The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: 70 Weeks of Daniel - INTRO (PART 1 of 5)
Daniel 9 contains a prophecy that has sparked endless debate and shaped much of modern Christian understanding about the end times. But what if our popular interpretations have missed the mark? This episode takes you on an eye-opening journey through the "70 Weeks Prophecy" that birthed concepts like the seven-year tribulation, pre-tribulation rapture, and an earthly millennial kingdom.
We begin by examining the origins of dispensationalism—a theological system developed by John Nelson Darby and popularized through Scofield's Reference Bible in the 1800s. This framework divides biblical history into distinct dispensations and controversially suggests salvation worked differently in each era. Through thoughtful dialogue, we challenge this premise by exploring whether Old Testament believers were saved differently than New Testament Christians.
The heart of our conversation centers on a crucial question: Is Christ's return truly imminent? If dispensational interpretations of Daniel 9 are correct, then numerous prophetic events must occur before Christ can return—making His coming far from imminent. But if these prophecies were fulfilled in Christ's first advent, everything changes. We present a compelling case that nothing in biblical prophecy prevents Jesus from returning tonight.
Perhaps most powerfully, we connect these theological matters to God's sovereign plan of redemption. Could it be that the world continues only until the last of God's elect is brought into His kingdom? This perspective transforms how we understand both biblical prophecy and our daily Christian walk.
Whether you're well-versed in eschatology or just beginning to explore these topics, this episode offers fresh insights that will challenge your thinking and deepen your appreciation for God's redemptive plan across the ages. Listen now and discover why the object of our faith—the Messiah—has always been the same from Genesis to Revelation.
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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going to be in Daniel 9. And Daniel 9 is a chapter in the Bible where we get what is referred to as the prophecy of the 70 weeks, or the 70 weeks prophecy, and this is the chapter that the stories and the perspective on biblical things as it pertains to a future seven-year tribulation, a pre-tribulation rapture, all the Antichrist as a being, all this comes from this chapter, a lot of these things. Now, in the 1800s, we had a couple of guys. One was a teacher, one was a student. The teacher was John Nelson Darby. The teacher was John Nelson Darby, the student was CI Schofield. And so, for those of you who either have or have heard of the Schofield Reference Bible, this is the same Schofield that I'm talking about. That I'm talking about. And these guys, john Darby created, and CI Schofield popularized, a theory of the biblical interpretation, actually a biblical interpretation as a whole, a whole, and it came up with a theological system that has been referred to as dispensationalism, dispensationalism.
Speaker 1:Now, the problem with dispensationalism is that it suggests that there is a different mode or a different process for salvation in each dispensation, a dispensation being an era or a period of time. And so, according to the dispensational perspective, according to the dispensational teaching. We are in the dispensation of grace Of grace. This dispensation would be referred to as the Adamic Era or the Adamic Age, or the Adamic Dispensation. Dispensation means age or era, or age or era, or age or era. That's what dispensation is. So we have the Adamic dispensation, we have the Noahic dispensation, noah we have the Mosaic dispensation, the Abrahamic dispensation, we have the Davidic dispensation, we have the Davidic Dispensation and we have this age of grace. So this is how Dispensationalism breaks out. Now, that being said, in these dispensations, according to dispensationalism itself, it suggests that in each one of these eras or dispensations, salvation was different. So this leaves me. So, in other words, there was a different way of obtaining salvation in each of these eras, in each of these dispensations.
Speaker 1:So my first question to the panel and everybody when I call on you to ask, I'm going to ask you a question, and when I do, keep it short, keep it succinct. And when I do keep it short, keep it succinct. We don't want to take what I call tours around the entire theological system in the universe, but I want to get to the point of what we're talking about. Or does it make sense that there is a different mode by which we are saved in each dispensation or in a different dispensation? In other words, are there multiple ways that people are saved throughout the history of the church or the history of Christianity or biblical religion? My first question I'm going to pose this question first to Jerry. Jerry, you there, all right? Glenn, are you there, brother, all right? So so far you've heard what I've been saying so far.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:So what are your thoughts? There are multiple dispensations, and do you believe that the way of salvation is different in each, and if so, I'm going to need you to explain why and to demonstrate it from the scriptures.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I'm going to start out by giving a testimony, and that's what I believe. You believe what? Here's what I believe. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and hell.
