The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Essential Baptism: (PART 1of 4)
What does it really mean to be baptized, and is water baptism essential for salvation? These questions have divided Christians for centuries, often creating unnecessary barriers between believers who share the same core faith.
In this thought-provoking episode, we strip away layers of religious tradition to examine what the Bible actually teaches about baptism. Beginning with the Greek word "baptizo" (to identify with), we explore three distinct types of baptism found in Scripture: John's baptism of repentance, Jesus's unique baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit promised in Acts.
Through a lively panel discussion with diverse perspectives, we tackle the controversial question head-on: can someone who believes in Christ but dies before being water baptized still be saved? The answer reveals a powerful truth about God's grace and the nature of salvation itself.
Beyond baptism, we address troubling trends in contemporary Christianity, including false teachers who distort fundamental doctrines like the deity of Christ and pastors who prioritize financial gain over authentic ministry. These examples highlight why Christians must return to Scripture as their ultimate authority rather than following charismatic personalities or tradition.
What emerges is a refreshing perspective that cuts through religious noise to focus on what truly matters - the heart transformation that occurs when we place our faith in Jesus Christ. This episode will challenge your assumptions, deepen your understanding of baptism's true purpose, and reorient your focus toward the essential core of Christian faith.
Join us for this crucial conversation that brings clarity to confusion and freedom from religious legalism while maintaining fidelity to biblical truth.
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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So I tell you, you know, I usually have and I'm not saying this for any other reason other than what I'm trying to convey by this is like usually, every day I'm usually working on and trying to put together something that I think might be a blessing and a benefit to the souls of those who are listening and to those who are participating in the panel, and also just to be able to continue the conversation around the word of God in all areas and all aspects. Yesterday I had a interesting exchange with a gentleman who goes to or sits under the pastoral leadership of Geno Jennings.
Speaker 2:Oh boy.
Speaker 1:Now for any of you know Geno Jennings. Geno Jennings is a very boisterous voice on the religious, in the religious square, I would say and here's something else I'll say From a practical standpoint, from a practical standpoint in terms of applying biblical doctrines to our personal lives. He's not altogether off, but the problem is is that his biggest problem is that he has a fundamental problem when it comes to the deity of Christ, and this is where he and I part ways. And this is where he and I part ways, so much so that I believe that his doctrine is heretical.
Speaker 1:Now, anybody can go and preach morality. Any person can preach morality. You don't have to be a Christian to preach morality. I don't need to be a pastor to tell people that it's wrong to lie or that it's wrong to commit adultery or that it's wrong to treat your parents with respect. We don't need to be Christians for that. So that doesn't say a lot when a pastor or someone preaches practical things that people can learn or understand outside of being a Christian.
Speaker 1:But what we need to understand as believers is this Christ is concerned. Is this Christ is concerned? Not most, not some, but he is concerned entirely with the arresting of the heart of his people. He's focused on the heart. Now, there are a lot of people amongst us who are believers, that we may find ourselves at variance with and in various issues and in varying degrees of those issues, but at the end of the day, it is the Lord Jesus Christ who looks upon the heart of the individuals and he has already made a determination about these souls and what their condition will end up being, in the final analysis, when he returns. The issue is the heart.
Speaker 2:We have a few fun games.
Speaker 1:It is the heart Now.
Speaker 2:Wednesday night we have the Knicks and the Cavs, the Pistons and the. Thunder here to break it all down with Kendrick Perkins.
