The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Fallibility in Faith: The Adam Debate
Dive deep into the intricate relationship between human fallibility, sin, and divine sovereignty in our latest podcast episode. We analyze the profound implications of Adam's fall as detailed in Genesis, challenging listeners to consider whether Adam was infallible or succumbed to his nature. Through engaging discussions, we navigate the topics that question how sin relates to God's glory and the overarching narrative of redemption woven throughout scripture.
Join us as we unpack essential theological concepts—does sin ultimately highlight God's righteousness, and how does divine sovereignty mesh with our choices? We delve into thought-provoking passages from Romans that assert human unrighteousness reveals God's goodness while wrestling with the uncomfortable reality of God's sovereignty in the face of evil.
This isn't merely an academic exercise; it’s an invitation to reevaluate our beliefs and engage in the dialogue surrounding fundamental questions of faith. Our exploration touches on how God’s attributes are magnified in suffering and how His plans are never thwarted by human actions. We implore our listeners to reflect on their understanding of God and the nature of sin—challenging outdated notions of an angry deity while revealing a God whose glory is profoundly evident in grace, mercy, and justice.
Don't miss this opportunity to deepen your understanding and engage with us as we grapple with these pivotal questions! We invite you to subscribe to the podcast, share your thoughts, and let us know how these discussions impact your faith journey.
voice that was walking in the cool of the cool of the morning, rather than to lean on their own understanding.
Speaker 2:All right, Haz. Are you back yet? Yes, sir.
Speaker 4:Hi, sorry, my child woke up.
Speaker 2:That's all right, so can you take a question?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, so I'm reading out of Genesis. I'm going to read a verse out of Genesis, chapter 3.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 2:The question that I've been asking everybody is whether or not Adam, if he was fallible or infallible. So, keeping in mind that question, let me read to you this verse and ask you how you interpret it, how you understand it. It says this for God does know that in the day that you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and he shall be as God's knowing good and evil. This is what. This is what the serpent says to the woman. You shall not surely die, for God does know that in the day that you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be open and you shall be as God's knowing good and evil. So when he says here, for God knows that in the day that you eat thereof, what does he mean? Why does he say in the day that you eat thereof in your mind?
Speaker 4:I'm not too sure. I feel like I'd have to go look at it myself. Sorry, I'm really not good at that. I need to actually visually see the verse.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, take a look at Genesis 3, verse 5, if you can.
Speaker 4:All right, give me two seconds, thank you.
Speaker 2:And then we'll come back Chosen frozen, my sister Rebecca. What do you think about that?
Speaker 5:That they was given a commandment that they would surely die if they ate from the tree right.
Speaker 2:I mean here here's how I see it, and I'm open to anybody to to jump in on this one and disagree or agree, it doesn't matter either way. But there seems to be this indication that adam was definitely fallible. Now we have to believe that he was fallible, from my understanding, because if he was infallible then he would never have sinned.
Speaker 5:Well, yeah, so Adam's proven to be fallible when he disobeyed God. Right, he missed the mark. So what is sin? It's missing the mark. So he's proven of being fallible. Is that he actually disobeyed God. And if we are to say that anybody apart from God is infallible, we've created an idol for ourselves, because only God is pure, only God is righteous, only God is infallible. Obviously in his word, only God in his word, like there's nothing else, we're creating ourselves a little idol. If we put anything in that realm, that's what I would say.
Speaker 2:That's what I sort of agree with. You sort of get this idea that it was already sort of presupposed that at some point Adam would fall At some point. It says in that verse five that in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die In that day.
Speaker 5:Adam didn't fall, christ didn't come for a plan B from Adam's fall. So God didn't see Adam fall, scratch his head and go oh no, what am I going to do? The man in the garden fell. What am I going to do? Oh, I'll bring my son. That never happened. Adam fell so Christ could come and bring all glory back to God. So the full scenario is the plan of God's perfect redemption, but ultimately then brings glory back to God.
Speaker 2:What you just said is such an important point for the larger body of Christ to really lay hold of, the larger body of Christ to really lay hold of Because there's this, there's this idea that prevails with a lot of people who claim to be Christian that says God's plan was somehow frustrated by Adam's fall, and I don't believe that the Bible is in concurrence with that.
