The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Essential Baptism (PART 3 of 4)
Two Christian brothers engage in a profound, respectful theological debate that cuts to the heart of salvation itself. While maintaining genuine love for one another, Jonathan and Jerry present contrasting views on baptism's role in the salvation process—is it essential for salvation, or is salvation by faith alone?
The discussion weaves through pivotal Scripture passages, including Acts 16 where the Philippian jailer asks, "What must I do to be saved?" and receives the response: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ." This becomes a cornerstone for the faith-alone position, though the passage goes on to describe the jailer's immediate baptism.
When examining 1 Peter 3:18-21, which states "baptism now saves you," the conversation deepens. Is Peter referring to the physical act of water baptism or to what baptism represents—"an appeal to God for a good conscience"? This distinction frames the entire debate: does salvation come through the ritual itself or through the heart transformation that the ritual symbolizes?
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when considering Noah's Ark as a type of Christ. As one participant observes, "The Ark was a typology of Christ...when Noah and his family went into the ark, they went into Christ, and the only way you are saved is in Christ Jesus." This powerful imagery suggests that just as Noah's family wasn't saved by water but by being in the ark, Christians aren't saved by baptism but by being "in Christ."
What makes this conversation exceptional is the genuine respect between participants despite their theological differences. They model how Christians can discuss contentious doctrinal issues while maintaining unity around the core gospel message—a refreshing example in our polarized culture.
Whether you're wrestling with questions about baptism or simply enjoy thoughtful biblical discussion, this conversation offers rich insights about what truly matters in our relationship with God. Join us as we explore what it means to have "the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
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a covenant with my own heart as a result of, as a result of errors that I knew early on in my christian life that I made.
Speaker 1:And the covenant and the covenant that I made with myself is that, from now on, whatever I said from, whatever I was saying from the word of god, whatever I was teaching from the word of god, that I would not say anything that I can't defend now and what I also said, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong, because I can be wrong and I have been wrong even since then.
Speaker 1:But what I'm saying is that a student of the word of God which I know you are, jerry, I know you are I want everybody to understand I love this brother. I really do. This is just one of those things we disagree on, so but, but, but what I but? And so I know that when he says something, he's going to go to the scriptures and he's going to appeal to the scriptures to present his case, as I'm going to do, even if it means we come up with two different ends in terms of the results. But the whole idea is for us to have the conversation. It's a conversation that needs to be had and needs to be a conversation that needs to be had, like all biblical conversations.
Speaker 2:Let me say this, Jonathan Go ahead, brother, for your audience's sake. When Jonathan and I had this conversation, I'm going to honestly tell you it drew us closer, it didn't draw us farther apart. Amen, brother, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 1:Can I?
Speaker 3:bring up a passage, Jonathan. Go ahead I think would fit really well into this.
Speaker 1:Go ahead.
Speaker 3:It's Acts, chapter 16. And I'm going to start reading in verse 28. It says that Paul cried with a loud voice do not harm yourself, for we are all here. And the jailer called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Amen, you and your household.
Speaker 3:And they spoke, and they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds and he was baptized at once. Amen, he and all his family. I saw this process, a beautiful process in this passage that I wanted to point out, because they asked very specifically what must I do to be saved? He said believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. But then it was the word. Right, we know faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word. And then it was the washing of the wounds, like you had just brought up with Paul Bickravy, right, anyways, that's all I wanted to add.
Speaker 1:Right, no, but that's the kind of input that I want to try to elicit from everyone, from everyone, from everyone you know, and I also want to make sure that people understand, because I don't want anybody to walk away from here, whether they're listening or whether or whether they are on the panel, to go and say Jonathan said that you don't need to, is able should be baptized. Should be baptized If you're on death row and you have no means to get baptized before you get to that electric chair, but you believe in the Lord, jesus Christ. There is nothing that is going to make me believe that that person is being cast into hell because they were baptized in water, yeah, but if you're getting baptized.
Speaker 4:before you go to prison, just make sure you I mean on death row just make sure you dry off real good, because that water is not going to mix with that electricity.