Speaker 1:I don't know what that was, but let me try to mute somebody here because we keep getting distracted by this. Nicole, I don't know if that's you or not, but if I mute your phone, it's only because there's noise coming through that you may not be aware of or paying any particular attention to. It's not to disrespect you at all. So please stay. If I mute you and if you know how to hit on your screen and turn on your mic, feel free to come on when it's time to talk or to add into the conversation. Now, that being said, I got, I had an exchange with this guy who was, and is, a congregant of the church that Geno Jennings is the pastor of, and Geno Jennings is known for being part of the group or the denomination referred to as the Oneness Movement. The Oneness Movement and his minion came out after me today, didn't ask me what I believed, didn't ask me anything about doctrinal themes, and made the wholesale assessment that I'm a heretic. And, believe me, if I got a penny for everyone who called me a heretic, I'd probably be a billionaire. And I have no interest, and neither should you, you should have no interest in trying to please man. So we are called to come to Christ in boldness and in faith, in believing in the truth that we have, that we have come to understand. Does that mean we understand all things? No, it does not. Any person that I'm going to call a bold-faced heretic without at least knowing their position on those things which are necessary to be believed, whereas outside of that you would be a heretic. Now, tonight's message is called Essential Baptism. Everyone who's a Christian is an expert on baptism. Everyone I don't know anyone who I know who, to some degree, does not see themselves as some kind of a expert on baptism. And so this is what I want to talk about this evening Essential baptism. Now, what I mean by essential baptism? Here's what I mean by that, because we need to get a real good understanding about this because, like I said, everybody has their ideas of how to distinguish one baptism from another, or they determine which part or which aspect or which type of baptism is necessary for salvation, which type of baptism is necessary for salvation, and this is a critical aspect that needs to be assessed and understood. Now, I know, I know that this is going to be a hot topic tonight. So if you get muted or booted out, it's because you can't control yourself. And so I'm asking my monitor she knows who she is and me myself when somebody's out of line, just get it out of the way. It won't get them out of the way immediately, because this is a topic that is going to be problematic for a lot of people Baptism, baptism, baptism.
Speaker 1:Now, the best way to start this conversation is like anything else. If we're taking something topical, we need to understand the topic. Baptism comes from the word baptizo. Baptizo means simply this to identify with, to identify. Baptism has to do with what it is, who it is you identify with. It is as simple as that. I know that a lot of Christians want to lean on that Da Vinci Code Christianity and they want to make it something different than what it is, but baptism is simple as this. It means to identify with, and now we have to assess what it is we are identifying with.
Speaker 1:Now, now that we've given the definition of baptism, now that we've given the definition of baptism, now that we've given the definition of baptism, it is important to understand a few other things about baptism, how many there are. There are types of baptism Now, for instance, john the Baptist preached that the kingdom of heaven Was at hand and the baptism that he preached was called the baptism of repentance, and it was a water baptism. It was a water baptism. Now, he preached that and many men Were baptized by John the Baptist in the water. Now some will say that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. If there's no water baptism, there's no salvation. There are many people who hold this position.
Speaker 1:Now let's take it a step further. We have the Lord Jesus Christ. We have the Lord Jesus Christ who told John the Baptist to baptize him. Jesus went to John Seeking His baptism and we find out that John the Baptist says I have need to be baptized by you and you want me to baptize you. And Jesus said to him suffer it to be so now. In other words, allow it to happen immediately in order to fulfill all righteousness.
Speaker 1:Certainly, you cannot be a Christian and think that the same baptism that Jesus received has the same fruit and efficacy that it has toward those of us who are called to be baptized. We are not Jesus and Jesus is not us in the sense of who we are as a person. In our nature, jesus was divine and sinless. There was nothing in him that required the washing away of the filth of the flesh, because in him there was no filth to be cleansed of, there was nothing to be washed away. So his baptism truth of the definition of baptism is that he was getting baptized in one form or another to identify with those with whom he would be coming into alignment with, and also, in his person, his alignment with his father with, and also in his person, his alignment with his father.
Speaker 1:Now, there may be nuances here and there that people may want to introduce. I'm fine with that, but I'm speaking in general terms and the point here is that the baptism of Jesus didn't mean to him the same thing that it means to us when we get baptized. So therefore, his baptism was different than the baptism of John the Baptist. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that, and if you do, light up your screen or whatever and interject me and correct me if you think that I'm wrong on this issue, now, next we have a third baptism, if you will, which is the baptism that came in Acts, chapter 2, that Jesus Christ told us to expect A baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This baptism is certainly different than the water baptism of John, and that baptism is also different than the baptism of Jesus Christ. So, in some respects, so far we have three different baptisms that we can look at and determine or ascertain whether or not one of these baptisms, or all of them, or some of them, has a salvific effect on us. I will say that at least one of them does. I will say at least one of them does. There's the baptism that Jesus Christ received. There's a baptism of water that John the Baptist did, a baptism of repentance, and there's a baptism of the Holy Ghost. One of them, or all of them, or some of them, has the efficacy of salvation built into it. At this point, as we're talking, I will leave you to ponder what that is, which one that is, but I intend to go through it with your help, those of you who are on the panel and people who are making comments, to help me determine what the Bible, I believe, clearly makes clear, makes clear.