Speaker 5:Then you've got to add real quick I know Paz wants to say something You've got to add that God learns from man, that God reacts to man and God learns from man. So even the position where people say God looked through the corridors of time and seen what Adam would do, so then Christ was the reaction, then you've completely stripped God of his sovereignty because you're now putting that God has to learn from man or react to man's decisions and man's choices. And I know Paz wanted to say something real quick. And then I think Luke wants to add to it as well.
Speaker 2:All right, so Paz you first, and then Luke.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was just quickly sad to Chosen, and when she said about it being for the glory of God, it was also so that, like, obviously the glory of God, so that we can see the full extent of all of God's attributes in their fullness, so the fullness of his love, of his mercy, of his faithfulness, his of his mercy, of his faithfulness, his wrath, his holiness, et cetera. So without all of it, we wouldn't have ever seen all of those attributes sinfulness or the glory of God.
Speaker 2:So would you say that Adam's fall Paz?
Speaker 4:would you say that his fall was a part of the design of God? I don't know if I'd say it was a part of the design, because I don't think God orchestrates evil, so I'm not too sure on that. So I don't know.
Speaker 6:I don't know.
Speaker 3:All right, fair enough. I honestly think that.
Speaker 2:Hold on one second, boys. Hold on one second. Let me get Luke first, and then I'm going to come back to you. Okay, I promise you. Luke, are you there? Yes, sir, I'm here All right. Brother, give us something.
Speaker 1:All right. So I mean, okay, jesus Revelation 13, 8, 1 Peter, 1, verse 20 talks about Jesus Christ, the Lamb who slain before the foundation of the earth. Yes, right, in fact, we could go to something like Acts 4, 27 and 28. Which says that there were gathered in your holy city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Jews and the Greeks, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And then we go like Genesis 50, right, when we got Joseph there and he's talking to um, his brothers, and they finally realized who he is, they realized that they could, that you know that they could be put to death right there, for, for this, this, uh, you know what they did to him. Right, he's pharaoh's right hand man, right, and what does he see? Obviously, uh, joseph forgives them.
Speaker 1:Right there, in, in verse 20 of genesis 50, he says what you meant for evil, god meant for good. He might save his people out of, out of the, out of the, uh, the famine. Right, right, um, in fact, um, depending on your translation, um, uh, isaiah, uh, 45 verse 7 will say you know, god, god, I create calamity and I create wellbeing. I form light and make darkness. I, the Lord do all these things. But some translations say I create evil and make wellbeing Um.
Speaker 1:God is not the author of evil, he's not the, he's not the um, the primary, uh, or I should say the um adjacent cause of evil. But but he is, or he is the ordainer of all things, which includes evil. We see that again in genesis 50. We see that again in um acts 4, 27, 28, right that herod and pilot and all these people did what god's hand and pre-plan and predestined take place. Or like ephesians 111, that um that in him we have obtained redemption, um, having been predestined according to the purpose of him. He works all things according to the counsel of his will.
Speaker 1:There's so much scripture I go through, like verse by verse, that shows that God absolutely decrees all things, including the evil that takes place. But he does so in such a way that he is not the primary uh working agent. What? And he does this through the removal of his restraining grace, because ultimately we are all true dead in our sins, we are all truly evil and apart from god's restraining races upon our lives, we would be, and apart from god's restraining graces upon our lives we would be like the most heinous, evil people on the planet that's probably ever lived. But because, but through god's restraining grace, he he keeps us from from working out the most evil desires of our hearts.
Speaker 2:Hey, man brother, listen, let me tell you something right now. I don't know how many people you got following you on your, on your profile and all that kind of stuff like that, but I can tell you this much you keep talking like this, you're not going to have very many people listen.
Speaker 1:Hey man, I got the 5000 this way bro.
Speaker 2:You know, because, because, because there is not one thing you said that I disagree with. Not one thing, not one thing you said. But these are the things that most Christians are afraid to discuss. Oh, absolutely, these are the things that most Christians are afraid to discuss. But what you're talking about right now, these things are essential to the nature of God. Just because God ordains it something doesn't mean he's morally responsible for your actions as a free moral agent. Amen.
Speaker 2:And this is the problem that so many people have they don't understand how god can be sovereign and and ordain these things. But here's the thing. What's worse him ordaining these things that happen and not being the author of sin or knowing is going to happen, and allowing it to happen anyway, when he could have stopped it right, absolutely, this is what I don't understand with people. If you, if you say that god has just left the earth to be subject, to have his providence be subject to the whims of man, what kind of a God is that? What kind of a God is that?