Speaker 1:I know, glenn, I get it.
Speaker 2:It all comes together there, brother.
Speaker 1:It all comes together, Glenn here's what I want to do. Can I be?
Speaker 3:the example for the answer.
Speaker 1:I want you to give me the straight answer. I don't want to get into testimonies or history. My question is simple, very simple. Do you believe in dispensationalism and do you believe that salvation is different in in in different dispensations? Simple as that. That's all I want to deal with. I don't need a backstory on anything else, I just want you to just answer that question.
Speaker 2:Well, I would have to do it before I could be qualified to answer this question. I'd have to be more informed.
Speaker 1:All right, that's fair enough, jerry. Are you there, brother? Yes, sir, dispensationalism Seven different dispensations with seven different ways of being saved in each, one in each. Do you believe that or do you not believe that? And if so or not, why?
Speaker 3:I'm not as acquainted with the seven that you mentioned, but I know, during the mosaical area, the sacrifices for the atonement of sin and for a short period of time.
Speaker 1:OK, my brother William. How are you doing, brother? Are you there? Can you hear me, or are you? Are you there? All right, Light bearer. What about you? People are kind of shy tonight.
Speaker 4:Uh, light bearer, what about you? People are kind of shy tonight. Uh, no, I'm not. Um, I've been, uh, to answer your question. Uh, yes, am I familiar with the different ones? No, yeah, like the mosaic. But I believe that in certain periods of the Bible there there were times where God used certain situations in each time to save people.
Speaker 1:So here's my follow-up question to you on that. So you're saying are you suggesting that there are multiple ways by which men are saved? No, so do you want to re-answer that question again?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I, I I'm getting, I'm getting where you're getting that? Um, I believe that there's one. One way is through jesus, but the way that person gets saved, I believe there's different ways. Like someone can have a near-death experience. That's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay, I'm not talking about what we. I'm not talking about what we as individually, what we experience or whatever. What I'm asking you is here's what I'm getting at when a person is saved. When a person is saved, is it? Are there multiple ways whereby God provides? Does God provide multiple ways for Christians or for people to become saved and become Christian? That's what I'm asking. Is there one way of salvation or are there several?
Speaker 4:There's one way of salvation, and what is that? One way Through Jesus Christ, okay.
Speaker 1:Now Ray Robinson. Is that right? I don't know if I got that right. I can't see the whole name. Yes, sir.
Speaker 4:Brother Jonathan, you're teaching me patience tonight. Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:All right, mr Robinson, let me ask you something. Are there more ways, are there multiple ways of salvation?
Speaker 6:Or is there just one? I don't want to beat around the bush with different scriptures, so the short answer is yes, there is one way to salvation. Okay, and what is that way? Jesus Christ, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, ben, are you there? Ben, I can't let Mick say it yet.
Speaker 5:There is only one way to end life Jesus Christ. John 14, 6 through 9. All right, brother, I have to say.
Speaker 1:All right, sister Meg.
Speaker 6:It has from Genesis to Revelations. We have always been saved by grace, through faith. That's what I believe.
Speaker 1:And this is what I was looking to hear Always saved by grace, through faith. Now, what does that imply, jerry? What does that imply when it comes to Christians or believers who were saved under the old covenant versus believers who were saved under the new, under the old covenant versus believers who were saved under the new that involves the grace will cover that whole period of time.
Speaker 3:Through faith, those that live by faith, god will grant them that saving grace.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you a question. So are you saying that salvation for the New Testament Christian is the same as it was for the Old Testament Christian?
Speaker 3:Not in terms of what was asked of them?
Speaker 1:That's not what I'm asking. I'm just asking what salvation? Was the mode of salvation the same For for Old Testament Christians or believers, as well as new Testament believers?
Speaker 3:Was it the same? I don't know how to answer that question because the, the um, I don't want to use the what you said, dispensationalism, yeah, but, but but forget about that. I'm looking at it. How God dealt with them in the first covenant is different from the second covenant. How so the way he dealt with the Jews were in a more physical type law, even though their heart may not have been and David, all these people of the Old Testament, were they saved in a different way than we?
