Dyslexic Lawyer | Tom McGovern

Dyslexic Lawyer Tom McGovern made the news when a Sheriff told him off for using his phone in court.  As a hard-working trainee, Tom puts in long hours and huge efforts to be the best criminal defence lawyer he can be for his clients. He talks with David Thomson about failure, frustrations and disabling barriers in the legal progession.

Hear the real-life stories of dyslexic people in Scotland.
With thanks to Dyslexia Scotland Podcast Volunteer David Thomson.

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Transcript

David: Welcome to the DCS of Let's Talk Dyslexia with me, David Thompson. In this first episode, I will be talking to criminal lawyer Tom McGovern who made the headlines towards the end of 2022 when the judge called him up for using a mobile phone in court. He actually uses his phone to take notes because of his dyslexia, and made the judge aware of this at the time. We will discuss in the podcast the problems in the legal system that he's faced with his dyslexia, or the effects of the interview he gave to the BBC, and recent awareness of the difficulties. We hear from Tom about the kind of dyslexia that he has.

Tom: Yes, I can tell you how it manifests, which would be difficulties in reading, writing. I miss out a lot of words, when I write and stuff like that, which I'm sure we're going to like letters can be very problematic when essay writing at a high speed. Yeah, I get mixed up sometimes. And I have to slow myself right down. And generally just processing information, I can take a bit more effort and a strategies are needed to overcome that, you know, but to be frank with you, so it's quite difficult to assess how you are in relation to everybody else. All I know is that in the dyslexia tests of my life, I've always had passed, so to speak.

David: So When did you find out were dyslexic then? 

Tom: So I had, growing up prior to starting school and just at the early years of school, I had real issues with cognitive....eh, I couldn't speak properly. So I was like six or something like that. I was at a speech therapist  for that. And I couldn't quite be ingratiated into school for the first couple of years properly because I had so many difficulties in terms of understanding communication, and then it was at the age of seven that I, I think, all sorts of tests that was dyslexia was the was the was the thing that I was found to have. But there was definitely something no right, or something that I was struggling with, you know,

David: I take it all the way through school then you got extra help in terms of when you're learning school, in terms of, so especially when you go to high school, did you find that you got extra help in terms of preparation for your exams Yyou had to do when you were in school, did you get help, or support or extra time to to do stuff, or whatever?

Tom: yeah, I lost concentration very quickly in class because I couldn't follow what the teacher was saying or something. So essentially, I'd look at a cloud or something, or just books and other stuff, It was football I was interested and then I was really good at history, randomly, like world war two. I done really well in that and then from there I got more confident with academia, but I get the generic extra time for exams, but, and the school record it with me but, in terms of intervention beyond that, it was more just I had to do a power of work at home to relearn the stuff that I couldn't understand in class, if you understand me? And kind of, documentation I had to write into simple terms. Like, what is is it, Wikipedia, where you have all the languages on the left hand side and one of them is a like a five year old or in simple English or something that's called, that's what I'd do with all my written work, I had to write it in words I could understand and then I start learning it, whereas other people would just go straight into learning it. But I don't know how you find it, David, that the people that have extra time in school, that didn't really solve the problem to be frank with you, you know, Albeit it was better than nothing. It was more there was a real chasm between the teaching and the learning for me.

David: Did you say something or did your parents say something to your school in terms of getting that support , in terms of learning in the classroom, so I've had because I think it's something that could be an issue with what you get, like one-to-one tuition and help you try and learn?

Tom: We're always quite close communication with the school and my parents were very, very hands on very involved. Thank God or else I would have done terribly in terms of assignments, etc. But I mean, it's a kind of catch 22 When you do get the help, but you also you make yourself somewhat isolated and you make yourself you split off from the rest of the class so to speak because you need that help and yet you are sat in exams in different rooms and stuff like that, so we have to, sort of... people quite like, it's... probably the difficulty is that you need to help but you don't really want to make yourself an exhibition with it and make yourself known to have a learning difficulty, buts we definitely used the school and they were generally very helpful albeit again, I don't know how well well informed it is -  just extra time in terms of an intervention.