Speaker 1:But I get it. But see, this is the, this is the dialogue that I think that that we're having, that should that should happen, and I think it's a dialogue that should be heard by many people, by all people. Now in Acts I was in Acts 2.38. Now Peter said unto them repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, what does the Scripture call the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit? Anybody, what is it called To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? What is it called?
Speaker 2:Go ahead, lisa. I'm sorry, spirit, what is it called you mean? Are you saying what?
Speaker 3:Go ahead, lisa, I'm sorry, yeah, we're baptized by fire when we receive the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:This is what I'm getting at the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Brother, it's not with fire. If you go back and read that passage, he's talking about the wind.
Speaker 1:Hold on on, forget about the fire part, because the fire part speaks about judgment, speaks about judgment. So let's talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, would you say, because I know you like to be Really precise. So here's my question Do Christians Receive a baptism of the Holy Spirit? No, sir, they don't, no, sir. So then, what do you call the receiving of the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 2:OK, the indwelling, but you don't call that a baptism. Jesus promised that he wouldn't leave the disciples as orphans, but when he returned back to heaven he would send pray to the Father that he send the Holy Spirit. He was talking about the period of time when the Holy Spirit would be indwelling in believers.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let me ask you this question then, jerry. Yes, sir, it says in Acts 8, 16, 8, 16, for as he yet, meaning the holy spirit had, was fallen upon none of them, only they were baptized in the. Well, I'm sorry, let me go back. Let me go back in acts 8, 14. It says uh, now, when the apostles which were at jerusalem heard that, heard that samaria had received the word of god, they sent them unto p and John who, when they would come down, pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost, for as yet he was fallen on none of them, only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. So when it says here that they had only been baptized in the name of the Jesus Christ, what do you think he, what do you? What do you think was being said there? That only the baptism of Jesus Christ?
Speaker 2:I love the fact that you're asking me that question.
Speaker 1:Well, I know you're going to love it that you get to answer it.
Speaker 2:At Pentecost. We need to understand the establishment and the beginning of the church. The apostles are described as ignorant and unlearned men, but yet Jesus told them they had to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. How, in fact, were they going to be able to do that? But Pentecost, he gave them the ability to do just that. But he also gave them another power, because the church was brand new, like a baby. How was the church going to survive, thrive and grow? He gave the apostles the ability to lay hands on new Christians and, empowered by the Spirit, as the Spirit determined to give them miraculous gifts. Because they didn't have a New Testament like we have to look at and read. That's what maintained the church.
Speaker 2:So every time they went to a new place, like Philip goes to Samaria, there's no Christians there. He preaches the gospel. They obey the gospel, just like they did at Pentecost. But Philip is not an apostle. He can't impart unto them any spiritual gifts and the church has to be established. So when the apostles hear about it, what do they do? They send two apostles down there to do just that.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you this question. So in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 13, when it says for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been made all to drink of one spirit. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:That means that those spiritual gifts were all imparted by the Holy Spirit, as he saw fit.
Speaker 1:No, but what I'm saying is here's what it says specifically, because I know you like to be precise. Yes, it says specifically, because I know you like to be precise yes, first Corinthians 12, 13 says precisely for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body. There's only one spirit, brother. No, see, see, jerry, you see here, let's let's be honest about this thing.
Speaker 2:I'm being as honest as I can, jonathan. Don't don't accuse me of being dishonest when I'm trying to respond to what.
Speaker 1:I think Jerry brother relax, brother.
Speaker 2:I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm having a constructive conversation, man. He said don't be dishonest. That's what you said. I did not say don't be dishonest.
Speaker 1:Listen, here's the thing. We're just having a conversation.
Speaker 2:Jerry, that's it, I know. But when you say to me, brother, I know you like to be precise, but don't be dishonest, I mean what does?
Speaker 1:that say All right, jerry, jerry, I apologize, let's stop. Yeah, please, let's stop. All right, now, let's go. I was wrong, I made a mistake. I didn't try to offend you. I'm not trying to offend you Now. Here's what I'm asking Simple question 1 Corinthians 12, 13.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to go there now.
