The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: 70 Weeks of Daniel - Reconciliation for Iniquity (PART 2 of 3)
The profound mystery of God's sovereignty stands at the heart of this theological exploration. When His word goes forth, it accomplishes exactly what He intends—sometimes bringing salvation, other times hardening hearts for judgment. As one participant powerfully states, "God is sovereign, and when his word goes out, it either softens or hardens, and whichever it does is exactly what he intended it to do."
We tackle the challenging question of God's fairness, examining what true divine justice would look like without grace. If God were purely "fair" by human standards, Adam and Eve would have been "dusted in the garden," and humanity's story would have ended right there. This realization helps us understand that questioning God's fairness often means placing ourselves as judge over Him—essentially repeating the original sin of determining good and evil through our own eyes.
The conversation moves to Daniel's seventy-weeks prophecy, particularly focusing on what it means to "make an end of sins." Though people clearly continue to sin daily, Christ's death on the cross ended sin's power and penalty for believers. What makes His crucifixion unlike any other was not just His sinless nature or voluntary sacrifice, but His divine identity. "If Christ was not deity, His death would have been no different than anyone else's." The marks of His sacrifice remain on His glorified body as eternal testimony to the price paid for our redemption.
Join us for this thought-provoking discussion that will challenge you to reconsider how you view God's justice, sovereignty, and the magnificent mystery of salvation through Christ. How does understanding God's absolute holiness change your perspective on His grace toward you?
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goes out and falls upon deaf ears. What do we say about that, mitch? What do you say about that brother?
Speaker 2:Well, if it goes out and fall upon deaf ears? The Bible said the gospel is here to those that are lost. So I mean it's not for everyone to receive of Christ.
Speaker 1:But would you say that if it falls on deaf ears that it still accomplished what was intended? Yes, Interesting, Greg. What do you think you agree with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's right. I was just talking with somebody about this today. In Hebrews, it quotes that it says my word shall not return void, it shall accomplish the purpose for which I sent it. And he says sometimes, you know, just like the rain falls on the ground, and sometimes it brings forth thorns and briars which are fit to be burned, and other times it brings forth fruit, right, right. And so those are the two purposes. Sometimes god's intention is to to bring forth the thorns and briars, the fit to be burned, the vessels prepared for destruction. So sometimes the word goes forth with the intention to be a method of judgment, of hardening to those people, and sometimes it goes forth to be an instrument of regeneration and salvation for those to whom it's intended. So either way, it accomplishes its purpose.
Speaker 1:Candy girl. Are you there, sister Candy girl, are you there? Sister Candy girl, are you there?
Speaker 6:Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 1:Did you hear the last things we were talking about, about the Lord's word returning to him void? Yes, do you agree with what the last two gentlemen said? Yes, do you agree with what the last two gentlemen said? Yes, lisa, do you agree with that, of course. Are you sure that doesn't sound unfair to you?
Speaker 7:God is sovereign. Who are we to question?
Speaker 1:him. I tried to keep a straight face, but yeah, I agree with that. I agree with what Mitch said and what Greg said. I agree with that. I agree with what Mitch said and what Greg said. I agree with it 100 percent, see, because the thing is, the thing is, god is sovereign and when his word goes out, it does one of two things it either softens or it hardens, and whichever one it does, for each individual, is exactly what he intended it to do, and there's no accidents, there's no happenstance, and God is not waiting with bated breath, going like.
Speaker 6:I wonder if this person is going to choose me or not. A good example of, like his word, hardening right. I can think of a couple things One would be Pharaoh, one would be Elijah and the Bears Right, I mean, there's a lot of things that his plan and his purpose will happen regardless of anything, because he's God, he's sovereign.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Anybody else got any comments on that before we move on.
Speaker 5:Well, that is why we have Romans 9. I mean, the great apologist of all time. You know, outside of Jesus, the Apostle Paul of all time, you know, outside of Jesus, the apostle Paul, you can I mean you can just hear him talking through the book of Romans how he's had this conversation a billion times with people. And he comes right up to that question right there about, like you said, brother Jonathan. Well, people's going to holler Well, this ain't fair. And he says well, why? Why does God still find fault? And he doesn't answer the question like we would answer it. He just says we question God. That's not our place.
