Dyslexic Lawyer | Alan Sinclair

David chats with lawyer and Dyslexia Scotland Ambassador about how he navigates the legal profession with dyslexia.

Hear the real-life stories of dyslexic people in Scotland.
With thanks to Dyslexia Scotland Podcast Volunteer David Thomson.

Want more great dyslexia content and community news? Join Dyslexia Scotland as a member to access exclusive articles, videos, magazines and much more.

Transcript

David: Welcome to the last episode of The Let's Talk Dyslexia series with me David Thompson, on behalf of Dyslexia Scotland.
In this episode, I will be talking to lawyer Alan Sinclair. Alan's a liquidation lawyer  and is a partner of Addleshaw Goodard. According to their website, Alan works in commercial districts for hteir clients which can range from financial institutions, to small and medium sized enterprises.
Like criminal lawyer Tom McGovern, who you heard in the first episode of the series, Alan is also dyslexic. You might have heard Tom mentioned Alan in that first episode, whenTom was discussing setting up the group Disabling Barriers Scotland.
We hear from Alan to introduce himself to you, the listeners.
Alan: My name is Alan Sinclair, I'm a solicitor. I've been working as a lawyer for about 20 years. And in terms of my dyslexia, I found out I was dyslexic when I was in primary four at school, so I would probably have been, you know, about eight or nine, I suppose at that stage, at nine, ten. It was it was sort of picked up by a school teacher who sort of recognised at that stage that despite the fact that I was displaying signs of being reasonably intelligent, my written work wasn't sort of reflecting that so, wasn't completing written exercises, spelling was atrocious. Bs and Ds were being put the wrong way around as in the handwriting, that sort of thing. And so he suggested to my parents that I get an assessment for dyslexia. And it so happened that mum and dad had a friend who was an educational psychologist, and he did the assessment with me, and it was sort of identified that at that stage.
David: So in terms of when you were at school, what kind of support did you get when you found out that you were dyslexic in primary four? Did you get the support in place by the school to help you get through both primary school then maybe onto secondary school? 
Alan: Yeah, well, so it's interesting, although I was identified as being dyslexic. When I was that age, my parents didn't actually tell me that. So I first found out I was dyslexic, when I was in fourth year at school, so at that stage I would have been about 15 or so. And, and it was coming up to the prelims for what was then standard grades. And my guidance teacher at that stage said to me, "well Alan, we're going to have to have a chat about what support we're going to put in place for you for your dyslexia." And I said, "what dyslexia?" because, bit of a of a miscommunication between my parents and the school, they just decided not to tell me about it. I don't know whether that was because they didn't want me using it as an excuse, or what the reason for they didn't want me to feel different. But they had taken the decision not to do that. And so, as I said, I didn't find out about it until much later. And so I was sort of unaware of any support that was being given to me in primary school. I do remember that, from time to time, I was taken out of the main class, and spent time with in a smaller group with kids that had additional support needs. I wouldn't have known what that phrase meant, at that time. But you know, kids who are maybe struggling about in school, I was sort of spending a bit of time with them. And, and then when I went to high school, I think I performed better when I got to high school than I did in primary school. Still had issues, obviously, with spelling and grammar and the rest of it. But I managed to maybe mask them a little bit better when I got to secondary. And so I don't really remember any support being given for it until I got to the stage where I was setting prelims. And at that stage, they asked me whether I wanted to try sitting with a scribe. And so I gave that a try. And it didn't really work very well for me. And so the alternative was to get extra time for for the prelims. And so I was assessed for that and sort of just got extra time. But, you know, I think that this was the early '90s that we're talking about here, and I'm not sure that there was as much support back then as maybe there is now.
David: And so you probably went to university then to do obviously the law degree as a lawyer, and did you get any support when you went to university because you talked about the support at school, in terms of dyslexia, did you get much support and see a difference between going from school to university?