Speaker 3:are today were they saved in a different way?
Speaker 1:How were they saved? Was it the same as we are today, or was it different?
Speaker 3:Well, abraham, it was accounted under righteousness because he believed God, he obeyed God. How were you saved? So, when I say Abraham, isaac and Jacob, these were men. And David, these were men that kept the faith and followed God.
Speaker 1:But here's what I'm asking, brother I'm going to stick with you until I get there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have to go with my perspective of how I view the story, the whole story.
Speaker 3:OK so what is it? So they were saved, different than we are today? They were not. For instance, I hear people mention a lot about the thief on the cross. Well, the Lord hadn't established his heavenly kingdom yet on earth and he was in the Gospels. It reveals that he chose 12 men to take the gospel to the rest of the world. He commissioned them, he gave them keys. So those keys that they use in the new covenant was different than what was required on the old covenant, Because she got symbolic salvation for the Jews going through the Red Sea, things like that. That's what I'm looking at.
Speaker 1:All right, so let me come to you, my friend, mr Ben Ben Cannon. I believe it is what's your perspective brother, same question Were Old Testament Christians saved the same way we are or were they saved differently and if so, how?
Speaker 5:Your answer lies in Hebrews. They were justified by the faith that they had and the belief in the Father to begin with. It's answered in Hebrews. If you go and you read about it. It's by the faith by which they did it and it tells how they were justified by the faith and the works that they did added on to it if you actually read everything in context to it. But yes, they were saved by the faith of the belief in the Father alone at that point, because that's what faith is in eternal life. At that point.
Speaker 1:So let me ask this again to you, Brother Ben Were they saved the same way we are saved?
Speaker 5:By the Lamb's blood at that old covenant. Under which point are you discussing? Because it's the same blood, Christian listen here.
Speaker 1:I'm not asking trick questions. These are not trick questions. People are saved. We know that there are those who are condemned. I'm asking a very simple question and the thing is, if I can't get an answer for this, then how do you give an answer to the unbeliever?
Speaker 5:Yes, they're saved by the faith. Yes, all right. Yes, how do you give an answer to the unbeliever? Yes, to say by the faith, yes, in the Father to begin with. All right, yes, there we go To say by the faith of believing in the Father to begin with. If you know who the Father is from the whole get-go, then it's the whole faith. So, under the thing, if you realize who it is that died on that cross and who he proclaimed to be, then by the faith of who it is and what he said and every word that he had, it's the same Father. That's what I'm going to say. It's the same blood. The whole thing, that whole thing in the whole Bible, is the same thing. In a way, they're saved and justified by their faith.
Speaker 1:We're going in a certain direction now. So is there anybody who was saved? And I'm asking this question now to Flavio and then I'm gonna go to Meg. So my question is this is there anybody who is saved who was not justified by faith? Flavio.
Speaker 7:Impossible no.
Speaker 1:All right, see, I like that kind of answer, meg. What's your answer?
Speaker 6:Absolutely not. Hebrews chapter 11 says it all Amen.
Speaker 1:Brother Lightbearer, what do you think?
Speaker 4:Same. Thing.
Speaker 1:Impossible, jerry, your thoughts.
Speaker 3:I agree with what Flavio just said.
Speaker 1:Alright, so that suggests to me that at least there's a little bit of a consensus here that salvation is justification by faith. And so, and the idea is that if that is a requirement for salvation to be justified by faith, and if that justification by faith is what saves all of us, then I'm going to ask the question again Is there a difference between how Old Testament Christians came to faith versus New Testament believers?
Speaker 5:Probably not.
Speaker 1:Flavio, what do you think?
Speaker 7:I think there is a nuance, but in its context no.
Speaker 1:So what's the nuance?
Speaker 7:Because we are living on the other side of the cross already, where that of what Jesus done is solidified in history, where the people in the old covenant were living off a hope of the Messiah's coming. That's what the whole prophets and moses were preaching about, so something that has not happened yet, but they've placed their faith in that the god will be faithful and the promise he made to his people.
Speaker 1:so okay there's that little ones so let's keep that going on for a second. So if you read, if you read isaiah 53 which I'm sure you, yeah, if you read, is 53, what is the difference in what they would have understood versus what we understood today?