Speaker 1:Now, hearkening back to what prompted me to do this particular subject tonight, there's a guy here on this platform who is a congregant and a member of Geno Jennings Church. Geno Jennings calls himself an apostle. He's not an apostle. Geno Jennings presents himself as an authority on the word of God, and he's not.
Speaker 1:Geno Jennings does not know what he's talking about, in spite of all his bloviating and bluster. I'm saying it because it is true and his biggest problem is not handling the way the biblical handles knowing the identification of our Lord and Savior and understanding his deity. He says that Jesus himself, the person of Jesus, he is the father, jesus is the father. He says Jesus is the son. He says Jesus is the Holy Spirit. He says and this is foolishness and it is a lie, and I don't care how much he raises his voice and blusters and bloviates, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't care about his degree, I don't care about. It Doesn't make sense, it's not biblical, it's a lie, and more Christians need to be able to stand on their feet, stand up for the truth and call these people out for what they really are.
Speaker 1:Jennings is a heretic, he's a heretic. Let me say it again Geno Jennings is a heretic and no matter how good he sounds to you, no matter how appealing you think his preaching is, he calls himself an apostle and I will tell you right now he is a false apostle and people think that he walks on water. But this is the way people do. They get attached to individuals and not attached to the word of God. If you're going to be attached to an individual, be attached to the Lord Jesus Christ in him only. I'll give you another example and then I'm going to get right into this baptism thing. I'll give you another example.
Speaker 1:Some of you have probably heard about this guy, this pastor, who locked the door in his church trying to make people pay for, locked the door in his church trying to make people pay for or to give money to this church so he can make $40,000. I forget the guy's name, but anyway, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. He told his ushers to lock the doors until every one of the people that gave, they gave until they totaled up to $40,000. Marvin Sapp, that's his name. Thank you, sister, marvin Sapp, marvin Sapp, this guy is a perfect example. He's a perfect example of why there needs to be a new Reformation in God's Holy Church. Another example I'm going to talk about the church a lot with a brother of mine this coming Friday or this time on Friday. We're going to talk about the church.
Speaker 1:But the church has deviated from his core principles as given by God, and we see it in churches like Marvin Sapp's church, where he could do something like that, and then people, even after he does that, they come out and they try to defend him as if this was defendable. What he did and what he said and what he was expecting was indefensible. The reason why I love this platform so much is because I'm not here trying to make money. I don't have to worry about my tax deductions, I don't have to worry about making the mortgage payment on the building, I don't have to worry about excluding certain truths that I must convey, for instance, when it comes to the LGBTQ community. I can tell it like it is, because nobody is lining my pockets. I am not making any money, but the message isn't about me. So let me stop there before it becomes that way, which is what the human flesh always lends itself to. What's important is that in all things, we seek out the glory of our Lord and Savior, in every aspect of our conversation, in every aspect of our being, in every aspect of what we do, in every aspect of what we turn our senses over to consume.
Speaker 1:Now, baptism People make it such a big deal. They make it such a big deal that they make even the simplest things confusing, that they make even the simplest things confusing In Acts, chapter 1,. In Acts, chapter 1, it says in verse 5, for John truly baptized with water. Christians, listen to this, especially those on the panel, because I have a very good panel for anyone who's listening, a very astute, good, cordial panel. So listen to this. Acts 1, verse 5 john truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days from now.
Speaker 1:Now, before we start to go on on this, I want to ask people on the panel a question. I'm going to go around and I want to know if there's anyone on the panel or anybody listening who believes that water baptism is essential to salvation. In other words, if you have not, this is what I'm asking you to say before, because I know that somebody's going to come up here and go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah or need context, or want to take me on a tour around the entire bible to get to a simple answer to a simple question Does water, is water baptism, essential to salvation? I titled this lecture or this study time, essential Baptism. So what I'm asking now to everybody here and I'm going to go around. I'm going to ask everybody out is water baptism? Can you go to heaven? Can you go to heaven without water baptism? Can anybody be saved apart from water baptism? Is Christ going to condemn you if you have not been water baptized? Lisa, let me start with you.
Speaker 2:No, he's not going to condemn you if you haven't been water baptized.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:Nicole, what do you think? Sorry, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:All right, candy Girl, are you there?
Speaker 2:I know you're out there working I agree, all right, candy girl, you there, I know you're out there working.
Speaker 4:I agree, all right.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, sister, big gravy, how about?
Speaker 4:you, brother Jerry, yeah, you can hear me now. Yeah, I hear you fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I believe it's essential. Brother, you believe baptism is essential for salvation? Yes, so any Christian who is not baptized really can't constitute themselves a Christian.