Alan: I was assessed again, for dyslexia when I started university. And that was, I think, to really determine how much extra time I should get in the university exams. And so I did that, and then I don't really, I'm not really aware of being given much other support, I think at that stage, there was maybe a brief discussion about how I might be able to manage things, because one of the issues that I would have, that I had, as a dyslexic university student was note taking, and trying to sort of keep up with the pace of a lecture with notes. And one, I think one of the things that was suggested to me was, you know, if you can speak to a mate, they can maybe give you their notes, then that might help. And a really good friend University, a guy called Callum who is still a friend, who gave me all these notes from all the lectures, and that made a huge difference to me. But that was more of a sort of informal support from the university, I wasn't really given much in the way of formal support for that.
David: Did you then get much in terms of support to do the exams? Sort of help to maybe do your essays, whatever then, from the university while you were studying to become a lawyer?  
Alan: Yeah, no, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say at that stage, there was a huge amount of support. Again, we're still talking that sort of late '90s by this point, and as I said, I'm pretty sure things have moved on since since those days. 
David: It must have been a bit of a challenge for you to go on to be qualified as a lawyer, then maybe in the '90s, turn of  the millennium, to go into the workplace where it's very much written-orientated, the types of legal jargon you have to learn and have to write. I presume was that was a bit of a challenge as you went into the workplace.
Alan: Yeah. So that's right. Because, you know, the job of a lawyer is predominantly reading and writing, you know, whether it's pleadings for a court case, or you know, whether it's long letters or, you know, writing witness statements, these sorts of things. It's, it's very language heavy. And so that does present a challenge because it takes me longer to read things and longer to produce written work. And but I didn't ever tell anyone that I was dyslexic. I never mentioned that in any job applications. And I didn't mention it to my employers when I started. So when when you finish your studies at university, the next stage to becoming a solicitor is doing a two year traineeship. And so I think I was a bit concerned that if I told anyone during my two-year traineeship, people would think "oh, we're not very sure about having someone who's got any kind of difficulty with language", when that's really what the job of a lawyer was. So So I sort of kept that to myself and just tried as much as I could to find ways of of coping,to sort of continue to mask it.
David: In terms of coping strategies, again, to try to hide the fact that you're dyslexic What was that? Did you have to blend into the workplace to try and make sure that you do the work for your clients or for your employer that you have to do to make sure it's up to high standards when delivering a service for your clients?
Alan: Yeah, so I mean, it depends on the task that you're being asked to do. So. As a younger lawyer, one of the things that you have to do quite a lot is note taking, whether it's note taking meetings or court hearings, and that sort of thing. And what I really just had to learn to do as much as possible was to try and abbreviate things as quickly as I could so almost create my own sort of shorthand for taking notes because I was trying to write everything out, as it was being said, I would just simply never be able to keep up.And then the other thing that I would sort of learn to do is to sort of get my notes typed on dictated soon after, so that I could use my memory of what had been said to, to fill in the blanks as to what was written on the page. And, as I got more senior, you know, what I do know, a lot of it is more than management of cases, then you sort of learn to rely on your team a bit more. And so, you know, my note taking abilities are, are much less important now, because I normally have a more junior member of the team in meetings or, or at court with me to sort of keep up with that sort of stuff. Very often, I'll have more junior guys and the team produce the first draft of a document as well, which I can then correct, or revise. And it means that where I can add value is in things like meetings where we're talking about strategy, and that sort of thing. And, you know, asdyslexic can do that as well, and perhaps better than, than other people can. So, you know, I've got no difficulties in, you know, coming up with with the ideas as to how we might approach a case.
 David: So I  presume that your employers probably more aware that you are dyslexic, so in terms of more recently, have you noticed any support that your employer has maybe put in place for you to try to help you deal with your dyslexia because of maybe over the last maybe 20,30 years of being a lawyer that you've been that maybe that coping mechanism has actually helped you to play your own strategies strategies into the workplace.