Speaker 2:But when I read in in Isaiah 46 and and the funny thing is Luke I went to Isaiah 45 because I was ready to respond, and you went to it yourself, but in Isaiah 46,. God says this In Isaiah 46, 9. He says remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is none else. I am God and there is none like me. But listen to what he says in verse 10, that he declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all of my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Johnny Bravo, you there yes, sir, brother, I'm here now I want to ask you what does it mean when he says that, when God says that he declares the end from the beginning, let's start with that what? What does that mean?
Speaker 6:He declares yeah, yeah, I was going to respond to that. Obviously, God decrees whatsoever comes to pass. God is not an open theist, he's not a Molinist, he's not an Arminian. In fact, those views raise all kinds of impossibilities about God's nature, because if God before he decreed you, you didn't exist. So did God just roll the dice and look down the course? That would mean he learned something. So there's inconsistencies. I know it's philosophical that way. However, we don't need philosophy. But if philosophically it causes all kinds of issues and I was going to say, obviously God decrees everything.
Speaker 2:We know that Let me ask you a question. Why do you say it's obvious that he declares that? He decrees, everything.
Speaker 6:Oh yeah, it's obvious because, for example, Ephesians 1.11 says God works all things after the counsel of his will. Sin was necessary, God, not that God needs sin to be holy. However, sin was necessary to enter the world, to demonstrate the glory of God. For example, you say wait a minute. You're saying sin glorifies God. Well, hold on a minute. How about Paul says in Romans chapter Now, this is a hard issue for a lot of people, this text right here.
Speaker 2:I apologize, don't say it, brother, just read it Once you know the meaning behind this.
Speaker 6:Well, there's actually a couple passages. Okay, I'm going to read them. He says right here but if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of god, what shall we say? Is god unrighteous who takes vengeance? I speak as a man, so paul has this imaginary opponent in his mind. What he's saying is is if our sin demonstrates the goodness, the righteousness of god, in other words, if my sin demonstrates the goodness, the righteousness of God, in other words, if my sin demonstrates his goodness, then isn't God unjust to inflict his wrath?
Speaker 6:Paul says God forbid, for how shall God judge the world? In other words, if there's no sin, there's no way for God to display his grace. There's no way for God to display his love and mercy. There's no sin. There's no need for Christ to die. There's no need for Christ to demonstrate God to demonstrate his grace. There's no way for God to display his love and mercy. There's no sin. There's no need for Christ to die. There's no need for God to demonstrate his glory in redeeming sin, because when God gives grace and forgives sin, that brings him glory. If there's no sin, there's no way for God to display his holy justice judgment, and that ultimately brings him glory.
Speaker 2:Now see that right there, brother, is what I was waiting to hear you say yep, yep and where do you get to that?
Speaker 6:it's just oh yeah, and it's just right, it's just for. And also, what does verse 7 say? Now get this if the truth of god hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory, why am I still judged as a sinner? In other words, if I'm a god glorifier, haven't I done a good thing? What are you going to judge me as a sinner for? But is it a contract here? Let me ask you a question is it a contradiction for god to judge god glorifiers?
Speaker 2:now. Now here's what I want to, here's what I want to ask you in that one, because now we're going into a territory that I'm not sure. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt yeah, right here in the text.
Speaker 6:Yeah, let me finish the text first, right, all right, where are you again? I'm sorry, romans, romans 3, verse 5 through 8, got it? I got it says in verse 8 and people are saying, paul, you're saying sin glorifies god. And what were paul saying? And neither or not. Some were slanderously reported, as some affirm that we say people are saying paul, if our sin glorifies god, then shouldn't we continue in sin, because you know right, if we sin, our lie abounds to his glory. Let's just continue in sin. Our sin brings about his righteousness.
Speaker 6:And that's not what Paul said. Paul didn't say let us do evil, that good may come. Right, look it. Let us do evil, that good may come. Whose damnation is just Now. Let me ask you a question. It unpacks this text perfectly. Is good going to come from you doing evil? Is good going to come from you doing evil? Is good going to come from me doing evil? No, right, and guess what is? Verse seven says their lie abounds to his glory. That's a lie. In other words, their damnation is just so, their lie abounded to God's glory.