Speaker 7:That's a trick question I would say to the prophets. They would have understood the exact same way. I think the nation of Israel would have seen like had very different views. Obviously, as we know, the Sadducees and Pharisees, but Israel as a whole had such a different view of what the prophets seen.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about the believers under the old covenant. I'm not talking about the Pharisees and Sadducees. I'm talking about the believers. I'm talking about Abrahams, davids, isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel. What I'm saying is here's the thing Faith is what saves. We're saved by grace through faith. Right, everybody agrees with that. But what is, or who is, the object of our faith, old covenant or new? The Messiah, amen, it's the Messiah.
Speaker 1:So I like when you use the word nuance, because the nuance here I agree with you, there is a nuance, but I believe that the nuance has to do with which side of the cross you're on. Yeah, all right, would that be fair? Of course, all right, all right, I see that, okay. So now, that being said, as we go into Daniel, I talked about these dispensations. I talked about these dispensations and much of dispensational eschatology is based on how you interpret Daniel 9, verses 24 through 27.
Speaker 1:I am a pain sometimes in my own rear end, because this subject is supremely important to me, and I'm going to tell you the reason why because I do not believe with I do not believe dispensational eschatology, that I don't believe that Daniel 9 has anything to do with eschatology for the Christian today, because that would imply there's something left to be done prior to Christ returning. So my next question for everybody here is this Is the return of Jesus Christ imminent, or is there something on the so-called prophetical calendar that we can look to in the Bible and say we know he cannot come until these things happen first? So my question is going to be this. I'm going to ask a couple of people Is his return imminent or is it not?
Speaker 6:Dr Ray. Mr Ray, what do you say? Actually, that's a great, great question. My answer would have to be if we look through the scriptures sometimes you know that God has the power to change his mind. In terms, if you look at the Old Testament, you see that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a perpetual covenant between him and the people of Israel. Right? But then we see that that was a shadow of things to come Right. But then we see that that was a shadow of things to come Right. And we are now under a new covenant which is Christ, the spirit of Christ. So things have changed from the old covenant to the new covenant, where we are no longer under the old covenant. So if we just want to have it set in stone that we have to. Things must happen before Christ comes. God has the power and the right to change his mind, to say you know what? I'm going to change my mind to removing that these things must happen before the, the fire, come to coming right now so.
Speaker 1:But so let me ask you a question. Let me because so in, and not to be pushing you in different direction, please, anybody, if you, if you got noise in the background, please, all right now. So here's my question, brother. Mr Ray, I'm going to ask you again In your mind, based on your understanding of the word of God, do you believe there is anything that prohibits, based on biblical prophecy or whatever, do you believe there's anything that prohibits the imminent return of Christ?
Speaker 6:No.
Speaker 1:All right, ben, are you there, brother?
Speaker 5:Yes, and the answer to your question is imminent, because the Father knows when he's coming back. It's imminent.
Speaker 1:Right, but in your mind is there anything that needs to happen first, before he comes?
Speaker 5:as of today. No, it's imminent upon his own whenever he's come to Tim and we don't all right, jerry, what do you think?
Speaker 3:brother, you know the way you ask questions it depends on the way you hear it. So, in the frame mind of what we studied last night, I'm pretty sure you're pointing to eminent but hold on, I'm asking what you think I'm coming. I'm just reminding of the scripture about until the last Gentile comes in, or something to that reverence, and then he'll return. His return is imminent, obviously, the Father's coming.
Speaker 1:But, Brother Jerry, here's the thing To a lot of people it's not imminent.
Speaker 3:I don't believe in all that other kingdom establishment and all that kind of stuff. Jesus is coming back one time. That's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:But I mean. So let me lay a little bit more groundwork, okay, because I'm introducing the interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel. So this is groundwork. So what I'm getting at is this the way dispensationalism, the way dispensationalism interprets Daniel 9, there's a lot of things left that we can be sure that Christ is not returning until these things happen.