Yeah, so I didn't talk about my dyslexia until really quite recently. So I first started being open about it within the firm, maybe about 12 to 18 months ago was when I first started talking about it. And then that even then, that was only to sort of a select few people. And then probably from around about November, or December last year, was when I started to make it more widely known. So this is the, this is the third legal firm that I've that I've worked in. So it's the only one that's really had an opportunity to offer any support. And one of the main reasons why I did start speaking more openly about it is actually our firm is quite enthusiastic about diversity and inclusion, and do a lot more than pay lip service to it, you know, they're, they really follow through on that. And so I felt much more comfortable being open about it than I ever would have previously. And so, to be honest I've not been given much in the way of formal support; what I have been given us a great deal of encouragement, to continue to speak openly about it. And to sort of encourage others to be to be open about it, because the firm does offer support. And one of the things that the firm does, for example, is offer coaching for people who have dyslexia or other neurodiversities where they get  free sessions with someone who can help them with, for example, systems to keep themselves more organised and that sort of thing. So I have used that support. And that's been helpful. But I think you're right, you know, I've been working for 20 years. And so broadly find ways of coping with the difficulties that I've got, you know, and whilst any support is always, always welcome, I'm probably at a stage where, you know, I've managed to muddle through through myself, and I've got a bit set in my ways about how I do things.
David: Do oyu think the reason why it's taken you to actually come out, in maybe the last 18 months is because of the stigma in relation to the legal profession with maybe, people who have got dyslexia it will be more generally about people who are maybe disabled or got some sort of difficulties themselves to try and help those people who have got those conditions. Sort of hting. Do oyu think it's still a stigma?
Alan: Yeah, I think things are improving particularly in the realms of neurodiversity, you know, you hear a lot more people eulogising the benefits of having a neurodiverse workforce. But for me, certainly, you know, up until a couple of years ago, I still did feel like there was a stigma involved, particularly with with dyslexia, and particularly in the legal profession. And I had always thought that, you know, no matter how understanding a client might say they are, that it must be human nature for them to think, well, you know, if I've got a lawyer who's got any kind of difficulty with language, then you know that that can't be optimal. But I think since I've, since I've been more open about it, the way that it's been received has made me perhaps have more faith in human nature. And that was back then than I had before. 
David: In that case, has being dyslexic made you a beeter lawyer, because you kind of touched on it briefly there with maybe helping your clients out better so it could be helpful you being dyslexic, you think your work has actually helped you be a better lawyer?
Alan: Yeah, so it's difficult to say because, you know, I've, I've never been anything other than dyslexic. So it's really difficult to compare. But from what I've read, there tends to be a few traits of dyslexics that I think I identify with. So you do read that dyslexics tend to be quite empathetic people and that really helps in relationships with clients. And certainly I've had feedback from clients that centre around that, and I think I'm pretty good at sort of taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, when you're trying to think about a strategy for solving a problem that our client has, I think I'd take quite a holisticview of those kinds of things. And as I say, I think that's one of the things that dyslexics tend to be credited with. So my guess is that there are several ways in which being dyslexic as has made me a better lawyer. But as I say, it's quite difficult to identify them having never been anything else. 
Is there any improvements you'd like to see for dyslexics who are in the workplace, that you've probably noticed over the last number of years and maybe more recently, when you feel that you are dyslexic, and like you see take place not just in your office, but  more in terms of the legal profession itself?
Alan: I'm fortunate that I work in a big firm, and so that that brings a few benefits with it. One of them is that, you know, we have a whole team devoted to diversity and inclusion, which means that, you know, there's a constant message out there about the benefits that that brings. And so, culturally, a big firm is, and particularly this firm, is a good place to be dyslexic, because you can bring yourself your own self to work and feel comfortable in the environment. And then the second benefit that it brings us is the access to infrastructure and technology. So, you know, the sorts of voice to text technology and text to voice technology. And all of these sorts of supports are there if you need it. And there are big teams. So you know, if there are things that I'm not good at that, you know, there's someone in the team who can can pick that up and, and be a support. I think, where there's probably more difficulty is in that part of the profession where there isn't that availability of those kinds of resources. And so one of the things that that we need to be doing, I think, is showing good examples of people who have gone into the legal profession with dyslexia and have succeeded. Because, you know, I know that I did feel quite alone, in not being able to talk about it. And it's been a great relief to be able to, to now do that. And so, I don't like the idea of people sort of entering the profession afresh and not being able to have that openness. But I think I think we can only do that if we're showing the rest of the profession that that people with that sort of neurodivergent condition can succeed. 