Speaker 6:So the question is, when he says why am I still judged as a sinner If I'm doing such a good thing for God by bringing him glory through my sin, what are you going to punish me as a sinner for? Is it a contradiction?
Speaker 5:No, because what we mean for evil, god can mean for good, and everything works together for the love of those.
Speaker 6:So, in other words, for the good of those who love God.
Speaker 5:But that doesn't make me wake up in the morning and go. Do you know what? Just give tons of sin. Because within me, striving for righteousness, God is glorified, Because ultimately everything is to bring glory to God.
Speaker 6:Yes, and that's posing the question here, right? It's not a contradiction, right? Because, God gets glory just as much as he does as wrath and his justice as he does his mercy and grace. So sin was necessary to enter the world to demonstrate all the attributes of God. And is that what Romans 9 says? What if God?
Speaker 6:is willing to show his wrath and he's not just being well. Yeah, I'm willing, no, wishing, desiring strongly to do it. We know he did. Have you read the Old Testament? Absolutely. There's a lot of things that go on there, what even atheists say you're god's evil. If you just read the old testament, they say you're god's evil oh, they do.
Speaker 2:They do that a lot. Spartan you there, brother or sister, I don't know if what you are.
Speaker 7:Yet yes, sir, how you doing brother another blessed day to be alive, living in christ, all by the grace of God, thank you. How?
Speaker 2:are you? I'm doing all right, man, I'm doing all right. Thank you for asking. I really appreciate it. So you heard what my brother, johnny Bravo, was just saying right now. Do you have anything to add to that? What do you do you agree with them? Disagree with them? What do you think?
Speaker 7:think I agree with him, that you know, we know God's not the author of confusion throughout, throughout God's written word that we have here, his Bible. He can take any bad scenario, he can take any, any evil thing and turn it to ultimately glorify, further glorify, his name. I see it, as in my specific studies, I see it for us humans as a learning curve. You know, when we walk with the Holy Spirit and we slip up, that slip up due to the constant fighting between the spirit and our flesh when I say learning curve, it's being guided by the Holy Spirit. We can then learn from that slip up and we can learn from it further on down the road.
Speaker 7:Let's say, a presentation happens again towards us where we can slip but we can reflect oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. That happened to me last time, you know, two years ago. Let me try doing this this time. And then ultimately, there's where the learning curve is. We can make a decision then to not do something which then to to me, ultimately gives us spiritual growth in Christ. Right, I'm with you on that one Paz are you there, sister Paz, are you there?
Speaker 4:Hi sorry.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm going to ask you a question. Another verse. All right, I'm going to ask you a question, another verse. So when God was speaking to the prophet Isaiah, speaking about the abominations that he felt Israel had been committing, he says in Isaiah 66, they have chosen their own ways and their soul delights in their abominations. And then God says this strong words I will choose their delusions and will bring their fears upon them, because when I called, they did not answer. When I spoke, they did not hear. And then he says but they did evil before my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight. Here's my question when he says I will choose their delusions and bring their fears upon them, does that make him a sinner or one who commits a sinful act by choosing their delusions? And if so, how, and if not, why? It's Isaiah 66, verse three and four.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say no.
Speaker 2:And why would you say no? How do you rationalize? How do you rationalize? How do you tell that unbeliever who reads this verse to you and says this makes God wicked and evil? He chooses delusions and causes them to you know, to fall for it simply because they won't hear, or simply because they did not answer when he called. So now he sends them a delusion. Doesn't that make him a wicked God?
Speaker 4:So you have to forgive me, I'm not the best at answering questions. Sometimes I would have to say no, because it feels like God gives us over to the desires of our own hearts. That doesn't make God the sinner.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't. You're right about that, Luke. What do you say, brother?
Speaker 1:I don't know, hey, what's up, man, what was the question? Sorry, my daughter was asking a question.
Speaker 2:So I was asking a question about Luke 66, 4. I mean sorry, isaiah 66, 4. When God tells Israelites that because they have chosen their own ways and their souls delight in abominations, god says I will choose their delusions and will bring their fears upon them. Choose their delusions and will bring their fears upon them. So my question was this does that make God a sinner or does it make God evil or unjust that he would choose their delusions?