Speaker 4:I believe water baptism is essential.
Speaker 1:Right, so here's my next question then. So nobody who has been baptized, who has not been baptized, anybody who has not been baptized by water cannot call themselves a Christian.
Speaker 4:Everything that Jesus commanded brother, is essential. I understand that.
Speaker 1:I understand that.
Speaker 4:That's what I believe.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, I'll move on. I get it All right, greg. What's your answer?
Speaker 3:It's not essential as long as you're circumcised just kidding.
Speaker 5:No, not essential all right, meg brother, you can just get me. You already know the answer no, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not essential for salvation, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:All right, Mighty Mitch. Hey brother, I missed you in the last couple of days. Yes, sir, how you doing man, I'm doing all right, brother, I got a feeling what you're going to say, but I'm going to ask anyway Water baptism are you condemned if you don't have it or not If you don't have it?
Speaker 5:According to the new covenant, you 100 condemned all right heaven's life, sister.
Speaker 1:How you doing, sister good, how are you? All right. Are you condemned if you have not been water baptized?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna halfway steal mark's answer on this you're gonna do what I'm gonna halfway steal mark's answer on this mark in the comments to do what I'm going to halfway still. Mark's answer on this Mark in the comments.
Speaker 1:Mark Kelly on, you know yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, Okay, I see that.
Speaker 2:I think, I think that you can be saved even if you were not baptized. But I think everybody who is saved will want to be baptized.
Speaker 1:That. I agree with that. I agree with a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:I agree with that. I agree with 100%. I agree with that 100%. But I flatly disagree With anybody like my brother Mitch and my brother Big Gravy, who I respect both of these gentlemen very much, but I disagree with them. I think they're wrong.
Speaker 4:Can I ask you a question, bro? Sure, go ahead. You covered what Three baptisms you mentioned. I did what you covered three baptisms you mentioned. Right, at least you could go more, I'm sure. Well, I think you missed one. Ok, which one? Is it the one that Peter administered at Pentecost?
Speaker 1:Which is.
Speaker 4:Repentance and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:That's water baptism yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't miss that.
Speaker 4:I believe that. Okay, I thought you said something about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I said that was the third one. Okay, so let me ask you one more question about your definition. Sure, Is that the because I don't know about all this, you know Greek and stuff Is that the meaning of baptism, the one that you gave?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to identify. Yeah, it's Greek to identify baptizo.
Speaker 2:I thought it was to immerse.
Speaker 4:I thought it meant to immerse as well, so that's why I was asking.
Speaker 1:No, baptizo means to identify. To identify. Immersion comes in when it comes to determining one of the ways that you can be water baptized. In other words, for instance, if you are a cripple in a wheelchair Right and you have an oxygen tank, you're not going to be immersed. So how does a person who needs to be water baptized get baptized if they can't go into water?
Speaker 4:So it is one of the meanings, though, right.
Speaker 1:No, it's the same, but I'm saying it's water baptism. So my question to you, brother, would be like this Well, if a person is incapable of being immersed in water, then how are they baptized? If, by for health reasons, it can't be done, are they condemned?
Speaker 4:You know what my answer is saying.
Speaker 1:No, what is your answer? You're saying that a person who has.
Speaker 4:I said water. No, I'm not going to the analogy. I'm saying a water baptism is essential because it's commanded by I'm not saying it's not essential.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I'm saying I don't, I don't know about that analogy that you're giving, because you can always create an analogy true to life that makes the point.
Speaker 1:So, jerry, here's my question, brother, and I'm not picking on you. So, jerry, here's my question, brother, and I'm not picking on you. My question is this If a person who comes to faith in a hospital bed, this isn't an analogy, this is reality. Yes, yes, somebody could be on their deathbed or in a hospital with cancer or a car accident or whatever they come to faith.
Speaker 4:You go in there and you preach, they come to faith, that's what I can respond to Right.
Speaker 1:So what I'm saying is this if they cannot be baptized in the way we understand baptism, generally speaking, immersion, and they can't do it, but they believe in by faith in the joy of the Lord Jesus Christ, but they can't be immersed in water and they die before they come out of that bed, or they never come out of that bed and can't get immersed?
Speaker 4:Are they condemned or not? I know of people who were on there. I know but, Jerry, what I'm asking is this?