David: Did it improve when you went to university then?

Tom: It was a total disaster, genuineley. It was like Hindenburg going up, genuinely. I mean, so school was a'right and stuff like that, I was able to get through that relatively well and I got good grades and stuff like that by then. And then, so it turns out, so you won't flout school and you say you hate it, but then you actually realise that the teachers were very good and the help support was very good for what it is, you know, and then you go to university pay a great deal of lip service for said help, and then I mean, it's like giving me a life raft and putting a hole in it. And I found the opposite to be true at university, to be frank. 

David: You failed your exams eleven times at university. That might be a fine example of how you shuffled that.

Tom: The figure is extremely, an area of pride for me and not afraid, I think it's I think, on my CV that and on my LinkedIn, et cetera. But I was genuinely hopeless at it. But it turned out I was getting marked down for my spelling and grammar the whole time. But I saw a dimension at university I was quite... I wanted to do it myself and then I realised quickly that I had to have help in the form of the disability services in Glasgow, and, which is good it's on offer but the problem is that you get the extra time but the marker themself isn't aware of my difficulties. So I will say eventually getting penalised for the more time I had, the more time I had to make mistakes and every mistake got penalised. Essentially, I was working kind of inverse.

David: I was gonna say because, teaching because I was going to ask, did you get in touch with the Disabilities Services while you were at Glasgow University because I thought you would have prepared for support from SAS to get the disability report supplied so that you could get maybe a specialist equipment or something, a laptop or something but also, it'd be like proofreaders that would help you with your essay. and also maybe they would put in extra time for your exams as well. So I was thinking that they would do that for you. I don't know whether you had done that or not.

Tom: I wish you were with me in uiversity, David. Those are sound suggestions. I only found out right there and you can get a bursary of some sort for learning aids and I didn't do that. Regarding a proofreader, I mean, I was pretty anxious to be frank with you with the whole thing and I was just every everything was either I was knocking my pan in to two in the morning or studying and just scraping a pass or getting a fail and I'm going to tell people '"this is the best piece of work of all time" and it's get it's getting like zero out of like 30 or something. But I was very self conscious. I found a proof reader or scribe and that kind of thing more difficult because I had that in school once and then, I think it was biology, so I was like saying I think it's D and the person will like make a face like "you sure about that?" and then I'd be like that, "Yes" and they're .... and the problem with these assignments are the school and the university exams are very old fashioned in the sense that you get an hour to write something for a lot of them, so it's essentially speed tests rather than about accuracy or content. So and I found I could read a lot quicker than type, which is why I never used a laptop which I probably should have.

David: Yeah, because that's one of the things you can do in an exam is you can use a laptop in an exam sort of thing, so instead of after the extra time, if your handwriting is bad, which I think it's a case for yourself

Tom: Your opinion of is too generous to think I would have thought that at that time. Like, if the First World Warhad meant you were just getting your head down, just  trying to get through it with gritted teeth but I should have tried different things to be honest because you're always doing what staring well in school, which was the handwritten stuff. But also I don't know about you, David but I find my dyslexia that spellcheck doesn't it's not actually the be-all-and-end-all in terms of answers because I missed word said or spell words a wee bit differently. So the word to, I spelled T O rather than T W O for example or something like that. So, like the marker, would think, Oh, he's lazy. Lazy, or slapdash, but it's actually I didn't know I was making these mistakes and spellcheck would't pick it up. 

David: You eventually qualified as a lawyer from Glasgow University and then went onto become a trainee lawyer. That's where some of your problems have occurred in the courts. So maybe for the listeners, maybe quantify what sort of problems you've had with your day to day business when you're in court or working with your clients when you were a trainee lawyer.