Speaker 1:For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body. What does that mean? Anybody tell me. I mean, I want to know. Is it a baptism by the Holy Spirit, or is it not?
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. I do not believe that it is baptism of the Holy Spirit. When you obey the gospel Peter said, you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That means every believer.
Speaker 1:That's not what I'm asking, though, jerry.
Speaker 2:I'm asking about 1 Corinthians, 12, 13, brother Jerry, I'm asking you about first Corinthians, 12, 13,. Brother Right, but see, I explained to you. There's a difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism that Peter preached at Pentecost. I can illustrate it. There's many, there's many other examples in here.
Speaker 1:I can show to you. No, I believe, I believe you can, I believe you can, but we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll go on, because I can't Look. If I can't get that sorted out, I don't know what else. I can't look if I can't get that sorted out. I don't know what else I mean, because to me, to me, I mean I don't understand.
Speaker 4:I think it's just like in a church, like when people say the baptism of the Holy Spirit, like what I've seen and like I've went to a Pentecostal church a couple of times Just because they were my friends and I went. But as soon as they got what they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they started, you know, getting KO'd and like getting knocked out on the ground and they would go and dance or move or speak in tongues and then all this other stuff I guess.
Speaker 1:But that's what I think people say is getting baptized in the holy spirit right but I don't well, you know I I'm sure all of us have seen or heard of people being slain in the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 4:Yeah, slain in the spirit, drunk, all drunk in the spirit.
Speaker 1:All this stuff. Yeah, you know, and here's the thing, Like like I'm not Did you hear Nicole, what'd she say?
Speaker 4:She's like that's my favorite Getting drunk in the spirit.
Speaker 3:No. I said it's just by faith and faithfulness. Oh, I thought. No, I said it just by faith and faithfulness.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought you said that, Nicole. I could have swore you were like that's my favorite, but you talk so much. I was just thinking, Jonathan, in that example that you cited in the eighth chapter. There, if you read the two verses down, you'll see that Simon the, the sorcerer, he wanted to buy that ability of the apostles he was like can I invest in that?
Speaker 1:Yes, because he saw. It says clearly he saw that the gift was. I understand this, that when you read the scriptures, I understand that it is easy to come to a conclusion that water baptism is essential to salvation. This is what I will admit, that I can see. I can see I don't believe it, but I can see why those who believe it, like my brother, I can see why they come to that conclusion and they can make the argument for that conclusion. I just don't believe the argument is very strong and I believe that the argument that salvation is by grace and faith alone, I believe that argument is way stronger, especially when we deal with the fact that salvation because the one thing that holds the new covenant Christians together in fellowship with old covenant Christians, is that we were all saved, saved the same way. And I know for a fact and if somebody could show me different in the old covenant, where Abraham, moses, david, daniel, hezekiah, where any of these people were baptized in order to be saved, because none of them were, let's just keep it real.
Speaker 2:None of them were. The new covenant wasn't in effect, brother.
Speaker 1:I understand that, but the same gospel that we believe today is the same gospel that saved them.
Speaker 3:Can I disagree with both of you a little bit and say it a different way? Sure, and maybe you guys can correct me in this. I've always seen it as, throughout the whole of scriptures, whether we're talking about old or new, you see the Holy Spirit at work, either with mankind, in mankind, or upon mankind Right, mankind right. And so, as believers today we we see in ephesians 3, 14 through 19 that it's through the holy spirit within us that jesus even dwells in our heart. And I think we see in first corinthians 12 the gifts of the spirit, the baptism of being upon, and I think there's an absolute unity and cohesion in that, that's, that we're covered inside and out.
Speaker 1:I don't think I disagree with anything you just said. Amen, pardon me.
Speaker 3:I said amen, and then glory to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't see a problem with anything you just said right now. The funny thing is I opened up this message with a whole different beef.
Speaker 2:Go ahead and take it the way you want.
Speaker 5:Go ahead, Mark. What were?
Speaker 2:you going to say Mark?
Speaker 5:I was just going to ask the question, jonathan, to you Do you think the problem lies in how a person reads the book of Acts, whether they read it as a descriptive book or a prescriptive book or not recognizing it as a narrative book?