Speaker 1:Let me, so let me, before I get into the second point of what is, or the second, yeah, the second point of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, I want to ask everybody a question On this issue of fairness. Do you see any scenario where it could be construed that God is not fair, Lisa? Can God be unfair?
Speaker 7:No, I will say this, jonathan, as a new believer. This stuff was hard for me to hear. So it was. And if you think about it, god's sovereignty is hard to take because his ways are higher than our ways. You know, we, we, can't think the same, but I, as I've grown in my walk, I don't question his decision, no matter what may come. It's his will and I'm good with that. He knows, with that. He knows.
Speaker 1:So, brian, let me ask you a question. When we hear people say that, when we talk about God being a sovereign God, and when we hear the naysayers say that God is unfair, what do you think they mean? What do people mean and I'm not even talking about unbelievers, because I usually hear Christians saying to me that it would be unfair for God, for instance, to condemn anyone to hell for eternity. That's just unfair. So what is the basis, brian, what is the basis for the assertion by these folks that God is unfair From the human perspective? What do we mean? What do people mean when they say God is unfair from their, from the human perspective? What do what do we mean? What do people mean when they say God is unfair?
Speaker 5:Well, it's funny. You asked that. I actually have had this conversation with, actually, a bunch of pastors who actually made that argument to me, and you know they make the claim I can't worship a God like that. It's not fair. But this is what is actually happening and, just like Lisa said, we've all done this, especially when we're young in our faith.
Speaker 5:But what we don't realize, what we're doing for one to answer your question, Jonathan we're making the judgment. We are actually putting ourselves up above God and saying what we think is right or wrong. What we're doing is we're actually going all the way back to the garden. We took that fruit of that tree and we're judging what's good and evil through our eyes, instead of letting God be the voice of what's right and wrong. We don't like being up underneath that and ever since then, that nature is in each one of us, so we judge that way, and it's from the time we've grown up, but even after we get saved. That's what I mean by these traditions that we're having to lay down each and every day. Yeah, he's God. There's a lot of things I don't have an answer for. He's God.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, brother. You know to think about. It is Brian and everybody you know. The thing is, we have a tendency to frustrate the simplicity in Christ. This is what we do. So my next question I'm going to ask you, meg, is this If God were fair in the purest sense, what would that look like for God to exact absolute fairness? What does that look like, meg?
Speaker 6:Wow, absolute fairness, if I'm thinking about it properly.
Speaker 1:Not from the standpoint of man. If God were to be fair, he would Like so many people argue that he is. But if he were to be fair, what does that look like?
Speaker 6:If he were to be fair, the best example I could use is Adam and Eve would have been dusted in the garden.
Speaker 1:And what would that have meant for all of mankind? It would have been over. And what would that have meant for all of mankind.
Speaker 6:It would have been over Like if God was fair, he wouldn't have put cherubim in that tree, he would have allowed them to go eat from the fruit of life and completely be utterly separated from him for eternity. If he was absolutely fair, why? Because they got what they deserved. A just God. If he, if he was completely and utterly, he would have let people go to their own ways and they would have. He would have if. If he was completely just straight across, because we are talking about a holy god who the standard of his godliness is perfection. That is the standard, right.
Speaker 1:There's nothing else right and and, and. I agree with you. And well, before I go on, does anybody disagree with what Meg is saying? Is there anything left out of what she just said? Yeah, I disagree with it. Ok, so what do you disagree with? What's your? So what would you say about God's fairness? I had a feeling you would Mitch, but go ahead. I had a feeling you would Mitch but go ahead.
Speaker 1:The reason I disagree because what has think you know fairness better than God? To give you an analogy of what you think a holy God would do, it's a fallacy.
Speaker 6:But what we're talking about is from the perspective of man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not from perspective of God, yeah, from God's perspective. From the perspective of man, if God were to be absolutely fair, You're saying he would do what or not do what.
Speaker 2:I would say I see he, he as a man, he do exactly what he does, because even which is what?
Speaker 1:Which is what, though, if he's fair?