Tom: So it was my brother's firm that had nothing to do with the fact we were related, I was clearly the best person for the job. Albeit that we used to share bunk beds with each other [laughs]. It made sense, we knew each other, but I'm really sorry to everyone who lost out on that traineeship. So I started again, David, they will return to you if I did, I always tried to hide my dyslexia. And then I got, I had to use my phone cause I cannae read my handwriting properly, clearly makers at University couldn't either. So I use iPhone notes whichis a God send by the way, for your notes. YThe shorthand, I use it for everything. So I used it in court on a, I think I was making a brilliant point or something. And then a sherriff stopped me, "Mr McGovern it's very unprofessional for you to be using your phone in court."  As if I was on like, Tinder or something like that. And I was like that, "M'Lord", then it was like, kind of like sliding doors moment, I was like, it was quite busy. So I was up or down me I have just literally about a second week or something. My third week appeared in court, it's a very nerve-wracking environment. And I was like, "Lord, I'm actually dyslexic, that's why I'm using my phone. And I'm wondering though, I've told my lord that if you still got a problem with me doing that?" as a kind of pointed thing back at him, and then he's like that, no, of course, I don't have a problem with that just as long as you don't, which makes no sense to me. So I was just like, I just don't I have no problem with it. Can I continue? And then he was fine with that. So I'm at Hamilton Sheriff court, which I think is the second or third largest court in country -  Glasgow's the biggest -  and but I know a lot the sheriffs now at Hamilton just through family or nights out, and just in the corridors and stuff. So they all know me and they know I'm dyslexic. And they know I use my phone for that purpose. I'm not just playing like Candy Crush on it. Most of the time. I'm a, I'm using it to read submissions and notes, you know. But yeah, it was essentially speaking coarsely in the environment where you get put in the spotlight quite a lot. And I don't think it's that, that it's not common to have a learning difficulty in the first place doing it let alone having to state it as much, when you're appearing.

David: Yeah, that was... I was I was going to ask about the.... something we discussed with reasonable adjustments. Did you go to the court service? About reasonable adjustments in court? Because I think if the if the judges or sheriff is puuling you up for using your phone in court, they if you asked for these for reasonable adjustments in the court service, and its followed, then if you put something in place so that they will they maybe let the sheriff know that, "Oh, he's to have that." Maybe it's for that, or maybe you have some sort of tablet or something so that you can take notes Well, or have a recording device or something like that so they can record the audio format. So you could listen to what was said in court so you can help your your clients out. So that's what I was wondering?

Tom: David, where have you been all my life? [both laugh]

Tom: Problems,...I'm walking into straight punches here,  and you had all these ideas? I mean, no, I never thought of doing that, to be honest. Again, I was reticent to disclose my difficulty because criminal law is such a specific type of career. And there's very few young people in it. A lot of young people leave the profession because you're dealing with criminals and your heart you're getting so much client contact that you need to evoke a certain personality of confidence with the client and I look about 13. If listeners can't see it, or whatever,  but and they want their lawyer to be expereinced. So I was worried that clients would think less off me for having dyslexia or something like that. That's a nonsensical insecurity on my part, but that's why I didn't want to, it was only when I was putting up position in court when I was called unprofessional I suppose.

David: I thought because sometimes with some criminals that may be the case that they may have some sort of difficulties themselves whether it is a learning difficulty not, and theyt know that somebody like a lawyer or their lawyer has got learning difficulties, may give may help you build up that trust between yourself and your client, sort of thing?

Tom: That's actually how it's panned out,  to be honest with you. The work I've done with dyslexia the last six months and has kind of gone like that. But when I first started I said that, I think it was for a defence or a kind of like it's got a section 51a defence of insanity. And essentially that you're not fit to stand trial, and you get assessed by a petitioner. It's because the client was saying that he wasn't.... he had a learning difficulty and I htought he was going to say some extreme version of IQ or something like that and he said he had dyslexia. Mate, I've got dyslexia and I was the one to representing them. But the Yeah, it's just funny how it can. You're right, it does. Clients actually like it to be honest, and say thank God, he's like me. That wasn't my intention with it. You know, again, a lot of lawyers and young people in the profession are very concerned about acting a certain way and not losing face. But it's, I don't know about yourself or anything you've come across. But I think this, as I said, with dyslexia you just embrace it, then you find you don't really care if people run with you or not, because you're just you can't change it anyway. You know? 