David: So, if somebody came forward and said, I'm dyslexic, and I want to put some sort of reasonable adjustment in place, would there be a process in place within the company that you're working for that could actually do that, in getting the reasonable adjustments that you need put in place for, to help them deal with their everyday job.
Alan: Yeah, it's something that I've been offered and haven't taken up yet. But there is an assessment that you can go through to see what reasonable adjustments can be made. And I know that you know, anyone that's gone through that process, it's been a it's been a positive one. Yeah, and, you know, it shouldn't be you know, that my view is that that shouldn't be available, you know, wherever you wherever you work.
David: What advice would you give to somebody who has probably entering the legal profession who maybe has a dyslexic background and maybe feels kind of alone and isolated? Like maybe you were 20 years ago when you atarted out in your career. What advice would you give to somebody who wants a career in being a layer?
Alan: Yeah. So the first thing I'd do is, is, I would be very honest with them, and say that, you're going to have to work really hard, because no matter how much you put in place, in the way of reasonable adjustments, and those sorts of things, and no matter how receptive, you're firm are to working with dyslexic staff, it is going to take longer to read certain things, and it's going to take longer to produce some kind of written work. And so that's probably going to be reflected in the hours that, you know, you have to spend in the office or are working at home. And, you know, regardless of how open we are, that that's just going to be a reality. But the other thing I would say to them as that I, I and other people I know who have been open about their dyslexia in the legal profession have generally been well received. And I would try and encourage them to be more open about it. I was always... my dyslexia caused me embarrassment on a few occasions. And, you know, I remember one of those was that I was asked to take notes for counsel after hearing. And then counsel asked to see those notes immediately after the hearing took place. And it was, it was a horrible feeling, handing over this dog's breakfast of, you know, spiders legs across, across a page. And but I didn't feel at that stage because I sort of hidden my dyslexia, didn't I feel like I can be open about why that was why that was the reason. And I think anyone going into the profession now, I would say to them, you can, you can avoid that kind of embarrassment, if you're just open with people and people understand, and actually, more people than you realise, are touched by dyslexia. So I sort of thought when I would be open about it, that people wouldn't know what it was, or wouldn't understand it. But the amount of people who have said to me, since I've been open about it, "I've got son that's dyslexic, I've got a daughter, I've got a brother, an uncle" but whatever it might be people understand and people understand that it's no reflection on your intelligence. And, you know, if you do fall down in some way and relate, you know, in relation to your use of language, you know, people will understand that, and it's better for them to know that that's the reason than to be concealing, I think.
David: Do you think that the stigma of being dyslexic has actually got less and has actually been been quite helpful with, in terms of, being open about it, getting the necessary suport, particularly within the legal profession itself?
Alan: Yeah, I think this I think the stigma, as far as I'm concerned has has lessened, you know, used to hit a lot more people telling jokes about dyslexia, you know, and I think that sort of thing is much less commonplace because it feels like it touches more and more people and you know, we're much more adept at identifying it now, whereas many cases previous previously sort of went undiagnosed. So I think all of that helps to reduce the stigma. 
David: You've touched out from our discussion what advice you'd give to anybody who's at the legal profession and is dyslexic. You've come to the end of the podcast that me David Thompson, has done with Alan Sinclair, and I'd like to thank Alan for giving up his time to do the podcast. You've also come to theend of the current series of Let's Talk dyslexia. I'd like to thank you the rest of us on behalf of Dyslexia Scotland for listening to this podcast or the other podcast during the current series. Please look at all the Dyslexia Scotland website and social media for further updates or the new series. If you enjoyed this podcast, the nsay thanks by becoming a member of Dyslexia Scotland for as little as 10 pounds per year. Members help us to keep working for a dysleixa-friendly Scotland. You'll get a whole heap of benefits for joining. Show your support for our work by visiting www dot dyslexic scotland.org.uk forward slash shop. For information about the let's talk dyslexia podcast series, please check out our website at www dot dyslexia scotland.org.uk. Or you could check out our Facebook page@www.facebook.com forward slash dyslexia Scotland or the Twitter page at dyslexic Scotland.