Speaker 1:so that they believe the delusion. No, no, god does so. Ultimately, it's usually again, it goes back to his restraining grace, right, and this man? There's a passage I'm actually looking for right now. I think it's in Numbers. Oh man, it's a good one. On this very topic. It's bringing it up, mentioned this talking about there's a bringing it up, mention this is talking about. There's a. Uh, the lord says who's going to put deceit in the heart of the king? Or who's going to put this, yeah, put um, this, um, um deceiving spirit in the heart of the king are you talking about?
Speaker 2:you're talking about with, uh, jahashaphat and and ahab, when they were going to war. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, I believe so. And and then, and then um micaiah was given the prophecy about Ahab and Ahab was upset because he was saying he was saying I don't want to call this guy because he's going to just tell us something bad Because he called the 400 prophets Ahab did because Jehoshaphat and Ahab were going to war together against Syria. They were going to war together against Syria. They were going to war together against Syria. And this may not be what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:You can see the same thing in Isaiah, chapter 10, with the king of Assyria, right, who, like, obviously he was a wicked evil man, but God, actually, you know, through again the same thing we see within this passage. I'm trying to locate right now. The same thing we see there is God through the workings of evil spirits and such, puts these evil desires in the hearts of people who are already rebellious against him, right, and in doing so they do these very evil acts. We see the same thing with Judas, right. When Judas enters Satan, right, judas interstate Satan, right, right, because God hands him over.
Speaker 1:Um, it's the same kind of thing where it's. It's never that God is the one that, like the Holy Spirit's, they're saying, go and do this sin right. It's always through a rebellious means that he's ordaining these things and he judges the assyrians for, for their destruction of jerusalem. Right, I mean, and that's why, like, so important. It's like like they were acting in accordance with their nature, they were sinning against israel and yet, and yet, god told, like bait, through the, through the workings of these evil spirits, told them to go, uh and and attack jerusalem and judge jerusalem.
Speaker 2:And then god turns around and judges right assyrians right and, as somebody mentioned it earlier, one of my sisters, uh, in a comment she wrote about God sending a lying spirit, which is exactly what he did.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm looking for. Yeah, judges, that's probably what it's at. Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's, yeah, it's when.
Speaker 3:Ahab and.
Speaker 2:Jehoshaphat, because they were going to war together.
Speaker 5:Yep it sends another spirit as well to Saul.
Speaker 1:It's 1 Kings 22, 21 to 23. Everyone turn there. It's fascinating. What is it again? 1 Kings 22, 21 to 23. I knew I had it highlighted. I couldn't remember where it was. 1 Kings 21? 1 Kings 22.
Speaker 2:22, okay, and 21 to 23 alright, go ahead. Go ahead and read it, brother absolutely alright.
Speaker 1:It says actually it kind of starts in verse, starting 20, starting 20, and the Lord said who will entice ahab that he may go up and fall at ramath gilead? And one said one thing and another said another. And then a spirit came forward and stood before the lord saying I will entice him. And lord said to him by what means? And he said I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said you are to entice him and you shall succeed. Go and do so, right.
Speaker 2:You see, I'm going to tell you something, Luke and everybody listening, this is what I was talking about, and this is a powerful, powerful statement about God's sovereignty and his power over his creation. This is a powerful thing, because how do you look at this and reconcile that God would authorize a lying spirit to go out and deceive willful people? Can you read one more verse it's, it's bang on topic.
Speaker 5:Go ahead. Yeah, can you read it? Isaiah 63, 17.
Speaker 2:Isaiah 63 17, let me get there it's Isaiah, not Isaiah it's what is Isaiah it's.
Speaker 1:Don't listen to her. She's just being Maria.
Speaker 2:Isaiah 63?
Speaker 5:Isaiah 63, 17. All right.
Speaker 2:It says this oh Lord, why have you made us to err from thy ways and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return, for thy servant's sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Speaker 5:God make them air from his ways.
Speaker 6:Can I say something here? Go for it, johnny. And I have to clarify. Romans 3, has this imaginary opponent in mind, right? And when he says I speak as a man, this is a hypothetical statement. He's he's. He's picturing something here. So Paul isn't saying that sin glorifies God. Sin doesn't glorify God. God hates sin. However, sin gives God an opportunity to show his glory. That's what he says in Romans three, 5, that our unrighteousness demonstrates the goodness of God. So, in other words, our sin gives God an opportunity to show his goodness by putting his attributes on display which bring him glory.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that the context that always needs to be established and that is consistent with what you're saying, is this because it's not the sin itself that glorifies god, in my opinion right, that's what I'm saying, right and that's what people are accusing paul for, when they said well, let's just do evil, that good may come right.