Speaker 2:Well, whatever action he has already done is fair. And I say that because even as men, women, even to give, we have to be careful what we speak. You know when we're talking about the living God, even though we draw an analogy of what we think and we're not OK, I don't believe that, but you know, if you ask me as a person, what I think is blah, blah, blah. We have to be careful how we talk concerning the master God.
Speaker 1:So that's why I say put it to you this way. Let me put it this way You're safe, you're a safe guy. So let me put it to you this way If God were to be absolutely just and was to exact absolute justice, then what would you say?
Speaker 2:I'll say the same thing.
Speaker 1:Which is what?
Speaker 2:Whatever is just is what it is.
Speaker 1:That doesn't make any sense though, Mitch.
Speaker 2:What I'm saying is what he has decided, what has been, what is going to be is just for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what that suggests is that—.
Speaker 6:There would never be existence.
Speaker 1:if that was the case, Well see, what it also does is suggest arbitrariness on the part of God. God is not an arbitrary God, so God does things and from his perspective is it is motivated from his nature. So if you take away grace, all there is left is justice. So my question is what does his justice look like? Absent grace?
Speaker 2:Mitch, I still stand on what I said it up. I'm not gonna know so so he doesn't.
Speaker 1:So if God does not, if God does not offering grace, if God is not offering pardons or forgiveness, if he's not offering that, what does he do with mankind?
Speaker 2:well, well, I mean like she, like Megan said, I mean we wouldn't exist. That's the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we would all be condemned. We would all be condemned. I don't think this is Again, I don't think it's, I don't think it's difficult. I really, I really don't and it's not.
Speaker 2:But I would say, you know, just like you just did, you posed the question in a manner that I can agree with. Before I couldn't speak in that manner because the way the question was posed to make an analogy as to what God would do, you know, with his righteousness or non-righteousness, would do with his righteousness or non-righteousness. But when you pose it the way you did, in that form of a question, I can say then well, if that's the case, then we would not exist.
Speaker 1:I can see that, because here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. And so, when you look at it because the first thing I asked Brian was was from man's perspective, if God were to be fair for man's perspective, what does that look like? And what? And what I was getting at there is this, and we, and we got there. But what I was getting, where I was going, was this man's perspective about fairness is that whatever happens to one should happen to all across the board.
Speaker 1:Fairness means that whatever you do to one I used to be a union worker and if you've been part of a union and you know how unions work, you understand that it's all about fairness. Unions are all about fair. Whatever you do to one, you do to all. So unions are all about fair. Whatever you do to one, you do to all. And once you, once you, once there is inequity in what is considered fair, then lawsuits fly and this kind of thing.
Speaker 1:So and so what I'm saying is that when it for God to be fair, if God were to be fair on man's standards, at the end of the day we would all be left in a state of perpetual condemnation. That is what would be fair to us and so it's not an issue. It's not an issue of what God would do, even though we know what he would do, but we have to look at ourselves and ask ourselves what we deserve, and then the question becomes easy to answer If God is fair, I know what I have done and I know that what I have done, I know what it requires he must do because, as I think Meg said earlier, because God is holy. So if we have a problem understanding what we deserve, we're gonna have a problem understanding god's fairness or his justice, because it starts by looking at ourselves.
Speaker 6:Does anybody disagree no, and in fact, it makes you feel. When you think about the sovereignty of god, when you think about the sovereignty of God, when you think about these things, it makes you feel very, very small.
Speaker 1:Which is how we, which is how we should feel. I think we should see ourselves.
Speaker 6:That's, that's the reverence for him, right In his holiness.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Wow. Now somebody, somebody mentioned, somebody mentioned God's holiness. I think that was you, meg but one of the things that I really believe is missing in much of Christian dialogue is holiness whether it has to do with us, but especially having to do with God. You know, certain things that we have come to know In the word of God. We have abandoned certain descriptives that even Christians don't like mentioning. We don't like talking about sin, we don't like talking about sin, we don't like talking about holiness, we don't like talking about wrath, you know. And so there's a lot of things like this that we talk about, but the Bible talks about adhering to these old paths, those are not true Christians.
Speaker 1:I agree with you, brother. I totally agree with you.