Speaker 5:I think that, because I was raised in exactly what you're talking about Jesus named baptism, laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit those key words in the doctrine and with Jesus' name baptism laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit, those key words in the doctrine in which I held credentials with, specifically said, the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues. That was the issue I had with my denomination. So I think sometimes the error we run into is how we're reading the book of Acts, and so many errors I think enter into denomination is by how they read the book of Acts, because we still have churches today that I have brothers that pastor, those type of churches that it takes a pastor to lay the hands on the person and pray over the person, and sometimes it takes weeks, months and years before what they call receiving the holy spirit, which would be that initial physical evidence of hearing them speak in turn. Right. So that's just my view.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I think we read the book of acts in a different light right, I, I, I really believe that and I believe a lot of people that that that hold to this thing and and I'm not saying that about anybody here, jerry, my brother or anybody I'm not saying that people started off with who started off with pentecostal or charismatic leanings. Um, support this height, this whole idea, because there are people who say the same thing that um, and they make the argument that if you have not been baptized with by the holy spirit, which they say is evidenced by speaking tongues, you're not Christian and so but? But I think that the all ambiguity should be clearly dismissed. If we understand, excuse me, if we understand and believe that salvation is by grace, through faith I'm sorry, I don't see how I can add anything to that Baptism if it were required to me. I don't know how it falls outside the category of works based salvation at least coupled with believing, salvation at least coupled with believing. So, and I know that there are many people like my brother here I know many people believe that they believe that salvation is not complete Unless you finish this last step.
Speaker 1:Some people is water baptism, other people it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. That you're not. I mean, I sat with people who told me when I first became Christian that if I hadn't spoken in tongues, I was not a Christian. Now, me being the stubborn person that I am, I want to see that in the scriptures, and you don't. Nor do you see, even though people make the argument for it, that salvation is by baptism or salvation is by faith, grace and baptism. I've never seen that anywhere in the Bible. Now, however, that doesn't mean that you can't look in Scripture and come to that conclusion one way or the other. I understand that people do that, but again, this is an exercise to have a discussion about. That's what it's about. That's what it's about Discussing it, because I also think that one thing I like about these platforms I'll say this real quick is that I personally think that more pastors should listen to these kinds of conversations, because I believe that most pastors in the pulpits either don't know or don't care how their own congregants would answer these questions, because I guarantee you, there are people in my church and there might be people in your church who believe completely different on certain issues than what our pastors may be saying, but they may never know, and I think this is this is this is why I love this so much, because we can speak to this whole thing. This is why I love this so much, because we can speak to this whole thing.
Speaker 1:And I'm happy that my brother, big Gravy, is here, because his perspective is different so that everyone here can go back and make their own assessment on what is involved in the actual salvation process, what actually produces salvation, what is required? We know that repentance is required. We know that having faith is required. We know that the only way we come to repentance and faith is by the Holy Spirit, which seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit is the first and prime mover in all that leads us to those things which makes us acceptable to God. But I have never seen in that process where baptism is part of it, because if it was for salvation, in my opinion, in my opinion and you're free, anybody who disagrees with me go to Big Gravy, his profile.
Speaker 1:I encourage you to go and ask him and hear his arguments. I encourage that. I don't want to be on here like somebody who's pontificating and saying that this is what everybody must believe. No, I want to challenge you. So go to his profile. He's a good man. He says a lot of true things. We just happen to disagree on this one. So I encourage you, you hear me, I encourage you also to go hear him, and you know what I'll still be on his lives and I hope he'll still be on mine in days to come.
Speaker 2:Oh, we ain't going nowhere, brother, you and I.
Speaker 1:No, I say I agree, I agree You're my brother, no matter what. You know what I mean. But this is what, to me, this whole thing that we're talking about, even these differences, is bigger than us. We have to remember, all of us are representing our Lord and Savior Right. All of us, all of us, and there's a certain, there's a certain disposition that he should be able to expect from his people who claim to love him and to love his people and anybody who loves the gospel that Christ has given to us, and to see that people come to faith in Jesus Christ. That's all. I don't want to make this boring for people because I like to keep it exciting, but what I'm saying is.