Speaker 1:For example, there are many Christians who believe that there has to be a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe that, all right, so stick with me here for a second, jerry. So that's one thing, and I don't believe it either. Here's the other thing they believe that this seven year I mean that this pre-tribulation rapture follows is followed by a seven year period of tribulation, which also means that, if that is the truth, christ's return is not imminent. Here's another thing they believe that there's got to be, during this tribulation, 144,000 super Jews who are going to be running around saving people without the gospel or the Holy Spirit. That means the return of Christ cannot be imminent. They also say that at the end of the tribulation period it ushers in the millennial reign that has been described and interpreted by dispensationalism as being something that is earthly, even though Christ said his kingdom would not be of this world. But this is what they say, and they say that this follows the seven-year tribulation, which also means that there's, if you take that literally, like the dispensationalists do, the 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years, which means that if the rapture took place today according to their system, if the rapture took place today according to their system, if the rapture took place today, there is, at least under their system of theology, in terms of future things, there's 1,007 years before Christ returns, which means his return is not imminent.
Speaker 1:So my point is this what I'm asking is this when we talk about his imminent return, that means there is nothing else that need be fulfilled To Prevent His coming. He could come Tonight If his return. He could come tonight if his return is imminent, which is, by the way. So I'm not holding any secrets. I do not believe that there's anything that precedes our Lord's return. I believe he can return tonight. There's nothing left that needs to be fulfilled. There's no Old Testament scripture that needs to be fulfilled to precede the coming of our Lord. So that's my official position, but as I want to go through these passages and these scriptures and this subject, I want to try.
Speaker 1:I want to solicit your generous ears to converse with me on this issue and see if I got it right or if I got it wrong. Now, Meg, I'm asking you now the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and when I say return, I mean to return to end it all, Not some secret rapture, whatever it may be. Is the return of Christ imminent? Absolutely Flavio. What do you think?
Speaker 7:Flavio, what do you think? If I'm going to be honest, I can't ground. I can't ground myself scripturally, at least to my understanding. Now To really say a point I don't like to give opinions If I don't have Bible to back it up.
Speaker 1:Man, I'm telling you what brother we got to have more people like you and my brother Lightbur up there, because there's nothing, there's nothing more heartwarming than when people just say I can't back that up yet. And I'm always appreciative of folks like you. Guys like that say that because because I try to be that person as well and I understand what it's like to be wrong, and it's humiliating when you find out you've been wrong for a long time, like I experienced early on in my Christian life. So I appreciate you, flavio, for that. I really do, brother, I really do. We need more people like that. And so now, jerry, let me ask you again what's your thoughts, eminent or not? I know we talked about it, but I want to say it again. I want to ask you again I need your help.
Speaker 3:Are you familiar with the scripture that I'm talking about? To the Gentiles we gathered in?
Speaker 1:I have an idea what you're talking about. Yeah, I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so to me there's a timetable. Only the father knows, right? That's what I was thinking when the last Gentile come in Boom, what I was thinking when the last Gentile come in boom. But the ideology that you're talking about here, about the imminent, is firm, fixed in my mind.
Speaker 1:Got it. So let me add something to that, jerry, because I think that that is a very, very good statement, and I'm going to tell you the reason why Because the Christ's return is imminent. It is imminent. This is what I believe and, ben, I'm going to come back, and I'm going to come back to you next.
Speaker 1:So here's the thing we, I believe that God has a chosen elect people. There is a finite, excuse me, there is a finite number of believers that God, the Father, gave to his son to come to earth to redeem A finite number of people. It's a fixed number. I don't know if it's 2 billion, 10 billion, 30 billion. I don't know what the number is Depends on how long Earth Day goes on. But he doesn't tell us who his elect people are. We are responsible to know where we stand in relationship to the father, to the son and to the Holy Spirit. I'm sure all of us agree Now, that being said, since we don't know the number and the individuals, we don't know, but God knows.
Speaker 1:So I agree with you, jerry, in this regard, that the world will continue as it is until God brings in that last of his elect individuals to be saved. He will bring that so. So, if there's anything, that, in other words, the reason why his return hasn't happened yet is because all of his people have not been brought into the sheepfold yet, and this is what I think. Does anybody disagree? And if so, why? I'll start with you, ben.
Speaker 5:That was exactly the question I was going to ask you. Has all of his sheep been counted and counted before him yet? And those whom he called? Have they all heard his voice yet? The last trade that he went and tried to get, has it been called? Because only when all those are gathered back into has the word that you should cheap-vote where he is.