning it down, that doesn't really need explanation, does it? For the nine versus speaking up. So we know that nines self-censor and they kind of want everyone to tone it down too. But there's this energy of like. Repressing and the nines don't even realize they're doing it to themselves too. So there's a self-censorship I'm talking about of like your life force, right? Of just like to keep the peace and then instead opening to risk, uh, confrontation in order to have authentic connection, right? Because it's like if you disappear the, the person doesn't leave, but you are not really in authentic relationship with them, right? You've disappeared. And so this actually enables authentic relating if you're able to like speak up and share your truth, especially when it's different, you know? I mean, it could be as basic as everybody, the whole group, five people wanna go to this restaurant and on Friday night you're like, actually, like, I don't wanna go to that restaurant. You know, to like be bold enough to assert a minority view in a situation in particular for nines, right?

Stephanie Barron Hall:

and I think that's so helpful to call out because I do think sometimes nines assume that the more agreeable I am, the more people will like me and get along with me, and it's just not true. I think I'm somebody who. I have a hard time with that and probably because I struggle with it myself, you know, and I, and I have, um, with all of the shape shifting that, that threes do. And so I am like, can I trust you that you're being truthful? You know? Um, and they're not intentionally trying to falsify anything. but every time I do like a corporate workshop, we have this conversation about direct communication. And most people say they like it when people are direct. Now we all have different definitions of what that actually means. but I think it can be surprising sometimes because nines think, oh, if I'm more friendly then people will like me more. And that's just not always the case. Um, and like I think people, they might be pleasantly surprised at how much people will really love their

Nhien Vuong:

Yes.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

speaking up.

Nhien Vuong:

Yes. And I wanna tie this back to what we talked about earlier with respect to conscious community, to, especially when people know that you're a nine and you're speaking up and you're practicing and it's, you know, adorable. Just, you know, but, but that, that sometimes, you know. These things of like the, the way of not speaking, it was reinforced in the family of origin. So having a community around you that's actually encouraging you to speak up, right? Encouraging you to like break free of that mold and not having those negative ramifications, it begins that healing process, right? Just like in our communities when like twos learn to say no, we're like celebrating that. We know that's different from eight saying no. Right? Like, which happens all the time to me. Like, you know, but like, so just being aware of how intentional community, especially Enneagram, inform community, can make all the difference. And like having the space held for you to break out of your particular Enneagram box, right? Trying on these new behaviors, if you will, and skills.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. Just that safe space, I think to practice is so important. Um, because every relationship is not gonna feel safe to do

Nhien Vuong:

Right, exactly. Exactly. And so yeah, that's, so I brought that up because for some people they might be like, well, again, I tried that, you know, with my family and I'm like, oh, with your family, this is where it all began.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

That's expert level. We need to start a beginner level.

Nhien Vuong:

start with a safer communities and then we start to build the muscle and then we come home to our family for Christmas 10 years later, like, and then we might be able to like do that assertion, right? And so, yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

just takes time.

Nhien Vuong:

yeah,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Yeah. Well, there are so many other good tidbits that I wish that, you know, like I said at the top, I, I wish that we could break them all down because you have these great things about like forgiving others and transforming our types and, and so many more pieces that I think are really helpful. but alas, we cannot cover the entire book. so I would love if you could share how people can connect with you coming up, and where they can find you online and where they can get your book.

Nhien Vuong:

yes. So, evolving enneagram.com is where you can find me and pretty much you could find everything there. Like the book, there's a, there's a whole page devoted to the book, and it was very important to me to put links to like indie books, sellers, you know, as well as the major ones. So it's like you can just find it all in one place there. And. September 12th through the 14th, I am actually launching my very first. Certification training program. So that's module one of what's gonna be a five module training contemplative Enneagram practitioner training and certification programs. So people have asked me for years, they're like, oh, which uh, training program should I use? I wish you had one. And I just wasn't ready. And I think this year I feel ready. And I think doing a training recently for people to facilitate my book, it was even more exciting. It felt like, oh my gosh, there's something big happening here in terms of the contemplative Enneagram. And, and, and I wanna go back to you Steph, like that I feel particularly touched knowing from our first conversation together, that like spirituality. That, that you've got, you know, there's, there's pain around that. And you being even open to this book, I really, I felt like you were exactly the person, like I wanted to reach, you know, to say like, there's spaciousness, there's a space for spirituality that is rooted in a sense of curiosity and wonder, and not about dogma, but about like you and your like real direct connection that, you know, and trusting that, that knowing. So, so yeah, this is, this is this interspiritual. Contemplative Enneagram movement that I feel that evolving Enneagram is a hub for. And I'm excited to launch this training to really allow more p practitioners in the world to bring it forth, even whether it's like a therapist, you in the work world, supporting your people differently with this holding of space of like, oh, maybe we don't always have to have a growth mindset. You know, what changes and transforms will we just hold being this in that kind of space? So, evolving enneagram.com, the training and, and yeah. My book could be found pretty much in from any bookseller, and it's in like every format too, like ebook and the like,

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Perfect. Um, and I do wanna highlight as well, something that I have discovered in marketing my book is that, um, we, I, I think as a collective, have an assumption that if I go to an indie book seller, it's gonna be twice the price of Amazon. And I have actually found that a lot of the time, you know, a lot of these sellers use something like bookshop.org to operate the backend of their online sales. So you're still supporting an independent bookseller, but they do have competitive pricing with Amazon. so just another, you know, plug to say, you know, that's where we can shop for these, these awesome books that are all coming out right now.

Nhien Vuong:

I love that. Thank you.

Stephanie Barron Hall:

Thanks so much for being here. I'll link everything in the show notes and. I I really hope that everyone listening will check out your book if they haven't already, because it's, it's really great and I hope that we can all learn a little something from it.

Nhien Vuong:

Aw, amazing. Thank you.

Steph Barron Hall:

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram IRL. If you love the show, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. This is the easiest way to make sure new people find the show. And it's so helpful for a new podcast like this one, if you want to stay connected. Sign up for my email list in the show notes or message me on instagram at nine types co to tell me your one big takeaway from today's show I'd love to hear from you. I know there are a million podcasts you could have been listening to, and I feel so grateful that you chose to spend this time with me. Can't wait to meet you right back here for another episode of any grim IRL very soon. The Enneagram and real life podcast is a production of nine types co LLC. It's created and produced by Stephanie Barron hall. With editing support from Brandon Hall. And additional support from crits collaborations. Thanks to dr dream chip for our amazing theme song and you can also check out all of their music on spotify

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