Speaker 1:What I'm asking is this, because we can come up with different things. What I'm asking is this is that person saved or not?
Speaker 4:But you're not going to. Let me answer the question All right, brother, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 4:The question is about my experience and the reality of what I know. There have been people in that position on what you just said and demanded to be baptized before they're unalive. I know this personally. You know what I'm sorry. You know what. Now. I know this personally. You know what I'm sorry. We know what. Now. I know this personally. You know what personally. You didn't hear what I just said.
Speaker 1:No, no, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. No, I didn't understand what you're saying. I heard it, I didn't understand.
Speaker 4:Right the example that you use about people on their deathbed. Right, I say I know of people in that position that demanded to be baptized before they were on the line.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying, but did they? But did they die without the water baptism? No, they died after, I know. But that's not what I'm asking, though. What I'm asking you about is people who die.
Speaker 4:I'm telling you my I'm telling you my personal experience.
Speaker 1:But I'm but, Jerry, here's what I'm asking brother, here's what I'm asking. I know what your position is in general. I know what that is. I get it Water baptism, no salvation. I get it. Okay, I get it Right. So what I'm asking is this A person who cannot be immersed in water, are they saved or not If they believe?
Speaker 4:I can't make the judgment.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's all what I'm getting to Right.
Speaker 4:So when I'm talking to someone about salvation, I can only tell them what the apostles taught and said. I will not add a word to it or a thought to it or interpretation to it.
Speaker 1:I understand, I get it and what the I understand, I get it.
Speaker 4:And what? What the scripture says?
Speaker 1:I get it, but all but but all I wanted to get from you was the answer that you gave me. I don't know about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can only give you what I can give you, all right.
Speaker 1:So that so so that's fair and I appreciate that. I really do that. I really do, I really do Greg baptism, water baptism. If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you accepted him into your heart as your Lord and savior, and you're a believer and you die before you get the chance to make it to the next Lord's day or the next month, when they're having baptism and you die, are you saved or are you not saved?
Speaker 3:Well, you're saved. So let me ask you a question Is baptism for saved people or for unsaved people?
Speaker 1:I believe it's for saved people yeah that's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 3:Right, we don't go around baptizing unsaved people, do we? No, we don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, we don't. Amen, amen, we do not. And see, and this is what I mean about the simplicity, see, see, here's the thing. The thing is, you have there are many things that that have impacted the way the church has looked at the word of God and made determinations as to the understanding and the interpretation of it. See, here's the thing when it comes to salvation, there's only one way by faith in Jesus Christ, and that one way has nothing to do ever with your physical limitations, abilities or the lack thereof. Salvation is always the same, and the problem that we have when it comes to baptism is distinguishing between Between baptism being the means of salvation or being a sacrament. So this is what we have to look at, because if baptism is absolutely essential for salvation, then are we safe to say that baptism is a sacrament? Can we call it a sacrament if it is a means for salvation? Because, in my perspective, we cannot.
Speaker 1:So the church has been left with two sacraments. Mighty Mitch, what do you think those are in your mind? Or correct me if there's more than one or less than two, I mean more than two or less than two. What are? What are the? What are the remaining sacraments? I know of two that are left behind by Christ for the church to use as an indication of our affiliation or our identification with Christ. What are the two sacraments?
Speaker 5:well, one would be you um. I'm a sacrament, we are sacrament what a bible tells you to present yourself a living sacrifice to him but I'm talking about a sacrament a sacrament. Yes, I don't know what is the definite. I don't know what people say about a sacrament, what that means all right, so so sacrament.
Speaker 1:Well, before I go into it, let me, let me go, let me go around a little bit. Heaven's life, sister. Yes, what are the two sacraments that christ left behind for us to have in the church? Sacraments? I would say communion and baptism does anybody disagree that I haven't spoken to yet. Does anybody disagree with that?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 5:All right, I will agree with her on the baptism.
Speaker 1:Okay, but you don't believe that communion is a sacrament, even though Jesus calls it a sacrament.
Speaker 5:Not according to way most people believe it. No.
Speaker 4:Brother Jonathan, somebody in the chat wants to know the definition of sacrament.
Speaker 1:So a sacrament is an act that is given to us by God to be a symbol of our affiliation with him. Some call it sacraments, some call it ordinances. Usually, people that will say ordinance will want to make sure they separate themselves from the Catholic church, but it's all the same A sacrament or an ordinance. In other words, these are things that Christ left behind to be symbols, symbols, symbols.