Speaker 6:But, like, when you hear these verses, right so, people use their flesh to try and under or their carnal mind in some states, to try to understand scripture. But when, like, you'll hear people say, when you hear the verse ye be holy, as your father is holy, right, right. So they're like oh, I got to be holy, I have. Ye be holy as your father is holy, right, right. So they're like oh, I gotta be holy, I, I have to be holy, it's me that has to be holy, because god is holy, absolutely not right, it is, it is you are holy because he is holy in you, right, it has nothing to do with you. And once people start to remove themselves from the equation, then people will start to see Right.
Speaker 1:Interesting, very good. So now I'm actually going to make it to the next point of Daniel 9, the things that are to be fulfilled in the 70-week prophecy of Daniel. So we just got through covering, finishing the transgression. I think that the case is made, but, however, whether it is or not, for certain people that's okay. Well, my hope is that it causes you, if you're still not sold on this, to at least consider it, to think about it, to marinate on it. That takes me to the next point. The next thing that it says that was going to be accomplished in the 70-week prophecy of Daniel is to make an end of sins is to make an end of sins. So my question is can anybody here show or give a biblical proof for how this has been fulfilled and when to make an end of sins? Has that happened or has it not happened Anybody?
Speaker 5:It's already happened.
Speaker 1:It's already happened. You got any idea how?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean my Bible says to atone for iniquity and I mean that's the cross.
Speaker 8:That's exactly what you did.
Speaker 5:Y'all just got done talking about the perfect holiness of God. There was a debt that needed to be paid and there was only one that could pay it that atonement. That's why this is so important, if you think that there's some of this stuff that's happening in the future. What did we just read? We only had it come one time. Come on, is he coming twice To atone again? What Right?
Speaker 1:So, greg, what do you think, brother, what do you say? Has the end of sins been made?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like it says, like you addressed it earlier in hebrews 9 right, but you know the argument from the other side will be well, people still sin though, so there can't be an end of sin. So what would you say to that?
Speaker 1:good question. I have an answer. Anybody else want to give a shot?
Speaker 7:give an answer to that he doesn't see our sin because we're made righteous by the blood of jesus. We are covered in his blood, so he no longer sees our sin I don't think people are ready to hear that.
Speaker 3:It's too deep unbelievers still sin too. What's?
Speaker 4:that he's their sin sin too.
Speaker 3:What's that? He's their sin. He's who's saying. I said it's not only believers who's who sin. Unbelievers sin as well, and so so he still sees their sin he does.
Speaker 6:There's that in their sins right, so so.
Speaker 3:So, therefore, like, and again, I'm just being like, you know, I'm just arguing the others I'm just arguing the antith, I'm just arguing the answer. So, therefore, how can you say that there's been an end to sin when people still continue in sin?
Speaker 1:Believers or unbelievers. Candy. You have an answer to that question.
Speaker 7:He died for his people.
Speaker 1:But I think, but see when it talks about.
Speaker 8:Did you ask me if I had an answer?
Speaker 1:No, I was asking Sandy Girl. Sandy Girl, you there?
Speaker 5:Give me just a minute. All right, I'm looking, I got it somewhere, I think the christ has an end.
Speaker 1:According to daniel's prophecy, daniel 9, has there been an end of sins, but it seems like we need to address what end of sins means. What does it mean? To make an end of sins means, what does?
Speaker 7:it mean to make an end of sins. Anybody the sin of his people has ended.
Speaker 1:And it ends in what regard?
Speaker 7:Pardon me, Go ahead bro.
Speaker 5:It was all I was going to say. It's the power of sin.
Speaker 1:Right If the power of sin is removed, if the end of sins is made, because I think I know where Greg is going with this and I think a few people in the comments have already answered it and, greg, I'm going to try to give it a shot. You tell me if you think I covered it and if not, let me know what I'm missing. But I think that the end of sins means that the penalty of sin has been removed for those who believe the penal retribution due unto sin is what Christ put away. Did I cover it, greg? Or did I cover it, or did I miss something?
Speaker 3:I didn't have a particular response. I was wanting to hear I just, you know, I was just curious like how you would address it. You know, I I'm not even sure I know how I would say it, but I don't disagree with you, that's fair.
Speaker 1:So here's the thing.