Speaker 6:Because they were thinking, paul, you're saying sin glorifies god, let's just do evil, that good may come. But that's their lie, that's, that's not going to happen's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:And he also said that their condemnation is deserved. You know people who believe like that, but how God is glorified in this context is that he's glorified by exercising justice. Now we see love and mercy. You're right, those are two things. His, his, when he responds to sin and sinners, it is he's exercising absolute and complete and perfect justice, and so he's glorified in his justice, and he is going to do with sin and evil what even men on our earth do not do. We don't see perfect justice in this earth. We see inequity everywhere, everywhere, whether it has to do with this race or that race, or this wealthy or the wealthy or the poor or the people that live in this land or that land or whatever. But what God is saying, what he's teaching us, that land or whatever there is, because? But what God is saying what he's teaching us is that he is going to show himself perfectly just in his handling of sin, especially for those who reject the olive branch, as it were.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Go back to your first topic. Right when you first opened the live, you was talking about um. What's his name? Joseph right joseph yes yeah, when you first opened the live right right so just take the account of joseph and what happened with joseph right um, obviously, how terrible was it?
Speaker 5:he was sold into slavery, he was betrayed, he went to prison. His life up until he becomes Pharaoh's right-hand man is absolutely horrendous. And in all fairness, I mean, I know he was Pharaoh's right-hand man, but he would have still longed to go back to his father and his family and his people. He was his father's beloved son. He would have still had that longing, right.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 5:To go back home, even though he was in this big position. Right, take a look at Joseph's life. Right, terrible, terrible things happen. What does it ultimately bring In Genesis, what is it? 40, 50. What does he say? What you meant for evil, god meant for good. So the evilness and the wickedness of his brother's actions and what they've done? Right, it follows, if you look at the story, right, it follows right into Exodus, because wasn't there a famine? And he had the stars and the barns of the food. And then Jacob's children go into Egypt for that food. All those hundreds of years later, they're still in Egypt. Now they're being slaves in Egypt. And then what comes? Right, moses splits the sea. God comes in the bush. Look how many things happen and take place that ultimately brings glory to God, even in the wickedness of man, like even in Pharaoh and all these situations. Right, but from the simple story of Joseph, you have the prophet Moses, rise up. You have what's his face. Who wrote the Exodus? What's his name? What's his name?
Speaker 3:Which one who?
Speaker 5:wrote Genesis, exodus and Leviticus. What's his face, joshua? You have all these glorious stories of all these men. I couldn't think of his name. Do you see what I'm saying I do? So Jacob takes his people, israel, into Egypt, because Egypt has the stores and the barns, what they stored up right. Then you go into Exodus. They eventually become slaves in Egypt. Then you've got Moses coming and splitting Look how many things you've got going on right All because his brother sold him into slavery.
Speaker 2:And you're right. And the thing about it is, I sort of let this go in the direction that it would go. And Joseph Joseph, as I said at the beginning, he was an absolute, perfect prototype of who Christ would be to us. You know, he was rejected by his own and cast out by his own. You know, and then we find out later on, that it was necessary for this to happen. It was orchestrated by God so that he could go ahead of his people in order that, at a later date, he would preserve life, which was consistent with the dream that he had.
Speaker 2:That they didn't like hearing. That they didn't like hearing. They felt he was being smug and that he was being condescending and that he was arrogating himself over them. Even though he was the youngest son, he was making himself out to be, in their minds, this great leader. And so they were like we'll show you. We'll show you, but this is exactly what would happen when Christ came. When Christ came, he was sold out by his own, out by his own. He was rejected by those of his own, rejected by people who were at the synagogue that he went to, that were at the feast that he went to, that were at the sacrificial ceremonies, the Passover events, his own people rejected him.
Speaker 6:Yeah and um, you know that's. This is something that everybody has to answer, right, and I, and I think the calvinist understanding of the problem of evil in the world and how it explains romans 9 and isaiah 10 acts, chapter 4 you know all these hard passages. You know how explains all the old, you know it answers a lot passages. You know how it explains all the Old Testament. You know it answers a lot of questions.