Speaker 1:I think that there's a lot here In heaven's life. I really appreciate your last comment because I don't disagree with any of that. Now, my brother Big Gravy earlier mentioned about Noah. Let me go to 1 Peter 3, verse 18 through 21.
Speaker 1:Here's what it says, for Christ also has once suffered sins, suffered four sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which meaning the Holy, holy spirit, by which he also went and preached to the spirits who were in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of god waited in the days of noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, the like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:Now here is where the issue comes in, and, jerry, you tell me if I'm nailing it from your perspective. It says here in verse 20, when sometime we're disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein meaning in the ark, that is, eight souls were saved by water, is eight souls were saved by water. Then it says in verse 21, the light figure where unto even baptism does also now save us, not the putting away of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. So, everybody, I want to let my brother Jerry interpret this passage and tell us what you think, jerry, what is this saying?
Speaker 2:It's saying. It's giving the lesson that during the time of Noah, when Noah preached to the people that God was going to destroy their earth by water, that water, noah and his family heeded God's warning. They got in the ark and they were saved by the water that was coming to destroy mankind. They had been warned and so they got into the ark. The water that saved them is the water that destroyed those that did not believe. I agree. And so then Peter makes the analogy. He says they had to. What's the word Antitype? What's the word?
Speaker 1:The like figure.
Speaker 2:In the like figure. He said baptism also saves now, and he's talking about not taking a bath. Not, you know, it's not like taking a bath, but it's an answer to God of a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, to God of a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's a consecration. You can't go before God unless your conscience is clear and clean.
Speaker 4:Can I give an answer? Sure, go ahead. Okay, so I look at it this way. I look at it is that the Ark was a typology of christ and the. When noah and his family went in to the ark, they went into christ, and the only way that you are saved is in Christ Jesus. Right, I also see that the water can't save you, hence why all those other people are alive, because and then when it says and God shut them in, I see that it's the Holy Spirit that you are sealed by, because when God closed it, no man could open that door.
Speaker 4:So, that's how I see that.
Speaker 1:I think that you created a very good baseline outline for a good sermon.
Speaker 2:Of course, Jonathan, you being a preacher, you can know that there could be a type of church.
Speaker 1:Sorry, Jerry, say that again.
Speaker 2:There could represent a type of church, of Christ's church, where the saved would be found.
Speaker 1:I don't disagree with that either. Yes, I don't disagree with that either. Listen, I think that the word of God it really does, like Paul says, furnish us with everything that we need. And there are lots of things in the word of God that a lot of people can bring out, like what Meg said, like what she said. I'm gonna tell you what I like, what I love so much about what she said, because this is the kind of thing that comes from looking at the word of God and searching and drawing things from what we see in the Old Testament, especially because I think I really believe this that there is so much to be understood about what we understand in the New Testament by what is conveyed to us in the old, in the old.
Speaker 1:And it's a shame that the Old Testament is ignored so much, because it becomes difficult to explain anything in the New Testament to somebody without them. No, no, no, no, no. You're wrong, and it's like I don't get into any. I no longer in my life, I no longer get involved with anybody having a discussion about Revelation who is not a student of the Old Testament. I just don't, because they are never going to get it, never Now.
Speaker 1:As for this passage in 1 Peter, which is a very important passage, because this is a passage in 1 Peter 3, verses 20 and 21, where many people use this to say see, salvation, you need to be baptized by water in order to be safe. I get that, I get the connection and I get how easy it is to come to this conclusion, but the real answer, as I said at the beginning of the conversation, is, when it comes to salvation, Christ and I don't think anybody here would disagree, jerry included nobody here would disagree what Christ is getting at when he brings us to faith in him is getting to the heart he wants to get to our hearts.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:This is what it is. It's getting to the heart. And so when we see Noah's flood and the ark that was prepared and eight souls that were in it were saved, I believe that what Meg said was a great picture. It's a great picture. I might steal it and draw a sermon out of this, but I won't tell her if I do, I'm just going to steal it. But anyway, let me go on. But then it says eight souls were saved by water, right. Then it says but the like figure where unto even baptism does also now save us. But before I go to that, let me finish the first part, the first part. Eight souls were saved by water. My question is this when it says that these eight souls were saved by water, are we suggesting that all of them and this is a question, and I don't have a trick answer, it is not a trick question. What I want to ask people is when it says that the eight souls were saved by water, are we saying that they were saved with eternal salvation? Anybody, greg? What do you think?