Speaker 5:I think the word actually says he put sin to the eye on alignment on the cross.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so he ended it on the cross.
Speaker 4:Yeah, when Jesus died.
Speaker 1:When Jesus died, he put an end to sins for those who believe.
Speaker 8:The question is do you believe it? That is the question for believers, for Christians.
Speaker 6:Do you believe that Absolutely, or is there something you need to do? No, well, I think that Right, absolutely, or is?
Speaker 4:there something you need to do now? Ok, leave it.
Speaker 5:Well, I think that I mean. That covered it, Brother Jonathan, but that's why he tells us to pick up your cross and follow me.
Speaker 1:That's right All day. But you know, and that's the thing, because that is, that is the aspect of our salvation that requires us to give good attention to our vigilance in the faith and to endurance in the faith. And so, and resurrecting, but leaving our sin in that tomb means that now we can stand before God, stand before the Father, reconciled and justified, because there is no longer any wrath, because Christ, being our substitute, endured the wrath of the sin that was due to us. He took upon himself. This, in a nutshell, is the gospel Christ, our substitute. That is the gospel. Amen. He is our substitute.
Speaker 1:He went in my place and here's a crazy thing we are expected to celebrate his death. Imagine that If somebody you knew Died, you would look like a crazy person If you went to the funeral celebrating. But yet, when it comes to Christ, this is something that we spiritually Celebrate Daily. He died for me, he resurrected for me, he lives for me, he advocates, he intercedes for me, he sent his Holy Spirit for me, he built mansions in his house for me. He built mansions in his house for me, and you Does, anybody?
Speaker 7:agree, that's so beautiful, that's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, you know. Go ahead, brian, sorry brother, go ahead.
Speaker 5:No, I was just going to say I mean it's the cross. I mean we've heard it said a billion times that it was the greatest injustice that the world has ever known and at the exact same moment we had the greatest blessing and gift that the world has ever known also. It's hard to even wrap your mind around that.
Speaker 6:I mean it's hard to wrap your mind around that it pleased the father to bruise the son.
Speaker 8:That is hard to wrap your mind around.
Speaker 1:It really is. Let me ask you, let me ask everybody, a question before I, before I finish here on making an end of sins so what makes the death of Christ on the cross more unique than the death of others who died the very same death on the cross? Why was his death on the cross different?
Speaker 6:Because no one took his life. He laid his life down.
Speaker 1:That's one thing. What else can we say about?
Speaker 5:that he died quicker. He never broke any law. He never broke any law.
Speaker 8:He was without sin.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he never broke any law.
Speaker 8:It says he never knew sin, the word of God says he who knew no sin became sin, that we might have his righteousness.
Speaker 1:All right, what else? Anybody else? Lisa, what were you saying?
Speaker 7:I was just going to say. The weight of the sin he took upon himself was so much that he died so much quicker than everyone else, and without them having to break his bones to do it right.
Speaker 1:See, I think that I think that what we're talking about here is that it was the quality of his person that made his death unique, because he was a son of god. And you know, it's funny because when we have conversations I'm sure every one of us here has had conversations with others who deny the deity of Christ. If Christ was not deity, if he was not divine, if he was not God, the son, his death would have been on the cross, would have been no different than anyone else's.
Speaker 8:You know what else, brother Jonathan? What's that? This is super deep. But when, when Jesus came back in his body and he appeared to Thomas and Thomas was doubting, what did he say to Thomas? He says, thomas, take your hands and put them through my hands. Take your hands and put them to my side Right, I honestly believe that those marks are going to be with him for eternity. That is how big the price was.
Speaker 1:Well, we know that. We know that for a fact Because his body that he raised in that was his glorified body.
Speaker 8:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, adventure. How are you doing Adventure?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's out, it's adventure. Great, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing all right, brother. Thanks for coming up here. Sorry I didn't get to you sooner. I didn't get to you sooner.
Speaker 4:Oh no, no worries. We have to be careful with when you talk about sin, because in 1 John it says if you say you have no sin, you lie and tell not the truth. But if we confess our sins, he's just unable to forgive us of our sins, because as humans we still have a sin, nature Right, but we overcome. That's why Paul says mortify the deeds in your flesh.