Speaker 6:I think that the Calvinistic understanding of the Bible, you know because you know it says you know what about all the plagues? Right, that God. And God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Right, he said if you do not let them go, he hardened his heart like 10 times. And this is where you know we have God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. They are twin truths, right?
Speaker 6:Rc Sproul, john MacArthur, they all talk about it. You know they're twin truths, right? They're parallel realities that end up meeting in eternity. We don't understand how they work together because we're finite creatures. We can't. Paul says you know who has known the mind of the Lord, who became his counselor, who has first given to him that it may be given back to him again. So it's not an understanding how divine sovereignty and human responsibility go together and, however, while we might not grasp it, it's perfectly in harmony in the mind of God and one day we may understand. But as of now we have to follow by His revealed will what he reveals about Himself in Scripture, and Scripture is explicit.
Speaker 6:God is absolutely sovereign. He does predestine. No one can come unless they're drawn. Whoever believes, we agree that whoever believes, whoso believes, whoever will come, let him come. That's true. But you also believe no one can come unless they're drawn. Yes, do you believe that god predestines wrote their name down, their name down the land's book of life? Yes, well, how do you harmonize that? We don't. They're, they're twin realities. They, they coexist, right, we have god's sovereignty and man's responsibility. And when you read the Old Testament, god wiped out all the firstborns in Egypt. Right, he did that. That's true.
Speaker 6:I like God's this. You know, good old grandpa in the sky that just says you know we're best buds and I'm going to cater to your every need. Like you read on TBN that God wants to make you rich and all that Right's not the god of the bible, that's a man-made image of god anthony.
Speaker 2:What say you? Anthony? Can I go ahead and know what that? What say you? What do you think?
Speaker 3:what was uh about the evil?
Speaker 2:It's hard to hear you, brother. It's hard to hear no.
Speaker 3:What were you saying now?
Speaker 2:What was that about the evil? Well, yeah, we were talking about how God overrides, basically how God overrides evil, and yet he himself is not responsible for the moral free agency of men. It's kind of like where we're getting at. But, but, um, what I want, what I want to ask is this I'll ask you something different, um, and that's this. So, in romans 7, paul says something interesting, and I think it's interesting primarily because it comes from Paul himself. And he says, in verse 18 of Romans 7, for I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells, no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good, I do not find. So when he says, for I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells, no good thing, what does that mean to you when you read that passage, that verse, that in me, in my flesh dwells, no good thing?
Speaker 3:It means to me that in my flesh, my flesh to me, is my carnal mind. That's the spirit that has given to my flesh to nurture it, to eat regular food to eat you know so, so let me stop you for a second.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you mentioned the carnal mind, so are you suggesting that paul, in this verse, is speaking from a carnal mind?
Speaker 3:no, I'm suggesting that paul through the spirit, that that Paul through the spirit that we have to have to sustain this natural body. See, that's the spirit. That's no good, because he wants to be something. That's what you know. He wants to be. He wants to know good and evil. That's what you know, what the serpent told Eve. He said for in the day you do it, god knows that your eyes will be opened and you will become his God. So you know, in good and evil, that's what a God is. He can judge between good and evil and that's what we become in our carnal mind. We can say, well, that was evil, this was good, and we become a judge and we become God.
Speaker 2:And you mentioned carnal mind again, so let me ask you a question Does a Christian have a carnal mind?
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. I mean, we all have a carnal mind that we have to die to. That's what Paul said. I die daily to what I want to do, to what I want to fulfill what I want to. He had to die and follow the spirit which didn't please his flesh or his carnal self. I mean, he was going to preach and they beat him. He didn't find no pleasure, I'm sure in all that, All right.
Speaker 2:Well, let's deal with this for a second before I finish here. This is a. This is a question I want to ask everybody Luke, are you there, brother? Luke, you there, Frozen, chosen, frozen. You there, Frozen, Chosen, Frozen. You there. Everybody's signed in, but nobody's listening. Spartan, you there? Yes, sir, All right. Question Can a Christian have a carnal mind Based on what you know from the Bible? Can a Christian have a carnal mind Based on what you know from the Bible?
Speaker 7:can a Christian have a carnal mind? That's a good question, don't guess. I know I'm trying to think on can a Christian have a carnal mind? Because I'm also trying to consider, you know, when we think of Christians, each individual is going to have, each individual is going to.