David: Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking was the fact that maybe, if you kind of do embrace your own dyslexia, then you'll get that.... you probably know where to get the support, especially one place I think, especially your case will be a legal profession that you're... it will help you do your job better, and makes it easier because it's probably because your problem is, you probably know the legal stuff. But the problem is trying to do the reading, the writing. Things take longer than probably than somebody who hasn't gotten the specific learning difficulties that you've got. So that's why it's quite important to raise that sort of thing  the issues and discuss them as well. 

Tom: So the thing I've found is that when I when I was doing so bad at university compared to my contemporaries, I always thought I wasn't working hard enough. And it was true to some extent, because I found it very difficult to study. Because if you were given 30 pages to read over overnight, and I couldn't do that. But since I started job, it turns out that compared to others, I do a lot more house, I'm in the office at half, six in the morning, because I need to read over stuff before, or half or six or something like that. I'm away at, six, seven, and eight. So I do 12 hours in office a day. Because I'm very, I have to be very thorough. So it's kind of given me this work ethic that I don't think others have, because I've had to try and strategise  around it, and work around it. So just doing that volume of work you do but again, bringing a lot more work into the firm and you know, a lot more effective with clients in the court.

David: So what other strategies have you found that you had to do in terms of your day to day job, in terms of deal with clients deal with the court servicing, time managemnt, being scheduled to take everything done for to mske sure you've represented your client the best way? So what was the sort of strategies youve got?

Well, see to be honest David, I think you alluded to somewhat about that, I find the written work more difficult. So I've had to find ways to stand out in a crowd where a lot of people can do a 9 to 5 and they can do all the written stuff and they're very comfortable within that where I speak to quiet clients off hours a lot as I use my own phone as a communication tool which very few other trainees do to speak to clients and try and engage in social media as much as I can. And I mean in my business is it's about bringing in workand bringing in a client base and fortunately for myself and my firm calves that my skills are suited to bring in work and processing the work well, you know, albeit I've still got a way to go but I use my phone WhatsApp all the time and on the phone constantly you know so client care is my thing aand I'm very unapologetically myself because I've got no other option.

David: So obviously in response to you.. the interview you gave to BBC Scotland about wht happened to yourself with using your phone in court... what was your co workers response to that? Did you get good feedback?

So a Fiscal said I was just doing it for the fame, which is absolutely true [laughs], no everyone is genuinely supportive everyone's like "that's brilliant that you done that"; And she's like, "you're just doing that to get your name out"  People were really... I genuinely think it struck a chord somewhat because with young lawyers, because you have, it's all this, you have to look so professional, and you have to be so professional But what does that even mean at the end of the day, and I found that I can't change this thing, and I and I've always wanted to try and help people with dyslexia, but I've never quite had the platform or the ability to do so. And even now I've got some, I worked with people and being a court lawyer you are listened to to a small degree that has given me the opportunity to do that, to be honest, and I couldn't be happier to do a I'd love to speak to people about it and try and help more people, you know,

David: you've got a support group. For those people who are dyslexic in the legal profession. Want to go into  more detail what that's about then?

Tom: So I'd say it's actually it's actually all disabilities. Disabling Barriers Scotland. Remember the name. So me and another trainee around the time I was doing the BBC interview and a few other interviews, actually who's dyspraxic and based in, Dundee, Fraser Mackay. We are working with the Law Society. And we're both have similar situation both wanted to try and expand our views and try and speak to people like minded and essentially try and change. Now, there's equivalent groups in England, but I can't I don't think there's ever been in Scotland anyway. One of them. Allan Sinclair the guy's name is, is a partner, at a big firm is a million times more successful than I'll ever be but he's, dyslexic and he's part of the group and there's about 30 or 40 of us, and all sorts of...you;re talking, ADHD, autism, narcolepsy, cerebral palsy, you know, dyspraxia, physical injuries, you know, but it's I like to think of as a trade union for people, persons with disabilities, where we can come together and these different issues that are dormant and making, trying to get some representation and change a profession, which, to be honest, there's not been a lot of over the past number of years. 

David: If anybody who's from the legal profession has got some sort of disability, and want to get in contact with you, how would they get in contact with you? 

Tom: Just shout it as loud as you can.

David: Have you got an email address or anything?