Speaker 6:not enough information, and when it? When it says eight souls, I don't think it's talking about their eternal souls, just means eight people. Eight people were saved from that judgment and I don't think it speaks to their eternal destiny.
Speaker 1:Mark you there, brother.
Speaker 5:Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:The eight souls that were saved by Noah's flood, noah's ark were they saved, eternally eternal salvation by water. Eternally eternal salvation by water.
Speaker 5:I think the word saved there has doesn't always. I think the error sometimes is when we look at a word and we take a universal definition and apply it to cover every time it's used, just like we do with the word all or world in a lot of passages Right. So understanding how the word is used within its context and passage is important. So no, I wouldn't say that it was eternally. Their souls weren't eternally saved because of that, because we know that Noah had already been declared a righteous and holy man, right, and God gave him the command to build the ark, gave him an ordinance or sacrament to build the ark, and that's what he'd done. But he was already declared, god already found him favorable and righteous. So it wasn't the ark that saved those eight, so they were already holy and righteous.
Speaker 1:And they were so, and they were so because of Noah. Yep, now here's what's interesting that you brought up the word part, because the word saved here in 1 Peter is only used twice in the entire Bible. It's only used twice. This is one of the places it's only used twice in the entire Bible. You know so and so you're right. I don't believe. Well, let me ask, jerry, because I know we were going back and forth Jerry, do you believe this is talking about eternal salvation?
Speaker 2:When it's talking about what Noah said. I think Greg hit it right on the head with his answer. Peter is talking about having a clear conscience with God. The only way a person, anyone, can have a clear conscience with God, the only way a person, anyone, can have a clear conscience with God, is when they obey him. Right and show true love and commitment to the Savior Jerry let me tell you something right now.
Speaker 1:I'm tell you right now you're making me mad and if I was with you in person right now, we'd have a fistfight right now. Right now, we'd have a fist fight right now. You know why? Because because this is this, this is where I thought you and me would be at variance most, and I find that, from what you're saying right now, that we're not going to be in that, that position. And I'll tell you the reason why because, as my brother was just saying, I don't believe that this is talking about these eight souls being eternally saved. I don't think that's what it's talking about, but it's talking about simply their preservation that they were able to obtain as a result of their connection to Noah and going through the flood, and they obeyed Noah and blah, blah, blah. So we get that part. But in verse 21, peter says about the flood he goes. But in verse 21, peter says about the flood, he goes.
Speaker 1:The like figure where unto even baptism does also now save us. But here's what he says. He says it's not the baptism that saves us, because he says not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, in other words, not taking the dunk in the water is what he's talking about. It is not the putting away the filth of the flesh, which is the baptism that saves, but the baptism that saves is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's what he is saying. It is not the water that cleanses me, it is the. It is what it symbolizes, because I have. I have the answer of a good conscience toward god by the resurrection of jesus christ. Now I got a friend here that says that, says hi, that says that's not what it means. So, hi, if you want to come up or you want to explain it, tell us in the contents if there's anybody on the panel that disagrees.
Speaker 2:There is a little difference, Jonathan.
Speaker 1:All right, tell me what that is.
Speaker 2:When you think about washing filth off your flesh, you're talking about a bath. You don't think of the terms of an immersion, and so he was talking about that. This is not talking about washing the filth off your flesh. This is totally dealing with your heart and your conscience.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay. So here's what I'll do. Let's put it this way when it comes to the putting away the filth of the flesh, I won't argue that I disagree with that. But I won't argue with that because the reality is what really matters. Here, the nugget, here the morsel to be consumed is the important part, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God. That is the issue.
Speaker 3:Couldn't we see that distinction in that Acts 16, where it's talking about the washing of the wounds and then the baptism?