Tom: We're on LinkedIn, troops.  So Disabling Barriers Scotand and I'm on Twitter and stuff like that - Thomas McGovern or maybe Tom McGovern. Yeah, so even if just for the chat, and see, to be honest, the group has students as well, university students who Fraser and others and I had finding the path to the profession very, very difficult. Albeit, there's barriers within the profession. Including one if you don't mind me going into briefly. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Yep. Right.

Tom: Do you know anywhere that doesn't have 4G capability? Now, you know how, like, back in the day, your phone would say no service, but it's quite rare now? Yes. Right. So Glasgow Sheriff court, the busiest court in Europe, well done. The basement of it says a basement which about half the cases are called in and has no 4G capability or no mobile data, right? And we use not because of the but I think it's partly the reason we use a digitised system, unlike a lot of firms have paper files, we use computers, and I cannot access my files in that basement. Now, I LinkedIn about this and Tweeted about this and I was speaking to the estate manager at Glasgow Sheriff Court, and it's coming up at the next meeting, with the people that provide the servers but that there needs to be some sort of internet access, which isn't just a rubbish Wi Fi code, you know, which I think's the status now, but it's a sounds quite innocuous, but see when you cannae even read your writing, you really need to use your files. 

David: Yeah, I was going to ask about the Wi Fi down in the basement.

Tom: It's like a rubbish thing. But you know that Wi Fi were like, it's like two and a half megabytes as opposed to like 300. So like, I think you can open an email on it. You can't, like load a Word document on it properly or search online. So it's no, it's no  efficient for the needs of the court or what you need to represent your client.

David: What improvements would you like to see happen within the legal profession then in terms of, probably disabilities generally, but maybe more specific for yourself, somebody whose got a learning disability, to help you be able to do your job?

Tom: I may get in trouble for saying this but I found that actually some of the sheriff's quite difficult, I find some of them very very supportive including one at Hamilton who was one of the guests because our disability group but it's an environment of, it's very very old fashioned and the formality I totally understand and I totally respect that but I feel as if myself and other other disabilities get a very tough day from the sheriffs and it's that environment where there's no accountability to the sheriffs and they can speak to you know with without any repercussions now I will say a lot of them are very good but it is quite difficult when maybe I'm struggling processing something and I'm getting shouted out or called not good enough with my clients standing there which other people don't need to get so a you need to develop a thick skin but I'd say it's more a changing of attitudes. I found more than a just now there's also things like websites we use are very difficult to read and very difficult to follow stuff like that, so it's specific stuff like that also just a general changing attitudes towards one more compassion rather than kind of adversary.

David: What advice would give to somebody who has got a learning difficulty who wants to make a career in the legal profession become a lawyer -  what advice would you give to that person who wants to be a lawyer?

Tom: become a footballer. Go into acting. [laughter] I'll be honest, I mean I'll put...necessity I have to do a lot more hours than a standard trainee. I don't know I can't speak for anyone else with dyslexia or anything but I mean, if you've came to this point, when you're professional, you graduated uni or you're doing a job that  or a trade that you do like, yyou'll have found your strategies in place and ways of learning or understanding that's led you to this point, and to try and double down on those and try and work as much as you can to improve your weaknesses but it's , I mean, try to be unapologetic yourself and you can always get better at anything you know that see that "I'm terrible at this I'm rubbish at this" or someone says you're rubbish at it. Just work more and you'll get better at it. 

David: You just have from Tom discussing the improvements he wants to see in the legal profession across Scotland for those people who are dyslexic. You have come to the end of my podcast interview  with Tom McGovern. With me, David, Thomson, and I want to thank Tom for giving up the time to do that interview. I will talk to entrepreneur and book publisher Mark Bird in the next episode, I will discuss with Mark how he made his book publishing company, Publish You, a more dyslexic friendly organisation. If you enjoyed this podcast, they say thanks by becoming a member of Dyslexia Scotland, for as little as 10 pounds per year. Members help us to keep working for a dyslexia-friendly Scotland. You'll get a whole heap of benefits for joining. Show you support for our work by visiting dyslexiascotland.org.uk forward slash shop.